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View Full Version : *Official* Pitiful 8/15 Postgame


october23sp
08-15-2010, 04:38 PM
3 Back now.

johnnyg83
08-15-2010, 04:40 PM
What is Ozzie's record in August?

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:41 PM
That...man. God damn. You can't go 2-4 on homestands and expect to make the playoffs. You can't give up leads in the late innings and expect to make the playoffs. You can't drop series to the likes of the Tigers and the Orioles and expect to make the playoffs. You can't lose to your rivals like the Twins the way we do and expect to make the playoffs.

This team isn't limping into Minnesota, it is crawling in. This is about the time the season fell apart last year too.

stevied23
08-15-2010, 04:41 PM
They better right the ship pretty quick or that Minnesota series could effectively end the season.

thomas35forever
08-15-2010, 04:42 PM
I'll be honest. My confidence in this team has gone way down over the past week. Now we have to go to Minnesota and that could be the final dagger in our season if we let the Twins double their lead over us, which is a very real possibility. Ugh, this sucks.:(:

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 04:42 PM
I've got my popcorn ready for this thread. Brutal game was brutal. Lucky me, I tuned in right when it all fell apart.

No bueno.

Dan H
08-15-2010, 04:42 PM
Pathetic. The absolute ugliest game of the year. No excuse for losing two games in a row in the late innings. There aren't enough bad things to say about the White Sox today.

SpartanSoxFan
08-15-2010, 04:42 PM
Maybe Ozzie will blab to the media about a controversial issue involving Major League Baseball in hopes of focusing his team so they can win a big divisional series. Oh, wait, he already tried that.

thomas35forever
08-15-2010, 04:43 PM
This is about the time the season fell apart last year too.
We're not quite there yet, but it's pretty close. I think the series in New York last year was when the bottom fell out.

johnnyg83
08-15-2010, 04:43 PM
WE have our three best SPs going so we definitely have a chance to win every game.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 04:43 PM
We're not quite there yet, but it's pretty close. I think the series in New York last year was when the bottom fell out.

Luckily, we still have a fighting chance. Just ****ing do it, boys.

SoxSpeed22
08-15-2010, 04:43 PM
****. This team picked a bad time to crash back down to Earth.

Slappy
08-15-2010, 04:43 PM
This team is poo poo.

thomas35forever
08-15-2010, 04:44 PM
****. This team picked a bad time to crash back down to Earth.
Especially with Minnesota being the hottest team in the league right now.

Tragg
08-15-2010, 04:45 PM
IN a game with 17 runs scored and 22 hits, the manager decides to give away one of the 6 remaining outs and bunt for 1 run. That is pure ego. That is nonsense.


Williams is going to have a hell of a job this offseason plugging holes at Catcher, 3B, LF, RF and finding a replacement for Paulie. And he can't do it with another edition of kotsay and wise. He's going to have to do a lot better than what he got out of his trades the last 2+ years.

But at least that clubhouse chemistry is pleasant and respectful.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:45 PM
We're not quite there yet, but it's pretty close. I think the series in New York last year was when the bottom fell out.

For me it was Ortiz hit a little dribbler that Contreras couldn't get to with the bases loaded. That was August 24th.

This team's inability to beat the AL Central is killing this team.

Frater Perdurabo
08-15-2010, 04:45 PM
This week has been a disaster.

Martinigirl
08-15-2010, 04:46 PM
WE have our three best SPs going so we definitely have a chance to win every game.

The starting pitching hasn't been the issue, so unless we expect every starter to throw a complete game, we do have reason for concern.

Dan H
08-15-2010, 04:46 PM
WE have our three best SPs going so we definitely have a chance to win every game.

Normally I would agree with you but the bullpen is imploding. The offense did some good things against the Tigers but the Twins aren't the Tigers. 8 runs in the last three innings? No excuse for that. None. BP for the Tigers today.

thomas35forever
08-15-2010, 04:46 PM
Williams is going to have a hell of a job this offseason plugging holes at Catcher, 3B, LF, RF and finding a replacement for Paulie. And he can't do it with another edition of kotsay and wise. He's going to have to do a lot better than what he got out of his trades the last 2+ years.
You don't think the Sox will try and re-sign Paulie? You're talking as if this team will be blown up.

lukeman89
08-15-2010, 04:46 PM
they can erase all of this horrible play from this past week and a half by sweeping the twinkies. we will leave there either even, down 2, down 4, or down 6 (ickk)

Red Barchetta
08-15-2010, 04:47 PM
Hot streak or no hot streak, you can't lose 3 of 4 in Baltimore against arguably one of the worst teams in baseball, come home and lose 4 of 6 against the Twins and Tigers.

They better show some backbone in Minneapolis! :angry:

Foulke You
08-15-2010, 04:47 PM
I really thought we were going to win it after Paulie jacked that HR to put us up 7-5. The only bullpen pitcher who was sharp today was Chris Sale. Ozzie not putting Thornton in the 9th was a strange decision. Just an ugly game. It's pretty simple now, this team needs to show up at Target Field on Tuesday to save their season.

Slappy
08-15-2010, 04:47 PM
http://i.imgur.com/qPxnO.jpg


Hey Paul, 'member that time when the Sox were in first place? Yeah. That was ahsum...

soltrain21
08-15-2010, 04:48 PM
Bullpen is looking tired. Hopefully they can right the ship. Let's take the series in Minnesota.

Frater Perdurabo
08-15-2010, 04:48 PM
You don't think the Sox will try and re-sign Paulie? You're talking as if this team will be blown up.

With the season he's had, other teams are going to drive up his asking price. If the Sox want to keep him, they likely will have to offer him an extension before the arbitration period opens.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:49 PM
Hot streak or no hot streak, you can't lose 3 of 4 in Baltimore against arguably one of the worst teams in baseball, come how and lose 4 of 6 against the Twins and Tigers.

They better show some backbone in Minneapolis! :angry:

No excuse for the way we've been playing. This team doesn't do well in Minnesota. It's a rough place for this team to show backbone.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-15-2010, 04:49 PM
In a game where the opposition scores 13 runs, Ozzie sacrifice bunts TWICE.

Nice

Slappy
08-15-2010, 04:50 PM
Bullpen is looking tired. Hopefully they can right the ship. Let's take the series in Minnesota.

Any way we can steer this ship back towards the national league somehow instead?

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 04:50 PM
In a game where the opposition scores 13 runs, Ozzie sacrifice bunts TWICE.

Nice

Yeah. Those are what lost us the game. The bunts.

johnnyg83
08-15-2010, 04:50 PM
Normally I would agree with you but the bullpen is imploding. The offense did some good things against the Tigers but the Twins aren't the Tigers. 8 runs in the last three innings? No excuse for that. None. BP for the Tigers today.

