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View Full Version : Who is to blame Ozzie or Kenny?


HarryChappas
08-22-2010, 09:36 PM
Should Kenny go for listening to Ozzie or should Ozzie get canned? Not having a DH as Ozzie wanted has assured the Sox of not making the post season. Kenny should have put Ozzie in his place and signed Jimmy. If we would have signed him or another masher we would have won this crappy division. I called this before the season started. The Sox wasted many great pitching performances and yes I know about the bullpen injuries, but we have been playing with 8 hitters all year long. Some one needs to take the blame! Also, Carlos must go.

doublem23
08-22-2010, 09:41 PM
Uh, the Sox rolled when their pitching was doing well, but let's not pretend like the Sox have been getting awesome pitching all year. We got off to a **** start because, in part, the pitching was awful, and these last 2-3 weeks we've been losing because the bullpen can't blow leads fast enough.

I'm as big an instigator of these DH fights as there are around here, but quite frankly the biggest thorn in the Sox's side all year has been the inconsistency of the staff. The Sox offense has more or less been bad all year, but really they find ways to win when they pitch and they find ways to lose when they don't. I'm not exactly sure why Carlos "must" go, either (I won't cry if the Sox part ways with him) but he's arguably been our 2nd best offensive player all season. We're already playing with 8 bats, as you said, letting offense go seems counterproductive.

kittle42
08-22-2010, 09:48 PM
Is there an option for both?

Really, though, if I had to get rid of one of the two, it would be Ozzie.

mrwag
08-22-2010, 09:51 PM
If the bullpen was worth a darn lately, we'd easily have half a dozen more wins just in the past couple of weeks. That's the difference now. We're scoring runs, but can't shut the door.

Pablo_Honey
08-22-2010, 09:53 PM
The Sox wasted many great pitching performances and yes I know about the bullpen injuries, but we have been playing with 8 hitters all year long.
Sadly, I've come to a realization that the Sox offense is a mess with or without Kotsay. Here's how I see this offense this year:

Pierre - below average
Rios - great
TCQ - above average
Vizquel - average
TCM - above average
Bacon - below average
Paulie - great
AJ - below average
Kotsay/Jones/Teahen - crap

We only have two legit hitters in this lineup. We are going to need a lineup better than this. I can understand not getting premium offense out of TCM, Bacon and AJ because those three guys play premium positions but the other guys need to either step the **** up or need to to go (Sorry Omar, your glove is great but your bat is not). Kotsay is just one of the problems of this lineup. It is very unfair to blame the downward spiral on Kotsay.

It's Dankerific
08-22-2010, 09:57 PM
So now its someone's fault to be in 2nd place in August? Just a week or so removed from 1st?

Nelfox02
08-22-2010, 10:04 PM
does anyone hear honestly think either one will go? for one second abandon the personal anger and think about it objectively-----why would JR whack one of them?

The only thing that makes me think it may be possible is that for a time we got to see that there is indeed some serious battles between Oz and KW, maybe that stuff was hyped up by the media, maybe some was just bull****, or maybe some of it was just a product of frustration with how the team was performing in the spring, but where there is smoke....

So does one or both let JR know they cant continue working with the other and resign/force JR to make a call? maybe, I doubt it

I think we are going to get more of the same for 2011 guys, in some ways are we not in a pretty similar spot this year than we were last year? falling out of the race in August, wondering why it had to go all wrong, but optimistic that we would have a solid roation the following year and KW would find a way to strengthen the offense (and defense) to support the pitching and thus make us a contender?

Im getting off topic-----back to the point, I would like to see at least one of them whacked just to show some accountability AND maybe usher a change in philosphy for this team (as its clear the current plan is worth **** year in year out) but I dont see it happening

whitesoxwin
08-22-2010, 10:05 PM
Post season ticket payment due Sept 9th...

Craig Grebeck
08-22-2010, 10:12 PM
Both are to blame.

And calling Rios "great" is quite bold. I was drooling over his production in June, but here we are in August and it seems like May was an aberration in an otherwise mediocre offensive season.

While this team was built to win with pitching, relying solely on a tremendous pitching staff will not work. It takes tremendous luck to get by with such an approach.

Dan H
08-22-2010, 10:16 PM
All I can say is that the performance by this team has been very up and down since the World Series. The White Sox have had one post season appearance since then and they needed a 163rd game to get it. In many other markets, both the GM and manager would at least feel some heat. I think changes need to be made but I don't run the club. I think next year both will be back. And the results won't be much different. Then maybe we can call for Lou Pinella come out of retirement.

Nelfox02
08-22-2010, 10:22 PM
I think next year both will be back. And the results won't be much different.


I agree, and that is what bothers me the most. After last year went belly up I let myself believe the Sox were going to go for it and add those pieces we needed to have a contender.......but the off season was a big dissapointment (IMO at least) and we were stuck with, as Daver put in another thread "a mediocre team with greatly above average pitching"

I just dont have the same optimism for the off season I did this time last year.....hopefully the surprise me

BringHomeDaBacon
08-22-2010, 10:29 PM
In 2005 the White Sox staff delivered one of the greatest pitching performances in postseason history. Both Ozzie and KW have been suckling on the nipple of that aberration ever since. Until that teat runs dry nothing is going to change. Based on many of the voices on this site my guess is that hasn't happened yet as neither can seem to do wrong.

