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CLR01
08-29-2010, 10:23 PM
Continue discussion of this dark day in White Sox history.

spawn
08-29-2010, 10:24 PM
You are the one who is threatening to boycott and not cheer for the Sox because they got this clown. If it bothers you that much, then go away. That's what I meant.

Where the hell did I say I was boycotting the team? Because I won't cheer Manny means I'm boycotting the team? Really?

Viva Medias B's
08-29-2010, 10:24 PM
If this blows up in our face, does it cost KW his job?

LoveYourSuit
08-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Continue discussion of this dark day in White Sox history.


A "dark day" in White Sox history to me is any one where Jenks or the rest of the bullpen decides to blow a game in the 9th inning.

In other words, we have seen plenty of "dark days" here this year.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Continue discussion of this dark day in White Sox history.

:rolleyes:

BigHurt3515
08-29-2010, 10:25 PM
If this blows up in our face, does it cost KW his job?

Ha no. Its 1 month of a season and what 4 mil?? Im pretty sure Jerry agreed to this as well since it is his money

twentywontowin
08-29-2010, 10:26 PM
You have to love the going all-in on this move.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:26 PM
If this blows up in our face, does it cost KW his job?

It's for a month, I don't see how this can cost Kenny his job. To be honest, I don't think anything Kenny does will ever cost him his job.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:27 PM
You have to love the going all-in on this move.

It helps the offense, yes, but it does not address the real thing that has been killing this team of late and that is the bullpen.

spawn
08-29-2010, 10:27 PM
You have to love the going all-in on this move.
Not really. :wink:

guillensdisciple
08-29-2010, 10:28 PM
It helps the offense, yes, but it does not address the real thing that has been killing this team of late and that is the bullpen.


Don't say that. It's all Ozzie's and Kotsay's fault.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:29 PM
Don't say that. It's all Ozzie's and Kotsay's fault.

You know if this team won the World Series in seven games, I'm sure someone will say they would have won it in six if not for Ozzie and Kotsay.

Dibbs
08-29-2010, 10:29 PM
This is a great day for the Sox. Manny is one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, and he still has something left in the tank. I don't care what kind of person he is because this will help the White Sox team win baseball games.

Not to mention, but Ozzie is an egotistical prick much like Manny.

Daver
08-29-2010, 10:30 PM
This is very typical of the White Sox, the pitching is not great, the defense is questionable at best, so the answer must be to go get a hitter, that will fix it.

aryzner
08-29-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm reading that the Sox are giving up no players and just taking on his salary. If this is true, what's not to like? (Aside from his personality and demeanor...)

I love it if it helps the Sox win games.

hi im skot
08-29-2010, 10:30 PM
He'll wear 99, I assume?

twentywontowin
08-29-2010, 10:31 PM
It helps the offense, yes, but it does not address the real thing that has been killing this team of late and that is the bullpen.

Injuries aside, I feel the bullpen is just a rough patch. It's nearly impossible to be that dominate for a whole season. Like anything else, hot streaks and cold streaks. We happened to catch a cold one at a bad time.

Not really. :wink:

Gotta roll the dice sometime. They could have went into September and sat on their hands, but KW is going to take the big gamble. If you're going to go down, do it with some fight. :gulp:

WhiteSox1989
08-29-2010, 10:31 PM
I guess I'm just not seeing a problem yet. Give it a couple weeks, and then we can all praise/complain about Manny.

JB98
08-29-2010, 10:31 PM
If this blows up in our face, does it cost KW his job?

No way. The Sox are already on the ropes, four games back in the loss column with 32 to go. This is a desperation move to try to breathe life back into a dying season.

I can't fault KW for trying. If I was him, I'd do the same thing.

I know Manny is a jackass. I'm not even going to argue that point. But we've had jackasses on the Sox before and lived to tell about it.

I just hope the jackass hits the ****ing ball up to his capabilities. If he does, I'll cheer him.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:32 PM
The is a great day for the Sox. Manny is one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, and he still has good something left in the tank. I don't care what kind of person he is because this will help the White Sox team win baseball games.

Not to mention, but Ozzie is an egotistical prick much like Manny.

I wouldn't say it's a great day. If we win the division, THAT will be a great day. This is just another day, we got a good hitter who might be a bit past his prime but can still help. This is not exactly an earth shattering move.

wassagstdu
08-29-2010, 10:33 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams' best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:33 PM
He'll wear 99, I assume?

I'd imagine, unless he wants number 24?

Craig Grebeck
08-29-2010, 10:35 PM
It's a fine move.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:35 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.

We didn't, we had Jose Canseco on this team in '01. We had Albert Belle on the team (who MIGHT have been a juicer), Jim Parque was a juicer. Christ, Pablo Ozuna got busted for steroids when he was with Philly in '08.

KMcMahon817
08-29-2010, 10:35 PM
He'll wear 99, I assume?

I hope he wears 24.

LoveYourSuit
08-29-2010, 10:35 PM
This is very typical of the White Sox, the pitching is not great, the defense is questionable at best, so the answer must be to go get a hitter, that will fix it.


So what should the Sox have done:scratch:

Did they not get a pitcher before the July 31st deadline, did we miss something?

Did Kenny know this bullpen was going to implode post July 31st?

There is just so much you can do post July 31st, besides, the Sox have crap in their farm to have pulled off any other moves.

This is a cash move, that's about the best they can do.

And Kudos for that "Cheap Ass Reinsdorf" to not care about spending.

Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

JB98
08-29-2010, 10:36 PM
It helps the offense, yes, but it does not address the real thing that has been killing this team of late and that is the bullpen.

But the bullpen didn't lose a single game on this homestand. The offense lost two, the starting pitching lost a third.

The Sox bullpen was good for 110 games, then had a nightmarish two weeks.

Over the long haul, the lack of a competent DH has been the biggest weakness on the roster. It just got addressed. We'll see if it's enough to get the Sox out of the hole this last month.

hi im skot
08-29-2010, 10:36 PM
I'd imagine, unless he wants number 24?

Viciedo has a chance to get himself a nice payday if Manny really wants 24.

Noneck
08-29-2010, 10:36 PM
This is very typical of the White Sox, the pitching is not great, the defense is questionable at best, so the answer must be to go get a hitter, that will fix it.

Sox loose a reliefer with a zero era for the year yesterday, have both setup guys on the DL, let 2 relief pitchers slip by them to the twins and they get a so called thumper for a month for 4M. It makes no sense to me either.

chisoxfanatic
08-29-2010, 10:37 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams' best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.
It's not like he's on anything NOW. Manny the Red Sox was on steroids. Manny the Dodger wasn't.

SI1020
08-29-2010, 10:38 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it. I hear you but I think we're outnumbered about 10-1 on this. Aside from the fact that Manny is a major league *******, this move is not going to push the club to a division title.

1989
08-29-2010, 10:38 PM
We finally get a DH. About 5 ****ing months too late

Soxfest
08-29-2010, 10:38 PM
Man-Ram finally a DH that hits over .200!:wink:

LoveYourSuit
08-29-2010, 10:39 PM
But the bullpen didn't lose a single game on this homestand. The offense lost two, the starting pitching lost a third.

The Sox bullpen was good for 110 games, then had a nightmarish two weeks.

Over the long haul, the lack of a competent DH has been the biggest weakness on the roster. It just got addressed. We'll see if it's enough to get the Sox out of the hole this last month.


Hit the nail on the head there JB!

The DH/hole in the offense has been the single biggest reason why we are not in 1st place right now.

Every other aspect of the game has contributed big time. The SP has been solid, the bullpen has been very good too when you look at things for a full season.

GoGoCrede
08-29-2010, 10:40 PM
I really disliked Manny's past antics, and never thought I'd ever see him on this team. That said, I am really excited to have a big bat on this team. I am willing to give him a chance. As long as they don't start selling those ridiculous Manny wigs at the Cell.

Viva Medias B's
08-29-2010, 10:40 PM
It's not like he's on anything NOW. Manny the Red Sox was on steroids. Manny the Dodger wasn't.

Didn't Manny the Dodger get a 50-gamer?

DirtySox
08-29-2010, 10:41 PM
But the bullpen didn't lose a single game on this homestand. The offense lost two, the starting pitching lost a third.

The Sox bullpen was good for 110 games, then had a nightmarish two weeks.

Over the long haul, the lack of a competent DH has been the biggest weakness on the roster. It just got addressed. We'll see if it's enough to get the Sox out of the hole this last month.

+1, All of this. I'm tired of reading that the bullpen cost this team the division when it's been very good the majority of the year.

I like this move just fine, but I also think it is a case of too little too late.

WhiteSox1989
08-29-2010, 10:41 PM
I really disliked Manny's past antics, and never thought I'd ever see him on this team. That said, I am really excited to have a big bat on this team. I am willing to give him a chance. As long as they don't start selling those ridiculous Manny wigs at the Cell.
I am really hoping they do sell them, because I want one.

SI1020
08-29-2010, 10:42 PM
It's not like he's on anything NOW. Manny the Red Sox was on steroids. Manny the Dodger wasn't. Really?


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:42 PM
This is very typical of the White Sox, the pitching is not great, the defense is questionable at best, so the answer must be to go get a hitter, that will fix it.

:scratch: Outside of Quentin in right, I'm hard pressed to think of any defensive weaknesses this team has had. Beckham has had his growing pains at second, but has been very solid, Alexei might be the best shortstop in baseball, Rios has been fantastic in center, Omar is still one of the best defenders in the game, Paulie is great at first and one of the best at digging out balls in the dirt, Pierre has been great in left. So, where exactly are the weaknesses on this team defensively?

ktssox
08-29-2010, 10:43 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams' best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.

I agree with you, but no one seems to care. They'll just come back at you with a list of names of people on the Sox who were susupected/caught. I think there's a difference between finding out someone on your team used steroids and actively pusuing known cheaters, but we seem to be in the minority. Aside from all that, though, he is just a terrible teammate and doesn't really respect the game, but again, no one cares.

Maybe we should have our own whining thread, so we don't ruin all their fun :smile:

soxinem1
08-29-2010, 10:44 PM
Amazing day today.

You have one of the best power hitters of all time waiving his no-trade clause to come here.

He says he looks forward to playing for the White Sox.

He says he has no problems with and prefers to be a DH (unlike most members of Ozzie's DH Commitee).

This might be one of the few times that an elite player already tells people he wants to play for the White Sox before the transaction landing him is official.

And yet some still want Kotsay to be in the lineup and don't think the gamble is worth it.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2010, 10:44 PM
+1, All of this. I'm tired of reading that the bullpen cost this team the division when it's been very good the majority of the year.

I like this move just fine, but I also think it is a case of too little too late.

Don't get me wrong, most of the year the pen has been nothing short of outstanding, but Bobby alone has cost us two games in the standings, the bullpen cost us two games against the Twins and hasn't come through at all lately.

Noneck
08-29-2010, 10:46 PM
Over the long haul, the lack of a competent DH has been the biggest weakness on the roster. It just got addressed. We'll see if it's enough to get the Sox out of the hole this last month.


This is all true and if this was addressed prior to both setup guys going on the DL and another out for the year, I would be in your corner. But with the Sox being in the piss poor relief situation they are now and probably for the last month of the season, repairing that is more critical than getting the DH they should have gotten many moons ago.

shingo10
08-29-2010, 10:48 PM
Does this mean we have to get rid of Kotsay? Or at least somebody? Just wondering what it'll do to the roster.

soxinem1
08-29-2010, 10:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, most of the year the pen has been nothing short of outstanding, but Bobby alone has cost us two games in the standings, the bullpen cost us two games against the Twins and hasn't come through at all lately.

True, our pen blew some games, especially early on and this month.

But how many games did Rauch cost MIN when they were in that rough stretch?

These things do have a way of evening out. Face it, a pair of uncommon winning streaks and an ineffective closer helps us make up a ton of ground on MIN.

