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BadBobbyJenks
08-18-2010, 04:32 PM
So I am still seeing people defend the Thome/Kotsay decision due to position flexibility, versatility however you want to jazz it up. I decided to take a gander at the American League.

First a comparison between the Twins and the White Sox DH production.
Twin DH: OBP .366, SLG- .474, OPS - .839, 80 ribbies
Sox DH: OBP .311, SLG- .411, OPS - .719, 51 ribbies

Now let's breakdown how each team uses their DH:

Central:
Twins: Thome/Kubel split time at the DH, nothing to do with position flexibility here, just Thome's age and getting production from an offensive position.

Tigers: Damon sucks in the field, but still can hit therefore he is the DH.

Indians: Hafner provides no position flexibility, just a stick for the middle of the order.

Royals: Jose Guillen played 84/110 games as the DH. I mention this because I assumed they were in a rotation. Again Royals using a good hitter to DH.

East:
Boston: See Hafner, Travis

Yankees: Have rotated it around the field, but this is a product of having unlimited resources and they do this as a luxury.

Rays: Aybar and Burrell platoon before the trade.

Toronto: Adam Lind full time DH

Baltimore: Luke Scott full time DH

West:
Texas: Vlad Guerrero full time DH

Angels: Matsui full time DH

A's: Cust is the DH because his asset is you guess it, HIS BAT!

Mariners: Has been a rotation, but I will argue this is because this is one of the truly terrible offenses ever assembled for a team that was supposed to contend.

So the Yankees are the only other team that have used the DH as position flexibility and that is because they can afford all the offensive talent they desire. The American League is not becoming a league where the DH is used for flexibility, it is used as a spot to get offensive production plain and simple.

The White Sox made a mistake. If you want to argue that they thought Thome didn't have anything left, I will listen (though they were wrong) but the idea of the DH becoming a tool for position flexibility is absurd.

We got it wrong and it may cost us a chance at the playoffs.

Iwritecode
08-18-2010, 04:39 PM
I actually read a quote from Ozzie that said that he wants flexibility because he was worried about not having a DH when they play the NL teams.

So he's actually worried about losing production for less than 10% of the games they play.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-18-2010, 04:45 PM
The irony is that Thome actually provided Gardenhire all the "flexibility" he needed. Thome provided an extra big bat so that when the Twins lost a bat in Morneau, all they had to do was start using Thome more often at DH. Kubel to the OF, Cuddyer to 1b and all of a sudden they've replaced Morneau with Thome without Thome actually having to play a position.

russ99
08-18-2010, 04:58 PM
We got it wrong and it may cost us a chance at the playoffs.

This is overreaching at the highest level.

If we miss the playoffs, I'd think the actual reason was 2 months of awful play, Peavy's injury disrupting the rotation, bullpen implosions, many nagging injuries sapping production.

All which are much more significant than the small difference between the Sox and the Twins' DH numbers.

But hey, if you really feel the need to blame Ozzie all the time, have fun with that.

TornLabrum
08-18-2010, 05:04 PM
I actually read a quote from Ozzie that said that he wants flexibility because he was worried about not having a DH when they play the NL teams.

So he's actually worried about losing production for less than 10% of the games they play.

But they DID beat up on the NL.

Crestani
08-18-2010, 05:06 PM
So I am still seeing people defend the Thome/Kotsay decision due to position flexibility, versatility however you want to jazz it up. I decided to take a gander at the American League.

First a comparison between the Twins and the White Sox DH production.
Twin DH: OBP .366, SLG- .474, OPS - .839, 80 ribbies
Sox DH: OBP .311, SLG- .411, OPS - .719, 51 ribbies

Now let's breakdown how each team uses their DH:

Central:
Twins: Thome/Kubel split time at the DH, nothing to do with position flexibility here, just Thome's age and getting production from an offensive position.


Tigers: Damon sucks in the field, but still can hit therefore he is the DH.

Indians: Hafner provides no position flexibility, just a stick for the middle of the order.

Royals: Jose Guillen played 84/110 games as the DH. I mention this because I assumed they were in a rotation. Again Royals using a good hitter to DH.

East:
Boston: See Hafner, Travis

Yankees: Have rotated it around the field, but this is a product of having unlimited resources and they do this as a luxury.

