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Slappy
08-16-2010, 06:28 PM
Since Teahen's been back (3 games) he has 3 runs scored, 1 hr, and 3 rbi. He was tearing it up in AAA in his rehab stint and he's clearly hungry and out to prove himself.

But apparently Ozzie has other plans? "That's the left-handed bat we might need," Ozzie Guillen said. "It gives some flexibility to the ballclub."

Flexibility? Omar doesn't hit home runs, and rbi are few and far between. Someone tell please tell Ozzie that we wont get to the playoffs with Mark Kotsay getting regular pt over Teahen, nor will we get there with Carlos Quentin's defense. Doesn't make a lick of sense to replace Teahen at 3rd for defensive reasons but leave Carlos in to butcher RF and get hurt bending down for a ball.

"Expect what you want to expect," Teahen said before Friday's game. "I'm going to expect a lot out of myself. I know I was having good at-bats [at Charlotte], and I'm going to continue to do that here."

I just want to see some well played, well managed baseball. I don't even care what team it's by anymore, because watching this team waste away is just sad.

kittle42
08-16-2010, 06:40 PM
Ozzie's dream is to have 13 guys who can each play three positions, and a pitching staff that has exactly 6 righties and 6 lefties.

Dibbs
08-16-2010, 06:45 PM
I agree, Teahen should play everyday. He can play RF, 1B or DH. So if Ozzie likes these wacky rotations, Teahen can be that guy. Kotsay should not be on the team. Ozzie will find a way to screw it up.

LITTLE NELL
08-16-2010, 06:47 PM
I want to see him in there everyday also, he was starting to hit the ball well when he got injured. i think he can help down the stretch.

soxtalker
08-16-2010, 07:05 PM
He had problems fielding 3B. Though I didn't see it, I recall reading that Rios had to rescue him on one play in RF (which IIRC, he hasn't played before). And we have someone who has been hitting pretty well at 1B.

I appreciate the idea that we need his bat in the lineup as long as he continues to hit well. Add on top of that Ozzie's continual desire to keep all the guys rested, and I can see where it would not be an easy decision.

Zisk77
08-16-2010, 07:19 PM
Teahen lost sight of the ball and Rios saved him, and yes Teahen has played right field before just not for us.

Noneck
08-16-2010, 07:20 PM
Considering how long he has been out and the move they made without him, I consider him the LH mid season replacement. He should play now.

Mohoney
08-17-2010, 12:27 AM
Teahen at DH, Vizquel at 3B would probably be the best situation for an everyday lineup.

Kotsay then becomes the backup 1B and Jones becomes the 4th OF, which is where they belong.

LoveYourSuit
08-17-2010, 12:37 AM
The only 2 guys Teahen should be playing over is Kotsay and Jones.

So yes, there is room for him to play every day by default.

seventyseven
08-17-2010, 12:53 AM
Problem is, if Teahen goes 2-11 with 3 Ks over his first three games back, this thread never happens, and everyone starts clamoring for Dayan to come back up.

Let's allow Teahan a little more time in the lineup to see if he deserves regular ABs.

Slappy
08-17-2010, 01:06 AM
You're wrong on a lot of levels. Not only have I seen a considerable amount of posters calling for Kotsay to get axed and Teahen take over a permanent role somewhere ever since Kenny didn't get a bat, but I've never been a fan of Dayan and he was never brought up to permanently take over Teahen's spot in the first place. Did you forget that Teahen got injured or something?

Plus, Teahen has maintained a decent avg and respectable OPS all year and he seems more determined and focused since coming off the DL. He should not be anywhere near the whipping boy some people here are making him out to be.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 01:35 AM
Since Teahen's been back (3 games) he has 3 runs scored, 1 hr, and 3 rbi. He was tearing it up in AAA in his rehab stint and he's clearly hungry and out to prove himself.

But apparently Ozzie has other plans? "That's the left-handed bat we might need," Ozzie Guillen said. "It gives some flexibility to the ballclub."

Flexibility? Omar doesn't hit home runs, and rbi are few and far between. Someone tell please tell Ozzie that we wont get to the playoffs with Mark Kotsay getting regular pt over Teahen, nor will we get there with Carlos Quentin's defense. Doesn't make a lick of sense to replace Teahen at 3rd for defensive reasons but leave Carlos in to butcher RF and get hurt bending down for a ball.

"Expect what you want to expect," Teahen said before Friday's game. "I'm going to expect a lot out of myself. I know I was having good at-bats [at Charlotte], and I'm going to continue to do that here."

I just want to see some well played, well managed baseball. I don't even care what team it's by anymore, because watching this team waste away is just sad.

Am I missing something or hasn't Teahen played every game since he's been back? I also don't recall anyone saying that he was NOT going to play every day.

And yes, he does give them flexibility by being able to play 3 positions. the problem with that is what?

Also, I think it's a little bit of an overreaction to say this team is "wasting away". They're going through a bad stretch of about a week or so which happens to EVERY team and it is not shocking. I'm sure the Twins will slow down a bit here in the next 7 weeks, so there's no point in freaking out just yet.

Sam Spade
08-17-2010, 02:22 AM
Am I missing something or hasn't Teahen played every game since he's been back? I also don't recall anyone saying that he was NOT going to play every day.