Using your argument, Twins fans can say they let us back in the race because their closer choked in June/July.

JB98
08-29-2010, 10:54 PM
Don't get me wrong, most of the year the pen has been nothing short of outstanding, but Bobby alone has cost us two games in the standings, the bullpen cost us two games against the Twins and hasn't come through at all lately.

Remember when Chipper Jones praised the Sox as the toughest team Atlanta had played? He said it was because the Sox bullpen was so strong that they could make it a six-inning game:

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/braves-swept-after-saito-556987.html

Don't get me wrong - from Aug. 6 through Aug. 21, the Sox bullpen was horse****. But that's only two weeks out of a 162-game season and it shouldn't detract from the overall body of work. The bullpen was a big reason why the Sox got back in the race in the first place.

The Braves played Minnesota right before they faced the Sox, and I don't think the Twins received that kind of praise from an opponent.

JB98
08-29-2010, 10:58 PM
This is all true and if this was addressed prior to both setup guys going on the DL and another out for the year, I would be in your corner. But with the Sox being in the piss poor relief situation they are now and probably for the last month of the season, repairing that is more critical than getting the DH they should have gotten many moons ago.

Thornton's eligible to come off the DL before the Sox hit Boston. Jenks is throwing well now (except on his throws to first base, apparently). Just gotta hang on until Matt gets back. He's better than anybody on the waiver wire, including the great Fuentes that so many wanted.

Healthy Thornton + Effective Jenks = Crisis Averted.

guillensdisciple
08-29-2010, 10:58 PM
Manny leads this team to the playoffs, and takes us for a ride while we are there and I will be screaming praises. He sure as hell has the capacity to do that.

We're in a hole, but I am pretty sure the Dodgers were in need of a savior when he came over there then.

TheOldRoman
08-29-2010, 11:04 PM
:scratch: Outside of Quentin in right, I'm hard pressed to think of any defensive weaknesses this team has had. Beckham has had his growing pains at second, but has been very solid, Alexei might be the best shortstop in baseball, Rios has been fantastic in center, Omar is still one of the best defenders in the game, Paulie is great at first and one of the best at digging out balls in the dirt, Pierre has been great in left. So, where exactly are the weaknesses on this team defensively?That's his shtick. Let it go.

Sox loose a reliefer with a zero era for the year yesterday, have both setup guys on the DL, let 2 relief pitchers slip by them to the twins and they get a so called thumper for a month for 4M. It makes no sense to me either.I agree. Kenny should have used the zero prospects he gave up for Ramirez to acquire a reliever.

UofCSoxFan
08-29-2010, 11:06 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams' best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.

Does the name Jose Canseco mean anything to you? You're kidding yourself if you think the White Sox, or any team, has been above steroids.

mcsoxfan
08-29-2010, 11:07 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams' best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.

All of this can be resolved if ownership allowed Kenny to compete in free agency. It is an integral part of championship building unless you suck for 10 years like Tampa Bay to get first crack at the best talent available in the draft year after year.

Noneck
08-29-2010, 11:10 PM
That's his shtick. Let it go.

I agree. Kenny should have used the zero prospects he gave up for Ramirez to acquire a reliever.

4M is a lot of money, more than the worth of a lot of so called prospects.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-29-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm glad the haters didn't convince KW not to get Manny. I really hope a 1 year extension is involved though, because the season is almost as good as over. The pitching and hitting needs to get in sync.

palehozenychicty
08-29-2010, 11:23 PM
Amazing day today.

You have one of the best power hitters of all time waiving his no-trade clause to come here.

He says he looks forward to playing for the White Sox.

He says he has no problems with and prefers to be a DH (unlike most members of Ozzie's DH Commitee).

This might be one of the few times that an elite player already tells people he wants to play for the White Sox before the transaction landing him is official.

And yet some still want Kotsay to be in the lineup and don't think the gamble is worth it.

Then we wonder why this team has a long history of underachievement. For too long, management, fans, and players make excuses for not beating the Twins. This franchise should not be losing to these guys nearly every year. KW has made his share of deft moves and clumsy ones, but I love this one. We know his weaknesses, but if he takes this team to the postseason, which the Sox have only made a handful of times, nobody will complain. He's money in October as well. If healthy, a win-win scenario.

hi im skot
08-29-2010, 11:23 PM
I'm glad the haters didn't convince KW not to get Manny. I really hope a 1 year extension is involved though, because the season is almost as good as over. The pitching and hitting needs to get in sync.

I'm sure Kenny really values the opinions of a bunch of goofs on a message board.

guillensdisciple
08-29-2010, 11:24 PM
Anyone that supports Manny on the Sox going to do what I am going to do and buy a shirt/ jersey of him on the Sox?

Viva Medias B's
08-29-2010, 11:25 PM
I'm sure Kenny really values the opinions of a bunch of goofs on a message board.

That's right. If KW listened to us, we would be going on our 11th world title in a row!

TheOldRoman
08-29-2010, 11:26 PM
4M is a lot of money, more than the worth of a lot of so called prospects.Pitching is a matter of availability. The Sox just spent $4 mil for one month of a bat. If any pitching is available which they think will help, they will get it regardless of the money.

Noneck
08-29-2010, 11:32 PM
If any pitching is available which they think will help, they will get it regardless of the money.

My fingers are crossed.

PaleHoser
08-29-2010, 11:39 PM
Things I hope for:

1. Ramirez leaves his pajamas and dreadlocks in Mannywood and comes here a very hungry hitter with bad intentions toward American League pitching.

2. The fact that the Sox finally have a hitter in the DH slot will lead to the club having a better-than .500 record against the American League by the end of the week. (Read today that the Sox are 56-58 against the American League :o:).

3. Those who say that Sox ownership is cheap and won't pay for a winer will just stop with that tired, old argument. That may have been true for many years, but the club has spent the money since winning the World Series. Now they've just invested about $1M a week for a hitter for the remainder of the season. This isn't "cheap".

AlexRios51
08-29-2010, 11:44 PM
:bandance: Just bought my tickets for his likely debut at the cell.

soltrain21
08-29-2010, 11:46 PM
What happened to the pride we as Sox fans took in the fact that our team remained clean throughout the 'roid era? Acquiring Manny Ramirez on the same day that Frank Thomas' number is retired is really dark humor.

I really thought that was one of Kenny Williams' best points, that he paid attention to character in filling out the roster. This is selling honor very cheaply, and nothing good will come of it.

I don't buy this for one second. We had plenty of juicers throughout the years. Every team did.

UofCSoxFan
08-29-2010, 11:53 PM
I don't buy this for one second. We had plenty of juicers throughout the years. Every team did.

I've been saying this the past two weeks. Do people not remember Jose Canseco played here? We also had at least 1 minor leaguer suspended.

Then you add in all the "very likely suspects" including a guy with temper problems and an arthritic hip before his 35th birthday and a cathcher that had 2 good years and then fell off the map...

When 30% of the league is rumored to have been juicing it is completely naive to think the Sox were completely clean (especially when, again, Jose Freaking Canseco played here). Plus, if you rule out anyone that ever juiced, you are limiting your pool pretty considerably.

Brian26
08-29-2010, 11:55 PM
Things I hope for:

1. Ramirez leaves his pajamas and dreadlocks in Mannywood and comes here a very hungry hitter with bad intentions toward American League pitching.

I like this.

GlassSox
08-29-2010, 11:55 PM
Manny.......... :welcome: and hope to see good results.

Brian26
08-29-2010, 11:56 PM
Then you add in all the "very likely suspects" including a guy with temper problems and an arthritic hip before his 35th birthday and a cathcher that had 2 good years and then fell off the map...


Belle and ???

AlexRios51
08-29-2010, 11:56 PM
I like this.
Is anyone else excited that he's gonna be here in time for the CLE and BOS series. I can only imagine what he's gonna do in Fenway:bliss::wooty:

spawn
08-29-2010, 11:56 PM
Manny.......... :welcome: and hope to see good results.
Yes Manny...I hope you are a valued poster on the site. Just remember to read the posting rules...

Brewski
08-29-2010, 11:56 PM
Things I hope for:

1. Ramirez leaves his pajamas and dreadlocks in Mannywood and comes here a very hungry hitter with bad intentions toward American League pitching.

2. The fact that the Sox finally have a hitter in the DH slot will lead to the club having a better-than .500 record against the American League by the end of the week. (Read today that the Sox are 56-58 against the American League :o:).

3. Those who say that Sox ownership is cheap and won't pay for a winer will just stop with that tired, old argument. That may have been true for many years, but the club has spent the money since winning the World Series. Now they've just invested about $1M a week for a hitter for the remainder of the season. This isn't "cheap".

Tired old arguments are precisely the kind that don't go away. So that one will remain current for eternity. Just coming off the DL in an injury-plagued season, is he ready to produce? Will he require fixing by Coach Walker? If this is Griffey II, consider me not impressed, hoping otherwise, despite all the goodwill that still pervades the board about Ken G.

An extra run or two a game? Might help, if he gives it to us. Gonna be interesting for a week or so, but if we're down 6 games by then, interest is going away at warp speed. We'll know soon.

GlassSox
08-29-2010, 11:59 PM
Yes Manny...I hope you are a valued poster on the site. Just remember to read the posting rules...

Oh good he can read, that's another question out of the way.

twentywontowin
08-30-2010, 12:01 AM
Oh good he can read, that's another question out of the way.

I don't know, the guy couldn't figure out direct deposit. I believe he was the guy whose car got broken into with a ton of uncashed paychecks from the Red Sox.

GoSox2K3
08-30-2010, 12:02 AM
But the bullpen didn't lose a single game on this homestand. The offense lost two, the starting pitching lost a third.

The Sox bullpen was good for 110 games, then had a nightmarish two weeks.

Over the long haul, the lack of a competent DH has been the biggest weakness on the roster. It just got addressed. We'll see if it's enough to get the Sox out of the hole this last month.

Nooooo!!!!!!! Our woes are all on the bullpen. That is the team's only problem this season. If we repeat that enough on WSI, then it must be true!

Why do you hate Kotsay so much? HATER!!!

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 12:03 AM
I hope he brings his grill (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070320&content_id=1852512&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos).

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 12:04 AM
Belle and ???

With nothing to base it on other than looking at his frame, injury history, and fast drop off in production, I'd be shocked if Charles Johnson was abrove reproach. He went from hitting 31 HR in 2000 to 6 in 2002. Raises some questions in my mind, at least enough to put him in the "it wouldn't shock me" category.

GlassSox
08-30-2010, 12:04 AM
I don't know, the guy couldn't figure out direct deposit. I believe he was the guy whose car got broken into with a ton of uncashed paychecks from the Red Sox.

...and then there is reading comprehension

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 12:06 AM
Tired old arguments are precisely the kind that don't go away. So that one will remain current for eternity. Just coming off the DL in an injury-plagued season, is he ready to produce? Will he require fixing by Coach Walker? If this is Griffey II, consider me not impressed, hoping otherwise, despite all the goodwill that still pervades the board about Ken G.

An extra run or two a game? Might help, if he gives it to us. Gonna be interesting for a week or so, but if we're down 6 games by then, interest is going away at warp speed. We'll know soon.

Have you watched Manny play at all this year? How about last year? This isn't even in the same ballpark as Griffey II. Manny has still been a stud when on the field this year. The Dodgers would have kept him if they thought they still had a chance this year.

WhiteSox5187
08-30-2010, 12:06 AM
With nothing to base it on other than looking at his frame, injury history, and fast drop off in production, I'd be shocked if Charles Johnson was abrove reproach. He went from hitting 31 HR in 2000 to 6 in 2002. Raises some questions in my mind, at least enough to put him in the "it wouldn't shock me" category.

Honestly at this point NO ONE would shock me. Craig Counsel, maybe.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 12:08 AM
Nooooo!!!!!!! Our woes are all on the bullpen. That is the team's only problem this season. If we repeat that enough on WSI, then it must be true!