Rays: Aybar and Burrell platoon before the trade.

Toronto: Adam Lind full time DH

Baltimore: Luke Scott full time DH

West:
Texas: Vlad Guerrero full time DH

Angels: Matsui full time DH

A's: Cust is the DH because his asset is you guess it, HIS BAT!

Mariners: Has been a rotation, but I will argue this is because this is one of the truly terrible offenses ever assembled for a team that was supposed to contend.

So the Yankees are the only other team that have used the DH as position flexibility and that is because they can afford all the offensive talent they desire. The American League is not becoming a league where the DH is used for flexibility, it is used as a spot to get offensive production plain and simple.

The White Sox made a mistake. If you want to argue that they thought Thome didn't have anything left, I will listen (though they were wrong) but the idea of the DH becoming a tool for position flexibility is absurd.

We got it wrong and it may cost us a chance at the playoffs.

Yeah our last three losses were caused by the ineptness of our DH's..!!

BadBobbyJenks
08-18-2010, 05:20 PM
Yeah our last three losses were caused by the ineptness of our DH's..!!



Valuable contribution.

BadBobbyJenks
08-18-2010, 05:23 PM
This is overreaching at the highest level.

If we miss the playoffs, I'd think the actual reason was 2 months of awful play, Peavy's injury disrupting the rotation, bullpen implosions, many nagging injuries sapping production.

I'd argue not having a legitimate DH was a big part of being awful for 2 months.

All which are much more significant than the small difference between the Sox and the Twins' DH numbers.

Those numbers are a small difference? Really?

But hey, if you really feel the need to blame Ozzie all the time, have fun with that.

I don't think I even mentioned Ozzie in my post did I?

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 05:23 PM
This is overreaching at the highest level.

If we miss the playoffs, I'd think the actual reason was 2 months of awful play, Peavy's injury disrupting the rotation, bullpen implosions, many nagging injuries sapping production.

All which are much more significant than the small difference between the Sox and the Twins' DH numbers.

But hey, if you really feel the need to blame Ozzie all the time, have fun with that.
For once I actually agree with you, although I still think it doesn't excuse Kenny and Ozzie from going with a rotating DH. A lack of a proper DH is one of the many problems this team has, and is not the sole reason we won't make the playoffs. Kenny did his best with limited resources to put together an overall nice team, but unfortunately several individual pieces (Pierre, Pena, Peavy) just simply did not do as expected and are dragging this team down. It just hurts to get our ass handed by the guy we could've had for cheap at one of our least productive positions right now. Even with Thome, this team wasn't going to be much better. We need to blow this team up from the top and bottom, and start building it properly. Kenny just keeps mending holes with inferior parts and it hasn't gotten us much far.

Yeah our last three losses were caused by the ineptness of our DH's..!!


:tealpolice:
Argh, my eyes, my eyes!

Crestani
08-18-2010, 05:31 PM
For once I actually agree with you, although I still think it doesn't excuse Kenny and Ozzie from going with a rotating DH. A lack of a proper DH is one of the many problems this team has, and is not the sole reason we won't make the playoffs. Kenny did his best with limited resources to put together an overall nice team, but unfortunately several individual pieces (Pierre, Pena, Peavy) just simply did not do as expected and are dragging this team down. It just hurts to get our ass handed by the guy we could've had for cheap at one of our least productive positions right now. Even with Thome, this team wasn't going to be much better. We need to blow this team up from the top and bottom, and start building it properly. Kenny just keeps mending holes with inferior parts and it hasn't gotten us much far.


:tealpolice:
Argh, my eyes, my eyes!

Wow..Did I really screw that up!

Crestani
08-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Valuable contribution.


Thanks...I thought so.

This is a dead horse and shouldn't be ridden anymore IMO..!!

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Wow..Did I really screw that up!
Sorry I just wanted to use that thing for such a long time :tongue: The colour did hurt my eyes though.

Crestani
08-18-2010, 05:41 PM
Sorry I just wanted to use that thing for such a long time :tongue: The colour did hurt my eyes though.


I am truly color blind...suffice it to say I will not use that any longer!

Iwritecode
08-19-2010, 10:00 AM
But they DID beat up on the NL.

