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View Full Version : Kenny Williams: The "Anti-Schueler"


TomBradley72
09-01-2010, 10:56 AM
Robin Ventura was on MLB radio (XM) this morning...the 1997 "White Flag" trade came up as part of the discussion.

I think it's very telling how different the franchise is today, that in 1997 we were 3.5 games back with Ventura just returning, and we threw in the towel.

In 2010, we're 4 games back and KW/JR are doubling down with a $3.8M investment in Ramirez. I don't agree with every move they make, etc...but it sure is alot more fun with a team that is "going for it".

Rockabilly
09-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Kenny is the best GM the Sox ever had

SI1020
09-01-2010, 11:17 AM
Kenny is the best GM the Sox ever had I don't think it's fair to evaluate someone until at least a while after they leave the organization. One thing that has kept the White Sox alive down through the years is a series of quality GMs that helped keep the Sox above water despite being outmanned, outgunned, outspent, and often times not having much down on the farm. KW is in the tradition that started with Frank Lane, who for my money is still the best the Sox ever had. When you get Sherm Lollar, Nellie Fox, Billy Pierce and Minnie Minoso for next to nothing that gets my attention. KW still has a while to go before he eventually leaves. I'd take him a thousand times over his counterpart on the north side, and he sure beats the hell out of Ron Schueler. Still, he's too streaky for my liking to call him the best ever, but like I said, his full story is yet to be written. The man has guts and isn't afraid to go all out for it.

Edit: I called KW "streaky" and cast my lot with Frank Lane. I should add that overall I would rate KW over Frank Lane. Ask some Cleveland Indians fans of my generation about Frank Lane and you might hear a string of expletives. Some have never forgiven him for trading their hero Rocky Colavito. Lane had a compulsion to trade, and he didn't care who it was. He could be reckless at times. With the Sox however he had his best years.

Madvora
09-01-2010, 11:31 AM
I just looked it up and the Sox were in 3rd place with a 53-53 record that year. Obviously they were very much in it, but I remember not having any bad feelings about the white flag trade at all. My memory is terrible about specifics, but I do remember feeling incredibly frustrated with how bad the team was playing and couldn't wait for them to start over. I never had a problem with the white flag trade.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Kenny is the best GM the Sox ever had

I like KW for the fact that he helped bring a World Series to the Sox. But, as the previous post says, we need to see how what condition the entire system is in after he leaves before we crown him "best ever". This is not a knock on him, but for someone to be the "best ever had" means NOTHING was traded off for something else. In any business, job or sport, that's tough to do.

Craig Grebeck
09-01-2010, 11:35 AM
I had and have no problem with the so-called white flag trade.

cws05champ
09-01-2010, 11:55 AM
I like KW for the fact that he helped bring a World Series to the Sox. But, as the previous post says, we need to see how what condition the entire system is in after he leaves before we crown him "best ever". This is not a knock on him, but for someone to be the "best ever had" means NOTHING was traded off for something else. In any business, job or sport, that's tough to do.

KW is an "all in" type person, and I believe him when he says he wants to win every year. I think he is a very good evaluator of talent for the most part, but it would be nice to hold onto some of the younger guys once in awhile. I think the big disconnect in the organization is between KW's "go for it" by trading for veteran players and the organizational philosophy on drafting/scouting/development. I'm fine with KW's aggressiveness but it would make more sense if they put more resources into high end draft picks and international signings to bolster the farm system so KW has more to work with. Then they would actually be able to "re-load" and still have a viable farm system.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2010, 12:03 PM
Depends on your definition of 'the best'.

Kenny is very good, Lane was very good...so was Ed Short especially from 61-67 but to me given all the hardships and the issues the Sox were facing for Roland Hemond to do the type of job that he did makes him 'the best.'

Kenny, Lane and Ed never had to worry about going bankrupt, moving or having the stadium fall apart.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2010, 01:09 PM
I do like the way that Kenny thinks every year is a year to win and I like the fact that he is aggressive. Otherwise I am not exactly enamored with him as a GM, there's a lot of hit and miss with him.

TomBradley72
09-01-2010, 01:18 PM
I just looked it up and the Sox were in 3rd place with a 53-53 record that year. Obviously they were very much in it, but I remember not having any bad feelings about the white flag trade at all. My memory is terrible about specifics, but I do remember feeling incredibly frustrated with how bad the team was playing and couldn't wait for them to start over. I never had a problem with the white flag trade.

