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guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 07:33 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/08/guillen-fires-back-at-critics-over-thomes-departure.html

He went off, the last statement by him really worries me. Get it ready for what, for him leaving?

Ahh ****, he's got a point- he never brough us much besides hitting poor pitching anyway. The new direction is the only reason we're even in second place.

Harry Potter
08-18-2010, 07:37 PM
:popcorn:

Rockin Robin
08-18-2010, 07:41 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/08/guillen-fires-back-at-critics-over-thomes-departure.html

He went off, the last statement by him really worries me. Get it ready for what, for him leaving?

Ahh ****, he's got a point- he never brough us much besides hitting poor pitching anyway. The new direction is the only reason we're even in second place.
Come again?

BadBobbyJenks
08-18-2010, 07:42 PM
Nice rant about JD that has nothing to do with anything. Jermaine is out of baseball Oz, Thome is out performing any clown we put in at DH.

getonbckthr
08-18-2010, 07:42 PM
I love it.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 07:43 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Oh look, it's another "Thome didn't win us a championship" argument! This time with a brand new little sprinkle of "JD won us 2005" statment!

getonbckthr
08-18-2010, 07:45 PM
Nice rant about JD that has nothing to do with anything. Jermaine is out of baseball Oz, Thome is out performing any clown we put in at DH.
I agree with him though. Everyone talks about Thome but Dye contributed a lot to this organization and he is kind of forgotten.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 07:45 PM
Come again?


Think about it, you keep the same focus, you maintain the same mentality that this team had gone with and you're more or less ****ed. This team has been bettered through the want of a faster offense, of an offense that can hit more than just a three run bomb or a two run bomb. Much of what was our run came when we had exceptionally good two out hitting or hitting with RISP. That, we never saw before. It looks bleak now, but the team makes sense if the pieces work. The only problem spot has been DH, and to be honest, Thome was just a numbers guy- but they were useless when we needed him to step up.

I don't know, I don't want to get into the DH debate or anything like that, I just feel like Ozzie had the right idea of what he wanted to do with the team, and now he's getting screwed over because one guy shows him up. He's right, it's ****ing Jim Thome, he played for four years,and kicked our ass for the others- what about Dye, why does no one want him back?

**** him.

delben91
08-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Ozzie trying to put the media on the scent of his tirade as opposed to the team falling further back in the standings?

If he's trying to take the focus off his team and put it onto a debate as to whether Ozzie should've kept Thome or whether JD's contributions were more valuable, then he just succeeded.

BadBobbyJenks
08-18-2010, 07:47 PM
I agree with him though. Everyone talks about Thome but Dye contributed a lot to this organization and he is kind of forgotten.

What does this have to do with anything? We are not talking about Dye because he is out of baseball.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Well, this should give the media something to stew about for weeks to come. It's time for his annual rant, anyway. Maybe it'll rally the troops. Gonna need some popcorn for this.

Dibbs
08-18-2010, 07:48 PM
I'm more convinced than ever Ozzie is an idiot.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 07:48 PM
I agree with him though. Everyone talks about Thome but Dye contributed a lot to this organization and he is kind of forgotten.

I'm sure if Dye was on a team, he'd still be talked about as much as Thome is.

Rockin Robin
08-18-2010, 07:48 PM
Think about it, you keep the same focus, you maintain the same mentality that this team had gone with and you're more or less ****ed. This team has been bettered through the want of a faster offense, of an offense that can hit more than just a three run bomb or a two run bomb. Much of what was our run came when we had exceptionally good two out hitting or hitting with RISP. That, we never saw before. It looks bleak now, but the team makes sense if the pieces work. The only problem spot has been DH, and to be honest, Thome was just a numbers guy- but they were useless when we needed him to step up.

I don't know, I don't want to get into the DH debate or anything like that, I just feel like Ozzie had the right idea of what he wanted to do with the team, and now he's getting screwed over because one guy shows him up. He's right, it's ****ing Jim Thome, he played for four years,and kicked our ass for the others- what about Dye, why does no one want him back?

**** him.
Let's be real here -- how much faster than Jim Thome is Mark Kotsay?

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 07:49 PM
I agree with him though. Everyone talks about Thome but Dye contributed a lot to this organization and he is kind of forgotten.
Well yeah, JD was here longer but also I think he wore out his welcome when he got pouty about contracts one too many time. Jimmy's a future HOF-er and a guy described as a very nice guy who was willing to take a cheap contract to play here. On the other hand, JD came off as stubborn and arrogant when he refused to sign a contract that didn't guarantee him starting time in the field. Also his second half tanking last year did not help.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Let's be real here -- how much faster than Jim Thome is Mark Kotsay?
Let's be real here - how many positions can Thome field?

happydude
08-18-2010, 07:51 PM
I must confess I don't understand the attachment to Thome, either. Criticism of the failure to adequately fill the DH spot is valid but the commentary seems to go beyond that; as if Thome was some kind of White Sox legend.

Excepting a one and done playoff berth in 2008, we did nothing of any significance while he was here. In my view, seeking more athleticism at the DH spot was a sound decision given the base clogging that had gone on throughout Thome's tenure; its just unfortunate that we didn't do a better job of finding a more suitable replacement than Kotsay. The decision is more properly evaluated when it was made, not after the fact.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 07:52 PM
I must confess I don't understand the attachment to Thome, either. Criticism of the failure to adequately fill the DH spot is valid but the commentary seems to go beyond that; as if Thome was some kind of White Sox legend.

Excepting a one and done playoff berth in 2008, we did nothing of any significance while he was here. In my view, seeking more athleticism at the DH spot was a sound decision given the base clogging that had gone on throughout Thome's tenure; its just unfortunate that we didn't do a better job of finding a more suitable replacement than Kotsay. The decision is more properly evaluated when it was made, not after the fact.

I think Kenny tried. Damon, Dunn, Ramirez. It just didn't pan out.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 07:54 PM
Go away Ozzie.

SoxSpeed22
08-18-2010, 07:55 PM
I have a hard time seeing Ozzie manage past 2011, but I think it will be because he doesn't want to, not because he's doing a bad job. Jerry has put up with a lot of his crap over the years but I think he'll go with someone else.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 07:55 PM
I must confess I don't understand the attachment to Thome, either. Criticism of the failure to adequately fill the DH spot is valid but the commentary seems to go beyond that; as if Thome was some kind of White Sox legend.

Excepting a one and done playoff berth in 2008, we did nothing of any significance while he was here. In my view, seeking more athleticism at the DH spot was a sound decision given the base clogging that had gone on throughout Thome's tenure; its just unfortunate that we didn't do a better job of finding a more suitable replacement than Kotsay. The decision is more properly evaluated when it was made, not after the fact.

EXACTLY, I was not endeared to him, but he became a legend here without doing anything but one home run.

Made no sense to me. Still makes no sense to me.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 07:57 PM
I have a hard time seeing Ozzie manage past 2011, but I think it will be because he doesn't want to, not because he's doing a bad job. Jerry has put up with a lot of his crap over the years but I think he'll go with someone else.


