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Lip Man 1
08-18-2010, 02:45 PM
For what it's worth in the discussion. Just got this in response to a question I had from someone high up in the Sox front office:

"Thought it was an OK play up until he went after AJ’s head with his forearm. To me, that was dirty. As I told Hawk this morning, I would have gone after Young right then and there.

I agree with your feelings on this club needing toughness and letting Minnesota get into our heads. Unfortunately, the only guy I feel is tough, but can’t do anything yet, because he is not an established veteran, is Beckham. I feel eventually he will become that guy."


Lip

Slappy
08-18-2010, 02:49 PM
For what it's worth in the discussion. Just got this in response to a question I had from someone high up in the Sox front office:

"Thought it was an OK play up until he went after AJís head with his forearm. To me, that was dirty. As I told Hawk this morning, I would have gone after Young right then and there.

I agree with your feelings on this club needing toughness and letting Minnesota get into our heads. Unfortunately, the only guy I feel is tough, but canít do anything yet, because he is not an established veteran, is Beckham. I feel eventually he will become that guy."


Lip

Beckham seems like that kind of guy to me, too. Is this pretty standard around MLB that the young guys are discouraged from taking on that role, or is it the players themselves that put those restraints on until they feel comfortable?

Delmon Young is only 25, remember.

salty99
08-18-2010, 03:16 PM
This goes far beyond just Young's play. How about plunking someone in the first after they plunked us numerous times. I'm not counting the near miss on Hardy.

hawkjt
08-18-2010, 04:24 PM
I am starting to think the Sox players agents are telling them to avoid contact to stay healthy or something.

I think it is good policy to have teams fear your pitchers just a little.
That means pitching inside and occasionally hitting people.
Move their feet.
Twins have hit Sox 7 times to 1...not good.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2010, 04:52 PM
Of course the million dollar question in this entire discussion of whether or not the Twins are intimidating the Sox, if the Sox are 'soft,' if they have any actual vocal clubhouse leaders etc is this one.

What does Kenny Williams think about it all? And what was his reaction last night?

I wish I could get the answer to that!

Lip

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 04:52 PM
Of course the million dollar question in this entire discussion of whether or not the Twins are intimidating the Sox, if the Sox are 'soft,' if they have any actual vocal clubhouse leaders etc is this one.

What does Kenny Williams think about it all? And what was his reaction last night?

I wish I could get the answer to that!

Lip

I wish The Club was still filming.

LoveYourSuit
08-18-2010, 04:57 PM
Never want for my team to become a band of thugs out there, but it comes to a point after getting your ass kicked by these clowns for a great portion of this past decade to start showing a bit more fight and heart.

I thought Ozzie was suppose to bring that to this clubhouse.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 04:57 PM
I wish The Club was still filming.

Speaking of which, Comcast On Demand stopped showing the episodes after the 4th, I think. Weird.

rainbow6
08-18-2010, 05:19 PM
For anyone that watches this team on a daily basis, and has for years, it is simply statement of fact that they don't back each other up when it comes to instances like this.

Whether that blames lies on the coaching staff, or just the players I have no clue or opinion.

I used to call up my brother whenever it looked like there might be some payback due in a game. Hawk would say - "Well, someone's gonna pay for that" or something similar. We would watch the rest of the game trying to guess who would get hit, etc. It never comes...

I actually laugh now when Hawk mentions the retribution that is surely coming; I wonder if he will eventually realize that is not the makeup this team under Ozzie.

My prediction tonight: the Twins will hit one of our guys, warnings will be issued to both sides, end of discussion.

Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow.

Luke.

Brian26
08-18-2010, 09:00 PM
As much as Ozzie talks about learning under LaRussa his first two years when he was here, he apparently didn't pay attention. If there's a trait I always liked LaRussa for, it was that his pitchers always backed up his batters.