They do more often than not no matter who their DH is.

2008 & 2009 they were 12-6 overall.
2007 they were 4-14 but they couldn't beat anyone that year.
2006 they were 14-4.

Take out the 2007 season and they've been 38-16 overall the past 4 seasons. I think Ozzie is trying to fix something that's not really broken.

twsoxfan5
08-19-2010, 11:11 AM
This is overreaching at the highest level.

If we miss the playoffs, I'd think the actual reason was 2 months of awful play, Peavy's injury disrupting the rotation, bullpen implosions, many nagging injuries sapping production.

All which are much more significant than the small difference between the Sox and the Twins' DH numbers.

Yep, couldn't agree more. Not having an established DH was mistake, but it is one of the many reasons that this team is not succeeding and not the main reason at all.

DirtySox
08-19-2010, 11:19 AM
Blaming the bullpen for the reason we aren't in 1st is one of the most laughable assertions yet.

The bullpen over the course of the season is one of the primary reasons the Sox are contending in this ****ty division. They have been great over the year up until recently. The offense has been average at best, and having a legitimate DH for the entire year would have put this team in a much better position to succeed. The bullpen has been an asset, the DH a detriment. It's glaringly obvious where the hole on this team is.

nccwsfan
08-19-2010, 11:37 AM
Blaming the bullpen for the reason we aren't in 1st is one of the most laughable assertions yet.

The bullpen over the course of the season is one of the primary reasons the Sox are contending in this ****ty division. They have been great over the year up until recently. The offense has been average at best, and having a legitimate DH for the entire year would have put this team in a much better position to succeed. The bullpen has been an asset, the DH a detriment. It's glaringly obvious where the hole on this team is.

The offense since 6/8 has been above average, and apart from Baltimore they have put the team in a position to win games during the current slide. The pitching is what's killing this team right now, and if you look at it the fall/rise/fall of this team can be directly tied to the performance of the starting rotation. Add the recent bullpen woes and you have a team that is pitching itself out of the race.

Would the team be better off with a full time DH? Probably. Is not having a full time DH the reason this team is where they are? More than likely not.

spiffie
08-19-2010, 12:35 PM
I see a lot of numbers that add up to nothing in the OP.

Ozzie had a plan, and so far that plan has meant we're in the thick of the division in late August. I'd say that proves his point more than any numbers some stat geek wants to spout.

jdm2662
08-19-2010, 01:09 PM
While I agree the DH situation isn't ideal, here is what I know.

In the last two games against the first place team, the Sox started their two best starters.

In the past three games, the Sox scored 8, 6, and 6 runs.

In the past 3 of the past 4 games, the Sox had a lead late in each game and had a lead going into the bottom of the 5th.

They lost all four of those games.

In April and May, I remember the Sox hitting poorly, but Mark, Peavy, and Floyd wasn't exactly lighting up the world, either. I also remember shoddy defense, and Jenks wasn't too good, either.

In June and July, the Sox pitched, hit, and fielded very well. They were 20 games over .500 during that span. Jenks had a monster June, tailed off in July, but Thorton and Putts were filling in ok.

In short? You can go back and forth all you want. The bottom line, this is a team effort. when everything was working, the Sox couldn't be beat. Now? Not everything is working. Why does there always have to be a scape goat? Can't people just say it's a team effort, and be done with it?

BadBobbyJenks
08-19-2010, 01:10 PM
I see a lot of numbers that add up to nothing in the OP.

Ozzie had a plan, and so far that plan has meant we're in the thick of the division in late August. I'd say that proves his point more than any numbers some stat geek wants to spout.

WHAT? This isn't a case of a being a stat geek, this is case of making a terrible decision. Lmao at Ozzie's plan of using Kotsay as a DH being the reason we are in the thick of this in August. WOW!

DirtySox
08-19-2010, 01:13 PM
I see a lot of numbers that add up to nothing in the OP.

Ozzie had a plan, and so far that plan has meant we're in the thick of the division in late August. I'd say that proves his point more than any numbers some stat geek wants to spout.

lol

doublem23
08-19-2010, 01:15 PM
I see a lot of numbers that add up to nothing in the OP.

Ozzie had a plan, and so far that plan has meant we're in the thick of the division in late August. I'd say that proves his point more than any numbers some stat geek wants to spout.

