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balke
08-17-2010, 12:49 PM
Since I'm anticipating this thread and 100 lamenting Kenny bashing quotes everytime he hits a homerun... I'll just get the ball rolling on his career update.

0-19 .000 avg. 9Ks 1BB and back to the minors.

Tragg
08-17-2010, 02:16 PM
IN contrast to the Gio trade, the Chris Young trade, the Brandon Allen trade, the Aaron Cunningham trade, we actually got something of value from trading Carter.

Pablo_Honey
08-17-2010, 03:11 PM
IIRC, the majority of people are happy about this trade and some are willing to call it a highway robbery. As frustrating as Carlos has been since breaking his wrist, he's given us one division title and is still providing us with homeruns. Carter was an absolute butcher at first base when we traded him and he hasn't gotten any better in that regard. His bat has some legit potential in it but Carlos can take the field and has shown MVP potentials already at MLB level. I don't think anyone's crying over losing Carter.

doublem23
08-17-2010, 03:39 PM
IN contrast to the Gio trade, the Chris Young trade, the Brandon Allen trade, the Aaron Cunningham trade, we actually got something of value from trading Carter.

:rolleyes:

Vazquez gave the Sox over 600 innings of steady work for the Sox in 3 seasons. Maybe he never lived up to his potential or melted down in big games toward the end of 2008, but he was a steady innings-eater who struck out a lot of batters and was ultimately an above average AL starter during his tenure on the South Side. Maybe he's a dissapointment becuase he has "ace" stuff and is only a mid-to-back end starter but right now, I'd gladly take him on the team.

Did you ever stop and think we don't get anything of value because those guys you listed are all, um, what's the word? Bad? Allen's not in the Majors right now, Cunningham is a sub-.250 career hitter, and Gio and Young are OK MLB players who have taken forever to pan out You make it sound like we're trading superstars, if you were to take back the trades KW has made over the years and man a team full of Sox prospect castaways, you'd likely end up with a team that would win 70ish games.

Lip Man 1
08-17-2010, 04:45 PM
Well said.

Lip

Tragg
08-17-2010, 10:49 PM
:rolleyes:

Vazquez gave the Sox over 600 innings of steady work for the Sox in 3 seasons. Maybe he never lived up to his potential or melted down in big games toward the end of 2008, but he was a steady innings-eater who struck out a lot of batters and was ultimately an above average AL starter during his tenure on the South Side. Maybe he's a dissapointment becuase he has "ace" stuff and is only a mid-to-back end starter but right now, I'd gladly take him on the team.

Did you ever stop and think we don't get anything of value because those guys you listed are all, um, what's the word? Bad? Allen's not in the Majors right now, Cunningham is a sub-.250 career hitter, and Gio and Young are OK MLB players who have taken forever to pan out You make it sound like we're trading superstars, if you were to take back the trades KW has made over the years and man a team full of Sox prospect castaways, you'd likely end up with a team that would win 70ish games.
The point is when you trade prospects, you are trading away the uncertain, but high ceiling, in return for the sure thing with lower ceiling. Of course most of them won't turn out to be anything...but some will. We're not getting the sure thing.
Chris Young has 20 home runs. How many does Flowers have?
Gio is a respectable starter who would have stabilized our rotation.
Ryan Sweeney, not great, would have avoided the Wise/Anderson dog and pony show...completely misevaluated by the field manager and given away by the general manager.
Allen probably sucks - but he was fairly well regarded and we could have done better than a bad middle reliever from (too) friendly Arizona.
And hudson has pitched every bit as well as Jackson at 1/10 the price. I know, I know- don't want young pitchers for the penant race.

Take away every trade that Williams has made since the Quentin trade, and the Sox are a much better ballclub.

But the biggest problem is that the Sox have too FEW prospects. The drafting and development need a bunch of improvement.

doublem23
08-17-2010, 11:08 PM
Take a look at Gio's home/road splits. He's nothing special who happens to pitch in a giant ballpark. And I'm sure you would have loved to watch Gio bounce up and down between AAA and the Majors the last 3 years trying to learn how to pitch in the Major Leagues.

Pablo_Honey
08-17-2010, 11:22 PM
Chris Young has 20 home runs. How many does Flowers have?
16 in about 90 games. Anyway, you can't compare Chris Young and Tyler Flowers because the Vazquez trades involved more than just those two. We also got Lillibridge, Santos Rodriguez and Jon Gilmore, all three of them having nice seasons so far. We had to pick among Young, Anderson and Owens. Kenny picked Anderson and while that didn't work out so well, we also wound up picking up Rios who's been delightful to watch this year.

Gio is a respectable starter who would have stabilized our rotation.
Gio also got murdered by MLB hitters up until now. Knowing Kenny, he would have used him in a deal to acquire veterans before his value dropped. Oh and what stabilizing does this rotation need? We have 4 solid starters even with Peavy gone. Let's not act like our starters have been pitching like absolute crap.

Ryan Sweeney, not great, would have avoided the Wise/Anderson dog and pony show...completely misevaluated by the field manager and given away by the general manager.
Sweeney has been nothing but an average OF. His numbers look nice because he was platooned heavily by the A's. He still can't hit for power and is weak against southpaws. Hardly an upgrade over Wise/Anderson. At the time, the trade looked fair. We paid a bit high of a price because Swisher wasn't being shopped by Beane.

Allen probably sucks - but he was fairly well regarded and we could have done better than a bad middle reliever from (too) friendly Arizona.
This is the only trade that I'd say Kenny screwed up on. I hated the trade when it was announced and I hate it even more now. Good thing neither guy really has much of an impact. Otherwise I'd have thrown a fit a long time ago and probably had a heart attack.

And hudson has pitched every bit as well as Jackson at 1/10 the price. I know, I know- don't want young pitchers for the penant race.
I was upset about this trade but you can't their performances because they pitch in different leagues against different competitions. Besides, Coop had a good amount of time to see why Hudson couldn't throw strikes and he didn't have anything to say about it, so it probably was more mental than anything. On the other hand, Coop fixed Jackson FAST and he's been rock solid since, eating up innings and limiting runs. I think Jackson's salary is the only drawback of this trade.

Take away every trade that Williams has made since the Quentin trade, and the Sox are a much better ballclub.
That's a very bold statement. You would've probably called for Kenny's head if he didn't acquire Peavy and Richard got lit up like Christmas lights.

But the biggest problem is that the Sox have too FEW prospects. The drafting and development need a bunch of improvement.
This I agree with. Unfortunately, we are stuck with this cesspool of a farm system unless the Sox brass gets a complete overhaul, starting with Jerry Reinsdorf.