HarryChappas
08-22-2010, 10:29 PM
So now its someone's fault to be in 2nd place in August? Just a week or so removed from 1st?

Wake up! This team isn't good and this division is weak. How much longer are we going to watch the Twins beat us with a lower payroll. Rise up SOX NATION! WE SHOULD EXPECT DIVISION TITLES!!!!!!!

DirtySox
08-22-2010, 10:35 PM
I'd like both gone. I think we see Kenny step down (up?) before Ozzie though.

dickallen15
08-22-2010, 10:35 PM
If the problem is the roster, then its KW's fault. He's Ozzie's boss. If the problem is not the roster, but how its used, then its Ozzie's fault. It seems to me, there has been plenty of fault with each.

psyclonis
08-22-2010, 10:38 PM
If the sox dont make it, Kenny is 100% at blame...
No real consistent DH has cost the Sox at least 5 wins this year.
Thome,Vlad,Damon, heck even Matsui were all available and cheap (based on talent) 1 year contracts.

WhiteSox5187
08-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Kenny's job is to make the personnel decisions and evaluate talent, not Ozzie. Kenny either did a piss poor job of that (by not re-signing Thome, by believing that Teahen could play third base, that Kotsay and Jones could actually contribute at DH) or he totally ceded his job to Ozzie. This year Kenny also has done a bad job of accountability by saying earlier in the year "Well this is the team Ozzie wanted," when the team was losing. The poor state of the farm system is a reflection on Kenny much more so than Ozzie. For what it's worth, Kenny is not particularly well liked amongst people in baseball with other teams (one phrase that came up with a member of an NL front office was "arrogant jackass") and Lip quoted some media member who stated something like "Kenny just wants to pose for the cameras." If I had to choose between one of them that had to go, I would say get rid of Kenny and keep Ozzie. Though I can not see Ozzie lasting long under a new GM barring Jerry's intervention.

HarryChappas
08-22-2010, 10:41 PM
If the sox dont make it, Kenny is 100% at blame...
No real consistent DH has cost the Sox at least 5 wins this year.
Thome,Vlad,Damon, heck even Matsui were all available and cheap (based on talent) 1 year contracts.

Vlad would have brought at least 8 more wins. Think about the how may one run losses we have had.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2010, 10:43 PM
If the sox dont make it, Kenny is 100% at blame...
No real consistent DH has cost the Sox at least 5 wins this year.
Thome,Vlad,Damon, heck even Matsui were all available and cheap (based on talent) 1 year contracts.Don't forget about the huge slump Beckham went through, AJs uncharacteristically terrible year, Pierre's slow start, Floyd's slow start, Peavy's slow start, the entire pitching staffs slow start, and Peavy's injury. Kenny is a dumbass for making all those things happen.

Nelfox02
08-22-2010, 10:52 PM
Don't forget about the huge slump Beckham went through, AJs uncharacteristically terrible year, Pierre's slow start, Floyd's slow start, Peavy's slow start, the entire pitching staffs slow start, and Peavy's injury. Kenny is a dumbass for making all those things happen.


Do you think Kenny did a good job this offseason?

I will give you that the things you mention above obviously cant be put on him, but I dont think the team he had go on the field opening day was that great. Not a bad team, but certianly not one that most people expected much from.

I guess we can get the age old payroll discussion in on this, that Kenny lacked the resouces to go out and get the best fixes available.....but then you see a move like Teahen????

SephClone89
08-22-2010, 10:56 PM
So now its someone's fault to be in 2nd place in August? Just a week or so removed from 1st?

Oh come on, haven't you been here for long enough?

:tealtutor:

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2010, 11:13 PM
Do you think Kenny did a good job this offseason?

I will give you that the things you mention above obviously cant be put on him, but I dont think the team he had go on the field opening day was that great. Not a bad team, but certianly not one that most people expected much from.

I guess we can get the age old payroll discussion in on this, that Kenny lacked the resouces to go out and get the best fixes available.....but then you see a move like Teahen????You do realize that the pitching staffs TERRIBLE start was a major reason the team was so bad? Every team goes through a rough stretch like the Sox are right now, but the beggining of the season made it so the Sox would have to play flawless baseball the rest of the season. NO this team isn't great, but it is good enough to win this division. The Sox played much below expectations, then got really hot to get back were they should have been. Everything evened it self out. Playing that well takes a beating on you, and the Sox are going through that right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see this team bounce back and play well again. Yea the famous negative people here said the Sox were going to suck, but much of the baseball community outside of WSI thought it would be a 2 or 3 team race division, with the Sox in it.

MLB.com predicted the Sox would win 88, that's what I expected. With baseball being the way baseball is, a few games could turn that into 95 wins.

Teahen is an average player who has has a average career. What teams out there don't have an average position player somewhere in their starting lineup. I could care less what the Yankees have the ability to do. Teahen is a perfectly fine 3B when your infield is supposed to give you 80+ RBIs per player and good defense. While your pitching staff is supposed to be one of the best in baseball. Also, your outfield is supposed to have a power slugger, an all around player, and a speedster. So now what? You have an average player, and a ****ty DH. That should be good enough.

