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View Full Version : Tommy John surgery for Strasburg


doublem23
08-27-2010, 10:31 AM
The speculation running around the internet this morning is the wunderkind will be getting his elbow all blowed up.

Courtesy of Orel Hershiser via Phil Rogers: http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/08/your-morning-phil-strasburg-jackson-manny.html

Rockabilly
08-27-2010, 10:36 AM
He will be the next Mark Prior..

DirtySox
08-27-2010, 10:40 AM
That's unfortunate. :(:

soltrain21
08-27-2010, 10:42 AM
That really sucks.

ilsox7
08-27-2010, 10:47 AM
It's official (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/) (barring a different 2nd opinion).

hawkjt
08-27-2010, 10:48 AM
Just heard confirmation on the Score. Sounds like he will likely miss a full year. Shame.
This does validate Coop's comments to the NYDaily News in June when he commented that he did not think his mechanics were sound,with the inverted W, and possibly was going to have arm issues.

Coop knows pitching mechanics.

Jollyroger2
08-27-2010, 10:51 AM
Just heard confirmation on the Score. Sounds like he will likely miss a full year. Shame.
This does validate Coop's comments to the NYDaily News in June when he commented that he did not think his mechanics were sound,with the inverted W, and possibly was going to have arm issues.

Coop knows pitching mechanics.

Yep. And I remember a couple other pitching coaches on other teams noticed things wrong with him too. The Nationals coaches either noticed nothing, or ignored warning signs. Typical of a franchise who's GM is more devoted to selling tix to Philly and NY fans than his own base.

TheOldRoman
08-27-2010, 10:52 AM
That is horrible. As awesome as he could have been, I really wanted to see him succeed.

Without calling out the poster by name, I would like to again point out how ridiculously stupid it would have been to trade Floyd AND Danks for Strasburg.

g0g0
08-27-2010, 11:09 AM
That's...not surprising.

Coops4Aces
08-27-2010, 11:12 AM
That's...not surprising.

Not at all

LITTLE NELL
08-27-2010, 11:18 AM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.

102605
08-27-2010, 11:22 AM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.


I don't get it either. Look how many innings Yu Darvish in Japan throws and you wonder if more workload may actually be better.

soltrain21
08-27-2010, 11:23 AM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.

Were they throwing the same type of pitches, though? I mean, curveballs and whatnot can really do some damage to your elbow/arm.

ilsox7
08-27-2010, 11:30 AM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.

Kids do not play enough long toss and then go and throw pitches that stress the elbow way too early these days.

cws05champ
08-27-2010, 11:34 AM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.
I know they all threw more back then, but how many guys flamed out before they got to the majors because of it...or their career was very short because of it. I know there is a different philosophy to handling pitchers today partly because of the $$, but in the information age I think people just know more about these things than back in the day.

Chez
08-27-2010, 11:39 AM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.

Sure it did. Young pitchers having their careers cut short due to arm injuries has always happened. Due a Wiki search on "pitchers with arm injuries." It goes back to the early 1900's. Chuck Templeton, Tex Hughson, Nick Altrock etc. David Clyde? Even Sandy Koufax had to retire at age 30. What's amazing to me is how modern medicine has been able to detect and successfully treat serious arm injuries. That Tommy John surgery carries with it a 90% success rate (depending on your definition of "success") is incredible. I hope Strasburg returns to form -- he was fun to watch.

Red Barchetta
08-27-2010, 12:09 PM
The first thing I thought of after watching him pitch was "Kerry Wood". Similar mechanics and now, unfortunately, similar results.

PatK
08-27-2010, 12:11 PM
Kids do not play enough long toss and then go and throw pitches that stress the elbow way too early these days.

Watching the Little League World Series, they said studies have de-bunked that kids arms are being injured by throwing curves, sliders, etc. and that high pitch counts is the main reason for arm injuries.

EnglishChiSox
08-27-2010, 12:23 PM
This is why you don't put people in the hall of fame before they throw a pitch, yes i'm looking at you ESPN

tstrike2000
08-27-2010, 12:24 PM
Unfortunate and too bad for the Natinals since they've had to go through this with Zimmermann already. Only positive for them is they'll have him back in 18 months or less and Zimmermann is pitching now.

delben91
08-27-2010, 12:35 PM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.

