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JermaineDye05
08-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Link (http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/08/throwing_its_not_good_-_thornt.html)

Doesn't sound good. With the bullpen faltering, this is the last thing we need.

Pablo_Honey
08-22-2010, 02:22 PM
Oh ****, like hell we need this...Good thing Sale's agent pulled off a very smart deal.

TDog
08-22-2010, 03:23 PM
There has always been concern that Thornton needs more rest between relief stints than most relief pitchers to be effective, and this is consistent with what he was going through early in the season, which is why the Sox have never made him the go-to closer.

Coops4Aces
08-22-2010, 03:33 PM
TDog is on the money.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5650

Scroll all the way down and look at his splits based on days of rest.

kevingrt
08-22-2010, 05:16 PM
Not good. Plain and simple.

Lip Man 1
08-22-2010, 05:34 PM
I don't know if Ozzie's use of "match-up's" has anything to do with the spate of injuries or what. However I don't think it's prudent to almost continually have to use three, four, five guys a game, often with a decent lead.

Many times these guys are throwing more pitches in the bullpen than in the actual game. It simply adds up.

I just don't agree with having to use three guys to get two innings of work done simply because of the opponents hitters being left handed or right handed.

Lip

Foulke You
08-22-2010, 05:34 PM
When it rains...

LoveYourSuit
08-22-2010, 06:20 PM
Put him on the 15 day DL, get Threets up here. We need another arm badly.


I'ts retroactive, so Thornton can be back by the 2nd of September.

kevingrt
08-22-2010, 06:21 PM
Put him on the 15 day DL, get Threets up here. We need another arm badly.


I'ts retroactive, so Thornton can be back by the 2nd of September.

Completely agree. We are in bad need of an arm. I think Mark can go on two day's rest now though?

Chez
08-22-2010, 06:48 PM
I don't know if Ozzie's use of "match-up's" has anything to do with the spate of injuries or what. However I don't think it's prudent to almost continually have to use three, four, five guys a game, often with a decent lead.

Many times these guys are throwing more pitches in the bullpen than in the actual game. It simply adds up.

I just don't agree with having to use three guys to get two innings of work done simply because of the opponents hitters being left handed or right handed.

Lip

Spot on, Lip. Hindsight is 20/20, but it appears that our bullpen is burned out.

It's Dankerific
08-22-2010, 06:54 PM
Spot on, Lip. Hindsight is 20/20, but it appears that our bullpen is burned out.

I don't think its hindsight...

Lip Man 1
08-22-2010, 07:19 PM
Well there's another dynamic at work here too in the bullpen. Scott Linebrink just doesn't appear to have anything left...yet he's still on the club. He's taking up a roster spot I assume just because of his salary. It's much like the Sox kept a beat up Jose Contreras around because of what he was getting paid.

If you think about it, the Sox have been an arm short in the bullpen the entire season.

Lip

Crestani
08-22-2010, 07:41 PM
Well there's another dynamic at work here too in the bullpen. Scott Linebrink just doesn't appear to have anything left...yet he's still on the club. He's taking up a roster spot I assume just because of his salary. It's much like the Sox kept a beat up Jose Contreras around because of what he was getting paid.

If you think about it, the Sox have been an arm short in the bullpen the entire season.

Lip

Linebrink is done. All his pitches are at the same speed and straight. The only outs he gets are on pitches swung at out of the strike zone. Linebrink has been done since 2007 and the Padres new it. He needs to be DFA..!!:angry:

Harry Potter
08-22-2010, 08:42 PM
Well there's another dynamic at work here too in the bullpen. Scott Linebrink just doesn't appear to have anything left...yet he's still on the club. He's taking up a roster spot I assume just because of his salary. It's much like the Sox kept a beat up Jose Contreras around because of what he was getting paid.

If you think about it, the Sox have been an arm short in the bullpen the entire season.

Lip

Only $5.5M left on that genius 4 yrs/$19M contract we gave him after 2007!!

Foulke You
08-24-2010, 03:23 PM
Well there's another dynamic at work here too in the bullpen. Scott Linebrink just doesn't appear to have anything left...yet he's still on the club. He's taking up a roster spot I assume just because of his salary. It's much like the Sox kept a beat up Jose Contreras around because of what he was getting paid.