Jerry won't be the reason he leaves. This franchise is connected through the seams.

happydude
08-18-2010, 07:57 PM
I think Kenny tried. Damon, Dunn, Ramirez. It just didn't pan out.

Agreed. I'm not very eager to play the blame game but, ultimately, he has to wear it.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 07:58 PM
. In my view, seeking more athleticism at the DH spot was a sound decision given the base clogging that had gone on throughout Thome's
Sorry if I'm picking you out out here, but I've seen a lot of people saying this so I'll share my two cents (Or rather, a rant). Frankly, I don't get this argument at all. Need athleticism? Get more athletic at other positions where athleticism actually matters, like right field and third base. There are only a handful DHs in MLB that can be considered athletic and even those guys aren't exactly fit either. A DH has one job to do and that is to hit. DHs are DHs because they hurt the team too much with their horrendous fielding but their bats are too good to not play into the lineup. If we need guys to give starters a rest, solidify the bench which we did. But expecting bench players to perform in a starting position is idiotic.

Rockin Robin
08-18-2010, 08:00 PM
You know who's a tremendous athlete? The guy hitting .273/.391/.593.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 08:00 PM
I must confess I don't understand the attachment to Thome, either. Criticism of the failure to adequately fill the DH spot is valid but the commentary seems to go beyond that; as if Thome was some kind of White Sox legend.

It's not the attachment to Thome. It's the complete and utter failure to get any reasonable production from the easiest position for a team to fill. On top of that, they let Thome fall into the hands of a division rival where he is putting up very good numbers and directly hurting the White Sox.

Also, base-clogging is one of the dumbest arguments that is associated with not bringing back a very good hitter. Especially if one has ever actually watched Kotsay run the bases.

Boondock Saint
08-18-2010, 08:02 PM
Let's be real here - how many positions can Thome field?

How many can Kotsay? Honestly.

And it's a plenty classy move by Ozzie to place the blame for three non-playoff seasons on Thome. Just a basic look at his stats shows that he isn't the reason they failed in '06, '07, and '09. It's total bull**** that he's so quick to throw Thome under the bus despite being a rock solid player and an amazing locker room guy, then act like Dye is some kind of savior, even though his 2007 and 2009 numbers were decidedly average.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 08:02 PM
EXACTLY, I was not endeared to him, but he became a legend here without doing anything but one home run.

Made no sense to me. Still makes no sense to me.
Thome also contributed to the explosive Sox offense in 2006, and that was the year where our pitching imploded, costing us a division title. He also provided the lone excitement in 2007 with his chase for 500 homeruns. He helped us make the postseason with that homerun in Game 163. He was one of the few good hitters we had in 2009, until the management wanted to give him a chance to win a ring by trading him to the Dodgers. The big guy may not have played us for long but he was fun to watch and he is a class guy that a lot of us loved. Not everyone needs to be Frank Thomas to be loved by the Sox fan base. At least Thome did more than Rowand to justify his legend status.

JB98
08-18-2010, 08:03 PM
Dear Ozzie,

Shut up and beat the Twins.

Thanks,

JB

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 08:03 PM
This Kotsay/Thome argument is never going to die, is it? I know we all disagree on the issue, but it's becoming circular, IMO. No one's going to change anyone's mind.

I'd love to know what Thome thinks about all this.

happydude
08-18-2010, 08:03 PM
EXACTLY, I was not endeared to him, but he became a legend here without doing anything but one home run.

Made no sense to me. Still makes no sense to me.

I wouldn't necessarily say he didn't do anything. He hit lots of homers and drove in runs as he's done throughout his career. Unfortunately, the team had no real success and decided to make a concerted effort to alter the style of play in a bid for enhanced success; Thome didn't fit the profile for the new style of play and became the odd man out, along with Dye.

When you don't achieve your objectives it is often wise to alter your approach. He fell by the wayside in the course of the alteration. As GoGo suggests, they most likely attempted to find a more suitable plug in than Kotsay and simply failed. That doesn't mean that it was a bad plan.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 08:04 PM
How many can Kotsay? Honestly.
Sorry should have tealed that post, but I thought I was being obviously sarcastic. No, I agree with you. Kotsay sucks and is a marginal bench player.

And it's a plenty classy move by Ozzie to place the blame for three non-playoff seasons on Thome. Just a basic look at his stats shows that he isn't the reason they failed in '06, '07, and '09. It's total bull**** that he's so quick to throw Thome under the bus despite being a rock solid player and an amazing locker room guy, then act like Dye is some kind of savior, even though his 2007 and 2009 numbers were decidedly average.
Yup. Ozzie is either just trying to save his face or just starting some **** up for no reason at all just so that the media's focus is away from his team's recent struggles.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 08:06 PM
And it's a plenty classy move by Ozzie to place the blame for three non-playoff seasons on Thome. Just a basic look at his stats shows that he isn't the reason they failed in '06, '07, and '09. It's total bull**** that he's so quick to throw Thome under the bus despite being a rock solid player and an amazing locker room guy, then act like Dye is some kind of savior, even though his 2007 and 2009 numbers were decidedly average.

Indeed.

Ozzie is embarrassing himself as well as the organization. If the White Sox are destined to implode the rest of this series, I hope Thome continues to drive the dagger home.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 08:06 PM
This Kotsay/Thome argument is never going to die, is it? I know we all disagree on the issue, but it's becoming circular, IMO. No one's going to change anyone's mind.
:hawk

"Don't stop now boys!"

I'd love to know what Thome thinks about all this.
I hear he is a quiet guy so all you'll get out of him is some nods and shaking heads.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 08:07 PM
Indeed.

Ozzie is embarrassing himself as well as the organization. If the White Sox are destined to implode the rest of this series, I hope Thome continues to drive the dagger home.

I don't. That's almost like wishing ill for the Sox. As much as I adore Thome, I'm hoping he won't get a hit for the rest of this series.

Boondock Saint
08-18-2010, 08:10 PM
I hear he is a quiet guy so all you'll get out of him is some nods and shaking heads.

That's because he knows how to address issues/criticism without making attacks and/or behaving like a jackass.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 08:11 PM
I don't. That's almost like wishing ill for the Sox. As much as I adore Thome, I'm hoping he won't get a hit for the rest of this series.
Agreed. Wishing Sox ill just for the sake of feeling right is just sick. I can understand being upset but we all have to remember that we are Sox fans first and foremost. Anything that is bad for the Sox should not be wished for.

cws05champ
08-18-2010, 08:11 PM
It's not the attachment to Thome. It's the complete and utter failure to get any reasonable production from the easiest position for a team to fill. On top of that, they let Thome fall into the hands of a division rival where he is putting up very good numbers and directly hurting the White Sox.

Also, base-clogging is one of the dumbest arguments that is associated with not bringing back a very good hitter. Especially if one has ever actually watched Kotsay run the bases.
+1

It's not that Thome was a legend why people were upset...he's not a White Sox legend. It's the failure to address the DH position past Kotsay/Jones. The people that were arguing to have Thome back were not asking for him to be a full time DH. It was clear that he was now a role player and a part-time DH...and that would have been perfect for the White Sox. To top it off he goes to the hated Twins (who were favored to win the division already) for $1.5M.

