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mzh
08-23-2010, 08:14 PM
Hopefully this will not degrade into the same Ozzie argument that comes up every other thread. This is a legit question for those calling for Ozzie's head: who replaces him? Whether you like it or not, or whether you like Ozzie's method's or not, Ozzie has a winning track record. After basically 50 years of inconsistency, Ozzie has put together a World Series, a division championship, and kept the sox in contention the majority of the time. As people who want Ozzie gone, who would you replace it with? Yes, the WS honeymoon is over, but he's still brought us more than Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont, or Tony La Russa ever could. And if anyone gives La Russa as an option, I think La Russa to the Sox in 2011 would be like Piniella to the Cubs in 07. Not a feasible option for more than 4 or 5 years.

It's Dankerific
08-23-2010, 08:19 PM
This Ozzie period has also been the first period of sustained decent budgets for the players. Many people could replace Ozzie and get the same level of production, especially for the years after 2005.

At least then we might have a shot in August and September.

TheCommander
08-23-2010, 08:30 PM
This Ozzie period has also been the first period of sustained decent budgets for the players. Many people could replace Ozzie and get the same level of production, especially for the years after 2005.

At least then we might have a shot in August and September.

You didn't answer the question.

It's Dankerific
08-23-2010, 08:40 PM
You didn't answer the question.

Anyone but Ozzie, prolly Cora too.

Noneck
08-23-2010, 08:41 PM
Piniella made close to 4m with the cubs, LaRussa makes over 4m with the cards. The Sox have never had a highly paid manager, if a change is made I doubt it would be a high profile manager.

ghostface36
08-23-2010, 08:52 PM
i wouldn't want anyone else to manage the white sox

Brian26
08-23-2010, 08:59 PM
Hopefully this will not degrade into the same Ozzie argument that comes up every other thread. This is a legit question for those calling for Ozzie's head: who replaces him? Whether you like it or not, or whether you like Ozzie's method's or not, Ozzie has a winning track record. After basically 50 years of inconsistency, Ozzie has put together a World Series, a division championship, and kept the sox in contention the majority of the time. As people who want Ozzie gone, who would you replace it with? Yes, the WS honeymoon is over, but he's still brought us more than Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont, or Tony La Russa ever could. And if anyone gives La Russa as an option, I think La Russa to the Sox in 2011 would be like Piniella to the Cubs in 07. Not a feasible option for more than 4 or 5 years.

Jeff Torborg.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2010, 08:59 PM
It will never happen but if I was the owner or GM of the Sox, Carlton Fisk would be my choice.

It's Dankerific
08-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Jeff Torborg.

if he's available, hell yes.

kaufsox
08-23-2010, 09:06 PM
Dear God, LaRussa would be the absolutely worst choice for White Sox.

A. Cavatica
08-23-2010, 09:07 PM
Name Nick Capra interim manager and conduct a search in the off-season.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2010, 09:11 PM
Dear God, LaRussa would be the absolutely worst choice for White Sox.

Why?

SCCWS
08-23-2010, 09:17 PM
if he's available, hell yes.


Great choice. Ozzie has had 2 seasons below 500. Torborg had only 2 out of 11 where his teams finished over .500. He never had a team win their division. He has a career .469 record. His teams usually were out of the race before August began.

Harry Chappas
08-23-2010, 09:30 PM
It will never happen but if I was the owner or GM of the Sox, Carlton Fisk would be my choice.

You're kidding, right? On what are you basing this decision? Is it his complete lack of experience or his abrasive personality?

cards press box
08-23-2010, 09:33 PM
Ozzie's career winning percentage is .528 which translates to around 86 wins a year. Terry Francona also has a .528 winning percentage and is tied with Ozzie for 73rd place among all managers. And to put this in context, there have been 668 managers in major league history. The Cubs' Mike Quade is, I suppose, the 669th manager.

AlexRios51
08-23-2010, 09:38 PM
It will never happen but if I was the owner or GM of the Sox, Carlton Fisk would be my choice.
I'd love for that to happen, hell I'd just love his presence around the park.

mzh
08-23-2010, 09:38 PM
Name Nick Capra interim manager and conduct a search in the off-season.
Still not answering the question. What happens if you end up like the Bears and the guy you fire is now the best option available?

Coops4Aces
08-23-2010, 09:40 PM
I want to fire this Ozzie. I want the old Ozzie back.

VMSNS
08-23-2010, 09:43 PM
I'll just float this name out there, because it always seemed like a good idea to me....

Steve Stone.

Brian26
08-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Great choice. Ozzie has had 2 seasons below 500. Torborg had only 2 out of 11 where his teams finished over .500. He never had a team win their division. He has a career .469 record. His teams usually were out of the race before August began.

Torborg was also saddled with some awful, awful teams. I'm not going to hold the '77-'79 Indians against him, and the '89 Sox were horrid except for the 2nd half. The Expos/Marlins debacle earlier this decade has been discussed, and the only reason Torborg was removed from the '03 Marlins is because he wouldn't let his hitting coach take the fall for the terrible start to the season.

Then again, maybe I wax too poetic about the '90 Sox like some Cub fans regard 1969.

Year Team G W L PCT RS RA START END STANDING
1977 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1977/Y_1977.htm) CLE A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1977/TCLE01977.htm) 104 45 59 .433 450 456 6-19 5 5
1978 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1978/Y_1978.htm) CLE A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1978/TCLE01978.htm) 159 69 90 .434 639 694 6
1979 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1979/Y_1979.htm) CLE A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1979/TCLE01979.htm) 95 43 52 .453 414 484 7-22 6 6
1989 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1989/Y_1989.htm) CHI A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1989/TCHA01989.htm) 161 69 92 .429 693 750 7
1990 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1990/Y_1990.htm) CHI A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1990/TCHA01990.htm) 162 94 68 .580 682 633 2
1991 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1991/Y_1991.htm) CHI A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1991/TCHA01991.htm) 162 87 75 .537 758 681 2
1992 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1992/Y_1992.htm) NY N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1992/TNYN01992.htm) 162 72 90 .444 599 653 5
1993 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1993/Y_1993.htm) NY N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1993/TNYN01993.htm) 38 13 25 .342 160 174 5-19 7 7
2001 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2001/Y_2001.htm) MON N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2001/TMON02001.htm) 109 47 62 .431 456 534 5-31 5 5
2002 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/Y_2002.htm) FLA N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/TFLO02002.htm) 162 79 83 .488 699 763 4
2003 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2003/Y_2003.htm) FLA N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2003/TFLO02003.htm) 38 16 22 .421 163 186 5-10 4 2
Total (11 Years) 1352 634 718 .469 5713 6008

Daver
08-23-2010, 09:48 PM
I'll just float this name out there, because it always seemed like a good idea to me....