The one variable I think Schueler missed out on was the return of Ventura...the guy fights like crazy to come back in time for the pennant race..and less than a week later they give up...huge impact on the fans and the team itself.

The REAL move that they should have made once they knew Ventura could play the final 2 months would have been to replace the buffoon in the manager's chair...Bevington....and go for it.

The Indians won the division with a record of 86-75, so a 33-22 record after the trade would have done the job...if they had kept the team intact + Ventura + remove the idiot managing the team..they had a shot.

SI1020
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
The one variable I think Schueler missed out on was the return of Ventura...the guy fights like crazy to come back in time for the pennant race..and less than a week later they give up...huge impact on the fans and the team itself.

The REAL move that they should have made once they knew Ventura could play the final 2 months would have been to replace the buffoon in the manager's chair...Bevington....and go for it.

The Indians won the division with a record of 86-75, so a 33-22 record after the trade would have done the job...if they had kept the team intact + Ventura + remove the idiot managing the team..they had a shot. The Indians and their 86-75 record almost won the WS that year.

Viva Medias B's
09-01-2010, 05:44 PM
Kenny Williams = Ulysses S. Grant
Ron Schueler = George McClellan

captain54
09-01-2010, 06:03 PM
I had and have no problem with the so-called white flag trade.

I don't know how you can say that when JR and Co, gave up on a season in early August, pissed off the players, pissed off the fans....all for basically Keith Foulke and Bob Howry

Taliesinrk
09-01-2010, 06:20 PM
I don't know how you can say that when JR and Co, gave up on a season in early August, pissed off the players, pissed off the fans....all for basically Keith Foulke and Bob Howry

??? - I'm confused. Didn't the Sox get Carlos Lee and/or Maggs out of that trade?

Craig Grebeck
09-01-2010, 06:35 PM
I don't know how you can say that when JR and Co, gave up on a season in early August, pissed off the players, pissed off the fans....all for basically Keith Foulke and Bob Howry
And, amazingly, the franchise still lives!

Pablo_Honey
09-01-2010, 06:37 PM
??? - I'm confused. Didn't the Sox get Carlos Lee and/or Maggs out of that trade?
Eh, no. Both guys were in the system long before the trade went down. The only decent players out of that trade were Foulke and Howry and Caruso in his rookie season.

TomBradley72
09-01-2010, 06:44 PM
And, amazingly, the franchise still lives!

We survived the John Allyn era...we can survive anything.

TDog
09-01-2010, 06:50 PM
Kenny Williams = Ulysses S. Grant
Ron Schueler = George McClellan

An excellent analogy. McClellan was relieved of duty when what he was doing wasn't working. When McClellan ran for president against the man who relieved him, he campaigned to end the war much differently than Grant did the next year.

Grant was a winner. McClellan thought more could be gained by giving up.

Lane was remarkable all things considered, competing with the Yankees at a time when there was no amateur draft. Short's approach led to the eventual collapse of the team, trading young talent that would go on to be World Series stars for other teams (Agee, Buford etc.), and when the young talent ran too thin to trade, the White Sox hit rock bottom, losing 106 games three years after being a week away from the World Series. Roland Hemond deserves credit for doing what he could do to bring the Sox back, although he had little to work with.

Williams may be a combination of Lane and Short, with the advantage of playing in a free-agent market which changes the way business is done even if you don't sign the big free agents.

The trade in 1997 didn't help the Sox much. It brought in a closer, and when he ceased to be effective, there was another closer from the deal. And there was a shortstop who had wouldn't be around in 2000, although he did hit a home run in Wrigley Field. That isn't much considering the anger and ill will it generated. It was a bad trade for different reasons.

At least I don't know any Sox fans boycotting Sox games anymore. And contending seasons don't come five years apart anymore.

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2010, 06:54 PM
Kenny Williams = Ulysses S. Grant
Ron Schueler = George McClellan

I'd agree with Schueler being McClellan, but I'm not so sure Kenny is Grant. Maybe Kenny is more like Meade, or General Hooker. It's hard to have a GM as who is a Grant because at no point will there be an "ultimate victory" as there will always be another battle and another war next year.

Daver
09-01-2010, 06:55 PM
??? - I'm confused. Didn't the Sox get Carlos Lee and/or Maggs out of that trade?

No. They got Foulke, Howry, Mike Caruso, and another pitcher that never made it.