What happened? The pitching staff blew huge chucks for 2 months, Beckham played like a AA player, and Alexei, Pierre, AJ and Teahen played much lower than their career average. The team dug themselves in a HUGE whole and now they are paying for it. I honestly expect this team to go out there next year an play well AS IS. A rotation of Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, and Jackson is beautiful. An infield that includes a refreshed Beckham, Alexei, and PK is awesome. And an outfield with a refreshed Pierre, Rios, and Quentin is great. We've seen what these players can do, now let's just hope they have finally gotten used to eachother and can start off a season on the right foot.

If anyone can be mad at KW for putting a core like this together than they are crazy. If he can get a DH and an arm for the bull pen next year, I would be very happy... but I wouldn't care if he through the same team out there next year.

I will say, I hate Ozzie for playing Kotsay so much.

*edit* Holy ****, that's got to be my longest post on WSI. :D:
take it for what you will, I don't care if you disagree, I'm proud I wrote an essay when I wasn't even assigned one. School is right around the corner.

LoveYourSuit
08-22-2010, 11:14 PM
Unless you tell me who is going to replace either one of them, I say you. keep them.


Just like the DH situaion with Thome, don't can the guy for the sake of canning someone and not finding somethng better. This team takes that approach way too often.

DirtySox
08-22-2010, 11:16 PM
Unless you tell me who is going to replace either one of them, I say you. keep them.


Just like the DH situaion with Thome, don't can the guy for the sake of canning someone and not finding somethng better. This team takes that approach way too often.

Hahn is rumored to take over at some point. I think he is your guy. No idea on Ozzie.

LoveYourSuit
08-22-2010, 11:19 PM
Hahn is rumored to take over at some point. I think he is your guy. No idea on Ozzie.

If it's Hahn, then no thanks.

I would want someone from inside the Twins or TB organization.

DirtySox
08-22-2010, 11:21 PM
If it's Hahn, then no thanks.

I would want someone from inside the Twins or TB organization.

/shrug

I look forward to a more saber oriented mind running things. I also think he is going to pay much more attention to the farm. I've lost a ton of faith in Kenny as GM.

HarryChappas
08-22-2010, 11:21 PM
You do realize that the pitching staffs TERRIBLE start was a major reason the team was so bad? Every team goes through a rough stretch like the Sox are right now, but the beggining of the season made it so the Sox would have to play flawless baseball the rest of the season. NO this team isn't great, but it is good enough to win this division. The Sox played much below expectations, then got really hot to get back were they should have been. Everything evened it self out. Playing that well takes a beating on you, and the Sox are going through that right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see this team bounce back and play well again. Yea the famous negative people here said the Sox were going to suck, but much of the baseball community outside of WSI thought it would be a 2 or 3 team race division, with the Sox in it.

MLB.com predicted the Sox would win 88, that's what I expected. With baseball being the way baseball is, a few games could turn that into 95 wins.

Teahen is an average player who has has a average career. What teams out there don't have an average position player somewhere in their starting lineup. I could care less what the Yankees have the ability to do. Teahen is a perfectly fine 3B when your infield is supposed to give you 80+ RBIs per player and good defense. While your pitching staff is supposed to be one of the best in baseball. Also, your outfield is supposed to have a power slugger, an all around player, and a speedster. So now what? You have an average player, and a ****ty DH. That should be good enough.

What happened? The pitching staff blew huge chucks for 2 months, Beckham played like a AA player, and Alexei, Pierre, AJ and Teahen played much lower than their career average. The team dug themselves in a HUGE whole and now they are paying for it. I honestly expect this team to go out there next year an play well AS IS. A rotation of Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, and Jackson is beautiful. An infield that includes a refreshed Beckham, Alexei, and PK is awesome. And an outfield with a refreshed Pierre, Rios, and Quentin is great. We've seen what these players can do, now let's just hope they have finally gotten used to eachother and can start off a season on the right foot.

If anyone can be mad at KW for putting a core like this together than they are crazy. If he can get a DH and an arm for the bull pen next year, I would be very happy... but I wouldn't care if he through the same team out there next year.

I will say, I hate Ozzie for playing Kotsay so much.

*edit* Holy ****, that's got to be my longest post on WSI. :D:
take it for what you will, I don't care if you disagree, I'm proud I wrote an essay when I wasn't even assigned one. School is right around the corner.
How is Quentin great? He is not dependable and is a complete head case. He also is not agood RF or LF. He would make a decent DH, but I forgot we have Kotsay and Jones.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2010, 11:26 PM
How is Quentin great? He is not dependable and is a complete head case. He also is not agood RF or LF. He would make a decent DH, but I forgot we have Kotsay and Jones.Pierre is pretty decent, Rios is great, and Quentin is very good (equals a Great-). I don't understand how being on pace for a 100rbi season could be bad.

WhiteSox5187
08-22-2010, 11:27 PM
Pierre is pretty decent, Rios is great, and Quentin is very good (equals a Great-). I don't understand how being on pace for a 100rbi season could be bad.

Because there is another side of the game called defense and he is lost defensively. He is also about as streaky a hitter as I have ever seen.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2010, 11:34 PM
Because there is another side of the game called defense and he is lost defensively. He is also about as streaky a hitter as I have ever seen.Offense can make up for defense, how do you think Adam Dunn still finds himself a job? When Quentin is going good, he can be the sole reason the Sox are in the middle of a winning steak. He CANNOT be the sole reason for a losing steak. Everything evens it's self out.

captain54
08-22-2010, 11:40 PM
*edit* Holy ****, that's got to be my longest post on WSI. :D:
take it for what you will, I don't care if you disagree, I'm proud I wrote an essay when I wasn't even assigned one. School is right around the corner.

