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View Full Version : Isn't it crazy this is Paul Konerko's best season?


ghostface36
08-30-2010, 08:14 PM
It blows my mind, paulie is having by far his best year in the MLB
the guy makes a good play in some fashion in every game this year

SephClone89
08-30-2010, 08:20 PM
Legend. Might end up in the top three or four in the MVP voting.

LITTLE NELL
08-30-2010, 08:25 PM
Lets hope the Sox re-sign him and he finishes his career on the Southside.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-30-2010, 08:26 PM
Lets hope the Sox re-sign him and he finishes his career on the Southside.I'm sure he'd like that... after being with the Sox so long he is probably settled-in to the point where he would take less money to stay here.

ewokpelts
08-30-2010, 08:45 PM
contract year-itis

thomas35forever
08-30-2010, 08:51 PM
He won't win MVP, but he's had quite a year. The Sox would be stupid to let him walk.

LITTLE NELL
08-30-2010, 08:52 PM
contract year-itis

Too bad AJ did not come down with it.

Nelfox02
08-30-2010, 09:10 PM
He won't win MVP, but he's had quite a year. The Sox would be stupid to let him walk.

yep, and I think they make him an offer considering the potential FA out there in our price range and the less than stellar options we have on our farm, bringing back Paulie makes sense

2 year deal with a club option on year 3 would be as far as I want to go tho....I dont think he will be nearly as productive next year but I expect him to be still around career averages......2012 and 2013.........eh, not so much probably

Noneck
08-30-2010, 09:14 PM
after being with the Sox so long he is probably settled-in to the point where he would take less money to stay here.

That may not be the case, this is also his last chance for another fat contract.

Sunnydre
08-30-2010, 09:30 PM
He won't win MVP, but he's had quite a year. The Sox would be stupid to let him walk.

if the Sox catch the twins, he will.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 09:39 PM
if the Sox catch the twins, he will.

http://fullcountpitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/cano.jpg

"Did you forget about me?"

Boondock Saint
08-30-2010, 09:43 PM
http://fullcountpitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/cano.jpg

"Did you forget about me?"

Or Josh Hamilton.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 09:44 PM
Or Josh Hamilton.

I almost included him, too. I get the feeling that Cano will be the sexy pick.

Konerko doesn't really have a chance, in my opinion.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2010, 09:46 PM
I agree; he is having a spectacular year, and I am exceedingly pleased!

ghostface36
08-30-2010, 09:46 PM
"Did you forget about me?"
yup it'll be cano or hamilton but paul has definitely been a top 5 player in the AL this season
and i dont think its a contract year thing-paul is the face of the sox whatever we give him for an extension he'll have had deserved

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 09:48 PM
I agree; he is having a spectacular year, and I am exceedingly pleased!

Who hacked Frater's account?

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2010, 09:49 PM
Who hacked Frater's account?

Imagine what the Sox could get in return if they traded him! :tongue:

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 09:50 PM
Imagine what the Sox could get in return if they traded him! :tongue:

Welcome back, buddy!

ghostface36
08-30-2010, 09:50 PM
Lets hope the Sox re-sign him and he finishes his career on the Southside.
i hope this is the case as i see paul as the face of the franchise and definitely the leader of the team i want him to retire a member of the sox

getonbckthr
08-30-2010, 09:52 PM
Paulie is at best 4th in MVP voting. You got Hamilton, Cano, Cabrera, hell Vlad was a threat until a recent cold streak.

StillMissOzzie
08-30-2010, 10:02 PM
if the Sox catch the twins, he will.

Not while Josh Hamilton in Texas is still breathing...

SMO
:gulp:

soxinem1
08-30-2010, 10:24 PM
Imagine what the Sox could get in return if they traded him! :tongue:

In the last off-season? Salary relief....

DumpJerry
08-30-2010, 10:54 PM
contract year-itis

Bingo! It's funny how nothing like a contract year brings out the best. I say all players should be signed to either one year contracts or non-guaranteed multi-year (NFL-style) contracts.

Too bad AJ did not come down with it.

He's immune to it. The Sox don't have a viable replacement in the farms and there are no Johnny Benches who will be FAs this year.

Imagine what the Sox could get in return if they traded him! :tongue:
Nothing. As a FA signing, they can't trade him until June, 2011.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2010, 11:02 PM
Nothing. As a FA signing, they can't trade him until June, 2011.

Did I really need to put that in teal?

Randar68
08-30-2010, 11:13 PM
It blows my mind, paulie is having by far his best year in the MLB
the guy makes a good play in some fashion in every game this year

He also has an unbelievable ability to end late inning rallies with double play balls and pop outs. It is really clutch.

DumpJerry
08-30-2010, 11:14 PM
He also has an unbelievable ability to end late inning rallies with double play balls and pop outs. It is really clutch.
The (other) big Sox fan in my officer several years ago gave Paulie a nickname: "6-4-3." But he does admit that this year has been a good (contract) year.

Randar68
08-30-2010, 11:31 PM
The (other) big Sox fan in my officer several years ago gave Paulie a nickname: "6-4-3." But he does admit that this year has been a good (contract) year.