Why do you hate Kotsay so much? HATER!!!

According to WSI, you are only able to address your number 1 problem. You can't improve your team elsewhere.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 12:10 AM
Honestly at this point NO ONE would shock me. Craig Counsel, maybe.

True. I'm the same way, although some wouldn't shock me more than others. Bottem line, it's laughable to me that people can claim they "know" a guy is clean, when statistically there is a pretty good chance that if a guy played in the late 90s or early '00s he was on something.

soxlady8
08-30-2010, 12:10 AM
Interesting , Interesting , Interesting !!
I don't think him being here can hurt this team , not sure how much he will help this team considering the bullpen is not too great right now.

Will he be in Cleveland tomorrow playing ?
Or does he have to wait until Tuesday or Wednesday?

AlexRios51
08-30-2010, 12:11 AM
Have you watched Manny play at all this year? How about last year? This isn't even in the same ballpark as Griffey II. Manny has still been a stud when on the field this year. The Dodgers would have kept him if they thought they still had a chance this year.
Bingo!!!

GoGoCrede
08-30-2010, 12:11 AM
Interesting , Interesting , Interesting !!
I don't think him being here can hurt this team , not sure how much he will help this team considering the bullpen is not too great right now.

Will he be in Cleveland tomorrow playing ?
Or does he have to wait until Tuesday or Wednesday?

I'm waaay out of the loop when it comes to the Manny updates, but I'm guessing we'd have to wait till Tuesday, so it can be official, no?

WhiteSox5187
08-30-2010, 12:13 AM
True. I'm the same way, although some wouldn't shock me more than others. Bottem line, it's laughable to me that people can claim they "know" a guy is clean, when statistically there is a pretty good chance that if a guy played in the late 90s or early '00s he was on something.

That's really what sucks about the steroid era because there were some great players who were clean and still there will always be that lingering question of "yea, but MAYBE..." A guy like Thome comes to mind.

WhiteSox5187
08-30-2010, 12:14 AM
I'm waaay out of the loop when it comes to the Manny updates, but I'm guessing we'd have to wait till Tuesday, so it can be official, no?

No, I think it's official and I think he will be there in Cleveland. I suspect he will get booed. Totally unrelated, but does Thome still get booed in Cleveland?

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 12:15 AM
4cY3M8aloY8

This is going to be awesome.

manders_01
08-30-2010, 12:18 AM
No, I think it's official and I think he will be there in Cleveland. I suspect he will get booed. Totally unrelated, but does Thome still get booed in Cleveland?

Ummmm yeah, I'm pretty sure he's going to get booed in Cleveland...and every other city he plays in. I mean hell, he gets booed like crazy in Denver and he's never played for them. He's just not a liked guy.

WhiteSox5187
08-30-2010, 12:20 AM
4cY3M8aloY8

This is going to be awesome.

I remember watching that same SportsCenter thing in English. Manny cutting off Damon's throw always makes me laugh.

guillensdisciple
08-30-2010, 12:20 AM
4cY3M8aloY8

This is going to be awesome.


There can not be enough thumbs up for this.

GoGoCrede
08-30-2010, 12:24 AM
No, I think it's official and I think he will be there in Cleveland. I suspect he will get booed. Totally unrelated, but does Thome still get booed in Cleveland?

Yes, he does. I feel embarrassed for Cleveland fans.

WhiteSox5187
08-30-2010, 12:27 AM
Yes, he does. I feel embarrassed for Cleveland fans.

They have had a rough time of it. They haven't won anything in fifty plus years and their best stars always leave. My God, it's the only city in the world where a river has caught fire!

kittle42
08-30-2010, 12:29 AM
I am shocked I am a fan of this move. It really was the ridiculous opponents of it here that made me love it so much, actually.

spawn
08-30-2010, 12:34 AM
I am shocked I am a fan of this move. It really was the ridiculous opponents of it here that made me love it so much, actually.
Glad we could help. :rolleyes:

Zisk77
08-30-2010, 12:36 AM
I've been saying this the past two weeks. Do people not remember Jose Canseco played here? We also had at least 1 minor leaguer suspended.

Then you add in all the "very likely suspects" including a guy with temper problems and an arthritic hip before his 35th birthday and a cathcher that had 2 good years and then fell off the map...

When 30% of the league is rumored to have been juicing it is completely naive to think the Sox were completely clean (especially when, again, Jose Freaking Canseco played here). Plus, if you rule out anyone that ever juiced, you are limiting your pool pretty considerably.


Oh please, We rented Canseco for the balance of the year just like we are with Manny now and we didn't offer Jose a contract for the following year.

No team was eniterly clean but the sox were probably the closest to it.

There definitely wasn't a clubhouse culture of it going on like in the cubs as professed by Matt Karchner in the mitchell report.

And two wrongs don't make a right anyway. Its not ok to have Manny now because we had jose or joey then.

It is what it is, we are in "just win baby" mode never mind the consequences, but lets not rationalize it.

Besides, having Andruw Jones now is a better argument for your cause then having Jose then.

Crooked Number
08-30-2010, 12:36 AM
Could have used him today with the bases loaded in the 6th. Instead i had to watch todays dh Mark Teahen weakly ground out and hear it from the insufferable yankee fans in section 510.

CLR01
08-30-2010, 12:42 AM
Could have used him today with the bases loaded in the 6th. Instead i had to watch todays dh Mark Teahen weakly ground out and hear it from the insufferable yankee fans in section 510.


We could have instead had Manny get ejected after the first pitch and then watched Mark Teahaen hit a weak ground out. Damn...

KRS1
08-30-2010, 12:47 AM
This is very typical of the White Sox, the pitching is not great, the defense is questionable at best, so the answer must be to go get a hitter, that will fix it.

What would you have them do through waivers? Fuentes would have been ideal,I'll agree with that, but it's not exactly picking time at the orchards when it comes to talent that helps a ball club right now. We're losing a lot of winnable games right now because our lineup runs hot and freezing, so you have to try something. I'll take the future HOF bat as that "something," and hope for the best.

ChiTownTrojan
08-30-2010, 01:13 AM
They have had a rough time of it. They haven't won anything in fifty plus years and their best stars always leave. My God, it's the only city in the world where a river has caught fire!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY

DirtySox
08-30-2010, 01:14 AM
Looking forward to the whole Manny package. Dreads, baggy uniform, and hitting. I also look forward to future complaints about dreads, baggy uniforms, and steroids. Entertainment from all directions!

kittle42
08-30-2010, 01:16 AM
Glad we could help. :rolleyes:

Very nice of you. Seriously, this makes the team a bit better. Whiners.

kittle42
08-30-2010, 01:17 AM
Looking forward to the whole Manny package. Dreads, baggy uniform, and hitting. I also look forward to future complaints about dreads, baggy uniforms, and steroids. Entertainment from all directions!

Exactly.

I'm pretty sure that if a second Chicago fire breaks out in the next five weeks, someone here will blame the acquisition of Ramirez.

pistolesatdawn
08-30-2010, 02:01 AM
Ummmm yeah, I'm pretty sure he's going to get booed in Cleveland...and every other city he plays in. I mean hell, he gets booed like crazy in Denver and he's never played for them. He's just not a liked guy.

Completely off topic, but that just points to some Coloradoans' sports IQ given that if you were at the game in Denver today you could see the park emptying throughout the game (a game that was pretty good to watch), which I am convinced was just so everyone could make it in time to see their precious Donkeys in a meaningless pre-season match-up. Sorry couldn't resist to vent about one of the few downsides of living in Colorado for me - stupid Broncos fans.

I like the move and don't think it can hurt anything at this point except for Reinsdorf's pocket book. It at least shows some sort of commitment towards winning which we all haven't perceived to be the case in the past.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-30-2010, 02:14 AM
I really like the fact that Manny isn't getting the first slide on the Sox website. I want to see Frank there for at least another day. I REALLY wish I could have gone to the game... but there wasn't tickets on sale before the game and I didn't want to go through stub-hub.

DaveFeelsRight
08-30-2010, 02:38 AM
grantee south paw will be rocking dreads. count it!

Nellie_Fox
08-30-2010, 02:39 AM
grantee south paw will be rocking dreads. count it!
What?

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 02:39 AM
grantee south paw will be rocking dreads. count it!

What?

Awesome.

mbwhitesox
08-30-2010, 02:40 AM
I love this move. It's basically JR saying to the fans, I want to win and I'm willing to put up money to do so. It's great to have an owner like that. Even if this move is a total bust, you can't fault the Sox for trying. It's a lot better than doing nothing. Who knows, maybe this will give them the spark they need to catch the Twins.

Stephen Jaworski
08-30-2010, 07:51 AM
Great move, Mr. Reinsdorf. Why not coax George Foster out of retirement? He is still alive, right?

:moron

LoveYourSuit
08-30-2010, 07:57 AM
I love this move. It's basically JR saying to the fans, I want to win and I'm willing to put up money to do so. It's great to have an owner like that. Even if this move is a total bust, you can't fault the Sox for trying. It's a lot better than doing nothing. Who knows, maybe this will give them the spark they need to catch the Twins.


Exactly my stand.

Don't care for Manny, I won't be running to the sporting store for a jersey, but at this point any move is a plus.

This team has been dead for the last 3 plus weeks.

At 4.5 out, I think we are almost out of it.

Manny does make things a bit more interesting for me.

We wil see.

cws05champ
08-30-2010, 08:01 AM
Belle and ???

OEO....Magglio.

Dan H
08-30-2010, 08:06 AM
I like the thought behind this move. The team is spending money,not giving up and still trying to win something meaningful. I just don't like or even want Manny. When Paul Konerko comes up, I gladly cheer him because all he has done for this team. I can't cheer for this guy in the same way. Manny is a carpet bagging free agent who brings a lot of baggage. I only hope he is not more trouble than he is worth.

The team has to go on a real hot streak if it is going to have any chance. We will see if this mope can make a difference.

Stephen Jaworski
08-30-2010, 08:16 AM
He hasn't smacked a HR in 2 1/2 months. I predict he'll go homerless the rest of 2010. Taking ABs away from Jones & Quentin is not a smart idea. Nor is spending over 4 million bucks on Bartolo Colon's twin brother (twin as in rump size).

kevingrt
08-30-2010, 08:18 AM
He hasn't smacked a HR in 2 1/2 months. I predict he'll go homerless the rest of 2010. Taking ABs away from Jones & Quentin is not a smart idea. Nor is spending over 4 million bucks on Bartolo Colon's twin brother (twin as in rump size).

Why does Andruw still need to see AB's? He's already seen his ceiling five years ago and it's not like he's ripping the cover off the ball right now. If you have a problem with Manny taking Druw's AB's you probably need to get your head examined for baseball misconceptions.

Manny is pretty big though not quite Bartolo big though.

SI1020
08-30-2010, 08:21 AM
Very nice of you. Seriously, this makes the team a bit better. Whiners. Another stupid overused word used to denigrate those we disagree with as a substitute for real debate. No one owes you any explanation or needs your permission.

cws05champ
08-30-2010, 08:23 AM
He hasn't smacked a HR in 2 1/2 months. I predict he'll go homerless the rest of 2010. Taking ABs away from Jones & Quentin is not a smart idea. Nor is spending over 4 million bucks on Bartolo Colon's twin brother (twin as in rump size).

Manny's OPS: .915
Jones OPS: .795

Manny is still a .300+ hitter and you don't think moving to the Cell will help his power #'s. It's not just his performance either...there's a respect factor from pitchers knowing he can put it out on any pitch. He may get pitched around which will put more people on base and/or more hittable pitches for the guys hitting in front of him.

patbooyah
08-30-2010, 08:25 AM
He hasn't smacked a HR in 2 1/2 months. I predict he'll go homerless the rest of 2010. Taking ABs away from Jones & Quentin is not a smart idea. Nor is spending over 4 million bucks on Bartolo Colon's twin brother (twin as in rump size).