Game 3 of the '83 playoffs is a nice example. Kittle got plunked (he ended up missing Game 4). Next inning, Dotson drilled Ripken and came back and missed Eddie Murray, the next batter, by a couple of inches.

pythons007
08-18-2010, 09:33 PM
Beckham seems like that kind of guy to me, too. Is this pretty standard around MLB that the young guys are discouraged from taking on that role, or is it the players themselves that put those restraints on until they feel comfortable?

Delmon Young is only 25, remember.

Um...Longoria is very young and he got into a players face, one BJ Upton!

WhiteSox5187
08-18-2010, 09:40 PM
I'm curious to see what we do this off season. We have the talent, but as Lip has said there is a leadership quality on this team that is lacking and that is sorely needed. I am convinced that we lose to the Twins so often because they are just engraved in our head. As Lip has said, as soon as we give up a hit we look beat. Our body language, even with leads, is always looking like a team that is beating. Not only do we find ways to lose in Minnesota but it looks like we play more to avoid losing rather than to win.

rainbow6
08-18-2010, 10:30 PM
Update: I guess I need to eat crow.

Hawk pointed out tonight that there will be payback for Young's cheapshot. He was quick to add though, that it won't be "in this series."

So the next time we play the Twins at the Cell vengance will be ours.

Ahem.

What a ****ing joke. Minnesota's catcher will continue to be grooved pitches to enable him to get three to four hits a game. Out catcher gets hit in the godddamn face by a cheapshot.

White Sox Pride. Not feeling it tonight.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm curious to see what we do this off season.

I'm dreading the off-season. There will be quite a few holes to fill, probably not much money to throw around, and there is little in the farm system I could see stepping in.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 11:28 PM
I'm dreading the off-season. There will be quite a few holes to fill, probably not much money to throw around, and there is little in the farm system I could see stepping in.
Reality is pretty harsh these days, eh? Ugh, I really think this team needs to be completely blown up and by that I mean, new ownership, new GM, new manager, new coaching staff, new scouts, etc.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 11:33 PM
Reality is pretty harsh these days, eh? Ugh, I really think this team needs to be completely blown up and by that I mean, new ownership, new GM, new manager, new coaching staff, new scouts, etc.

Agreed. Many people seem to think Hahn will be taking over GM duties at some point, and I hope it is sooner rather than later. I dread he might have a mess to clean up in what he inherits though.

Pablo_Honey
08-18-2010, 11:40 PM
Agreed. Many people seem to think Hahn will be taking over GM duties at some point, and I hope it is sooner rather than later. I dread he might have a mess to clean up in what he inherits though.
If Hahn takes over, I wanna see him either outsmarting other GMs in the league to get true quality pieces for this team with what little resource we have, or just trade the veterans for a sack of balls to rebuild this team. Considering the former is very unlikely, I wanna see the latter. No more constantly trading farmhands to mending holes with expensive veterans. We are running too low on resources to do that. I know rebuilding is such a dreaded term but this team is a complete mess. I want to see the Sox try to be more like the Jays than the Mariners.

kevingrt
08-18-2010, 11:43 PM
Agreed. Many people seem to think Hahn will be taking over GM duties at some point, and I hope it is sooner rather than later. I dread he might have a mess to clean up in what he inherits though.

Hey at least our last two first round picks have looked fairly decent in their short life in the major leagues. At least it appears they belong. Hopefully this Laumann hiring will surely pay off 3-4 seasons down the road especially if we don't trade away every prospect he drafts.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 11:44 PM
If Hahn takes over, I wanna see him either outsmarting other GMs in the league to get true quality pieces for this team with what little resource we have, or just trade the veterans for a sack of balls to rebuild this team. Considering the former is very unlikely, I wanna see the latter. No more constantly trading farmhands to mending holes with expensive veterans. We are running too low on resources to do that. I know rebuilding is such a dreaded term but this team is a complete mess. I want to see the Sox try to be more like the Jays than the Mariners.

I don't know if it is a complete mess currently, but it might be depending on what happens this off-season. I'm primarily worried about how expensive the rotation is, raises in arbitration, and not having enough money to sufficiently fill some open holes. I've lost plenty of faith in KW with many of his recent trades, the Teahen extension, and the decision to not fill the DH position.