And yes, he does give them flexibility by being able to play 3 positions. the problem with that is what?

Also, I think it's a little bit of an overreaction to say this team is "wasting away". They're going through a bad stretch of about a week or so which happens to EVERY team and it is not shocking. I'm sure the Twins will slow down a bit here in the next 7 weeks, so there's no point in freaking out just yet.
I'm not freaking out, but saying its been a week or so is unrealistically optimistic. If they don't win the series in minnesota, it will be two weeks to the day. That hasn't happened yet, obviously, and may not. I'm just saying, they need to start playing better baseball soon.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 06:11 AM
Teahen at DH, Vizquel at 3B would probably be the best situation for an everyday lineup.

Kotsay then becomes the backup 1B and Jones becomes the 4th OF, which is where they belong.

You stole my post! :)

I agree completely.

dickallen15
08-17-2010, 06:44 AM
Its ironic the thing that a lot of people said would make Teahen a better player, just playing one position (3B) is now the exact opposite. What is the Sox record with Teahen in the line up? He's a terrible, terrible, defensive 3B, but also horrid in RF. He strikes out a ton. He's just not very good. Maybe better offensively than Kotsay, but that's not saying much. I'm sure KW rues the day he gave Teahen an extension.

dickallen15
08-17-2010, 06:50 AM
Am I missing something or hasn't Teahen played every game since he's been back? I also don't recall anyone saying that he was NOT going to play every day.

And yes, he does give them flexibility by being able to play 3 positions. the problem with that is what?

Also, I think it's a little bit of an overreaction to say this team is "wasting away". They're going through a bad stretch of about a week or so which happens to EVERY team and it is not shocking. I'm sure the Twins will slow down a bit here in the next 7 weeks, so there's no point in freaking out just yet.

The Sox went through a bad stretch for 2 months. I think the freak out is because everyone knows this team is capable of being bad for a very long time. But that's what its like to be a fan. When they are hot, you think they will never lose again. When they are not, you wonder if they will ever win.

One thing is for sure, they have to play better vs. their divisional opponents. This series is huge. Hopefully they can win at least a couple and use it as a springboard for the remainder of the season. At the very least, they have to get at least one of these. 6 games out would be pretty tough.

TomBradley72
08-17-2010, 08:31 AM
The summer of 2010 when Mark Kotsay and Mark Teahen became way more important than they should be on any club who wants to contend.

TomBradley72
08-17-2010, 08:37 AM
Its ironic the thing that a lot of people said would make Teahen a better player, just playing one position (3B) is now the exact opposite. What is the Sox record with Teahen in the line up? He's a terrible, terrible, defensive 3B, but also horrid in RF. He strikes out a ton. He's just not very good. Maybe better offensively than Kotsay, but that's not saying much. I'm sure KW rues the day he gave Teahen an extension.

Great post....he's never been a plus defender, he stikes out ~125 times/year...but somehow he fit a strategy based on improving the defense and reducing strike outs? :scratch:

TheOldRoman
08-17-2010, 09:11 AM
Its ironic the thing that a lot of people said would make Teahen a better player, just playing one position (3B) is now the exact opposite. What is the Sox record with Teahen in the line up? He's a terrible, terrible, defensive 3B, but also horrid in RF. He strikes out a ton. He's just not very good. Maybe better offensively than Kotsay, but that's not saying much. I'm sure KW rues the day he gave Teahen an extension.That is a drastic overexaggeration. Teahen isn't going to win any gold gloves, he struggled this season defensively, but he wasn't horrible at third. I know the myth was that Omar took over and his defense propelled the Sox on that run. While his defense certainly helped, having him at 3B over Teahen didn't make the pitching staff give up a run and a half less per game. Having him at third didn't make the hitters come out of their two month-long slump.

eriqjaffe
08-17-2010, 09:23 AM
Great post....he's never been a plus defender, he stikes out ~125 times/year...but somehow he fit a strategy based on improving the defense and reducing strike outs? :scratch:Well, he does fit the strategy of not relying on home runs as much... :rolleyes:

ewokpelts
08-17-2010, 09:35 AM
Since Teahen's been back (3 games) he has 3 runs scored, 1 hr, and 3 rbi. He was tearing it up in AAA in his rehab stint and he's clearly hungry and out to prove himself.

But apparently Ozzie has other plans? "That's the left-handed bat we might need," Ozzie Guillen said. "It gives some flexibility to the ballclub."

Flexibility? Omar doesn't hit home runs, and rbi are few and far between. Someone tell please tell Ozzie that we wont get to the playoffs with Mark Kotsay getting regular pt over Teahen, nor will we get there with Carlos Quentin's defense. Doesn't make a lick of sense to replace Teahen at 3rd for defensive reasons but leave Carlos in to butcher RF and get hurt bending down for a ball.

"Expect what you want to expect," Teahen said before Friday's game. "I'm going to expect a lot out of myself. I know I was having good at-bats [at Charlotte], and I'm going to continue to do that here."