In fairness, that 2.5 months represents about 40 ABs since he had two stints on the DL during that time.

ChiSoxGal85
08-30-2010, 08:39 AM
In fairness, that 2.5 months represents about 40 ABs since he had two stints on the DL during that time.
...and that worries me a bit. I'm not sure what his reasons for being on the DL were, but I sure hope he can stay off it the rest of the year.

palehozenychicty
08-30-2010, 08:58 AM
Manny's OPS: .915
Jones OPS: .795

Manny is still a .300+ hitter and you don't think moving to the Cell will help his power #'s. It's not just his performance either...there's a respect factor from pitchers knowing he can put it out on any pitch. He may get pitched around which will put more people on base and/or more hittable pitches for the guys hitting in front of him.

This. Is the reason why you acquire him.

Hitmen77
08-30-2010, 09:53 AM
According to WSI, you are only able to address your number 1 problem. You can't improve your team elsewhere.

+1

Apparently those 16 games we lost where we held the opponents to 3 runs or less don't count against us.

Over By There
08-30-2010, 09:53 AM
I've never been a fan of Manny's, but I'm sort of looking forward to the next month to see what happens. The Sox have written paychecks to a number of scuzzy guys over the years, and I've cheered for them. Albert Belle, Jose Canseco, etc.

There are degenerates that I would never cheer for, like Elijah Dukes. I could see some of the over-the-top contempt being displayed here for a player like that. But as far as I know, people dislike Manny because he is viewed as 1) a me-first airhead and 2) a former PED user. Perhaps CLR or spawn could elaborate if I'm missing something.

IMO, the PED usage is something you have to just live with if you're going to be a MLB fan in general. As others have said, the Sox have had players that have used PEDs. It's not like the Sox organization is on some higher moral ground than other teams (well, except for maybe the A's :smile:).

The selfishness and/or boneheadedness is a bigger issue IMO. But he hasn't wronged the Sox yet, so I don't understand why some are acting like the Sox organization is about to implode. Perhaps he acts out, and that's part of the risk. But we have him for one month, so the risk is mitigated.

Furthermore, am I the only one who doesn't take Sox fandom so seriously as to recognize that the Sox have been something of a dramatic, almost whimsical franchise in the past? I know some will disagree, but I love that aspect of Sox history - it's a franchise that has taken risks and occasionally stubbed it's toe. I love the fact that the Sox are not always a straight-laced franchise, and aren't afraid to be aggressive, whether it's with player acquisitions or promoting the club. I think the Manny acquisition is very much in character for the Sox, to be honest. I'm not going to run out and buy a 99 jersey, but I hope he adds some excitement to the next month and helps the Sox make a run at the playoffs. In a couple years, one way or another, I have a feeling we'll all look back at this month with a chuckle instead of rolling eyes.

Tragg
08-30-2010, 09:54 AM
You have to love the going all-in on this move.
Going all in when you hold a pair of 10s and there is no chance of bluffing the opponent out?

No, you don't have to like it, when the chances with or without Manny, are far less than even.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 10:00 AM
I've never been a fan of Manny's, but I'm sort of looking forward to the next month to see what happens. The Sox have written paychecks to a number of scuzzy guys over the years, and I've cheered for them. Albert Belle, Jose Canseco, etc.

There are degenerates that I would never cheer for, like Elijah Dukes. I could see some of the over-the-top contempt being displayed here for a player like that. But as far as I know, people dislike Manny because he is viewed as 1) a me-first airhead and 2) a former PED user. Perhaps CLR or spawn could elaborate if I'm missing something.

IMO, the PED usage is something you have to just live with if you're going to be a MLB fan in general. As others have said, the Sox have had players that have used PEDs. It's not like the Sox organization is on some higher moral ground than other teams (well, except for maybe the A's :smile:).

The selfishness and/or boneheadedness is a bigger issue IMO. But he hasn't wronged the Sox yet, so I don't understand why some are acting like the Sox organization is about to implode. Perhaps he acts out, and that's part of the risk. But we have him for one month, so the risk is mitigated.

Furthermore, am I the only one who doesn't take Sox fandom so seriously as to recognize that the Sox have been something of a dramatic, almost whimsical franchise in the past? I know some will disagree, but I love that aspect of Sox history - it's a franchise that has taken risks and occasionally stubbed it's toe. I love the fact that the Sox are not always a straight-laced franchise, and aren't afraid to be aggressive, whether it's with player acquisitions or promoting the club. I think the Manny acquisition is very much in character for the Sox, to be honest. I'm not going to run out and buy a 99 jersey, but I hope he adds some excitement to the next month and helps the Sox make a run at the playoffs. In a couple years, one way or another, I have a feeling we'll all look back at this month with a chuckle instead of rolling eyes.

:thumbsup:

Great post.

SOXPHILE
08-30-2010, 10:00 AM
Kenny Williams continues his quest to aquire every single player from the mid to late 90's Cleveland Indians teams.

-Kenny Lofton. Check

-Sandy Alomar. Check

-Robbie Alomar. Check

-Albert Belle. Check.

-Jim Thome. Check

-Omar Vizquel. Check.

-The raging asshat that was suspended 50 games last year for steroids. Check.

Is Russell Branyan available ? Paul Sorento retired in 1999, and Carlos Baerga has not been in MLB since 2004, so they are out.

aryzner
08-30-2010, 10:01 AM
Whether you like this deal or not, if he hits like he did when he first went to the Dodgers for those 50 or 60 games in the 2008 season, won't we all be more than happy?

hawkjt
08-30-2010, 10:07 AM
This is a 3.7 million roll of the dice by Kenny and Jerry...isn't that what a fan base wants at this point in the season?
Baseball has always had its share of scoundrels. The Yankees seem just fine accepting those trophies with guys like admitted PED users A-Rod and Petitte. Are the Sox that much classier than the Yanks? No, it is about winning,legally, and if A-Rod is clean, they let him win for them. Same for Manny.

Now,that said, it is a longshot that Manny gets the Sox over the top,but why not go for it?...this is the only AL Central division the Sox can win this year.

Stephen Jaworski
08-30-2010, 10:13 AM
Whether you like this deal or not, if he hits like he did when he first went to the Dodgers for those 50 or 60 games in the 2008 season, won't we all be more than happy?

Glenn Beck will transfer to MSNBC before Manny replicates his 2008 Dodger "magic". Let's face reality, folks: The bum is washed up.

http://cdn2.ioffer.com/img/1153292400/_i/12866557/1.jpg

Stephen Jaworski
08-30-2010, 10:17 AM
Kenny Williams continues his quest to aquire every single player from the mid to late 90's Cleveland Indians teams.

-Kenny Lofton. Check

-Sandy Alomar. Check

-Robbie Alomar. Check

-Albert Belle. Check.

-Jim Thome. Check

-Omar Vizquel. Check.

-The raging asshat that was suspended 50 games last year for steroids. Check.

Is Russell Branyan available ? Paul Sorento retired in 1999, and Carlos Baerga has not been in MLB since 2004, so they are out.

Travis Fryman could help the Sox as a right-handed hitting version of future HOFer Mark Kotsay. Travfry is only 41 too.

Moses_Scurry
08-30-2010, 10:21 AM
I just hope its not too late. A 4.5 game deficit over 32 games is tough to make up even if you are the '27 Yankees.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 10:22 AM
Travis Fryman could help the Sox as a right-handed hitting version of future HOFer Mark Kotsay. Travfry is only 41 too.

"Travfry"?

Ouch.

rdwj
08-30-2010, 10:23 AM
I, for one, am SUPER excited about the addition of Manny. This gives us a chance this year and that's all I want. Ya, the pen has has a couple of bad weeks, but the DH spot has been a weakness ALL year.

Welcome Manny! Let's win this thing!!

Chez
08-30-2010, 10:24 AM
Kenny Williams continues his quest to aquire every single player from the mid to late 90's Cleveland Indians teams.

-Kenny Lofton. Check

-Sandy Alomar. Check

-Robbie Alomar. Check

-Albert Belle. Check.

-Jim Thome. Check

-Omar Vizquel. Check.

-The raging asshat that was suspended 50 games last year for steroids. Check.

Is Russell Branyan available ? Paul Sorento retired in 1999, and Carlos Baerga has not been in MLB since 2004, so they are out.

You've forgotten Bartolo Colon (twice), Herbert Perry, David Riske and Alan Embree!

doublem23
08-30-2010, 10:24 AM
"Travfry"?

Ouch.

A for effort, though.

I guess.

doublem23
08-30-2010, 10:31 AM
Glenn Beck will transfer to MSNBC before Manny replicates his 2008 Dodger "magic". Let's face reality, folks: The bum is washed up.

2010 Batting Average: .311
2010 On Base Percentage: .405
2010 Slugging Perccentage: .510

I'm not going to preach to people that they should just love Manny because he's going to be in our pinstripes. I'm not going to tell them they should forget how much they may have disliked him over the past years for his me-first attitude or PED suspension. But let's at least be fair to the guy, hey can definitely help this team on the field right now.

TDog
08-30-2010, 10:41 AM
Reading the reaction is sort of funny. Thirteen years ago, fans were upset because Reinsdorf said "anyone who thinks we're gong to catch the Indians is crazy" and approved a trade that gutted the pitching staff, and brought in prospects when the team was 3.5 out at the end of July. Now the team is 4.5 games out at the end of August and there are fans complaining that the White Sox are out of it and are denigrating management for acquiring Ramirez.

Two years ago, acquiring Griffey didn't really help, although he had a couple of moments. Last year, the White Sox grabbed Rios off of waivers, taking on a huge salary. This year, the White Sox are taking on still more salary by picking up Ramirez, and people remain critical. The attitude of this franchise certainly has changed since 1997.

There is still the faction that believes all the problems would have been solved if the Sox had signed Thome after trading him away, fueled by what Thome has done against the White Sox, in one game in particular. Thome hasn't done all that much for the Twins. He has failed quite a bit. I don't know if the Sox would be any better in the standings with Thome or if the Twins would be any worse off.

Ramirez isn't the likable gentleman that Thome is, but he is a better hitter. People question whether Ramirez is motivated to play. Rios didn't seem motivated to play last year. Ramirez will probably be motivated to play in Boston next weekend when the White Sox go there for a three-game series. He will likely be motivated to play when the Red Sox come to Chicago at the end of the month, and I hope the games still matter. I have every reason to believe he wants to get back to the postseason, and the White Sox chances seem to be better this morning than they were before Sunday's Yankees game.

The White Sox didn't give up any talent. I don't see the problem.

doublem23
08-30-2010, 10:50 AM
There is still the faction that believes all the problems would have been solved if the Sox had signed Thome after trading him away, fueled by what Thome has done against the White Sox, in one game in particular. Thome hasn't done all that much for the Twins. He has failed quite a bit. I don't know if the Sox would be any better in the standings with Thome or if the Twins would be any worse off.


Oh ****ING please. Nobody has outwardly said that the Sox would be running away with things if we had Thome, it's just OBVIOUS Thome > Kotsay. There's just simply no other way to say it and anyone who would argue that point is just being a MORON DIP**** HOMER.

Thome is batting .266, is getting on base nearly 4 out of every 10 times he steps to the plate, and is slugging .585. He's having a great season, the only ones who can't admit it are the ones with their heads stuck in the sand.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 10:51 AM
2010 Batting Average: .311
2010 On Base Percentage: .405
2010 Slugging Perccentage: .510

I'm not going to preach to people that they should just love Manny because he's going to be in our pinstripes. I'm not going to tell them they should forget how much they may have disliked him over the past years for his me-first attitude or PED suspension. But let's at least be fair to the guy, hey can definitely help this team on the field right now.

Exactly. People are entitled to dislike or even root against the guy, but it's just wrong to say he can't play.