I'm optimistic about next year's pitching staff, but after that I just don't know.

DirtySox
08-18-2010, 11:46 PM
Hey at least our last two first round picks have looked fairly decent in their short life in the major leagues. At least it appears they belong. Hopefully this Laumann hiring will surely pay off 3-4 seasons down the road especially if we don't trade away every prospect he drafts.

I'm okay with Laumann I suppose. I believe he is very constrained by his allotted resources, and ultimately Jerry. I'd like to see what he could do if he wasn't forced to pinch pennies.

chisoxfanatic
08-19-2010, 12:04 AM
For what it's worth in the discussion. Just got this in response to a question I had from someone high up in the Sox front office:

"Thought it was an OK play up until he went after AJís head with his forearm. To me, that was dirty. As I told Hawk this morning, I would have gone after Young right then and there.

I agree with your feelings on this club needing toughness and letting Minnesota get into our heads. Unfortunately, the only guy I feel is tough, but canít do anything yet, because he is not an established veteran, is Beckham. I feel eventually he will become that guy."


Lip
Well, at least they have identified that the team is mentally weak, having maybe one guy with any mental balls...The question is, are they going to do anything about it? A team needs more than one or two mentally tough players.

kevingrt
08-19-2010, 01:16 AM
Well, at least they have identified that the team is mentally weak, having maybe one guy with any mental balls...The question is, are they going to do anything about it? A team needs more than one or two mentally tough players.

Not denying this team is mentally weak but who was mentally strong on the '05 team? Not Gooch, Uribe, Pods? I gotta believe Aaron was. Dye maybe? Crede don't think so? Then again what does mentally tough mean? I don't know. Obviously El Duque was mentally tough for Game 3 ALDS. Oh memories. All I have right now.

ilsox7
08-19-2010, 01:30 AM
As much as Ozzie talks about learning under LaRussa his first two years when he was here, he apparently didn't pay attention. If there's a trait I always liked LaRussa for, it was that his pitchers always backed up his batters.

Game 3 of the '83 playoffs is a nice example. Kittle got plunked (he ended up missing Game 4). Next inning, Dotson drilled Ripken and came back and missed Eddie Murray, the next batter, by a couple of inches.

Ozzie is the leader of bowing down to the Twins. It is no wonder his team follows suit.

kufram
08-19-2010, 02:31 AM
Reality is pretty harsh these days, eh? Ugh, I really think this team needs to be completely blown up and by that I mean, new ownership, new GM, new manager, new coaching staff, new scouts, etc.

I learned a long time ago to be very careful about what I want... because I just might get it. You could get your wish, you know, but it might not be in the city of your choice.

In 2005 we led the division from start to finish, first place all of the way. I remember a home series, mid-season, I think the Royals were one of the teams we played, and there were a lot of empty seats. Last week we were in first place, albeit tied, and there were a lot of empty seats. So it isn't about being competitive, necessarily. What does it take for the Sox to sellout their home field?

How about some new fans?

Dan H
08-19-2010, 04:36 AM
I learned a long time ago to be very careful about what I want... because I just might get it. You could get your wish, you know, but it might not be in the city of your choice.

In 2005 we led the division from start to finish, first place all of the way. I remember a home series, mid-season, I think the Royals were one of the teams we played, and there were a lot of empty seats. Last week we were in first place, albeit tied, and there were a lot of empty seats. So it isn't about being competitive, necessarily. What does it take for the Sox to sellout their home field?

How about some new fans?

Well, we can transport some Cub fans to the South Side. But then for all their sell outs and attendance championships, they haven't won a World Series in 102 years and haven't played in a World Series in 6 1/2 decades.

The Sox didn't sell out in their three game series against Detroit but still drew over 106,000. What did they do? They lost two late inning leads and limped into Minnesota feeling they couldn't trust the bullpen with any lead. Yeah, that's the fans' fault all right. If the Sox and others keep it with the fan bashing, you will see more and more empty seats.