Steve Stone.

Much like Fisk, he would never consider it.

My first choice would be Nick Leyva.

Dan H
08-23-2010, 10:15 PM
I don't have a replacement for Ozzie but I have this suggestion: He and Kenny Williams need to be on the same page. While these two guys don't have to like each other, they have to have some sort of meeting of the minds on what kind of team the franchise is going to field. If they can't get along professionally, one or both has to go.

This has not been a good year for Ozzie. There is no excuse for lashing out at fans or rehashing the Thome issue. It was bad enough to watch this team practically play itself out of contention in a two-week period without his unprofessional blow-ups. The team is bigger than he is. If he is fired, the team will go on, one way or another. It's time to get out of the sandbox and act like adult.

gogosox675
08-23-2010, 10:28 PM
If Ozzie had to go it would be awesome to have Torborg back.

A. Cavatica
08-23-2010, 11:01 PM
Still not answering the question. What happens if you end up like the Bears and the guy you fire is now the best option available?

There are a dozen guys on WSI who would be a better choice than Ozzie, so I'm not worried about that possibility.

FielderJones
08-23-2010, 11:06 PM
There are a dozen guys on WSI who would be a better choice than Ozzie, so I'm not worried about that possibility.

:rolling:

You guys are too much!

Lip Man 1
08-23-2010, 11:07 PM
Unfortunately Jeff Torborg (who is 69) wouldn't be available due to health issues. That's really all that I can say about it at this time.

When I told him after the Ozzie / Kenny blowups in June about some Sox fans wanting him back he laughed and said to thank everyone for remembering him.

I think he was touched by fans calling for him to return but it just can't happen now.

Lip

HarryChappas
08-23-2010, 11:11 PM
You're kidding, right? On what are you basing this decision? Is it his complete lack of experience or his abrasive personality?

Fisk is not a well liked man in the baseball or real world. He was a great player to watch, but pretty much a jerk. How about Walker?

kittle42
08-23-2010, 11:17 PM
Fisk is not a well liked man in the baseball or real world. He was a great player to watch, but pretty much a jerk. How about Walker?

When you fail at the job you already have, do you really deserve a promotion?

KingXerxes
08-23-2010, 11:27 PM
Dear God, LaRussa would be the absolutely worst choice for White Sox.

Are you kidding me? I would pay big bucks to watch new White Sox manager Tony LaRussa walk up to the broadcast booth prior to the first pitch on opening day, and knock Ken Harrelson on his keester with a left hook.

:hawk

"Mercy..........I'll bet Joe West told him to do that........"

doublem23
08-23-2010, 11:28 PM
Why?

They test for steriods nowadays.

PeteWard
08-23-2010, 11:46 PM
Ozzie should get one more year to get a division title---heck he could still get one this year--and if he does not, then maybe the Sox should look elsewhere.

soxfanreggie
08-24-2010, 12:11 AM
Dear God, LaRussa would be the absolutely worst choice for White Sox.

*Ahem* I think Terry Bevington would like to have a talk with you.

Nellie_Fox
08-24-2010, 12:41 AM
Anyone but Ozzie, prolly Cora too.:rolleyes:

There are a dozen guys on WSI who would be a better choice than Ozzie, so I'm not worried about that possibility.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It's Dankerific
08-24-2010, 02:36 AM
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lets just keep the status quo! Its soooo fun!

Rikirk
08-24-2010, 05:13 AM
If Oz gets launched...
whos available to replace him?

PeteWard
08-24-2010, 07:25 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lets just keep the status quo! Its soooo fun!

The staus quo before Ozzie came was no pennant for 46 years and no WS championship for 88.

He also did a great job in 2008.

Frontman
08-24-2010, 07:28 AM
It will never happen but if I was the owner or GM of the Sox, Carlton Fisk would be my choice.

So you'd rather have a person who never coached or manage handling your team; versus someone like *shudder* LaRussa?

LITTLE NELL
08-24-2010, 07:29 AM
You're kidding, right? On what are you basing this decision? Is it his complete lack of experience or his abrasive personality?

I think he would make a great manager especially handling the pitchers, he a no-nonsense guy. The reason I said it would not happen is because of his past friction with the front office.
I think catchers make great managers, the best Sox manager was a catcher; Al Lopez. Torborg was pretty good. Girardi is winning with the Yankees. Mike Scioscia with the Angels is very good.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2010, 07:45 AM
This is an irrelevant question. But, presented with the choice, Alan Trammell, Dave Martinez, or Ted Simmons would please me.

delben91
08-24-2010, 07:46 AM
I think he would make a great manager especially handling the pitchers, he a no-nonsense guy. The reason I said it would not happen is because of his past friction with the front office.
I think catchers make great managers, the best Sox manager was a catcher; Al Lopez. Torborg was pretty good. Girardi is winning with the Yankees. Mike Scioscia with the Angels is very good.

And let's not forget about AJ Hinch's masterful job...

Madvora
08-24-2010, 08:40 AM
If Ozzie had to go it would be awesome to have Torborg back.
I'd like to have Torborg in the booth.

Nellie_Fox
08-24-2010, 11:28 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lets just keep the status quo! Its soooo fun!The status quo isn't as bad as you make it out to be. The Sox aren't going to be the Yankees no matter how much you wish it so. And it's really all about BA with you, so I don't take your Ozzie concerns seriously at all.