If I was your teacher I would give you a "D" for your essay

You'd be happy with the same team out there next year? Not me...
the inconsistency of Bobby Jenks has seriously messed with the chemistry of the bullpen and have cost this team at least 5 games in the standings...the closer situation was shaky from the beginning of 2010, but it seems KW when with it anyway, keeping his fingers crossed.

The pitching staff was the crown jewel of the 2010 Sox, and when that faltered, everything fell apart like a house of cards this year.

Offensively, Beckham/Quentin don't have a long enough history to bank on for consistent production..when they weren't producing this year there were two huge holes in the lineup. I'm not even going to touch the lack of production at the DH spot.

Lip Man 1
08-22-2010, 11:53 PM
I'd be very surprised if either Kenny or Ozzie leave after this year myself. In fact unless a family situation or illness comes up I honestly don't see either leaving until new ownership is on the scene.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
08-22-2010, 11:58 PM
So now its someone's fault to be in 2nd place in August? Just a week or so removed from 1st? That's definitely not teal.

Wake up! This team isn't good and this division is weak. How much longer are we going to watch the Twins beat us with a lower payroll. Rise up SOX NATION! WE SHOULD EXPECT DIVISION TITLES!!!!!!!Why do sports fans jump on every cliche and then run it into the ground? We are not a "nation."

A big reason the Twins beat the Sox is that they are more patient with their minor league prospects. The Sox keep trading them away to try to win NOW, while the Twins keep having guys to bring up, and they are thoroughly trained in the Twins' system, so they fit right in. And since they are just up from the farm, they don't cost as much, giving the Twins a lower payroll.

captain54
08-22-2010, 11:59 PM
I'd be very surprised if either Kenny or Ozzie leave after this year myself. In fact unless a family situation or illness comes up I honestly don't see either leaving until new ownership is on the scene.

Lip

I would agree..Given JR's tendency toward loyalty, it's doubtful that two components of his stable that brought him a WS championship are going to be launched anytime soon.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-23-2010, 12:01 AM
If I was your teacher I would give you a "D" for your essay

the inconsistency of Bobby Jenks has seriously messed with the chemistry of the bullpen and have cost this team at least 5 games in the standings...the closer situation was shaky from the beginning of 2010, but it seems KW when with it anyway, keeping his fingers crossed.

The pitching staff was the crown jewel of the 2010 Sox, and when that faltered, everything fell apart like a house of cards this year.
I guess you're one of those teachers who gives bad grades to those who your agree with. Good for you.

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2010, 12:01 AM
Oh, yeah, I forgot the original point of the thread. Finishing in second won't get either of them fired, nor should it.

kittle42
08-23-2010, 12:48 AM
I guess your one of those teachers who gives bad grades to those who your agree with. Good for you.

Bad grade for you.

russ99
08-23-2010, 01:12 AM
Seriously, I don't see the point of this thread, other than those who feel the need to point fingers at their target of preference, be it Ozzie or Kenny (or both).

I don't point at either. If I felt the need to blame, that would be squarely on ownership who were too recession-scared to take a chance and put more into payroll, which would have led to a better team and attracted more fans, advertisers, etc.

Not saying there shouldn't be a budget, but my gripe since last November has been: You don't bring in a Rios and a Peavy then sit on your hands and cry poor. If you make the gutsy move last July/August to acquire impact players and open a window, then you need to follow through with that plan when it's obvious that more regular players are needed.

Heck, IMO Ozzie and Kenny should be credited for getting us this far with a flawed roster on multiple fronts.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-23-2010, 01:23 AM
Bad grade for you.Now that was a good one! :lol:
I'm glad there will always be people who criticize for spelling things incorrectly on a forum. It makes for good laughs. I deserved that.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2010, 06:42 AM
Ozzie with another bizarre statement; says its easier to manage the Sox than the Cubs. They expect you to win on the Northside, but not on the Southside. What the **** is he talking about.

LITTLE NELL
08-23-2010, 06:54 AM
That's definitely not teal.

Why do sports fans jump on every cliche and then run it into the ground? We are not a "nation."

A big reason the Twins beat the Sox is that they are more patient with their minor league prospects. The Sox keep trading them away to try to win NOW, while the Twins keep having guys to bring up, and they are thoroughly trained in the Twins' system, so they fit right in. And since they are just up from the farm, they don't cost as much, giving the Twins a lower payroll.

Good point, Nellie. The Ft Myers (Twins A ) team since I've been in Florida is always one of the best teams in the FL. State League. They must have excellent scouts and coaching because by the time a player is ready to jump to the big club he has learned all the fundementals of the game.

SOXfnNlansing
08-23-2010, 06:55 AM
Pierre - above average
Rios - played to expectations
TCQ - was who we thought he was
Vizquel - best 3rd baseman we've had since Crede
TCM - above average
Bacon - below average
Paulie - great
AJ - below average
Kotsay/Jones/Teahen - crap

We all knew this team would be bad offensively back before spring training. The disappointing thing about the 2010 team was the pitching. That's why you play the games, not just play them on paper. Booooooo!

