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View Full Version : *** Official *** Thome's Walk-off Loss Post-Game Thread Part II


doublem23
08-18-2010, 10:54 AM
... continued ... (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122763)

Hartman
08-18-2010, 10:59 AM
Do we really need to continue it? :redneck

Let's start a thread and start scouting for next year.

DrCrawdad
08-18-2010, 11:02 AM
Some questions for those of you looking for retaliation:

Was it unreasonable for Young to expect contact?

No.

Once a runner decides to run the catcher over is he supposed risk missing the plate because the catcher decided he didn't want contact?

I don't get this question. Did you see the play? Young missed the plate entirely BECAUSE he decided he wanted contact.

Why did Young have to go out of his way to find AJ?

I can't venture to know what Young was thinking. The point is that Young did go out of his way and never even attempted to touch the plate. Had he slid he probably would have been safe. As it is Young went after AJ and went headhunting on top of it.

Why wasn't AJ blocking the plate and trying to shove his catcher's mitt down Young's throat?

AJ was out in front of the plate and had to reach to bring the ball in. Perhaps AJ was out of position. But regardless, AJ was not blocking the plate.

soxfanatlanta
08-18-2010, 11:06 AM
Do we really need to continue it? :redneck

Let's start a thread and start scouting for next year.


Four games back and we are all going to die. :rolleyes:

The Reds had their asses handed to them by the Cards in their own house recently, and now they are back in first place.

Yes the bullpen needs to get it going
Yes Delmon Young's behavior needs to be...corrected

But please get off the ledge :wink:

PennStater98r
08-18-2010, 11:13 AM
Yes Delmon Young's behavior needs to be...corrected

This - by a Floyd fastball high and tight.

Bruizer
08-18-2010, 11:19 AM
What a game! The Sox were down by 4 early and came back to tie it! Then they came back two more times to tie it and eventually take the lead! Thome got his revenge, though. I don't think I've ever seen such emotion coming from him when he rounded third and came home. I'm happy for him, but i haven't given up on the Sox. Too many games left - anything can happen as we saw in June and July. Go Sox!

Bru :cool:

KMcMahon817
08-18-2010, 11:24 AM
I didn't read the first thread, mostly because I didn't even want to look on here last night. I knew that everyone would be clamoring about the season being over and that our beloved Thome was the one who threw the last blow.

But man, what a game last night. The Sox really showed some character fighting back from the 4-0 deficit. I think that game really woke the Sox up for a few reasons. AJ is fired up again, and rightfully so. I really hope Delmon gets a Floyd fastball in around his neck in his first at bat tonight. Alexei with two big rips in the 9th and the 10th. Just wow, what a game.

Not much to say really; Thome got a pitch he could handle and he beat us. I am sure there were a lot of posters, as there always is, complaining that the Sox don't have Thome but I think he proved to us why we made the right decision last night. He got pegged out on a play at that plate that I think just about every major leaguer would have scored on, besides Big Jimmy. I, for one, am extremely happy that we don't have to watch that anyone. Jim is going to hit some big home runs, that's what he does. But I am not afraid to say that the Sox still made the right decision.

Let's go out there and get this W tonight. We need boys, we really, really need it.

happydude
08-18-2010, 11:32 AM
Its unfortunate that there cannot be honest disagreement without the inevitable personal commentary. There are those who believe that some form of retaliation for what seemed to be a borderline dirty play is warranted and others who subscribe to the notion that the best response is to win on the field.

If those who subscribe to the notion of responding to physical aggression with physical aggression are "sore losers" exhibiting "false bravado" and are, therefore, simply internet "tough guys" then what of those who would take a whipping on the field AND allow violations of their right to be free from unwarranted physical harm? How should they be characterized?

This isn't about being upset about getting beaten on the field; sometimes someone is better and its dishonorable not to accept that. You're never required to sit back and allow behavior that could fairly be considered bullying. Guys hitting you and your teammates with a baseball on purpose, going out of their way to make contact with your catcher; this is the stuff of bullies and does not need to be tolerated and rationalized.

Advocating against tolerating this kind of conduct doesn't have to emanate from false bravado or misplaced toughness, either. It's not about anger, either. It is possible to peacefully and serenely make a decision to stand up for yourself when warranted and then act upon it; physically if you deem that type of response to be appropriate.