One opinion (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/13824602/want-to-save-arms-from-blowing-out-dont-put-them-in-coach), kids starting to throw hard, and year-round at age 12. Not sure what little league may have been like "back in the day" but betting traveling teams and year round leagues weren't the norm. Think of a kid in 3 different leagues maybe being "eligible" to start 3 games a week and doing that for 6 years before going to college or getting drafted.

SI1020
08-27-2010, 12:45 PM
None of the explanations about why many pitchers are so fragile these days comes close to satisfying me. I will say that the first time I saw Strasburg pitch I thought of Kerry Wood. One man thinks he has some answers. I don't know enough to support or criticize his theories. I do know that he has a track record and is largely being ignored.

http://drmikemarshall.com/

Pablo_Honey
08-27-2010, 12:46 PM
I wasn't a big fan of his mechanics but at the same time, I thought it wasn't that bad to cause such a major injury so early in his career. He's got a faster tempo than Prior and he incorporates a little bit of lower half into his mechanics. He does have a rather poor finish to his mechanics but it isn't Peavy-bad. I know his arm action had the believers of inverted W cringe, but last time I checked, both inverted W and inverted L have yet to be biologically supported. So, I guess his body couldn't just withstand the stress of throwing the ridiculous stuff for 5+ innings. Shame, thought he was going to establish himself very fast.

Craig Grebeck
08-27-2010, 01:25 PM
TJS is not the horrible thing it used to be. Stephen will be back.

downstairs
08-27-2010, 01:38 PM
Whats going on with all these pitchers blowing out their arms?
This never happenned back in the day with pitchers starting every 4th day and throwing tons of innings and complete games.

Actually, it is because of modern medicine that you *notice* any of this. Back in the day, Strasburg would have been a non-story. Heck, he'd probably have blown something out long before he was considered for being drafted.

He has mechanics that are begging for arm injury. However, with modern medicine they can prop him up and push him through a Kerry Wood/Mark Prior type of career.

I'm sure he'll have 10 more trips to the DL before he finally shuts it down in X number of years.

TheOldRoman
08-27-2010, 01:44 PM
TJS is not the horrible thing it used to be. Stephen will be back.Yes, but there are a lot of things to consider. First off, being the end of the season he will be ready for spring of 2012 at the earliest. Giving him the normal 1 year grace period, he won't be good again until 2013 at the earliest. It took Liriano 2 bad seasons to get back to being a good pitcher, and he still isn't even close to the pitcher he was in 2006 (though that may have been a fluke). There is no telling if he will have the same ability and potential he did before.

The most important thing to take from this is that his delivery is incredibly flawed, and he will be an injury risk as long as he throws that way. If the Nats teach him the throw a different way, it might take a whole year just to learn that. Then take into account that his current delivery likely adds movement and maybe speed to certain pitches, and you have a problem. So, the Nats may be faced with either letting him be the next Kerry Wood or making him change his delivery and become a worse pitcher who can stay healthy. I can't see them changing his delivery.

downstairs
08-27-2010, 01:45 PM
This is why you don't put people in the hall of fame before they throw a pitch, yes i'm looking at you ESPN

Right. Or, beyond that, you actually report on the full story. I would have been interested in hearing more about the dangers of his mechanics from actual experts. I understand things need to be hyped. I don't like it personally, but whatever- people love drama. But they ignored (almost completely) the injury perspective and the comparisons to Wood and Prior. I'm sure someone off-handedly mentioned it, but it turns out THAT was the story.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-27-2010, 02:01 PM
It's a shame... WAY too early. Maybe he will one of the lucky ones who comes out of it better than ever and injury free. I see it as lucky he's gotten enough dough to have a decent life, how unfair that may be. Hopefully he recovers though, and learns a way to avoid hurting himself.

thomas35forever
08-27-2010, 02:02 PM
That's quite a blow. It's too bad because he has so much potential. Imagine being the hottest player in baseball and then facing Tommy John surgery 2 1/2 months later. I can't believe the Prior comparisons, but they seem to be very accurate.

khan
08-27-2010, 03:29 PM
Too bad for Strasburg. Here's hoping he recovers soon.


On the other hand, the 4-letter network's hero-worship of him was nauseating. I hate those clowns with the FIRE of 1,000 suns!