I just want to see some well played, well managed baseball. I don't even care what team it's by anymore, because watching this team waste away is just sad.sox are 1-2 since he came back.

dickallen15
08-17-2010, 09:49 AM
That is a drastic overexaggeration. Teahen isn't going to win any gold gloves, he struggled this season defensively, but he wasn't horrible at third. I know the myth was that Omar took over and his defense propelled the Sox on that run. While his defense certainly helped, having him at 3B over Teahen didn't make the pitching staff give up a run and a half less per game. Having him at third didn't make the hitters come out of their two month-long slump.

He was horrible at 3b, and Ramirez became much better defensively when he was out. If its so imperitive he play for the Sox to win, how do you explain the Sox winning when he was gone? They have not been a good team when he has played. That's not overexaggeration, its a fact.

TheOldRoman
08-17-2010, 10:29 AM
He was horrible at 3b, and Ramirez became much better defensively when he was out. If its so imperitive he play for the Sox to win, how do you explain the Sox winning when he was gone? They have not been a good team when he has played. That's not overexaggeration, its a fact.I didn't make that claim, you made the exact opposite claim. Yes, Ramirez has played better with Omar beside him. However, having Teahen out of the lineup didn't make the pitching staff 1.5-2 runs better per game and didn't make the lineup hit.

LoveYourSuit
08-17-2010, 11:21 AM
Am I missing something or hasn't Teahen played every game since he's been back? I also don't recall anyone saying that he was NOT going to play every day.

And yes, he does give them flexibility by being able to play 3 positions. the problem with that is what?

Also, I think it's a little bit of an overreaction to say this team is "wasting away". They're going through a bad stretch of about a week or so which happens to EVERY team and it is not shocking. I'm sure the Twins will slow down a bit here in the next 7 weeks, so there's no point in freaking out just yet.


Unless you were sleeping during your pre and post game assignment at the time, you might have missed that the White Sox had a very bad stretch in April and May.

That bad stretch for a 2 month period has left us with very minimum room for error and one bad week like this past one is why people are freaking out. Meanwhile the Twins had a good start out of the gate and now have kind of gone on a similar run to the one we went into in June/July.

This series starting tonight is critical. 2 of 3 is almost a must for us.

kittle42
08-17-2010, 11:25 AM
Unless you were sleeping during your pre and post game assignment at the time, you might have missed that the White Sox had a very bad stretch in April and May.

That bad stretch for a 2 month period has left us with very minimum room for error and one bad week like this past one is why people are freaking out. Meanwhile the Twins had a good start out of the gate and now have kind of gone on a similar run to the one we went into in June/July.

This series starting tonight is critical. 2 of 3 is almost a must for us.

I won't be quite as gruff as LYS was, but the reason people have heavy concern is that this has really been a Jeckyll and Hyde team for much of the season, which has only recently (since the break) really started playing .500 ball. Yes, they could go either way (meaning, they could go back to being torrid again, as opposed to horrid), but now is not the time - against this team in particular (the Twins) - to be putzing around (pun intended?).

I think 1 of 3 is a must. 4 games back is not pretty, but not insurmountable. A sweep pretty much does 'em in, I think.

eriqjaffe
08-17-2010, 12:47 PM
However, having Teahen out of the lineup didn't make the pitching staff 1.5-2 runs better per gameTeahen & Ramirez was a far crappier left side of the infield than Vizquel & Ramirez has been - maybe not 1.5-2 RPG better, but still an improvement.

Largely, I think the Teahen/Winning thing is coincidental, much like how the Sox had a much better winning percentage when Pods was in the lineup, even if Pods wasn't playing well.

Slappy
08-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Am I missing something or hasn't Teahen played every game since he's been back? I also don't recall anyone saying that he was NOT going to play every day.

And yes, he does give them flexibility by being able to play 3 positions. the problem with that is what?

Also, I think it's a little bit of an overreaction to say this team is "wasting away". They're going through a bad stretch of about a week or so which happens to EVERY team and it is not shocking. I'm sure the Twins will slow down a bit here in the next 7 weeks, so there's no point in freaking out just yet.

Yeah, it was more of a preemptive rant. But the flexibility comment does still worry me. It sounds as if he's saying he'll use Teahen when Kotsay needs a rest or something. Plus, Ozzie has show a stubborn refusal to DH Quentin, so it looks like we're going to see Teahen sitting some nights for no reason. I hope I'm wrong.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 01:59 PM
I'm not freaking out, but saying its been a week or so is unrealistically optimistic. If they don't win the series in minnesota, it will be two weeks to the day. That hasn't happened yet, obviously, and may not. I'm just saying, they need to start playing better baseball soon.

Do you not see the contradiction here? You're telling me it's "optimistic" to say it's only been a week or so, yet you acknowledge that at the end of the Minnesota series it'll be 2 weeks. So, then wouldn't that make the present about "a week or so"? The Sox have lost 6 of their last 9. That's "a week or so". Prior to that, they won 10 of 13. This is a slump of a little over a week's worth of games.


The Sox went through a bad stretch for 2 months. I think the freak out is because everyone knows this team is capable of being bad for a very long time. But that's what its like to be a fan. When they are hot, you think they will never lose again. When they are not, you wonder if they will ever win.

One thing is for sure, they have to play better vs. their divisional opponents. This series is huge. Hopefully they can win at least a couple and use it as a springboard for the remainder of the season. At the very least, they have to get at least one of these. 6 games out would be pretty tough.