DSpivack
08-18-2010, 11:45 AM
Its unfortunate that there cannot be honest disagreement without the inevitable personal commentary. There are those who believe that some form of retaliation for what seemed to be a borderline dirty play is warranted and others who subscribe to the notion that the best response is to win on the field.

If those who subscribe to the notion of responding to physical aggression with physical aggression are "sore losers" exhibiting "false bravado" and are, therefore, simply internet "tough guys" then what of those who would take a whipping on the field AND allow violations of their right to be free from unwarranted physical harm? How should they be characterized?

This isn't about being upset about getting beaten on the field; sometimes someone is better and its dishonorable not to accept that. You're never required to sit back and allow behavior that could fairly be considered bullying. Guys hitting you and your teammates with a baseball on purpose, going out of their way to make contact with your catcher; this is the stuff of bullies and does not need to be tolerated and rationalized.

Advocating against tolerating this kind of conduct doesn't have to emanate from false bravado or misplaced toughness, either. It's not about anger, either. It is possible to peacefully and serenely make a decision to stand up for yourself when warranted and then act upon it; physically if you deem that type of response to be appropriate.

It's not that I think the Sox would have won if they retaliated nor do I think that's necessarily the appropriate reaction [the only one would be winning].

However, AJ doing absolutely nothing after such a punk move by Young is just another example of the Twins intimidating the White Sox yet again. I'm tired of the Sox being mental midgets when it comes to facing the Minnesota Twins late in the season in a division race and the Twins usually getting the upper hand, and the Twins also having some classless play that gets into the minds of the White Sox, who have no response and eventually lose. The only cure to that is winning, but that remains to be seen. Hitting a guy, I don't know if that is the right response or not, but I am just tired of seeing the same results year in, year out without seemingly anything changing.

KMcMahon817
08-18-2010, 11:57 AM
It's not that I think the Sox would have won if they retaliated nor do I think that's necessarily the appropriate reaction [the only one would be winning].

However, AJ doing absolutely nothing after such a punk move by Young is just another example of the Twins intimidating the White Sox yet again. I'm tired of the Sox being mental midgets when it comes to facing the Minnesota Twins late in the season in a division race and the Twins usually getting the upper hand, and the Twins also having some classless play that gets into the minds of the White Sox, who have no response and eventually lose. The only cure to that is winning, but that remains to be seen. Hitting a guy, I don't know if that is the right response or not, but I am just tired of seeing the same results year in, year out without seemingly anything changing.

If you think that play got in the Sox head, I hope you think it was a positive thing. I can guarantee you that the play fired up the SOX and they weren't like "Oh, those damn twins. They really mistreat us, but oh well."

DSpivack
08-18-2010, 11:59 AM
If you think that play got in the Sox head, I hope you think it was a positive thing. I can guarantee you that the play fired up the SOX and they weren't like "Oh, those damn twins. They really mistreat us, but oh well."

You can guarantee it? :scratch:

Not just relating to that one play, but you don't think plays like that get in their head and affect the team negatively? I think the Sox aren't as confident in facing the Twins, and that has shown over the last ~10 years.

voodoochile
08-18-2010, 12:03 PM
No.



I don't get this question. Did you see the play? Young missed the plate entirely BECAUSE he decided he wanted contact.



I can't venture to know what Young was thinking. The point is that Young did go out of his way and never even attempted to touch the plate. Had he slid he probably would have been safe. As it is Young went after AJ and went headhunting on top of it.



AJ was out in front of the plate and had to reach to bring the ball in. Perhaps AJ was out of position. But regardless, AJ was not blocking the plate.

I agree that Young went head hunting by extending his arms. I disagree entirely with the rest. AJ was clearly in the basepath and had even braced himself as much as he could for the impending collision.

That game sucked to be a Sox fan, but the nation missed out on a great game. Maybe games like this will get ESPN and the rest to wake up and start covering the rivalry. Doubtful and that's their loss...

DrCrawdad
08-18-2010, 12:21 PM
I agree that Young went head hunting by extending his arms. I disagree entirely with the rest. AJ was clearly in the basepath and had even braced himself as much as he could for the impending collision.