Yeah like the part where we've lost 8.5 games of ground to the Twins in a little over a month?

Your idiotic, over-the-top stat-bashing notwithstanding, it's a little difficult to procalim Ozzie's plan is working the team is in a total freefall.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-19-2010, 01:16 PM
I see a lot of numbers that add up to nothing in the OP.

Ozzie had a plan, and so far that plan has meant we're in the thick of the division in late August. I'd say that proves his point more than any numbers some stat geek wants to spout.

stupid confusing numbers

FielderJones
08-19-2010, 01:21 PM
Your idiotic, over-the-top stat-bashing notwithstanding, it's a little difficult to procalim Ozzie's plan is working the team is in a total freefall.

Was it working during June and July?

Is the August freefall due to pitching or hitting difficulties?

oeo
08-19-2010, 01:27 PM
The DH, or lack of, isn't going to cost us the playoffs. Our pitching staff is if they can't a)stop creating early deficits like the beginning of the year and b)hold leads late in games.

The team is built around pitching. They didn't get the job done early in the year, they're not getting the job done now. In the last four games, we've had a lead in the 6th inning or later, and we blew it. Only one time could that possibly be blamed on an inept offense and that was on Saturday.

doublem23
08-19-2010, 01:30 PM
The DH, or lack of, isn't going to cost us the playoffs. Our pitching staff is if they can't a)stop creating early deficits like the beginning of the year and b)hold leads late in games.

The team is built around pitching. They didn't get the job done early in the year, they're not getting the job done now. In the last four games, we've had a lead in the 6th inning or later, and we blew it. Only one time could that possibly be blamed on an inept offense.

That's still a cop-out for this poorly assembled offensive team. 4 of the top 5 teams in the AL in RPG would go to the play-offs if the season ended today. The Sox are hovering around league averge right now but for most of the bad part of the year, we were in the cellar. The bullpen implosion has come at a terrible time, but anyone drawing any conclusion other than the Sox didn't have enough offense is living in a Fantasy Land.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-19-2010, 01:34 PM
Was it working during June and July?

Is the August freefall due to pitching or hitting difficulties?

Do the games prior to "the streak" not count?

oeo
08-19-2010, 01:36 PM
That's still a cop-out for this poorly assembled offensive team. 4 of the top 5 teams in the AL in RPG would go to the play-offs if the season ended today. The Sox are hovering around league averge right now but for most of the bad part of the year, we were in the cellar. The bullpen implosion has come at a terrible time, but anyone drawing any conclusion other than the Sox didn't have enough offense is living in a Fantasy Land.

This just reeks of 'I told you so', but no one here has. The general feeling around here with the DH situation was that this would be one of the worst offenses ever. They haven't been anywhere near that. They've been productive enough, and for the last three months, more than productive to be leading the division. In fact, even with a dreadful April and a so-so May, their numbers are very comparable to the 2005 White Sox.

When you're going to put that type of money into the pitching staff, they better damn well perform and perform when it matters. They aren't doing that, so we just lost 4 games in a row that easily could have been won.

Huisj
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
The argument "The Sox are close to or were in first place, therefore the DH plan has worked" is total crap. If anything, the Sox went on a two month rampage to get in contention in spite of the pathetic state of the DH situation. The pitching and the rest of the offense got them where they are, not the DH. Putting a better DH in that spot would probably have resulted in an even better record today.

KMcMahon817
08-19-2010, 01:44 PM
For once I actually agree with you, although I still think it doesn't excuse Kenny and Ozzie from going with a rotating DH. A lack of a proper DH is one of the many problems this team has, and is not the sole reason we won't make the playoffs. Kenny did his best with limited resources to put together an overall nice team, but unfortunately several individual pieces (Pierre, Pena, Peavy) just simply did not do as expected and are dragging this team down. It just hurts to get our ass handed by the guy we could've had for cheap at one of our least productive positions right now. Even with Thome, this team wasn't going to be much better. We need to blow this team up from the top and bottom, and start building it properly. Kenny just keeps mending holes with inferior parts and it hasn't gotten us much far.


:tealpolice:
Argh, my eyes, my eyes!