Konerko05
09-01-2010, 07:07 PM
No. They got Foulke, Howry, Mike Caruso, and another pitcher that never made it.

Lorenzo Barcelo. He actually had a very good rookie season in 2000 before arm injuries took their toll on him, along with every other pitcher from 2000.

TDog
09-01-2010, 07:09 PM
I'd agree with Schueler being McClellan, but I'm not so sure Kenny is Grant. Maybe Kenny is more like Meade, or General Hooker. It's hard to have a GM as who is a Grant because at no point will there be an "ultimate victory" as there will always be another battle and another war next year.

In 1865, Grant won the war, just as Williams did in another arena seven score years later. Grant went from there to be a corrupt president (it's not that simple, but I recommend Jean Edward Smith's recent excellent biography). Granted, the analogy (if not the poor, awkward puns) ends in 2005, although Williams has not given up, even when early in the season I seemed in a minority in not wanting to scrap this season by trading away the talent.

TDog
09-01-2010, 07:13 PM
Lorenzo Barcelo. He actually had a very good rookie season in 2000 before arm injuries took their toll on him, along with every other pitcher from 2000.

Barcelo was thought to be the target of the White Sox, the future star. It didn't work out that way. Foulke had been a failed starting pitcher for the Giants, just as Thornton would later be for the Mariners before the White Sox picked him up.

Rounding out the deal was pitcher Ken Vining, whose major league ERA was over 17.

dickallen15
09-01-2010, 07:19 PM
Barcelo was thought to be the target of the White Sox, the future star. It didn't work out that way. Foulke had been a failed starting pitcher for the Giants, just as Thornton would later be for the Mariners before the White Sox picked him up.

Rounding out the deal was pitcher Ken Vining, whose major league ERA was over 17.

KW used to ride Barcelo because he was complaining he was hurt and KW thought it was in his head. It turns out he had both elbow and shoulder injuries. And you're right, at the time of the trade, while there were a couple of guys who had really good MLB careers, he was thought to be the prize.

TDog
09-01-2010, 07:43 PM
KW used to ride Barcelo because he was complaining he was hurt and KW thought it was in his head. It turns out he had both elbow and shoulder injuries. And you're right, at the time of the trade, while there were a couple of guys who had really good MLB careers, he was thought to be the prize.

Lorenzo's personality led to the attitude management had towards him. He was a fun guy, but if he took things more seriously, Williams and Jerry Manuel and Nardi Contreras might have taken his complaints more seriously.

I'm not sure how responsible Contreras was for many of the pitching problems the White Sox experienced in those years, but I'm happy with the job Don Cooper has done.

Zisk77
09-01-2010, 11:34 PM
Down the stretch in 2000 Barcelo and Buehrle were lights out set-up 6th and seventh inning guys to get to Howry 8th and Foulke 9th. This was hugely important as We lost Cal Eldred mid season and our long reliever Sean Lowe filled in admirally but could only go 5 innings same with James Baldwin who pitched threw injury.

captain54
09-02-2010, 12:14 AM
the Sox starting pitching was thin going into the 2000 playoffs....the ace was Jim Parque, and after that Sirotka and Baldwin, who was pitching hurt..

Keith Foulke had a horrible 2000 ALDS....gave up back to back homers in extras in Game 1, and had a 12.00 ERA in the three game series.

of course, the big issue was the offense....Konerko, Thomas, Ordonez and Carlos Lee had a combined 3 hits in the the entire series...Herbert Perry was the only one who showed up offensively...

Daver
09-02-2010, 12:17 AM
the Sox starting pitching was thin going into the 2000 playoffs....the ace was Jim Parque, and after that Sirotka and Baldwin, who was pitching hurt..

Keith Foulke had a horrible 2000 ALDS....gave up back to back homers in extras in Game 1, and had a 12.00 ERA in the three game series.

of course, the big issue was the offense....Konerko, Thomas, Ordonez and Carlos Lee had a combined 3 hits in the the entire series...Herbert Perry was the only one who showed up offensively...

The Jays knew what the Sox pitchers were throwing in that series, they stole all the signs and the throwaways, the Sox staff never had a chance in that series.

Harry Potter
09-02-2010, 12:29 AM
Barcelo was thought to be the target of the White Sox, the future star. It didn't work out that way. Foulke had been a failed starting pitcher for the Giants, just as Thornton would later be for the Mariners before the White Sox picked him up.