If people want to talk about washed up DH's we have two of them on this team right now in Kotsay and Jones.

dickallen15
08-30-2010, 10:55 AM
Reading the reaction is sort of funny. Thirteen years ago, fans were upset because Reinsdorf said "anyone who thinks we're gong to catch the Indians is crazy" and approved a trade that gutted the pitching staff, and brought in prospects when the team was 3.5 out at the end of July. Now the team is 4.5 games out at the end of August and there are fans complaining that the White Sox are out of it and are denigrating management for acquiring Ramirez.

Two years ago, acquiring Griffey didn't really help, although he had a couple of moments. Last year, the White Sox grabbed Rios off of waivers, taking on a huge salary. This year, the White Sox are taking on still more salary by picking up Ramirez, and people remain critical. The attitude of this franchise certainly has changed since 1997.

There is still the faction that believes all the problems would have been solved if the Sox had signed Thome after trading him away, fueled by what Thome has done against the White Sox, in one game in particular. Thome hasn't done all that much for the Twins. He has failed quite a bit. I don't know if the Sox would be any better in the standings with Thome or if the Twins would be any worse off.

Ramirez isn't the likable gentleman that Thome is, but he is a better hitter. People question whether Ramirez is motivated to play. Rios didn't seem motivated to play last year. Ramirez will probably be motivated to play in Boston next weekend when the White Sox go there for a three-game series. He will likely be motivated to play when the Red Sox come to Chicago at the end of the month, and I hope the games still matter. I have every reason to believe he wants to get back to the postseason, and the White Sox chances seem to be better this morning than they were before Sunday's Yankees game.

The White Sox didn't give up any talent. I don't see the problem.

So you are saying Thome's .976 OPS for $1.5 million over an entire season wouldn't have helped the Sox, but Manny and his .915 OPS (if you threw out his arrival in LA he hasn't had a .976 or better OPS since 2006 and I know its cherry picking, but I believe he was aided) and broken down body is going to propel the Sox to the playoffs?

SBSoxFan
08-30-2010, 10:55 AM
Reading the reaction is sort of funny. Thirteen years ago, fans were upset because Reinsdorf said "anyone who thinks we're gong to catch the Indians is crazy" and approved a trade that gutted the pitching staff, and brought in prospects when the team was 3.5 out at the end of July. Now the team is 4.5 games out at the end of August and there are fans complaining that the White Sox are out of it and are denigrating management for acquiring Ramirez.

Two years ago, acquiring Griffey didn't really help, although he had a couple of moments. Last year, the White Sox grabbed Rios off of waivers, taking on a huge salary. This year, the White Sox are taking on still more salary by picking up Ramirez, and people remain critical. The attitude of this franchise certainly has changed since 1997.

There is still the faction that believes all the problems would have been solved if the Sox had signed Thome after trading him away, fueled by what Thome has done against the White Sox, in one game in particular. Thome hasn't done all that much for the Twins. He has failed quite a bit. I don't know if the Sox would be any better in the standings with Thome or if the Twins would be any worse off.

Ramirez isn't the likable gentleman that Thome is, but he is a better hitter. People question whether Ramirez is motivated to play. Rios didn't seem motivated to play last year. Ramirez will probably be motivated to play in Boston next weekend when the White Sox go there for a three-game series. He will likely be motivated to play when the Red Sox come to Chicago at the end of the month, and I hope the games still matter. I have every reason to believe he wants to get back to the postseason, and the White Sox chances seem to be better this morning than they were before Sunday's Yankees game.

The White Sox didn't give up any talent. I don't see the problem.

TDog, last I looked, Thome's OPS+ was the highest it had been since his first year with the Sox. I don't know what rejuvenated him, but it's certainly debatable that he would have performed so well for the 2010 White Sox.

Other than that, I agree with your post. It's likely the Sox organization had a change in philosophy based on the events of 1997. It's also surreal that the Sox acquired Ramirez just in time for a road trip to Cleveland and Boston.

I don't know how I feel about this. I want the Sox to win, and Ramirez should certainly help the offense, which may lead to more wins. I cheered for Albert Belle when he was with the Sox, but I felt dirty after. Maybe I'll have to shower more over the next 1, hopefully 2, months. :smile:

Over By There
08-30-2010, 11:01 AM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/318621659/bobs_twittericon_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BNightengale) BNightengale (http://twitter.com/BNightengale)
#mlb (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23mlb) #whitesox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23whitesox) #dodgers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23dodgers) Manny is on way to Cleveland. Should be in Sox lineup tonite.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 11:04 AM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/318621659/bobs_twittericon_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BNightengale) BNightengale (http://twitter.com/BNightengale)
#mlb (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23mlb) #whitesox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23whitesox) #dodgers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23dodgers) Manny is on way to Cleveland. Should be in Sox lineup tonite.

I don't know who this Nightengale guy is, but :bandance:

Over By There
08-30-2010, 11:09 AM
I don't know who this Nightengale guy is, but :bandance:

I didn't know, either, but apparently he is a MLB writer for USA Today.

Quentin08
08-30-2010, 11:09 AM
Kudos to Nightengale! :bandance::bandance::bandance:

TDog
08-30-2010, 11:14 AM
Oh ****ING please. Nobody has outwardly said that the Sox would be running away with things if we had Thome, it's just OBVIOUS Thome > Kotsay. There's just simply no other way to say it and anyone who would argue that point is just being a MORON DIP**** HOMER.

Thome is batting .266, is getting on base nearly 4 out of every 10 times he steps to the plate, and is slugging .585. He's having a great season, the only ones who can't admit it are the ones with their heads stuck in the sand.

Jim Thome hit only .217 with one home run in May. Mark Kotsay hit .261 with four home runs in May. The White Sox were 13-14 in May. The next losing month the White Sox had was August. Both Thome and Kotsay are hitting .298 in August. Even for the season, Thome has only four more RBIs with runners in scoring position than Thome does and Thome has two more plate appearances in those situations. In many of Kotsay's bad offensive games the Sox won anyway. In many games the Sox lost, he didn't have a chance to change the outcome.

I don't think it's so clear cut that having Thome in the lineup over Kotsay would have led to more wins.

But I won't insult anyone who believes otherwise.

doublem23
08-30-2010, 11:18 AM
Jim Thome hit only .217 with one home run in May. Mark Kotsay hit .261 with four home runs in May. The White Sox were 13-14 in May. The next losing month the White Sox had was August. Both Thome and Kotsay are hitting .298 in August. Even for the season, Thome has only four more RBIs with runners in scoring position than Thome does and Thome has two more plate appearances in those situations. In many of Kotsay's bad offensive games the Sox won anyway. In many games the Sox lost, he didn't have a chance to change the outcome.

I don't think it's so clear cut that having Thome in the lineup over Kotsay would have led to more wins.

But I won't insult anyone who believes otherwise.

:rolling:

That's the best you could do? One whole month? Bra-vo.

:rolling:

Rdy2PlayBall
08-30-2010, 11:21 AM
That's the best you could do? One whole month? Bra-vo.
2 months.

harwar
08-30-2010, 11:22 AM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/318621659/bobs_twittericon_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BNightengale) BNightengale (http://twitter.com/BNightengale)
#mlb (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23mlb) #whitesox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23whitesox) #dodgers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23dodgers) Manny is on way to Cleveland. Should be in Sox lineup tonite.

Since he was told right after the game that he was going to the White Sox i thought he would fly up then .. anyway let the Manny era begin .. i wouldn't expect him to tear it up right off the bat since he hasn't played all that much .. first cleveland and then boston .. bad timing since those fans will really be on him ..

veeter
08-30-2010, 11:25 AM
I don't know who this Nightengale guy is, but :bandance:I'm excited too. Rios, Konerko, Manny, Quentin...pretty nice. Does a Manny Ramirez take a private jet to Cleveland? I just can't see Manny standing in line at an airport somewhere, taking off his shoes.

veeter
08-30-2010, 11:26 AM
Since he was told right after the game that he was going to the White Sox i thought he would fly up then .. anyway let the Manny era begin .. i wouldn't expect him to tear it up right off the bat since he hasn't played all that much .. first cleveland and then boston .. bad timing since those fans will really be on him ..I disagree. I think it's good timing.

Pablo_Honey
08-30-2010, 11:29 AM
Jim Thome hit only .217 with one home run in May. Mark Kotsay hit .261 with four home runs in May.
Ironically that was Thome's worst month and Kotsay's best month before August. And even in that month, Thome managed to get on base at a higher percentage than Kotsay.

Even for the season, Thome has only four more RBIs with runners in scoring position than Thome does and Thome has two more plate appearances in those situations.
This is why counting stats are very misleading and almost pointless, especially RBIs. Compare Thome's RISP to Kotsay's RISP. Or Thome's numbers with men on to Kotsay's numbers with men on.

I don't think it's so clear cut that having Thome in the lineup over Kotsay would have led to more wins.
You know, I actually agree with this part. We are where we are at right now because the rotation decided to stink it up early in the season and then the pen imploded on us in a really brutal 2 week stretch. I've now realized that Thome really would not have been the difference between a division title and an early vacation.

Anyway, adding Manny does not hurt. As long as Manny doesn't stir some unnecessary **** up, we'll be fine.

WS in 05
08-30-2010, 11:44 AM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/318621659/bobs_twittericon_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BNightengale) BNightengale (http://twitter.com/BNightengale)
#mlb (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23mlb) #whitesox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23whitesox) #dodgers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23dodgers) Manny is on way to Cleveland. Should be in Sox lineup tonite.

Is this true? I am in Cleveland right now for the series. Can't wait to hear Clevelands reaction. I was here for thomes first game when these scumbags booed him.

Can't wait for tonights game. 9 rows behind sox dugout(hoping to move closer, cause it's Cleveland and there shouldn't be many people there)

eriqjaffe
08-30-2010, 11:47 AM
Is this true? I am in Cleveland right now for the series. Can't wait to hear Clevelands reaction. I was here for thomes first game when these scumbags booed him.

Can't wait for tonights game. 9 rows behind sox dugout(hoping to move closer, cause it's Cleveland and there shouldn't be many people there)I would think that the Ramirez reaction wouldn't be particularly strong - heck, he left Cleveland nearly ten years ago, and Indians fans would have had plenty of chances to vent when he was with Boston.

kobo
08-30-2010, 11:53 AM
I would think that the Ramirez reaction wouldn't be particularly strong - heck, he left Cleveland nearly ten years ago, and Indians fans would have had plenty of chances to vent when he was with Boston.
They still boo Thome. They will boo Ramirez.

I would have liked the team to have gone out and gotten a reliever, but they must have had faith in Thornton and Putz to recover quickly which is why they went after a hitter. And aside from the bullpen implosion the one thing people have bitched the most about this season is the lack of a true DH. Now we have one and people still bitch. I know the guy's character is questionable, but if he puts up numbers like he has in the past he will help this team. I like the guy, and I'm excited to see what he does in a White Sox uniform.

WhiteSox1989
08-30-2010, 12:03 PM
If anything, at least he'll make the last month of the season interesting.

hawkjt
08-30-2010, 12:10 PM
:rolling:

That's the best you could do? One whole month? Bra-vo.

:rolling:

In August and Sept of 2009, Thome hit .215 with an oba of .280.
He looked just as done as Jermaine Dye. I was ready to move on.
Even Kotsay at .294 with ability to play several positions looked better in the offseason for DH.

Thome has had a shocking revival in Minny, I give you that. But, I cannot fault Kenny for not bringing back a slow, injury prone 39 year old who finished the season fading badly. Not rational to second guess that decision.

palehozenychicty
08-30-2010, 12:15 PM
In August and Sept of 2009, Thome hit .215 with an oba of .280.
He looked just as done as Jermaine Dye. I was ready to move on.
Even Kotsay at .294 with ability to play several positions looked better in the offseason for DH.

Thome has had a shocking revival in Minny, I give you that. But, I cannot fault Kenny for not bringing back a slow, injury prone 39 year old who finished the season fading badly. Not rational to second guess that decision.