I am sorry, but whoever is ripping on Pierre at this point in the season is just flat out stupid and/or ignorant to admit their mistake. Pierre has been one of the best lead off hitters in the game and has been one of the best, if not the best, player on the sox the past two months. Give the guy some damn credit.

oeo
08-19-2010, 01:45 PM
The argument "The Sox are close to or were in first place, therefore the DH plan has worked" is total crap. If anything, the Sox went on a two month rampage to get in contention in spite of the pathetic state of the DH situation. The pitching and the rest of the offense got them where they are, not the DH. Putting a better DH in that spot would probably have resulted in an even better record today.

Yes, it is crap, just as saying 'if we don't make the playoffs it will be because of the DH' is total crap. You keep hanging onto that idea because that's what you said at the beginning of the year. Well, it's wrong.

Would a better DH help? Of course. Would we be in first place? Not if our pitching staff kept putting us behind and blowing late leads.

I am sorry, but whoever is ripping on Pierre at this point in the season is just flat out stupid and/or ignorant to admit their mistake. Pierre has been one of the best lead off hitters in the game and has been one of the best, if not the best, player on the sox the past two months. Give the guy some damn credit.

No can do. This thread is all about being "right" at the beginning of the year.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 01:50 PM
But they DID beat up on the NL.

I am starting to think we are a medicore AL team who happened to beat up on the NL and for only this reason we are 10 games over .500 today.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 01:54 PM
I see a lot of numbers that add up to nothing in the OP.

Ozzie had a plan, and so far that plan has meant we're in the thick of the division in late August. I'd say that proves his point more than any numbers some stat geek wants to spout.


This is ridiculous. So just because we are 10 games over .500 and I guess you want to call it in the thick of the division (although we are in free fall mode) this proves Ozzie's plan was right? What makes you 100% certain that with a true DH we wouldn't be 20 games over today?

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 02:00 PM
This just reeks of 'I told you so', but no one here has. The general feeling around here with the DH situation was that this would be one of the worst offenses ever. They haven't been anywhere near that. They've been productive enough, and for the last three months, more than productive to be leading the division. In fact, even with a dreadful April and a so-so May, their numbers are very comparable to the 2005 White Sox.

When you're going to put that type of money into the pitching staff, they better damn well perform and perform when it matters. They aren't doing that, so we just lost 4 games in a row that easily could have been won.


You are failing to realize how many quality starts this team has pissed away this season, especially in April and May. The offense leaves the pitching staff ZERO room for error when it runs into a rough stretch as it has this month so far. There are so many games we let go to waste in April and May which would have helped the situation during this current collpase.

oeo
08-19-2010, 02:08 PM
You are failing to realize how many quality starts this team has pissed away this season, especially in April and May. The offense leaves the pitching staff ZERO room for error when it runs into a rough stretch as it has this month so far. There are so many games we let go to waste in April and May which would have helped the situation during this current collpase.

Let me start off by saying this is a bull**** excuse. Early in the year, they put the offense behind just about everyday (much like they've done the last two nights). If anything, the pitching staff was putting more pressure on the offense, not the other way around.

Secondly, do you think the Sox would have had that amazing run if they were better in April/May? Probably not. The team is where they should be. They were awful in April/May, unbelievable in June/July, it evened out. It's not exactly the way you draw it up, but it's the way it happened, it's been a wild year.

Why do people have such a tough time saying this pitching staff just isn't getting the job done? Do we really have to continue the BS 'no room for error' excuse?

Mohoney
08-19-2010, 02:21 PM
If we miss the playoffs, I'd think the actual reason was 2 months of awful play, Peavy's injury disrupting the rotation, bullpen implosions, many nagging injuries sapping production.

If we miss the playoffs, the reason will be that the Twins dominated us head to head.

nccwsfan
08-19-2010, 02:37 PM
Let me start off by saying this is a bull**** excuse. Early in the year, they put the offense behind just about everyday (much like they've done the last two nights). If anything, the pitching staff was putting more pressure on the offense, not the other way around.

Secondly, do you think the Sox would have had that amazing run if they were better in April/May? Probably not. The team is where they should be. They were awful in April/May, unbelievable in June/July, it evened out. It's not exactly the way you draw it up, but it's the way it happened, it's been a wild year.