But of course, you changed the subject. My eye rolling was at the statements that "anybody" would be better, or that we have a dozen posters on WSI who would be better, and that's just nonsense.

Coops4Aces
08-24-2010, 11:28 AM
If not Ozzie, how about Sandy Alomar Jr?

TomBradley72
08-24-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm not sure who would replace him, I've been an OG fan for most of his tenure...but blasting the players and pouting in the dugout in KC was bush league...he may have lost the team...and deservedly so. This is a flawed roster, but these guys have busted their tails, the last thing they needed Sunday was the manager pointing the finger in their direction.

The major flaw on this team is the DH role, Ozzie owns that.

The other flaw is pitching depth...no one down on the farm to help...KW owns that.

If we had injuries like the Twins....we wouldn't be anywhere near .500

1989
08-24-2010, 01:07 PM
Fredi Gonzalez or Bobby Valentine

FielderJones
08-24-2010, 01:14 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lets just keep the status quo! Its soooo fun!

Here's an idea I'm sure you'll like. Hire the next White Sox manager and GM to one year contracts. If they win the World Series, they each get another one year contract. If they lose the World Series or don't even make the postseason, they're fired. That way there is total accountability.

ghostface36
08-24-2010, 01:15 PM
i think its ridiculous to even consider firing ozzie and i look at baseball from the sabermetric and personal side
i dont think there is a better manager for our team

Coops4Aces
08-24-2010, 01:19 PM
i think its ridiculous to even consider firing ozzie and i look at baseball from the sabermetric and personal side
i dont think there is a better manager for our team

Not at all given his antics off the field. Way to much drama stirred up this season with Oney and Ozzie Jr.

Like I said, I wish he could go back to the '04/'05 Ozzie.

FielderJones
08-24-2010, 01:19 PM
i think its ridiculous to even consider firing ozzie and i look at baseball from the sabermetric and personal side
i dont think there is a better manager for our team

Agreed. There's a bizarre, extreme cultural current these days for accountability and consequences. Even when results are not completely under one's control, oh well.

dickallen15
08-24-2010, 01:29 PM
Hopefully this will not degrade into the same Ozzie argument that comes up every other thread. This is a legit question for those calling for Ozzie's head: who replaces him? Whether you like it or not, or whether you like Ozzie's method's or not, Ozzie has a winning track record. After basically 50 years of inconsistency, Ozzie has put together a World Series, a division championship, and kept the sox in contention the majority of the time. As people who want Ozzie gone, who would you replace it with? Yes, the WS honeymoon is over, but he's still brought us more than Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont, or Tony La Russa ever could. And if anyone gives La Russa as an option, I think La Russa to the Sox in 2011 would be like Piniella to the Cubs in 07. Not a feasible option for more than 4 or 5 years.


You do realize Gene Lamont has a better winning pct. as the White Sox manager than Ozzie Guillen don't you, or do you subscribe to Oney Guillen's rants that say the White Sox were and will be garbage without Ozzie.

russ99
08-24-2010, 01:29 PM
Not at all given his antics off the field. Way to much drama stirred up this season with Oney and Ozzie Jr.

Like I said, I wish he could go back to the '04/'05 Ozzie.

That's my issue. Everyone wants Ozzie gone for off-the-field reasons, which are overblown and broadcast loudly to sell newspapers.

04-05 Ozzie and 10 Ozzie are the same manager, but every little thing he says is broadcast to the masses as a huge controversy.

He's still one of the best managers in the AL, and a no-brainer for next season, especially considering how much Jerry wants him here.

Can't wait for all the wringing of hands and pulling of hair around here when Ozzie gets his extension... :tongue:

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2010, 01:40 PM
Ozzie's wisdom, in practice! (http://soxmachine.com/2010/08/24/white-sox-running-bases-backwards/) There is a wonderful tidbit in there that mentions the averages in 2010 for the White Sox in going from first-to-third, and second-to-home. They are essentially the same averages the White Sox posted in the previous nine seasons. Ozzieball!

It's Dankerific
08-24-2010, 01:41 PM
Here's an idea I'm sure you'll like. Hire the next White Sox manager and GM to one year contracts. If they win the World Series, they each get another one year contract. If they lose the World Series or don't even make the postseason, they're fired. That way there is total accountability.

How about 5 years? thats how long we've been spinning since the WS.

But, I know, I know. He has a lifetime pass. At least some people admit thats all that matters to them.

Coops4Aces
08-24-2010, 01:47 PM
Ozzie's wisdom, in practice! (http://soxmachine.com/2010/08/24/white-sox-running-bases-backwards/) There is a wonderful tidbit in there that mentions the averages in 2010 for the White Sox in going from first-to-third, and second-to-home. They are essentially the same averages the White Sox posted in the previous nine seasons. Ozzieball!

That might be the greatest article I've ever read. For the love of God, stop bunting.

It's Dankerific
08-24-2010, 01:53 PM
The status quo isn't as bad as you make it out to be. The Sox aren't going to be the Yankees no matter how much you wish it so. And it's really all about BA with you, so I don't take your Ozzie concerns seriously at all.

But of course, you changed the subject. My eye rolling was at the statements that "anybody" would be better, or that we have a dozen posters on WSI who would be better, and that's just nonsense.

You're right. I'd be totally fine with us not making the post season and losing every August if Ozzie would have treated BA like a human being.

ghostface36
08-24-2010, 02:28 PM
i think they should fire greg walker
but seriously for the fire ozzie folks, who would you like to replace him?

Coops4Aces
08-24-2010, 02:30 PM
i think they should fire greg walker
but seriously for the fire ozzie folks, who would you like to replace him?

Have you not read the thread? :scratch:

ghostface36
08-24-2010, 02:39 PM
Have you not read the thread? :scratch:
i have i just dont think those are viable options that would make our team better right now or in the next few years.
isn't valentine managing in Japan? has sandy alomar jr ever managed a team?