If you think about it, the Sox have been an arm short in the bullpen the entire season.

Lip
I couldn't agree more Lip. There is no point to keeping the guy around if you can never bring him into a close ballgame. What's the point of having a $5 million mop up man? Also, to expand on your point, we were essentially 2 arms short in the pen for much of the year because we were also carrying Randy Williams around for the first half of the year and Ozzie didn't trust him in close ballgames either. Not to mention the times when Jenks was unavailable but not put on the DL with back issues. We might be reaping the effects now of being short in the bullpen.

TDog
08-24-2010, 03:24 PM
I don't know if Ozzie's use of "match-up's" has anything to do with the spate of injuries or what. However I don't think it's prudent to almost continually have to use three, four, five guys a game, often with a decent lead.

Many times these guys are throwing more pitches in the bullpen than in the actual game. It simply adds up.

I just don't agree with having to use three guys to get two innings of work done simply because of the opponents hitters being left handed or right handed.

Lip

I don't think Guillen has misused the bullpen at all. The key relievers for the Twins have been worked harder than the key relievers for the White Sox. Pena has been worked harder than anyone else from the Sox bullpen, reflecting his middle relief role (probably by default) and his start (which was definitely by default). Thornton, for much of the year, was the only reliable lefty. Sale seems capable, and Threets, who also seems capable, will be coming back in September.

Linebrink has picked up a lot of low-pressure innings to help ease the load, but some believe Guillen stays with his starters too long.

It is true, though, that the White Sox relievers may be more fragile than the Twins relievers, although two Twins relievers are on the DL (one with what I believe is a knee injury) -- three if you include Nathan. Thornton has always been a concern, but Santos is pitching much more now than he did last year, which was his first professional season as a pitcher. I wouldn't suggest he may have nothing left, but he definitely needs some rest.

When you have Bobby Jenks throwing three scoreless innings in a tie game, it's obvious the bullpen is tired. Linebrink was probably the next best available pitcher they had Sunday. That Santos-allowed two-out grand slam Saturday hurt. It led to a loss after the Sox had a late four-run lead. Because the loss went into extra innings, it put more strain on the bullpen, which contributed to going into extra-innings in the second game, which further strained the bullpen leading to a loss in extra innings on Sunday. That one pitch might have cost the Sox two games in the standings.

I expected the Twins bullpen to blow up before the White Sox bullpen. Acquiring Capps may have eased some of that pain, but the Nationals rode Capps hard before trading him. And it's possible the Sox bullpen can come back and be as strong as June and July after getting some rest.

There are at least three pitchers and probably more who will be called up in September and should be a great help in the bullpen.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2010, 03:48 PM
TDog:

They only help of course if they can actually get hitters out.

We'll see.

And what is your actually feeling about 'match-up's' aka Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox school of managing a bullpen? It still doesn't make sense to me to have to use the number of guys the Sox use to end a game particularly when they have a decent lead. Pitchers should get hitters out...period. It doesn't matter what side of the plate they bat from. This is specialization overload and back to my point it's not just use in a game...it's also how often they have to warm up before coming in, if in fact they do.

Lip

voodoochile
08-24-2010, 04:28 PM
Too many people to reply to so I'll just sum up my thoughts...

Wonder if that extended game he had against the Twinkies is part of the problem?

Linebrink has actually been pitching very effectively the last month, the loss the other night notwithstanding. Check his game logs. He's been quite solid.

I'm seeing less of the matchup stuff from Ozzie than people seem to imply. He was using Thornton and Putz one inning apiece in the 7th and 8th and Bobby to close for most of the season. He interchanges Putz and Thornton based on what inning has more lefties coming up for the most part, but he's hardly been going batter to batter on a regular basis.

In addition, Ozzie has done well with his use of bringing Santos and Sale up to speed and has managed to return Linebrink to effectiveness by select usage and letting him rebuild confidence.

It sucks that Thornton is hurt, but the reason the bullpen is burned out at the moment is because the starters haven't been effective enough and there's been a bunch of 1-run games recently including a DH and a few extra inning games. This is by far the best bullpen since 2005 and probably actually better.