Rounding out the deal was pitcher Ken Vining, whose major league ERA was over 17.

The 6th and final piece of the trade puzzle was an outfielder, Brian Manning, who never made it to the big leagues.

Foulke You
09-02-2010, 12:53 AM
I had and have no problem with the so-called white flag trade.
The White Flag Trade was ridiculous being only 3.5 back. I'm sorry, you don't give up on Pennant races when you are that close. The Sox traded their closer (Roberto Hernandez) and 2/3 of their starting rotation (Alvarez and Darwin) to the Giants and received basically 2 top level prospects at the time (Caruso, Barcelo) and everyone else was mid level. Can you imagine the outrage at KW this year if he would have traded Jenks, Garcia, and Buehrle to an NL club for two good prospects and 3 mid-level prospects being 3.5 games out of the Twins? In essence, this is exactly what Schueler did back in 1997. Many people also forget, the Sox really began "White Flagging" two days prior when they traded Baines to the Orioles but that was a warm-up for the full surrender on July 31st of that year.

The White Flag Trade was unconscionable and was insulting to Sox fans everywhere especially when you consider the team hadn't won since 1917. Not to mention, it was the worst PR disaster the team had since Disco Demolition. We became the laughing stock of baseball and rightfully so. We moan and groan how the Sox "gift wrap" games to the Twins this year by blowing leads and not getting clutch hits. Well, in 1997, the Sox LITERALLY did "gift wrap" a division title to Cleveland with that White Flag trade. To make matters worse, the Tribe lost something like 8 in a row following the trade. It didn't matter by then because half the team was gone. That was like getting punched in the gut and the lowest I've ever felt as a Sox fan. It took the Sox years to recover from that trade. I agree with TomBradley's post. The real move at the end of July should have been to remove Bevington and add another starting pitcher.

Jpgr91
09-02-2010, 12:59 AM
In 1865, Grant won the war, just as Williams did in another arena seven score years later. Grant went from there to be a corrupt president (it's not that simple, but I recommend Jean Edward Smith's recent excellent biography). Granted, the analogy (if not the poor, awkward puns) ends in 2005, although Williams has not given up, even when early in the season I seemed in a minority in not wanting to scrap this season by trading away the talent.

I'd agree with Schueler being McClellan, but I'm not so sure Kenny is Grant. Maybe Kenny is more like Meade, or General Hooker. It's hard to have a GM as who is a Grant because at no point will there be an "ultimate victory" as there will always be another battle and another war next year.

Kenny Williams = Ulysses S. Grant
Ron Schueler = George McClellan

The biggest problem with the analogy is that Grant adopted a strategy based on what was in effect unlimited resources. Grant was able to exploit this advantage all the way to a Union Victory. KW is competing in an environment where a lot of his opponents have a lot more resources at their disposal that he does.

I believe that there are too many significant off the field concerns that affect a GM's decision making environment to realistically compare GM's of different eras. There is also no way for us to know what type of directives ownership was giving to each GM. You can not rate a GM's performance unless you can properly weigh all of the off the field concerns.

Foulke You
09-02-2010, 01:02 AM
The Jays knew what the Sox pitchers were throwing in that series, they stole all the signs and the throwaways, the Sox staff never had a chance in that series.
I believe you meant the Mariners.

The pitching could have been better but the failure of the middle of the lineup was what I really remember the most about the 2000 ALDS. Parque and Sirotka were "ok" in Game 1 and 2 and James Baldwin pitched pretty well in Game 3 but as captain54 pointed out, the offense didn't really show up in that series. I never saw so many pop-ups in 3 games as I did during the 2000 ALDS. Lee, Ordonez, Thomas, and Konerko just didn't get it done. I remember Cal Eldred had an amazing year but hurt his elbow. Could have been a different story if he got to pitch in that series and Sirotka's shoulder wasn't falling apart by the time October rolled around. Also, the Brook Fordyce trade shook up the chemistry a bit as he was very popular in the clubhouse.

captain54
09-02-2010, 01:32 AM
The pitching could have been better but the failure of the middle of the lineup was what I really remember the most about the 2000 ALDS.very .

other memories from that series include

-seeing the leading offense in the majors (Sox) hit .186 in that series
-Lou Piniella outmanaging Jerry Manuel.
-the Seattle bullpen totally shutting down the Sox
-Lou Piniella getting into Keith Foulkes head in game 1, by whispering something in Mike Cameron's ear, after which Foulke gave up back to back homers
-Manuel putting Thomas in at first in game 3 after only playing 30 games there in 2000, and the Mariners bunting straight to Thomas to squeeze in the winning run
-the continuing frustration of not being able to win a playoff game at home

I have a headache after reading what I just wrote

WhiteSox5187
09-02-2010, 01:59 AM
The Jays knew what the Sox pitchers were throwing in that series, they stole all the signs and the throwaways, the Sox staff never had a chance in that series.

