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View Full Version : Joe Poz rates managers as players


kaufsox
08-27-2010, 02:34 PM
Like Joe says in the piece, not original but still fun. I really liked the Ozzie piece, especially the Bill James bit, quoted en toto:

5. Ozzie Guillen, Chicago White Sox
Ozzie — counterintuitively — is one of Bill James favorite players BECAUSE Bill cannot quite quantify him. His offensive statistics were usually horrifying — he had a 68 career OPS+ — and Bill knew this better than anyone, but Bill could not help but believe that Ozzie was better than the stats. Bill was so mesmerized by Ozzie, that in the New Historical Abstract he invented what he called the “Ozzie Guillen Award,” which went to the player in any given decade who walked the least. And still, in the Guillen comment, Bill wrote:

“A gregarious, friendly player whose abilities escape the statistics, perhaps more than any other player I ever saw … He was play so well, when the game was on the line, that I could never understand how his could look so mediocre in the end-of-season stats.”

Ozzie, as you might expect, is more blunt about himself as a player. “I was a horse(bleep) hitter,” he says. (see Gardenhire, Ron).

for the rest of the article go to Posnanski's article

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/08/26/managers-as-players/

Coops4Aces
08-27-2010, 02:47 PM
Ozzie was a garbage player. I can't believe he lasted as long as he did. Seriously, he was worse than BA.

TheOldRoman
08-27-2010, 03:00 PM
Ozzie was a garbage player. I can't believe he lasted as long as he did. Seriously, he was worse than BA.Not even close, and that was in a different era. Ozzie would never make it in today's game.

Coops4Aces
08-27-2010, 03:04 PM
Not even close, and that was in a different era. Ozzie would never make it in today's game.
I'm wrong?

WhiteSox5187
08-27-2010, 03:06 PM
I'm wrong?

Yes, Ozzie was in a defense first position where he was a very good fielder and was capable of hitting .280 or so, he just never walked. He was also very good at stealing bases until he hurt his knee.

Coops4Aces
08-27-2010, 03:08 PM
Yes, Ozzie was in a defense first position where he was a very good fielder and was capable of hitting .280 or so, he just never walked. He was also very good at stealing bases until he hurt his knee.
BA was just as good at defense and he had a higher career OBP, SLG, and OPS.

eriqjaffe
08-27-2010, 03:31 PM
BA was just as good at defense and he had a higher career OBP, SLG, and OPS.BA was also an outfielder in the 2000's. Apples and oranges.

Pablo_Honey
08-27-2010, 03:32 PM
BA was just as good at defense and he had a higher career OBP, SLG, and OPS.
Well, who died and made you the next It's Dankerific? :tongue: Anyway, IMHO, shortstop is much harder to play and is much more important position defensively to the team. Ozzie also avoided strikeouts to make up for his lack of walk totals.

Coops4Aces
08-27-2010, 03:45 PM
Well, who died and made you the next It's Dankerific? :tongue: Anyway, IMHO, shortstop is much harder to play and is much more important position defensively to the team. Ozzie also avoided strikeouts to make up for his lack of walk totals.
No one. BA sucks, which is why I used him as an example. :D:

russ99
08-27-2010, 04:28 PM
BA was just as good at defense and he had a higher career OBP, SLG, and OPS.

Ozzie had 28 career homers in 6,600+ ABs.

Anderson had 22 in 799 ABs.

Go ahead and keep telling me that OPS and SLG have no built-in bias against players who don't hit home runs.

downstairs
08-27-2010, 04:38 PM
To say Ozzie was "bad" is just silly. He hit .260 or higher many seasons, played defense, was a 3-time all-star, Rookie of the Year.

He's no hall of famer, but the term "bad" is going too far.

Coops4Aces
08-27-2010, 05:02 PM
To say Ozzie was "bad" is just silly. He hit .260 or higher many seasons, played defense, was a 3-time all-star, Rookie of the Year.

He's no hall of famer, but the term "bad" is going too far.
He was atrocious! Career OBP of .287!

And hell yes, OPS has a bias for power hitters, but when you don't even reach base 30% of the time, you best be about to slug. Ozzie was just plan bad. I'll argue this until I'm blue in the face.

Probably the most overrated White Sox of all-time. (Unless I'm forgetting someone. At least top 5)

jdm2662
08-27-2010, 05:21 PM
He was atrocious! Career OBP of .287!

And hell yes, OPS has a bias for power hitters, but when you don't even reach base 30% of the time, you best be about to slug. Ozzie was just plan bad. I'll argue this until I'm blue in the face.

Probably the most overrated White Sox of all-time. (Unless I'm forgetting someone. At least top 5)

There was a time when shortstop was a defense only position. Obviously, since the game is more offensive now, Ozzie probably wouldn't be a regular starter for as long as we was. It's the same thing with QBs in football. The stats from the old days are much lower than the ones today because there were differnent rules, the game was more run oriented, etc.

SephClone89
08-28-2010, 10:30 AM
To say Ozzie was "bad" is just silly. He hit .260 or higher many seasons, played defense, was a 3-time all-star, Rookie of the Year.

He's no hall of famer, but the term "bad" is going too far.

:welcome:

Where anything short of good is "bad."
On this site, you can't be just "serviceable" or "decent." You are either good or you "suck at baseball." :rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
08-28-2010, 10:48 AM
Go ahead and keep telling me that OPS and SLG have no built-in bias against players who don't hit home runs.
What are you talking about? No one would deny what you're saying, the idea is that OPS and SLG value players who hit home runs, because hitting home runs is the most productive outcome at the plate.

Batting average is biased against guys who don't get hits!

Coops4Aces
08-28-2010, 11:28 AM
:welcome:

Where anything short of good is "bad."
On this site, you can't be just "serviceable" or "decent." You are either good or you "suck at baseball." :rolleyes:

Brian Anderson=bad
Brian Anderson>Ozzie Guillen
Ozzie Guillen=bad

If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.

WhiteSox5187
08-28-2010, 02:45 PM
Brian Anderson=bad
Brian Anderson>Ozzie Guillen
Ozzie Guillen=bad

If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.

Ozzie was an All Star and there was an article about the new fangled defensive metrics which states Ozzie was one of the most underrated defensive shortstops of the 1980s. He didn't walk, but he could hit the ball the other way, hit for average, lay down bunts and steal bases (until he tore up his knee in '92). I would take a solid, gold glove defender at arguably the most important defensive position on the field who can hit .280 even if his OBP is low. But if you look at it from that goofy fantasy stand point where OBP is the only thing that matters, yes, Ozzie is bad. He won't help your fantasy team. But he helped a real baseball team.