LoveYourSuit
08-27-2010, 04:28 PM
TJS is not the horrible thing it used to be. Stephen will be back.


Not horrible for the player. But horrible for the Nationals.

They just lose another year of service on him, making him that much closer to FA. Plus, to me recovery on that is more like 2 seasons. The year you are on the shelf and the year that you comeback and build your way (see Liriano).

Bob Roarman
08-27-2010, 04:32 PM
I wonder if their baseball announcer Rob Dibble still thinks he should just fight through the pain and play?

TheOldRoman
08-27-2010, 04:47 PM
Not horrible for the player. But horrible for the Nationals.

They just lose another year of service on him, making him that much closer to FA. Plus, to me recovery on that is more like 2 seasons. The year you are on the shelf and the year that you comeback and build your way (see Liriano).They don't lose a year of service time while he is out the entire season. He won't be on the 25 man roster while he is out with the injury. They would only have the 1-2 years of ineffective pitching while recoving from the injury.

Luke
08-27-2010, 04:50 PM
Good read on his mechanics and the inverted W.

http://www.proballnw.com/03-2009/strasburg-drafting-bad-mechanics/

TDog
08-27-2010, 05:13 PM
Were they throwing the same type of pitches, though? I mean, curveballs and whatnot can really do some damage to your elbow/arm.

Fastballs put much less strain on your arm than curveballs do. But Bert Blyleven pitched in the majors from his teens into his 40s. He wasn't a very effective pitcher late in his career, but he was around for a very long time throwing curveballs. Curveballs go back to the 19th century.

Split-fingered fastballs, as effective as they might be compared to the circle change, seem to reduce fastball velocity. I saw it with Jack Morris in the 1980s and it may be what is going on with Tim Lincecum now. For the most part, though, there isn't a huge difference between what pitchers do now and what they did in the 1980s, when the split-fingered fastball became popular. And there wasn't a huge difference between pitching in the 1980s and the 1960s or 1950s. (There was a brief time in the 1970s when the designated hitter rule was first put into place that starting pitchers went very deep into games, and with four-man rotations, there was a season when the American League had at least 10 20-game winners, but it wasn't arm injuries that put an end to that trend.)

But among adults, it isn't about pitch count. You don't want little leaguers throwing curves (cut fastballs are probably OK), and they shouldn't be overworked because they are still developing. That applies into high school.

The good news for Strasburg is that he already has had a huge payday, and, unlike 40 years ago, this isn't necessarily a career-ending injury. The Nationals might never pay a pitcher big bucks again. They seemed to be careful that they didn't overwork Strasburg. And I don't believe they did. If they did, he wasn't going to be much of a pitcher anyway. There are "lesser" pitchers who pitch a lot more than Strasburg did this with as much success, although they struck out fewer hitters.

It doesn't matter how good a pitcher you are if you're not giving your team innings. When you go out and do it, you can be called a great pitcher.

slavko
08-27-2010, 05:16 PM
The speculation running around the internet this morning is the wunderkind will be getting his elbow all blowed up.

Courtesy of Orel Hershiser via Phil Rogers: http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/08/your-morning-phil-strasburg-jackson-manny.html

Ironic to have Hershiser quoted in reference to Strasburg when he had the inverted W problem too. I saw Prior, not Wood in him, not that I know anything, I'm just a fan. He just looked too wingy to me. I hope his contract was insured for the Nats sake.

Pablo_Honey
08-27-2010, 05:45 PM
The good news for Strasburg is that he already has had a huge payday, and, unlike 40 years ago, this isn't necessarily a career-ending injury. The Nationals might never pay a pitcher big bucks again. They seemed to be careful that they didn't overwork Strasburg. And I don't believe they did. If they did, he wasn't going to be much of a pitcher anyway. There are "lesser" pitchers who pitch a lot more than Strasburg did this with as much success, although they struck out fewer hitters.

It doesn't matter how good a pitcher you are if you're not giving your team innings. When you go out and do it, you can be called a great pitcher.
I'd insert like a thousand roll eyes smilies but I do realize you are entitled to your opinion so I'll just let it pass.