GIDPauly. Seems to have cut down on them the past 2 years but just saves them for when they really "count"...

Chez
08-30-2010, 11:49 PM
This is the first year I can remember that Paulie hasn't gone through a 3 week funk where he looks horrible. He's been great all year and he deserves a new contract.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-30-2010, 11:51 PM
Lets hope the Sox re-sign him and he finishes his career on the Southside.

I hope, but I don't see it happening. It's his last contract he'll ever sign. I see the Halos giving him one of those over the top offers to be their DH and him taking it to be closer to home. But I hope I'm very wrong.

Dub25
08-31-2010, 12:03 AM
He won't win MVP, but he's had quite a year. The Sox would be stupid to let him walk.

I agree. A 2 year contract with maybe a 3rd year option while Viciedo gets ready for 1st, i believe is a safe move.

Dub25
08-31-2010, 12:05 AM
That may not be the case, this is also his last chance for another fat contract.

Maybe or maybe not... ask J Dye how that worked out.

Dub25
08-31-2010, 12:06 AM
He also has an unbelievable ability to end late inning rallies with double play balls and pop outs. It is really clutch.

C'mon, really. Go away.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 12:06 AM
Maybe or maybe not... ask J Dye how that worked out.

Jermaine Dye's 2009 season isn't in the same stratosphere as Konerko's 2010.

Dub25
08-31-2010, 12:08 AM
Jermaine Dye's 2009 season isn't in the same stratosphere as Konerko's 2010.

No but it seems like in the recession post steroid era, guys in the mid 30's are being left out. Not saying paulie would but he may not get that 2nd fat contract that some suggest.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 12:10 AM
No but it seems like in the recession post steroid era, guys in the mid 30's are being left out. Not saying paulie would but he may not get that 2nd fat contract that some suggest.

That's a fair point for sure, but there's no way Konerko will be left out in the cold. You have to think that the Sox are interested in bringing Konerko back, when they were obviously done with Dye after last season.

Hopefully we'll Konerko back in a Sox uni for the next couple years.

Dub25
08-31-2010, 12:20 AM
That's a fair point for sure, but there's no way Konerko will be left out in the cold. You have to think that the Sox are interested in bringing Konerko back, when they were obviously done with Dye after last season.

Hopefully we'll Konerko back in a Sox uni for the next couple years.

I dont think he will, either. However, I hope the Sox realize they need someone at a high priced posistion.

DumpJerry
08-31-2010, 12:22 AM
C'mon, really. Go away.
Why? He was speaking the truth.

ghostface36
08-31-2010, 06:19 AM
He also has an unbelievable ability to end late inning rallies with double play balls and pop outs. It is really clutch.
he has hit into 8 double plays the whole season not too bad imo
plus his line is .320/.401/.985 32 HR'S which im positive there were a few 'clutch' situations wher e he succeeded. Also, im not saying paul is going to win the MVP, but he is having his best season of his career, and its awesome to watch

LITTLE NELL
08-31-2010, 07:40 AM
I hope, but I don't see it happening. It's his last contract he'll ever sign. I see the Halos giving him one of those over the top offers to be their DH and him taking it to be closer to home. But I hope I'm very wrong.

I'm wondering if Paulie saw what happenned on Frank Thomas Day, if he walks, I don't think he gets a day, his number retired and his picture up on the wall in left field. That has to mean something to a player and I think it does to Paulie. As far as playing closer to home, he has the rest of his life once he retires to be at home.

Craig Grebeck
08-31-2010, 08:17 AM
Why? He was speaking the truth.
I'll take his .994 OPS in high leverage situations.

This is the first year I can remember that Paulie hasn't gone through a 3 week funk where he looks horrible. He's been great all year and he deserves a new contract.
That was the month of May.

ewokpelts
08-31-2010, 08:34 AM
GIDPauly. Seems to have cut down on them the past 2 years but just saves them for when they really "count"...He's the DP King to me.

Funny that his nickname in the clubhouse is King recently.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 09:13 AM
I'm wondering if Paulie saw what happened on Frank Thomas Day, if he walks, I don't think he gets a day, his number retired and his picture up on the wall in left field. That has to mean something to a player and I think it does to Paulie. As far as playing closer to home, he has the rest of his life once he retires to be at home.

I love PK, but I do not see his number getting retired. He will be on the sox Hall of the very good. I mean if we retired PK's #, then you have to argue Buehrle should get his number retired, then probably Ozzie too. Our entire outfield would be covered with retired numbers, which would kind of lessen its value in my opinion. I don't want this to become a joke where we have something like 10 numbers retired. I think retired numbers are for the absolute greats, HOF type players. As much as I love PK, he is not an absolute great and will be nowhere near a HOF player.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 09:25 AM
GIDPauly. Seems to have cut down on them the past 2 years but just saves them for when they really "count"...

Yeah, the 1.000+ OPS in high leverage situations, the .338/.425/.538 slash line with RISP, the 1 double play he's grounded into in innings 7-9...

:rolleyes:

Konerko's having one of the best offensive seasons in White Sox history. Only a ****ing lunatic can't see that.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 09:26 AM
I'll take his .994 OPS in high leverage situations.

