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LITTLE NELL
08-11-2010, 06:33 AM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.

Lip Man 1
08-11-2010, 08:25 AM
Nell:

I'd argue there is more to the story and part of it, maybe a big part is the mental state of this team particularly when it comes to playing Minnesota.

Over and above that I got this e-mail from one of the beat writers after Tuesday's performance. I was a little surprised by it, take it for what it's worth:

"Too many agendas on this team. AJ is a mental mess with free agency, Quentin a space cadet, Vizquel arrives just early enough, no leaders among the Latins.

This is a problem when a manager wants to be the face of the franchise and the GM wants to pose for the cameras."


Seems pretty harsh to me but I'm not around the club everyday obviously and there may be more going on than meets the eye or gets out to the fans. Ever since spring training it's been a strange year even by White Sox standards with everything that has gone on especially off the field.

Lip

Dibbs
08-11-2010, 08:26 AM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.

Pretty much.

Except I don't see why it would have to be a left handed power hitter. We just needed a solid DH. Vlad Guerrero would have worked out just fine too I think. Maybe not as well as Kotsay, but pretty close.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 08:29 AM
Nell:

I'd argue there is more to the story and part of it, maybe a big part is the mental state of this team particularly when it comes to playing Minnesota.

Over and above that I got this e-mail from one of the beat writers after Tuesday's performance. I was a little surprised by it, take it for what it's worth:

"Too many agendas on this team. AJ is a mental mess with free agency, Quentin a space cadet, Vizquel arrives just early enough, no leaders among the Latins.

This is a problem when a manager wants to be the face of the franchise and the GM wants to pose for the cameras."


Seems pretty harsh to me but I'm not around the club everyday obviously and there may be more going on than meets the eye or gets out to the fans. Ever since spring training it's been a strange year even by White Sox standards with everything that has gone on especially off the field.

Lip
Honestly, Omar can park his Escalade in foul territory two minutes before the first pitch and I'll be pleased. He's been awesome.

balke
08-11-2010, 08:29 AM
If the Sox win the division it will be because they took a chance on Alex Rios and Edwin Jackson.

Its not that simple - and I don't think its that simple to blame losing on two things. Did Jake Peavy going down to injury midseason make the team bat .210 for 2 months +? If they lose this division by one game - it won't be Kotsay's fault. The team will have to look at April and May.

kobo
08-11-2010, 09:18 AM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.
It's not that simple. What about the first 2 months of the season?

Railsplitter
08-11-2010, 09:19 AM
Sox also 20-22 against A.L. Central

Harry Chappas
08-11-2010, 09:19 AM
If the Sox win the division it will be because they took a chance on Alex Rios and Edwin Jackson.

Its not that simple - and I don't think its that simple to blame losing on two things. Did Jake Peavy going down to injury midseason make the team bat .210 for 2 months +? If they lose this division by one game - it won't be Kotsay's fault. The team will have to look at April and May.

This, IMO, is the correct answer. As much as I dislike Kotsay (as a player), we can't simply forget that this team was plain awful for the first 2 months of the season. As for the LH power, I'm with the other guy who doesn't give a rip what side of the plate the guy hits from - as long as he hits. In the AL, in a homer-friendly park, we decided that a platoon of Kotsay/Jones was the answer?

LITTLE NELL
08-11-2010, 09:31 AM
It's not that simple. What about the first 2 months of the season?

The first 2 months are history as is every game we have played.
My point was that if we don't win the division from this day on it is because we lost Peavy who was starting to pitch well when he went down and no LH power to help us. Going into the stretch drive, who would you rather have in the rotation; Peavy or Garcia? And who would you rather have as DH; Kotsay or a guy like Adam Dunn?

Jerko
08-11-2010, 09:43 AM
I'm just sick of our announcer and manager being "afraid" of the Twins. *** the Sox have beaten better teams than this.

Noneck
08-11-2010, 09:45 AM
Going into the stretch drive, who would you rather have in the rotation; Peavy or Garcia?