TheOldRoman
08-23-2010, 09:06 AM
/shrug

I look forward to a more saber oriented mind running things. I also think he is going to pay much more attention to the farm. I've lost a ton of faith in Kenny as GM.I know! Hopefully we get a stathead who can duplicate the success of Paul DePodesta and Josh Byrnes! We would lose a whole bunch of games, but at least we could scoff that our method was superior.

SI1020
08-23-2010, 09:37 AM
Teahen is an average player who has has a average career.
Sorry for condensing your effort to this one sentence that I strongly disagree with. So so hitting and terrible defense does not make one an average player.

tsoxman
08-23-2010, 09:40 AM
I know! Hopefully we get a stathead who can duplicate the success of Paul DePodesta and Josh Byrnes! We would lose a whole bunch of games, but at least we could scoff that our method was superior.
You are right. The new GM may or may not be the answer. All I know right now based on the track record form the last few years, the current one we have definitely is not taking this franchise in the right direction.

I am willing to take my chances with somebody else.

SI1020
08-23-2010, 09:43 AM
I'd be very surprised if either Kenny or Ozzie leave after this year myself. In fact unless a family situation or illness comes up I honestly don't see either leaving until new ownership is on the scene.

Lip A very depressing thought to this Sox fan.

ghostface36
08-23-2010, 10:07 AM
its neither really
lots and lots of bad luck, and an inconsistent bullpen which can't be blamed on ozzie or kenny

ghostface36
08-23-2010, 10:11 AM
Don't forget about the huge slump Beckham went through, AJs uncharacteristically terrible year, Pierre's slow start, Floyd's slow start, Peavy's slow start, the entire pitching staffs slow start, and Peavy's injury. Kenny is a dumbass for making all those things happen.
basically
this team will be much much better next season

Domeshot17
08-23-2010, 10:11 AM
Kenny was made the fool by the people around him, which is his fault. Buddy Bell says Hey go get Mark Teahen, doesn't mean he had too. Ozzie says let me DH Kotsay, doesn't mean he has too.

That said, if I had to really look at it as winning a title next year, I trust Kenny to put the pieces in place more than Ozzie to work with an AL Roster.

ghostface36
08-23-2010, 10:16 AM
/shrug

I look forward to a more saber oriented mind running things. I also think he is going to pay much more attention to the farm. I've lost a ton of faith in Kenny as GM.
Kenny just overhauled the whole farm system what 3 years ago?
Gordon's gonna be really really good for a long time potential to be great
Jared Mitchell is gonna be atleast an average mlb player and our pick from this year is already on the team--kenny has been drafting good

Tragg
08-23-2010, 10:22 AM
Pierre is pretty decent, Rios is great, and Quentin is very good (equals a Great-). I don't understand how being on pace for a 100rbi season could be bad.
Pierre is average and his productivity could be matched by a player at $1 mill or less.
Quentin is okay.
Rios is great.
Kotsay is terrible for how Guillen uses him; he's adequate for a 4th outfielder, but, again, you don't need to spend $1.5 mill on a 4th outfielder.
Way too much overreliance on mediocre veterans.
Not very good talent evaluation. The drafts are bad and the field manager can't see spot talent past the obvious and all too frequently mistakes mediocre or below with quality.
REcently, trades have been poorly executed
Good thing we have a high budget.
I don't know who's at fault, but this tandem is underperforming.
We have no 3B, RF, DH. WE're below par in LF. Catching is a big problem for next season. The bullpen will be totally reworked, with only Santos and Thornton reliable returnees. Lot of work ahead.

jdm2662
08-23-2010, 10:30 AM
So, since we only had about 25 or so of these threads in April or May, how many of these treads will be started after every loss from here on out??

If I had to choose which one to fire, it would be Ozzie.

However, I will not shed a tear if either or both is fired or is not fired. Firing them just to fire them makes no sense. If you can bring in an upgrade, go for it. If not, then don't do it.

For those that say they are both arrogant and big mouth idiots, well, you are right. Arrogance/egos goes around with success. It's the price you pay for success. It happened with the Bears in the 80s and 2006, the Bulls in the 90s, and it will happen, if already hasn't, with the Blackhawks. You just got to tune it out and hope the team continues success.

Harry Chappas
08-23-2010, 10:46 AM
Wake up! This team isn't good and this division is weak. How much longer are we going to watch the Twins beat us with a lower payroll. Rise up SOX NATION! WE SHOULD EXPECT DIVISION TITLES!!!!!!!

Just wanted to jump in here and point out that there are two Harry Chappas.' I don't want to get lumped in with this guy.