That game sucked to be a Sox fan, but the nation missed out on a great game. Maybe games like this will get ESPN and the rest to wake up and start covering the rivalry. Doubtful and that's their loss...

Take a look at the video again. (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11082995) AJ's left foot was barely in the baseline. Young never even attempted to touch the plate. In fact on the Sox side, good thing Young didn't slide and good in a way that he was more concerned with hitting AJ in the face because had Young simply slid he would have been safe.

Jerko
08-18-2010, 12:24 PM
I hate bunting against a pitcher before he records an out. I texted a friend of mine before Omar's bunt and said walk Rios then DP.

Not blaming Thornton being in there, but what were Thome's numbers for us the past few years in late innings against a lefty? 0-139 with 139 K's? Can't believe we are the only team that doesn't have a lefty that can strike the guy out. Unreal.

JB98
08-18-2010, 12:43 PM
Its unfortunate that there cannot be honest disagreement without the inevitable personal commentary. There are those who believe that some form of retaliation for what seemed to be a borderline dirty play is warranted and others who subscribe to the notion that the best response is to win on the field.

If those who subscribe to the notion of responding to physical aggression with physical aggression are "sore losers" exhibiting "false bravado" and are, therefore, simply internet "tough guys" then what of those who would take a whipping on the field AND allow violations of their right to be free from unwarranted physical harm? How should they be characterized?

This isn't about being upset about getting beaten on the field; sometimes someone is better and its dishonorable not to accept that. You're never required to sit back and allow behavior that could fairly be considered bullying. Guys hitting you and your teammates with a baseball on purpose, going out of their way to make contact with your catcher; this is the stuff of bullies and does not need to be tolerated and rationalized.

Advocating against tolerating this kind of conduct doesn't have to emanate from false bravado or misplaced toughness, either. It's not about anger, either. It is possible to peacefully and serenely make a decision to stand up for yourself when warranted and then act upon it; physically if you deem that type of response to be appropriate.

Great post. I'm behind you 100 percent.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 12:45 PM
Damn! I only caught bits of the game, but watching the highlights is heartbreaking. Thome is rubbing our faces in poo poo.

And Delmon clearly swerved out of the base path just to push AJ in the face. What a complete scumbag.

Seemed like a good tense game though, so I hope tonights is a repeat of that with a different outcome.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 12:46 PM
I'm still feeling the sting of this loss right now. Wow, this is rough.

DSpivack
08-18-2010, 12:55 PM
I'm still feeling the sting of this loss right now. Wow, this is rough.

Yeah, this is right up there for me as the Torii Hunter game, the Jose Paniagua game [although that was a win, it sure felt like a loss], or getting swept at the Hump Dome in '08.

DrCrawdad
08-18-2010, 01:00 PM
...And Delmon clearly swerved out of the base path just to push AJ in the face. What a complete scumbag.


If Joey "Albert" Belle got fined for giving Fernando Vina a stiff arm (when IIRC Vina was in the basepath) then Young deserves a fine as well.

Let's not forget how the Twits, the players, their manager, their broadcasters and their medidiots whined endlessly when they thought AJ spiked (stepped on the foot) of their first baseman a couple years ago.

...Seemed like a good tense game though, so I hope tonights is a repeat of that with a different outcome.

I hope the Sox kick the Twits (rear ends) tonight, win the remaining 5 against the Twits and wipe that smug grin off their faces.

kittle42
08-18-2010, 01:00 PM
If those who subscribe to the notion of responding to physical aggression with physical aggression are "sore losers" exhibiting "false bravado" and are, therefore, simply internet "tough guys" then what of those who would take a whipping on the field AND allow violations of their right to be free from unwarranted physical harm? How should they be characterized?

It's WSI. The majority of folks cannot accept that there is a middle ground on any subject.

happydude
08-18-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm still feeling the sting of this loss right now. Wow, this is rough.

Yeah, this is right up there for me as the Torii Hunter game, the Jose Paniagua game [although that was a win, it sure felt like a loss], or getting swept at the Hump Dome in '08.