Coops4Aces
08-24-2010, 02:42 PM
i have i just dont think those are viable options that would make our team better right now or in the next few years.
isn't valentine managing in Japan? has sandy alomar jr ever managed a team?
No and no. But Ozzie had never managed either.

ghostface36
08-24-2010, 02:46 PM
No and no. But Ozzie had never managed either.
Yes im aware but he wasn't put into a 'win now' situation like the sox will be in for the next two years. Yes ozzie isn't the greatest manager but I dont think anyone on the market could come in and do a better job with this team now

mzh
08-24-2010, 02:47 PM
This is an irrelevant question. But, presented with the choice, Alan Trammell, Dave Martinez, or Ted Simmons would please me.
Why is it irrelevant? People have been calling for Ozzie's head, and I asked who would they have replace him. There are 15 people posting with a "FIRE OZZIE" sig, it seems quite relevant.

SSrep
08-24-2010, 02:58 PM
Fisk is not a well liked man in the baseball or real world. He was a great player to watch, but pretty much a jerk. How about Walker?

No on Walker, but right on with everything else. Fisk is an *******.

ghostface36
08-24-2010, 02:59 PM
Why is it irrelevant?
b/c ozzie is gonna have the job as long as he wants it, jerry wont fire him unless they win like 60 games next year

Tragg
08-24-2010, 03:25 PM
You do realize Gene Lamont has a better winning pct. as the White Sox manager than Ozzie Guillen don't you, or do you subscribe to Oney Guillen's rants that say the White Sox were and will be garbage without Ozzie.
Gene Lamont managed better players for the most part; although Ozzie has a hand in his lesser talent too.
If Ozzie would manage the team, and the GM handle personnel....

markopat
08-24-2010, 03:48 PM
i think its ridiculous to even consider firing ozzie and i look at baseball from the sabermetric and personal side
i dont think there is a better manager for our team

I agree 100%!!

mcsoxfan
08-25-2010, 12:26 AM
Piniella made close to 4m with the cubs, LaRussa makes over 4m with the cards. The Sox have never had a highly paid manager, if a change is made I doubt it would be a high profile manager.


Joe Torre would bring class and respect.

mcsoxfan
08-25-2010, 12:30 AM
if he's available, hell yes.

Reinsdorf believes the biggest mistake he's made was letting Hawk fire Tony La Russa. I think Tony played himself out here. I doubt he would come back. And choosing Krause over Phil and Michael is far and away the worst executive decision made by Reinsdorf. Hijacking the Sox and threatening to move them to Florida is a close second.

mcsoxfan
08-25-2010, 12:35 AM
I'll just float this name out there, because it always seemed like a good idea to me....

Steve Stone.

If I owned the Sox, I would hire Stone as the executive VP giving him carte blanche on all matters baseball.

kaufsox
08-25-2010, 12:47 PM
You're right. I'd be totally fine with us not making the post season and losing every August if Ozzie would have treated BA like a human being.

When did ever treat BA as subhuman? Did he beat the guy? Oh wait, he gave him over 400 at bats and decided he wasn't that good. Damn Ozzie is cruel.

Frontman
08-25-2010, 03:27 PM
When did ever treat BA as subhuman? Did he beat the guy? Oh wait, he gave him over 400 at bats and decided he wasn't that good. Damn Ozzie is cruel.

BA was the one acting like a sub-human. When its more about the TnA and booze than it is about baseball; you don't get treated like a professional.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2010, 04:06 PM
BA was the one acting like a sub-human. When its more about the TnA and booze than it is about baseball; you don't get treated like a professional.
We can play the poor character game all day. BA was a party guy. I don't care. There are numerous folks in the organization (Ozzie most of all) who have no business giving advice about how to live a saintly life.

Frontman
08-25-2010, 06:09 PM
We can play the poor character game all day. BA was a party guy. I don't care. There are numerous folks in the organization (Ozzie most of all) who have no business giving advice about how to live a saintly life.

When your "party guy" shows up to work in a state of "unable to do his job effectively" it IS the business of the manager to sit him down.

It's Dankerific
08-25-2010, 06:50 PM
When your "party guy" shows up to work in a state of "unable to do his job effectively" it IS the business of the manager to sit him down.

effectiveness doesnt seem to be a criteria for Ozzie managing...

mzh
08-25-2010, 06:56 PM
effectiveness doesnt seem to be a criteria for Ozzie managing...
Brian Anderson sucked, therefore he didn't play. Get over it.

It's Dankerific
08-25-2010, 07:03 PM
Brian Anderson sucked, therefore he didn't play. Get over it.

if only managers were held to a similar standard. right?

mzh
08-25-2010, 07:19 PM
if only managers were held to a similar standard. right?
:rolleyes: Yep, 5 Winning seasons out of 7 and a World Series is definitely the managerial equivalent of a .230 hitter.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2010, 07:38 PM
I'm just waiting for an Ozzie-backer to address the notion that this team is advancing from first-to-third and second-to-home at almost exactly the same rate they have the previous nine seasons. Someone, please.

It's Dankerific
08-25-2010, 07:52 PM
:rolleyes: Yep, 5 Winning seasons out of 7 and a World Series is definitely the managerial equivalent of a .230 hitter.

2 playoff appearances in a WEAK division where we have the most money.

SCCWS
08-25-2010, 08:09 PM
Torborg was also saddled with some awful, awful teams. I'm not going to hold the '77-'79 Indians against him, and the '89 Sox were horrid except for the 2nd half. The Expos/Marlins debacle earlier this decade has been discussed, and the only reason Torborg was removed from the '03 Marlins is because he wouldn't let his hitting coach take the fall for the terrible start to the season.

Then again, maybe I wax too poetic about the '90 Sox like some Cub fans regard 1969.