On getting even. Another poster mentioned the '83 playoffs when Dotson plunked Ripken and almost hit Murray. True and maybe that had to be done. But Dotson had settled down and seemed to find his groove after a terrible first inning. He then walks Murray and falls behind John Lowenstein. Dotson has now thrown seven straight balls. He has to come into into Lowenstein and then Lowenstien then bangs a double off the right field wall and a 4-1 game becomes a 6-1 game. Game over but the Sox got even!

Maybe the Sox should've hit a couple Twins. But in the meantime, if you don't throw at them, throw it past them. Danks and Floyd didn't do that. The Sox needed a solid performance from each and got nothing. But I guess that the fans' fault, too.

We can debate about toughness and attendance all we want. But this team has been exposed and the 26-5 run, as exciting as it was, appears to have been a fluke. The first 50+ games and this recent run show that this is an average team at best.

kufram
08-19-2010, 05:31 AM
Well, we can transport some Cub fans to the South Side. But then for all their sell outs and attendance championships, they haven't won a World Series in 102 years and haven't played in a World Series in 6 1/2 decades.

The Sox didn't sell out in their three game series against Detroit but still drew over 106,000. What did they do? They lost two late inning leads and limped into Minnesota feeling they couldn't trust the bullpen with any lead. Yeah, that's the fans' fault all right. If the Sox and others keep it with the fan bashing, you will see more and more empty seats.

On getting even. Another poster mentioned the '83 playoffs when Dotson plunked Ripken and almost hit Murray. True and maybe that had to be done. But Dotson had settled down and seemed to find his groove after a terrible first inning. He then walks Murray and falls behind John Lowenstein. Dotson has now thrown seven straight balls. He has to come into into Lowenstein and then Lowenstien then bangs a double off the right field wall and a 4-1 game becomes a 6-1 game. Game over but the Sox got even!

Maybe the Sox should've hit a couple Twins. But in the meantime, if you don't throw at them, throw it past them. Danks and Floyd didn't do that. The Sox needed a solid performance from each and got nothing. But I guess that the fans' fault, too.

We can debate about toughness and attendance all we want. But this team has been exposed and the 26-5 run, as exciting as it was, appears to have been a fluke. The first 50+ games and this recent run show that this is an average team at best.


I'm a Sox fan so I'm hardly fan bashing. I'm just pointing out a couple of facts. Nobody knew they were going to lose to the Tigers beforehand, did they? Nowhere did I imply that that should or does effect what happens on the field, nor blame fans for anything. I could see how it would enter people's heads that when there are empty seats and you're in first place the threat of empty seats is a little muted. By all accounts quite a lot of the 106,000 were not Sox fans.

26-5 is a little too much to be called a fluke. Some people just can't wait to bash. I'm not implying you are one of them.

Bob Roarman
08-19-2010, 05:36 AM
Most teams aren't as good as their best hot streak or as bad as their worst stretch of games. The Sox are no different. Not quite good enough, but not horrible. And that's not saying the Twins are a great team.

soxinem1
08-19-2010, 06:55 AM
Update: I guess I need to eat crow.

Hawk pointed out tonight that there will be payback for Young's cheapshot. He was quick to add though, that it won't be "in this series."

So the next time we play the Twins at the Cell vengance will be ours.

Ahem.

What a ****ing joke. Minnesota's catcher will continue to be grooved pitches to enable him to get three to four hits a game. Out catcher gets hit in the godddamn face by a cheapshot.

White Sox Pride. Not feeling it tonight.

Several years ago Hawk said the same thing when Vicente Padilla was pulling his **** with AJ when we played TEX.

We NEVER did anything.

Bob Roarman
08-19-2010, 07:20 AM
The Hawk is still living in his own "time zone" with Yaz and Double D. A world where he became a pull hitter because he couldn't bear going up the middle and hitting the pitcher with line drives anymore. Please, don't listen to him. Please. It's one of the signs of the End of Days.