This may be true, but I think in one week when the Sox were scuffling he ended 3 different games with the tying or winning run in scoring position and I happened to see all of them, so it was a bit of a "fresh imprint on the brain" kind of thing. He has had his moments, but he is a rally killer, either with GIDP's or with him being a base clogger than needs a double to score from 2nd base.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 09:28 AM
Konerko's having one of the best offensive seasons in White Sox history. Only a ****ing lunatic can't see that.

He's having a career year, but now you're looking like the lunatic saying this is one of the best in Sox history. Definitely not a top 10 season in Sox history and I would be shocked if it was top 25 to be honest. And I am glad he is having this career year, but it doesn't change the history of his base clogging, 2 month-swoon every year, GIDP-laden career.

Craig Grebeck
08-31-2010, 09:29 AM
This may be true, but I think in one week when the Sox were scuffling he ended 3 different games with the tying or winning run in scoring position and I happened to see all of them, so it was a bit of a "fresh imprint on the brain" kind of thing. He has had his moments, but he is a rally killer, either with GIDP's or with him being a base clogger than needs a double to score from 2nd base.
Great evidence of anecdotal arguments being useless.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 09:29 AM
He's having a career year, but now you're looking like the lunatic saying this is one of the best in Sox history. Definitely not a top 10 season in Sox history and I would be shocked if it was top 25 to be honest.

His current OPS is #14 in franchise history. This is easily... easily... a Top 20 season in White Sox history.

easily

Noneck
08-31-2010, 09:30 AM
Maybe or maybe not... ask J Dye how that worked out.

Yea I know JD's year last year compares to PK's of this year.:rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
08-31-2010, 09:33 AM
His current OPS is #14 in franchise history. This is easily... easily... a Top 20 season in White Sox history.

easily
By WAR, it ain't even top 50.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 09:34 AM
His current OPS is #14 in franchise history. This is easily... easily... a Top 20 season in White Sox history.

easily

If you consider OPS to be the only metric by which you measure offensive success and discount what the rest of the league has done in those years and what ballpark he plays in.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 09:46 AM
If you consider OPS to be the only metric by which you measure offensive success and discount what the rest of the league has done in those years and what ballpark he plays in.

OPS+ of 160 is #18 in Sox history.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 09:50 AM
By WAR, it ain't even top 50.

I'm not a huge fan of WAR, especially when comparing across different eras.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 09:50 AM
OPS+ of 160 is #18 in Sox history.

And wins above replacement (which accounts for the rest of the league) he isn't in the top 50 in franchise history.

So what's your point? That if you discount the era in which he played that it's EASILY one of the BEST EVER (#18) seasons in franchise history?


Ummm, sure, ok. Too bad that doesn't mean diddly since you threw out the adjustments to measure the performance vs his peers.

And I am thrilled he is having the season he is. It just means we will offer arbitration and get 2 top draft picks instead of potentially none.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 09:56 AM
By WAR, it ain't even top 50.

Good god, y'all.

Dibbs
08-31-2010, 10:00 AM
I really think we need to keep Konerko. He has been extremely consistent despite a down year or two out of ten plus years. Can you imagine this lineup without Konerko AND Manny?! Yikes, those are our two best hitters. We will be in some major trouble next year if we let him walk.

LITTLE NELL
08-31-2010, 10:01 AM
I love PK, but I do not see his number getting retired. He will be on the sox Hall of the very good. I mean if we retired PK's #, then you have to argue Buehrle should get his number retired, then probably Ozzie too. Our entire outfield would be covered with retired numbers, which would kind of lessen its value in my opinion. I don't want this to become a joke where we have something like 10 numbers retired. I think retired numbers are for the absolute greats, HOF type players. As much as I love PK, he is not an absolute great and will be nowhere near a HOF player.

There are a few of guys on that wall that are not in the HOF, Pierce, Minoso and Baines and once his career is over Paulie will have numbers exceeding Minoso and Baines except for BA and stolen bases.
As of today, Konerko is 2nd in HRs, 3rd in RBISs, 5th in hits and 3rd in total bases. What more do you need to get on the wall.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 10:04 AM
There are a few of guys on that wall that are not in the HOF, Pierce, Minoso and Baines and once his career is over Paulie will have numbers exceeding Minoso and Baines except for BA and stolen bases.
As of today, Konerko is 2nd in HRs, 3rd in RBISs, 5th in hits and 3rd in total bases. What more do you need to get on the wall.

Konerko's on the wall for sure. Might not get a statue, but #14 deserves to be retired.

Chez
08-31-2010, 10:05 AM
Good god, y'all.

What is it good for?

TheOldRoman
08-31-2010, 10:18 AM
Konerko's on the wall for sure. Might not get a statue, but #14 deserves to be retired.I believe the plan is to make statues for all retired numbers, plus maybe a few more (I am sure Hawk will get one, probably Nancy too). Either way, I think there is zero chance the Sox let him leave now. He will be on the Sox for 14 or 15 years, a fan favorite who is well liked by management, and he hit arguably the biggest homer in team history. He may not be a hall of famer, but damn sure he deserves his number retired.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:25 AM
Konerko's on the wall for sure. Might not get a statue, but #14 deserves to be retired.