Take heart, gentlemen. We lost the game, to be sure, but the guys didn't roll over and quit. We fought back from an early deficit to tie, lost the lead, and then tied it again in the 9th. We then managed to take the lead only to lose it on a bullpen implosion.

In the past, we seemed to crumble in the face of adversity; last night, we were simply beaten. Our bullpen has cost us three games in the standings in the last week but we're still very much in this thing barring a sweep.

KMcMahon817
08-18-2010, 01:02 PM
You can guarantee it? :scratch:

Not just relating to that one play, but you don't think plays like that get in their head and affect the team negatively? I think the Sox aren't as confident in facing the Twins, and that has shown over the last ~10 years.

Yeah, I can. If you ever played sports, or have any ounce of competitiveness in you, it would fire you up. When a teammate takes a cheap shot, in any sport, the rest of the team has a chip of their shoulder. It's just how it works. You honestly think these professional athletes just roll over to a forearm to the head?

So, no. I don't think the Twins are in the heads of the Sox at all. I think the Twins are in the heads of Sox fans, but that's about it. The Twins play good baseball against the Sox, but the whole "the sox think they're going to lose before the first pitch is thrown" or "oh the Twins made a bush league play, shucks, what can you do" is so far from the truth its comical.

DSpivack
08-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Yeah, I can. If you ever played sports, or have any ounce of competitiveness in you, it would fire you up. When a teammate takes a cheap shot, in any sport, the rest of the team has a chip of their shoulder. It's just how it works. You honestly think these professional athletes just roll over to a forearm to the head?

So, no. I don't think the Twins are in the heads of the Sox at all. I think the Twins are in the heads of Sox fans, but that's about it. The Twins play good baseball against the Sox, but the whole "the sox think they're going to lose before the first pitch is thrown" or "oh the Twins made a bush league play, shucks, what can you do" is so far from the truth its comical.

I think the play of the Sox against the Twins in the final months of the season the last 10 or so years shows otherwise.

Take heart, gentlemen. We lost the game, to be sure, but the guys didn't roll over and quit. We fought back from an early deficit to tie, lost the lead, and then tied it again in the 9th. We then managed to take the lead only to lose it on a bullpen implosion.

In the past, we seemed to crumble in the face of adversity; last night, we were simply beaten. Our bullpen has cost us three games in the standings in the last week but we're still very much in this thing barring a sweep.

Tonight will show a lot. I'm not optimistic.

happydude
08-18-2010, 01:08 PM
It's WSI. The majority of folks cannot accept that there is a middle ground on any subject.

From a personal standpoint, I would hope that this changes over time for all of us, myself included where appropriate; maybe the world would be a better place. I suppose, though, that these kind of stalemates add zest to these types of sites. I've noticed that the more upheaval there is the more lively the discussion boards are.

kufram
08-18-2010, 01:14 PM
I didn't see the game but it sounds like a great game that we did everything but win. Doesn't matter what player hit the winning home run.

I read a number of posts before watching the highlights and I must say I was expecting a train wreck. What I saw was a prang. Did Young go for contact ? Yes. Did he make much contact? No. Ok, his arms were up around the head but it was a lot of nothing. A.J. did exactly the right thing... nothing. Let Young make an idiot of himself. Maybe give him a reminder when they get to Chicago.

Some fans over react to everything. Losing a game like that is hard and I was down about it too, but put the weapons away.... don't need them as we are still standing.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2010, 01:15 PM
McMahon:

You say the Twins are only in the heads of Sox fans?

Tell that to Hawk, tell that to Ozzie.

Go back into the other thread and read the post of mine where I describe what I was told by a member of the front office before last night's game.

I disagree with you, there are squarely and deeply in the heads of the Sox players and organization.

Lip

Jollyroger2
08-18-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm still feeling the sting of this loss right now. Wow, this is rough.

There's no sting for me because this game and result was entirely expected. The Twins have owned the Sox this season and many in the past. When they play head to head, the Twins man up while the Sox play like a bunch of scared chipmunks.

The Sox are a below .500 team against the AL and 22-26 vs their division. Minnesota is 32-17 against the division. That's really all anyone needs to know. The Sox are crap, and they act like it and play like it. Whether its errors, stupid or lazy baserunning, inability to get key hits, or the inability to get ballgames saved, the team is a mess from the top down. Other than the streak they had against mostly NL garbage, this team has been junk.