TDog
08-24-2010, 05:25 PM
Too many people to reply to so I'll just sum up my thoughts...

Wonder if that extended game he had against the Twinkies is part of the problem?

Linebrink has actually been pitching very effectively the last month, the loss the other night notwithstanding. Check his game logs. He's been quite solid.

I'm seeing less of the matchup stuff from Ozzie than people seem to imply. He was using Thornton and Putz one inning apiece in the 7th and 8th and Bobby to close for most of the season. He interchanges Putz and Thornton based on what inning has more lefties coming up for the most part, but he's hardly been going batter to batter on a regular basis.

In addition, Ozzie has done well with his use of bringing Santos and Sale up to speed and has managed to return Linebrink to effectiveness by select usage and letting him rebuild confidence.

It sucks that Thornton is hurt, but the reason the bullpen is burned out at the moment is because the starters haven't been effective enough and there's been a bunch of 1-run games recently including a DH and a few extra inning games. This is by far the best bullpen since 2005 and probably actually better.

I pretty much agree with this.

In September, I expect at least Threets and Harrell will be in the bullpen and both could be effective situationally.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2010, 05:26 PM
Too many people to reply to so I'll just sum up my thoughts...

Wonder if that extended game he had against the Twinkies is part of the problem?

Linebrink has actually been pitching very effectively the last month, the loss the other night notwithstanding. Check his game logs. He's been quite solid.

I'm seeing less of the matchup stuff from Ozzie than people seem to imply. He was using Thornton and Putz one inning apiece in the 7th and 8th and Bobby to close for most of the season. He interchanges Putz and Thornton based on what inning has more lefties coming up for the most part, but he's hardly been going batter to batter on a regular basis.

In addition, Ozzie has done well with his use of bringing Santos and Sale up to speed and has managed to return Linebrink to effectiveness by select usage and letting him rebuild confidence.

It sucks that Thornton is hurt, but the reason the bullpen is burned out at the moment is because the starters haven't been effective enough and there's been a bunch of 1-run games recently including a DH and a few extra inning games. This is by far the best bullpen since 2005 and probably actually better.
Yeah, that's, uh, that's not true.

TDog
08-24-2010, 05:39 PM
TDog:

They only help of course if they can actually get hitters out.

We'll see.

And what is your actually feeling about 'match-up's' aka Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox school of managing a bullpen? It still doesn't make sense to me to have to use the number of guys the Sox use to end a game particularly when they have a decent lead. Pitchers should get hitters out...period. It doesn't matter what side of the plate they bat from. This is specialization overload and back to my point it's not just use in a game...it's also how often they have to warm up before coming in, if in fact they do.

Lip

The Twins are more guilty of what you are talking about than the White Sox are. Guillen doesn't have guys warming up as often as Gardenhire does, from what I can see. Guillen certainly doesn't have the sort of bullpen activity going on that Manuel did when he was managing the Sox.

I would rather see the pitchers go deeper into the games, even pitching complete games once in a while to give the bullpen a day or night off. Every pitcher is different and every game puts a different amount of strain on pitchers, of course, but in general, you put less strain on your pitching staff by having a starter go an extra inning than you do warming up a reliever and running him out for that inning. If that reliever is one of your A relievers, it puts more strain on your bullpen than if he is one of your lesser relievers, but pitch count isn't nearly as important as people make it out to be.

On the upside, the next five starters should be getting extra rest thanks to Monday's off-day. Jackson might feel as if he's been on a virtual vacation. On the other hand, I read that the Twins are giving Liriano an extra day of rest before his next start because he has a dead arm.

I don't think the White Sox bullpen issues reflect overuse at all. It seems the bullpen was just hit with a perfect storm. I hope the worst of it has passed. And if it has, better it happen in mid August than September.

voodoochile
08-24-2010, 06:56 PM
Yeah, that's, uh, that's not true.

The starting pitching was more effective in 2005 so it masked some of the deficiencies of the bullpen. Heck they had 4 complete games in the ALC for cripes sake. I think this bullpen is deeper and has better stuff as a rule. I think injuries and over use have damaged the effectiveness, but this year's bullpen is about as good as I can ever recall the Sox having.