Then I think Buehrle and Ozzie goes up on the wall. Will we have the most retired numbers in baseball then? I just think that is kind of crazy, we have not been that successful over the last century nor have we had that many "all time greats".
I love PK and Buehrle, I just don't think since they put up very good numbers (not great) over a long time period deserves their number being retired. Harold was my first favorite player on the Sox, but I question if his number should be retired. Its just my opinion. I love these player, and think they are very good. I just am hesitant to start handing over retired numbers, I think that should be reserved for very, very special players. Like Frank Thomas. My fear is one day we have regrets over retiring a number or it becomes a joke, like having Jerry Krause name hanging from the rafters of the UC, that's a joke.

asindc
08-31-2010, 10:25 AM
contract year-itis

This.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:26 AM
Then I think Buehrle and Ozzie goes up on the wall. Will we have the most retired numbers in baseball then? I just think that is kind of crazy, we have not been that successful over the last century nor have we had that many "all time greats".
I love PK and Buehrle, I just don't think since they put up very good numbers, not great over a long time period deserves their number being retired. Harold was my first favorite player on the Sox, but I question if his number should be retired. Its just my opinion. I love these player, and think they are very good. I just am hesitant to start handing over retired numbers, I think that should be reserved for very, very special players. Like Frank Thomas. My fear is one day we have regrets over retiring a number or it becomes a joke, like having Jerry Krause name hanging from the rafters of the UC, that's a joke.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1236/1430891068_838803c872.jpg?v=0

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:28 AM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1236/1430891068_838803c872.jpg?v=0


I love the White Sox, but our organization is far from the New York Yankees.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:28 AM
Konerko's on the wall for sure. Might not get a statue, but #14 deserves to be retired.

Organization has always loved him and Jerry loves him some "corporate man"...

That being said, if he re-ups with the Sox, I imagine that cements his spot out there on the wall. If he goes elsewhere, I think it might still be up for debate. We shall see. He has had a very solid career, but he's a 4-time All-Star in 12 years with the club, never finished higher than 6th in MVP voting (will finish 4th-6th this year I would guess) or won a gold glove or silver slugger award...

Minoso for example was a 9 time All Star, 3 time GG winner, and finished 4th in MVP voting in 3 different seasons. That's a much more distinguished career no matter how you slice it.

Konerko and Robin Ventura are probably in the same ballpark there, even though Robin Ventura had 6 gold gloves (5 with the Sox) and Konerko's current 4.7 WAR would be the 6th best WAR season in Ventura's career.

ewokpelts
08-31-2010, 10:35 AM
Buehrle and Konerko get thier numbers retired, even if they leave when their contracts are up. Team leaders and fan favorites from the WS team.

Ozzie will get his eventually. It just depends on how he leaves here. If it's a retirement aftera along managerial career, it'll be quick. If he gets fired or leave for another team. Wait a while.

Hawk? Probably some sort of recognition. Maybe not a statue.

Nancy? Not a statue, but probably a plaque at her booth.

Long shots? JD and Ventura, although I can see them getting a dual number retirement ala what the hawks did with Keith Magnuson and Pierre Pilote.

Something the Sox could do is resurrect the Sox Hall of Fame, and induct members into it. That way, you can get popular players who dont quite deserve retired # / statue status.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:35 AM
I love the White Sox, but our organization is far from the New York Yankees.

You asked if the White Sox would have the most retired numbers in baseball, and the answer is no.

The Yankees currently have 17 (16 technically, since #8 is retired twice) retired numbers, with at least one more (#2) coming soon. The White Sox currently have 10 (6 of those are current hall of famers, and a seventh will be in Cooperstown soon enough).

Even if the Sox retire #13, #14 and #56, they've got a ways to go before they catch the Yankees.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:36 AM
He has had a very solid career, but he's a 4-time All-Star in 12 years with the club, never finished higher than 6th in MVP voting (will finish 4th-6th this year I would guess) or won a gold glove or silver slugger award...

Minoso for example was a 9 time All Star, 3 time GG winner, and finished 4th in MVP voting in 3 different seasons. That's a much more distinguished career no matter how you slice it.

Konerko and Robin Ventura are probably in the same ballpark there, even though Robin Ventura had 6 gold gloves (5 with the Sox) and Konerko's current 4.7 WAR would be the 6th best WAR season in Ventura's career.

This is all I am saying, if you look at his stats, would you call him "great". I think being an important part on the World Series team has translated to being an all time great, which is simply not the case. I think the Robin Ventura comment is a good one. So, if we retire PK's #, do we retire #56? If there is an argument for Buerhle, then what about Black Jack?

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:41 AM
You asked if the White Sox would have the most retired numbers in baseball, and the answer is no.

The Yankees currently have 17 (16 technically, since #8 is retired twice) retired numbers, with at least one more (#2) coming soon. The White Sox currently have 10 (6 of those are current hall of famers, and a seventh will be in Cooperstown soon enough).