I only said "a chance"

LoveYourSuit
08-15-2010, 04:50 PM
All of a sudden Twins pitching is hot. They are pitching better than us. That aspect of the game was the only hope I had and now it appears they have that over us going down the stretch. Plus Morneu coming back.

3 games doesn't sound like that much, but that's a big hole right now IMO based on:

1) Our current bullpen implosion (thank you Bobby Jenks)
2) Our very suspect offense
3) Getting nothing out of Freddy Garcia lately.


Starting to look a lot more like April and May here.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 04:51 PM
Any way we can steer this ship back towards the national league somehow instead?

We can switch. Cubs play our games, we'll play theirs. Make it happen, Uncle Bud.

TheOldRoman
08-15-2010, 04:52 PM
I was gone on vacation last week. I cam back on Monday night, turned on the game, and it looked like Putz had put on 25 pounds since I last saw him. What is up with that?

Are we at the point were we, as rational fans, should call Putz a piece of ****? Should we tell him to **** off yet, should we insinuate he started drinking which is making him pitch bad, or should we hang tight for a while longer? The Sox probably should have traded Putz when they had the chance in July.

soltrain21
08-15-2010, 04:52 PM
If there was no energy, Ozzie, then why didn't you do something about it?

Foulke You
08-15-2010, 04:52 PM
For me it was Ortiz hit a little dribbler that Contreras couldn't get to with the bases loaded. That was August 24th.

This team's inability to beat the AL Central is killing this team.
Agreed on both points you made. That game at Fenway is always the one I think of when I think about when things started to slip away in 2009. All those losses to Cleveland and KC earlier in the year are biting us in the behind right now.

Slappy
08-15-2010, 04:52 PM
Twins or Padres. Pick your poison...

theamb
08-15-2010, 04:52 PM
The Twins are just as hot as we were for the past few months.

However, we're starting to tail off.

soltrain21
08-15-2010, 04:53 PM
I was gone on vacation last week. I cam back on Monday night, turned on the game, and it looked like Putz had put on 25 pounds since I last saw him. What is up with that?

Are we at the point were we, as rational fans, should call Putz a piece of ****? Should we tell him to **** off yet, should we insinuate he started drinking which is making him pitch bad, or should we hang tight for a while longer? The Sox probably should have traded Putz when they had the chance in July.

I see what you did there.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 04:53 PM
If there was no energy, Ozzie, then why didn't you do something about it?

Gotta wonder, though, if the lack of off days is affecting them. They haven't had one in quite awhile, since right before the series in Detroit I think. I really think that affected their play.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:53 PM
If there was no energy, Ozzie, then why didn't you do something about it?

What the hell can a manager do about that? Throw some ****?

TheOldRoman
08-15-2010, 04:54 PM
All of a sudden Twins pitching is hot. They are pitching better than us. That aspect of the game was the only hope I had and now it appears they have that over us going down the stretch. Plus Morneu coming back.

3 games doesn't sound like that much, but that's a big hole right now IMO based on:

1) Our current bullpen implosion (thank you Bobby Jenks)
2) Our very suspect offense
3) Getting nothing out of Freddy Garcia lately.


Starting to look a lot more like April and May here.That is awesome. I didn't realize Bobby was powerful enough to make Putz blow games. Maybe we should bring him back next year just so he doesn't get pissed at the Sox and work us over with voodoo dolls.

soltrain21
08-15-2010, 04:54 PM
Gotta wonder, though, if the lack of off days is affecting them. They haven't had one in quite awhile, since right before the series in Detroit I think. I really think that affected their play.

Eh. Every team goes through tons of game with no off days. They just aren't getting it done right now.

Slappy
08-15-2010, 04:54 PM
Ozzie just hung Cooper out to dry. Snap...

So the reason for no Thornton vs. Damon is a missing Coop? C'mon Oz.

Dan H
08-15-2010, 04:55 PM
In a game where the opposition scores 13 runs, Ozzie sacrifice bunts TWICE.

Nice

I agree. That bunt in the 8th only gave up an out. You had a pitcher who gave up a homer and walked the next hitter, and Ozzie is bunting. Great call. This guy reminds me of Coach Neil Armstrong of the Bears. Fourth Quarter, Bears down 48-14 and they have the ball on the seven yard line on fourth down. And Armstrong kicked a field goal. Maybe we can put some uprights in center field.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-15-2010, 04:55 PM
Yeah. Those are what lost us the game. The bunts.

They were really helpful. Outs. Just give em away.

soltrain21
08-15-2010, 04:55 PM
What the hell can a manager do about that? Throw some ****?

Get ran. Motivate them. Tell them what they are playing for? I don't know. I always assumed part of a manager's job was to not make sure people were going through the motions.

There is more to it than pitching changes and sacrifice bunts.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 04:56 PM
They were really helpful. Outs. Just give em away.

I guess, but really. 8 runs should be enough to win a game. The pitching just didn't come through.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:57 PM
That is awesome. I didn't realize Bobby was powerful enough to make Putz blow games. Maybe we should bring him back next year just so he doesn't get pissed at the Sox and work us over with voodoo dolls.

Well Bobby has been imploding all year, but think of the games he's cost us where somebody has had to come in and throw more innings, whether it's in the ninth or in extra innings. That comes back to bite you. Also the fact that Bobby isn't available right now hurts too. It's one less guy you have out there even if it's only for garbage time.

chisoxfanatic
08-15-2010, 04:57 PM
Kinda glad my boyfriend wanted to watch golf and we went to the mall...That box score looks ugly.

LoveYourSuit
08-15-2010, 04:57 PM
That is awesome. I didn't realize Bobby was powerful enough to make Putz blow games. Maybe we should bring him back next year just so he doesn't get pissed at the Sox and work us over with voodoo dolls.

No, but Bobby's inability to secure that closer position and stay healthy has completely ruined the one good thing we had going which was the bullpen. It happens every year when this guy gets hurt, it just ****s everyhting up and I'm tired of the Sox depending on this guy every year to hold down that closer's role.

Noneck
08-15-2010, 04:58 PM
I was gone on vacation last week. I cam back on Monday night, turned on the game, and it looked like Putz had put on 25 pounds since I last saw him. What is up with that?

Are we at the point were we, as rational fans, should call Putz a piece of ****? Should we tell him to **** off yet, should we insinuate he started drinking which is making him pitch bad, or should we hang tight for a while longer? The Sox probably should have traded Putz when they had the chance in July.

Putz was a lightening in a bottle acquisition and he has provided more than was expected of him this year. Comparing his downfall with the teams highly paid closer is ridiculous.

TheOldRoman
08-15-2010, 04:58 PM
Well Bobby has been imploding all year, but think of the games he's cost us where somebody has had to come in and throw more innings, whether it's in the ninth or in extra innings. That comes back to bite you. Also the fact that Bobby isn't available right now hurts too. It's one less guy you have out there even if it's only for garbage time.Sorry, Bobby had nothing to do with Putz pitching like garbage his last three appearances.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:58 PM
They were really helpful. Outs. Just give em away.