And the sad thing is, we all knew that going in. Management decided to fill the roster with basically castoffs and scrubs and expected that to somehow work. A guy like Thome is basically told he isn't needed, so he goes to the top rival and is successful in helping them beat us. I think sadly, like many fans, management is still hooked on 2005 and is/was satisfied with that title for many years. Now we have a lineup of junk, a pitching staff that should be very good but often underachieves, and the farm system is below average in terms of upcoming prospects or trade commodities.

I guess KW and maybe many here are satisfied with the current mediocrity. I'm not. I loved 2005 and truly thank KW and Ozzie and ownership and the players for that great run. But I didn't want that to be the only title for another 90 years either. Not saying it will be that bad, but right now I see no reason to get overly excited, not for any kind of rally this year at least for sure. You can tell by the way they play, they're mailing it in. Management did nothing to make the team better despite having several glaring holes, and all Ozzie wants to do is seemingly praise the opponents, instead of kicking some butt and getting his players to win games.

Ah screw it.

KMcMahon817
08-18-2010, 01:16 PM
McMahon:

You say the Twins are only in the heads of Sox fans?

Tell that to Hawk, tell that to Ozzie.

Go back into the other thread and read the post of mine where I describe what I was told by a member of the front office before last night's game.

I disagree with you, there are squarly and deeply in the heads of the Sox players and organization.

Lip

You're entitled to your own opinion and so are your "sources". Hawk isn't on the 25 man roster, neither is Ozzie.

DrCrawdad
08-18-2010, 01:18 PM
McMahon:

You say the Twins are only in the heads of Sox fans?

Tell that to Hawk, tell that to Ozzie.

Go back into the other thread and read the post of mine where I describe what I was told by a member of the front office before last night's game.

I disagree with you, there are squarly and deeply in the heads of the Sox players and organization.

Lip

I agree with you Lip. Beckham the other day was on The Score talking about the Twits and it was even more clear how the Twits haunt the Sox.

The Sox play the Twits like the Roadrunner, but this Roadrunner is always looking over his head, waiting and anticipating the anvil falling on his head.

kittle42
08-18-2010, 01:45 PM
From a personal standpoint, I would hope that this changes over time for all of us, myself included where appropriate; maybe the world would be a better place. I suppose, though, that these kind of stalemates add zest to these types of sites. I've noticed that the more upheaval there is the more lively the discussion boards are.

I don't think the statement is isolated to WSI. It applies equally to the general level of discourse in the country.

Dick Allen
08-18-2010, 01:47 PM
Yeah, I would prefer the Sox exact payback by winning these next two games, but that is highly unlikely. Therefore, Young better be going down tonight. Hell, I'd love to drive up there and do it myself.:redneck

As far as the Sox showing character by coming back from deficits to take the lead in the 10th, please remember that the pitching matchup for this game was the most favorable of the three, and the Sox let it get away. I'm not optimistic about the next two, but hopefully they'll prove me wrong. Hopefully, they can get a big lead and then plunk Young.

ChiSoxGirl
08-18-2010, 01:51 PM
Its unfortunate that there cannot be honest disagreement without the inevitable personal commentary. There are those who believe that some form of retaliation for what seemed to be a borderline dirty play is warranted and others who subscribe to the notion that the best response is to win on the field.

If those who subscribe to the notion of responding to physical aggression with physical aggression are "sore losers" exhibiting "false bravado" and are, therefore, simply internet "tough guys" then what of those who would take a whipping on the field AND allow violations of their right to be free from unwarranted physical harm? How should they be characterized?

This isn't about being upset about getting beaten on the field; sometimes someone is better and its dishonorable not to accept that. You're never required to sit back and allow behavior that could fairly be considered bullying. Guys hitting you and your teammates with a baseball on purpose, going out of their way to make contact with your catcher; this is the stuff of bullies and does not need to be tolerated and rationalized.

Advocating against tolerating this kind of conduct doesn't have to emanate from false bravado or misplaced toughness, either. It's not about anger, either. It is possible to peacefully and serenely make a decision to stand up for yourself when warranted and then act upon it; physically if you deem that type of response to be appropriate.