But of course that is just IMHO...

Pablo_Honey
08-24-2010, 07:19 PM
The starting pitching was more effective in 2005 so it masked some of the deficiencies of the bullpen. Heck they had 4 complete games in the ALC for cripes sake. I think this bullpen is deeper and has better stuff as a rule. I think injuries and over use have damaged the effectiveness, but this year's bullpen is about as good as I can ever recall the Sox having.

But of course that is just IMHO...
Hmm, I can see where you are coming from, but I will have to respectfully disagree. Back in 2005, we had a closer we could depend on (Well, until he got injured at which point Bobby took over and the rest is history) and didn't have to carry the likeness of Pena and Linebrink in our pen. Sergio, after getting off to a hot start, has been inheriting a bit too many runners and have been rather hittable. Sale couldn't have been more awesome in his relief stints so far but I'm worried we will start depending on him which kinda defeats the purpose of preserving his arm after college season. Overall, we have a pen without a reliable closer and no shutdown guys after Thornton and Putz. I'd love if Santos and Sale became like that too, but either guy carries a health risk and relative inexperience so I'm not holding my breath.

TDog
08-24-2010, 07:53 PM
Hmm, I can see where you are coming from, but I will have to respectfully disagree. Back in 2005, we had a closer we could depend on (Well, until he got injured at which point Bobby took over and the rest is history) and didn't have to carry the likeness of Pena and Linebrink in our pen. Sergio, after getting off to a hot start, has been inheriting a bit too many runners and have been rather hittable. Sale couldn't have been more awesome in his relief stints so far but I'm worried we will start depending on him which kinda defeats the purpose of preserving his arm after college season. Overall, we have a pen without a reliable closer and no shutdown guys after Thornton and Putz. I'd love if Santos and Sale became like that too, but either guy carries a health risk and relative inexperience so I'm not holding my breath.

The 2005 White Sox started out the season with Shingo closing. He saved the 1-0 opener with a scoreless ninth and was being brought in in the ninth inning with a small lead into early May, although he had reduced his ERA to about 7. Hermanson replaced Shingo, but he had four of his five blown saves from mid-August through the rest of the season, which was when Jenks was eased into the closer role. Shingo finished the season pitching for the Mets.

Vizcaino and Marte were not as effective as the Sox had hoped they would be (although not as ineffective as Shingo). Walker, Adkins, Bajenaru and Sanders didn't pitch much because they were so ineffective. But Politte and Cotts had the best seasons of their careers. And their seasons remain most memorable.

y2j2785
08-25-2010, 12:08 AM
Scott Merkin's twitter says that both Thornton and Putz are likely head to the DL with Eric Threets and most likely Carlos Torres being called up. Idk how to post individual tweets so here's his page.

http://twitter.com/scottmerkin

Edit: Cowley also says both Putz and Thornton to DL.

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/22057525661

Huisj
08-25-2010, 12:26 AM
Oh where oh where are you DJ Carrasco? You know you're bullpen is in trouble when you find yourself longing for someone like him in the pen. Rubber arm, steadily decent--not amazing, not going to blow people away, but can come in in any situation and pitch level-headed and more often than not will be ok (or at least won't give up a ton of runs at once). The Sox have nobody like that right now, nor have they really all year. Pena has tried, but he's hit-or-miss. He's had brilliant outing but many many duds too.

Thrusting Torres and Threets into the fire right now scares me (especially because the only game I've been at all year was Torres' start in Detroit, and that didn't exactly give me confidence in his composure with the way he looked in the first few innings).

LITTLE NELL
08-25-2010, 07:42 AM
Oh where oh where are you DJ Carrasco? You know you're bullpen is in trouble when you find yourself longing for someone like him in the pen. Rubber arm, steadily decent--not amazing, not going to blow people away, but can come in in any situation and pitch level-headed and more often than not will be ok (or at least won't give up a ton of runs at once). The Sox have nobody like that right now, nor have they really all year. Pena has tried, but he's hit-or-miss. He's had brilliant outing but many many duds too.