DirtySox
08-23-2010, 10:53 AM
Kenny just overhauled the whole farm system what 3 years ago?
Gordon's gonna be really really good for a long time potential to be great
Jared Mitchell is gonna be atleast an average mlb player and our pick from this year is already on the team--kenny has been drafting good

Sorry dude, but you obviously haven't been paying much attention to the farm system. It is one of the worst in all baseball. They need to hit on more then first round picks.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-23-2010, 11:17 AM
Pierre is average and his productivity could be matched by a player at $1 mill or less.
Quentin is okay.
Rios is great.
Kotsay is terrible for how Guillen uses him; he's adequate for a 4th outfielder, but, again, you don't need to spend $1.5 mill on a 4th outfielder.
Way too much overreliance on mediocre veterans.
Not very good talent evaluation. The drafts are bad and the field manager can't see spot talent past the obvious and all too frequently mistakes mediocre or below with quality.
REcently, trades have been poorly executed
Good thing we have a high budget.
I don't know who's at fault, but this tandem is underperforming.
We have no 3B, RF, DH. WE're below par in LF. Catching is a big problem for next season. The bullpen will be totally reworked, with only Santos and Thornton reliable returnees. Lot of work ahead.I don't know where to begin. I disagree with almost everything. The only thing I agree with is that the theme of this season is everyone underperforming.

ghostface36
08-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Sorry dude, but you obviously haven't been paying much attention to the farm system. It is one of the worst in all baseball. They need to hit on more then first round picks.
oh no i do know how awful our farm system is, i'm just saying they completely revamped it only 3 years ago you need more time then that to evaluate

Pablo_Honey
08-23-2010, 11:43 AM
oh no i do know how awful our farm system is, i'm just saying they completely revamped it only 3 years ago you need more time then that to evaluate
You do have a fair point but sadly it doesn't apply to the Sox. Don't ever buy the whole "going in the new direction" of the Sox drafting. We still save our money by drafting signable college players and then try to fool everyone with this "aggressiveness" by taking fliers on raw players that we have zero chance of developing properly. It doesn't help Kenny just keeps traiding these prospects away. If the Sox drafting philosophy has truly changed, we will regret trading away some of our recent draftees. It most likely has not changed much, so we will see the same ol' barren farm system that manages to squeak out just enough to land veterans and those prospects given up will amount to nothing.

Nelfox02
08-23-2010, 12:14 PM
basically
this team will be much much better next season


uh, why?

not trying to be an ass, just wondering what you position is because I have very little optimism that next year will be much different than what we are seeing here (I actually think there is a good chance this team will me much much WORSE next season actually)

maybe you can make me feel better about the direction this team is headed......

hawkjt
08-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Throwing out the two teams with obscene payrolls(NY and Boston)...what manager/GM teams have done much better?
Gardy and Smith? solid,but cannot win in the postseason.
Torre and the guy in LA?...not so hot this year either
Texas?...finally might win a division,but where they been for 10 years?

In case anyone has not been paying attention...this is not an exact science.
Thome hit .215 his last two months last year..onbase of about.280...and at age 39 he comes back with a good year? go figure.
Betemit was horrible last year,and then this year he hits .420+? go figure.
Kotsay hits .294 last year,and this year cannot break .230? go figure.
AJ hits .300 last year,this year,cannot break .240...go figure.
Peavy has a relatively injury free career,then Sox acquire him and in his first full season he tears a back muscle off the bone,which baseball people claim they have never seen before? go figure.

Before the season if you were told that Peavy would win 6 games...you think the Sox would be even in the hunt in August? Not me.

I wish that Kenny could have landed Damon before the season...other than that, I think he did ok with his payroll.
Ozzie has them playing hard,and is the best Sox manager since Lopez...he can stay...so can Kenny. Just get luckier next year,please.

ghostface36
08-23-2010, 12:26 PM
uh, why?

not trying to be an ass, just wondering what you position is because I have very little optimism that next year will be much different than what we are seeing here (I actually think there is a good chance this team will me much much WORSE next season actually)

maybe you can make me feel better about the direction this team is headed......
well imagine if we didn't start the first two months of this season ****ty
beckham will continue to get better and i think alexei will as well
healthy peavy, hopefully still have jackson i just think they have a better chance next year, paulie wont have the same season he's having now but if he's still with us he'll play good

It's Dankerific
08-23-2010, 01:50 PM
Oh come on, haven't you been here for long enough?

:tealtutor:

Ive said this before, I dont see the difference with my eyes. I have to try to recall from memory where "teal" is. if the little box thing pulled up, id get it every time.

DumpJerry
08-23-2010, 02:23 PM
Post season ticket payment due Sept 9th...
Sept. 7th.

eriqjaffe
08-23-2010, 02:27 PM
Ive said this before, I dont see the difference with my eyes. I have to try to recall from memory where "teal" is. if the little box thing pulled up, id get it every time.You could always type it by hand, which is what I do.

insert sarcasm here

Rdy2PlayBall
08-23-2010, 02:45 PM
Sorry for condensing your effort to this one sentence that I strongly disagree with. So so hitting and terrible defense does not make one an average player.Just because he's bad at 3B doesn't mean he is a bad overall defender. With all the other positions he has played, he has been an average player. Just in case you didn't know, Crede and Uribe were great fielders... not average. So Teahen doesn't have to play to their level to meet your expectations as an average fielder.

Your confusing average, with good. Getz sucks, Fields sucks, we got a better player out of that deal. Teahen is having a bad year, and it's unfair to call the guy bad at baseball just because of this one year. With this attitude, we'd never have Rios. Give the guy a freaking break. I never said he was good, he's having an average career.

.270 career average
14 HR
70 RBIs
10SB

The guy is average, and isn't good at 3B. Play him somewhere else.

