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View Full Version : 5 trades to palooka-ville


baggio202
06-27-2002, 03:07 AM
kenny williams has made 5 trades that has taken us from a 95 win team with what hawk harrelson used to say would become a dynasty back in '00 to a sub .500 baseball team with a mediocre future when you look at our farm system...he killed the golden goose with these moves..ill rank them in what i feel is order of importance

1. wells, lowe and fogg for ritchie....this trade to me was the death blow...the one that sent us over the abyss...when this trade was made many of us were afraid that trading 3 healthy arms for 1 was moronic with all the injuries we suffered to our staff the year before...and those fears look justified...ritchie is now 4-10 with a 5.40 era and the primary reason we are below 500...he is 6 games under himself on a teams that 4 under..while ritchie was in the process of losing his 10 game and the most important game of the year to date for the sox kip wells won his 9th tonight...wells (9 - 4 - 3.09) fogg (7 - 6 - 3.87) and lowe (2 -2 -6.29) are a combined 18-12 on a teams thats 34-42...those three have over half the pirate victories...

2. bradford for olivo...chad bradford has taken over the set up role in oakland...he is 3-2 with a 1.88 era..in 38.1 ip he has 30k's ,only 4 walks and a WHIP of less than 1.00..think about what he could do as our closer now that kieth is all foulked up???..in the meantime olivo has yet to progress past AA ball...

3. baldwin for masaoka/majewski/berry-barry...baldwin is being james baldwin this year...6-6 with a 4.65 era...on pace for about 13 wins which is what he always gave us...masaoka was the guy kenny was raving about at sox fest when someone asked him about trading baldwin...we were "gonna love this guy"..well he was released in ST with an era of 40.40..kenny williams response.."we didnt like his curveball"...majewski- he is toiling away in the bullpen in birmingham...barry -berry had his contract sold to japan...atleast we recouped some of the money we sent over to the dodgers in this deal...

4. perry for lee....herbert perry has 9 homers , 37 rbi , 291 average in only 182 at bats...now that he is the everyday 3rd baseman it looks like he will, barring injury , put up career power numbers..meanwhile lee is gonna be 27 and while he has pitched well in charlotte if he cant crack our bullpen this year i doubt he ever will..

5. myette for clayton...this trade isnt so bad on its merits...royce was our SS for 2 years and myette struggled last year..this year he spent most of it in the minors..he did make his first start of the year tonight and went 5 strong innings giving up 2 runs on 4 hits and 4 k's...but what makes this trade horrible is it led to the herbert perry trade..if we didnt have clayton, valentin is our everyday SS and there is no need to move perry..so those 9 homers and 37 rbi would be helping the sox and not texas...

the only trade that i can see thats really panned out for KW is the osuna trade...gurrier for marte looks good so far...eyre for glover is a wash..same with abbott for ramirez ...sirotka for wells..am i missing any....this is not a pretty picture

fans wonder why we arnt as good as '00...look at those 5 trades...we arnt the same team as '00...it was a more talented, more experienced team

DrCrawdad
06-27-2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
kenny williams has made 5 trades that has taken us from a 95 win team with what hawk harrelson used to say would become a dynasty back in '00 to a sub .500 baseball team with a mediocre future when you look at our farm system...he killed the golden goose with these moves..ill rank them in what i feel is order of importance

wells, lowe and fogg for ritchie....this trade to me was the death blow...the one that sent us over the abyss...when this trade was made many of us were afraid that trading 3 healthy arms for 1 was moronic with all the injuries we suffered to our staff the year before...and those fears look justified...

For a long time I tried to stay with KW on this trade. I just hoped that KW’s defense of the deal was right. At that time Fogg was the overlooked one and most were lamenting the loss of Lowe.

The only way this trade would have been ok is if it was Lowe for Ritchie, straight up. But by giving up three arms we should have got back much, much more. We should have got Curt Schilling in return, or Randy Johnson. Instead we got back a batting practice pitcher.

If you want to make yourself sick, check out this link that compares the stats of Ritchie/Kip/Lowe/Fogg/Baldwin. Probably no one or only a few wanted Baldwin back. Yet Baldwin is having a better year than Ritchie.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section2=null&statSet2=null&statType=2&sortByStat=IP&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=1&box1=XXXX121234chaX&box2=XXXX150337pitX&box3=XXXX150319pitX&box4=XXXX117957pitX&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=baldwin

Originally posted by baggio202 2. bradford for olivo...chad bradford

I’ve never quite understood the Sox dislike of Bradford. They never really gave him a shot on the MLB level and when they did it was during the 00 playoffs, much to Bradford’s surprise.

I remember hearing Tommy John talking about the White Sox pitching development. TJ said that the Sox are more concerned about the radar gun over success and knowing how to pitch. TJ pointed to Bradford as an example. Bradford did nothing but succeed in the minors.

I still hold out a hope that Olivo pans out. I remember KW praising Olivo at Soxfest...

Originally posted by baggio202 3. baldwin for masaoka/majewski/berry-barry...baldwin is being james baldwin this year...6-6 with a 4.65 era...on pace for about 13 wins which is what he always gave us...masaoka was the guy kenny was raving about at sox fest when someone asked him about trading baldwin...we were "gonna love this guy"..well he was released in ST with an era of 40.40..kenny williams response.."we didnt like his curveball"...majewski- he is toiling away in the bullpen in birmingham...barry -berry had his contract sold to japan...atleast we recouped some of the money we sent over to the dodgers in this deal...