I wonder if the Sox would have gotten Jackson if Peavy was still around.

southside rocks
08-11-2010, 09:46 AM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.

I don't agree.

IMO if this team doesn't win the division, it will be because this team did not play up to its potential.

We have already seen what this team can do when it plays at -- and past -- its potential. Playing at the respective career norms of the roster players, this team should give Minnesota a good run in a close race, and if it gets the wind up a bit, it should take the division. Injuries to key Twins players could be a big factor as well.

As constituted, this team can win the division. Will it? Well, that's why we all stay tuned.

And I don't miss Jim Thome. I loved him and respect him as a player and I appreciate what he brought to the White Sox, but I'm so glad not to see that lumbering, all-or-nothing heart of the order again this year. Because it was 'nothing' a lot more often than it was 'all'!

southside rocks
08-11-2010, 09:47 AM
I wonder if the Sox would have gotten Jackson if Peavy was still around.

Probably -- and flipped him to the Nats for Dunn.

hi im skot
08-11-2010, 09:55 AM
Omar Vizquel is a problem?

Please.

doublem23
08-11-2010, 09:59 AM
Omar Vizquel is a problem?

Please.

Yeah, apparenly we've forgotten how bad Teahen was.

happydude
08-11-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm just sick of our announcer and manager being "afraid" of the Twins. *** the Sox have beaten better teams than this.

Tell me about it. All the talk of how "tough" they are, the "greatness" of their organization, and "Gardy's" exceptional abilities as a manager are grating. When Ozzie initially began to refer to the Twins as piranhas I was somewhat amused; figuring he was simply using reverse psychology to inspire his own players who, in truth, seemed to lack fire.

Over the years, though, the praise from he and Hawk (you can almost hear the fear and resignation in his voice during telecasts) regarding the Twins continued to flow (although I haven't heard the term "piranhas" in a long while). If our guys are soft then just call them that and be done with it; no need for the incessant Twin love. Its sickening.

AlexRios51
08-11-2010, 10:22 AM
If the Sox win the division it will be because they took a chance on Alex Rios and Edwin Jackson.

Its not that simple - and I don't think its that simple to blame losing on two things. Did Jake Peavy going down to injury midseason make the team bat .210 for 2 months +? If they lose this division by one game - it won't be Kotsay's fault. The team will have to look at April and May.

That's why I put it as my signature, nothing could be any more true than this.

balke
08-11-2010, 10:35 AM
That's why I put it as my signature, nothing could be any more true than this.

Gavin, Danks, the bullpen, and Konerko are just as important. I'd argue Pierre has been huge as well. Even Quentin with his 74 RBI.

oeo
08-11-2010, 11:03 AM
Tell me about it. All the talk of how "tough" they are, the "greatness" of their organization, and "Gardy's" exceptional abilities as a manager are grating. When Ozzie initially began to refer to the Twins as piranhas I was somewhat amused; figuring he was simply using reverse psychology to inspire his own players who, in truth, seemed to lack fire.

He's asked questions about how they play the game, and he gives them his honest feelings. The questions are asked, Ozzie answers them. If Gardenhire was asked similar questions about the Sox, what do you think he would say? He'd talk them up, even if some of it wasn't true, so he's not creating any type of bulletin board material. Whatever Ozzie's feelings are about the Twins, I've never gotten the feeling that he's afraid of them.

This is overreaction at its best. We had our worst starter on the bump for over the past month, he's been leaving everything up and clearly looks like he's running on empty. He got hit, and he got hit hard. They hit his beach balls and they won the game. Whether it was 12-6 or 1-0, it was still a loss. The next couple games we have our 2 best on the mound, let's wait and see how the series ends up, shall we?

Sad
08-11-2010, 11:08 AM
if we don't start beating the Twins, that will be cited before any position player or lack thereof...

Moses_Scurry
08-11-2010, 11:09 AM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.