Daver
08-23-2010, 02:55 PM
Just because he's bad at 3B doesn't mean he is a bad overall defender. With all the other positions he has played, he has been an average player. Just in case you didn't know, Crede and Uribe were great fielders... not average. So Teahen doesn't have to play to their level to meet your expectations as an average fielder.

Your confusing average, with good. Getz sucks, Fields sucks, we got a better player out of that deal. Teahen is having a bad year, and it's unfair to call the guy bad at baseball just because of this one year. With this attitude, we'd never have Rios. Give the guy a freaking break. I never said he was good, he's having an average career.

.270 career average
14 HR
70 RBIs
10SB

The guy is average, and isn't good at 3B. Play him somewhere else.

Rios is one of the few well above average defensive players on the Sox roster.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-23-2010, 02:59 PM
Rios is one of the few well above average defensive players on the Sox roster.I agree on that, but even last year some people weren't happy about his defense. I wen't to at least 3 games where he was booed for letting a ball drop in front of him instead of diving. If Teahen was having a year like he usually does, everyone would be "meh" one this subject. This year he had a rough start, and now hes the reason people whine about our next year roster.

Many people didn't expect Rios to play this year like he has his entire career, but look at whats happening. It's just like the years before last.

Harry Chappas
08-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Sorry dude, but you obviously haven't been paying much attention to the farm system. It is one of the worst in all baseball. They need to hit on more then first round picks.

While I agree with you, the "overhaul" is only a few seasons' old. If you look at recent signings, I would say the arrow is pointing up. Beckham, Sale, Richard (traded away), Mitchell, Alexei, and to a lesser extent, "the Tank" have shown that the Sox have made strides in talent evaluation.

However, KW's philosophy seems to be that the farm is used to pry vets from teams looking to shed payroll. I don't think he is alone in this approach.

At the end of the day, I don't care WHERE the talent comes from, I care about winning. Last season was brutal but the year before, they won the division beating the "model" Twins. This year, they were in first for a while, but the bullpen has imploded and Peavy is on the DL. Few teams would have the farm depth to absorb these blows and still remain on top.

WhiteSox5187
08-23-2010, 04:51 PM
Rios is one of the few well above average defensive players on the Sox roster.

Are you talking about coming into the season? Because currently Alexei is well above average.

Daver
08-23-2010, 05:04 PM
Are you talking about coming into the season? Because currently Alexei is well above average.

Alexei has problems with consistency, he goes through stretches where it seems he's just lost, but he is improving. The few I was referring to are Rios, Vizquel, and Buerhle, though some would probably put Konerko in this group as well.

WhiteSox5187
08-23-2010, 05:05 PM
Alexei has problems with consistency, he goes through stretches where it seems he's just lost, but he is improving. The few I was referring to are Rios, Vizquel, and Buerhle, though some would probably put Konerko in this group as well.

I think that Alexei has been fairly consistent with the glove just about all year. He still makes mistakes like every shortstop would, but I feel confident with him and Beckham up the middle for the years to come.

Craig Grebeck
08-23-2010, 05:45 PM
Throwing out the two teams with obscene payrolls(NY and Boston)...what manager/GM teams have done much better?
Gardy and Smith? solid,but cannot win in the postseason.
Torre and the guy in LA?...not so hot this year either
Texas?...finally might win a division,but where they been for 10 years?

In case anyone has not been paying attention...this is not an exact science.
Thome hit .215 his last two months last year..onbase of about.280...and at age 39 he comes back with a good year? go figure.
Betemit was horrible last year,and then this year he hits .420+? go figure.
Kotsay hits .294 last year,and this year cannot break .230? go figure.
AJ hits .300 last year,this year,cannot break .240...go figure.
Peavy has a relatively injury free career,then Sox acquire him and in his first full season he tears a back muscle off the bone,which baseball people claim they have never seen before? go figure.

Before the season if you were told that Peavy would win 6 games...you think the Sox would be even in the hunt in August? Not me.

I wish that Kenny could have landed Damon before the season...other than that, I think he did ok with his payroll.
Ozzie has them playing hard,and is the best Sox manager since Lopez...he can stay...so can Kenny. Just get luckier next year,please.
Save Betemit, lots of people saw all those things coming. They weren't out of nowhere. Peavy's injury, too, was not unforeseen. He's a pitcher with a lot of mileage and so-so mechanics.

SI1020
08-23-2010, 05:57 PM
Just because he's bad at 3B doesn't mean he is a bad overall defender. With all the other positions he has played, he has been an average player. Just in case you didn't know, Crede and Uribe were great fielders... not average. So Teahen doesn't have to play to their level to meet your expectations as an average fielder.

Your confusing average, with good. Getz sucks, Fields sucks, we got a better player out of that deal. Teahen is having a bad year, and it's unfair to call the guy bad at baseball just because of this one year. With this attitude, we'd never have Rios. Give the guy a freaking break. I never said he was good, he's having an average career.

.270 career average
14 HR
70 RBIs
10SB

The guy is average, and isn't good at 3B. Play him somewhere else. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Teahen showed early promise, but has not improved and I still would not call him average at this point. I do agree that he is best suited at a position other than 3B, but where that would be with the Sox I don't know. He was needed to fill a hole at third.