Unless you were sleeping during your pre and post game assignment at the time, you might have missed that the White Sox had a very bad stretch in April and May.

That bad stretch for a 2 month period has left us with very minimum room for error and one bad week like this past one is why people are freaking out. Meanwhile the Twins had a good start out of the gate and now have kind of gone on a similar run to the one we went into in June/July.

This series starting tonight is critical. 2 of 3 is almost a must for us.

I'm fully aware of what they did in April and May. I was there, dude. Every day. But, you're discounting that the Twins also went through a pretty subpar stretch of baseball this season (enough so that they allowed the Sox to overtake the lead when they were down 9.5). Obviously, the Sox went on an amazing run, but both teams are obviously capable of bad baseball. Not just the Sox. You have to acknowledge that.

Who knows what's going to happen in the last 7 weeks, but it's negative (not realistic) to think only the Sox have the ability to go through a bad stretch from here on out. They both can, just as they are both capable of good baseball.

The Twins are a good team with a better offense. The Sox are a good team with better pitching. Nobody is "wasting away" just yet.

Two of 3 is not a must, but it's preferred.

RedHeadPaleHoser
08-17-2010, 01:59 PM
Anywhere but Teahen at 3rd. Please. Please. Please.

dickallen15
08-17-2010, 02:52 PM
Do you not see the contradiction here? You're telling me it's "optimistic" to say it's only been a week or so, yet you acknowledge that at the end of the Minnesota series it'll be 2 weeks. So, then wouldn't that make the present about "a week or so"? The Sox have lost 6 of their last 9. That's "a week or so". Prior to that, they won 10 of 13. This is a slump of a little over a week's worth of games.






I'm fully aware of what they did in April and May. I was there, dude. Every day. But, you're discounting that the Twins also went through a pretty subpar stretch of baseball this season (enough so that they allowed the Sox to overtake the lead when they were down 9.5). Obviously, the Sox went on an amazing run, but both teams are obviously capable of bad baseball. Not just the Sox. You have to acknowledge that.

Who knows what's going to happen in the last 7 weeks, but it's negative (not realistic) to think only the Sox have the ability to go through a bad stretch from here on out. They both can, just as they are both capable of good baseball.

The Twins are a good team with a better offense. The Sox are a good team with better pitching. Nobody is "wasting away" just yet.

Two of 3 is not a must, but it's preferred.

1 of 3 at the very least is a must. I think they will win at least 2, but I thought they would win at least 2 each series the last homestand.

Another concern is reports the bullpen is worn down. They are one of the least used bullpens in baseball.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 03:57 PM
1 of 3 at the very least is a must. I think they will win at least 2, but I thought they would win at least 2 each series the last homestand.

Another concern is reports the bullpen is worn down. They are one of the least used bullpens in baseball.

I, too, don't know that they can afford to get swept. Six games out with 6 and a half weeks to play is not totally insurmountable, but it wouldn't look good.

The pen is pretty worn down, actually. It's not jsut about the amount of total innings thrown by the pen as a whole. That's the mistake people make when they look at the numbers. What's important is the recent workload for certain individuals. Putz and Thornton are pretty spent right now. Jenks obviously has his issues. It's the go-to guys that are tired.

Foulke You
08-17-2010, 04:46 PM
The pen is pretty worn down, actually. It's not jsut about the amount of total innings thrown by the pen as a whole. That's the mistake people make when they look at the numbers. What's important is the recent workload for certain individuals. Putz and Thornton are pretty spent right now. Jenks obviously has his issues. It's the go-to guys that are tired.
I agree about the bullpen Ranger. It also is the amount of STRESSFUL innings our bullpen guys have pitched the last couple months due to our problems on offense. We have played a lot of close ballgames this year with no margin for error by the bullpen. The extra inning affairs in Baltimore were a perfect example of our bullpen racking up stressful innings trying to keep us in the game with a chance to win. Freddy Garcia's recent struggles have not helped either.

Slappy
08-17-2010, 04:56 PM
I know I'm posting this in vain since Ranger sometimes conveniently doesn't respond to posts, but what happened today?

Does Teahen need a rest?

hi im skot
08-17-2010, 05:04 PM
I know I'm posting this in vain since Ranger sometimes conveniently doesn't respond to posts, but what happened today?

Yeah, it's almost like he has a job he has to do or something.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 05:30 PM
Teahen should be the full-time DH against RHP.

Against LHP, Quentin should DH and Jones should play RF, or Paulie should DH and Kotsay should play 1B.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 06:25 PM
I know I'm posting this in vain since Ranger sometimes conveniently doesn't respond to posts, but what happened today?

Does Teahen need a rest?

Yeah, I apologize for not hanging on your every typed word. I'm sure that if I did, I wouldn't be missing out on all of this knowledge.

I don't know why he's not in the lineup tonight. Maybe something is bothering him, like his elbow. Whatever it is, two things are for certain:

1) He's started 3 of 4 games since he's been back, and
2) They, in the dugout, are aware of everything that any of us have ever thought of. You think they don't know Teahen hits Baker pretty well? Of course they know that. They also know everything going on with every one of their players. Meaning, they know if something on him doesn't feel right.