Exactly.

doublem23
08-30-2010, 12:15 PM
In August and Sept of 2009, Thome hit .215 with an oba of .280.
He looked just as done as Jermaine Dye. I was ready to move on.
Even Kotsay at .294 with ability to play several positions looked better in the offseason for DH.

Thome has had a shocking revival in Minny, I give you that. But, I cannot fault Kenny for not bringing back a slow, injury prone 39 year old who finished the season fading badly. Not rational to second guess that decision.

What are these "multiple positions" Kotsay can play? OK, he can back up Konerko at 1B, that still doesn't justify at all the PT he's recieved. Hey, I was fine with moving on from Thome, too. Replacing him with other worn down, washed up vets like Jones and Kotsay? Pointless.

TDog
08-30-2010, 12:24 PM
... We are where we are at right now because the rotation decided to stink it up early in the season and then the pen imploded on us in a really brutal 2 week stretch. I've now realized that Thome really would not have been the difference between a division title and an early vacation. ...

That's the bottom line. And I don't believe there were many games the White Sox lost where Kotsay didn't contribute that where having Thome in the lineup would have made a difference, and that's assuming the games where Kotsay made a difference offensively wins, Thome would have done the same.

It isn't just a matter of plugging in players with the best numbers. You might do that at the beginning of the season to give your team a chance the best chance to win (although at the beginning of the season you are only guessing at what the numbers will be). In retrospect you see wins that where there were games that could have been won and games where Thome wouldn't have made a difference. Even in April, Kotsay's worst month, he homered in a one-run win against the Twins.

The White Sox were 18-9 in June and 18-8 in July. Kotsay hit just .210 in July, but replacing him with Thome wouldn't have made the White Sox 22-4 for the month.

I liked Jim Thome when he played for the Sox. His bobblehead is on a bookshelf in my office, between Bobby Thigpen and Bill Melton. But I don't think he would have made the difference that people insist he would have. If pitchers had pitched around him, someone else would have had to drive him in, and in April and May, that wasn't happening with players other than Kotsay.

Kotsay isn't to blame for the White Sox being behind the Twins by 4.5 games. A couple of weeks ago, the Twins picked up five games on the White Sox in the course of just one week, and that can be attributed chiefly to the White Sox bullpen losing late leads.

russ99
08-30-2010, 12:26 PM
What are these "multiple positions" Kotsay can play? OK, he can back up Konerko at 1B, that still doesn't justify at all the PT he's recieved. Hey, I was fine with moving on from Thome, too. Replacing him with other worn down, washed up vets like Jones and Kotsay? Pointless.

I thought this thread was about Manny ?:D:

Those washed up vets were signed to be bench players, and since Kenny didn't add a bat until now, they took on more of a role than originally planned.

And for those who want to wail about Ozzie thinking that was enough, he's the voice of the franchise, what's he gonna say "these guys stink and there's no point in playing any games"? Every team has wishful thinking when it comes to players who are question marks.

cards press box
08-30-2010, 12:26 PM
TDog, last I looked, Thome's OPS+ was the highest it had been since his first year with the Sox. I don't know what rejuvenated him. :smile:

I do -- for the first half of the 2010 season, Thome played about twice a week. In fairness, the Sox didn't think that Thome would be effective in a part-time role off the bench because he has a long swing. I think that the Sox were right about that. The Twins, in a sense, got lucky because the lack of playing time in the first half kept Thome fresh for when they really needed him -- in the second half to essentially replace Justin Morneau in the lineup. Posters here have beaten up the Sox for not signing Thome but it was probably the right decision. Thome can't play a full season and he's not great off the bench. He is great insurance if what you need is a slugger to replace another slugger for half a season. It is, of course, possible that even with his limited playing time, Thome is beginning to wear down. He left Saturday's game with a bad back.

As for Manny, I have a hunch that he will have a great month. I hope it is enough to get the Sox into the playoffs.

kjhanson
08-30-2010, 12:29 PM
Thome is batting .266, is getting on base nearly 4 out of every 10 times he steps to the plate, and is slugging .585. He's having a great season, the only ones who can't admit it are the ones with their heads stuck in the sand.

Jim Thome is having a good season. To have a great season, you have to, well, you know, play every day? Face it, he's in the best possible situation for him to succeed. He recently played seven consecutive days for the first time all season. Before that, he played in five straight games a grand total of one time. He's been getting a lot of rest and is putting up good numbers (to the untrained eye, see below) when he plays.

RISP: .238/.390/.444
2 outs, RISP: .161/.350/.290
Late & Close: .130/.259/.304

GoSox2K3
08-30-2010, 12:44 PM
That's the bottom line. And I don't believe there were many games the White Sox lost where Kotsay didn't contribute that where having Thome in the lineup would have made a difference, and that's assuming the games where Kotsay made a difference offensively wins, Thome would have done the same.

It isn't just a matter of plugging in players with the best numbers. You might do that at the beginning of the season to give your team a chance the best chance to win (although at the beginning of the season you are only guessing at what the numbers will be). In retrospect you see wins that where there were games that could have been won and games where Thome wouldn't have made a difference. Even in April, Kotsay's worst month, he homered in a one-run win against the Twins.

The White Sox were 18-9 in June and 18-8 in July. Kotsay hit just .210 in July, but replacing him with Thome wouldn't have made the White Sox 22-4 for the month.

I liked Jim Thome when he played for the Sox. His bobblehead is on a bookshelf in my office, between Bobby Thigpen and Bill Melton. But I don't think he would have made the difference that people insist he would have. If pitchers had pitched around him, someone else would have had to drive him in, and in April and May, that wasn't happening with players other than Kotsay.

Kotsay isn't to blame for the White Sox being behind the Twins by 4.5 games. A couple of weeks ago, the Twins picked up five games on the White Sox in the course of just one week, and that can be attributed chiefly to the White Sox bullpen losing late leads.

We have lost 16 games this season when holding the other team to 3 runs or less. I don't care when they happened: April, during our hot streak, or August - they still count just as much in the standings as the games we lost because of our bullpen.

There were plenty of games that we lost where Kotsay or Jones did absolutely nothing other than strike out, ground into a double play or ground out to 2nd.

4.5 games out on Aug 30 starts to become a big hurdle to overcome. Things would be much different if we had another hitter to squeeze out a few more wins here and there throughout the season.

Just because the bullpen has melted down over the last few weeks doesn't mean the Sox have had no other problems this year, shouldn't have tried to put a better hitter in the heart of our lineup, or that those low scoring games we lost over the course of the year didn't matter.

delben91
08-30-2010, 12:44 PM
I was so hoping this would turn into a Thome/Kotsay thread.

Yay!!!! :D::D::D::D::D::D::D::D::D::D::D:

ZombieRob
08-30-2010, 12:49 PM
anyword if he'll be in uniform tonight?

Huisj
08-30-2010, 12:58 PM
anyword if he'll be in uniform tonight?

The word from the twitter post reference a page or two back in this thread said yes.

KMcMahon817
08-30-2010, 12:59 PM
anyword if he'll be in uniform tonight?

He is believed to be in CLE tonight. Hopefully that means he'll be in the lineup as well.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 01:03 PM
Back to Manny, here's an article (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_25_223/ai_54979535/) from his Cleveland days. Thought some folks might enjoy it since it quotes Vizquel pretty heavily.

VMSNS
08-30-2010, 01:03 PM
Knowing Ozzie's obsession with tinkering and having our DH's play the field, does anyone think we'll be seeing Manny at all in LF?

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 01:05 PM
Here's another story (http://baseball.about.com/b/2008/06/01/they-broke-the-mold-on-manny-ramirez.htm) from the way back machine.

Sockinchisox
08-30-2010, 01:07 PM
anyword if he'll be in uniform tonight?

He's supposedly in route to Cleveland and is expected to be in the lineup tonight.

cws05champ
08-30-2010, 01:09 PM
Knowing Ozzie's obsession with tinkering and having our DH's play the field, does anyone think we'll be seeing Manny at all in LF?
He'll be in CF and bat lead off as a big **** you to Kenny :D:

GoGoCrede
08-30-2010, 01:10 PM
He's supposedly in route to Cleveland and is expected to be in the lineup tonight.

God help me, I'm pumped. Too bad I probably won't be able to watch it. Can't wait to see him at the Cell.

Craig Grebeck
08-30-2010, 01:11 PM
In August and Sept of 2009, Thome hit .215 with an oba of .280.
He looked just as done as Jermaine Dye. I was ready to move on.
Even Kotsay at .294 with ability to play several positions looked better in the offseason for DH.

Thome has had a shocking revival in Minny, I give you that. But, I cannot fault Kenny for not bringing back a slow, injury prone 39 year old who finished the season fading badly. Not rational to second guess that decision.
Well, those of us that called Kotsay a bench player and Thome a legitimate DH back in January seem pretty rational now, no?

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 01:14 PM
Last article (http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol4no05ramirez01.html), as I'm really enjoying going through these pre-Boston stories.

kittle42
08-30-2010, 01:23 PM
Another stupid overused word used to denigrate those we disagree with as a substitute for real debate. No one owes you any explanation or needs your permission.

On the contrary, I am owed explanations for everything and everyone is required to obtain my permission for their varied opinions.

At least that's what I'm sticking with.

Marqhead
08-30-2010, 01:31 PM
Speaking for the few without cable, I'm super excited this game is on WGN tonight!

MANNY!

ZombieRob
08-30-2010, 01:32 PM
thanks. using ton of ram right now. so hard to brwse right now. again thanks for your answers

ilsox7
08-30-2010, 01:46 PM
Wish I could see tonight's game. Alas, I will be dining at the hottest new restaurant in the city!

Dibbs
08-30-2010, 01:50 PM
OK, we just acquire one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, and we STILL have people defending Mark Kotsay :scratch: Wow is all I will say.

The bottom line is we would probably be tied for the division lead instead of being 4.5 games back if we actually had a DH who could actually hit the ball this year. It may be too little too late, but Manny will help big time. People making arguments that Thome would not have helped the team more than Kotsay seriously need to have their heads examined.

MeteorsSox4367
08-30-2010, 01:51 PM
Just curious. Is he going to wear 99, 24 or something else?

voodoochile
08-30-2010, 01:53 PM
So uh... what's the lineup going to be?

Personally, I'd love to see something like this...


Pierre
Rios
Manny
Paulie
TCQ
AJ
TCM
Beckham
Omar

If Teahen plays 3rd instead then slide him in 8th and drop Beckham back to 9th.

GoGoCrede
08-30-2010, 01:54 PM
Speaking for the few without cable, I'm super excited this game is on WGN tonight!

MANNY!

:bandance: AWESOME! I'll be able to watch too!

Chez
08-30-2010, 01:56 PM
As for the necessary roster tweaking, I'm guesssing the Sox send down either Torres or Harrell to make room for Manny, then recall more pitching in a couple of days when rosters expand. I think we can get through two games with an eleven man staff.

eriqjaffe
08-30-2010, 02:01 PM
I think we can get through two games with an eleven man staff.If nothing else, it's fewer potential points of failure. :(:

Craig Grebeck
08-30-2010, 02:07 PM
So uh... what's the lineup going to be?

Personally, I'd love to see something like this...


Pierre
Rios
Manny
Paulie
TCQ
AJ
TCM
Beckham
Omar

If Teahen plays 3rd instead then slide him in 8th and drop Beckham back to 9th.
Yep.

downstairs
08-30-2010, 02:19 PM
Who changed the thread title to indicate this is official? I don't see anything official on any news outlet yet?

sox1970
08-30-2010, 02:25 PM
Just the cash. No players going to LA.

http://twitter.com/pgammo/status/22545997985

pythons007
08-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Who changed the thread title to indicate this is official? I don't see anything official on any news outlet yet?

Well the White Sox have claimed him. Everything points to the White Sox acquiring him either through trade or LA just drops him on them. Either way, he is going to be a White Sox player sometime today or tomorrow.

FielderJones
08-30-2010, 02:32 PM
Speaking for the few without cable, I'm super excited this game is on WGN tonight!