I would say that those two are pretty connected also, at least as far as the trade deadline activity is concerned. Without the Peavy injury, Hudson could have been traded in a package for a bat.

psyclonis
08-11-2010, 11:09 AM
The twins w/ Morneau are arguably the best team in the MLB... If the Sox fall short, blaming it solely on Peavy/no power LH is foolish.

delben91
08-11-2010, 11:11 AM
The twins w/ Morneau are arguably the best team in the MLB... If the Sox fall short, blaming it solely on Peavy/no power LH is foolish.



Best team in MLB?

:scratch: :o:

oeo
08-11-2010, 11:16 AM
The twins w/ Morneau are arguably the best team in the MLB... If the Sox fall short, blaming it solely on Peavy/no power LH is foolish.

The Twins with Morneau were 26-30 for the two months prior to him being out.

The Twins are playing very good baseball right now. Just as our run wasn't sustainable, neither is their 18-7 record since the All Star Break.

LITTLE NELL
08-11-2010, 11:17 AM
The twins w/ Morneau are arguably the best team in the MLB... If the Sox fall short, blaming it solely on Peavy/no power LH is foolish.

You would get an argument on that.

kevingrt
08-11-2010, 11:24 AM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.

Back on topic here. Aren't those problems kind of hand and hand to some degree. Obviously we should have gone after a stronger left handed back in the off-season instead of Kotsay and Teahen. But if Peavy did not get injured and was still around right now I bet KW makes a move for a LH power hitter by trading Hudson right?

oeo
08-11-2010, 11:31 AM
Back on topic here. Aren't those problems kind of hand and hand to some degree. Obviously we should have gone after a stronger left handed back in the off-season instead of Kotsay and Teahen. But if Peavy did not get injured and was still around right now I bet KW makes a move for a LH power hitter by trading Hudson right?

He tried to do it anyway (thankfully it didn't happen considering Freddy can't get the ball down). And I still think they're going to go after Manny again if he ever gets off the DL. As it stands right now, no AL contender can block the Sox, though the Twins wouldn't risk it anyway.

GoGoCrede
08-11-2010, 11:34 AM
I really don't believe that Vizquel HASN'T been some sort of leader.

And KW wanting to be on camera, who cares? It was for the show.

happydude
08-11-2010, 11:35 AM
He's asked questions about how they play the game, and he gives them his honest feelings. The questions are asked, Ozzie answers them. If Gardenhire was asked similar questions about the Sox, what do you think he would say? He'd talk them up, even if some of it wasn't true, so he's not creating any type of bulletin board material. Whatever Ozzie's feelings are about the Twins, I've never gotten the feeling that he's afraid of them.

This is overreaction at its best. We had our worst starter on the bump for over the past month, he's been leaving everything up and clearly looks like he's running on empty. He got hit, and he got hit hard. They hit his beach balls and they won the game. Whether it was 12-6 or 1-0, it was still a loss. The next couple games we have our 2 best on the mound, let's wait and see how the series ends up, shall we?

Overreaction to what? I wasn't referencing last night's game or this season, in general. This was a general comment made in response to another general comment regarding the same topic. I never suggested Ozzie was afraid of the Twins; I suggested Hawk was. You can, however, infer from my comments that I believe both spend far too much time kissing Minnesota's ass. Not this year, particularly; but for the last few years.

balke
08-11-2010, 11:38 AM
He tried to do it anyway (thankfully it didn't happen considering Freddy can't get the ball down). And I still think they're going to go after Manny again if he ever gets off the DL. As it stands right now, no AL contender can block the Sox, though the Twins wouldn't risk it anyway.

If Boston falls out of the Wild Card - and don't call Delgado up by Sept. 1 - he becomes a free agent.

oeo
08-11-2010, 11:41 AM
Overreaction to what? I wasn't referencing last night's game or this season, in general. This was a general comment made in response to another general comment regarding the same topic. I never suggested Ozzie was afraid of the Twins; I suggested Hawk was. You can, however, infer from my comments that I believe both spend far too much time kissing Minnesota's ass. Not this year, particularly; but for the last few years.