Corlose 15
08-19-2010, 07:36 AM
I don't know if it is a complete mess currently, but it might be depending on what happens this off-season. I'm primarily worried about how expensive the rotation is, raises in arbitration, and not having enough money to sufficiently fill some open holes. I've lost plenty of faith in KW with many of his recent trades, the Teahen extension, and the decision to not fill the DH position.

I'm optimistic about next year's pitching staff, but after that I just don't know.

Teahen was extended for one year, it's really not a huge deal that is going to hamstring the Sox from being able to do things. I don't really get all the complaining about it.

I think their biggest holes going into next year are going to be C, 1B, LF, and a couple of bullpen slots. Hopefully they get rid of Jenks and can retain Putz to close.

The rotation should be very good.

Oh, and as for the Sox. Yes, they're completely soft. Paul Konerko sounds defeated everytime he talks to the media and mentally they've already lost a game before they even play Minnesota.

doublem23
08-19-2010, 07:48 AM
Teahen was extended for one year, it's really not a huge deal that is going to hamstring the Sox from being able to do things. I don't really get all the complaining about it.

He was extended one year past his arb years, but it's a 3-year guaranteed contract. So instead of going year-to-year with the guy, he's definitely sticking around until 2012. It wouldn't be that big of a deal except that Teahen is an awful 3B who can't hit for ****.

366 games left until that deal is done.

DumpJerry
08-19-2010, 08:04 AM
He was extended one year past his arb years, but it's a 3-year guaranteed contract. So instead of going year-to-year with the guy, he's definitely sticking around until 2012. It wouldn't be that big of a deal except that Teahen is an awful 3B who can't hit for ****.

366 games left until that deal is done.
Hendry will take that contract off our hands.

Corlose 15
08-19-2010, 09:58 AM
He was extended one year past his arb years, but it's a 3-year guaranteed contract. So instead of going year-to-year with the guy, he's definitely sticking around until 2012. It wouldn't be that big of a deal except that Teahen is an awful 3B who can't hit for ****.

366 games left until that deal is done.

So what? They bought out his abritration years when they would've had him under control anyways and added an additional year of free agency. It's not a deal that is going to be impossible to move and it's not a deal that's going to hamstring the budget.

Teahen hasn't really played enough here in order to say that he won't be useful yet.

dickallen15
08-19-2010, 10:03 AM
Update: I guess I need to eat crow.

Hawk pointed out tonight that there will be payback for Young's cheapshot. He was quick to add though, that it won't be "in this series."

So the next time we play the Twins at the Cell vengance will be ours.

Ahem.

What a ****ing joke. Minnesota's catcher will continue to be grooved pitches to enable him to get three to four hits a game. Out catcher gets hit in the godddamn face by a cheapshot.

White Sox Pride. Not feeling it tonight.

Yeah, I don't understand why its not dealt with right away. I'm telling you, a nicely placed fastball into Mauer's ribcage can be exactly what the Sox need. They have lost 7 of the last 8 head to head meetings between these teams, and oh yeah, if Jenks hadn't bungled the 3 run lead last trip and Thornton didn't blow Tuesday's game, the Sox would only be 1 out.

russ99
08-19-2010, 10:11 AM
If Hahn takes over, I wanna see him either outsmarting other GMs in the league to get true quality pieces for this team with what little resource we have, or just trade the veterans for a sack of balls to rebuild this team. Considering the former is very unlikely, I wanna see the latter. No more constantly trading farmhands to mending holes with expensive veterans. We are running too low on resources to do that. I know rebuilding is such a dreaded term but this team is a complete mess. I want to see the Sox try to be more like the Jays than the Mariners.

Rebuilding is for suckers. Really, when was the last time the Jays were more than an afterthought? They're two steps away from being the Pirates.

Look at Tampa and how long it took them to be competitive, yet every year they had a supposedly great farm system. Do you want the Sox to rebuild for 8-10 years of bad seasons?

You'd really prefer building a good farm team to watching the big league club contend every year, despite some minor flaws?

Not to mention the empty stadium, bare bones payroll and becoming a minor league team compared to the Cubs in the eyes of the public and press again...