MANNY!

:bandance: AWESOME! I'll be able to watch too!

:thumbsup:
°Viva Over-The-Air HDTV!

downstairs
08-30-2010, 02:33 PM
Well the White Sox have claimed him. Everything points to the White Sox acquiring him either through trade or LA just drops him on them. Either way, he is going to be a White Sox player sometime today or tomorrow.

Yep, I know... I was just curious if anyone has real, official word yet. I'm sure its a 100% chance of happening... just wanted to see a real link.

Foulke You
08-30-2010, 02:34 PM
So uh... what's the lineup going to be?

Personally, I'd love to see something like this...


Pierre
Rios
Manny
Paulie
TCQ
AJ
TCM
Beckham
Omar

If Teahen plays 3rd instead then slide him in 8th and drop Beckham back to 9th.
I like this lineup as well. Moving Rios to #2 gives a bit more power at the top and you'd have to figure pitchers would challenge him more with fastballs having Manny up behind him.

FielderJones
08-30-2010, 02:36 PM
Yep, I know... I was just curious if anyone has real, official word yet. I'm sure its a 100% chance of happening... just wanted to see a real link.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100830&content_id=14096174&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

It's a White Sox link. :shrug:

daveeym
08-30-2010, 02:37 PM
I thought this thread was about Manny ?:D:

Those washed up vets were signed to be bench players, and since Kenny didn't add a bat until now, they took on more of a role than originally planned.

And for those who want to wail about Ozzie thinking that was enough, he's the voice of the franchise, what's he gonna say "these guys stink and there's no point in playing any games"? Every team has wishful thinking when it comes to players who are question marks.

I was told on friday that those washed up veterans as bench players was revisionist history.

ChiSoxGal85
08-30-2010, 02:39 PM
Not official, but Heyman reports it's a straight waiver claim - no Sox players going to LA.

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/22546497808

soxfan43
08-30-2010, 02:40 PM
Yep, I know... I was just curious if anyone has real, official word yet. I'm sure its a 100% chance of happening... just wanted to see a real link.

many of the baseball "experts" (Gammons, Stark, Nightengale, etc) are on twitter are all saying it's a done deal, a straight waiver claim. There was talk of the Dodgers eating some money and the Sox sending over a prospect but that didn't happen.

Quick update, Nightengale just posted that Manny waited until the deal was finalized before catching a flight, so he will not make it to Cleveland in time for tonight's game.

https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/22547153672

manders_01
08-30-2010, 02:49 PM
Completely off topic, but that just points to some Coloradoans' sports IQ given that if you were at the game in Denver today you could see the park emptying throughout the game (a game that was pretty good to watch), which I am convinced was just so everyone could make it in time to see their precious Donkeys in a meaningless pre-season match-up. Sorry couldn't resist to vent about one of the few downsides of living in Colorado for me - stupid Broncos fans.

I like the move and don't think it can hurt anything at this point except for Reinsdorf's pocket book. It at least shows some sort of commitment towards winning which we all haven't perceived to be the case in the past.

:offtopic: LOL I severely dislike most Broncos fans as well. In fact, I left in the 8th because my girlfriend had to get home to watch her son while her husband went to the game.

I don't agree though that Manny getting booed has anything to do with Broncos fans attending the Rockies game. I think there's just a general dislike of the man among baseball fans.

downstairs
08-30-2010, 02:51 PM
many of the baseball "experts" (Gammons, Stark, Nightengale, etc) are on twitter are all saying it's a done deal, a straight waiver claim. There was talk of the Dodgers eating some money and the Sox sending over a prospect but that didn't happen.

Quick update, Nightengale just posted that Manny waited until the deal was finalized before catching a flight, so he will not make it to Cleveland in time for tonight's game.

https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/22547153672

Makes sense, LA plays in LA tonight. It would look bad if he left and the deal fell through.

everafan
08-30-2010, 02:53 PM
I'm excited too. Rios, Konerko, Manny, Quentin...pretty nice. Does a Manny Ramirez take a private jet to Cleveland? I just can't see Manny standing in line at an airport somewhere, taking off his shoes.

I think he takes a private jet so that he can get his hair cut on the way over.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 02:53 PM
Deal is done.

rowand33
08-30-2010, 02:54 PM
Very excited this actually happened.

Looking forward to seeing him in a White Sox uniform tomorrow. Hopefully, he'll be playing baseball ina sox uniform well into october!

TheOldRoman
08-30-2010, 02:56 PM
So uh... what's the lineup going to be?

Personally, I'd love to see something like this...


Pierre
Rios
Manny
Paulie
TCQ
AJ
TCM
Beckham
Omar

If Teahen plays 3rd instead then slide him in 8th and drop Beckham back to 9th.I don't want Rios hitting 2nd and having to bunt Pierre over all the time in Ozzie's system. Under another manager, yes. Put Manny 3rd, Konerko 4th, Rios 5th, and Quentin 6th. As for 2nd, I guess you shouldn't put a really good hitter their, either, since he will have to sacrifice an inordinant amount. I am fine with Vizquel there for the rest of the year.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 02:58 PM
Maybe he'll arrive in time to pinch hit?

Sockinchisox
08-30-2010, 03:01 PM
To make room for Manny the Sox have transferred Peavy to the 60 day DL.

FielderJones
08-30-2010, 03:03 PM
Is Alexei's jersey going to be changed?

A. Ramirez
10

M Ramirez
24

Sockinchisox
08-30-2010, 03:04 PM
Not sure yet.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 03:05 PM
Fangraphs take on the deal:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-to-the-white-sox/

Choice quote:

"The team gets significantly better in a playoff race and all they have to give up is cash. Thatís the kind of move every fan should want their team to make."

ChiSoxGal85
08-30-2010, 03:08 PM
Won't be here til Tuesday.

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/22548240038

Hitmen77
08-30-2010, 03:08 PM
To make room for Manny the Sox have transferred Peavy to the 60 day DL.

That's for the 40 man roster. I wonder who they'll send down to make room for him on the 25 man roster.

Won't be here til Tuesday.

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/22548240038

Well, since some WSI posters believe that having Kotsay/Jones/Teahen at DH hasn't cost us any games, then I guess waiting one more day isn't going to make a difference. :tongue: :stirpot: :poke:
:duck:

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 03:12 PM
Won't be here til Tuesday.

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/22548240038

uejh-bHa4To

delben91
08-30-2010, 03:12 PM
That's for the 40 man roster. I wonder who they'll send down to make room for him on the 25 man roster.




Lillibridge?

soxinem1
08-30-2010, 03:15 PM
Is Alexei's jersey going to be changed?

A. Ramirez
10

M Ramirez
24

Manny has been wearing 99, hasn't he?

sox1970
08-30-2010, 03:16 PM
If he's not available to play tonight, they won't have to make a change to the 25-man until tomorrow. So don't expect anything to happen before the game starts tonight.

downstairs
08-30-2010, 03:18 PM
Unless his attitude is poisonous, there is nothing at all bad about this deal. We got him for cash!

I'd love him on the team next year too unless there's a better DH option on the free agent market.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 03:18 PM
Manny has been wearing 99, hasn't he?

24 was retired by LA.

cws05champ
08-30-2010, 03:19 PM
That's for the 40 man roster. I wonder who they'll send down to make room for him on the 25 man roster.
[/COLOR]
If he is not added until tomorrow(which would make sense) they don't have to make a move since rosters expand Sept 1st. But I'n not sure if that will work since he needs to on the roster by August 30th to be eligible for the playoffs. Harrell most likely if that is the case.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 03:21 PM
Is Alexei's jersey going to be changed?

A. Ramirez
10

M Ramirez
24

Dayan Viciedo currently has #24.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 03:23 PM
Dayan Viciedo currently has #24.

One's a future HOF. The other's a AAA player who played in roughly 30 games and is not on the team. What do you think will happen if Manny wants 24?

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 03:24 PM
One's a future HOF. The other's a AAA player who played in roughly 30 games and is not on the team. What do you think will happen if Manny wants 24?

Viciedo gets a month full of awesome meals.

kufram
08-30-2010, 03:25 PM
To make room for Manny the Sox have transferred Peavy to the 60 day DL.

I guess that's the 40-man roster, yes? Am I stupid? I wonder why Peavy isn't already on the long DL as he's out for the year.

After initial reservations, I think this a good move for a few reasons.

1) revenue- Manny will put bums on seats
2) offense- Who knows, maybe he will mash. He's been a great hitter for a long time. I don't think offense is going to cost us the post season but you can't have too much.
3) shake up- Manny's arrival could just add some enrgy to the clubhouse. If Manny is not motivated for this month and this move, he never will be motivated again.
4) salary- What's 3.5 mil to an mlb club? He might even pay for himself in revenue.

sox1970
08-30-2010, 03:26 PM
One's a future HOF. The other's a AAA player who played in roughly 30 games and is not on the team. What do you think will happen if Manny wants 24?

Not unless the Hall changes their voting procedures. He'll never get in with the writers voting.

They should give him #22 and tell him to hit the damn ball.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2010, 03:27 PM
Lillibridge?Although they would call Lillibridge back up the next day, sending him down makes him ineligible to be on the playoff roster. A players needs to be on the 25 man roster or on the DL on August 31 to be eligible. I can't see Ozzie not keeping him as a pinch runner. It wouldn't be wise to put the team in a situation where Mark Teahen is their pinch running specialist in the playoffs. Teahen is a great baserunner, but he isn't the guy you want at first with the team down by 1 in the ninth.

Foulke You
08-30-2010, 03:28 PM
I had hoped Manny would be in the lineup tonight against Mitch "Cy" Talbot who is somehow 3W-0L vs. the Sox this year. I understand why he had to wait for the flight but every game is huge for the Sox right now. :(:

Hitmen77
08-30-2010, 03:30 PM
If he is not added until tomorrow(which would make sense) they don't have to make a move since rosters expand Sept 1st. But I'n not sure if that will work since he needs to on the roster by August 30th to be eligible for the playoffs. Harrell most likely if that is the case.

Tomorrow is August 31, not September 1. Rosters don't expand until Wednesday.

fram40
08-30-2010, 03:31 PM
Although they would call Lillibridge back up the next day, sending him down makes him ineligible to be on the playoff roster. A players needs to be on the 25 man roster or on the DL on August 31 to be eligible. I can't see Ozzie not keeping him as a pinch runner. It wouldn't be wise to put the team in a situation where Mark Teahen is their pinch running specialist in the playoffs. Teahen is a great baserunner, but he isn't the guy you want at first with the team down by 1 in the ninth.

Isn't anybody available to join if someone gets hurt and goes on DL during September? All they need to do is fake an injury - and they can fill the spot. And it doesn't need to be a pitcher if a pitcher goes on the DL.

Here's a vote for the Manny acquisition ...

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 03:32 PM
Not unless the Hall changes their voting procedures. He'll never get in with the writers voting.

They should give him #22 and tell him to hit the damn ball.

Time will tell but A-Rod and Manny don't carry nearly the venom that Bonds, McGuire, and Sosa carry...who are the poster children of the roids era.

I think all 5 get in eventually. They will by no means be unanimous but I don't see how you can keep out some of the best palyers of an era out. Call it the "steroid era" wing of the museum and be done with it.

Still, after I type that I realize the all-time hits leader isn't in the Hall so what do I know, you could be right.

It's moot anyway since I don't know that I've ever heard of a major league team reserving a number for a AAA player. Number 24 is currently available as far as I'm concerned. If Viciedo doesn't like it, maybe he should have learned to draw a walk.

JermaineDye05
08-30-2010, 03:33 PM
No Manny? Then how the hell are we going to hit Mitch ****ing Talbot?

spawn
08-30-2010, 03:34 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-manny082910

DirtySox
08-30-2010, 03:35 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-manny082910

I prefer this one:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/top-posts/can-we-stop-pretending-that-manny-ramirez-isnt-any-good.php

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 03:36 PM
I guess that's the 40-man roster, yes? Am I stupid? I wonder why Peavy isn't already on the long DL as he's out for the year.