Even if the Sox retire #13, #14 and #56, they've got a ways to go before they catch the Yankees.

This is the type of standard I hold for retiring numbers. PK is nowhere near a HF player, and although he has put up organizational high numbers, he was never considered to be an elite player in his era.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:42 AM
This is all I am saying, if you look at his stats, would you call him "great". I think being an important part on the World Series team has translated to being an all time great, which is simply not the case. I think the Robin Ventura comment is a good one. So, if we retire PK's #, do we retire #56? If there is an argument for Buerhle, then what about Black Jack?

McDowell pitched seven years with the Sox, and Buehrle is in his eleventh.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:45 AM
McDowell pitched seven years with the Sox, and Buehrle is in his eleventh.

Should Ozzie Guillen and Robin Ventura have their numbers retired too? Just trying to compile the list here since I think you underestimate how many of these "good but not HOF or even borderline HOF" players the Sox have had in their history.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:47 AM
McDowell pitched seven years with the Sox, and Buehrle is in his eleventh.

He was also a 3-time AS, Cy Young winner, finished second in the CY another year, and won 20 games twice.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:47 AM
McDowell pitched seven years with the Sox, and Buehrle is in his eleventh.

Even with Buehrle being my favorite player on the Sox now, I think McDowell had more dominant years in a Sox uni then Buehrle has had with fewer years to do so.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:48 AM
This is the type of standard I hold for retiring numbers. PK is nowhere near a HF player, and although he has put up organizational high numbers, he was never considered to be an elite player in his era.

Totally fair. I'll continue to play devil's advocate and mention that of the 17 numbers retired by the Yankees, six of them are not in the hall of fame.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 10:49 AM
Should Ozzie Guillen and Robin Ventura have their numbers retired too? Just trying to compile the list here since I think you underestimate how many of these "good but not HOF or even borderline HOF" players the Sox have had in their history.

As much as I love Ventura, no. Ozzie is a strange case, on his merits as a player alone, no, but his managerial career active it's at least a debate, IMO, especially if he wins another World Series or has a Gardenhire-like run consistently steering the Sox to the play-offs.

Konerko and Buehrle? I say yes. Even if both of them decide to retire before today's game and never wear a Sox uniform again, I think they've done enough.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:49 AM
Should Ozzie Guillen and Robin Ventura have their numbers retired too? Just trying to compile the list here since I think you underestimate how many of these "good but not HOF or even borderline HOF" players the Sox have had in their history.

No for Ventura, maybe for Ozzie (depending on the rest of his managerial career with the Sox).

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:52 AM
Even with Buehrle being my favorite player on the Sox now, I think McDowell had more dominant years in a Sox uni then Buehrle has had with fewer years to do so.

I think tenure should play a part in whether a number is retired.

You can't overlook Mark's ASG appearances (four), gold glove, World Series title and no hitters (two, one obviously the perfect game).

Based on these facts, along with time spent with the Sox, Buehrle is more of a candidate for a retired number than McDowell.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:53 AM
Totally fair. I'll continue to play devil's advocate and mention that of the 17 numbers retired by the Yankees, six of them are not in the hall of fame.

I am not saying they have to be HOF, but they better be close and had better have been a very dominant player/elite for a few years, eg Roger Maris.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:54 AM
No for Ventura, maybe for Ozzie (depending on the rest of his managerial career with the Sox).

Given his position, Ventura was a better player than Konerko. I don't understand that argument. It's just because Konerko played more years than Robin in a Sox uniform? Robin was more universally beloved by Sox fans and was one of the best defensive 3B of his era while still putting up numbers on par with Konerko's (aside from this year). He was a more dominant player than Konerko given their positions.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 10:57 AM
Given his position, Ventura was a better player than Konerko. I don't understand that argument. It's just because Konerko played more years than Robin in a Sox uniform? Robin was more universally beloved by Sox fans and was one of the best defensive 3B of his era while still putting up numbers on par with Konerko's (aside from this year). He was a more dominant player than Konerko given their positions.

Tenure has to be taken into account. Dick Allen's 1972 season is one of the 3 best seasons ever by a Sox player (Frank's 1994 and Belle's 1998 the other two). Nobody is clamoring for #15 to be retired, because he was here for 3 seasons.

Also, and I think this gets taken into account, as well, Robin Ventura was not a key figure on a World Series-winning team in Chicago. Paul Konerko was.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 10:58 AM
I think tenure should play a part in whether a number is retired.

You can't overlook Mark's ASG appearances (four), gold glove, World Series title and no hitters (two, one obviously the perfect game).

Based on these facts, along with time spent with the Sox, Buehrle is more of a candidate for a retired number than McDowell.

In my opinion playing a long time for the same team does not mean your number should be retired. One gold glove? Okay good accomplishment, but I think you need more then 1 to compare winning a Cy Young Award.
Having 2 no-no's, great accomplishment, but was only 2 games, not like 2 dominating seasons. People have their stuff going good for a game and get a no-no, eg Edwin Jackson.
Can't argue against the WS title, however if we are using this as part of the criteria to get your number retired, there are 24 others in 2005 not to mention the players on our other WS winning teams.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 10:59 AM
I am not saying they have to be HOF, but they better be close and had better have been a very dominant player/elite for a few years, eg Roger Maris.