I guess I have a little bit more respect for people in the game that when I'm confused by a particular lineup, my first thought is not, "what are these idiots doing???" My first thought is, "I wonder what's going on down there that I don't know?"

Coops4Aces
08-17-2010, 06:32 PM
Yeah, I apologize for not hanging on your every typed word. I'm sure that if I did, I wouldn't be missing out on all of this knowledge.

I don't know why he's not in the lineup tonight. Maybe something is bothering him, like his elbow. Whatever it is, two things are for certain:

1) He's started 3 of 4 games since he's been back, and
2) They, in the dugout, are aware of everything that any of us have ever thought of. You think they don't know Teahen hits Baker pretty well? Of course they know that. They also know everything going on with every one of their players. Meaning, they know if something on him doesn't feel right.

I guess I have a little bit more respect for people in the game that when I'm confused by a particular lineup, my first thought is not, "what are these idiots doing???" My first thought is, "I wonder what's going on down there that I don't know?"

I talked to a source with the team who filled me in on why Teahen isn't in the lineup. Teahen only needs 3 games per week and a total of 400 PAs this season. They don't want to overexpose him.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 06:39 PM
I talked to a source with the team who filled me in on why Teahen isn't in the lineup. Teahen only needs 3 games per week and a total of 400 PAs this season. They don't want to overexpose him.

Oh, I see. You're making a Viciedo joke. Hilarious. Nevermind the fact that you actually have nothing real with which to respond.

And, by the way, Viciedo DID get overexposed. Notice how terrible he was in the last several games he played?

Coops4Aces
08-17-2010, 06:50 PM
Oh, I see. You're making a Viciedo joke. Hilarious. Nevermind the fact that you actually have nothing real with which to respond.

And, by the way, Viciedo DID get overexposed. Notice how terrible he was in the last several games he played?

Or maybe it was that he kept getting thrown back on the bench after getting a start or two. Maybe that ruined his confidence?

Or maybe there was something personal going on that took his attention away from the team.

Or maybe he was nursing an injury.

You could be right, but you could also be completely wrong.

Kotsay is a joke. Him getting any time over Teahen or anyone else is a joke. The fact that ANYONE can continue to defend this just shows they aren't being objective. But he is an awesome clubhouse presence right? Well where has that veteran leadership been lately? The team is playing with no energy? Where is he to call these guys out?

I'm so tired of the Kotsay myth that gets shoved down our throats. Arguably the biggest game of the season and he is DHing and batting 6th. If anyone got overexposed, it's Kotsay...just by playing 1 ****ing game.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 07:03 PM
Or maybe it was that he kept getting thrown back on the bench after getting a start or two. Maybe that ruined his confidence?

Or maybe there was something personal going on that took his attention away from the team.

Or maybe he was nursing an injury.

You could be right, but you could also be completely wrong.

Kotsay is a joke. Him getting any time over Teahen or anyone else is a joke. The fact that ANYONE can continue to defend this just shows they aren't being objective. But he is an awesome clubhouse presence right? Well where has that veteran leadership been lately? The team is playing with no energy? Where is he to call these guys out?

I'm so tired of the Kotsay myth that gets shoved down our throats. Arguably the biggest game of the season and he is DHing and batting 6th. If anyone got overexposed, it's Kotsay...just by playing 1 ****ing game.

Well I know Viciedo wasn't injured. Unless he's hiding something. At any rate, they know exactly why he wasn't any good toward the end: he got figured out and he made zero adjustments. I know I'm not completely wrong, either.

As for Kotsay, there is no "myth," except that some people here are acting as if he's the worst player in the history of basbeall. Though he's not tearing up the league, he's also not been completley awful. He's hitting .260 for the last two months, and like I said, .355 in the last 8 games he's played. While I acknowledge he hasn't been terrific, I also recognize that he certainly isn't killing them. Let's stop acting like he's hitting .200 still.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 07:41 PM
Oh, I see. You're making a Viciedo joke. Hilarious. Nevermind the fact that you actually have nothing real with which to respond.

And, by the way, Viciedo DID get overexposed. Notice how terrible he was in the last several games he played?

Come on Ranger, don't insult us.

It's plainly obvious that Ozzie has had his favorites over the years; usually they are left-handed, low-power, low-OBP, journeyman hackers like Timo (who actually wasn't terrible), Erstad, Wise and now Kotsay.

Of course, as I type this, Kotsay homers to bring the score within one. :redface:

Daver
08-17-2010, 07:46 PM
If Teahen is going to play every day can it be for a different team?

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 07:50 PM
If Teahen is going to play every day can it be for a different team?

Given the alternatives currently on this roster, don't you think Teahen should be the primary DH against RHP?

Ranger
08-17-2010, 07:50 PM
Come on Ranger, don't insult us.

It's plainly obvious that Ozzie has had his favorites over the years; usually they are left-handed, low-power, low-OBP, journeyman hackers like Timo (who actually wasn't terrible), Erstad, Wise and now Kotsay.