Yea, that's not why we lost this game. If your bullpen is giving up runs in the 8th and 9th you're not going to win many games. Anyone who suggests the sixth is why we lost this game is either just hates Ozzie so much as to be blinded by all reality or are upset that Beckham didn't get an RBI to help their fantasy team.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 04:59 PM
Sorry, Bobby had nothing to do with Putz pitching like garbage his last three appearances.

You're right there but if Bobby could pitch worth what he is getting paid we wouldn't have to use Putz in closing roles, would we?

LoveYourSuit
08-15-2010, 05:01 PM
Sorry, Bobby had nothing to do with Putz pitching like garbage his last three appearances.


When Linebrink had to take over the closer role in 2008 because the big man could not answer the bell (once again injury), that screwed up Linebrink as a pretty damn good set up man at the time. Linebrink has not been the same since.

EdHerman12
08-15-2010, 05:02 PM
Man, they worked so darned hard to come back after PKs' HR then the bull pen blows up...again...Well...I don't want to be negative, but if they crash and burn in Minny they're in deep trouble because they still have a 10 game road trip to Cleveland, Boston, and Detroit at the beginning of next month, and then another trip out west to Oakland and Anahiem toward the end of Sept...in between those two trips they still have KC, the Twins, and Tigers coming back in here again...

My heart would love to see a sweep this week at Target, but my head tells me they way things are going.....not!

Keep the faith!

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 05:02 PM
When Linebrink had to take over the closer role in 2008 because the big man could not answer the bell (once again injury), that screwed up Linebrink as a pretty damn good set up man at the time. Linebrink has not been the same since.

Linebrink's injury had more to do with it, IMO.

1989
08-15-2010, 05:02 PM
IN a game with 17 runs scored and 22 hits, the manager decides to give away one of the 6 remaining outs and bunt for 1 run. That is pure ego. That is nonsense.


Williams is going to have a hell of a job this offseason plugging holes at Catcher, 3B, LF, RF and finding a replacement for Paulie. And he can't do it with another edition of kotsay and wise. He's going to have to do a lot better than what he got out of his trades the last 2+ years.

But at least that clubhouse chemistry is pleasant and respectful.

Resign AJ to a one year deal, Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, Mark Teahen, and resign Konerko.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2010, 05:03 PM
When Linebrink had to take over the closer role in 2008 because the big man could not answer the bell (once again injury), that screwed up Linebrink as a pretty damn good set up man at the time. Linebrink has not been the same since.

Eh, Linebrink was coming off of a dead arm in 2007 and had already racked up a lot of innings in the first half. Plus Bobby was lights out in '08. I'm not going to blame Bobby for Linebrink falling apart.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-15-2010, 05:03 PM
I guess, but really. 8 runs should be enough to win a game. The pitching just didn't come through.

It should and I agree the pitching didn't come through. That doesn't mean,however, that the manager should be helping the opposition's pitchers along to the 27 outs. It gets frustrating watching the manager constantly trying to overly insert himself into the game. Anyone who watches or manages the White Sox should know that one run doesn't mean squat at the Cell.

LoveYourSuit
08-15-2010, 05:05 PM
Resign AJ to a one year deal, Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, Mark Teahen, and resign Konerko.
:puking:

BringHomeDaBacon
08-15-2010, 05:06 PM
Yea, that's not why we lost this game. If your bullpen is giving up runs in the 8th and 9th you're not going to win many games. Anyone who suggests the sixth is why we lost this game is either just hates Ozzie so much as to be blinded by all reality or are upset that Beckham didn't get an RBI to help their fantasy team.

Between hitting ninth and sacrifice bunting, Beckham didn't get a chance to swing the bat in the final FIVE innings of the game.

theamb
08-15-2010, 05:07 PM
:puking:

Seeing how weak the C market is, might have to.

And I would forget about Crawford unless Jerry is willing to pony up.

Detroit and New York should be targeting him hard.

1989
08-15-2010, 05:08 PM
:puking:

My bad, Victor Martinez

Rikirk
08-15-2010, 05:08 PM
We still need clutch hitting and a respectable closer....
Maybe some decent relief pitching...

Martinigirl
08-15-2010, 05:09 PM
All of a sudden Twins pitching is hot. They are pitching better than us. That aspect of the game was the only hope I had and now it appears they have that over us going down the stretch. Plus Morneu coming back.

3 games doesn't sound like that much, but that's a big hole right now IMO based on:

1) Our current bullpen implosion (thank you Bobby Jenks)
2) Our very suspect offense
3) Getting nothing out of Freddy Garcia lately.


Starting to look a lot more like April and May here.

I think you might need to thank JJ Putz as well.

hi im skot
08-15-2010, 05:19 PM
Cool homestand, bros.

Brian26
08-15-2010, 05:20 PM
Resign AJ to a one year deal, Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, Mark Teahen, and resign Konerko.

:rolling:

pudge
08-15-2010, 05:36 PM
Between hitting ninth and sacrifice bunting, Beckham didn't get a chance to swing the bat in the final FIVE innings of the game.

I am the first to jump all over sacrifice bunting, because I hate it, but really, this game was not lost on sac bunts. Freddy Garcia pitched like a #5, the bullpen just blows right now, and yesterday when we got good pitching, the offense couldn't drive in a clutch run.

It's just bad, bad mojo. This week *might* be the beginning of the end, but hopefully not.

WhiteSox1989
08-15-2010, 05:40 PM
That sucked.

WSox597
08-15-2010, 05:45 PM
I am the first to jump all over sacrifice bunting, because I hate it, but really, this game was not lost on sac bunts. Freddy Garcia pitched like a #5, the bullpen just blows right now, and yesterday when we got good pitching, the offense couldn't drive in a clutch run.

It's just bad, bad mojo. This week *might* be the beginning of the end, but hopefully not.

I had the same thought while watching bits and pieces of this game. It might be the beginning of the end.

Losing to the O's, than the Twins, followed by all teams the Tigers, is not good news. This might be the time we all remember as the time the wheels came off for the season.

Hopefully, they'll snap out of it in Target Field.

EMachine10
08-15-2010, 05:50 PM
At least Sale looked good.

guillensdisciple
08-15-2010, 05:50 PM
have to win or sweep the next series or we're done.

That is all.

Don't make it this year, and you clean management house. That is all.

Tragg
08-15-2010, 05:57 PM
Resign AJ to a one year deal, Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, Mark Teahen, and resign Konerko.

LOL
More like re-sign Kotsay, AJ, and trade for Lyle Overbay. We spent most of the Konkero savings on Jackson (Ozzie can't have a young pitcher in a pennant race).
We already have Teahen locked up for 2 more years at only $10 million, so that one's done.
We should have $10 mill or so for free agents. But to get a legitimate outfielder (or 2) and first baseman, we'll probably have to trade Danks or Floyd and move Sale into the rotation....OR raise the budget by $30 mill.