Anyways, the Nats didn't really have a choice in regards to drafting Strasburg. There was a MASSIVE hype around him as the next big thing, and rightfully so because he had easily the best combination of stuff and command in a long time. Remember when Pirates picked Moskos over Wieters? The fans went LIVID at the Pirates brass so they had to calm them down by drafting Alvarez. Yeah, the Nats couldn't afford to make a decision like that, which would destroy their image even further. Strasburg would be costly but he would also be a big draw thanks to the massive hype around him. It was a no-brainer pick.

But even without considering the publicity stuff, Strasburg was easily THE best prospect in the draft. NO ONE ELSE came even close to the potential Strasburg had. Just look at how the guys that went after him fared this year. It's not pretty. Now, was there a concern for injury? Absolutely, just as how there are injury risks for a lot of the prospects. But even with that in mind, Strasburg was too good of a prospect. Also, human bodies are so fickle that you can't predict an injury unless there were glaring red flags like huge recoiling or slow tempo caused by lack of lower half movements. Strasburg didn't show any major flaws in his mechanics. He could have done some things better but overall, he had an average mechanic that in no shape screamed TJ surgery so early in his career.

And I'm sorry to be very rude here, but the bolded statement is just idiotic. For example, I bet Kenny would never go get another proven veteran after how Peavy **** the bed and then forced Kenny to get a pitcher by getting injured. No, Kenny will keep pulling off trades like that. There is a risk involved with a lot of the decisions. Anything can happen in baseball and if you don't risk to gamble, you never go anywhere in life. Just look at how disastrous our farm system has been. The Sox brass didn't want to dish out the dough on better prospects for fear of failures. Instead they stuck with drafting safe picks that would also cost them a lot less money. The Nats needed to draft a guy like Strasburg to get out of the ****hole they were in. And I'm about 101% sure that they will keep making same kinds of investments any time in the future.

Also, pitching a lot of innings doesn't mean you are a good pitcher. This isn't the Dead Ball Era for ****'s sake. These days, every team carries a very deep bullpen (quantity wise, not quality). There is no expectation to finish the games as a pitcher. A great pitcher can shut'em down for 6-7 innings. That's what Strasburg would've done had it not been for pitch count limitations. Sure, there are freaks like Roy Halladay who goes even deeper into games and finishes the games a lot, but he's easily the top pitcher in the league and a very rare breed. Stras is still young and has shown a lot in limited playing time. Considering the cirumstances, he's been great IMHO. OF course, you are entitled to your opinion but I don't get how you just ignore everything else in favour or inning totals.

Craig Grebeck
08-27-2010, 06:06 PM
Don't bother, TDog can't separate what people saw in Strasburg's potential and what he thinks people saw in Strasburg's present performance. He's completely blind to the issue.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-27-2010, 06:38 PM
Wow. That organization finally gets something good going and this happens. Looks like he very well could go down as the biggest bust/disappointment if he can't recover his dominant stuff after the surgery. Unfortunate for him, Nats fans, and that organization. Maybe the Sox should be a little more careful with Sale. He's got that inverted W too.

TDog
08-27-2010, 07:45 PM
I'd insert like a thousand roll eyes smilies but I do realize you are entitled to your opinion so I'll just let it pass. ...

Go ahead and roll your eyes. I know what I'm talking about. Look at the the change in philosophy of the White Sox pertaining to pitcher contracts after Jaime Navarro went south for them. Everyone knows pitching is a fragile commodity. Most teams burned by the fragility will be more cautious in the future.

The Strasburg deal was one the White Sox would not have done, not because the organization is cheap, but because it wouldn't have made economic sense. If a similar opportunity is presented to the Nationals in the future, I doubt they respond with a similar contract. There is no way Strasburg should have received the deal that he did, not because he doesn't have great potential, but because he hadn't proved he was worthy of it.

In fact, I guarantee you there are teams that will use Strasburg as an example when negotiating with future pitching prospects who want huge deals.

Of course, the Navarro deal reminds us that pitching a lot of innings doesn't make you a great pitcher. But not pitching a lot of innings makes you not a great pitcher.

LoveYourSuit
08-27-2010, 08:39 PM
They don't lose a year of service time while he is out the entire season. He won't be on the 25 man roster while he is out with the injury. They would only have the 1-2 years of ineffective pitching while recoving from the injury.


You're assuming the Nationals are going to shut him down for the entire year. Isn't he due back next September or rehab?