Why do people have such a tough time saying this pitching staff just isn't getting the job done? Do we really have to continue the BS 'no room for error' excuse?

+1. If this pitching staff from top to bottom was pitching today like they were in June/July we would not be looking at must win games. The DH position could certainly be improved but it's far behind pitching problems.

Slappy
08-19-2010, 02:50 PM
+1. If this pitching staff from top to bottom was pitching today like they were in June/July we would not be looking at must win games. The DH position could certainly be improved but it's far behind pitching problems.

The Sox have scored 555 runs this year. They've given up 504.

Now the Twins: Scored 595 and given up 484.

There's a bigger gap between the runs scored for both teams than there is for runs allowed.

In a tight AL central race, more offense would have helped us more than pitching. Both obviously would help, but you cannot ignore the fact that not only have we lost seven 1 run games to the Twins this year, but our DH OPS is rather abysmal, especially compared to the Twins.

Plus, if Peavy was still healthy, this wouldn't even be a question.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 02:51 PM
Let me start off by saying this is a bull**** excuse. Early in the year, they put the offense behind just about everyday (much like they've done the last two nights). If anything, the pitching staff was putting more pressure on the offense, not the other way around.

Secondly, do you think the Sox would have had that amazing run if they were better in April/May? Probably not. The team is where they should be. They were awful in April/May, unbelievable in June/July, it evened out. It's not exactly the way you draw it up, but it's the way it happened, it's been a wild year.

Why do people have such a tough time saying this pitching staff just isn't getting the job done? Do we really have to continue the BS 'no room for error' excuse?


Go look at those emberassing Batting Averages for April and May. Over half the team was hitting below .200 well into May.

The pitching staff did not hold their own in April and May either, but they were not as bad as the offense.

April and May blame the offense.

June and July, blame no one. Everything was clicking.

August, blame the pitching staff. But we are talking about 2 ****ty weeks here.

pudge
08-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Valuable contribution.

Actually, yes, it was a valuable contribution (despite his horrible choice in color), because this insane delirium over the DH situation is ridiculous. Was it smart? No. Would I have loved to see Thome back on the team? Yes. Has it cost us this division or a chance to make the playoffs? No. You could make a real stretch argument that having Thome might have resulted in 2 or 3 more wins, which would put us behind 2 games instead of 5, but we have no idea what the next 1.5 months will bring. If we lose this division by 9 games, it doesn't matter. If we lose by one game, all the second guessing can begin in earnest.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 02:55 PM
Actually, yes, it was a valuable contribution (despite his horrible choice in color), because this insane delirium over the DH situation is ridiculous. Was it smart? No. Would I have loved to see Thome back on the team? Yes. Has it cost us this division or a chance to make the playoffs? No. You could make a real stretch argument that having Thome might have resulted in 2 or 3 more wins, which would put us behind 2 games instead of 5, but we have no idea what the next 1.5 months will bring. If we lose this division by 9 games, it doesn't matter. If we lose by one game, all the second guessing can begin in earnest.

Take into account that Thome has won about 2-3 games just as of late on his own for the Twins, you are looking at worst a tie for first place right now even with this free fall collapse we are in.

pudge
08-19-2010, 02:58 PM
Take into account that Thome has won about 2-3 games just as of late on his own for the Twins, you are looking at worst a tie for first place right now even with this free fall collapse we are in.

That's ridiculous. You could just as easily argue Thome would have hurt this team and cost us 2-3 wins had he been on our team. This team has so many problems, and has had so many problems all year, nit picking the DH is worthless. Again, I didn't agree with management's decision on the DH heading into the season, but this season was pissed away in so many different ways - and yet we still don't know, it could all turn around.

LoveYourSuit
08-19-2010, 03:02 PM
That's ridiculous. You could just as easily argue Thome would have hurt this team and cost us 2-3 wins had he been on our team. This team has so many problems, and has had so many problems all year, nit picking the DH is worthless. Again, I didn't agree with management's decision on the DH heading into the season, but this season was pissed away in so many different ways - and yet we still don't know, it could all turn around.


That's ridiculous based on the fact that he is positing better numbers than our entire DH crew.