LoveYourSuit
08-15-2010, 06:00 PM
LOL
More like re-sign Kotsay, AJ, and trade for Lyle Overbay. We spent most of the Konkero savings on Jackson (Ozzie can't have a young pitcher in a pennant race).
We already have Teahen locked up for 2 more years at only $10 million, so that one's done.
We should have $10 mill or so for free agents. But to get a legitimate outfielder (or 2) and first baseman, we'll probably have to trade Danks or Floyd and move Sale into the rotation....OR raise the budget by $30 mill.


Once again, as of 08/15/2010, MLB's CBA does not have a salary cap.

The Sox can do whatever they want.

BleacherBandit
08-15-2010, 06:04 PM
Was anyone at the ballpark for this game? LOVED how everyone started to leave after the two Jones misplays.

LoveYourSuit
08-15-2010, 06:05 PM
Was anyone at the ballpark for this game? LOVED how everyone started to leave after the two Jones misplays.


I think Jones should no longer play CF.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2010, 06:11 PM
Was anyone at the ballpark for this game? LOVED how everyone started to leave after the two Jones misplays.

I mentioned this earlier in the gamethread, but I really wanted to attend this game. I was looking forward to it because it was a day game. Thank God my manager scheduled me to work today.

Tragg
08-15-2010, 07:09 PM
Once again, as of 08/15/2010, MLB's CBA does not have a salary cap.


But the JR CBA does.

DumpJerry
08-15-2010, 07:36 PM
But the JR CBA does.
It does? Sp, when he says that Kenny can spend to get someone who will be a difference maker he is really saying "I have a salary cap"?

JR is not into throwing money at gambles. If KW is going to spend a king's ransom, then it has to be an established player.

Soxman219
08-15-2010, 08:38 PM
Rios would have caught that ball, why wasn't he playing out there in the 8th?

mcsoxfan
08-15-2010, 08:46 PM
Yeah. Those are what lost us the game. The bunts.

We lost this game like we've lost most games under the Guillen regime because of his incomprehensible and dumbfounding in-game decision making and the woefully amaturish mishandling of the pitching staff.

His best managing was the 2005 World Series because he was invisible. He had a set of hot starters. He got out of the way and allowed the players to play.

Should the Sox ever start winning again this year, notice how many times you won't even say Guillen's name.

canOcorn
08-15-2010, 08:50 PM
I am the first to jump all over sacrifice bunting, because I hate it, but really, this game was not lost on sac bunts.

No, this game wasn't lost on sac bunts. I think fans are just upset that we lost and Ozzie feels the need to prove time and time again that he's a mental midget.

But the JR CBA does.

Got that right. JR isn't making a significant bump in payroll until he decides to lower his profit margin because there's not going to be a significant bump in revenue next year.

canOcorn
08-15-2010, 08:53 PM
It does? Sp, when he says that Kenny can spend to get someone who will be a difference maker he is really saying "I have a salary cap"?



When Kenny says I can't spend a dollar because I don't have $.50, I'm guessing he has a cap on spending. :shrug:

guillensdisciple
08-15-2010, 08:56 PM
Damn, I really want to say something negative, but I'll keep my fingers off the keyboard.

For the love of everything that is good, please sweet the Twins.

bunty_doghunter
08-15-2010, 09:00 PM
please sweet the Twins.

Does this count as a Freudian slip?

Rdy2PlayBall
08-15-2010, 09:13 PM
Does this count as a Freudian slip?He didn't say "please kill everybody on the Twins", so I think it was just a typo. :tongue:

guillensdisciple
08-15-2010, 09:24 PM
Does this count as a Freudian slip?


I meant sweep:redface:

JB98
08-15-2010, 09:30 PM
Rios would have caught that ball, why wasn't he playing out there in the 8th?

Probably because he's been struggling at the plate lately, and they decided to give him the day off.

That gaffe by Jones didn't help matters, but bad pitching by both the starter and every reliever not named Chris Sale was what cost the Sox this game.

bunty_doghunter
08-15-2010, 09:37 PM
He didn't say "please kill everybody on the Twins", so I think it was just a typo. :tongue:
Of course with Freud, it would be more like **** the Twins!

soxinem1
08-15-2010, 09:37 PM
You don't think the Sox will try and re-sign Paulie? You're talking as if this team will be blown up.

KW was none too pleased when he had to ink him last time (cost-wise), and mentioned that he wished they had more depth in the minors at 1B.

With many impending holes in 2011 he may do a Magglio/Manos/CLee type deal and wave off three huge salaries (or in this case, Paulie, AJ, Jenks) and use those $$$$ to fill several areas.

Addtionally, PK is possibly having a career year and may have the extra drive to play closer to home next year. LAD, LAAA, and even COL or SF might make serious pushes for him.

He says he almost went to the Angels last time, and he seems to have had that certain look in his eyes when the subject of PK returning to the Dodgers has been mentioned, and we know they would love to have their #1 pick back.

This time, he just might.

Coops4Aces
08-15-2010, 09:44 PM
I'm on the Ozzie blew this game bandwagon.

-Beckham bunting Jones to 3rd for Pierre is dumb. Bunting a man from 2nd to 3rd decreases the run expectation from 1.09 to .93. This is a fact. Also a fact? Ozzie is a jackass.

-Pierre bunting Beckham to 2nd after the guy threw 5 pitches (a gopher ball and 4 pitch walk) is incredibly stupid and indefensible. If you bunt while down a run and a man on first in the 8th innning, your win expectancy goes down 3.8%. Same situation, 9th inning, your win expectancy goes down 4.8%.

-Where is Thornton? Putz has been bad lately, you have 2 lefties due up, and Thornton isn't warming in the bullpen? Damon crushes one over Jones in center. Shocking

DumpJerry
08-15-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm on the Ozzie blew this game bandwagon.

-Beckham bunting Jones to 3rd for Pierre is dumb. Bunting a man from 2nd to 3rd decreases the run expectation from 1.09 to .93. This is a fact. Also a fact? Ozzie is a jackass.

-Pierre bunting Beckham to 2nd after the guy threw 5 pitches (a gopher ball and 4 pitch walk) is incredibly stupid and indefensible. If you bunt while down a run and a man on first in the 8th innning, your win expectancy goes down 3.8%. Same situation, 9th inning, your win expectancy goes down 4.8%.

-Where is Thornton? Putz has been bad lately, you have 2 lefties due up, and Thornton isn't warming in the bullpen? Damon crushes one over Jones in center. Shocking
http://lukeoliver.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/hal-9000-eye.jpg
Stupid humans managing baseball games. Stick to the numbers, and you cannot fail.