Of course, as I type this, Kotsay homers to bring the score within one. :redface:

Come on, Frater, Kotsay doesn't have anything to do with Viciedo. IF it hadn't been for Vizquel playing as well as he had, Viciedo would've been playing a lot more than he was. At any rate, Coops4 was attempting to be smug about the idea that 400 PAs for Viciedo for a full season was considered good enough for a normal year of development. Coops4 obviously knows more about that than anyone that does player development for a living.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 07:51 PM
I just figured it out. Ozzie doesn't want Teahen to DH too much because he's not a good fielder!

:bandance:

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:00 PM
Come on, Frater, Kotsay doesn't have anything to do with Viciedo. IF it hadn't been for Vizquel playing as well as he had, Viciedo would've been playing a lot more than he was. At any rate, Coops4 was attempting to be smug about the idea that 400 PAs for Viciedo for a full season was considered good enough for a normal year of development. Coops4 obviously knows more about that than anyone that does player development for a living.

I don't have any problem with Vizquel playing most (or even all) of the time at third. He's clearly made a big difference defensively and he's been better than expected with the bat. I'd MUCH rather have Vizquel at third than Viciedo or Teahen.

My point was about Teahen. Why does Kotsay continue to get so damn many starts at DH?

Kotsay is 15th on the team in batting average. Only Jones and the starting pitchers have worse batting averages.

Kotsay is 12th on the team in slugging percentage.

Kotsay is 13th on the team in on-base percentage.

So why would Ozzie have Kotsay lead the team in starts and plate appearances as the DH, especially now that a better left-handed hitter - Teahen - has returned from the DL?

It's incomprehensible, inexcusable and indefensible.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-17-2010, 08:03 PM
If Teahen is going to play every day can it be for a different team?

Considering he has killed the Sox virtually single-handedly over his years with KC, I'd be careful what you wish for...

Come on, Frater, Kotsay doesn't have anything to do with Viciedo. IF it hadn't been for Vizquel playing as well as he had, Viciedo would've been playing a lot more than he was. At any rate, Coops4 was attempting to be smug about the idea that 400 PAs for Viciedo for a full season was considered good enough for a normal year of development. Coops4 obviously knows more about that than anyone that does player development for a living.

Yeah, Vizquel has been a fantastic player, playing far younger than his age would suggest. That I can understand why Viciedo didn't get many starts at 3rd. But DHing Kotsay over Viciedo has been one of the most mind-boggling moves I've ever seen Ozzie make. Outside of this little hot stretch he's been having, Kotsay has been terrible this year.

Yet, since Viciedo had a few bad games, instead of working with him and giving him a chance to work out his kinks in the majors (where he's shown he can hit), he's unceremoniously discarded into AAA, while Kotsay takes over. (I know, he was sent down for Teahen, but the larger point remains)

I mean, you might say "it's a pennant race, it's no time for a rookie to be learning how to hit under this much pressure"...but Mark Kotsay should be a DH for a contending team?

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:03 PM
Kotsay over Teahen at DH is worse than the decision to have Wise lead off and play CF. This is much worse than playing Mackowiak in CF. This is worse than playing Andy Gonzalez everywhere but his natural position of SS. This is worse than Erstad over BA. At least there were reasonable arguments to be made for each of those, even if each of them caused much disagreement here.

What arguments are made for Kotsay over Teahen at DH against RHP?

That Ozzie knows better than us because he has more information that us?

Really?

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:07 PM
Oh, and don't try the "Kotsay needs regular ABs to stay sharp" argument.

In fact, Kotsay has been a very effective pinch hitter throughout his career, suggesting that perhaps he is much BETTER when given limited pinch hitting duty than he is as a starter. The facts would seem to suggest he DOES NOT need regular ABs to stay sharp, and perhaps even than regular ABs (at least at this stage in his career) make him a WORSE hitter.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 08:10 PM
I don't have any problem with Vizquel playing most (or even all) of the time at third. He's clearly made a big difference defensively and he's been better than expected with the bat. I'd MUCH rather have Vizquel at third than Viciedo or Teahen.

My point was about Teahen. Why does Kotsay continue to get so damn many starts at DH?

Kotsay is 15th on the team in batting average. Only Jones and the starting pitchers have worse batting averages.

Kotsay is 12th on the team in slugging percentage.

Kotsay is 13th on the team in on-base percentage.

So why would Ozzie have Kotsay lead the team in starts and plate appearances as the DH, especially now that a better left-handed hitter - Teahen - has returned from the DL?

It's incomprehensible, inexcusable and indefensible.

Kotsay over Teahen at DH is worse than the decision to have Wise lead off and play CF. This is much worse than playing Mackowiak in CF. This is worse than playing Andy Gonzalez everywhere but his natural position of SS. This is worse than Erstad over BA. At least there were reasonable arguments to be made for each of those, even if each of them caused much disagreement here.

What arguments are made for Kotsay over Teahen at DH against RHP?

That Ozzie knows better than us because he has more information that us?

Really?

First of all, you're saying he DOESN'T have more information than the rest of us? As in, who's banged up, who needs a day, what's going on with certian guys that would necessitate a day off? You think you know that stuff better than he does? I'm impressed if you do.

Second, let's not act like this is some sort of trend. Kotsay has started exactly ONE time over Teahen. Teahen has started 3 of 4 games. Again, I don't know why he didn't start tonight, but so far it has worked out just fine.