Thrusting Torres and Threets into the fire right now scares me (especially because the only game I've been at all year was Torres' start in Detroit, and that didn't exactly give me confidence in his composure with the way he looked in the first few innings).

It still boggles the mind why we did not bring DJ Carrasco back.

hawkjt
08-25-2010, 09:38 AM
Yes, DJ Carrasco would look pretty good right now. I know he was on the market with the usual Pirate firesale late last month ...did he get picked up by anyone? If not, he could have helped.

Sounds like Harrell and Threats might be on the way..here comes the calvary to save the day?:?:

One thing that is clear, the rash of injuries,including in the bullpen,around baseball is extreme this year. It just seems like guys are dropping like flies all over the league,every day.
Who has a solid bullpen right now? Twins and Sox are leaking oil,Tigers are struggling...Cubs are horrible..sometimes I think the contenders are the ones who are most hurting at this point because they actually tried very hard to win every game with their bullpens thruout the whole year.

Ozzie gets hammered,by me sometimes and others,for sticking with his starters too deep,but now he gets hammered for overuse of bullpen. Nature of the beast,I guess. I keep thinking back to the Stoney comment that in august and sept, the managers priority has to be to protect his most valuable asset down the stretch...the bullpen. It is a juggling act all year,really. Not enough work...too much work? In the end, it probably just depends on having some physical freaks out there that can handle the punishment...no wonder bullpen guys rally or crap out year to year.

Chez
08-25-2010, 09:53 AM
Yes, DJ Carrasco would look pretty good right now. I know he was on the market with the usual Pirate firesale late last month ...did he get picked up by anyone? If not, he could have helped.

Sounds like Harrell and Threats might be on the way..here comes the calvary to save the day?:?:

One thing that is clear, the rash of injuries,including in the bullpen,around baseball is extreme this year. It just seems like guys are dropping like flies all over the league,every day.
Who has a solid bullpen right now? Twins and Sox are leaking oil,Tigers are struggling...Cubs are horrible..sometimes I think the contenders are the ones who are most hurting at this point because they actually tried very hard to win every game with their bullpens thruout the whole year.

Ozzie gets hammered,by me sometimes and others,for sticking with his starters too deep,but now he gets hammered for overuse of bullpen. Nature of the beast,I guess. I keep thinking back to the Stoney comment that in august and sept, the managers priority has to be to protect his most valuable asset down the stretch...the bullpen. It is a juggling act all year,really. Not enough work...too much work? In the end, it probably just depends on having some physical freaks out there that can handle the punishment...no wonder bullpen guys rally or crap out year to year.

He's with Arizona.

hawkjt
08-25-2010, 10:05 AM
Are there more injuries overall,and especially in pitching staffs this year around MLB?
Is this still fallout from the steroid era? Were pitchers using more than first thought, allowing them to recover and last thru the whole season?

VMSNS
08-25-2010, 10:50 AM
According the The Score this morning, the call-ups are Lucas Harrel (per his Facebook) and one other unnamed pitcher (probably Threets).

Harrel showed some guts last time out. Let's hope he can do it again.

FielderJones
08-25-2010, 10:53 AM
Are there more injuries overall,and especially in pitching staffs this year around MLB?
Is this still fallout from the steroid era? Were pitchers using more than first thought, allowing them to recover and last thru the whole season?

How the hell did Big Ed Walsh pitch 464 innings without steroids?

Chez
08-25-2010, 10:54 AM
According the The Score this morning, the call-ups are Lucas Harrel (per his Facebook) and one other unnamed pitcher (probably Threets).

Harrel showed some guts last time out. Let's hope he can do it again.

Ugh. Not good. I guess it was about this time in 2005 that Bobby Jenks was called up to help out an injured bullpen. Maybe Chris Sale becomes the 2010 version of Jenks circa 2005? Or maybe Bobby returns to form.

Chez
08-25-2010, 10:55 AM
How the hell did Big Ed Walsh pitch 464 innings without steroids?

That was before pitchers had rotator cuffs and labrums! :D:

Hitmen77
08-25-2010, 11:26 AM
It still boggles the mind why we did not bring DJ Carrasco back.

