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MattSharp
06-27-2002, 12:35 AM
Frank takes pitches until he gets ball one. Just like Little League. Pitchers have figured this out and now they through him a ball right down the middle on the first pitch. I mean c'mon if he starting swinging at the first pitch he could get his groove back. Forget shifting his weight and all that jazz, if he could just do this he could be a dominant hitter again.....

Daver
06-27-2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Frank takes pitches until he gets ball one. Just like Little League. Pitchers have figured this out and now they through him a ball right down the middle on the first pitch. I mean c'mon if he starting swinging at the first pitch he could get his groove back. Forget shifting his weight and all that jazz, if he could just do this he could be a dominant hitter again.....

Have you considered applying for Gary Ward's job?

RKMeibalane
06-27-2002, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by daver


Have you considered applying for Gary Ward's job?

The Sox would never hire him. MattSharp is an intelligent person. The Sox are interested only in hiring incompetent people to do their coaching for them. SEE: Gary Ward, Nardi Contreras, Terry Bevington.

Nellie_Fox
06-27-2002, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Frank takes pitches until he gets ball one. Just like Little League. Pitchers have figured this out and now they through him a ball right down the middle on the first pitch. I mean c'mon if he starting swinging at the first pitch he could get his groove back. Forget shifting his weight and all that jazz, if he could just do this he could be a dominant hitter again..... The American League knew this about Frank ten years ago. It didn't help them then. Frank is just a mess at the plate right now; he's got a different stance every night. It has nothing to do with taking the first pitch, as he's always done that.

I don't know what the answer is, but believe me, this is not some new thing or new discovery.

mrwag
06-27-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I don't know what the answer is

Walt Hriniak knows...

ode to veeck
06-27-2002, 02:46 PM
Nellie's right, he seems to be still struggling and trying different things to find his groove--like Manuel the tinkerer has worn off on ol' Hurt--I hope he settles down and gets back to racking up the big offense again

Jerry_Manuel
06-27-2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The Sox would never hire him. MattSharp is an intelligent person.

MS also says:
MS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=105418#post105418)

Cameron is a great fielder but a lousy hitter. I think Rowand is as good if not better of a fielder, and has still yet to be given a good chance at the plate.

Rowand as good as Cameron? No.

MattSharp
06-27-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


MS also says:
MS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=105418#post105418)



Rowand as good as Cameron? No.


JM please explain what makes Mike Cameron so good? Right now hes batting .215. I mean seriously. subtract that fluke of a 4 HR game and he has 9 other HRs.

Hes a look at some stats:

Cameron (261 ABs)

AVG: .215
HRS: 13
2B: 13
3B: 4
SB: 11
H: 56
R: 47
BB: 39
K: 85

Rowand (78 AB) (In paranthesis is his stats tripled sincee he had about a third as many ABs)

AVG: .218
HR: 1 (3)
2B: 7 (21)
3B: 0
SB: 0
H: 17 (51)
R: 6 (18)
BB: 1 (3)
K: 16 (48)

Now granted Cameron would have more SBs, and runs but the rest of his team is better. 85 Ks in 75 games? I mean really. Ok I will give you that Cameron is a little better, but I mean based on those how can you say he is that much better? Now to mention the fact that Cameron has played 6 full seasons and 800+ games and is 29. Rowand has played parts of two seasons, only 116 games and is 24.

Pound for pound they are close, but Rowand has a higer ceiling, since Cameron isn't gonna get much better than he is right now.

doublem23
06-27-2002, 07:58 PM
Good God, the guy is coming off a career-threatening injury. I'm sorry he's not hitting .400 or whatever, but I can understand why he may still be a little uncomfortable at the plate.

Jerry_Manuel
06-27-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
JM please explain what makes Mike Cameron so good?


I meant that Cameron is the better defensive player of the two.

Nellie_Fox
06-28-2002, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by mrwag
Walt Hriniak knows... And I wish Frank would spend a couple of afternoons in the cage with Walt. It's always straightened him out before.

Hriniak, like Lau before him, teaches hitting down on the ball to induce backspin. I saw a highlight of Mo Vaughn's recent 500 foot homer, and they mentioned that he had been working with a hitting coach who emphasized hitting down to induce backspin. Hmmmmmm.

Paulwny
06-28-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
And I wish Frank would spend a couple of afternoons in the cage with Walt. It's always straightened him out before.

Hriniak, like Lau before him, teaches hitting down on the ball to induce backspin. I saw a highlight of Mo Vaughn's recent 500 foot homer, and they mentioned that he had been working with a hitting coach who emphasized hitting down to induce backspin. Hmmmmmm.