It was ridiculous when they first made the decision around Soxfest, and it's even more so now. With Morneau out for the Twins he adds even more value to their team instead of ours.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 08:12 PM
That's because he knows how to address issues/criticism without making attacks and/or behaving like a jackass.
Huh? I was just joking. I was referring to the radio commercials back in 2009(?) that had Chris Rongey take a phone call with a player. The Jim Thome skit involved him not saying much (if anything) and Rongey had to explain to the caller what he was doing. Sorry if I came off as a jackass. I do that all the time but I don't mean it mostly.

Edit: nvm, it was 2008. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wh0GFdqmno

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 08:13 PM
Huh? I was just joking. I was referring to the radio commercials back in 2009(?) that had Chris Rongey take a phone call with a player. The Jim Thome skit involved him not saying much (if anything) and Rongey had to explain to the caller what he was doing. Sorry if I came off as a jackass. I do that all the time but I don't mean it mostly.

I knew what you meant, and you didn't come off that way. I liked that commercial.

Boondock Saint
08-18-2010, 08:15 PM
Huh? I was just joking. I was referring to the radio commercials back in 2009(?) that had Chris Rongey take a phone call with a player. The Jim Thome skit involved him not saying much (if anything) and Rongey had to explain to the caller what he was doing. Sorry if I came off as a jackass. I do that all the time but I don't mean it mostly.

I wasn't attacking your post, just making an addendum. We're cool. :thumbsup:

edit: I also didn't catch the reference.

Domeshot17
08-18-2010, 08:17 PM
Typical Ozzie.... This year thome is in first and the sox are spiraling into second weakly.... Maybe the problem was never Jim Thome

happydude
08-18-2010, 08:23 PM
While criticism of the organization with regard to the DH situation is valid, in all fairness to Kotsay, that isn't the reason we're 4 games out (unless you want to make an argument that we would have had a much bigger lead but for his previous failures). He's actually been hitting consistently through the last several series. Of late, its the bullpen that has been our tormentor.

WhiteSox5187
08-18-2010, 08:38 PM
I would have rathered he not brought Thome into this and just started cursing out the Twins and their form of chicken **** baseball.

Soxman219
08-18-2010, 08:54 PM
Blame the bullpen for our recent struggles, not the DH. We were in first place like a week and a half ago. We were doing fine without Thome. That doesn't mean Ozzie should take a shot at Thome though, that was low.

Bob Roarman
08-18-2010, 09:07 PM
Yup. Three straight blown saves pretty much tells the story right now. Jenks has to be good for that bullpen to stay somewhat stable.

TDog
08-18-2010, 09:18 PM
This Kotsay/Thome argument is never going to die, is it? I know we all disagree on the issue, but it's becoming circular, IMO. No one's going to change anyone's mind.

I'd love to know what Thome thinks about all this.

Technically, we don't all disagree. There are factions that disagree. Those within certain factions generally agree with each other. I'm sure everyone disagrees with me. Not to get too specific, but I pretty much agree with Ranger, but he probably doesn't agree totally with me.

Your point is well taken, though. And it's irrelevant that statistics notwithstanding I don't believe the White Sox would be better off in the standings if they had Thome playing for them, although they would likely have at least one more win (and one less loss) if Thome were playing in the National League as he was at the end of last season.

Any White Sox fan who wants to see Thome do well to show up Guillen is a jerk. Guillen is the White Sox. Thome is not. I can't fathom why any White Sox fan would cheer against White Sox pitchers or cheer for the Twins. Wanting to see the White Sox succeed is supposed to be where this diverse community finds agreement.

It strikes me that the last time a reported Guillen tirade set off people into such fits was shortly before the White Sox went on a tear that would culminate in taking over first place before the All-Star break.

Here's hoping Jim Thome goes 0-for-August and September. Seriously, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

sachin
08-18-2010, 09:20 PM
Thome didn't do that much for the Sox. Seriously, it was either a HR, a DP or a SO.

Boondock Saint
08-18-2010, 09:23 PM
Thome didn't do that much for the Sox. Seriously, it was either a HR, a DP or a SO.

This post is broken. Fix it, please.

fram40
08-18-2010, 09:41 PM
Any White Sox fan who wants to see Thome do well to show up Guillen is a jerk. Guillen is the White Sox. Thome is not.

... Here's hoping Jim Thome goes 0-for-August and September. Seriously, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

I couldn't agree more.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 09:50 PM
What is Ozzie so upset about? Does he read these boards or something?

Man, I just do not think it is cool (or healthy for Ozzie) to always be blowing up like this. I wonder if it's mostly an act now.

ron_j_galt
08-18-2010, 09:51 PM
Thome didn't do that much for the Sox. Seriously, it was either a HR, a DP or a SO.

Exactly what will it take to get people to acknowledge what actually happened? The rate stats obviously all favor Thome. Fine. Let's go to counting stats over players that were here the whole time.

RBI, 2006-2009

Dye 375 (2391 PA)
Thome 372 (2182 PA)
Konerko 353 (2414 PA)
Pierzynski 223 (2157 PA)

Runs scored?

Dye 345
Thome 335
Konerko 302
Pierzynski 242

High-leverage slash lines?

2006: 338/444/588
2007: 275/359/606
2008: 273/400/584 (contra the "just one homer" canard, almost 50% of Thome's RBI in 2008 came in high-leverage situations)
2009: 227/382/409 (yeah, I guess he does suck).

I just don't understand it.

Back to lurking.

Mizzourah
08-18-2010, 10:09 PM
Ozzie Guillen wilts under pressure worst than anyone. I remember the media going after Rob Gallas for criticizing the fans. No one does it more than Ozzie. My response is **** you Ozzie. **** your hanger on kids and your woe is me attitude. This organization made him rich. These fans made him rich. And he is the first to turn on them when the going gets tough.

When you win this bs can be tolerated. This idiot has not won in years. And his act is tiresome when the results are not there.

Brian26
08-18-2010, 10:26 PM
EXACTLY, I was not endeared to him, but he became a legend here without doing anything but one home run.

Which home run was that?

Was it the Opening Night 2006 homer in the rain? Was it the homer in June of '06 when the Sox beat the Cardinals 1-0 on one hit? Was it the 500th walkoff homer against the Angels on September 16 of '07? Was it any of the homers Thome hit in April and May of '06 and early 2008 when he carried this team on his back?

Oh- you're talking about the homer in Game 163?

I think Thome was a legend here long before that game ever took place.

Brian26
08-18-2010, 10:29 PM
I just don't understand it.

Back to lurking.

You should post more often.

:thumbsup:

Red Barchetta
08-18-2010, 10:33 PM
I agree with him though. Everyone talks about Thome but Dye contributed a lot to this organization and he is kind of forgotten.

I agree, however Dye didn't just a walk off, 2-run HR against us in a pennant race. I don't understand why Guillen even went there...:scratch:

Frater Perdurabo
08-18-2010, 10:41 PM
Ozzie is rightfully proud of the 15-3 record against the NL. So what about his record against the Twins, Royals and Indians? You know, the teams we play 18 times each?