Lip Man 1
08-15-2010, 09:53 PM
I think what's of more concern is what Ozzie said after the game. He said there was "no energy, no entusiasm" on the club.

That's hard to imagine being right in the middle of a divisional race and where they came from to get there.

Maybe Roman (or was it Tragg?) and his comments about leadership and the vibe in the locker room have validity.

Lip

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-15-2010, 10:02 PM
I think what's of more concern is what Ozzie said after the game. He said there was "no energy, no entusiasm" on the club.

That's hard to imagine being right in the middle of a divisional race and where they came from to get there.

Maybe Roman (or was it Tragg?) and his comments about leadership and the vibe in the locker room have validity.

Lip

But I thought Ozzie built this team to have leadership and chemistry in lieu of talent!

bestkosher
08-15-2010, 10:04 PM
I know its been said before but this team lacks an really intestinal fortitude. They lose a series to O's and then they start over thinking and second guessing themselves. Next thing we know they go from being gladiators to being fed to the Tigers. I wonder if this is a product of Ozzie's up and down personality as well. There is no real voice it seems that pushes this team to the next level.

TDog
08-15-2010, 10:22 PM
IN a game with 17 runs scored and 22 hits, the manager decides to give away one of the 6 remaining outs and bunt for 1 run. That is pure ego. That is nonsense.


Williams is going to have a hell of a job this offseason plugging holes at Catcher, 3B, LF, RF and finding a replacement for Paulie. And he can't do it with another edition of kotsay and wise. He's going to have to do a lot better than what he got out of his trades the last 2+ years.

But at least that clubhouse chemistry is pleasant and respectful.


It isn't a move I would have made, but it isn't pure ego. It's a move most managers would have made in that situation. And it wasn't why the White Sox lost.

This is a game the White Sox should have won, just as Saturday's game was a game the White Sox should have won. The offense was there to win. In both cases, Putz blew the one-run lead. The White Sox had enough offense to sweep this series.

If Putz gets out of the eighth with the lead today, Thornton comes in against the left-handed heart of the order to save the game. As it was, he failed miserably, twice. With the Sox losing,, there was no reason to bring Thornton in.

The holes on the White Sox in today's game, the holes in this seres, weren't at cater, third base, leftfield or right field. The hole was in the bullpen. The White Sox miss having Bobby Jenks available in the bullpen.

Coops4Aces
08-15-2010, 10:34 PM
It isn't a move I would have made, but it isn't pure ego. It's a move most managers would have made in that situation. And it wasn't why the White Sox lost.

Completely disagree. Completely. Again, bunting in that situation DECREASED our chances of winning.

slavko
08-15-2010, 10:47 PM
Rios would have caught that ball, why wasn't he playing out there in the 8th?

Good as I've seen on reading a ball directly over his head and going back on it. Jones embarrassed himself there.

guillensdisciple
08-15-2010, 10:54 PM
It is my belief that much of what has transpired over this home stand and the previous week or so has to do with the exhaustion of this baseball team. How many games in a row have they played, and how many innings has the bullpen had to pitch? When the run started we dominated detroit in every aspect, but then the switch went off in Baltimore and began draining our bullpen. Then came Minnesota who took us deep in two games, and finally came the end result of this long trip in Detroit.

I say we come in to Minny refreshed and ready to win, and I say the White Sox sweep the series and never look back at second place once more. The run of the Twins will end the same way the Sox let the run of the Twins begin- by allowing the other team to stay alive. Minnesota will make that mistake, and we will capitalize.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-15-2010, 10:57 PM
Completely disagree. Completely. Again, bunting in that situation DECREASED our chances of winning.

Many people around here (and Ozzie) don't understand that there's an opportunity cost incurred when bunting.

Hitmen77
08-15-2010, 11:01 PM
The thread title says it all: Pitiful.

Andruw Jones misplaying 2 balls in a row was the nail in the coffin for this game. This team is fading fast as Sox teams typically do in August.

Those wins we were racking up vs. NL teams and Seattle are ovah.:(: Against most everyone else, this team doesn't look very good.

Dibbs
08-15-2010, 11:16 PM
Ozzie with his bunting is driving me nuts. It lowers your chance of winning when you do that crap. Giving up outs is rarely a good idea. This team is going nowhere fast. The win streak was more of a fluke than this losing stretch. Kenny needed to get a big bat, but he failed this year.

Nellie_Fox
08-16-2010, 12:43 AM
Resign AJ to a one year deal, Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, Mark Teahen, and resign Konerko.That's not happening. Crawford will either remain where he is or be a Yankee next year.

Many people around here (and Ozzie) don't understand that there's an opportunity cost incurred when bunting.And many people don't understand the difference between raw data and statistical analysis. Until those number have been analyzed for who's pitching, who's on base, who's batting, the ballpark the game is being played in, weather conditions, and on and on and on, they remain raw data. There are too many variables that are not being controlled for to make any kind of reasonable inference from the data.

Slappy
08-16-2010, 01:03 AM
I think what's of more concern is what Ozzie said after the game. He said there was "no energy, no entusiasm" on the club.

That's hard to imagine being right in the middle of a divisional race and where they came from to get there.

Maybe Roman (or was it Tragg?) and his comments about leadership and the vibe in the locker room have validity.

Lip


This is a dead-ass team. Everyone is freaking out at the plate and buckling under pressure, but no one is stepping up and getting it done. We need Teahen to start hitting like Dunn.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-16-2010, 01:18 AM
This is a dead-ass team. Everyone is freaking out at the plate and buckling under pressure, but no one is stepping up and getting it done. We need Teahen to start hitting like Dunn.I guess 8 runs isn't enough.

ChiSoxGirl
08-16-2010, 01:18 AM
This game sucked, just like the other two I attended on the homestand (Thursday and Saturday). On the bright side, it was an absolutely beautiful day weather-wise out at the ballpark this afternoon... temperatures in the 80s, not a cloud in the sky, low humidity, and a refreshing breeze.

guillensdisciple
08-16-2010, 01:55 AM
No leadership leads to things like this, and to why the clubhouse is dead. No one can say a damn thing to make this team sack up when it matters. Has been this way for years.

WE need leaders, not these same good guys we always have. I think the energy might be drained because of the length of this trip, but if we completely fall off the map we really have to take a look at who is in that locker room and look to infuse it with players who want to win. Something tells me Paulie, Alex, and some of the other guys are a little too lax for their own good. We need winners, not good guys.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-16-2010, 08:44 AM
And many people don't understand the difference between raw data and statistical analysis. Until those number have been analyzed for who's pitching, who's on base, who's batting, the ballpark the game is being played in, weather conditions, and on and on and on, they remain raw data. There are too many variables that are not being controlled for to make any kind of reasonable inference from the data.

You don't need statistical analysis to understand the basic concept that voluntarily giving away outs with runners on base is not a good idea. You don't need to mine data to figure out that a hitter that lays down a bunt is forgoing the opportunity for an error, walk, single, double, triple or home run.

Pitchers in the National League are often asked to bunt because the likelihood of achieving one of these other outcomes is extremely low not because the bunt is an inherently strong play.

TheOldRoman
08-16-2010, 09:00 AM
LOL
More like re-sign Kotsay, AJ, and trade for Lyle Overbay. We spent most of the Konkero savings on Jackson (Ozzie can't have a young pitcher in a pennant race).
We already have Teahen locked up for 2 more years at only $10 million, so that one's done.
We should have $10 mill or so for free agents. But to get a legitimate outfielder (or 2) and first baseman, we'll probably have to trade Danks or Floyd and move Sale into the rotation....OR raise the budget by $30 mill.I know! Because it would have been awesome for another Freddy blowup to happen the day after we have to go to the pen in the 5th because Hudson gave us 4 innings/5 runs again. 10 bullpen innings pitched in 2 days? Sign me up!

TheOldRoman
08-16-2010, 09:05 AM
I'm on the Ozzie blew this game bandwagon.

-Beckham bunting Jones to 3rd for Pierre is dumb. Bunting a man from 2nd to 3rd decreases the run expectation from 1.09 to .93. This is a fact. Also a fact? Ozzie is a jackass.

-Pierre bunting Beckham to 2nd after the guy threw 5 pitches (a gopher ball and 4 pitch walk) is incredibly stupid and indefensible. If you bunt while down a run and a man on first in the 8th innning, your win expectancy goes down 3.8%. Same situation, 9th inning, your win expectancy goes down 4.8%.

-Where is Thornton? Putz has been bad lately, you have 2 lefties due up, and Thornton isn't warming in the bullpen? Damon crushes one over Jones in center. ShockingNo, that is not a fact. It is the exact opposite of a fact. It doesn't even relly qualify as an "opinion." It is utter nonsense made up for a mental masturbatory purpose. It has no relevance whatsoever. Seriously? Run expectancy? Win expectancy? That is ridiculous.

TDog
08-16-2010, 09:42 AM
You don't need statistical analysis to understand the basic concept that voluntarily giving away outs with runners on base is not a good idea. You don't need to mine data to figure out that a hitter that lays down a bunt is forgoing the opportunity for an error, walk, single, double, triple or home run.

Pitchers in the National League are often asked to bunt because the likelihood of achieving one of these other outcomes is extremely low not because the bunt is an inherently strong play.

Friday night, the Twins scored their last run, the deciding run in a one-run game by sacrificing with the No. 8 hitter to move a runner over to third with one out and successfully suicide squeezing with the No. 9 hitter. They had a man on second and none out and intentionally gave up two outs to score the run. And it decided the game, along with the closer getting out of a jam in the ninth to preserve the lead.

I generally don't believe in bunting a runner over to third base, but it isn't a question of giving away outs. When I learned baseball, fundamental baseball dictated that in most situations, including when you are down by a run late in the game, if you get a leadoff double, the next hitter grounds out to the right side to move the runner over to third. Either the other team concedes the run on a ground ball or pulls the infield in, increasing the percentages of the next hitter in getting a hit to drive in the run. And, of course, a sacrifice fly ties the game as well.

It isn't just Guillen who bunts. The Rangers lead the AL in sacrifice bunts, and four of the top six bunting AL teams are in first or second place, with the A's, who were in second place before the Twins series, also in the mix. I suspect managers today ask players to bunt runners over from second to third because doing the fundamental job of hitting the ground ball to the right side hurts a player statistically, even though it helps the team. Since the advent of crazy free agency, statistics, even if they don't translate into winning baseball, translate into income.

If the White Sox are down a run with Andruw Jones on second base with none out, they want to move him to third with one out to give the top of the order a chance to drive him in. You can look at raw data, but raw data would tell you the odds are against Beckham getting a hit. Your chance of tying the game with a runner on third and one out is much better than with a runner on second and one out. The imperative is to tie the game.

Giving up the out to get the runner to third was the fundamental play in that specific situation.

doublem23
08-16-2010, 09:48 AM
No, that is not a fact. It is the exact opposite of a fact. It doesn't even relly qualify as an "opinion." It is utter nonsense made up for a mental masturbatory purpose. It has no relevance whatsoever. Seriously? Run expectancy? Win expectancy? That is ridiculous.

What is so difficult to comprehend about that? If you have a runner at 2nd, you're more likely to score than if you have a runner at 3rd and an extra out. Now, if you don't like that, or are still willing to make that sacrifiice based on your fundamental beliefs about the game of baseball, that is fine, but it is a fact that over the course of the past 20+ years or so (not 100% sure how far back data is examined for run expectancy and WPA), teams are universally less likely to score runs if they're giving up outs for bases. That's just the reality of the game.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-16-2010, 09:59 AM
Friday night, the Twins scored their last run, the deciding run in a one-run game by sacrificing with the No. 8 hitter to move a runner over to third with one out and successfully suicide squeezing with the No. 9 hitter. They had a man on second and none out and intentionally gave up two outs to score the run. And it decided the game, along with the closer getting out of a jam in the ninth to preserve the lead.

I generally don't believe in bunting a runner over to third base, but it isn't a question of giving away outs. When I learned baseball, fundamental baseball dictated that in most situations, including when you are down by a run late in the game, if you get a leadoff double, the next hitter grounds out to the right side to move the runner over to third. Either the other team concedes the run on a ground ball or pulls the infield in, increasing the percentages of the next hitter in getting a hit to drive in the run. And, of course, a sacrifice fly ties the game as well.

It isn't just Guillen who bunts. The Rangers lead the AL in sacrifice bunts, and four of the top six bunting AL teams are in first or second place, with the A's, who were in second place before the Twins series, also in the mix. I suspect managers today ask players to bunt runners over from second to third because doing the fundamental job of hitting the ground ball to the right side hurts a player statistically, even though it helps the team. Since the advent of crazy free agency, statistics, even if they don't translate into winning baseball, translate into income.

If the White Sox are down a run with Andruw Jones on second base with none out, they want to move him to third with one out to give the top of the order a chance to drive him in. You can look at raw data, but raw data would tell you the odds are against Beckham getting a hit. Your chance of tying the game with a runner on third and one out is much better than with a runner on second and one out. The imperative is to tie the game.

Giving up the out to get the runner to third was the fundamental play in that specific situation.

I disagree for a number reasons. At the time the game was in the sixth inning. I could perhaps see your logic if the game was in the ninth or maybe the 8th inning. Both teams still had plenty of chances to add to the run total. Additionally, this wasn't a 1-0 Verlander vs Danks game, it was a 5-4 game and Robbie Weinhardt was on the mound for them. There was little reason to A) believe that we couldn't score more than one run against Mr. Weinhardt and B) think that additional runs would not be scored before the expiration of nine innings. Finally, the hitter at the time has been on a roll to the tune of .363 in the second half. If he swings away you have the opportunity to get the runner over anyway as well as the potential bonus of getting a hit in the process thereby driving in the run in that manner. You have your hottest hitter at the plate with a runner in scoring position against a middle reliever with a grand total of 16 innings of ML experience and no record of success. What more could you ask for?

TheOldRoman
08-16-2010, 10:15 AM
What is so difficult to comprehend about that? If you have a runner at 2nd, you're more likely to score than if you have a runner at 3rd and an extra out. Now, if you don't like that, or are still willing to make that sacrifiice based on your fundamental beliefs about the game of baseball, that is fine, but it is a fact that over the course of the past 20+ years or so (not 100% sure how far back data is examined for run expectancy and WPA), teams are universally less likely to score runs if they're giving up outs for bases. That's just the reality of the game.First off, I don't agree with bunting in that situation. My gut tells me it is the wrong call. No stat can tell you how X batter will do against Y pitcher with the given fielders considering stadium, weather conditions, etc. They might give you a good idea of what happened in the past, but it doesn't show that it will happen again. Calling the numbers facts is disingenuous, as is any attempt to generate a percentage for scoring a run any inning or winning through the course of a game. Nothing which happened earlier mandates anyother thing happen then. Maybe after Pierre's bunt the next batter gets on with an error, the pitcher falls apart and the Sox score 8 that inning. Is it likely? No, but it could happen, it has happened, etc. Maybe Pierre gets an infield single and the next three batters strike out. What would our run expectancy have been when we had the bases loaded with 0 and 1 outs in consecutive innings on Thursday? How many times have we seen the Sox pitchers be victims of 2 out 3-4 run explosions? It happens. You just can't quantify that.

Domeshot17
08-16-2010, 10:28 AM
This is baseball. The twins are having guys step up in spots when they need them. Right now we aren't. Freddy has been brutal, Putz has been off. Pena has been brutal lately. Offensively, when PK hit that home run, I really thought that was our moment, that was the guy who was not going to let this team lose another game. But what can you do but hope they turn it around fast. 3 games in August isn't much, but 4-5-6 starts to really make it tough.

kufram
08-16-2010, 11:12 AM
This is baseball. The twins are having guys step up in spots when they need them. Right now we aren't. Freddy has been brutal, Putz has been off. Pena has been brutal lately. Offensively, when PK hit that home run, I really thought that was our moment, that was the guy who was not going to let this team lose another game. But what can you do but hope they turn it around fast. 3 games in August isn't much, but 4-5-6 starts to really make it tough.


I felt exactly the same when PK hit the HR. We got let down by pitching this time, not bunting or managing or a bad vibe in the clubhouse. That doesn't mean I think we should crucify any of the pitchers. They've all, especially Putz and Pena, pulled their weight at other times. I don't think it helped having less than sellout crowds of Sox fans. It doesn't take much for the doomsayers to come out and they do seem to enjoy the gloom.

We beat up on the NL the Twins lost to the NL. We were in a slump, then on a ride, and now another slump. Minnesota went through a slump and are now on a ride. I see the next few games as an opportunity to get back on a ride. It is patently obvious and proven that we are capable of that. Bobby going down is the worst news we've had. Some people wanted him gone but look what happens when you shake up a working combination. I'm hopeful that the bullpen will sort itself out after some speed bumps. Santos could be a big part of the solution along with Sale.

But nobody knows. One must take the rough with the smooth.

TDog
08-16-2010, 11:48 AM
I disagree for a number reasons. At the time the game was in the sixth inning. I could perhaps see your logic if the game was in the ninth or maybe the 8th inning. Both teams still had plenty of chances to add to the run total. Additionally, this wasn't a 1-0 Verlander vs Danks game, it was a 5-4 game and Robbie Weinhardt was on the mound for them. There was little reason to A) believe that we couldn't score more than one run against Mr. Weinhardt and B) think that additional runs would not be scored before the expiration of nine innings. Finally, the hitter at the time has been on a roll to the tune of .363 in the second half. If he swings away you have the opportunity to get the runner over anyway as well as the potential bonus of getting a hit in the process thereby driving in the run in that manner. You have your hottest hitter at the plate with a runner in scoring position against a middle reliever with a grand total of 16 innings of ML experience and no record of success. What more could you ask for?

As I posted, fundamental baseball for many years has been to move the runner over by hitting to the right side. Now it seems that it is more common for players to bunt. But when you are down by one run or the score is tied, heck, if you're up by five in the second inning, your job as a hitter is to get the runner over to third.

As I understand it, players now often bunt on their own to move the runner so that they won't be charged with an at bat. Aaron Rowand's last at bat in a White Sox uniform was bunting foul on a third strike with a runner on second and no one out. It was lost in the game analysis because there was incredible job the likes of which I have never seen when the game was over, but it turned out that Rowand was bunting on his own, either because he felt he had a better chance of getting the runner over or because he didn't want to be charged with a time at bat.

It is irrelevant to the outcome of the game, anyway, because Ramirez tied the game with a hit and Konerko put the Sox ahead by two. That should have been enough to win if the bullpen had done its job. There was even a little margin for error.

If you are arguing a purely academic point, a sizeable majority of major league managers would disagree with you. If you are arguing that the bunt there was a bad move because it reduces your chance of scoring and drastically reduced your chance of scoring at least two runs to take the lead in the inning, your argument is moot because the Sox did score three runs in the inning. The bunt inning was an inning Sunday where things went right for the White Sox.

Nelfox02
08-16-2010, 12:35 PM
When Kenny says I can't spend a dollar because I don't have $.50, I'm guessing he has a cap on spending. :shrug:


I am pretty sure that KW went on WSCR right after the deadline passed and said that part of his reason for not giving into the Nat's high demands for Dunn was that he would have to part with solid players for just a 3 month rental, that "the budget" essentially eliminated the idea of signing Dunn to an extension......

Based on comments like that I dont think we should expect the sox to buck recent off season trends and make any type of significant splashes in the FA market

BringHomeDaBacon
08-16-2010, 12:42 PM
As I posted, fundamental baseball for many years has been to move the runner over by hitting to the right side. Now it seems that it is more common for players to bunt. But when you are down by one run or the score is tied, heck, if you're up by five in the second inning, your job as a hitter is to get the runner over to third.

As I understand it, players now often bunt on their own to move the runner so that they won't be charged with an at bat. Aaron Rowand's last at bat in a White Sox uniform was bunting foul on a third strike with a runner on second and no one out. It was lost in the game analysis because there was incredible job the likes of which I have never seen when the game was over, but it turned out that Rowand was bunting on his own, either because he felt he had a better chance of getting the runner over or because he didn't want to be charged with a time at bat.

It is irrelevant to the outcome of the game, anyway, because Ramirez tied the game with a hit and Konerko put the Sox ahead by two. That should have been enough to win if the bullpen had done its job. There was even a little margin for error.

If you are arguing a purely academic point, a sizeable majority of major league managers would disagree with you. If you are arguing that the bunt there was a bad move because it reduces your chance of scoring and drastically reduced your chance of scoring at least two runs to take the lead in the inning, your argument is moot because the Sox did score three runs in the inning. The bunt inning was an inning Sunday where things went right for the White Sox.

You can try and justify it all you want but managers never bunt in the sixth inning with one of their better hitters. Secondly, the point is that the Sox ONLY scored three runs that inning. They should have and could have had more.

Domeshot17
08-16-2010, 12:59 PM
I felt exactly the same when PK hit the HR. We got let down by pitching this time, not bunting or managing or a bad vibe in the clubhouse. That doesn't mean I think we should crucify any of the pitchers. They've all, especially Putz and Pena, pulled their weight at other times. I don't think it helped having less than sellout crowds of Sox fans. It doesn't take much for the doomsayers to come out and they do seem to enjoy the gloom.

We beat up on the NL the Twins lost to the NL. We were in a slump, then on a ride, and now another slump. Minnesota went through a slump and are now on a ride. I see the next few games as an opportunity to get back on a ride. It is patently obvious and proven that we are capable of that. Bobby going down is the worst news we've had. Some people wanted him gone but look what happens when you shake up a working combination. I'm hopeful that the bullpen will sort itself out after some speed bumps. Santos could be a big part of the solution along with Sale.

But nobody knows. One must take the rough with the smooth.

I don't know about Pena, I think we get lost in the 2 games he pitched well in long relief. He has been pretty horse**** in his middle relief appearances. ERA over 5 for the season, over 8 since the All star break, I would rather see Sale with the ball in his hands than Pena right now.

DirtySox
08-16-2010, 01:01 PM
I don't know about Pena, I think we get lost in the 2 games he pitched well in long relief. He has been pretty horse**** in his middle relief appearances. ERA over 5 for the season, over 8 since the All star break, I would rather see Sale with the ball in his hands than Pena right now.

One wonders if Pena is a non tender candidate after this season. Especially with the 8 million dollar addition of Mr. Jackson.

kufram
08-16-2010, 01:51 PM
I don't know about Pena, I think we get lost in the 2 games he pitched well in long relief. He has been pretty horse**** in his middle relief appearances. ERA over 5 for the season, over 8 since the All star break, I would rather see Sale with the ball in his hands than Pena right now.


I wasn't suggesting Pena is a success story, just that he had pulled his weight at other points of the season. I thought he'd had more than 2 good performances... maybe I'm wrong. Well, it was a struggle to find feelgood news in April/May! Sale and Santos could be difference makers. Jackson could be a difference maker.

PK is still rock solid, Pierre is good. Beckham's ready to make a difference. If 2-3 others (TCQ, TCM) can move it up a notch we can win.

We're possibly a couple of good wins from being back in offensive shape and with our pitching I'm just not ready to slit my throat yet. Win 2 in Minn. and all the bad stuff goes away.

guillensdisciple
08-16-2010, 02:02 PM
I wasn't suggesting Pena is a success story, just that he had pulled his weight at other points of the season. I thought he'd had more than 2 good performances... maybe I'm wrong. Well, it was a struggle to find feelgood news in April/May! Sale and Santos could be difference makers. Jackson could be a difference maker.

PK is still rock solid, Pierre is good. Beckham's ready to make a difference. If 2-3 others (TCQ, TCM) can move it up a notch we can win.

We're possibly a couple of good wins from being back in offensive shape and with our pitching I'm just not ready to slit my throat yet. Win 2 in Minn. and all the bad stuff goes away.

TCM has been extremely productive. Rios is the one who needs to get back.

Oh and Sale is going to be sick. I really want to see him pitch as a starter.

FielderJones
08-16-2010, 02:19 PM
It was a disappointing game to attend, especially after the bats bailed out Freddy's crappy start. I'm surprised to see so much angst over the bunts. I agree that in the 6th inning you should go for a big inning and not give up outs. But ultimately, giving up 8 runs in the last 3 innings is what lost this game.

khan
08-16-2010, 03:09 PM
I know! Because it would have been awesome for another Freddy blowup to happen the day after we have to go to the pen in the 5th because Hudson gave us 4 innings/5 runs again. 10 bullpen innings pitched in 2 days? Sign me up!

Since we're talking in hypotheticals, maybe Hudson would have approximated his 1.59 ERA in his starts since KW made the trade, too.

Sign ME up for that, PLUS the $12M that wouldn't have gone to Jackson, PLUS the complete impossibility of re-signing Jackson due to his greedy agent [IF he turns his career around], PLUS the additional depth in pitching that wouldn't have been wasted as a result of this trade, PLUS the possible additions to the roster [Catcher, DH, 3B, closer, etc..] that could have been partially paid for with the money that is instead going to Jackson due to this stupid trade.

Sometimes, the best move that a GM can make is the one he DOESN'T make.

hawkjt
08-16-2010, 03:35 PM
As Ozzie always says, our bullpen and team is better when Bobby is the closer. Like when Bobby went out with injuries in the past, the rest of the bullpen seems to immediately struggle when Bobby is not at the end of the line.

This weekend was all about Putz and the bullpen failures...must rectify that immediately to right this ship vs the twins.

Slappy
08-16-2010, 03:55 PM
It was a disappointing game to attend, especially after the bats bailed out Freddy's crappy start. I'm surprised to see so much angst over the bunts. I agree that in the 6th inning you should go for a big inning and not give up outs. But ultimately, giving up 8 runs in the last 3 innings is what lost this game.

This.

I'm against bunting when it is purely to preserve the illusion that we're an effective small ball team. You need guys that can lay down a bunt, but you also need guys that are hitting consistently and in clutch situations. Something our team hasn't been doing lately. You gotta take your chances in that situation instead of giving up outs. It takes the momentum out of you if your manager continually doesn't believe in guys to get a clutch base hit, and instead is haphazardly resorting to this dink and dunk bs.

It's just bad managing.

kufram
08-16-2010, 04:51 PM
TCM has been extremely productive. Rios is the one who needs to get back.

Oh and Sale is going to be sick. I really want to see him pitch as a starter.


TCM is my favourite player (has been for some time) and he has been very, very good. I just think he still has another notch in him. He can carry the team. I think Rios just needs a break.

Re: Sale... we don't need another starter right now as much as we need to bolster the bullpen. Freddie may be done... but he may not.. and I think they can work around some of his starts. I hope Sale takes Santos' slot and Santos takes over til Bobby is back... let Putz go back to being Putz. Of course if Putz gets a couple of saves under his belt, who better against than the Twins, then we might have something good again.