This would be the EXACT reason I left the postgame thread last night. Your post rocks!

russ99
08-18-2010, 01:53 PM
I guess KW and maybe many here are satisfied with the current mediocrity. I'm not. I loved 2005 and truly thank KW and Ozzie and ownership and the players for that great run. But I didn't want that to be the only title for another 90 years either. Not saying it will be that bad, but right now I see no reason to get overly excited, not for any kind of rally this year at least for sure. You can tell by the way they play, they're mailing it in. Management did nothing to make the team better despite having several glaring holes, and all Ozzie wants to do is seemingly praise the opponents, instead of kicking some butt and getting his players to win games.

Ah screw it.

I don't think anyone in the Sox organization is satisfied with mediocrity, but right or wrong, they have to maintain to a pre-set budget.

We'd all have loved the Sox to overspend on an Abreu, a Matsui or Damon, but the Sox just couldn't afford them. Kenny's always trying to make the team better (and he'd be the last guy I'd accuse of mailing it in) but unless Jerry approves a budget increase, he's going to have to shop at the bargain basement, which is where he got Jones, Vizquel, Putz, etc.

I have to call shenanigans on taking on Jackson's $5M+ salary at the deadline after crying poor all offseason.

Since we've had a successful season, a modest bump in attendence, and having some significant salary taken off the budget this offseason, it will be interesting to see what the excuse is this time.

As I said yesterday, they need to upgrade the offense this time, or tickets will be a very hard sell regardless how good the pitching looks on paper.

AlexRios51
08-18-2010, 02:08 PM
This - by a Floyd fastball high and tight.
Or as Hawk said "how about the rawlings in the ear hole of his helmet".

kittle42
08-18-2010, 02:11 PM
This would be the EXACT reason I left the postgame thread last night. Your post rocks!

Yeah, my fault, I think. I took a jab - it was either there or in the gamethread.

kittle42
08-18-2010, 02:12 PM
I have to call shenanigans on taking on Jackson's $5M+ salary at the deadline after crying poor all offseason.

And it's the second straight season they've done so, though Peavy and Rios turned out OK - well, Rios at least, but injuries happen.

dwitt76
08-18-2010, 02:12 PM
It only took 3 pitches from Thronton. Base hit, Strike, game over. How quickly the game turns.

Nellie_Fox
08-18-2010, 02:16 PM
I'm curious how many of you who are calling for KW and Ozzie's head because they didn't bring Thome back are also wanting Paulie non-tendered after the year. Because I'm seeing an awful lot of posters wanting Paulie gone, yet he's younger than Thome and having a much more productive season this year than Thome had last year.

kittle42
08-18-2010, 02:25 PM
I'm curious how many of you who are calling for KW and Ozzie's head because they didn't bring Thome back are also wanting Paulie non-tendered after the year. Because I'm seeing an awful lot of posters wanting Paulie gone, yet he's younger than Thome and having a much more productive season this year than Thome had last year.

I don't think too many people want him gone (there are some who do) - I think they see it as an inevitability.

I'd love to keep him. For all intents and purposes, after Ozzie, he is the face of the franchise. I think that despite his awesome year, he will still be in the level of affordability. He hasn't lost a step, plays at least an average 1B, and, at worst, could be a DH if Ozzie would actually start believing he is an AL manager.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 02:29 PM
I'm curious how many of you who are calling for KW and Ozzie's head because they didn't bring Thome back are also wanting Paulie non-tendered after the year. Because I'm seeing an awful lot of posters wanting Paulie gone, yet he's younger than Thome and having a much more productive season this year than Thome had last year.

Why compare the two, though? Thome is making 1.5 million this year and Paul is making a lot more. Paulie is the full time 1b and Thome would serve as DH. Paul will also stand to make a lot more than Jim next year because of the year he is having.

I don't see any bias at play here, just people speculating on a smart business decision.

ChiSoxGirl
08-18-2010, 02:33 PM
Yeah, my fault, I think. I took a jab - it was either there or in the gamethread.