We didn't face the Jays in 2000, we faced the Mariners. The problem in 2000 in my humble opinion was that our pitching staff was just so beat up. I know we had problems scoring in that series, but in the second half our rotation was just falling apart.

SOXSINCE'70
09-02-2010, 07:30 AM
Keith Foulke had a horrible 2000 ALDS....gave up back to back homers in extras in Game 1, and had a 12.00 ERA in the three game series.

I was at that game. Edgar Martinez hit one that just cleared the left field wall.John Olerud then followed with a rainbow shot over the right field fence that was not cheap.:(: My friend and I had that sinking feeling in our stomachs at that point, and we were right.To be swept in a best 3 of 5 series is humiliating.

soxinem1
09-02-2010, 07:40 AM
Kenny Williams = Ulysses S. Grant
Ron Schueler = George McClellan

Unfortunately being a History major I'd have to really disagree with this one. McClellan was a sound General while Grant was lucky.

I would give KW the Eisenhower branding first, and Benedict Arnold to Scheuler.

wassagstdu
09-02-2010, 08:57 AM
Big difference between 1997 and 2010: 2005. Changed everything.

Dan H
09-02-2010, 09:03 AM
The White Flag Trade was a fiasco and what players were involved had nothing to do with it. For many, the team simply had no credibility after the trade.

SI1020
09-02-2010, 10:07 AM
Unfortunately being a History major I'd have to really disagree with this one. McClellan was a sound General while Grant was lucky.
I'm a history major too and have the bank account to prove it. I can't say I agree with your assessment. While we're making all these wild analogies I'd like to compare KW to former heavyweight boxing contender Earnie Shavers. Both of them streaky, aggressive and packing a big punch.

Lip Man 1
09-02-2010, 11:35 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

A disaster for the franchise.

Lip

bigdommer
09-02-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't know who's the better GM, but one thing to remember when evaluating is relative payroll. Pre-WS championship, the Sox were typically in the middle 3rd of the leauge in payroll. From 2006-2010, the Sox were always in the top 3rd of payroll, and in most years the top 5th. I think that in the post championship years, expectations combined with JR's loosening of the purse strings required KW to "go for it" and allowed the financial flexibility to do so. Further, I think it was one of the first times I can remember (I am only 30 y/o) that all three of the owner, GM, and manager were on the same page. Sure, Kenny and Ozzie have their differences, but Kenny tailored that 2005 team to Ozzie's liking and it seems that acquisitions (as well as those sent packing) have been somewhat joint decisions.

WhiteSox5187
09-02-2010, 03:58 PM
I don't know who's the better GM, but one thing to remember when evaluating is relative payroll. Pre-WS championship, the Sox were typically in the middle 3rd of the leauge in payroll. From 2006-2010, the Sox were always in the top 3rd of payroll, and in most years the top 5th. I think that in the post championship years, expectations combined with JR's loosening of the purse strings required KW to "go for it" and allowed the financial flexibility to do so. Further, I think it was one of the first times I can remember (I am only 30 y/o) that all three of the owner, GM, and manager were on the same page. Sure, Kenny and Ozzie have their differences, but Kenny tailored that 2005 team to Ozzie's liking and it seems that acquisitions (as well as those sent packing) have been somewhat joint decisions.

I think the fact that the Sox are in the upper third of the payroll and have only made the playoffs once since 2005 hurts Kenny. Also while Kenny made the '05 team to Ozzie's liking (and this team too) every year since 2005 the Sox moved further and further away from the solid defensive and offensively balanced team that they were in '05. But, I have my issues with Kenny.

pudge
09-03-2010, 01:20 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

A disaster for the franchise.