How far apart where the Sox and Carrasco again in $ amount? He's making less than a million this year for Pitt/Ariz. So, we let him go over a few hundred thousand? We could sure use him now. What was the point of getting rid of a good arm over what, in baseball, is a rather small amount of money?

How the hell did Big Ed Walsh pitch 464 innings without steroids?

In the dead ball era, maybe he and other pitchers weren't throwing at 95 mph.

Hitmen77
08-25-2010, 11:40 AM
I pretty much agree with this.

In September, I expect at least Threets and Harrell will be in the bullpen and both could be effective situationally.

Yeah, but has Threets fully recovered from his turf toe injury?

FielderJones
08-25-2010, 12:02 PM
In the dead ball era, maybe he and other pitchers weren't throwing at 95 mph.

I'm pretty sure all the greats from that era were. I don't know if a spitball puts more or less strain on a pitching arm.

voodoochile
08-25-2010, 12:14 PM
According the The Score this morning, the call-ups are Lucas Harrel (per his Facebook) and one other unnamed pitcher (probably Threets).

Harrel showed some guts last time out. Let's hope he can do it again.

I expect that means Harrel gets the long relief role and Pena is moved to middle. Right now it's Santos/Linebrink and Sale doing setup with Bobby closing Pena gets middle relief which means he might throw a setup inning on a day the other guys need rest. Threets is the loogy.

You know that's not horrible either. Threets was effective in his time here. Linebrink is showing signs of returning to form. Sale appears to be on another planet or at least the league hasn't seen enough of him to figure out that funky motion yet.

All in all, if that's the bottom of the barrel, things could be a lot worse...

Noneck
08-25-2010, 12:18 PM
Linebrink is showing signs of returning to form.

If that happens, it would be huge. He was (many moons ago) what Putz was this year. We can all hope it comes back.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2010, 12:25 PM
Hitmen:

If memory serves the difference was 500,000.

Lip

Crestani
08-25-2010, 12:42 PM
I expect that means Harrel gets the long relief role and Pena is moved to middle. Right now it's Santos/Linebrink and Sale doing setup with Bobby closing Pena gets middle relief which means he might throw a setup inning on a day the other guys need rest. Threets is the loogy.

You know that's not horrible either. Threets was effective in his time here. Linebrink is showing signs of returning to form. Sale appears to be on another planet or at least the league hasn't seen enough of him to figure out that funky motion yet.

All in all, if that's the bottom of the barrel, things could be a lot worse...


I have no confidence in linebrink what so ever..!!

Balfanman
08-25-2010, 01:07 PM
How far apart where the Sox and Carrasco again in $ amount? He's making less than a million this year for Pitt/Ariz. So, we let him go over a few hundred thousand? We could sure use him now. What was the point of getting rid of a good arm over what, in baseball, is a rather small amount of money?

I seem to recall that the issue with Carrasco wasn't money. D. J. wanted to be a starter and Pittsburgh offerred him that opportunity. In hindsight, he probably wishes that he would of stayed with the Sox.

tsoxman
08-25-2010, 01:09 PM
How far apart where the Sox and Carrasco again in $ amount? He's making less than a million this year for Pitt/Ariz. So, we let him go over a few hundred thousand? We could sure use him now. What was the point of getting rid of a good arm over what, in baseball, is a rather small amount of money?



In the dead ball era, maybe he and other pitchers weren't throwing at 95 mph.
I do not get the Sox MO when it comes to payroll....During the season, we give out money like it's candy (by acquiring Peavy, Rios, Jackson), but during the off seson, we are tight as ticks.

voodoochile
08-25-2010, 01:26 PM
I do not get the Sox MO when it comes to payroll....During the season, we give out money like it's candy (by acquiring Peavy, Rios, Jackson), but during the off seson, we are tight as ticks.

Might have something to do with the candy they handed out during the season? :dunno:

Nellie_Fox
08-25-2010, 01:30 PM
I'm pretty sure all the greats from that era were. I don't know if a spitball puts more or less strain on a pitching arm.
I have nothing to back it up, but I seem to remember hearing it said that a spitball was hard on the elbow. The way you squeeze the ball out from between your fingers like a watermelon seed sent a shock up the arm or something.