Believe me, you're not the only one who took a jab at me last night. There were quite a few people and it aggravated me, so I just signed off. Honestly, pretty much every time I post in any of the baseball forums, I feel like I take heat for my comments or opinions. Lately, the vast majority of my posts have been in the non-baseball forums because I'm sick of being criticized or called out.

AlexRios51
08-18-2010, 02:33 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that if and when the Sox drill young there will be a brawl, and who knows maybe that will light a fire under their asses, I personally would like to see A.J run over mauer though.

khan
08-18-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm curious how many of you who are calling for KW and Ozzie's head because they didn't bring Thome back
Let's be complete and intellectually honest here: That OG didn't want Thome back for $1.5M or so, or roughly what Kotsay gets paid to be a ****ty [and virtual full-time] DH/once in awhile league average 1B defensively. [In other words, a defensive role that could have been filled by other people in the roster.]

are also wanting Paulie non-tendered after the year. Because I'm seeing an awful lot of posters wanting Paulie gone, yet he's younger than Thome and having a much more productive season this year than Thome had last year.
He's on $15M/yr, and is probably going to command much more than the $1.5M Thome got. Since Cy Jackson is on $8.35M next year, money is a consideration.

In other words, it's akin to deciding between the Ford Focus for ~$20k vs the BMW X5 for ~$80K, when you stupidly overspent for a flat screen TV.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 02:45 PM
The best even with Paulie would be if we could slot him to DH and pick up a good first basemen or get lucky and hope that Viciedo is improved by then.

russ99
08-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Let's be complete and intellectually honest here: That OG didn't want Thome back for $1.5M or so, or roughly what Kotsay gets paid to be a ****ty [and virtual full-time] DH/once in awhile league average 1B defensively. [In other words, a defensive role that could have been filled by other people in the roster.]


He's on $15M/yr, and is probably going to command much more than the $1.5M Thome got. Since Cy Jackson is on $8.35M next year, money is a consideration.

In other words, it's akin to deciding between the Ford Focus for ~$20k vs the BMW X5 for ~$80K, when you stupidly overspent for a flat screen TV.

I'll save the majority of my budget post until after the season, but we have plenty of free agents and non-tender candidates - none of which should be brought back at or above their current salary.

The only one with a decent case is Putz, and he hurt that case over the weekend. I'd love to see Paul be brought back and be sad if/when he leaves, but if he's going for $17M+ a season, forget about it.

Even with Jackson's $8.35, which isn't very much for a good 3rd starter and pre-arb raises for Quentin and Danks, the Sox should have plenty of room to upgrade as long as Jerry will maintain or add to the current near $110M payroll.

Considering the expected revenue bump over last year, I think that's a reasonable expectation.

kittle42
08-18-2010, 02:55 PM
Believe me, you're not the only one who took a jab at me last night. There were quite a few people and it aggravated me, so I just signed off. Honestly, pretty much every time I post in any of the baseball forums, I feel like I take heat for my comments or opinions. Lately, the vast majority of my posts have been in the non-baseball forums because I'm sick of being criticized or called out.

It's the Marian Hossa hate, I tell you!

bunty_doghunter
08-18-2010, 03:00 PM
I have a first date tomorrow....I better go somewhere that doesn't have tv's or there likely won't be a second date. It's a Sox game, so you probably won't get past second base.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 03:04 PM
Yow!

Palehose Pete
08-18-2010, 03:10 PM
Four games back and we are all going to die. :rolleyes:

The Reds had their asses handed to them by the Cards in their own house recently, and now they are back in first place.

Yes the bullpen needs to get it going
Yes Delmon Young's behavior needs to be...corrected

But please get off the ledge :wink:

Nice. Immediately thought of this guy.

guillensdisciple
08-18-2010, 03:12 PM
It's a Sox game, so you probably won't get past second base.

POTW

you snapped.

TomBradley72
08-18-2010, 03:25 PM
Asking Thornton to go out there for another inning of work was asking for trouble...but with Jenks out, unless OG wants to go with Pena/Linebrink/Sale/Putz, he didn't have alot of options.