Year Team G W L PCT RS RA START END STANDING
1977 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1977/Y_1977.htm) CLE A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1977/TCLE01977.htm) 104 45 59 .433 450 456 6-19 5 5
1978 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1978/Y_1978.htm) CLE A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1978/TCLE01978.htm) 159 69 90 .434 639 694 6
1979 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1979/Y_1979.htm) CLE A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1979/TCLE01979.htm) 95 43 52 .453 414 484 7-22 6 6
1989 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1989/Y_1989.htm) CHI A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1989/TCHA01989.htm) 161 69 92 .429 693 750 7
1990 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1990/Y_1990.htm) CHI A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1990/TCHA01990.htm) 162 94 68 .580 682 633 2
1991 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1991/Y_1991.htm) CHI A (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1991/TCHA01991.htm) 162 87 75 .537 758 681 2
1992 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1992/Y_1992.htm) NY N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1992/TNYN01992.htm) 162 72 90 .444 599 653 5
1993 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1993/Y_1993.htm) NY N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1993/TNYN01993.htm) 38 13 25 .342 160 174 5-19 7 7
2001 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2001/Y_2001.htm) MON N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2001/TMON02001.htm) 109 47 62 .431 456 534 5-31 5 5
2002 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/Y_2002.htm) FLA N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/TFLO02002.htm) 162 79 83 .488 699 763 4
2003 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2003/Y_2003.htm) FLA N (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2003/TFLO02003.htm) 38 16 22 .421 163 186 5-10 4 2
Total (11 Years) 1352 634 718 .469 5713 6008

Brian: That is not true. He was a very good manager w the White Sox for 2 seasons. He was lousy everywhere else. But you say he had lousy teams. Every year he left a team they radically improved the next season----1980 Indians, 1994 Mets, 2002 Montreal and Florida fired him when the team had a .421 after 38 games. They finished the year over .560

Brian26
08-25-2010, 08:13 PM
2 playoff appearances in a WEAK division where we have the most money.

I'm not by any means making excuses, but Ozzie is 2-for-6 so far, and it's really, really difficult to count 2004 and 2007 against him when the team was devastated by injuries during those years. If Frank and Mags don't go down in 2004, the Sox would have given the Twins a better fight.

Frontman
08-25-2010, 08:55 PM
I'm just waiting for an Ozzie-backer to address the notion that this team is advancing from first-to-third and second-to-home at almost exactly the same rate they have the previous nine seasons. Someone, please.

Ok, they are. Your point?

Frontman
08-25-2010, 08:57 PM
2 playoff appearances in a WEAK division where we have the most money.

Yes, since Money won championships for the Yankees every year.....wait.

Oops.

Hang your hat that the Sox have a bigger payroll all you want. The Cubs have an INCREDIBLY large payroll, where are they at right now?

All the naysayers never want to accept that it isn't just what Ozzie/Kenny do or don't do. It's what all of the teams in the division and what they do COMPARED to what the White Sox do that determines who wins the division after game 162.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2010, 09:04 PM
Ok, they are. Your point?
That all of this business about team speed is a bunch of hot air. This team has always been, and will always be driven by its ability to get on base and hit home runs, not by "going from first to third" or "scoring from second on a single."

It's Dankerific
08-25-2010, 09:25 PM
Yes, since Money won championships for the Yankees every year.....wait.

Oops.

Hang your hat that the Sox have a bigger payroll all you want. The Cubs have an INCREDIBLY large payroll, where are they at right now?

All the naysayers never want to accept that it isn't just what Ozzie/Kenny do or don't do. It's what all of the teams in the division and what they do COMPARED to what the White Sox do that determines who wins the division after game 162.

You are right Frontman, The Red Sox and Yankees are in the playoffs as rarely as the White Sox.

:rolleyes:

DirtySox
08-25-2010, 09:26 PM
Ok, they are. Your point?

Probably that all the base-clogging garbage that people spew is incorrect and foolish.

Sunnydre
08-25-2010, 09:34 PM
Ozzie gets one more year.

In June, I would have been happy if we finished 81-81. The fact that we are still "in it" with 40 games to go, is more than I could ever have hoped for.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2010, 10:02 PM
That all of this business about team speed is a bunch of hot air. This team has always been, and will always be driven by its ability to get on base and hit home runs, not by "going from first to third" or "scoring from second on a single."

I mostly agree. Team speed isn't significantly improved over last year. Pierre is only marginally faster than Pods, and as the article you linked demonstrates, Pierre's speed is often wasted by the sac bunt. Rios is the only other player with double-digit steals. Jones, who doesn't play much and has a bad OBP (mostly due to his poor average), is third on the team with 9. The other guys on the team with decent speed: Beckham, Alexei and Vizquel, get caught a lot, and Lillibridge doesn't play much.

Refusing to sign Thome (.269/.396/.583) in order to keep Kotsay (.233/.307/.382/1 steal/3 caught stealing) didn't really improve team speed, but it did significantly reduce team power, OBP and runs scored.

The offense would be so much better with a Thome/Jones DH platoon.

v. RHP: Pierre, Vizquel, Rios, PK, TCQ RF, Thome DH, Alexei, AJ, Bacon
v. LHP: Pierre, Vizquel, Rios, PK, TCQ DH, Jones RF, Alexei, Castro, Bacon

Dan H
08-25-2010, 10:55 PM
Ozzie gets one more year.

In June, I would have been happy if we finished 81-81. The fact that we are still "in it" with 40 games to go, is more than I could ever have hoped for.

I don't want to give Ozzie one more day. It is obvious from the Soap Opera, that he and Williams are having no meeting of the minds. The animosity is being created by Ozzie. Forget '05. It's history. Time to make a change.

Tragg
08-25-2010, 11:00 PM
They've got to do something. Get some new coaches in here and for goodness sakes keep Guillen away from personnel decisions. Worry less about making sure that players show Ozzie the proper respect, and worry more about their baseball skill.

Nelfox02
08-25-2010, 11:11 PM
while I dont disagree that a change would be refreshing.......I dont see it happening.

I wonder what the actual situation is between Guillen and KW, is the media making it seem a lot more negative than it actually is? Or, could it be worse than what we hear about? that is about the only thing I could see causing a change, and it could very well be Kenny gone, and not ozzie........