I gotcha. I really believe that Konerko has been under-appreciated for much of his career. He's put up solid numbers throughout his career, (save 2003 and his injury-plagued 2008), played solid defense at 1B, and helped lead the Sox to their first championship in 88 years. He's no hall of famer, but there's no doubt in my mind that his #14 will be on the wall someday.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 11:00 AM
In my opinion playing a long time for the same team does not mean your number should be retired. One gold glove? Okay good accomplishment, but I think you need more then 1 to compare winning a Cy Young Award.
Having 2 no-no's, great accomplishment, but was only 2 games, not like 2 dominating seasons. People have their stuff going good for a game and get a no-no, eg Edwin Jackson.
Can't argue against the WS title, however if we are using this as part of the criteria to get your number retired, there are 24 others in 2005 not to mention the players on our other WS winning teams.

Come on, man, you know what he meant. The World Series is only part of Buehrle and Konerko's resume and what puts their otherwise good, but not great, accomplishments over the top.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 11:00 AM
Based on these facts, along with time spent with the Sox, Buehrle is more of a candidate for a retired number than McDowell.

I generally agree, but he's never finished higher than 5th in CY voting and unless he gets to 300 wins (which means he has some great years over the next 6-8 years), really isn't a HOF-type player. Solid player that makes an All-Star game every couple years, yes. But he is averaging 12 wins a season over the last 5 years...

doublem23
08-31-2010, 11:03 AM
I gotcha. I really believe that Konerko has been under-appreciated for much of his career. He's put up solid numbers throughout his career, (save 2003 and his injury-plagued 2008), played solid defense at 1B, and helped lead the Sox to their first championship in 88 years. He's no hall of famer, but there's no doubt in my mind that his #14 will be on the wall someday.

It should be noted that if Konerko hits 8 more homers this year, he joins A-Rod, Thome, and Ortiz as the only active AL players with 3+ 40-homer seasons.

(I guess Manny makes it 4 now).

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 11:04 AM
I generally agree, but he's never finished higher than 5th in CY voting and unless he gets to 300 wins (which means he has some great years over the next 6-8 years), really isn't a HOF-type player. Solid player that makes an All-Star game every couple years, yes. But he is averaging 12 wins a season over the last 5 years...

I'm not advocating Buehrle for the hall of fame.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 11:04 AM
I gotcha. I really believe that Konerko has been under-appreciated for much of his career. He's put up solid numbers throughout his career, (save 2003 and his injury-plagued 2008), played solid defense at 1B, and helped lead the Sox to their first championship in 88 years. He's no hall of famer, but there's no doubt in my mind that his #14 will be on the wall someday.

I respect that. I understand why he probably will get his number retired. I just don't think he should, because in my opinion it waters down the standards a bit. Frank Thomas, as a player was way more dominating then PK and his career is nowhere close to PK. Now if we retire #14, we are putting them at almost the same level.

Someone else had mentioned the Sox should have a HOF, where they put in players not quite up to the standards of numbers retired, but pretty close.

TDog
08-31-2010, 11:07 AM
contract year-itis

Imagine how great baseball would be if every year were a contract year for every player.

ewokpelts
08-31-2010, 11:07 AM
You asked if the White Sox would have the most retired numbers in baseball, and the answer is no.

The Yankees currently have 17 (16 technically, since #8 is retired twice) retired numbers, with at least one more (#2) coming soon. The White Sox currently have 10 (6 of those are current hall of famers, and a seventh will be in Cooperstown soon enough).

Even if the Sox retire #13, #14 and #56, they've got a ways to go before they catch the Yankees.#42 will be retired for Mariano Rivera

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 11:08 AM
#42 will be retired for Mariano Rivera

I was going to mention that; 42 is retired for Robinson, obviously, so I didn't want to pad the numbers too much. :cool:

Randar68
08-31-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm not advocating Buehrle for the hall of fame.

My argument for a player to have their number retired is that they should be a dominating player of their era and have a long enough career with the Sox to have warranted it.

Unless you meet both of those criteria, no dice. Baines is a borderline HoF player who had a long career with the Sox and is hurt by his DH status for the second 2/3rds of his career.

Borderline HoF players with a long tenure get up there, HoF players with some significant enough tenure with the Sox go up there...

PK, Buehrle, Ventura, Ozzie, etc are not even borderline HoF players, IMO, so they don't meet one of my 2 criteria.

Stoky44
08-31-2010, 11:13 AM
My argument for a player to have their number retired is that they should be a dominating player of their era and have a long enough career with the Sox to have warranted it.

Unless you meet both of those criteria, no dice. Baines is a borderline HoF player who had a long career with the Sox and is hurt by his DH status for the second 2/3rds of his career.

Borderline HoF players with a long tenure get up there, HoF players with some significant enough tenure with the Sox go up there...

PK, Buehrle, Ventura, Ozzie, etc are not even borderline HoF players, IMO, so they don't meet one of my 2 criteria.