Frank sought out Hriniak 2 yrs ago to find flaws in his stance. Has he talked with Hriniak this year? I believe he has and that Hriniak no longer has the answer.
As you pointed out, Hriniak and Lau were/are advocates of hitting down on the ball. I'm probably full of it but, hitting down on the ball was ideal for the strike zone of the last ~ 20yrs, where pitches above the waist were called balls. With umps now calling the higher strike hitting down on the ball becomes very difficult.
Ventura is also a Hriniak pupil who also has seen his ba suffer with the new strike zone.
Again, I'm probably full of it, but I think Hriniak sees this. I cannot think of any other reason for Hriniak not helping out Frank.

Randar68
06-28-2002, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Frank sought out Hriniak 2 yrs ago to find flaws in his stance. Has he talked with Hriniak this year? I believe he has and that Hriniak no longer has the answer.
As you pointed out, Hriniak and Lau were/are advocates of hitting down on the ball. I'm probably full of it but, hitting down on the ball was ideal for the strike zone of the last ~ 20yrs, where pitches above the waist were called balls. With umps now calling the higher strike hitting down on the ball becomes very difficult.
Ventura is also a Hriniak pupil whose also seen his ba suffer with the new strike zone.
Again, I'm probably full of it, but I think Hriniak sees this. I cannot think of any other reason for Hriniak not helping out Frank.

Outside of a handful of umps, I haven't seen this year's strikezone called any different from that of 5 years ago.

Paulwny
06-28-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Outside of a handful of umps, I haven't seen this year's strikezone called any different from that of 5 years ago.

As I said, I may be full of it, but I'm sure Frank must have talked with Hriniak. I'd like to know why he's not helping the big guy.

Randar68
06-28-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


As I said, I may be full of it, but I'm sure Frank must have talked with Hriniak. I'd like to know why he's not helping the big guy.

It's clear that Frank is frustrated with his results thus far. However, outside of average and maybe his K total and SLG%, every other stat for him is right in line with his career. HR's, BB's, OBP, RBI's...

Missing a whole year for a hitter is pretty extreme. Just like it takes a pitcher 2 years, 1 for recovery, and 1 to regain confidence/location/velocity, I think it will likely take Frank until the end of the season or start of the next to completely return to form. So much of hitting is timing and pitch recognition. Those things don't just come right back to you after a year without hitting live pitching.

Lately, he's been staying on the ball a little better, but he's not only letting the inside pitch eat him up, but he's not driving the outside pitches to right. That is one of the things that made him so deadly in the mid 90's. On top of all of this, he's working counts, but when he gets his pitch, he's dropping his shoulder and popping it up (something that was more pronounced the first or second month of the season)...

Hriniak could help him, but he just needs to get his confidence back and start driving the ball to all fields. Where have the long HR's and right center HR's gone? When we start to see more of those, we'll know Frank is back.

RKMeibalane
06-28-2002, 11:50 AM
Only time will tell with Frank. I think he's looked better recently, which may an indication that he is starting to come around. I still feel, however, that he is going to need more time. That's probably not something too many people want to hear, but it is the truth. As Randar pointed out, Thomas missed virtually the entire year in 2001, and that has made it more difficult to perform.

I would love to see Frank get hot and start getting hits in bunches, but I'm more concerned about the Sox winning games. As long as they are picking up ground on Minnesota, that's all I'm concerned about. Granted, Frank's presence will be necessary for them to overtake the Twins, but I think this team has more than enough offensive weapons at its disposal.

Nellie_Fox
06-29-2002, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm probably full of it but, hitting down on the ball was ideal for the strike zone of the last ~ 20yrs, where pitches above the waist were called balls. With umps now calling the higher strike hitting down on the ball becomes very difficult.
Ventura is also a Hriniak pupil who also has seen his ba suffer with the new strike zone.As was stated above, the "high strike" continues to be pretty much a myth. The only way it will ever come back is to put umps back behind the balloon, so they don't hide behind the catcher and can see the high pitch.

By the way, Ventura is having a pretty good year. Yeah, the average is down (.257 from a career .271,) but 19 HR and 57 RBI would look pretty good at third for the Sox. And, his average is up from his last two years with the Metropolitans.

doublem23
06-29-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
By the way, Ventura is having a pretty good year. Yeah, the average is down (.257 from a career .271,) but 19 HR and 57 RBI would look pretty good at third for the Sox. And, his average is up from his last two years with the Metropolitans.

True, but I think Robin's power surge has more to do with the fact that he's getting fat pitches to hit left and right because he's stuck in the middle of that Yankee lineup.