As others have mentioned, the Dye reference is completely unrelated. He's not playing right now for anyone. Thome wanted to come back to the Sox and would have accepted the part-time role he's now playing with the Twins. Like it or not, that decision has come back to hurt the Sox.

But the last statement quoted in the story is beyond the pale. I don't want this to get roadhoused, but Ozzie needs to be roadhoused for saying something so incomprehensibly insensitive, immature and stupid.

Ozzie = :dtroll:

Frater Perdurabo
08-18-2010, 10:44 PM
Oh, and Ozzie, it's clear that with you as manager, with the exception of 2005, your teams are mentally weak and crack under pressure during the second half of the season.

Only a rare Twins collapse, a lucky coin flip, and a Thome homer got you into the 2008 playoffs, dude.

Tragg
08-18-2010, 10:47 PM
Guillen's main problem is his ego.
You have a high payroll team, Oz. You're SUPPOSED to be good.
And if you can't take the heat for your inanity re the DH this year (and with the ridiculous personnel choices in prior years), tough. be happy you kept your job.
Guillen can't take the least criticism.
And if you read that article carefully, Guillen is actually BLAMING Thome for the Sox only making the playoffs once during his tenure. It's nutty.

Rocky Soprano
08-18-2010, 10:48 PM
I am beyond sick of Ozzie's mouth.
He was very vocal about not wanting Thome and now he throws a hissy fit because someone calls him out on his crap.

Thome may not be what the Sox needed but he should have kept his mouth shut at the beginning of the year.

The last part of his rant makes no sense.

I won't miss him once he is gone.

MARTINMVP
08-18-2010, 10:59 PM
Nice rant about JD that has nothing to do with anything. Jermaine is out of baseball Oz, Thome is out performing any clown we put in at DH.

No one is talking about Dye because of how poorly he played during the 2nd half of last year.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 10:59 PM
Guillen's main problem is his ego.
You have a high payroll team, Oz. You're SUPPOSED to be good.
And if you can't take the heat for your inanity re the DH this year (and with the ridiculous personnel choices in prior years), tough. be happy you kept your job.
Guillen can't take the least criticism.
And if you read that article carefully, Guillen is actually BLAMING Thome for the Sox only making the playoffs once during his tenure. It's nutty.

Not necessarily. Look at the 2008 Tigers.

WhiteSox5187
08-18-2010, 11:01 PM
Not necessarily. Look at the 2008 Tigers.

Or the Cubs.


But when you spend money, you're supposed to be good. Honestly this team has been better than I thought they would be, they're just not as good as the Twins.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 11:06 PM
Ozzie has gotta go.

PorkChopExpress
08-18-2010, 11:07 PM
Why does everyone just assume that because Thome is performing for the Twins he would be doing the same here. The Twins manage to get the best out of the players they have very often. The Sox don't. If Thome were here, Walker would still be his hitting coach and Ozzie would still be his manager and he wouldn't have gone through srping training with the Twins where he actually acknowledged his surprise at how hard they work at fundamental baseball. He's bought into the Twins way of life, which starts with playing your best against the Sox. I don't think we get the same performance out him this year if he stayed. Just my opinion, though.

Brian26
08-18-2010, 11:10 PM
Why does everyone just assume that because Thome is performing for the Twins he would be doing the same here. The Twins manage to get the best out of the players they have very often. The Sox don't. If Thome were here, Walker would still be his hitting coach and Ozzie would still be his manager and he wouldn't have gone through srping training with the Twins where he actually acknowledged his surprise at how hard they work at fundamental baseball. He's bought into the Twins way of life, which starts with playing your best against the Sox. I don't think we get the same performance out him this year if he stayed. Just my opinion, though.

Thome has close to 600 home runs and is possibly a future HOFer.

We're not talking about Lew Ford or Denny Hocking. I think he'd be hitting in a Sox uniform.

Frontman
08-18-2010, 11:11 PM
Why does everyone just assume that because Thome is performing for the Twins he would be doing the same here. The Twins manage to get the best out of the players they have very often. The Sox don't. If Thome were here, Walker would still be his hitting coach and Ozzie would still be his manager and he wouldn't have gone through srping training with the Twins where he actually acknowledged his surprise at how hard they work at fundamental baseball. He's bought into the Twins way of life, which starts with playing your best against the Sox. I don't think we get the same performance out him this year if he stayed. Just my opinion, though.

In some ways, this is 2006 all over again. There was a LOT of bellyaching that Frank Thomas wasn't brought back, look at how great he's doing for Toronto, etc.

The reason it stings so much is that Thome signed with Minnesota. If he wasn't in the division; there wouldn't be as much talk about him, period.

SBSoxFan
08-18-2010, 11:11 PM
Or the Cubs.


But when you spend money, you're supposed to be good. Honestly this team has been better than I thought they would be, they're just not as good as the Twins.

Until very recently, the Sox were better than the Twins, and it might still pan out that way on October 3 (or whatever day the season ends).

BringHomeDaBacon
08-18-2010, 11:14 PM
Why does everyone just assume that because Thome is performing for the Twins he would be doing the same here. The Twins manage to get the best out of the players they have very often. The Sox don't. If Thome were here, Walker would still be his hitting coach and Ozzie would still be his manager and he wouldn't have gone through srping training with the Twins where he actually acknowledged his surprise at how hard they work at fundamental baseball. He's bought into the Twins way of life, which starts with playing your best against the Sox. I don't think we get the same performance out him this year if he stayed. Just my opinion, though.

Twins play in one of the least HR friendly parks in baseball.

SBSoxFan
08-18-2010, 11:28 PM
Twins play in one of the least HR friendly parks in baseball.

Well, it sure didn't hinder him last night. When's the last time you saw Jim Thome have 3 hits against left-handed pitching? And when's the lasting time you saw Thome turn around a 96 mph fast that was up and in?

Thome's OPS+ declined every year he was with the Sox. Now, with the Twins, his OPS+ is the highest it's been since 2002! I don't know what resurrected him, but it has nothing to do with how his home park plays for home runs.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 11:31 PM
Seven 1 run losses to the Twins this year alone. Could have used a little extra offensive oomph huh? Nah.

Big problem with Ozzie is he says one thing and means/does another. "I don't care what people think about me..." etc etc. Then the next sentence, "Why I get no respect for our record against the national league?"

SBSoxFan
08-18-2010, 11:33 PM
Seven 1 run losses to the Twins this year alone. Could have used a little extra offensive oomph huh? Nah.

Big problem with Ozzie is he says one thing and means/does another. "I don't care what people think about me..." etc etc. Then the next sentence, "Why I get no respect for our record against the national league?"

:scratch: Right, because when you score 6 runs, the offense is obviously a problem.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2010, 11:35 PM
Ozzie certainly couldn't back track at this point in time so I'm not surprised he said what he did, I do disagree with some of the things he said in it though.

I'm sure this issue will be addressed internally at the end of the season.