Sorry, you responded to someone who seemed freaked out about last night, so I assumed you were in agreement with him. I should have just quoted Jerko.

oeo
08-11-2010, 11:43 AM
If Boston falls out of the Wild Card - and don't call Delgado up by Sept. 1 - he becomes a free agent.

Meh...again, I don't see Delgado as a legitimate option. Maybe I'm wrong, but the guy hasn't played in almost 2 years. I'd rather just let Teahen play if Ozzie would actually have the balls to bench Kotsay and let that happen.

Speaking of Teahen, how long is his rehab stint going to be? Get him up here, stick him in RF.

AlexRios51
08-11-2010, 12:02 PM
Gavin, Danks, the bullpen, and Konerko are just as important. I'd argue Pierre has been huge as well. Even Quentin with his 74 RBI.
True, but acquiring those two guys could really be the key. Danks, Gavin, Konerko and the bullpen will be fine, even Buehrle will be fine with his lack of consistency. We're missing one thing, a clutch hitter(besides Paulie and Rios), and we could POSSIBLY be getting him with Teahen returning. I'm not saying he will but he may heat up in his return.

balke
08-11-2010, 12:10 PM
True, but acquiring those two guys could really be the key. Danks, Gavin, Konerko and the bullpen will be fine, even Buehrle will be fine with his lack of consistency. We're missing one thing, a clutch hitter(besides Paulie and Rios), and we could POSSIBLY be getting him with Teahen returning. I'm not saying he will but he may heat up in his return.


I actually felt bad leaving Mark out. 9 of his past 10 starts were QS. He's really on a good run right now.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-11-2010, 12:14 PM
If the Sox win the division it will be because they took a chance on Alex Rios and Edwin Jackson.
I also saw something like that in someone's sig... it makes no sense to me.

pudge
08-11-2010, 12:17 PM
I wonder if the Sox would have gotten Jackson if Peavy was still around.

Bingo - this is why the Peavy injury was so devastating. Hudson could have been used for a hitter instead of Jackson. You saw the debate they were having on The Club - they never would have had that debate had Peavy been healthy. Now, who knows, Jackson may pay off next year or beyond, but it really hurt for this season, and it's why those first two months *may* have killed this season, but we don't know that yet.

happydude
08-11-2010, 12:23 PM
Sorry, you responded to someone who seemed freaked out about last night, so I assumed you were in agreement with him. I should have just quoted Jerko.

No apology is necessary, my friend; your reaction makes sense based on the circumstances. As for last night, I commented in the gamethread that we could get swept here and, with 47 games to go, would still be in good shape as long as we play well. So, no, I'm not freaking out.....yet. :smile:

JB98
08-11-2010, 12:26 PM
I really don't believe that Vizquel HASN'T been some sort of leader.

And KW wanting to be on camera, who cares? It was for the show.

I don't believe that either. When Vizquel was signed, I assumed he was done and wouldn't contribute much. The opposite has been true. He's been solid. The team's record has improved significantly since he started playing regularly.

The whole "no leadership among the Latins" sounds like bogus to me. First of all, this club has a Latino manager and a Latino bench coach and a Latino bullpen coach and a Latino filling in as the first-base coach. Second of all, everything I've heard and read suggests that Vizquel is revered by Latin players around the league. I don't think that's a problem for this club.

AJ being a mess in his free-agent year, that's a problem. I'll agree with the beat writer Lip spoke with on that point.

JB98
08-11-2010, 12:29 PM
Overreaction to what? I wasn't referencing last night's game or this season, in general. This was a general comment made in response to another general comment regarding the same topic. I never suggested Ozzie was afraid of the Twins; I suggested Hawk was. You can, however, infer from my comments that I believe both spend far too much time kissing Minnesota's ass. Not this year, particularly; but for the last few years.

Hawk's man love for the Twins is out of control and has been for years. I'm glad I'll be at work the next two evenings. I'll have the game on the TV, but the sound will have to be down so as to not disturb others. In the event the Sox play poorly tonight and/or tomorrow night, I don't want to listen to Hawk's crying. He's almost as bad as Circle Me Bert is on the Minnesota broadcasts.