Sunnydre
08-25-2010, 11:14 PM
I don't care if Kenny leaves, as long as they bring in another GM who is a "buyer" at the trading deadline every year.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2010, 11:22 PM
I don't care if Kenny leaves, as long as they bring in another GM who is a "buyer" at the trading deadline every year.
Yes, what a healthy franchise we've got going forward. Great mentality.

A. Cavatica
08-25-2010, 11:24 PM
It would be refreshing if those of you on the Fire Ozzie bandwagon would update your sigs.

Sunnydre
08-25-2010, 11:36 PM
Yes, what a healthy franchise we've got going forward. Great mentality.

Excatly.

A winning one.

Frontman
08-26-2010, 12:03 AM
They've got to do something. Get some new coaches in here and for goodness sakes keep Guillen away from personnel decisions. Worry less about making sure that players show Ozzie the proper respect, and worry more about their baseball skill.

It should be Kenny who goes. Kenny is the one who is not with the team; who is not making decisions that need to be made.

If he felt this team needed a bat back in January, IT's HIS JOB to do so. If Ozzie didn't like it? He could quit or manage; period.

A true leader would listen to what his subordinate wants; take it into consideration, and still makes the smart decision for the team.

This year; as much as this is the team Ozzie "wanted;" I still put it on Kenny "Never met a nightclub I didn't like now that I'm single" Williams.

I give all of them one more year; and then get rid of them. But Ozzie is the one leading the team; Kenny is the one who isn't present and not taking an active role in improving this club.

Frontman
08-26-2010, 12:07 AM
You are right Frontman, The Red Sox and Yankees are in the playoffs as rarely as the White Sox.

:rolleyes:

Well, clearly its all about money. Spend enough; and you're supposed to win the division if you spend more than the other teams.

Wait, money doesn't determine championships. Winning play determines championships. There is enough blame to go around about that, from the players all the way up to Kenny Williams; but considering this fanbase still thinks Outfielder Brian Anderson (who last I checked no longer played the outfield) was the next Willie Mays, even after he departed this team years ago?

I highly doubt people who are so entrenched into their points of view will ever accept this just isn't Ozzie Guillen's mess. It's a whole dang lot of them; but I put it first on Kenny.

mcfish
08-26-2010, 02:13 AM
Everyone stopped caring about the original question long ago, but here goes...

Many of us believe that Ozzie is not doing a good enough job as manager, and that his presence does not make the team better, or it actually makes the team worse. We would like to see him replaced. The specifics of why are all over this board.

None of us are MLB GM's, nor will we be on the search team if the time comes. Most of us are not in a position to have great knowledge of up and coming coaching options out there. Luckily, that's not our job.

I would like to see Ozzie replaced, and I have no idea who to replace him with. I would hope that decision would be made by someone that is qualified to make it. I don't think that it should be a requirement that I pull a random name out of a hat in order to think that Ozzie is not fulfilling the requirements of his position. One has no bearing on the other. Just because there aren't any no-brainer can't miss big names out there, that doesn't mean that Ozzie gets extra points on his review and all of a sudden he's good enough now.

I don't care if any of you want to keep Ozzie forever, but I hope the reason isn't simply because you personally can't come up a suitable name for potential replacement.


P.S. I think Kenny should be replaced too, but I don't know who to replace him with either.

mcfish
08-26-2010, 02:28 AM
2 playoff appearances in a WEAK division where we have the most money.Yes, since Money won championships for the Yankees every year.....wait.

Oops.

Hang your hat that the Sox have a bigger payroll all you want. The Cubs have an INCREDIBLY large payroll, where are they at right now?

All the naysayers never want to accept that it isn't just what Ozzie/Kenny do or don't do. It's what all of the teams in the division and what they do COMPARED to what the White Sox do that determines who wins the division after game 162.You twisted the post you quoted so much.

He said he thinks the Sox should win the division more often with the resources they have available to them compared to the the opposition. To that you said that the Yankees don't win Championships every year. But they do win the division and go to the playoffs most years. Which is what he was arguing for in the first place.

Do you not believe that the Sox, with the resources they have available to them, could/should be the dominant team in the division instead of the Twins?


As for the Cubs: first, the Cardinals don't exactly spend Marlins money. Second, that's an example of what not to do. There is one example of a team spending the most and doing poorly; in general the opposite is true.

It's Dankerific
08-26-2010, 03:33 AM
You twisted the post you quoted so much.

He said he thinks the Sox should win the division more often with the resources they have available to them compared to the the opposition. To that you said that the Yankees don't win Championships every year. But they do win the division and go to the playoffs most years. Which is what he was arguing for in the first place.

Do you not believe that the Sox, with the resources they have available to them, could/should be the dominant team in the division instead of the Twins?


As for the Cubs: first, the Cardinals don't exactly spend Marlins money. Second, that's an example of what not to do. There is one example of a team spending the most and doing poorly; in general the opposite is true.

thanks for saving me the typing, mcfish.

ZombieRob
08-26-2010, 04:05 AM
If it comes down to a choice, Kenny is more important to this team than Ozzie. Ozzie needs to grow the **** up. His act isn't cute anymore. Like Mac pointed out, he's become a Ditka clone. He thinks he's more important than the team. And that bull**** he says it to get the attention off the team is getting as old as "coop can fix em" crap. IMO he is using Oney to relay his msg to the public. Think about this. Would you let your son jeopardize your place of employment?

Frontman
08-26-2010, 08:16 AM
You twisted the post you quoted so much.

He said he thinks the Sox should win the division more often with the resources they have available to them compared to the the opposition. To that you said that the Yankees don't win Championships every year. But they do win the division and go to the playoffs most years. Which is what he was arguing for in the first place.

Do you not believe that the Sox, with the resources they have available to them, could/should be the dominant team in the division instead of the Twins?


As for the Cubs: first, the Cardinals don't exactly spend Marlins money. Second, that's an example of what not to do. There is one example of a team spending the most and doing poorly; in general the opposite is true.