The Sox are clearly being outclassed and somewhat intimidated by the Twins in the 2nd half...they are oozing with confidence...while we wring our hands to figure out how to retaliate to the Delmon Young play or the fact that hey have hit our batters 7 times this year vs. 1 by us.
If it was the other way around, Rios taking out Mauer or the Twins being hit 7 times vs. one...I have no doubt Gardenhire would handle it. I like OG as a manager, but between his bluster and leaving it up to his players to "handle it"...he's coming up short in this specific area of being a manager.

For almost 10 years the White Sox "respond" to the Twins (i.e. we have grinders too! no more metrodome!, etc.), while the Twins NEVER respond to the White Sox..they just do their thing.

Dan H
08-18-2010, 03:29 PM
Or as Hawk said "how about the rawlings in the ear hole of his helmet".

If the White Sox plunk the guy in the ribs, that's fine with me. But I don't like head hunting or an announcer advocating this type of nonsense. I stopped being a fan of Hawk long time ago. He gets too involved and this statement is just plainly irresponsible. Hawk, go away, go far away.

Urban Legend
08-18-2010, 03:59 PM
Not blaming Thornton being in there, but what were Thome's numbers for us the past few years in late innings against a lefty? 0-139 with 139 K's? Can't believe we are the only team that doesn't have a lefty that can strike the guy out. Unreal.

Totally agree... Especially against a lefty who has a breaking ball. I was stunned that Thorton threw Thome two fastballs. I thought for certain that Thorton's second pitch would be a slider in the dirt and Thome would swing and miss. How many times have we seen Thome swing wildly and miss against breaking balls in the dirt, three miles out of the strike zone against lefties, especially from the seventh inning on when he was with the Sox? I've said many times before that I thought Thome's average in the late innings in any clutch game against a lefty (with even a lousy breaking ball) was about .091.

happydude
08-18-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't think the statement is isolated to WSI. It applies equally to the general level of discourse in the country.

Agreed.

hawkjt
08-18-2010, 04:14 PM
I see a lot of revisionist history on the re-signing of Thome at the end of last year. He hit about .215 his last two months,August with the Sox and Sept with the Dodgers last year with a onbase of about .280.
I was ready to move on from JD and Thome at the end of last year. They looked done. Now, Jim has had a better year this year than last,but who could predict that at his age? I think being in a better hitting lineup has helped him. I wanted Damon to be signed,or barring that, another better lefty hitter,and that is my gripe. Not that Thome is not here,but because we forced Kotsay into a role he was not suited for.

Watched Clayton Richard vs the Cubs today,and he looked solid. I liked him and did not want him traded last year. If we have him instead of Jake, we have plenty of money to sign a better lefty bat at the beginning of the year....that one hurts,and Clayton was looking good when he was traded and has continued that roll.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Damn, a second thread? The only other one I can think of since my time here was also against the Twins - it was after that horrible sweep in September, 2008. It's when I began posting and stopped being a lurker.

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 04:39 PM
I agree that Young went head hunting by extending his arms. I disagree entirely with the rest. AJ was clearly in the basepath and had even braced himself as much as he could for the impending collision.

That game sucked to be a Sox fan, but the nation missed out on a great game. Maybe games like this will get ESPN and the rest to wake up and start covering the rivalry. Doubtful and that's their loss...

This entire series is worth watching, IMO. Too bad it'll be on CSN

GoGoCrede
08-18-2010, 04:40 PM
Yeah, this is right up there for me as the Torii Hunter game, the Jose Paniagua game [although that was a win, it sure felt like a loss], or getting swept at the Hump Dome in '08.

I can usually get over the sting of a loss pretty quickly, but this one has stayed with me. I've said this a lot about past losses this season, but this is far and away the worst. I hope it will never be topped.

DSpivack
08-18-2010, 05:11 PM
I can usually get over the sting of a loss pretty quickly, but this one has stayed with me. I've said this a lot about past losses this season, but this is far and away the worst. I hope it will never be topped.

It all depends on how the rest of the season plays out.

Soxman219
08-18-2010, 05:16 PM
Two hours til gametime and I'm still pissed about last night. Please win tonight!

Soxman219
08-18-2010, 05:25 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that if and when the Sox drill young there will be a brawl, and who knows maybe that will light a fire under their asses, I personally would like to see A.J run over mauer though.

Nope