Lip

I am with those who have said they have and had no problem with the White Flag trade... that team was going nowhere, I don't care about 3.5 out or 8.5 out. That team was going absolutely nowhere, period. Now, were the players they got the best? No. They should have gotten more if they were going to make a move like that. Keep in mind, Foulke and Howry were big pieces to a 2000 playoff team that was the best in the AL for much of the season. But I have a much bigger problem with the later move of giving up Keith Foulke and signing Billy Koch. That hosed this franchise big time. If Foulke is on the 2003 team, that team may very well be in the World Series.

I love what this team is doing now though, and the difference in attitude that Kenny brings to the table.

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2010, 01:41 PM
I am with those who have said they have and had no problem with the White Flag trade... that team was going nowhere, I don't care about 3.5 out or 8.5 out. That team was going absolutely nowhere, period. Now, were the players they got the best? No. They should have gotten more if they were going to make a move like that. Keep in mind, Foulke and Howry were big pieces to a 2000 playoff team that was the best in the AL for much of the season. But I have a much bigger problem with the later move of giving up Keith Foulke and signing Billy Koch. That hosed this franchise big time. If Foulke is on the 2003 team, that team may very well be in the World Series.

I love what this team is doing now though, and the difference in attitude that Kenny brings to the table.

The 2003 team was never going to go to the World Series. Defense was a foreign concept to them.

The biggest thing that the White Flag trade did was show the fans that the team didn't care about winning. It was a PR nightmare. Yea, now you can look back and say "Oh that team was going nowhere," but they were only 3.5 out with two months to play. Schueler along with Reisendorf just flat out quit on the season and on their fans. That coupled with the fact that the owner played a big role in canceling the post season in a year where the Sox were destined for it really hurt the team's credibility and it probably didn't regain it until after the World Series victory in 2005.

slavko
09-03-2010, 01:55 PM
Should it be mentioned that the WFT was a salary dump of 2 pitchers who were due for big raises in the near future? You know, like the Pirates do as a matter of course? The team was only 3-1/2 out but not drawing flies. This one WAS about the money.

AnkleSox
09-03-2010, 02:04 PM
other memories from that series include

-seeing the leading offense in the majors (Sox) hit .186 in that series
-Lou Piniella outmanaging Jerry Manuel.
-the Seattle bullpen totally shutting down the Sox
-Lou Piniella getting into Keith Foulkes head in game 1, by whispering something in Mike Cameron's ear, after which Foulke gave up back to back homers
-Manuel putting Thomas in at first in game 3 after only playing 30 games there in 2000, and the Mariners bunting straight to Thomas to squeeze in the winning run
-the continuing frustration of not being able to win a playoff game at home

I have a headache after reading what I just wrote

Ugh. Reading this makes me want to vomit. If it weren't for 2005 it's possible that I'd be in tears right now reliving those awful memories.

captain54
09-03-2010, 02:41 PM
I am with those who have said they have and had no problem with the White Flag trade... that team was going nowhere, I don't care about 3.5 out or 8.5 out. That team was going absolutely nowhere, period.
.

that's simply just not true...no team in that division was lighting it up that year....consider this

the Indians went 10-14 just prior to the WFT....following the WFT, they basically played around .500...by the end of August, White Sox actually
GAINED a game, and were 2.5 games out, even with the WFT...

going head to head, the Sox prior to the WFT, went 3-2 vs the Indians

the difference maker was the 7 games in September vs the Indians, where the Sox went 2-5...keep in mind, the Sox had a major chunk of their rotation missing PLUS their closer during that series....Sox ended up finishing 2nd, 6 games out.

it all basically telegraphed...."we don't care about winning"

TomBradley72
09-03-2010, 02:56 PM
that's simply just not true...no team in that division was lighting it up that year....consider this

the Indians went 10-14 just prior to the WFT....following the WFT, they basically played around .500...by the end of August, White Sox actually
GAINED a game, and were 2.5 games out, even with the WFT...

going head to head, the Sox prior to the WFT, went 3-2 vs the Indians

the difference maker was the 7 games in September vs the Indians, where the Sox went 2-5...keep in mind, the Sox had a major chunk of their rotation missing PLUS their closer during that series....Sox ended up finishing 2nd, 6 games out.

it all basically telegraphed...."we don't care about winning"

Yep...and they had just come off a 17-11 June which followed a 15-11 May.

asindc
09-03-2010, 03:32 PM
I think the fact that the Sox are in the upper third of the payroll and have only made the playoffs once since 2005 hurts Kenny. Also while Kenny made the '05 team to Ozzie's liking (and this team too) every year since 2005 the Sox moved further and further away from the solid defensive and offensively balanced team that they were in '05. But, I have my issues with Kenny.