Couldn't have said it better, I will now steal those 2 criteria and hold them as my own, haha. But, this has been what I am trying to say.

hi im skot
08-31-2010, 11:16 AM
My argument for a player to have their number retired is that they should be a dominating player of their era and have a long enough career with the Sox to have warranted it.

Unless you meet both of those criteria, no dice. Baines is a borderline HoF player who had a long career with the Sox and is hurt by his DH status for the second 2/3rds of his career.

Borderline HoF players with a long tenure get up there, HoF players with some significant enough tenure with the Sox go up there...

PK, Buehrle, Ventura, Ozzie, etc are not even borderline HoF players, IMO, so they don't meet one of my 2 criteria.

That's fair. And in my opinion, I don't think a player necessarily needs to be HoF caliber to have their number retired.

I like this debate, though. :smile:

Craig Grebeck
08-31-2010, 11:33 AM
OPS+ of 160 is #18 in Sox history.
By OPS+, it sure is a top 20 season. I think we're too quick to historicize what is a very good season, but one that is not in the elite echelon of a long and storied franchise.

Moses_Scurry
08-31-2010, 11:48 AM
Winning the World Series will result in retired numbers. If the Sox had won a World Series in '90-'94, we would probably see guys like Ventura and Black Jack on the wall. It also would mean that those guys would have been kept on the team longer probably.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 11:59 AM
Winning the World Series will result in retired numbers. If the Sox had won a World Series in '90-'94, we would probably see guys like Ventura and Black Jack on the wall. It also would mean that those guys would have been kept on the team longer probably.

McDowell's hip injury had a lot to do with it, IIRC. Sox ended up making the right call there. Ventura's best statistical year was his first year with the Mets but it was a STEEP decline after that and he was making top-flight money at the time.

kufram
08-31-2010, 01:45 PM
I think the wall and the retired number needs to be backed up with some impressive stats, but maybe not defined by them. Nor does membership to the HOF define what a player means to a city and a franchise.

To me, Paul Konerko, deserves the honour when the time comes. How many years have I heard the Paulie chant when he's at the plate and we need a hit? What other players have that king of fan base? Yes, he's a DP machine at times. That is a weakness, but PK has been clutch for the White Sox more than anyone I can think of. Averages don't take clutch into account but there are guys that you want at the plate in a tense situation. He is the one for the white Sox and has been for a long time.

Give me a guy that hits .265 but makes the hits when it really matters over a guy that hits .295 but not so much under pressure.

I think PK will be on the wall because I think the fans will want him there.

Craig Grebeck
08-31-2010, 01:51 PM
If we had to pick one player from this era to put on the wall, I'm going with Buehrle over Konerko.

Moses_Scurry
08-31-2010, 01:54 PM
If we had to pick one player from this era to put on the wall, I'm going with Buehrle over Konerko.

I'd agree with that, but I don't see why they can't both go up on the wall. There's no rule that says only 1 player per era can make it. Fisk and Baines are both up. I don't think I'd put Ozzie on the wall unless he stays for another 10 or more years.

hawkjt
08-31-2010, 01:54 PM
I think the wall and the retired number needs to be backed up with some impressive stats, but maybe not defined by them. Nor does membership to the HOF define what a player means to a city and a franchise.

To me, Paul Konerko, deserves the honour when the time comes. How many years have I heard the Paulie chant when he's at the plate and we need a hit? What other players have that king of fan base? Yes, he's a DP machine at times. That is a weakness, but PK has been clutch for the White Sox more than anyone I can think of. Averages don't take clutch into account but there are guys that you want at the plate in a tense situation. He is the one for the white Sox and has been for a long time.

Give me a guy that hits .265 but makes the hits when it really matters over a guy that hits .295 but not so much under pressure.

I think PK will be on the wall because I think the fans will want him there.


I agree. There are two members of the lone world series title in 90 some years who merit consideration..PK and MB.
Buehrle has:
thrown over 200 innings every year for a decade
Started and won an allstar game.
started and won a world series game.
saved a world series game.
pitched a perfect game and a no-hitter
had 56 straight starts of 6 + innings..
basically, stuff that no other Sox hurler has ever done or ever will do,most likely.

And,even more than PK, MB was the essence of this team for over a decade. He is the zeitgeist if you will. Like our own Mr. Baseball. He connects with the fans like no other player,imo, because he is like an overgrown kid out there,making no pretense that he is not enjoying and appreciating the honor and genetic luck,and hard work that put him in such a wonderful position. I think PK and MB will be honored at the end of their careers in some fashion, depending on how it plays out..but if they each sign another deal,and have solid finishes to their careers as Sox...they will get it,and deservedly so. When the Sox win their next world series, we will worry about excessive honors and reduced number availability.

mbwhitesox
08-31-2010, 01:58 PM
My argument for a player to have their number retired is that they should be a dominating player of their era and have a long enough career with the Sox to have warranted it.

Unless you meet both of those criteria, no dice. Baines is a borderline HoF player who had a long career with the Sox and is hurt by his DH status for the second 2/3rds of his career.