Don't they have to put him back on the roster?

Not sure how this all works.

SI1020
08-27-2010, 09:49 PM
Good read on his mechanics and the inverted W.

http://www.proballnw.com/03-2009/strasburg-drafting-bad-mechanics/ Excellent link.

Pablo_Honey
08-27-2010, 11:05 PM
Go ahead and roll your eyes. I know what I'm talking about. Look at the the change in philosophy of the White Sox pertaining to pitcher contracts after Jaime Navarro went south for them. Everyone knows pitching is a fragile commodity. Most teams burned by the fragility will be more cautious in the future.
And yet, we've had blockbuster deals for aces like Garcia and Peavy, and didn't shy away from giving lengthy contracts to the likeness of Linebrink and Macdougal. The Sox fortunately managed to avoid disasters like Zito and Schmidt because they didn't have the dough, but I'm sure we'd have gotten one ourselves had we the resources to acquire one.

The Strasburg deal was one the White Sox would not have done, not because the organization is cheap, but because it wouldn't have made economic sense.No, I disagree. The Sox would not have done the deal because they are notorious for not spending money on young players all that often. How does it not make economic sense? If Strasburg pans out, he's a bona fide ace under team control for relatively cheap. Not to mention, all the media hype would mean bigger draws and other endorsement deals that can benefit the Sox. If Strasburg doesn't pan out, sure it sucks but even in hindsight, everyone would agree it was the right move. And don't bring up how Coop saw something wrong in him. Yeah yeah, Coop didn't like the kid's mechanics. Big deal. I'm sure he ruined his good pair of pants when he saw what kind of stuff this kid threw. He would have been on Kenny's nuts, begging him to draft him so that he can fix him.

If a similar opportunity is presented to the Nationals in the future, I doubt they respond with a similar contract. There is no way Strasburg should have received the deal that he did, not because he doesn't have great potential, but because he hadn't proved he was worthy of it.

In fact, I guarantee you there are teams that will use Strasburg as an example when negotiating with future pitching prospects who want huge deals.
All right, I thought this day would never come but we are actually on the same page for one thing at least. I do think draftees are getting paid way too much so I hope combined with Strasburg's injuries and the new CBA, kids will stop being greedy scumbags and sign for reasonable amounts in return for better conditions (See example: Sale, Chris).

And then I'm back to disagreeing with you on the implications this has on the future. Strasburg was widely regarded as a once-in-a-generation player. You just don't pass up on a guy like that even with the injury concerns. If the Nats get another chance to draft yet another once-in-a-generation player, they will get the deal done unless either they are broke or the player decides to be one senselessly greedy ****. No one thought Strasburg was going to get injured this fast. There were concerns but experts agreed that it was entirely possible for him to have a long healthy career.

Of course, the Navarro deal reminds us that pitching a lot of innings doesn't make you a great pitcher. But not pitching a lot of innings makes you not a great pitcher.
If a starter only gives you 5 innings of shutdown, then yes he is not a great pitcher (See example: Matsuzaka, Daisuke 2007). If a starter can give you at least 6 innings of shutdown, then he is a great pitcher. Strasburg is the latter if not for pitch count limit and even with pitch count limit, he had several 6+ inning outings. You do not need to complete games to be considered great. Those days of baseball have been dead for some time.

TDog
08-27-2010, 11:41 PM
...

If a starter only gives you 5 innings of shutdown, then yes he is not a great pitcher (See example: Matsuzaka, Daisuke 2007). If a starter can give you at least 6 innings of shutdown, then he is a great pitcher. Strasburg is the latter if not for pitch count limit and even with pitch count limit, he had several 6+ inning outings. You do not need to complete games to be considered great. Those days of baseball have been dead for some time.

If an elite starter is only giving you five or six innings an outing, your bullpen, he will wear out your bullpen. Unless you have better pitchers than your elite pitcher to give your bullpen some rest, you will be in trouble. Have you ever seen a bullpen go bad because of overwork?

You have to actually pitch to be considered a great pitcher, and it will be awhile before Strasburg will have a chance to do that.

The White Sox are still fairly judicious on the pitchers they commit to as far as length of contract and salary are concerned. Strasburg may end having a great career or even just a better career than Mark Prior, but like Prior with the Cubs, there is no way he was worth the deal the Nationals gave him, at least not until he proves himself.