KW dissed Baldwin at Soxfest, 'No way was JB going to come back'. Well the guy you traded 3 pitchers for is doing worse than four of the guys you dealt. Great KW. Nice job.

Jerry_Manuel
06-27-2002, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
KW dissed Baldwin at Soxfest, 'No way was JB going to come back'. Well the guy you traded 3 pitchers for is doing worse than four of the guys you dealt. Great KW. Nice job.

I really don't think the Sox thought JB would sign for so cheap. Maybe he po'ed Williams.

Paulwny
06-27-2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I really don't think the Sox thought JB would sign for so cheap. Maybe he po'ed Williams.

You never know unless you make an offer, did we ?

DrCrawdad
06-27-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I really don't think the Sox thought JB would sign for so cheap. Maybe he po'ed Williams.

No doubt JB po'd KW. Is Ritchie making more than JB?

hold2dibber
06-27-2002, 09:31 AM
Everyone thought Baldwin was going to go out and ask for Darren Driefert-type money which, of course, would have been ridiculous. But he was a good deal at the price the Mariners got him -- he makes a solid #4 starter (whereas Ritchie, so far, has been a lousy #4 starter, not the solid #2 KW thought he was getting).

Jerry_Manuel
06-27-2002, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
You never know unless you make an offer, did we ?

True, but I really believe that they felt someone would offer JB a long term, big money deal.

Jerry_Manuel
06-27-2002, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
No doubt JB po'd KW. Is Ritchie making more than JB?

Baldwin: 1,250,000
Ritchie: 3,533,333

DrCrawdad
06-27-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Baldwin: 1,250,000
Ritchie: 3,533,333

Now I'm even more sick.

DrCrawdad
06-27-2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Baldwin: 1,250,000
Ritchie: 3,533,333

I wonder if the total salaries of Baldwin, Kip, Fogg and Lowe are less than Ritchie's?

I'd bet that the total of the discarded pitchers is less than Ritchie's salary. Of course, we can't afford the team that we have...

SoxxoS
06-27-2002, 10:33 AM
You can fault KW for those horrible deals. But, you can't fault him for learning on the job, and getting put in that place. This is Reinsdorf's fault for hiring a guy that was not ready for the position. Dan Evans was more than capable of taking the GM duties, but for some unknown reason (I dont even think Reinsdorf knows) he hired KW. We do a lot of "rushing" in this organization...Our pitchers (Garland, Rauch, Wright, etc.) our GM's and of course our 3rd baseman :D:

Jerry_Manuel
06-27-2002, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I wonder if the total salaries of Baldwin, Kip, Fogg and Lowe are less than Ritchie's?

I'd bet that the total of the discarded pitchers is less than Ritchie's salary. Of course, we can't afford the team that we have...

Ritchie: 3,533,333

Baldwin: 1,250,000
Wells: 272,500
Lowe: 950,000
Fogg: 203,000

= 2,675,500

Cheryl
06-27-2002, 10:40 AM
Somebody hold a gun to Kenny's head and make him take the job? We can blame JR for hiring a GM who needs a lot of one the job training, but Kenny didn't have to take the job.

duke of dorwood
06-27-2002, 10:44 AM
And JB was a big chemistry type guy-Kind of like Jeff Abbott was. Funny how these guys disappear .

Garrison
06-27-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Ritchie: 3,533,333

Baldwin: 1,250,000
Wells: 272,500
Lowe: 950,000
Fogg: 203,000

= 2,675,500

Wow what a rip off. We could have four good pitchers for one million less the price of one. This is sickening. I need a drink. :gulp:

SoxxoS
06-27-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Cheryl
Somebody hold a gun to Kenny's head and make him take the job? We can blame JR for hiring a GM who needs a lot of one the job training, but Kenny didn't have to take the job.

Cheryl, come on. NOBODY in Kenny Williams position would have said "no" to the GM job. That is what he worked and strived for, there is no way he turns it down. It is the people who hire the GM (Reinsdorf and the board of directors) who have to make the right choice. Same thing with young pitchers. Ron Schuler calls AAA and tells Garland he got promoted in 1999. What is Jon going to say..."No thanks, I need a little more seasoning down here, but thanks anyway." I would like to see evidence of anyone within any organization, lower on the totem pole than the GM, who got promoted and turned the offer down. It just wont happen. KW shouldn't have to learn on the job, but those are the cards he was dealt thanks to Reinsdorf.

SI1020
06-27-2002, 11:22 AM
A drink? Make that a double. Oh, by the way make Ritchie pick up the tab. Then order me another double. This one's on Kenny.

ode to veeck
06-27-2002, 02:20 PM
You can fault KW for those horrible deals. But, you can't fault him for learning on the job, and getting put in that place. This is Reinsdorf's fault for hiring a guy that was not ready for the position.

This hits the nail on the head, KW wasn't the right guy for the GM job by a long shot, and with 20 years plus as the managing partner, JR's got no excuse on this one, except to blame the fans for not coming out.