I actually think this year's team moves closer to what we had in '05 in terms of style of play than the 06-09 teams showed.

KW's major talents seem to be picking up diamonds in the rough and knowing when to trade what little farm talent he has been able to acquire. His big weakness to me is, of course, the farm system. Overall, I rate him among the best in the game now and in Sox history. If he fixes the farm system while maintaining his other strengths, then he moves to the head of the Sox GM class, IMO.

TomBradley72
09-03-2010, 04:21 PM
I actually think this year's team moves closer to what we had in '05 in terms of style of play than the 06-09 teams showed.

KW's major talents seem to be picking up diamonds in the rough and knowing when to trade what little farm talent he has been able to acquire. His big weakness to me is, of course, the farm system. Overall, I rate him among the best in the game now and in Sox history. If he fixes the farm system while maintaining his other strengths, then he moves to the head of the Sox GM class, IMO.

:nod:

Dub25
09-03-2010, 11:55 PM
I believe you meant the Mariners.

The pitching could have been better but the failure of the middle of the lineup was what I really remember the most about the 2000 ALDS. Parque and Sirotka were "ok" in Game 1 and 2 and James Baldwin pitched pretty well in Game 3 but as captain54 pointed out, the offense didn't really show up in that series. I never saw so many pop-ups in 3 games as I did during the 2000 ALDS. Lee, Ordonez, Thomas, and Konerko just didn't get it done. I remember Cal Eldred had an amazing year but hurt his elbow. Could have been a different story if he got to pitch in that series and Sirotka's shoulder wasn't falling apart by the time October rolled around. Also, the Brook Fordyce trade shook up the chemistry a bit as he was very popular in the clubhouse.

Agred, and not just game 3, I was there for the first 2 games and there were tons of pop ups. Really, only Durham and Valentin's bats showed up. And another thing that annoys me with that series is everyone wants to give Pinella so much credit for out managing Manual. Why? Because Lou ran to 1st base to tell Cameron what to do because he was to dumb to pickup the sign from the 3rd base coach?

Dub25
09-03-2010, 11:56 PM
other memories from that series include

-seeing the leading offense in the majors (Sox) hit .186 in that series
-Lou Piniella outmanaging Jerry Manuel.
-the Seattle bullpen totally shutting down the Sox
-Lou Piniella getting into Keith Foulkes head in game 1, by whispering something in Mike Cameron's ear, after which Foulke gave up back to back homers
-Manuel putting Thomas in at first in game 3 after only playing 30 games there in 2000, and the Mariners bunting straight to Thomas to squeeze in the winning run
-the continuing frustration of not being able to win a playoff game at home

I have a headache after reading what I just wrote

:scratch:

captain54
09-04-2010, 12:08 AM
And another thing that annoys me with that series is everyone wants to give Pinella so much credit for out managing Manual. Why? Because Lou ran to 1st base to tell Cameron what to do because he was to dumb to pickup the sign from the 3rd base coach?

I'll give you an example an then maybe you won't be annoyed anymore.

Manuel's idea was to put Thomas at first and Baines at DH to try to give more offense in game 3, and all Piniella did was exploit the Sox defensive weakness at first for the game winning run to end the series.

I wasn't there at game 1 and no on can really be sure what happened, but apparently Piniella didn't say anything relating to stealing a base to Cameron. It was just a ploy to get into Foulke's head, and it worked.

Dub25
09-04-2010, 12:22 AM
I'll give you an example an then maybe you won't be annoyed anymore.

Manuel's idea was to put Thomas at first and Baines at DH to try to give more offense in game 3, and all Piniella did was exploit the Sox defensive weakness at first for the game winning run to end the series.

I wasn't there at game 1 and no on can really be sure what happened, but apparently Piniella didn't say anything relating to stealing a base to Cameron. It was just a ploy to get into Foulke's head, and it worked.

The Thomas at 1st base... maybe its me but I'm thinking that was common sense to go after him instead of out managing... and believe me, I am nowhere near being a Manual fan.

As far as Pinella saying something to Cameron, you're right, we will never know but in my baseball expierence, when a manager comes out to talk to you, its probably because you missed something and obviously he is not going to go nuts as to give away to the other team what is happening.