I'm don't want the Sox to give up on all the progress they've made in the last 10 years because some people have a problem with a move or two Kenny made.

soltrain21
08-19-2010, 10:14 AM
Rebuilding is for suckers. Really, when was the last time the Jays were more than an afterthought? They're two steps away from being the Pirates.

Look at Tampa and how long it took them to be competitive, yet every year they had a supposedly great farm system. Do you want the Sox to rebuild for 8-10 years of bad seasons?

You'd really prefer building a good farm team to watching the big league club contend every year, despite some minor flaws?

Not to mention the empty stadium, bare bones payroll and becoming a minor league team compared to the Cubs in the eyes of the public and press again...

I'm don't want the Sox to give up on all the progress they've made in the last 10 years because some people have a problem with a move or two Kenny made.

We play in the AL Central. Not in the toughest division in baseball like those two. The Blue Jays would be a pretty good team if they didn't have to worry about the Red Sox and Yankees. It would hardly be 10 years of bad baseball. That's absurd.

TheOldRoman
08-19-2010, 10:33 AM
He was extended one year past his arb years, but it's a 3-year guaranteed contract. So instead of going year-to-year with the guy, he's definitely sticking around until 2012. It wouldn't be that big of a deal except that Teahen is an awful 3B who can't hit for ****.

366 games left until that deal is done.1) Teahen being the worst 3B ever is one of those WSI myths. He isn't great or even good, but he is a little below average. 2)He can "hit for ****" You can look at his .250 average, but when he got injured he was 4th on the team in average. His average would have ticked up along with everybody else's. I don't think he is ever going to hit .300, but he is a decent hitter and takes walks. He isn't hitting for as much power as he should, but he is still valueable as a bench player at the least. His contract isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Teahen could pretty easily be moved to a Red Sox/Yankees as a super-utility player without eating salary. I will predict he isn't on the team in 2012, maybe not next year either.

Dan H
08-19-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm a Sox fan so I'm hardly fan bashing. I'm just pointing out a couple of facts. Nobody knew they were going to lose to the Tigers beforehand, did they? Nowhere did I imply that that should or does effect what happens on the field, nor blame fans for anything. I could see how it would enter people's heads that when there are empty seats and you're in first place the threat of empty seats is a little muted. By all accounts quite a lot of the 106,000 were not Sox fans.

26-5 is a little too much to be called a fluke. Some people just can't wait to bash. I'm not implying you are one of them.

106,000 is still 106,00. Having said that, I wonder why attendance hasn't been better. The economy is at least a part of the problem. I may have overreacted but I hear a great deal of Sox fan bashing in the media and that got old 10 years ago.

Okay, calling 26-5 a fluke is a bit much too, But with the team going 9 games under for first 50 games and 9 under during the current stretch, it leaves me wondering about this year and next.

LITTLE NELL
08-19-2010, 11:32 AM
106,000 is still 106,00. Having said that, I wonder why attendance hasn't been better. The economy is at least a part of the problem. I may have overreacted but I hear a great deal of Sox fan bashing in the media and that got old 10 years ago.

Okay, calling 26-5 a fluke is a bit much too, But with the team going 9 games under for first 50 games and 9 under during the current stretch, it leaves me wondering about this year and next.

But it should have been 120,000 as should have the Twin series.
It may be the economy but it is a fact that of all the big market teams plus a good number of the smaller ones the White Sox are the only franchise that has failed to draw 3,000,000 fans in one season.
We came close in 1991, the 1st year of new Comiskey, and again in 2006 after the WS championship season.
It is food for thought that if the Sox can't draw 3,000,000 after a World Series season, when will they.
This year we have been outdrawn by the likes of the Brewers, Astros, Mariners. All those teams have been under .500 just about all year, is the economy that much better in Milwaukee than Chicago?
To tell you the truth, it bothers the hell out of me that the Sox don't draw as well as they should.

Nellie_Fox
08-19-2010, 11:47 AM
This thread has become about attendance, which is prohibited. The rest of it is being adequately discussed elsewhere, so it's done.