Then it doesn't matter if the Sox are the more financial secure team, doesn't it? It's about the play on the field, isn't it?

Just because the Sox have more resources; its what is done with the resources that makes the team better. As its the front office's job to spend the money properly; I would like to see them held more accountable than Ozzie. Ozzie can swear all he wants; its Kenny who signs the checks. Get the team that is needed; period. Stop worrying about Ozzie's mouth in the press and do what you think is best.

It's all moot anyways. Personally, I give Kenny and Ozzie one more year to make the playoffs. After that? Who knows.

mcfish
08-26-2010, 09:48 AM
Then it doesn't matter if the Sox are the more financial secure team, doesn't it? It's about the play on the field, isn't it?

Just because the Sox have more resources; its what is done with the resources that makes the team better. As its the front office's job to spend the money properly; I would like to see them held more accountable than Ozzie. Ozzie can swear all he wants; its Kenny who signs the checks. Get the team that is needed; period. Stop worrying about Ozzie's mouth in the press and do what you think is best.

It's all moot anyways. Personally, I give Kenny and Ozzie one more year to make the playoffs. After that? Who knows.
Are you trying to argue that the differences in money between teams doesn't matter in baseball?

I agree with you that Kenny isn't doing a good job. However, that's not an argument for whether or not Ozzie is. Ozzie has what he has and I don't think he does a good job with it. Is your only argument for keeping Ozzie simply that Kenny sucks?

russ99
08-26-2010, 12:44 PM
Yes, what a healthy franchise we've got going forward. Great mentality.

I guess having a healthy franchise and lots of prospects is preferable to a winning team.

russ99
08-26-2010, 12:45 PM
If it comes down to a choice, Kenny is more important to this team than Ozzie. Ozzie needs to grow the **** up. His act isn't cute anymore. Like Mac pointed out, he's become a Ditka clone. He thinks he's more important than the team. And that bull**** he says it to get the attention off the team is getting as old as "coop can fix em" crap. IMO he is using Oney to relay his msg to the public. Think about this. Would you let your son jeopardize your place of employment?

Who cares about his antics as long as he can manage....

doublem23
08-26-2010, 12:46 PM
Yes, what a healthy franchise we've got going forward. Great mentality.

1 or 2 handy moves next year and the Sox are easily a Top 10 MLB team next year.

:shrug:

doublem23
08-26-2010, 12:46 PM
Who cares about his antics as long as he can manage....

Everyone loves his antics while he was winning. His team is the middle of another August swoon, so yeah, it gets old.

russ99
08-26-2010, 12:50 PM
Everyone loves his antics while he was winning. His team is the middle of another August swoon, so yeah, it gets old.

This team is still 10 games over .500 and in the race.

Get a grip people, all teams go through slumps.

I guess Ozzie's responsible for them not playing .800 ball the rest of the way.

DirtySox
08-26-2010, 01:08 PM
Interesting article about Kenny and Ozzie regarding the future.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=403493

Coops4Aces
08-26-2010, 01:17 PM
This team is still 10 games over .500 and in the race.

Get a grip people, all teams go through slumps.

I guess Ozzie's responsible for them not playing .800 ball the rest of the way.

For someone who acts like a clown to take pressure of his players, they certainly fall apart in crunch time. His teams are under 500 in August and September.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2010, 01:24 PM
Interesting story by Rozner. Apparently JR's warnings / comments that he made in June may have only helped ease things a little bit based on the comments from Ozzie and Kenny.

Lip

doublem23
08-26-2010, 01:26 PM
This team is still 10 games over .500 and in the race.

Get a grip people, all teams go through slumps.

I guess Ozzie's responsible for them not playing .800 ball the rest of the way.

The "grip" is that the Sox have lost 7 games in the standings to the Twins since the All-Star Break and are 10-13 in August, the 2nd worst record in the American League in that time.

Keep pretending like everything's OK, though.

doublem23
08-26-2010, 01:29 PM
For someone who acts like a clown to take pressure of his players, they certainly fall apart in crunch time. His teams are under 500 in August and September.

FWIW, Ozzie has a winning record in September, but not since 2005.

Craig Grebeck
08-26-2010, 01:40 PM
1 or 2 handy moves next year and the Sox are easily a Top 10 MLB team next year.

:shrug:
I'm just not a believer in the financial stability of this franchise going forward. There aren't enough pieces on the farm to secure the talent needed to win, in my opinion.

khan
08-26-2010, 02:01 PM
I guess having a healthy franchise and lots of prospects is preferable to a winning team.
Look, I know you've GOT TO defend the front office and ozzie at each and every turn. Hell, even Ranger's more critical than you. But, having "a healthy franchise" and having a "winning team" are not mutually exclusive things. PLENTY of MLB teams have both, and are able to do a lot more things than KW is able to do in trade and FA.


[By the way, the SOX are not a "winning team" v. the Big Boy AL, nor a "winning team" v. the middling ALC. It was only the FREE WINS v. the little boy nl that creates the illusion of the 2010 SOX being a "winning team."]


I'm just not a believer in the financial stability of this franchise going forward. There aren't enough pieces on the farm to secure the talent needed to win, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, I agree. There have been concomitant squandering of resources and an undercommitment to scouting, drafting, developing, and RETAINING a few quality youngsters to remain competitive year after year.

Unless JR opens the checkbook, it could be a lean few years coming up...

34 Inch Stick
08-26-2010, 02:18 PM
Everyone loves his antics while he was winning. His team is the middle of another August swoon, so yeah, it gets old.

I've hated his antics all along. If I remember correctly his teammates hated his antics when he was a player. Ozzie amuses Ozzie.

The Immigrant
08-26-2010, 02:22 PM
The Rozner piece was a depressing read. This is not a healthy environment and something needs to change.

Coops4Aces
08-26-2010, 02:24 PM
Everyone loves his antics while he was winning. His team is the middle of another August swoon, so yeah, it gets old.
I think it was more like everyone tolerated his antics.

doublem23
08-26-2010, 02:42 PM
I'm just not a believer in the financial stability of this franchise going forward. There aren't enough pieces on the farm to secure the talent needed to win, in my opinion.