Crestani
08-11-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't believe that either. When Vizquel was signed, I assumed he was done and wouldn't contribute much. The opposite has been true. He's been solid. The team's record has improved significantly since he started playing regularly.

The whole "no leadership among the Latins" sounds like bogus to me. First of all, this club has a Latino manager and a Latino bench coach and a Latino bullpen coach and a Latino filling in as the first-base coach. Second of all, everything I've heard and read suggests that Vizquel is revered by Latin players around the league. I don't think that's a problem for this club.

AJ being a mess in his free-agent year, that's a problem. I'll agree with the beat writer Lip spoke with on that point.


Vizquel has been a stud all year. Forget about being 43 years old, he has been playing very steady and has helped Alexei with his fielding and placement. I doubt he shows up 2 minutes before a ball game..But hey what do I know?

AJ is a mess at the plate trying to kill everything instead of going with the pitch like he has done in the past for whatever reason, which could be his contract status.

AlexRios51
08-11-2010, 12:47 PM
I also saw something like that in someone's sig... it makes no sense to me.
Guilty, you saw that in my sig.

Tragg
08-11-2010, 12:52 PM
After all that has been said on WSI, if we don't win the division its becoming very clear why and it comes down to these 2 things:

The loss of Peavy
The lack of a LH power hitter.

Thats it.
Well, the team's offense isn't very well conceived in general.
Strong investment in starting pitching might overcome it...hope it does.

SCCWS
08-11-2010, 01:17 PM
Nell:

Vizquel arrives just early enough, no leaders among the Latins.


Lip

Your source is full of BS. I heard a color announcer say recently that Vizquel comes out to the park early most days and works w Alexei.

SCCWS
08-11-2010, 01:18 PM
Meh...again, I don't see Delgado as a legitimate option. Maybe I'm wrong, but the guy hasn't played in almost 2 years. I'd rather just let Teahen play if Ozzie would actually have the balls to bench Kotsay and let that happen.

Speaking of Teahen, how long is his rehab stint going to be? Get him up here, stick him in RF.

Delgado has already started his rehab stint at AAA.

BadBobbyJenks
08-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Twins being our daddy is a pretty big reason.

oeo
08-11-2010, 01:33 PM
Delgado has already started his rehab stint at AAA.

Is that supposed to prove something?

southside rocks
08-11-2010, 01:45 PM
Nell:

I'd argue there is more to the story and part of it, maybe a big part is the mental state of this team particularly when it comes to playing Minnesota.

Over and above that I got this e-mail from one of the beat writers after Tuesday's performance. I was a little surprised by it, take it for what it's worth:

"Too many agendas on this team. AJ is a mental mess with free agency, Quentin a space cadet, Vizquel arrives just early enough, no leaders among the Latins.

This is a problem when a manager wants to be the face of the franchise and the GM wants to pose for the cameras."


Seems pretty harsh to me but I'm not around the club everyday obviously and there may be more going on than meets the eye or gets out to the fans. Ever since spring training it's been a strange year even by White Sox standards with everything that has gone on especially off the field.

Lip


If the beat writer has any spine, he'll write that kind of stuff in his coverage of the team and not just snark privately in e-mails that later find their way to internet boards. That's tacky.

soltrain21
08-11-2010, 01:51 PM
I refuse to believe Omar has been nothing but positive. Also - Quentin doesn't seem like a space cadet to me. Seems like the most focused person on the planet and that is part of the problem.

Lip Man 1
08-11-2010, 02:14 PM
Southside:

I hinted politely the same thing to the individual who I consider a good writer and a friend.

Regarding Omar I think (and this is just my take on the information) the writer feels this is an issue because it looks like different players have different rules. Some don't see a problem with that, others do...just depends on your point of view I guess.

And personally for years, I've been saying the Sox as a whole are a mentally weak club because in part, of the fact that Ozzie wants to be the voice of the locker room. With respect Ozzie isn't out there on the field anymore....players usually pay more attention to individuals going through the same thing they are and can personally relate to them when they blow up, offer advice, whatever the case may be.