It's mostly a procedural move that as long as you don't need room on the 40 man roster, there's no reason to make. It's just paperwork for the sake of paperwork at that point.

hi im skot
08-30-2010, 03:37 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-manny082910

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/064/369/original/haters_gonna_hate.gif?1281161429

spawn
08-30-2010, 03:38 PM
I prefer this one:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/top-posts/can-we-stop-pretending-that-manny-ramirez-isnt-any-good.php

That's your choice. Of course, your aticle only talks about his offensive numbers, not his attitude. But again, it's your choice.
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/064/369/original/haters_gonna_hate.gif?1281161429
That's my choice. And I have every right to.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 03:41 PM
That's your choice.

That's my choice. And I have every right to.

You'd rather have Kotsay/Jones?

spawn
08-30-2010, 03:45 PM
You'd rather have Kotsay/Jones?
If all we were looking at were his stats, absolutely not. But that's not the only thing you get when you acquire Manny Ramiriez. I think it's hysterical that the same people on this board that wanted no part on Milton Bradly and his craziness are ecstatice over acquiring Manny ****ing Ramirez. I know, they aren't comparable statisitcally or probably mentally, but with the latter they are in the same ballpark.

tstrike2000
08-30-2010, 03:45 PM
I prefer this one:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/top-posts/can-we-stop-pretending-that-manny-ramirez-isnt-any-good.php

If Manny's directly responsible for over a run more per game, then Sergio Santos may actually have someone who can bail him out.

JermaineDye05
08-30-2010, 03:47 PM
If all we were looking at were his stats, absolutely not. But that's not the only thing you get when you acquire Manny Ramiriez. I think it's hysterical that the same people on this board that wanted no part on Milton Bradly and his craziness are ecstatice over acquiring Manny ****ing Ramirez. I know, they aren't comparable statisitcally or probably mentally, but with the latter they are in the same ballpark.

I think the majority of the people didn't want Milton Bradley also because he sucks.

You're correct they aren't comparable statistically.

Even before Milton had that horrible season with the Cubs, he still wasn't close to the level of hitter that Manny is.

Despite his craziness. Manny has the ability to carry a team (see what he did with the Dodgers when they first acquired him) whereas Bradley at his best was just an above average hitter and not a big run producer. Considering we only have Manny for a month, this deal looks good as we could pretty much have just the hitting aspect with not enough time for Manny to lapse into the laziness part of his game.

As GOB would say, "it's all chain and no ball"

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 04:04 PM
I think the majority of the people didn't want Milton Bradley also because he sucks.

You're correct they aren't comparable statistically.

Even before Milton had that horrible season with the Cubs, he still wasn't close to the level of hitter that Manny is.

Despite his craziness. Manny has the ability to carry a team (see what he did with the Dodgers when they first acquired him) whereas Bradley at his best was just an above average hitter and not a big run producer. Considering we only have Manny for a month, this deal looks good as we could pretty much have just the hitting aspect with not enough time for Manny to lapse into the laziness part of his game.

As GOB would say, "it's all chain and no ball"

This. Most people are willing to put up with a fair amount of crap if a player produces. As soon as he doesn't produce, or as soon as his production isn't enough to win a championship, the player isn't tolerated and is shipped elsewhere.

see: Swisher, Nick. or Owens, Terrell.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-30-2010, 04:18 PM
If all we were looking at were his stats, absolutely not. But that's not the only thing you get when you acquire Manny Ramiriez. I think it's hysterical that the same people on this board that wanted no part on Milton Bradly and his craziness are ecstatice over acquiring Manny ****ing Ramirez. I know, they aren't comparable statisitcally or probably mentally, but with the latter they are in the same ballpark.

Manny Ramirez is one of the best hitters of his time.

Milton Bradley is a bad baseball player, fundamentally, offensively, and mentally, who parlayed one above-average year BA-wise into a cushy contract, despite the fact that he had played for 7 teams in 7 years.

You put two players who have "issues" together, the more talented player will obviously get more slack since he has the ability to help the club win on the field. That's why you never saw Manny traded/released nearly as much as Bradley. With Bradley, the point where teams said "Screw it, he's not worth it" was a lot lower than Manny's because Bradley did not produce enough to justify his behavior.

Ramirez, although he is an asshat, is still undeniably an awesome hitter. He may not be as dominant as he was in Boston, but if you're going to take a guy who has "issues", he at least should be able to swing the stick, and Ramirez can definitely do that still.

Ranger
08-30-2010, 04:24 PM
This is very typical of the White Sox, the pitching is not great, the defense is questionable at best, so the answer must be to go get a hitter, that will fix it.

The issue is availability. There really isn't any pitching help that's possible for them to acquire. Trust me, if they could, they would get it.

Manny won't hurt them, but I'm not sure how much of a difference-maker he will be. They're already getting all sorts of offense this month, and they're still losing games.

Dibbs
08-30-2010, 04:32 PM
Manny won't hurt them, but I'm not sure how much of a difference-maker he will be.

I think it is obvious he makes a pretty big difference. We had the worst DH in the league when Kotsay was playing almost everyday. Now, we arguably have the best DH in the league.

It is hard to make the playoffs when you are playing a guy everyday that most likely couldn't make any other roster even if he were to play for free. I would imagine Kotsay is out of the league next year. I can't imagine someone picking him up.

doublem23
08-30-2010, 04:34 PM
It is hard to make the playoffs when you are playing a guy everyday that most likely couldn't make any other roster even if he were to play for free. I would imagine Kotsay is out of the league next year. I can't imagine someone picking him up.

If the rumors about Ozzie moving on from the Sox are true, I'm Kotsay will find a job.

kittle42
08-30-2010, 04:40 PM
If the rumors about Ozzie moving on from the Sox are true, I'm Kotsay will find a job.

Maybe he'll be Ozzie's Neifi Perez!

TDog
08-30-2010, 04:47 PM
If all we were looking at were his stats, absolutely not. But that's not the only thing you get when you acquire Manny Ramiriez. I think it's hysterical that the same people on this board that wanted no part on Milton Bradly and his craziness are ecstatice over acquiring Manny ****ing Ramirez. I know, they aren't comparable statisitcally or probably mentally, but with the latter they are in the same ballpark.

Before the 1972 season, I read a season preview of the the White Sox in a national publication that said Richie Allen would destroy the chemistry of the good young up-and-coming White Sox team. It's easy for White Sox fans to forget how moody a bad boy Allen was for his day. And the Phillies traded him for Curt Flood, who refused to report and sued baseball in a case that went all the way to the Supreme Court. Fun times.

Of course, Allen demanded people call him Dick and he had an MVP season. He might have been on his way to another when he got hurt shortly after Carlos May, and the 1973 Sox disappeared from contention. Then in 1974, he lost interest and quit the team. But the 1972 White Sox was far better than the 1977 White Sox and with the second-best record in the American League, came closer to making the postseason than any team between 1967 and 1983.

I'm not suggesting that Ramirez is Dick Allen reincarnated, especially since Allen was still alive the last I heard. But I would suggest people give Ramirez a chance to help the team. He can't do any worse than Rios did last year. He probably couldn't do any worse than Rios is doing this month.

cws05champ
08-30-2010, 04:49 PM
If all we were looking at were his stats, absolutely not. But that's not the only thing you get when you acquire Manny Ramiriez. I think it's hysterical that the same people on this board that wanted no part on Milton Bradly and his craziness are ecstatice over acquiring Manny ****ing Ramirez. I know, they aren't comparable statisitcally or probably mentally, but with the latter they are in the same ballpark.

It's ONE MONTH!!! Not a 3 yr $30M contract. That's the difference......

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2010, 04:54 PM
The issue is availability. There really isn't any pitching help that's possible for them to acquire. Trust me, if they could, they would get it.

Manny won't hurt them, but I'm not sure how much of a difference-maker he will be. They're already getting all sorts of offense this month, and they're still losing games.

You are right, the bullpen and to some extent the starting pitching has been costing far more games than hitting. That being said, if you can't find away to improve the pitching then your second best option is to find away to score more runs. It's not ideal but it's better than doing nothing.

I'm curious as to where people think all this bullpen help will come from. Brian Fuentes is the only name that's been traded via waivers that is any good, and I'm not sure I'd want the White Sox trading a prospect to acquire him when Thornton is due back Thursday.

We got Manny in exchange for Jerry Reinsdorf's cash. Why are people upset about this?

Pablo_Honey
08-30-2010, 04:58 PM
We got Manny in exchange for Jerry Reinsdorf's cash. Why are people upset about this?
I can see why people would be upset. Manny's a well-known headcase and more importantly, a steroid user. The Sox have been fairly clean in regards to steroids and troublesome personalities (Everett doesn't count. The dude was just crazy, nothing more). It's all about maintaining integrity and trading for Manny goes against that, I guess. I personally have no problem with it because anything that makes this team better at this point is always great, but I'd rather steer clear of juicers in the nearby future.

doublem23
08-30-2010, 04:59 PM
We got Manny in exchange for Jerry Reinsdorf's cash. Why are people upset about this?

Because Manny is a very polarizing figure.

If the Sox signed him to a 2-year contract, I'd have reservations. For one month, eh, I am hopeful he can behave himself. It's not like I have much hope the Sox can win without him.

Craig Grebeck
08-30-2010, 05:00 PM
I can see why people would be upset. Manny's a well-known headcase and more importantly, a steroid user. The Sox have been fairly clean in regards to steroids and troublesome personalities (Everett doesn't count. The dude was just crazy, nothing more). It's all about maintaining integrity and trading for Manny goes against that, I guess. I personally have no problem with it because anything that makes this team better at this point is always great, but I'd rather steer clear of juicers in the nearby future.
I think you mean "known" juicers. I'm sure we've had our fair share of former users on this ballclub -- it's inevitable.

spawn
08-30-2010, 05:00 PM
It's ONE MONTH!!! Not a 3 yr $30M contract. That's the difference......
I don't want this cancer on the team for ONE DAY (I can use all caps too!), but I guess it's too late for that.

spawn
08-30-2010, 05:03 PM
I can see why people would be upset. Manny's a well-known headcase and more importantly, a steroid user. The Sox have been fairly clean in regards to steroids and troublesome personalities (Everett doesn't count. The dude was just crazy, nothing more). It's all about maintaining integrity and trading for Manny goes against that, I guess. I personally have no problem with it because anything that makes this team better at this point is always great, but I'd rather steer clear of juicers in the nearby future.
I'm glad someone gets it. We may not agree with him being on the team as you have stated you have no problem with it, but I commend you for actually seeing it from the other side of the coin as well.

kufram
08-30-2010, 05:03 PM
Time will tell but A-Rod and Manny don't carry nearly the venom that Bonds, McGuire, and Sosa carry...who are the poster children of the roids era.

I think all 5 get in eventually. They will by no means be unanimous but I don't see how you can keep out some of the best palyers of an era out. Call it the "steroid era" wing of the museum and be done with it.

Still, after I type that I realize the all-time hits leader isn't in the Hall so what do I know, you could be right.

It's moot anyway since I don't know that I've ever heard of a major league team reserving a number for a AAA player. Number 24 is currently available as far as I'm concerned. If Viciedo doesn't like it, maybe he should have learned to draw a walk.


In my mind you keep out the best players because they cheated to become "the best players". It would be an insult to the Frank Thomases of this world. I don't consider Bonds, MacGwires, or Sosas big home run years to be legit.

Pablo_Honey
08-30-2010, 05:04 PM
I think you mean "known" juicers. I'm sure we've had our fair share of former users on this ballclub -- it's inevitable.
Yup, that's what I meant. Players that have been publicly busted for 'roids. It's sad that almost every top player should be treated as guilty until proven otherwise, when seemingly legit hitters like Manny and A-Rod have admitted steroid usages.