Bottom line though as a guy who has long advocated a balanced approach on offense, if you don't have the players it doesn't matter what style you play, "home run or nothing," "Ozzie-ball," or anything in between.

Lip

spongyfungy
08-18-2010, 11:36 PM
Ozzie is just stubborn and can't admit his error. It's he who is overvaluing speed and "versatility" with this rotating dh when power and patience is SO much better.

Kenny tried Ozzie's way and it's biting them in the butt. At least Kenny is admitting the mistake and trying to get a big bopper in here somehow. Ozzie's comment about not wanting Manny was one of the dumbest I've heard. Pinning the losing seasons on Thome surpasses that.

Yeah Ozzie is sticking his neck for his guys and that all they have to do is "perform" and that may be admirable but I hate Ozzie's arrogant attitude.

There is NO doubt that Ozzie would be singing Thome's praises if he was on this team.

JB98
08-18-2010, 11:51 PM
Well, it sure didn't hinder him last night. When's the last time you saw Jim Thome have 3 hits against left-handed pitching? And when's the lasting time you saw Thome turn around a 96 mph fast that was up and in?

Thome's OPS+ declined every year he was with the Sox. Now, with the Twins, his OPS+ is the highest it's been since 2002! I don't know what resurrected him, but it has nothing to do with how his home park plays for home runs.

He's being played in a part-time capacity. His balky back is less likely to act up if he doesn't play everyday....

fram40
08-19-2010, 12:01 AM
And when's the lasting time you saw Thome turn around a 96 mph fast that was up and in?



Don't know but it certainly wasn't last night. That was a meatball out over the plate that any half-assed major leaguer would have turned around. Maybe not to the concourse, of course.

russ99
08-19-2010, 12:19 AM
He's being played in a part-time capacity. His balky back is less likely to act up if he doesn't play everyday....

Yup. And do you think anyone here much less the press would sit still with Thome resting here as much as he has with the Twins, given the same failures by other DH candidates? I dont.

I still agree with the decision, and the concept of rotating DHs but what I don't agree with is what Kenny gave us as the replacements, Jones, Kotsay, Nix - all bargain basement bench players, cause all he had was 50 cents.

soxinem1
08-19-2010, 08:13 AM
Let's be real here -- how much faster than Jim Thome is Mark Kotsay?

The bigger question is Ozzie's claim about Thome having problems going first to third.

True, Big Jim is not the most mobile of characters, but don't you have to reach first in order to have chance to make it to third?:scratch:

In fact, in far fewer AB's, Thome has scored more runs than Kotsay.

Last I checked, you can't steal first base!!!

twsoxfan5
08-19-2010, 10:25 AM
I like Jim Thome as a guy, but I hate him as a player at this stage in his career. The Twins are not doing as well as they are because of him and we are not doing as poorly as we are because we don't have him.

This team got really hot when the pitchers where pitching out of their minds and the offense finally got it together. Now the starters are not doing as well and the bullpen has struggled so this team is losing games. Both games against the Twins so far have been 7-6 losses. So that shows you a lack of pitching not hitting. If Morneau was healthy Thome would barely be playing and if he was on our team he would be striking out and doing his little I thought I got walked wait oh now I struck out bat flip.

I understand that he is better than Kotsay/Jones at this point but I don't think he was the answer and I am glad he was not picked back up in the offseason.

nccwsfan
08-19-2010, 10:43 AM
:scratch: Right, because when you score 6 runs, the offense is obviously a problem.

Is there a way for someone to break down the team batting average and team ERA has been broken down over three periods:

* Opening Day through June 8th
* June 9th through August 5th
* August 6th through last night

The hitting didn't click in April and May, but since 6/9 for the most part they've done their job. This teams fortunes have risen and fallen with the pitching, more specifically the starting pitching. If this team had been pitching to the level we think they should (since 8/5) it would be a far different scenario right now. I'm not giving the lineup a pass, but hitting isn't the primary problem.

Law11
08-19-2010, 10:47 AM
Ozzie can kiss it.. Im sick of his act. Talk about a dysfunctional family.
Jerry has two sons in Kenny and Ozzie that both need the belt..

Iwritecode
08-19-2010, 10:57 AM
I would have rathered he not brought Thome into this and just started cursing out the Twins and their form of chicken **** baseball.

I was hoping that's what his rant would be about.

Ozzie is rightfully proud of the 15-3 record against the NL. So what about his record against the Twins, Royals and Indians? You know, the teams we play 18 times each?

Exactly. Their record against NL teams in 2006 (the first year Thome joined the Sox) was 14-4. It's not impossible to win against NL teams when you have a pure DH on your team.

dickallen15
08-19-2010, 10:57 AM
In some ways, this is 2006 all over again. There was a LOT of bellyaching that Frank Thomas wasn't brought back, look at how great he's doing for Toronto, etc.

The reason it stings so much is that Thome signed with Minnesota. If he wasn't in the division; there wouldn't be as much talk about him, period.

Check out Thome's numbers his last 650 plate appearances, something Adam Dunn gets every year. There numbers are eerily similar, in fact, Thome may have an edge. Obviously Dunn runs a bit better and you can throw him out in the field although not very well, and Thome isn't going to be able to play everyday at this point, but he's well worth $1.5 million and for a team starved for a LH bat, it was an error not bringing him in, especially considering they failed bringing in any better alternative.

soxinem1
08-19-2010, 11:50 AM
I like Jim Thome as a guy, but I hate him as a player at this stage in his career. The Twins are not doing as well as they are because of him and we are not doing as poorly as we are because we don't have him.

This team got really hot when the pitchers where pitching out of their minds and the offense finally got it together. Now the starters are not doing as well and the bullpen has struggled so this team is losing games. Both games against the Twins so far have been 7-6 losses. So that shows you a lack of pitching not hitting. If Morneau was healthy Thome would barely be playing and if he was on our team he would be striking out and doing his little I thought I got walked wait oh now I struck out bat flip.

I understand that he is better than Kotsay/Jones at this point but I don't think he was the answer and I am glad he was not picked back up in the offseason.


Hence the question of depth.

Why on earth would you start the season with the weak bench that we did, knowing full well that:

1. Injuries are likely.

2. Off-years and guys performing less than expected are likely.

Yet, we start the year off with the thin bench and 'Rotate a DH' concept with other regular players.

Do you meant to tell me that Thome having about 220 AB's at this point of the season for US would have been a bad thing?

MIN is winning because they have the depth and they trust the guys they bring up. Only they can bring up these guys like Valencia and Repko and have them hit .320-.350 while the injured players get healthy. Span was brought up in a similar fashion a few years ago and became a regular as a result.

In other words, when the chips are down, hate them as we do, the Twins tell their players that when they get brought up they will be thrown right into the mix, not the Ozzie way of giving you 2-3 games a week to play, then complaining about someone not getting the job done.

Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and scores of others were brought up, played, and developed. They stood by them with their struggles and now they are bonified major leaguers.

Here, you get about 13 AB's for a trial and even if you do get a few hits, if some veteran is on the team you better be prepared to watch him hit..... from the dugout.