This club as a whole has generally been to comfortable with things. That's also part of the reason I think, they lose so many games to genuinely bad teams. No one in the locker room playing holds anybody accountable. That appears to have been going on since they lost so many games to the absolutely dreadful Tigers back in I think, 2003.

Lip

Crestani
08-11-2010, 02:52 PM
Southside:

I hinted politely the same thing to the individual who I consider a good writer and a friend.

Regarding Omar I think (and this is just my take on the information) the writer feels this is an issue because it looks like different players have different rules. Some don't see a problem with that, others do...just depends on your point of view I guess.

And personally for years, I've been saying the Sox as a whole are a mentally weak club because in part, of the fact that Ozzie wants to be the voice of the locker room. With respect Ozzie isn't out there on the field anymore....players usually pay more attention to individuals going through the same thing they are and can personally relate to them when they blow up, offer advice, whatever the case may be.

This club as a whole has generally been to comfortable with things. That's also part of the reason I think, they lose so many games to genuinely bad teams. No one in the locker room playing holds anybody accountable. That appears to have been going on since they lost so many games to the absolutely dreadful Tigers back in I think, 2003.

Lip


Lip,

While I genially like reading all of your articles on past White Sox players, I strongly suggest that if some writer, (you included) has any information that confirms your statement, write it, print it, and publish it while divulging the source...That's my take on it..!!

Lip Man 1
08-11-2010, 03:25 PM
Crestani:

For the most part I agree with you which is why I told the writer of the e-mail my feelings that he or someone else should do what you suggest.

Regarding this e-mail sent to me, again because I'm not in the locker room everyday and don't have unlimited access from the White Sox even if I could do something long distance, I have no way of knowing what goes on and what doesn't.

I do know that players like Konerko, Buehrle, Dye and Thome, while very classy players and good people do not fit the type of personality that I am talking about. That's simply not their way and I think that hurts the team not having any "red-asses" as they say in baseball parlance on the club to keep everybody in line.

Over time the Sox have had a large number of these type players from Jim Landis to Carlton Fisk.

I just think this club badly needs some of that type.

And for whatever it's worth I've heard from a number of folks connected with the media and the club itself over the years basically saying the same thing. Ozzie runs the show and the players by and large are to passive.

Lip

Dan H
08-11-2010, 03:37 PM
The Twins are a good team but far from invinicable. If the White Sox are a real contender they should be able to beat anyone in their home park in a three game series. I know the team has flaws but they were in first place for almost a month. So now the Twins can take the division without a fight?

They have five more games with the Twins in the next week and need to win four of them. They don't need Thome to do that. If they lose this division by losing more head on head games with Minnesota, some real changes need to be made.

SCCWS
08-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Is that supposed to prove something?

Boston will either bring him up or it means he cannot play based on his injury. He will not be an option for White Sox to pick up.

happydude
08-11-2010, 04:29 PM
Hawk's man love for the Twins is out of control and has been for years. I'm glad I'll be at work the next two evenings. I'll have the game on the TV, but the sound will have to be down so as to not disturb others. In the event the Sox play poorly tonight and/or tomorrow night, I don't want to listen to Hawk's crying. He's almost as bad as Circle Me Bert is on the Minnesota broadcasts.

Lol. He seemed to be dying last night to hang that ass whipping we got on the umps but knew how absurd it would sound and so managed to hold his tongue.

Medford Bobby
08-11-2010, 04:33 PM
Crestani:

For the most part I agree with you which is why I told the writer of the e-mail my feelings that he or someone else should do what you suggest.

Regarding this e-mail sent to me, again because I'm not in the locker room everyday and don't have unlimited access from the White Sox even if I could do something long distance, I have no way of knowing what goes on and what doesn't.

I do know that players like Konerko, Buehrle, Dye and Thome, while very classy players and good people do not fit the type of personality that I am talking about. That's simply not their way and I think that hurts the team not having any "red-asses" as they say in baseball parlance on the club to keep everybody in line.