Dibbs
08-27-2010, 11:48 PM
Wow this is a total bummer. I really like this kid. I hope he comes back even stronger like some Tommy John surgery guys have.

WhiteSox5187
08-28-2010, 12:55 AM
This hurts the Nationals not only because it will be at least 18 months for him to come back, but he generates a LOT of ticket revenue for them. That's gone now.

mjmcend
08-28-2010, 01:04 AM
If an elite starter is only giving you five or six innings an outing, your bullpen, he will wear out your bullpen. Unless you have better pitchers than your elite pitcher to give your bullpen some rest, you will be in trouble. Have you ever seen a bullpen go bad because of overwork?

You have to actually pitch to be considered a great pitcher, and it will be awhile before Strasburg will have a chance to do that.

The White Sox are still fairly judicious on the pitchers they commit to as far as length of contract and salary are concerned. Strasburg may end having a great career or even just a better career than Mark Prior, but like Prior with the Cubs, there is no way he was worth the deal the Nationals gave him, at least not until he proves himself.

So what you are saying here is basically he is not worth the money he makes, unless he is. Insightful.

TheOldRoman
08-28-2010, 01:09 AM
You're assuming the Nationals are going to shut him down for the entire year. Isn't he due back next September or rehab?

Don't they have to put him back on the roster?

Not sure how this all works.Well, if he were to come back in August/Sept of next year he would go to the minors for an extended period to get back up to speed. He won't see the bigs again until spring 2012 at the earliest.

fox23
08-28-2010, 01:15 AM
This hurts the Nationals not only because it will be at least 18 months for him to come back, but he generates a LOT of ticket revenue for them. That's gone now.

True, but this does help fox23 greatly because he can get cheap tickets for any Nats game he wants again.

palehozenychicty
08-28-2010, 10:26 AM
I was at his last start, and before he came out, the Phils were not hitting much off of him. If he can readjust his mechanics, I still think he can be a good pitcher for them. By that time, Harper should be ready as well with JZimmerman getting some experience. It could become a blessing in disguise.

DSpivack
08-28-2010, 11:14 AM
I was at his last start, and before he came out, the Phils were not hitting much off of him. If he can readjust his mechanics, I still think he can be a good pitcher for them. By that time, Harper should be ready as well with JZimmerman getting some experience. It could become a blessing in disguise.

Isn't he a few years away?

TDog
08-28-2010, 03:19 PM
So what you are saying here is basically he is not worth the money he makes, unless he is. Insightful.

You have reduced it to the tautology that it is, and yet people disagree with me.

Strasburg has not proven that he is worth the money the Nationals gave him. Maybe he never will. He wasn't signed in a fury of free-agent bidding that results in "stupid money," as the players call it. It was either sign for the Nationals or don't sign with a major league team.

But apparently the Nationals overworked him. They should have limited him to 40 or 50 pitches a game so he wouldn't get hurt. Maybe that would have been excessive. He could have been the greatest pitcher of all time if he had never pitched at all.

Pablo_Honey
08-28-2010, 03:37 PM
You have reduced it to the tautology that it is, and yet people disagree with me.

Strasburg has not proven that he is worth the money the Nationals gave him. Maybe he never will. He wasn't signed in a fury of free-agent bidding that results in "stupid money," as the players call it. It was either sign for the Nationals or don't sign with a major league team.

But apparently the Nationals overworked him. They should have limited him to 40 or 50 pitches a game so he wouldn't get hurt. Maybe that would have been excessive. He could have been the greatest pitcher of all time if he had never pitched at all.
I'm out. Too strong differences of opinion here and this argument hasn't gone anywhere for a very very very very very long time. Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion so it was foolish for me to try to enforce my thoughts on the others in the first place anyway.

Craig Grebeck
08-28-2010, 03:45 PM
Acting like the Nationals somehow had leverage over Strasburg is insane. They had zero power. They had to sign him. You don't understand.

SOXSINCE'70
08-28-2010, 03:55 PM
The first thing I thought of after watching him pitch was "Kerry Wood". Similar mechanics and now, unfortunately, similar results.

You're not alone. Electric stuff, but his mechanics seemed strange to me.