No way should Viciedo have been brought up here to sit. He is not only being paid more than any other rookie hitter (for two years now), but they need to see what he could do as a REGULAR, not getting 8-10 AB's a week and complaining he does not draw walks (like KW and Ozzie were OBP machines when they played).

Why didn't he just get put in the lineup as a DH/3B to get the AB's?

Eddie Murray broke in as a DH even though he was a GG caliber fielder, and if these players understood how fortunate they are to be in MLB, maybe they would understand that DH'ing once in awhile is a good thing.

Maybe when KW was filming 'The Club' he should have specified: 'You do what we tell you, play the game right, and make the most of your opportunity when you get it. And when you show us you are ready for that opportunity, we will give it to you.'

Yet Ozzie's Opening Day DH is still sent out there being as unproductive as ever.

The deal with Viciedo is just another in a long-running episode of Ozzie's non-existent skills in developing ball players.

twsoxfan5
08-19-2010, 12:00 PM
Hence the question of depth.

Why on earth would you start the season with the weak bench that we did, knowing full well that:

1. Injuries are likely.

2. Off-years and guys performing less than expected are likely.

Yet, we start the year off with the thin bench and 'Rotate a DH' concept with other regular players.

Do you meant to tell me that Thome having about 220 AB's at this point of the season for US would have been a bad thing?

MIN is winning because they have the depth and they trust the guys they bring up. Only they can bring up these guys like Valencia and Repko and have them hit .320-.350 while the injured players get healthy. Span was brought up in a similar fashion a few years ago and became a regular as a result.

In other words, when the chips are down, hate them as we do, the Twins tell their players that when they get brought up they will be thrown right into the mix, not the Ozzie way of giving you 2-3 games a week to play, then complaining about someone not getting the job done.

Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and scores of others were brought up, played, and developed. They stood by them with their struggles and now they are bonified major leaguers.

Here, you get about 13 AB's for a trial and even if you do get a few hits, if some veteran is on the team you better be prepared to watch him hit..... from the dugout.

No way should Viciedo have been brought up here to sit. He is not only being paid more than any other rookie hitter (for two years now), but they need to see what he could do as a REGULAR, not getting 8-10 AB's a week and complaining he does not draw walks (like KW and Ozzie were OBP machines when they played).

Why didn't he just get put in the lineup as a DH/3B to get the AB's?

Eddie Murray broke in as a DH even though he was a GG caliber fielder, and if these players understood how fortunate they are to be in MLB, maybe they would understand that DH'ing once in awhile is a good thing.

Maybe when KW was filming 'The Club' he should have specified: 'You do what we tell you, play the game right, and make the most of your opportunity when you get it. And when you show us you are ready for that opportunity, we will give it to you.'

Yet Ozzie's Opening Day DH is still sent out there being as unproductive as ever.

The deal with Viciedo is just another in a long-running episode of Ozzie's non-existent skills in developing ball players.

Although I'm sure you worked very hard on this post it is simply requires too much reading for me. One thing you did ask early on was if I thought having Thome's 220 ABs at this point would have hurt the Sox. My answer would be; no I don't think it would have hurt us. Although I am also not sure how much better he makes this team. My point is that IMO not having Thome is not the reason this team is not as successful as we would like.

russ99
08-19-2010, 12:04 PM
In other words, when the chips are down, hate them as we do, the Twins tell their players that when they get brought up they will be thrown right into the mix, not the Ozzie way of giving you 2-3 games a week to play, then complaining about someone not getting the job done.

Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and scores of others were brought up, played, and developed. They stood by them with their struggles and now they are bonified major leaguers.

Here, you get about 13 AB's for a trial and even if you do get a few hits, if some veteran is on the team you better be prepared to watch him hit..... from the dugout.

This is apples and oranges. Morneau was a highly touted prospect, Kubel and Span were also pretty close to the top.

Viciedo is simply not to the same level.

The last two guys the Sox had with similar top prospect status to the Twins mentioned were Borchard and Anderson, so I can understand why Ozzie and Kenny are a bit gunshy.

The other part of your argument is also selective reasoning. Ozzie's done a yeoman job with Beckham both this year and last year, giving him playing time and letting him work through his problems, and develop into a quality big league player.

Truth is Viciedo isn't ready, he's 2 years out of Cuba and still raw. Similarly, Yunesky Betancourt and Kendry Morales took 3-4 years to be able to handle a big league workload.

Your supposed claim that Ozzie has no patience with near-ready, quality prospects just isn't true, this is more about finding someone, anyone to replace Kotsay.

soxinem1
08-19-2010, 12:06 PM
Although I'm sure you worked very hard on this post it is simply requires too much reading for me. One thing you did ask early on was if I thought having Thome's 220 ABs at this point would have hurt the Sox. My answer would be; no I don't think it would have hurt us. Although I am also not sure how much better he makes this team. My point is that IMO not having Thome is not the reason this team is not as successful as we would like.

We'd have at least 3-4 more wins with Thome in the lineup, despite the April/May struggles.

What he would have added just as protection (ie., seeing him swing the stick in the on-deck circle) would have been more than 'The Fear Of God' Teahen and Kotsay provide to opposing pitchers.

soxinem1
08-19-2010, 12:09 PM
Your supposed claim that Ozzie has no patience with near-ready, quality prospects just isn't true, this is more about finding someone, anyone to replace Kotday.

Honestly, Thome, Viciedo, or even Andruw Jones would strike more fear in pitchers than Kotsay or Teahen.

Ozzie could have had at least an 80-100 game DH, but he chose not to.

Jollyroger2
08-19-2010, 12:15 PM
Honestly, Thome, Viciedo, or even Andruw Jones would strike more fear in pitchers than Kotsay or Teahen.

Ozzie could have had at least an 80-100 game DH, but he chose not to.

This.

Gotta love Ozzie finally speaking up and blowing up. Of course it's not against himself, or his gutless team, but his "critics." Well guess what Oz, there are going to be critics when you can't beat anybody that matters and your team plays like crap again down the stretch. Keep pulling out the 2005 banner all you want, each day that passes that title gets further and further in the past.

Way to go patting yourself on the back Oz for all those great Thome-less wins vs. the NL. Never mind the fact a junior high softball team could probably do well vs. most of the NL trash the Sox beat.

Thanks though for actually showing you have a pulse. Too bad you aren't directing it where it needs to be. Keep being a sideshow while we watch your team get pasted again tonight.

twsoxfan5
08-19-2010, 12:15 PM
We'd have at least 3-4 more wins with Thome in the lineup, despite the April/May struggles.

You are out of your mind. Where does that number even come from? There is no way to predict what his level of production would have been here. No one on the team was hitting and you're saying that inserting Thome into the line-up gives that team 3 or 4 more wins.

Dan H
08-19-2010, 12:29 PM
First, attacking the fans is always a losing proposition, even more so when the team is playing badly.

Secondly, this rant is sending out a bad message. When the Sox stunk it up during the first part of the year, Ozzie kept telling us how he liked his team. Now when the team hits another bad streak, he goes off. Does this mean he knows it's all over?