Over time the Sox have had a large number of these type players from Jim Landis to Carlton Fisk.

I just think this club badly needs some of that type.

And for whatever it's worth I've heard from a number of folks connected with the media and the club itself over the years basically saying the same thing. Ozzie runs the show and the players by and large are to passive.

Lip
Is that why Those "Nick Swisher" type personalities don't fit on this club?:scratch:

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 04:34 PM
Is that why Those "Nick Swisher" type personalities don't fit on this club?:scratch:
He showed someone his bobblehead! AHHHHHH.

Tragg
08-11-2010, 04:36 PM
And for whatever it's worth I've heard from a number of folks connected with the media and the club itself over the years basically saying the same thing. Ozzie runs the show and the players by and large are to passive.

Lip

The problem with that is that Williams has absolutely given away players because they were not compatible with Guillen's pristine clubhouse. It may have made the Sox a mentally weak team, but it also made the team less talented

TomBradley72
08-11-2010, 04:43 PM
The AJ stuff makes sense to me...I'm dissapointed in him letting his pending FA status get into his head so much.

Overall...up until the last few games I was pretty impressed with the chemistry developing on this team..they seemed to be really picking each other up, etc.

The stretch from early June through the Detroit series was pretty incredible...I think you have to be pretty mentally tough to pull that off.

kevingrt
08-11-2010, 04:51 PM
The AJ stuff makes sense to me...I'm dissapointed in him letting his pending FA status get into his head so much.

Overall...up until the last few games I was pretty impressed with the chemistry developing on this team..they seemed to be really picking each other up, etc.

The stretch from early June through the Detroit series was pretty incredible...I think you have to be pretty mentally tough to pull that off.

Aren't players like AJ suppose to play better going into their free agency period?

fram40
08-11-2010, 04:58 PM
Crestani:

For the most part I agree with you which is why I told the writer of the e-mail my feelings that he or someone else should do what you suggest.

Regarding this e-mail sent to me, again because I'm not in the locker room everyday and don't have unlimited access from the White Sox even if I could do something long distance, I have no way of knowing what goes on and what doesn't.

I do know that players like Konerko, Buehrle, Dye and Thome, while very classy players and good people do not fit the type of personality that I am talking about. That's simply not their way and I think that hurts the team not having any "red-asses" as they say in baseball parlance on the club to keep everybody in line.

Over time the Sox have had a large number of these type players from Jim Landis to Carlton Fisk.

I just think this club badly needs some of that type.

And for whatever it's worth I've heard from a number of folks connected with the media and the club itself over the years basically saying the same thing. Ozzie runs the show and the players by and large are to passive.

Lip

so you agree with Hawk? This team misses leadership from players such as Everett and Rowand? Surprising that AJ isn't that type in the locker room.

It is also surprising that Konerko is not that type considering that he called out Big Frank once when PK was much younger and clearly not the unquestioned elder statesman he is today.

I can understand some thinking this team is weak mentally.

oeo
08-11-2010, 05:03 PM
Boston will either bring him up or it means he cannot play based on his injury. He will not be an option for White Sox to pick up.

By not a legitimate option, I meant he probably wouldn't bring much value. Maybe a pinch hitter for September, but I wouldn't depend on Delgado, at 38 years old, to come in almost 2 years after he's last played and be a good enough bat to be an "answer".

Lip Man 1
08-11-2010, 05:04 PM
Fram:

For better or worse the dynamic in the clubhouse changed when Everett and Rowand left. They haven't been replaced in a leadership sense. Yes I agree with him on that point.

AJ used to be a red-ass but now that he's older he has changed a lot from what I've been told and his status going into next year certainly is concerning him (as it would anybody)

That incident you cite Konerko for is true and appears to be a very big exception to the rule of his personaily. (i.e. quiet, lead by example...)