SOXSINCE'70
08-28-2010, 03:56 PM
This is why you don't put people in the hall of fame before they throw a pitch, yes i'm looking at you ESPN

Don't forget the MLB network.They're just as guilty,IMO.

SOXSINCE'70
08-28-2010, 04:01 PM
It took Liriano 2 bad seasons to get back to being a good pitcher, and he still isn't even close to the pitcher he was in 2006 (though that may have been a fluke). There is no telling if he will have the same ability and potential he did before.


:tiphat:Thank you!!If the Nats try to rush him back,this is exactly what will occur.I say Strasburg will pitch again, but not until 2013,if the Nats are smart.

SOXSINCE'70
08-28-2010, 04:04 PM
Good read on his mechanics and the inverted W.

http://www.proballnw.com/03-2009/strasburg-drafting-bad-mechanics/


Thanks for posting. Very informative!

Pablo_Honey
08-28-2010, 04:15 PM
I wish that some people actually start researching on the effects of this so-called "inverted W" in terms of human biology. O'leary is all theory and no proof (Anecdotal evidences and a few correlations are all he's got). I think a clear case could be made for "inverted W" but right now, there is no definitive proof to support this theory.

SI1020
08-28-2010, 06:18 PM
I wish that some people actually start researching on the effects of this so-called "inverted W" in terms of human biology. O'leary is all theory and no proof (Anecdotal evidences and a few correlations are all he's got). I think a clear case could be made for "inverted W" but right now, there is no definitive proof to support this theory. Depending on how you define "proof" there may never be any. We live in an era of revisionism and deconstruction of just about everthing. Meaningful consensus on just about anything is a pipe dream these days. I will say that because of O'Leary I will be watching and paying attention more closely than ever as I continue to follow my favorite game. I believe that there are definable reasons for just about everything and I'd like to be able to more fully understand this unfortunate phenomenon in modern day baseball.

Pablo_Honey
08-28-2010, 08:33 PM
Depending on how you define "proof" there may never be any. We live in an era of revisionism and deconstruction of just about everthing. Meaningful consensus on just about anything is a pipe dream these days. I will say that because of O'Leary I will be watching and paying attention more closely than ever as I continue to follow my favorite game. I believe that there are definable reasons for just about everything and I'd like to be able to more fully understand this unfortunate phenomenon in modern day baseball.
I used to strongly believe in O'leary's theories, but he really hasn't presented anything new so I kinda shut him off for now. Now, I do think he's on to something in regards to inverted W, but I wish he would do more than just presenting cases of inverted W and saying "Oh look he got injured so it means inverted W caused it." Nowadays, I just ignore arm actions when it comes to delieveries because even a simple thing like scap loading has two very conflicting opinions on it. The only things I look for are lower half movements and finishes. Why it's detrimental to doing poorly on either one of these can be biologically explained. For example, recoiling: Your arm is following through at an extreme speed so it needs time to slow down. Recoil puts unnecessary extra strain on the arm by taking that time away. So yeah, just throwing in my two cents.

SI1020
08-28-2010, 09:26 PM
I used to strongly believe in O'leary's theories, but he really hasn't presented anything new so I kinda shut him off for now. Now, I do think he's on to something in regards to inverted W, but I wish he would do more than just presenting cases of inverted W and saying "Oh look he got injured so it means inverted W caused it." Nowadays, I just ignore arm actions when it comes to delieveries because even a simple thing like scap loading has two very conflicting opinions on it. The only things I look for are lower half movements and finishes. Why it's detrimental to doing poorly on either one of these can be biologically explained. For example, recoiling: Your arm is following through at an extreme speed so it needs time to slow down. Recoil puts unnecessary extra strain on the arm by taking that time away. So yeah, just throwing in my two cents. I think you make a good point, and I will be looking at this also. Perhaps, like in many other areas of life, a number of factors come into play here.

Daver
08-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough.

SI1020
08-28-2010, 10:46 PM
Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough. I remember when I was young and would get to the ball park early. You would often see infielders in a game of pepper (pepper what's that?) and pitchers doing wind sprints and long toss. I was at a Dodgers game earlier this year and for the first time in a long time saw a Dodgers player doing long toss in the outfield. I checked the program and it wasn't a pitcher.