AngryCollins
08-19-2010, 12:32 PM
To be fair, he was right about the fans.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 12:37 PM
In some ways, this is 2006 all over again. There was a LOT of bellyaching that Frank Thomas wasn't brought back, look at how great he's doing for Toronto, etc.

The reason it stings so much is that Thome signed with Minnesota. If he wasn't in the division; there wouldn't be as much talk about him, period.


I disagree. Yes the Minnesota situation makes it worse, but the DH problem is the #1 issue here. Him not going to Minnesota, would still leave us like we are today in a crappy position.

People are talking because the DH situation has stunk the entire year, PERIOD.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 12:37 PM
To be fair, he was right about the fans.


Right about what?

russ99
08-19-2010, 12:52 PM
This.

Gotta love Ozzie finally speaking up and blowing up. Of course it's not against himself, or his gutless team, but his "critics." Well guess what Oz, there are going to be critics when you can't beat anybody that matters and your team plays like crap again down the stretch. Keep pulling out the 2005 banner all you want, each day that passes that title gets further and further in the past.

Way to go patting yourself on the back Oz for all those great Thome-less wins vs. the NL. Never mind the fact a junior high softball team could probably do well vs. most of the NL trash the Sox beat.

Thanks though for actually showing you have a pulse. Too bad you aren't directing it where it needs to be. Keep being a sideshow while we watch your team get pasted again tonight.

Being a sideshow - that's the whole point of any Ozzie tirade. I don't like the venom about the fans, but I understand it.

Today's fans suck. Instead of relaxing, watching the game and having good natured conversations/monday morning QBing/bar bets, they whine, complain, and point fingers about any thing that's considered remotely off-scope or doesn't mesh with the way they assume things should be done, and they do it constantly.

This was a calculated move, solely to take pressure of his players. Would think you'd all realize this by now, he's only been doing it for 7 years.

shingo10
08-19-2010, 01:01 PM
Being a sideshow - that's the whole point of any Ozzie tirade. I don't like the venom about the fans, but I understand it.

Today's fans suck. Instead of relaxing, watching the game and having good natured conversations/monday morning QBing/bar bets, they whine, complain, and point fingers about any thing that's considered remotely off-scope or doesn't mesh with the way they assume things should be done, and they do it constantly.

This was a calculated move, solely to take pressure of his players. Would think you'd all realize this by now, he's only been doing it for 7 years.


Kind of agree with basically everything in this post. It doesn't seem to matter what the Sox do or don't do in regards to personnel moves, they are going to take a beating for it. Ozzie is once again putting the heat on himself which might be misguided but he's trying to help his team. Nothing wrong with that.

soxinem1
08-19-2010, 01:01 PM
You are out of your mind. Where does that number even come from? There is no way to predict what his level of production would have been here. No one on the team was hitting and you're saying that inserting Thome into the line-up gives that team 3 or 4 more wins.

Really?

I'll rephrase then.

Insert a REAL HITTER in the DH spot and we have 3-4 more wins.

How many runs were stranded when the 28 RBI DH came up and couldn't get anyone in?

How many times was Konerko pitched around to get to Kotsay?

If you believe for one second that Thome or any other real hitter in the DH role has not cost us at least three wins then you are:

1. Watching a different team.

2. Ozzie Guillen

3. Mark Kotsay.

gogosox675
08-19-2010, 01:04 PM
This week has been tough to watch. It's bad enough to have the Twins beat us every night, the last thing anyone needed was for Ozzie to go on another rant.

Domeshot17
08-19-2010, 01:05 PM
Being a sideshow - that's the whole point of any Ozzie tirade. I don't like the venom about the fans, but I understand it.

Today's fans suck. Instead of relaxing, watching the game and having good natured conversations/monday morning QBing/bar bets, they whine, complain, and point fingers about any thing that's considered remotely off-scope or doesn't mesh with the way they assume things should be done, and they do it constantly.

This was a calculated move, solely to take pressure of his players. Would think you'd all realize this by now, he's only been doing it for 7 years.

Maybe one of these days it'll work.....

This wasn't his timed blow up, this was his thin skin. We have seen this before.

I think Ozzie doesn't realize that when the manager shows weakness and cracks under pressure, it rubs on the players. When is the last time Gardenhire, Torre, Francona, Girardi, Leyland, Scossia etc. went on a wild media tangent? When is the last time they martyred themself at the expense of the fans.

Since 2007 (and the home stretch of 2006), Ozzie has pretty much brought a losers mentality to these teams. Maybe he needs a new approach, because these tired and inefficient motivational tactics are no longer relevant.

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 01:08 PM
Being a sideshow - that's the whole point of any Ozzie tirade. I don't like the venom about the fans, but I understand it.

Today's fans suck. Instead of relaxing, watching the game and having good natured conversations/monday morning QBing/bar bets, they whine, complain, and point fingers about any thing that's considered remotely off-scope or doesn't mesh with the way they assume things should be done, and they do it constantly.

This was a calculated move, solely to take pressure of his players. Would think you'd all realize this by now, he's only been doing it for 7 years.

So when does that stuff start working?

FielderJones
08-19-2010, 01:23 PM
So when does that stuff start working?

June-July 2010.

spiffie
08-19-2010, 01:31 PM
Being a sideshow - that's the whole point of any Ozzie tirade. I don't like the venom about the fans, but I understand it.

Today's fans suck. Instead of relaxing, watching the game and having good natured conversations/monday morning QBing/bar bets, they whine, complain, and point fingers about any thing that's considered remotely off-scope or doesn't mesh with the way they assume things should be done, and they do it constantly.

This was a calculated move, solely to take pressure of his players. Would think you'd all realize this by now, he's only been doing it for 7 years.
Bingo!

This sort of thing, the genius moves that allow Ozzie to pull the spotlight to him time and time again at moments when his team needs time to regroup out of the media glare, is why he is the best manager in the game. He knows all he has to do is push the buttons of the media to get everyone back on the "Oh Ozzie is so crazy!" bandwagon, and all the while his team, feeling bruised and battered, has time to lick their wounds and get ready to fight their way back to the top. And it starts TONIGHT!

Domeshot17
08-19-2010, 01:32 PM
June-July 2010.

To give you an idea of how much we have cooled off..

We made up..what, 10-12 games on the Twins to take over first (thinking also of the 3 game lead we had). We have then given back something like 8 of them. Winning means nothing if you can't sustain it. That is what seperates winners from those go on a hot streak.

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 01:32 PM
June-July 2010.

I'm sorry, but this whole idea of Ozzie being a jerk to the media to make his team go on a winning streak is insane. I don't think they have any correlation, and the thought of the "oh so fragile minds of the players" needing their manager to look like an idiot so no one gets on their back for underperforming is an embarrassing thought.

spiffie
08-19-2010, 01:32 PM
So when does that stuff start working?

How soon we forget 2005.

shingo10
08-19-2010, 01:33 PM
From Ozzie's point of view everyone gave up on this team in May only to come back to them in July and give up on them again this past week. I can understand his frustration. It's never been "Oh hey the Sox really showed a lot of heart and turned this thing around." It's been "The Sox should have gotten a bat, they shouldn't have let Thome go, ect..."