Zisk77
09-04-2010, 10:04 AM
Agred, and not just game 3, I was there for the first 2 games and there were tons of pop ups. Really, only Durham and Valentin's bats showed up. And another thing that annoys me with that series is everyone wants to give Pinella so much credit for out managing Manual. Why? Because Lou ran to 1st base to tell Cameron what to do because he was to dumb to pickup the sign from the 3rd base coach?

Lou whispered something like where do you want to go eat after the game into Cameron's ear. He wanted the sox to think Cameron was stealing so Edgar would get a fastball....It worked. Boom.

pudge
09-04-2010, 06:26 PM
Should it be mentioned that the WFT was a salary dump of 2 pitchers who were due for big raises in the near future? You know, like the Pirates do as a matter of course? The team was only 3-1/2 out but not drawing flies. This one WAS about the money.

This is another big element as to why I was not against the White Flag trade, and still am not to this day. Sorry, but this is a business, professional sports are not social services (although you could argue baseball's anti-trust is total bunk and should be removed). That team was not being supported in the slightest. You can argue well if they made a run late in the season and made it to the playoffs, the fans would have come back, and that's a valid argument. But the players traded were aging from the 1993/94 high (did Alvarez or Hernandez do much after they left the Sox? Hernandez had some good years left, but you could argue nabbing Foulke and Howry was worth it long term). I had no problem trying to set something up for the future. We all hated the "kids can play" era of 98-99, but those were the financial realities of the time. They are much different with an '05 World Championship (which by the way was not won on a very high payroll).

captain54
09-04-2010, 06:54 PM
Sorry, but this is a business, professional sports are not social services (although you could argue baseball's anti-trust is total bunk and should be removed). .

yes, baseball is a business, as is all professional sports...however, you're missing one important element in all of this.

the fans aren't in it for business reasons..we don't follow the team, buy the tickets, spend money at the park for any financial gain. the fans do it for emotional reasons, they love their team, and want to see them win.

if you remember correctly, the justification for all of that drama was that the Sox would be putting in place some real, vital important building blocks for the future...and it was a move that would benefit the Sox for years to come...the only guys that panned out were Foulke and Howry, and if you call them vital pieces of the puzzle, and a justification for giving up a huge chunk of your starting rotation and your closer in the middle of a pennant race...then I don't know what else to say..

TomBradley72
09-05-2010, 10:12 AM
This is another big element as to why I was not against the White Flag trade, and still am not to this day. Sorry, but this is a business, professional sports are not social services (although you could argue baseball's anti-trust is total bunk and should be removed). That team was not being supported in the slightest. You can argue well if they made a run late in the season and made it to the playoffs, the fans would have come back, and that's a valid argument. But the players traded were aging from the 1993/94 high (did Alvarez or Hernandez do much after they left the Sox? Hernandez had some good years left, but you could argue nabbing Foulke and Howry was worth it long term). I had no problem trying to set something up for the future. We all hated the "kids can play" era of 98-99, but those were the financial realities of the time. They are much different with an '05 World Championship (which by the way was not won on a very high payroll).

One of the reasons they didn't draw was they never did ANYTHING to compensate for the loss of Ventura (Snopek?) just as they didn't do ANYTHING the year they lost Guillen to injury and eventually ended up
with Esteban Beltre as their everyday SS. They got off to a horrible start in April which didn't help. The REAL White Flag move were never finding a stop gap 3rd baseman until Ventura returned, and sticking with one of the worst managers in White Sox history and then firing him AFTER the season ended...ANY mid-season replacement would have improved our chances.

It was always a stand off between the WSox and their fans in that era...the fan base did not like the generic ballpark with zero connection to 90 years of history (built with state funding after threaatening a move to Fla.), they didn't like the owner who was perceived as a ring leader of the 1994 strike, and they were following a franchise with 2 post season appearances (3-6 record in '83,'93 appearances) in 38 years.

A management team of Lemont/Bevington-Schueler-Gallas did not help the cause.

The White Sox had a very strong May-June, followed by a poor month by Cleveland in July. With Ventura returning, they should have stayed with it while replacing their buffoon manager.

87 wins would have won the division...and had a much more positive impact on their profitability in 1998-1999 then the WFT trade and "Kids Can Play" era + savings from the 2 month impact of the salary dumping of Hernandez/Darwin/Alvarez. They also lost the draft picks they would have secured through the Hernandez-Alvarez free agency.

It wasn't just a bad baseball decision it was a bad business decision.