Third, and most importantly, you have to forget about the first two months of the season because they are irrelevant now. Kotsay is not the same hitter now that he was then...same thing goes for Beckham, Pierre, Alexei and Vizquel. All that matters now is the current trend, and the current trend is that Kotsay has been a respectable hitter over the last few weeks, and he's been VERY good over the last week or so. He hasn't been godawful lately.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-17-2010, 08:18 PM
Third, and most importantly, you have to forget about the first two months of the season because they are irrelevant now. Kotsay is not the same hitter now that he was then...same thing goes for Beckham, Pierre, Alexei and Vizquel. All that matters now is the current trend, and the current trend is that Kotsay has been a respectable hitter over the last few weeks, and he's been VERY good over the last week or so. He hasn't been godawful.

OK, so you're telling us to discard a larger body of work in favor of a smaller sample size?

Come on, Ranger. You're a smart guy. You should know as well as anyone that that is the worst thing to do, is to judge by a current trend. All that shows is that he has the capability to do it...but the larger body of work shows that he is simply not a reliable hitter, especially for the role that he is being asked to do.

Coops4Aces
08-17-2010, 08:18 PM
I just figured it out. Ozzie doesn't want Teahen to DH too much because he's not a good fielder!

:bandance:

You win this thread :D:

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:20 PM
First of all, you're saying he DOESN'T have more information than the rest of us? As in, who's banged up, who needs a day, what's going on with certian guys that would necessitate a day off? You think you know that stuff better than he does? I'm impressed if you do.

Second, let's not act like this is some sort of trend. Kotsay has started exactly ONE time over Teahen. Teahen has started 3 of 4 games. Again, I don't know why he didn't start tonight, but so far it has worked out just fine.

Third, and most importantly, you have to forget about the first two months of the season because they are irrelevant now. Kotsay is not the same hitter now that he was then...same thing goes for Beckham, Pierre, Alexei and Vizquel. All that matters now is the current trend, and the current trend is that Kotsay has been a respectable hitter over the last few weeks, and he's been VERY good over the last week or so. He hasn't been godawful lately.

Where did I say I have more information than Ozzie?

If Kotsay has been very good over the last week or so, Teahen has been better.

Some kind of injury or illness is the only excuse for Ozzie to DH Kotsay over Teahen.

Oh, and I don't want Teahen at 3B more than is absolutely necessary to give Vizquel a rest.

But I don't want Kotsay to DH at all, ever again, unless injury or illness require it.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:21 PM
Maybe I need to keep ripping on Kotsay. He just doubled. :redface:

Coops4Aces
08-17-2010, 08:23 PM
Maybe I need to keep ripping on Kotsay. He just doubled. :redface:
I remember the same thing happening with me and Joe Crede.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:41 PM
I remember the same thing happening with me and Joe Crede.

But at least Joe Crede was excellent defensively.

If your DH doesn't hit, he's worthless.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 08:49 PM
Dang it. I forgot to rip on Kotsay, and he grounded out to second base.

If only I had said he sucked, he might have hit a grand slam.

His good night tonight only shows that sometimes it's better for your manager to be lucky than good.

Ranger
08-17-2010, 08:56 PM
OK, so you're telling us to discard a larger body of work in favor of a smaller sample size?

Come on, Ranger. You're a smart guy. You should know as well as anyone that that is the worst thing to do, is to judge by a current trend. All that shows is that he has the capability to do it...but the larger body of work shows that he is simply not a reliable hitter, especially for the role that he is being asked to do.

Yes, I'm saying recent trend matters more than what any player did in April and May. Of course it matters more, especially when you're looking at several weeks of a trend. The types of ABs and results he is getting now are much more pertinent to the present than those ABs and results from 4 months ago. Same goes for any player. Like Freddy, for example. Does it matter RIGHT NOW that he was so good in the early part of the year? Freddy is not now the pitcher he was early in the year. If you're saying the trend is not more important, you're mistaken.


Where did I say I have more information than Ozzie?

If Kotsay has been very good over the last week or so, Teahen has been better.

Some kind of injury or illness is the only excuse for Ozzie to DH Kotsay over Teahen.

Oh, and I don't want Teahen at 3B more than is absolutely necessary to give Vizquel a rest.

But I don't want Kotsay to DH at all, ever again, unless injury or illness require it.

In your argument against me, you said:

"That Ozzie knows better than us because he has more information that us? Really?"

You seem to be implying that it was ludicrous to suggest Ozzie has more information than we do.

oeo
08-17-2010, 09:08 PM
Dang it. I forgot to rip on Kotsay, and he grounded out to second base.

If only I had said he sucked, he might have hit a grand slam.

His good night tonight only shows that sometimes it's better for your manager to be lucky than good.

Except the fact that he's slugging .538 this month (before tonight). He's hot, Ozzie played him and it paid off.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 09:30 PM
In your argument against me, you said:

"That Ozzie knows better than us because he has more information that us? Really?"

You seem to be implying that it was ludicrous to suggest Ozzie has more information than we do.

I should have said that your argument is very weak if the best defense you can offer is, "Ozzie has more information than we do."

People with more information than us still make bad decisions.