Borderline HoF players with a long tenure get up there, HoF players with some significant enough tenure with the Sox go up there...

PK, Buehrle, Ventura, Ozzie, etc are not even borderline HoF players, IMO, so they don't meet one of my 2 criteria.

I agree on Buehrle not being a HOFer, but I could still see him having his number retired because of the perfect game and the consecutive opening day starts record. Not to mention he has always been a fan favorite. I guess it depends on how the last few years of his career play out.

ghostface36
08-31-2010, 02:18 PM
what is everyone arguing about? just appreciate how great paulie is playing this year

kufram
08-31-2010, 02:22 PM
I see no need to pick Buehrle OVER Konerko, or vice versa. There's room for two guys that define an era of White Sox baseball, both of whom stayed here because they wanted to.

doublem23
08-31-2010, 02:27 PM
I agree on Buehrle not being a HOFer, but I could still see him having his number retired because of the perfect game and the consecutive opening day starts record. Not to mention he has always been a fan favorite. I guess it depends on how the last few years of his career play out.

I would put him up there right now. Retired numbers don't have to be saved for just Hall of Fame-worthy players, that's what the Hall of Fame is for. Just because Buehrle or Konerko won't merit much consideration from the BBWAAA doesn't negate the success, both team and personal, they've each had here and what each has meant to this organization. They've been the two mainstays of what is arguably the best decade in White Sox history.

I, personally, think they each deserve it.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:28 PM
I agree on Buehrle not being a HOFer, but I could still see him having his number retired because of the perfect game and the consecutive opening day starts record. Not to mention he has always been a fan favorite. I guess it depends on how the last few years of his career play out.

Chris Singleton hit for the cycle. So what? One or 2 games doesn't make a career. If you want to talk MB number retired, stick to career long accomplishments, IMO. He has been a very solid starter, but never dominant, never a real #1, never a spectacular strikeout guy, not one who is going to set any kind of K, ERA, or wins records...

Take your emotions as a fan out of it.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:30 PM
I see no need to pick Buehrle OVER Konerko, or vice versa. There's room for two guys that define an era of White Sox baseball, both of whom stayed here because they wanted to.

So these days an era is equivalent to 5 years?

Man, the 30 second sports clip has apparently erased half of recorded human history.

SephClone89
08-31-2010, 10:40 PM
Chris Singleton hit for the cycle. So what? One or 2 games doesn't make a career. If you want to talk MB number retired, stick to career long accomplishments, IMO. He has been a very solid starter, but never dominant, never a real #1, never a spectacular strikeout guy, not one who is going to set any kind of K, ERA, or wins records...

Take your emotions as a fan out of it.

Why? That's what retiring ****ing numbers is about.

SephClone89
08-31-2010, 10:41 PM
So these days an era is equivalent to 5 years?

Man, the 30 second sports clip has apparently erased half of recorded human history.

Ten years.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:45 PM
Ten years.

Frank Thomas defines this era of white Sox baseball (post strike era). Konerko hasn't been a "leader" on this team until really the WS year in 2005. Until then he was an enigma wrapped in an enigma.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 10:51 PM
Why? That's what retiring ****ing numbers is about.
Newsflash. Fans don't decide whose numbers are retired.

SephClone89
08-31-2010, 10:52 PM
Newsflash. Fans don't decide whose numbers are retired.

No ****.

My point was that emotional sentiment and attachment between an organization and a player does decide whose numbers are retired.

jshanahanjr
08-31-2010, 11:13 PM
Konerko will go to the HOF in 2025 after he hits 500 HR's in a White Sox uniform:). I don't see his bat speed slowing down @ all. Hell he's a much better hitter than he was 8 years ago, and he was pretty good in 2002. Imagine how great he would be if he could just run with just average speed? A .300 career batting average is what he would have.

God Bless Paul Konerko! A true American hero!

ilsox7
08-31-2010, 11:22 PM
I foresee a joint ceremony with PK and MB getting their numbers retired along with Tadahito.

Randar68
08-31-2010, 11:39 PM
i foresee a joint ceremony with pk and mb getting their numbers retired along with tadahito.

potw!

Randar68
09-01-2010, 03:19 PM
He also has an unbelievable ability to end late inning rallies with double play balls and pop outs. It is really clutch.

Everyone keep moving... nothing to see here. Carry on.



Pauly, please forgive me! :gulp:

The Dude
09-01-2010, 04:25 PM
Maybe or maybe not... ask J Dye how that worked out.

Dye was horrible in 2009 especially the 2nd half. Get a clue!

The Dude
09-01-2010, 04:27 PM
I would put him up there right now. Retired numbers don't have to be saved for just Hall of Fame-worthy players, that's what the Hall of Fame is for. Just because Buehrle or Konerko won't merit much consideration from the BBWAAA doesn't negate the success, both team and personal, they've each had here and what each has meant to this organization. They've been the two mainstays of what is arguably the best decade in White Sox history.

I, personally, think they each deserve it.

Exactly. I was saying the same thing on Sunday. #14 AND #56 will be on that wall when they retire from baseball. If either or neither are not on the wall, I will be shocked. :gulp: