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View Full Version : The Great Viciedo Age Debate


Paulwny
08-13-2010, 11:26 AM
Viciedo is from Cuba, his birth record is not available, he could be 25 yrs old.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2010, 11:39 AM
Then you don't like Frank Thomas?

Point is, he can improve his defense and turn himself into a servicable major league 3B or 1B.
Well, that is relevant.
Viciedo is from Cuba, his birth record is not available, he could be 25 yrs old.
That's offensive.

Paulwny
08-13-2010, 11:42 AM
That's offensive.

Why ?

Ron Karkovice
08-13-2010, 12:01 PM
Craig is from Cuba. Awkwarddddd

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2010, 12:05 PM
Why ?
Because you are projecting a stereotype (a dumb one, at that) on people from Cuba. Further, do you really think the White Sox would give him a seven-figure bonus without doing their homework? Especially after what happened with Wilder.

On top of that, you put a space before the question mark. That offends everyone.

Paulwny
08-13-2010, 12:25 PM
Because you are projecting a stereotype (a dumb one, at that) on people from Cuba. Further, do you really think the White Sox would give him a seven-figure bonus without doing their homework? Especially after what happened with Wilder.

On top of that, you put a space before the question mark. That offends everyone.


Sorry if I offended you, however player agents will often lie about the age of a player if records are unavailable, younger is better.
I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that El Duque is the age his agent claims. The Yanks also did their homework and didn't care about what El Duque's real age was when they signed him.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2010, 12:29 PM
Sorry if I offended you, however player agents will often lie about the age of a player if records are unavailable, younger is better.
I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that El Duque is the age his agent claims. The Yanks also did their homework and didn't care about what El Duque's real age was when they signed him.
So you're saying you projected something on Dayan? Just making sure we're clear that you have no grounds to make your claim.

The Yankees also didn't just have to fire one of their high-level international executives because he was siphoning money and lying about ages. Wilder's firing was fresh in their minds.

Do you think Cuba is just some vapid wasteland without infrastructure/government to keep birth records?

doublem23
08-13-2010, 12:31 PM
Because you are projecting a stereotype (a dumb one, at that) on people from Cuba. Further, do you really think the White Sox would give him a seven-figure bonus without doing their homework? Especially after what happened with Wilder.

On top of that, you put a space before the question mark. That offends everyone.

Like how Miguel Tejada made millions of dollars from several organizations before he outed himself that he lied about his birthday?

Paul didn't say anything stereotypically insensitive about Dayan, he didn't say he's too stupid to play baseball because he's Cuban. There is, however, a number of cases of kids from the Car ribbean not accurately reporting their age, I'm going to trust the Sox and Dayan that he really is 21 because I have no credible proof to the contrary, but if it turns out he's actually 23-24, I wouldn't exactly be shocked.

doublem23
08-13-2010, 12:34 PM
Do you think Cuba is just some vapid wasteland without infrastructure/government to keep birth records?

Having worked in an American government office that kept birth, marriage, and death records, and seeing how piss poorly they were kept, about up to the time I was born in the 1980s, I can't imagine a Cuban birth record would be that hard to forge, especially when it's greasing the wheels of a multimillion dollar contract.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2010, 12:34 PM
Like how Miguel Tejada made millions of dollars from several organizations before he outed himself that he lied about his birthday?

Paul didn't say anything stereotypically insensitive about Dayan, he didn't say he's too stupid to play baseball because he's Cuban. There is, however, a number of cases of kids from the Car ribbean not accurately reporting their age, I'm going to trust the Sox and Dayan that he really is 21 because I have no credible proof to the contrary, but if it turns out he's actually 23-24, I wouldn't exactly be shocked.
Contextually, however, it's pretty unbelievable, given that the Sox were in the wake of the Wilder debacle.

Also the phrase: "his birth record is not available" somehow insinuates Dayan was born in a country where birth records are not kept. That's idiotic.

Paulwny
08-13-2010, 12:39 PM
So you're saying you projected something on Dayan? Just making sure we're clear that you have no grounds to make your claim.

The Yankees also didn't just have to fire one of their high-level international executives because he was siphoning money and lying about ages. Wilder's firing was fresh in their minds.

Do you think Cuba is just some vapid wasteland without infrastructure/government to keep birth records?

No, I don't believe Cuba is a wasteland, but why would any gov't agency in Cuba release any documents to the US?



Like how Miguel Tejada made millions of dollars from several organizations before he outed himself that he lied about his birthday?

Paul didn't say anything stereotypically insensitive about Dayan, he didn't say he's too stupid to play baseball because he's Cuban. There is, however, a number of cases of kids from the Car ribbean not accurately reporting their age, I'm going to trust the Sox and Dayan that he really is 21 because I have no credible proof to the contrary, but if it turns out he's actually 23-24, I wouldn't exactly be shocked.

THANK YOU, I'm glad to see someone understands my view.

JB98
08-13-2010, 12:41 PM
Contextually, however, it's pretty unbelievable, given that the Sox were in the wake of the Wilder debacle.

Also the phrase: "his birth record is not available" somehow insinuates Dayan was born in a country where birth records are not kept. That's idiotic.

I think you're the one that is out of line. You put words in the other poster's mouth.

Brian26
08-13-2010, 12:53 PM
Viciedo is from Cuba, his birth record is not available, he could be 25 yrs old.

This seems to have taken on a life of its own, so I'm going to split this from the Teahen thread and let you guys talk about it here.

delben91
08-13-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't think Dayan is 27 or anything, I mean just watching him play and looking at him...he looks young. Could he be 23? I suppose, but I have no problem/hesitation believing he's 21 either.

DumpJerry
08-13-2010, 01:00 PM
Because you are projecting a stereotype (a dumb one, at that) on people from Cuba. Further, do you really think the White Sox would give him a seven-figure bonus without doing their homework? Especially after what happened with Wilder.

On top of that, you put a space before the question mark. That offends everyone.
1. Look up the word "stereotype" so the next time you use it, you use it correctly.
2. Knock off being the Typewriter/Computer Keyboard Police. It offends everyone.

doublem23
08-13-2010, 01:02 PM
I don't think Dayan is 27 or anything, I mean just watching him play and looking at him...he looks young. Could he be 23? I suppose, but I have no problem/hesitation believing he's 21 either.

The OP didn't say he's definitely 24-25, but considering the history of guys coming over from the Carribean it's not exactly a shocking relevation when a Carribean-born ballplayer admits he's 3-4 years older than we all think. I have no reason to believe Dayan isn't 21, so I will just assume he is, but if he turns out to be 22 or 23, I won't be floored either. Now, if Mark Buehrle comes out and says he's actually 34 or 35, that would surprise the hell out of me.

I know we all want to believe government records are 100% trustable, but there's still a lot of leeway. Hell, some of the newer security advances here in the States are only very recent, like computerized records and safety paper. Birth records weren't even required to be recorded by law in Illinois until something like 1910. Especially when you consider Dayan's young age probably padded his signing bonus and contract by several million dollars, it's absolutely not difficult to imagine his birth records may have been altered or tampered.

But again, I have no proof, so I'm not going to worry about it.

october23sp
08-13-2010, 01:05 PM
There is also a chance he could actually be younger than he says he is. Just sayin.

jdm2662
08-13-2010, 01:08 PM
I wish I can be younger than my actual age. :redneck

Pablo_Honey
08-13-2010, 01:43 PM
This debate reminds me of this controversy: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/17/nats.gonzalez/

Then again, that was just another one of many ****ups by the pre-Rizzo Nationals. Also, as Craig mentioned, the Sox are still recovering from the Wilder debacle and it would be downright bad for the Sox brass to make a mistake in international signing. I see why people are skeptical of players born outside of the States (Hell, I wouldn't be all that surprised Pujols admitted he is a bit older than he is listed at) but IMHO, Dayan seems to be as young as he is advertised. Besides, Dayan has a good amount of playing time in Cuba since young age. I hardly doubt Dayan's side started faking his age since that early.

BadBobbyJenks
08-13-2010, 01:56 PM
As a man with Irish decent, I am deeply offended by this thread.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2010, 01:56 PM
1. Look up the word "stereotype" so the next time you use it, you use it correctly.
2. Knock off being the Typewriter/Computer Keyboard Police. It offends everyone.
Hey guy, save me the time and tell me how I used it incorrectly.

I think you're the one that is out of line. You put words in the other poster's mouth.

I quoted him/her.

Bobby Thigpen
08-13-2010, 01:59 PM
Is it possible for you to overreact a little more to this?

SSrep
08-13-2010, 02:06 PM
Hey guy, save me the time and tell me how I used it incorrectly.

The initial poster didn't say he's from Cuba, therefore his birth record is not available. He made two separate statements. You are being ridiculous...now I've stated a fact.

SoxSpeed22
08-13-2010, 02:19 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stereotype
See #4
Nobody was being stereotyped here. Just because a few Carribean born players were older than they said doesn't mean Viciedo is one of them. The original post said he could be. Admittedly, I thought the same thing when the Sox first signed him.
You're doing what you do best there, telling the other poster what he/she said instead of listening to what that poster said, turning it into a huge deal, acting like you know what's best for everyone here and ultimately annoying the hell out of most of us who post here.

kittle42
08-13-2010, 02:31 PM
I'll contribute to this turd of a thread.

Seriously - people get offended by ****ing everything.

doublem23
08-13-2010, 02:37 PM
I'll contribute to this turd of a thread.

Seriously - people get offended by ****ing everything.

I find your toilet language offensive.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2010, 03:33 PM
The initial poster didn't say he's from Cuba, therefore his birth record is not available. He made two separate statements. You are being ridiculous...now I've stated a fact.
Viciedo is from Cuba, his birth record is not available, he could be 25 yrs old.

I politely disagree.

This has gone on as far as it should; but surely we all agree the White Sox knew, for certain, without any question, that Viciedo was the right age before they gave him millions of dollars. Does anyone even remember the Wilder stuff?

DumpJerry
08-13-2010, 03:39 PM
Hey guy, save me the time and tell me how I used it incorrectly.
Pass. Take the time to learn. Otherwise you would never really learn it.

WhiteSox1989
08-14-2010, 11:15 AM
There is also a chance he could actually be younger than he says he is. Just sayin.
:thumbsup:

In my opinion, he still looks pretty young. I think he's 21.

GoGoCrede
08-14-2010, 11:16 AM
:thumbsup:

In my opinion, he still looks pretty young. I think he's 21.

I remember when we first signed him, I was a little depressed because there was finally a Sox player younger than I am.

He looks 21 to me, too.

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 11:18 AM
Pass. Take the time to learn. Otherwise you would never really learn it.
So you've got nothing, is what you're saying?

WhiteSox1989
08-14-2010, 11:19 AM
I remember when we first signed him, I was a little depressed because there was finally a Sox player younger than I am.

He looks 21 to me, too.
I'm good, still. He's older than me.

SephClone89
08-14-2010, 11:20 AM
Seriously - people get offended by ****ing everything.

I think it's quite reasonable for someone to get offended by someone else ****ing everything.

I don't really get how one could offend oneself by ****ing everything, however.

(you could seriously injure yourself in doing so, though)

hi im skot
08-14-2010, 11:31 AM
Dayan Viciedo bought me a beer last week, so...

WhiteSox1989
08-14-2010, 11:31 AM
Dayan Viciedo bought me a beer last week, so...
That's a lie.

hi im skot
08-14-2010, 11:34 AM
That's a lie.

Well, sort of. It was actually a Barq's Root Beer, so now I'm not not sure if he's underage or just really appreciates the fact that Barq's does indeed have bite.

And the circle game continues...

Rohan
08-14-2010, 11:37 AM
Contextually, however, it's pretty unbelievable, given that the Sox were in the wake of the Wilder debacle.

Also the phrase: "his birth record is not available" somehow insinuates Dayan was born in a country where birth records are not kept. That's idiotic.

You are being straight up ridiculous. Slow down and stop accusing him of stereotyping or being an idiot. You're blowing this way out of proportion.

BleacherBandit
08-14-2010, 11:43 AM
I think it's quite reasonable for someone to get offended by someone else ****ing everything.

I don't really get how one could offend oneself by ****ing everything, however.

(you could seriously injure yourself in doing so, though)

Someone reads xkcd.

GoGoCrede
08-14-2010, 11:45 AM
I'm good, still. He's older than me.

Just you wait!

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 11:47 AM
You are being straight up ridiculous. Slow down and stop accusing him of stereotyping or being an idiot. You're blowing this way out of proportion.
I just see no reason to believe Viciedo may be older than 21. This organization is way too smart, and way too sensitive -- given what happened with Wilder -- to get caught with their pants down like this.

WhiteSox1989
08-14-2010, 11:56 AM
Just you wait!
I plan on being 21 forever...much like Dayan Viciedo.

Rohan
08-14-2010, 11:56 AM
I just see no reason to believe Viciedo may be older than 21. This organization is way too smart, and way too sensitive -- given what happened with Wilder -- to get caught with their pants down like this.

How old is Jose Contreras?

SephClone89
08-14-2010, 12:09 PM
Someone reads xkcd.

Can't say I do.

kufram
08-14-2010, 12:16 PM
I just read this thread and aged 10 years myself

sullythered
08-14-2010, 12:17 PM
The absence of evidence is not evidence.

Rohan
08-14-2010, 12:23 PM
The absence of evidence is not evidence.

Which is why the original poster said he could be a different age than is listed. He didn't definitely say it was, just that there is that potential for uncertainty.

sullythered
08-14-2010, 12:31 PM
Which is why the original poster said he could be a different age than is listed. He didn't definitely say it was, just that there is that potential for uncertainty.

And I could be a monkey's uncle. "Potential for uncertainty" means that right now there is no uncertainty, so it's not really even worth discussing.

pudge
08-14-2010, 02:15 PM
I just see no reason to believe Viciedo may be older than 21. This organization is way too smart, and way too sensitive -- given what happened with Wilder -- to get caught with their pants down like this.

Why can't they not know for sure and still not give a hoot? I don't even know what the Wilder thing is, but let's say for a moment that Dayan is really 23, should we even care that much? Do we know for sure how old Contreras is/was?

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Newsflash: Wilder scandal occurred after the Sox traded for Jose Contreras.

Apples and icebergs.

BleacherBandit
08-14-2010, 04:22 PM
Can't say I do.

http://xkcd.com/90/

MarksBrokenFoot
08-14-2010, 04:49 PM
I just see no reason to believe Viciedo may be older than 21. This organization is way too smart, and way too sensitive -- given what happened with Wilder -- to get caught with their pants down like this.

When an organization, or a single person, for that matter, demonstrates poor judgement, the logical conclusion is not to then expect good judgement from them in the future. The logical person would expect some good results before putting absolute faith in a mistake maker.

Let's put it this way. Who would you rather have pack your parachute:
A) Guy who has packed parachutes for a living and has never had a mistake...
or
B) Guy who just splatted a dude all over a cornfield but he's going to be super safe with you because wow, that was embarrassing.

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 04:53 PM
When an organization, or a single person, for that matter, demonstrates poor judgement, the logical conclusion is not to then expect good judgement from them in the future. The logical person would expect some good results before putting absolute faith in a mistake maker.

Let's put it this way. Who would you rather have pack your parachute:
A) Guy who has packed parachutes for a living and has never had a mistake...
or
B) Guy who just splatted a dude all over a cornfield but he's going to be super safe with you because wow, that was embarrassing.
The team fired Wilder and two scouts who were skimming money from Latin American prospects while also helping forge birth certificates. If you think the White Sox are so illogical that they would give a player four million dollars (up front) without investigating his age beyond a reasonable doubt, merely seven months after firing Wilder and two scouts, then I can't help you. You must think the guys running the show are criminally stupid.

MarksBrokenFoot
08-14-2010, 04:56 PM
The team fired Wilder and two scouts who were skimming money from Latin American prospects while also helping forge birth certificates. If you think the White Sox are so illogical that they would give a player four million dollars (up front) without investigating his age beyond a reasonable doubt, merely seven months after firing Wilder and two scouts, then I can't help you. You must think the guys running the show are criminally stupid.

No, I don't think they're stupid. I think you don't know how evidence works, that is all. Poor judgement is not an indicator of good judgement, and if you think it is, then I can't help you.

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 04:57 PM
No, I don't think they're stupid. I think you don't know how evidence works, that is all. Poor judgement is not an indicator of good judgement, and if you think it is, then I can't help you.
If you think that's how my argument flows, you're poorly mistaken. It is not: poor judgment ----> good judgment. It is: poor judgment by a member of the organization, resulting in federal authorities investigating him and the organization's Latin American scouts -----> super-duper cautious behavior, ensuring that no seedy/dirty dealings take place.

MarksBrokenFoot
08-14-2010, 05:02 PM
If you think that's how my argument flows, you're poorly mistaken. It is not: poor judgment ----> good judgment. It is: poor judgment by a member of the organization, resulting in federal authorities investigating him and the organization's Latin American scouts -----> super-duper cautious behavior, ensuring that no seedy/dirty dealings take place.

That is certainly what I hope is the case, because I'm a fan of the team and I don't want mistakes. But when it comes to weighing the facts of the case, a mistake in the past is a mark in your opponents favor in this argument, not your own.

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 05:07 PM
That is certainly what I hope is the case, because I'm a fan of the team and I don't want mistakes. But when it comes to weighing the facts of the case, a mistake in the past is a mark in your opponents favor in this argument, not your own.
Again, it was not simply a mistake; it was a scheme by a member of the organization to skim money and fake documentation. That member was disposed of, and one assumes that a right-thinking organization would say to themselves, "Hey, let's be extra cautious about the money we throw around in that part of the world, since our scouts were ****ing us and a bunch of poor kids from the Caribbean hard."

They gave Viciedo a $4 million (!) signing bonus. My assumption is that they did their homework, given how they were just burned by a member of the organization.

It's not as though they hired some guy off the street and left him untethered with suitcases full of money; it was not the organization's fault that one of Kenny's best friends was trying to siphon money away from some kids in Latin America to help fund a nightclub in Arizona.

MarksBrokenFoot
08-14-2010, 05:26 PM
Again, it was not simply a mistake; it was a scheme by a member of the organization to skim money and fake documentation. That member was disposed of, and one assumes that a right-thinking organization would say to themselves, "Hey, let's be extra cautious about the money we throw around in that part of the world, since our scouts were ****ing us and a bunch of poor kids from the Caribbean hard."

They gave Viciedo a $4 million (!) signing bonus. My assumption is that they did their homework, given how they were just burned by a member of the organization.

It's not as though they hired some guy off the street and left him untethered with suitcases full of money; it was not the organization's fault that one of Kenny's best friends was trying to siphon money away from some kids in Latin America to help fund a nightclub in Arizona.

One of Kenny's best friends being a criminal is, once again, NOT A MARK IN YOUR FAVOR. You seem to be confusing what you hope (the Sox have learned a lesson) with what is actual evidence (the Sox have shown poor judgement.)

Craig Grebeck
08-14-2010, 05:48 PM
One of Kenny's best friends being a criminal is, once again, NOT A MARK IN YOUR FAVOR. You seem to be confusing what you hope (the Sox have learned a lesson) with what is actual evidence (the Sox have shown poor judgement.)
In what way did the actual organization itself make poor judgment? Were they complicit in helping Wilder steal money and open a nightclub in Arizona?

IlliniSox4Life
08-14-2010, 06:23 PM
In what way did the actual organization itself make poor judgment? Were they complicit in helping Wilder steal money and open a nightclub in Arizona?

Wasn't Wilder part of the organization? Didn't he show poor judgment? Who in the organization has to have poor judgment for, in your mind, the organization to show poor judgment? He was the director of player development and then senior director of player personnel. There weren't too many people ahead of hi.

edit: Imagine this scenario- you go to a restaurant. The service is terrible. The worst you've ever had from a server. You make a complaint and the GM contacts you, apologizes and tells you they have fired the server. If you go back into the restaurant a year later, would you expect the best service ever because how could the restaurant allow themselves to have such a terrible server again? OR would you be fairly caution knowing that somehow they had allowed it to happen in the past, so it isn't unreasonable to imagine it happening again?

seventyseven
08-14-2010, 09:49 PM
The absence of evidence is not evidence.

Actually the quote is "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." But you were close.

Nellie_Fox
08-15-2010, 12:04 AM
...Dayan has a good amount of playing time in Cuba since young age. I hardly doubt Dayan's side started faking his age since that early.Two words: Danny Almonte.