Tonight, playing Kotsay was a bad decision that so far has paid off. Sometimes Mike Jackson, Rick White and Ryan Buckvich pitched scoreless innings; sometimes Mackowiak actually caught up to a fly ball in the gap; sometimes Wise came up with a nice hit or catch; sometimes Kotsay comes through with a nice game; sometimes someone beats the dealer at blackjack in Las Vegas.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 09:33 PM
If the best argument that can be mustered is, "The manager has more information than we do," is there ever a time when Ozzie - or any manager of any major or minor league or college or high school or pony league team - or any coach in any professional or amateur sport whatsoever - can be criticized?

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2010, 09:37 PM
One more question -

Because a manager or coach has more information than we do, is it ever possible for someone outside the organization to identify a bad decision made by that manager or coach?

soxinem1
08-17-2010, 09:55 PM
Its ironic the thing that a lot of people said would make Teahen a better player, just playing one position (3B) is now the exact opposite. What is the Sox record with Teahen in the line up? He's a terrible, terrible, defensive 3B, but also horrid in RF. He strikes out a ton. He's just not very good. Maybe better offensively than Kotsay, but that's not saying much. I'm sure KW rues the day he gave Teahen an extension.

Well said. Couldn't have put it any better.

Slappy
08-18-2010, 02:47 AM
Come on, Frater, Kotsay doesn't have anything to do with Viciedo. IF it hadn't been for Vizquel playing as well as he had, Viciedo would've been playing a lot more than he was. At any rate, Coops4 was attempting to be smug about the idea that 400 PAs for Viciedo for a full season was considered good enough for a normal year of development. Coops4 obviously knows more about that than anyone that does player development for a living.

Everyone knows Viciedo was brought up because Teahen was injured. What is your point?

It's hard to tell if you know this and you're deliberately spreading misinformation or you're just that clueless....

russ99
08-18-2010, 07:13 AM
Kotsay over Teahen at DH is worse than the decision to have Wise lead off and play CF. This is much worse than playing Mackowiak in CF. This is worse than playing Andy Gonzalez everywhere but his natural position of SS. This is worse than Erstad over BA. At least there were reasonable arguments to be made for each of those, even if each of them caused much disagreement here.

What arguments are made for Kotsay over Teahen at DH against RHP?

That Ozzie knows better than us because he has more information that us?

Really?

I love how your entire argument about Ozzie's supposed lack of any kind of player evaluation skills and why Kotsay is at DH over Teahen (or Viciedo or the bat boy) all revolve around how Anderson got a raw deal. Sadly, you're not the only one either.

Anderson couldn't produce, plain and simple. This is why Wise, Erstad, Mackowiak and Owens got more playing time, not because they were Ozzie's favorites.

Other than the home run, Teahen looked terrible this weekend with his many strikeouts. But I guess one homer is enough reason for anyone to DH.

His good night tonight only shows that sometimes it's better for your manager to be lucky than good.

It's obvious you have an axe to grind here. The guy has a good night and you call Ozzie "lucky". :rolleyes:

ewokpelts
08-18-2010, 07:39 AM
sox are now 1-3 since teahen returned.

Frater Perdurabo
08-18-2010, 06:28 PM
I love how your entire argument about Ozzie's supposed lack of any kind of player evaluation skills and why Kotsay is at DH over Teahen (or Viciedo or the bat boy) all revolve around how Anderson got a raw deal. Sadly, you're not the only one either.

Anderson couldn't produce, plain and simple. This is why Wise, Erstad, Mackowiak and Owens got more playing time, not because they were Ozzie's favorites.

Other than the home run, Teahen looked terrible this weekend with his many strikeouts. But I guess one homer is enough reason for anyone to DH.

It's obvious you have an axe to grind here. The guy has a good night and you call Ozzie "lucky". :rolleyes:

When you can't refute an argument, you attack the person making the argument.

Kotsay has nothing to do with BA.

But the favored treatment Kotsay undeservedly receives confirms what many of us previously concluded based on earlier evidence: Ozzie is a poor judge of hitting talent and tends to coddle crappy veterans.

russ99
08-18-2010, 06:47 PM
When you can't refute an argument, you attack the person making the argument.

Kotsay has nothing to do with BA.

But the favored treatment Kotsay undeservedly receives confirms what many of us previously concluded based on earlier evidence: Ozzie is a poor judge of hitting talent and tends to coddle crappy veterans.

Ozzie's been utilizing the only lefthanded hitter he has on the bench. And since Teahen is back, Kotsay was DH in only one game, since he's working his other lefthanded bat into the lineup as well.

Show me any other earlier evidence of someone that Ozzie given playing time to that shows he's a "poor judge of talent" and "coddles crappy veterans" that doesn't involve a player who was put in place of Anderson.

This is my point, it's not directly about Anderson, but people are using the players forced into more playing time as his replacements as the sole argument that Ozzie can't judge talent and plays favorites.

Erstad was signed for the bench, Mackowiak was signed for the bench, Wise was signed for the bench, Kotsay was signed for the bench. If a guy's on the roster, I'm not going to assume that the manager shouldn't use him when plan A doesn't work out.

BTW - Sorry if my comments seemed like an attack. Everyone's certainly entitled to their opinion.

ewokpelts
08-19-2010, 08:04 AM
sox 1-4 since teahen came back