Tragg
08-23-2010, 07:11 PM
Throwing out the two teams with obscene payrolls(NY and Boston)...what manager/GM teams have done much better?
Gardy and Smith? solid,but cannot win in the postseason.
Torre and the guy in LA?...not so hot this year either
Texas?...finally might win a division,but where they been for 10 years?

In case anyone has not been paying attention...this is not an exact science.
Thome hit .215 his last two months last year..onbase of about.280...and at age 39 he comes back with a good year? go figure.
Betemit was horrible last year,and then this year he hits .420+? go figure.
Kotsay hits .294 last year,and this year cannot break .230? go figure.
AJ hits .300 last year,this year,cannot break .240...go figure.
Peavy has a relatively injury free career,then Sox acquire him and in his first full season he tears a back muscle off the bone,which baseball people claim they have never seen before? go figure.

Before the season if you were told that Peavy would win 6 games...you think the Sox would be even in the hunt in August? Not me.

I wish that Kenny could have landed Damon before the season...other than that, I think he did ok with his payroll.
Ozzie has them playing hard,and is the best Sox manager since Lopez...he can stay...so can Kenny. Just get luckier next year,please.
peavy was on the DL when we acquired him. It's hardly mere "Bad luck" he resides there now. Kotsay has never been a very good hitter - while this year he is particularly poor, he also is 35 years old; and AJ is 34- 34, 35, these guys decline and you need to be ready for it. Oh and nobody would be so mad about Kotsay if Guillen would use him like he should be- as 4th outfielder.

As for Guillen, I agree, keeping the team playing hard is his clear greatest asset as manager.
But he has liabilities- we all know about Kotsay, Erstad, Wise and Owens...but is there a counter...can we name players who were sleepers that Guillen saw talent in and they turned into productive players?
Cotts is about it. One reason we don't see that is you get that from young players and Guillen has a clear bias toward veterans (and mediocre ones). Heck, Guillen is reluctant to play the young talent in September call up time when the Sox are out of it.

Now maybe a lot of this is more Williams than Guillen. My sense has been that it's guillen, but maybe it's Williams. The Edwin Jackson trade exhibited a clear preference toward veterans, and Williams executed that trade for a 1.3 season player at 5 times the price.

JB98
08-23-2010, 07:43 PM
peavy was on the DL when we acquired him. It's hardly mere "Bad luck" he resides there now. Kotsay has never been a very good hitter - while this year he is particularly poor, he also is 35 years old; and AJ is 34- 34, 35, these guys decline and you need to be ready for it. Oh and nobody would be so mad about Kotsay if Guillen would use him like he should be- as 4th outfielder.

As for Guillen, I agree, keeping the team playing hard is his clear greatest asset as manager.
But he has liabilities- we all know about Kotsay, Erstad, Wise and Owens...but is there a counter...can we name players who were sleepers that Guillen saw talent in and they turned into productive players?
Cotts is about it. One reason we don't see that is you get that from young players and Guillen has a clear bias toward veterans (and mediocre ones). Heck, Guillen is reluctant to play the young talent in September call up time when the Sox are out of it.

Now maybe a lot of this is more Williams than Guillen. My sense has been that it's guillen, but maybe it's Williams. The Edwin Jackson trade exhibited a clear preference toward veterans, and Williams executed that trade for a 1.3 season player at 5 times the price.

Here's the problem with your argument, Tragg: Most of the young players who have come through here during Guillen's tenure haven't been talented. I can't really blame Ozzie for not using a lot of these guys. Most of them didn't earn the right to see much time. Did we really want Lance Broadway in our rotation anyway? I would say not.

I'll say this for Ozzie's handling of young players: He stuck by Beckham when a lot of fans and media wanted Gordon sent back to the minors. Ozzie's patience has been rewarded, as Beckham has responded with much-improved play over the last two months.

Of course, Beckham is talented, unlike a lot of other young players who have passed through the South Side over the last four or five seasons. The Sox farm system hasn't been real productive, so I can't really agree with the idea that Ozzie has buried a bunch of young, talented players during his time here.

I think there are some legitimate criticisms of Guillen that folks have offered on this board the insistence on giving away outs offensively and the overmanagement of the pitching staff come immediately to mind. But I personally have never been able to buy into the whole "Ozzie hates young guys" thing. The Sox just don't have many good young players hanging around, and most of the ones they do have were brought in from other organizations.

A. Cavatica
08-23-2010, 07:55 PM
As for Guillen, I agree, keeping the team playing hard is his clear greatest asset as manager.

Wow, I just don't see it. I think they tune him out by August 1st, every year. They mail it in just as often as they play hard.

But he has liabilities- we all know about Kotsay, Erstad, Wise and Owens...but is there a counter...can we name players who were sleepers that Guillen saw talent in and they turned into productive players?

Several young pitchers have blossomed under him: Garland, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Santos. Though I think he leans on Coop heavily, and he needs a deeper bullpen than most teams because he just loves to shuttle pitchers in and out of the game. He seems to have fewer biases about pitchers than he does about position players.

mcsoxfan
08-25-2010, 07:00 PM
In 2005 the White Sox staff delivered one of the greatest pitching performances in postseason history. Both Ozzie and KW have been suckling on the nipple of that aberration ever since. Until that teat runs dry nothing is going to change. Based on many of the voices on this site my guess is that hasn't happened yet as neither can seem to do wrong.

This is one of the best posts ever!