Meanwhile, the only cure is winning. And the Sox need to start doing that again. Get back within 2 games and people can start focusing on the games again.

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 01:34 PM
Bingo!

This sort of thing, the genius moves that allow Ozzie to pull the spotlight to him time and time again at moments when his team needs time to regroup out of the media glare, is why he is the best manager in the game. He knows all he has to do is push the buttons of the media to get everyone back on the "Oh Ozzie is so crazy!" bandwagon, and all the while his team, feeling bruised and battered, has time to lick their wounds and get ready to fight their way back to the top. And it starts TONIGHT!

Why didn't it start yesterday? All eyes were on him.

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 01:35 PM
How soon we forget 2005.

I'd love to see it somehow be proven that his media vomit correlates with winning.

spiffie
08-19-2010, 01:38 PM
Why didn't it start yesterday? All eyes were on him.

Amazingly even a great manager, which Ozzie is, will sometimes lose games. That's why no one ever talks about chasing the 162-0 mark of some previous great team.

guillensdisciple
08-19-2010, 01:42 PM
Why didn't it start yesterday? All eyes were on him.


He's doing what he has to, team has come back and has battled. He can't control when his pitching has decided to lay an egg for the past couple of weeks. It's downright shameful how they have performed. This line up has battled.

Nelfox02
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
I'd love to see it somehow be proven that his media vomit correlates with winning.


I dont think it does....

If the Sox go on to finish somewhere 5-10 games above .500 but never really back in this thing, no better than 3 games out the rest of the way....I am very curious to see if Ozzie is still managing this team next year.

I think he will be tho....

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 01:45 PM
He's doing what he has to, team has come back and has battled. He can't control when his pitching has decided to lay an egg for the past couple of weeks. It's downright shameful how they have performed. This line up has battled.

So pitching doesn't fall into his "taking heat off the team" rants? They are just for the hitters? Poor pitching getting shafted there.

Maybe he should rant about Bartolo Colon so the pitchers are in on it too.

ewokpelts
08-19-2010, 01:49 PM
bye ozzie. dont let the door hit your ass on the way out

guillensdisciple
08-19-2010, 01:53 PM
So pitching doesn't fall into his "taking heat off the team" rants? They are just for the hitters? Poor pitching getting shafted there.

Maybe he should rant about Bartolo Colon so the pitchers are in on it too.


I guess it does, but you have to realize that pitcing is so much more different in terms of mental approach than hitting is. Pitchers have to make sure that they're mentally right, individually- whereas hitters can get away with hearing a motivational speech because they don't have to stand there for 6 or 7 innings trying to figure out an entire hitting line-up. It's just them against the pitcher. Much less to overcome, and a little mental edge can go a long way. As a pitcher, you are much more alone than anyone can really help you with.

I don't know, I could just be talking out of my ass:redface:

Coops4Aces
08-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Amazingly even a great manager, which Ozzie is, will sometimes lose games. That's why no one ever talks about chasing the 162-0 mark of some previous great team.

:rolling::rolling:

Great managers know how to use a bullpen. Great managers know when to bunt and more importantly, when not to. Great managers don't tell the fans to **** off.

Ozzie is a clown. The only thing I'm more tired of than Ozzie is everyone who thinks he can do no wrong even when he does something incredibly stupid.

Nellie_Fox
08-19-2010, 01:57 PM
:rolling::rolling:

Great managers know how to use a bullpen. Great managers know when to bunt and more importantly, when not to. Great managers don't tell the fans to **** off.

Ozzie is a clown. The only thing I'm more tired of than Ozzie is everyone who thinks he can do no wrong even when he does something incredibly stupid.Yeah, because those are the only two options. Either he's a clown who doesn't know how to manage, or he can do no wrong. There's nothing in between. I love the internet.

jdm2662
08-19-2010, 02:01 PM
Spiffie! We missed you. :D:

All, if you really think he's serious, you don't know him like me. :D:

Coops4Aces
08-19-2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, because those are the only two options. Either he's a clown who doesn't know how to manage, or he can do no wrong. There's nothing in between. I love the internet.
Being a clown =/= being a bad manager

Actually, they have nothing to do with each other.

Is Ozzie a clown? Absolutely

People can put words in my mouth. I love the internet.

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 02:05 PM
And just to clarify my stance on Ozzie - I don't care if they fire him or not, but the idea that he takes heat off the team doesn't work with me. It's stupid of him to say this stuff, and it's stupid if he thinks it actually works.

TheOldRoman
08-19-2010, 02:09 PM
I dont think it does....

If the Sox go on to finish somewhere 5-10 games above .500 but never really back in this thing, no better than 3 games out the rest of the way....I am very curious to see if Ozzie is still managing this team next year.

I think he will be tho....He 100% will be, and that is frustrating. If the Sox fail to win this and basically forfeit another division title to the Twins, something needs to change. It would be two third place, one fourth place, one second place finish and one division title since the world series. This Twins team is better offensively than past ones but the pitching is garbage. The Sox should win this division.

Someone needs to fall on the sword for this season if in fact the Sox do collapse and not win the division. The accepting horrible starts and hitters "trying too hard" in April, May and then again in August are bad enough, but him aiding the team's fear of and horrible performance against the Twins is reason enough. The Sox' record against the Twins this year is 4 and 10. That is unacceptable against any team. Him kissing the Twins' asses, whining about the dome, then not making his pitchers retaliate against the Twins is bull****. And the Sox horrible record against the Twins overshadows that the Twins are not a very good team. I am sick of watching the Sox piss down their legs against the big bad Twins and then watching such a "great" Twins team get completely pantsed in the playoffs. Something drastic needs to change if this team fails.

doublem23
08-19-2010, 02:26 PM
Today's fans suck. Instead of relaxing, watching the game and having good natured conversations/monday morning QBing/bar bets, they whine, complain, and point fingers about any thing that's considered remotely off-scope or doesn't mesh with the way they assume things should be done, and they do it constantly.

That's becuase today's fans are getting gouged to the tune of easily over $100 for a family of four to go to the game, let alone having to park there and god forbid someone want a hot dog or a soda.

I don't see Gardenhire having to start wars with Twins fans to get his team to play, and they've buried the Sox this past month. At the All-Star Break, we were 3 1/5 games up on them. Less than 5 weeks later, we're 5 games back, basically in a do-or-die game tonight. If we lose, you can close the coffin on the 2010 Sox.

A. Cavatica
08-19-2010, 08:03 PM
June-July 2010.

It wasn't an Ozzie tirade that coincided with the start of the winning streak, it was a Kenny tirade.

A. Cavatica
08-19-2010, 08:04 PM
Yeah, because those are the only two options. Either he's a clown who doesn't know how to manage, or he can do no wrong. There's nothing in between. I love the internet.

There's lots in between. He's a mixed bag as a manager, and he is most definitely a clown.

TornLabrum
08-20-2010, 01:21 AM
There's lots in between. He's a mixed bag as a manager, and he is most definitely a clown.

Nellie's point is that it's pretty hard to tell that reading the Ozzie threads here.