Lyle Mouton
08-19-2010, 03:10 PM
That's ridiculous. You could just as easily argue Thome would have hurt this team and cost us 2-3 wins had he been on our team. This team has so many problems, and has had so many problems all year, nit picking the DH is worthless. Again, I didn't agree with management's decision on the DH heading into the season, but this season was pissed away in so many different ways - and yet we still don't know, it could all turn around.
Oh good grief please make this argument.

Huisj
08-19-2010, 03:42 PM
Yes, it is crap, just as saying 'if we don't make the playoffs it will be because of the DH' is total crap. You keep hanging onto that idea because that's what you said at the beginning of the year. Well, it's wrong.

Would a better DH help? Of course. Would we be in first place? Not if our pitching staff kept putting us behind and blowing late leads.





Is that "you" you speak of a general "you", as in "all you folks who said _______", or is it a direct "you", as in me, the poster you were quoting?

TornLabrum
08-19-2010, 03:53 PM
They do more often than not no matter who their DH is.

2008 & 2009 they were 12-6 overall.
2007 they were 4-14 but they couldn't beat anyone that year.
2006 they were 14-4.

Take out the 2007 season and they've been 38-16 overall the past 4 seasons. I think Ozzie is trying to fix something that's not really broken.

Or perhaps in trying to fix it, he broke it.

oeo
08-19-2010, 04:10 PM
Go look at those emberassing Batting Averages for April and May. Over half the team was hitting below .200 well into May.

The pitching staff did not hold their own in April and May either, but they were not as bad as the offense.

April and May blame the offense.

June and July, blame no one. Everything was clicking.

August, blame the pitching staff. But we are talking about 2 ****ty weeks here.

You realize how bad Floyd, Buehrle, and Peavy were in April/May, right? They combined for 10 quality starts in the first two months of the season. I guess that means nothing. I guess when your offense has to score 6, 7 runs a game, that's okay, they should be doing that.

oeo
08-19-2010, 04:14 PM
Is that "you" you speak of a general "you", as in "all you folks who said _______", or is it a direct "you", as in me, the poster you were quoting?

Not directly at you, at most of the people in the thread.

captain54
08-19-2010, 04:26 PM
In a tight AL central race, more offense would have helped us more than pitching. Both obviously would help, but you cannot ignore the fact that not only have we lost seven 1 run games to the Twins this year, but our DH OPS is rather abysmal, especially compared to the Twins.

.

this is a great point. as an example, look at the Tuesday nite game vs Minny where the Sox had bases loaded and 1 out in the top of the ninth
with a tie score and Konerko hits into a DP. As it was, the bullpen shut the Twins down in the bottom of the ninth....game over ... Sox win.

the already taxed bullpen was extended for one more inning and, then the Thome thing.

oeo
08-19-2010, 04:30 PM
this is a great point. as an example, look at the Tuesday nite game vs Minny where the Sox had bases loaded and 1 out in the top of the ninth
with a tie score and Konerko hits into a DP. As it was, the bullpen shut the Twins down in the bottom of the ninth....game over ... Sox win.

Is there a guarantee that they shut the Twins down in the bottom of the 9th? Nope.

the already taxed bullpen was extended for one more inning and, then the Thome thing.

The bullpen wasn't "taxed", it's just not performing well right now. They had the day off Monday, Danks threw 7 innings on Tuesday.

Slappy
08-19-2010, 04:34 PM
Is there a guarantee that they shut the Twins down in the bottom of the 9th? Nope.

The bullpen wasn't "taxed", it's just not performing well right now. They had the day off Monday, Danks threw 7 innings on Tuesday.

So are you arguing just to prove captain wrong or do you actually have a point here?

captain54
08-19-2010, 05:04 PM
Is there a guarantee that they shut the Twins down in the bottom of the 9th? Nope.

The bullpen wasn't "taxed", it's just not performing well right now. They had the day off Monday, Danks threw 7 innings on Tuesday.

your rebuttal holds no water.

there's no guarantee that they shut the Twins down in the bottom of the 9th, but more than likely same guys would have been at bat, had the Sox taken lead, so the likelihood is high that yes, they would have shut the Twins down in the bottom of the ninth.

the bullpen may not be performing well, but they just so happened to be performing well enough in the bottom of the ninth Tuesday nite to shut down the Twins and keep them from scoring for at least 3 outs.