As the leaked documents on Deadspin are proving, worrying about the stability of a major league franchise's money is like worrying that the sun is going to run out of hydrogen.

doublem23
08-26-2010, 02:42 PM
I think it was more like everyone tolerated his antics.

You obviously remember 2005 differently than me.

Nellie_Fox
08-26-2010, 02:44 PM
You obviously remember 2005 differently than me.
Revisionist history is nothing new around here doub.

Coops4Aces
08-26-2010, 02:57 PM
You obviously remember 2005 differently than me.

Revisionist history is nothing new around here doub.

In 2008, I can think of one word in particular that he called Mariotti that pissed off a ton of people. We were in 1st place when he said it too.

I guess I have to remember stuff from '05 though, so give me a minute to see if I can remember anything. :rolleyes:

SI1020
08-26-2010, 03:01 PM
In 2008, I can think of one word in particular that he called Mariotti that pissed off a ton of people. We were in 1st place when he said it too.

I guess I have to remember stuff from '05 though, so give me a minute to see if I can remember anything. :rolleyes: The Mariotti incident was in 2006. I'm going to play amateur psychologist here (I know we have at least one professional on this site) and say this episode had a very negative effect on Ozzie.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491

khan
08-26-2010, 03:01 PM
As the leaked documents on Deadspin are proving, worrying about the stability of a major league franchise's money is like worrying that the sun is going to run out of hydrogen.

Different organizations have different operating models.

I'm guessing that the SOX haven't been a recipient of luxury taxes, so I don't know that the Deadspin documents are really all that applicable to how the SOX are run.

SI1020
08-26-2010, 03:12 PM
Everyone loves his antics while he was winning. His team is the middle of another August swoon, so yeah, it gets old. I have never particularly cared for them. I admire professional franchises that stress a low drama approach. It's getting rarer because of the in your face culture of today's world.

doublem23
08-26-2010, 04:00 PM
In 2008, I can think of one word in particular that he called Mariotti that pissed off a ton of people. We were in 1st place when he said it too.

I guess I have to remember stuff from '05 though, so give me a minute to see if I can remember anything. :rolleyes:

I'm just saying in '05 the whole Ozzieball and Ozzie infatuation were at their apex, undoubtedly because the Sox were the best team in baseball.

There was no Oney, though, so that may have a big influence, too. Just getting rid of his stupid kid would be huge.

kufram
08-26-2010, 04:28 PM
The Mariotti incident was in 2006. I'm going to play amateur psychologist here (I know we have at least one professional on this site) and say this episode had a very negative effect on Ozzie.


There was no excuse for Ozzie on that one word. I do remember that Mariotti totally disappeared after the incident. Suddenly he was gone from Around the Horn... no columns. Ozzie didn't... he did what he had to do. I actually wrote Mariotti an email (don't remember if I sent it) after he declared on TV that the White Sox wouldn't win the World Series because they weren't even going to win their division. He was really gloating. It made me really mad and I said it made me want them to win it even more just so he could enjoy the victory parade.

One thing though... about Ozzie getting rid of his "stupid" kid. He'll never do that, to his credit. Neither should any dad. Ever.

There were a few dark and worrying days in 2005 and we led from start to finish. Does that mean this team can win the WS in 2010? Don't know about that but I'd really love to see them win 6-8 games in a row and then everything would suddenly change. Will it happen? Don't know. CAN it happen. Yes. I'll enjoy it until it can't happen. We're still playing games that matter. Quite a few teams are not.

Frontman
08-26-2010, 06:29 PM
Are you trying to argue that the differences in money between teams doesn't matter in baseball?

I agree with you that Kenny isn't doing a good job. However, that's not an argument for whether or not Ozzie is. Ozzie has what he has and I don't think he does a good job with it. Is your only argument for keeping Ozzie simply that Kenny sucks?

I'm arguing spending more isn't the important part; I'm arguing that spending SMART is the important part. Kow towing to Ozzie isn't smart if your his boss. Kenny had the final say on this team. Ozzie might of wanted grinders/small ball; but Kenny could of said no.

Frater Perdurabo
08-26-2010, 08:46 PM
I'm arguing spending more isn't the important part; I'm arguing that spending SMART is the important part. Kow towing to Ozzie isn't smart if your his boss. Kenny had the final say on this team. Ozzie might of wanted grinders/small ball; but Kenny could of said no.

Apart from the DH situation, I have no problem with the construction of this team. In hindsight, the Teahen deal was a waste, but I don't think anyone would have been OK with Vizquel as the opening day starter at 3B.

The only big problem with this team going into the season was the DH situation. I think Ozzie pressured KW into keeping Kotsay and not signing Thome.

mcfish
08-27-2010, 12:50 AM
I'm arguing spending more isn't the important part; I'm arguing that spending SMART is the important part. Kow towing to Ozzie isn't smart if your his boss. Kenny had the final say on this team. Ozzie might of wanted grinders/small ball; but Kenny could of said no.
I agree completely.

PeteWard
08-27-2010, 12:58 AM
I have never particularly cared for them. I admire professional franchises that stress a low drama approach. It's getting rarer because of the in your face culture of today's world.

I know what you mean but there is another side here. Every manager and/or coach is just so cold and corporate and utterly bland these days that Ozzie's candor is amazing. I would not call him "in your face". I just don't think he gives a ****. This can backfire but have you ever heard a Joe Girardi postgame? Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

SI1020
08-27-2010, 12:04 PM
I know what you mean but there is another side here. Every manager and/or coach is just so cold and corporate and utterly bland these days that Ozzie's candor is amazing. I would not call him "in your face". I just don't think he gives a ****. This can backfire but have you ever heard a Joe Girardi postgame? Zzzzzzzzzzzz. You make a good point and cause me to rethink my original post. Yes, I like sports men and women with some flair and personality, but at the same time Ozzie's rants sometimes leave me wondering why he didn't just shut up in the first place.