Lip

SCCWS
08-11-2010, 05:22 PM
Fram:

For better or worse the dynamic in the clubhouse changed when Everett and Rowand left. They haven't been replaced in a leadership sense. Yes I agree with him on that point.


That incident you cite Konerko for is true and appears to be a very big exception to the rule of his personaily. (i.e. quiet, lead by example...)

Lip

HUH???? Lip, you are losing stuff off your fastball. Carl Everett a leader? Boston media tagged Carl Everett a "cancer in the clubhouse" when he was on Boston in 2001. He was quickly traded after the season. Below pretty much sums up Carl:

"Everett has stated that he thrives on being hated, and that it keeps him on top of his game. Opposing players, umpires, and even his own teammates are not immune.
Everett has also made controversial remarks about homosexuality. He once said that if he had an openly gay teammate that he would consider retiring, or, at the very least, "set him straight." In the 2005 season, he told Maxim that he has had gay teammates and accepted them, but, "Gays being gay is wrong. Two women can't produce a baby, two men can't produce a baby, so it's not how it's supposed to be. I don't believe in gay marriages. I don't believe in being gay."

balke
08-11-2010, 06:07 PM
The problem with that is that Williams has absolutely given away players because they were not compatible with Guillen's pristine clubhouse. It may have made the Sox a mentally weak team, but it also made the team less talented

Link? Source? Examples? Who was given away due to personality? The only "giveaway" I saw was Swisher and his 7 million dollar lack of talent. He was Mark Kotsay in 2008.

southside rocks
08-11-2010, 06:10 PM
Southside:

I hinted politely the same thing to the individual who I consider a good writer and a friend.

Regarding Omar I think (and this is just my take on the information) the writer feels this is an issue because it looks like different players have different rules. Some don't see a problem with that, others do...just depends on your point of view I guess.

And personally for years, I've been saying the Sox as a whole are a mentally weak club because in part, of the fact that Ozzie wants to be the voice of the locker room. With respect Ozzie isn't out there on the field anymore....players usually pay more attention to individuals going through the same thing they are and can personally relate to them when they blow up, offer advice, whatever the case may be.

This club as a whole has generally been to comfortable with things. That's also part of the reason I think, they lose so many games to genuinely bad teams. No one in the locker room playing holds anybody accountable. That appears to have been going on since they lost so many games to the absolutely dreadful Tigers back in I think, 2003.

Lip

Yeah, I have a problem with a writer being part of a rumor chain. If he or she won't put his name on that stuff, and show up in the locker room afterwards, then it's just Marriotti-ism.

It's also a fact that any given beat writer may have an agenda of his/her own and have dislikes for management or players on the club. That's another reason why the anonymous whispering is unprofessional: it hints strongly at just that.

Lip, I know what you mean about the mental toughness, but I think I disagree with you on that. A team that is not mentally tough does not do a turnaround like the one the Sox did this summer. The pressure is on them now to sustain that, another test of their mental toughness; we will see what they show us.

There are fewer players nowadays who will be the kind of leader you're talking about. Ask Carlton Fisk! But I am not convinced that the Twins have those players on their team; I think that the tone of that club is set by the organization, of which Ron Gardenhire is the face and the voice. Same for the Angels with Mike Scioscia.

Ozzie Guillen is well respected by his peers. I suggest that is worth more than the opinions of people who have never played or managed the game, like beat writers.

fram40
08-11-2010, 06:37 PM
Fram:

That incident you cite Konerko for is true and appears to be a very big exception to the rule of his personaily. (i.e. quiet, lead by example...)

Lip

As much as I love Frank - always did, always will - he needed to be called out. When Konerko did - he became my second favorite Sox of all time.

Behind Frank. Weird, huh?

Lip - Thanks for the responses.

fram40
08-11-2010, 06:42 PM
HUH???? Lip, you are losing stuff off your fastball. Carl Everett a leader? Boston media tagged Carl Everett a "cancer in the clubhouse" when he was on Boston in 2001. He was quickly traded after the season. Below pretty much sums up Carl:

"Everett has stated that he thrives on being hated, and that it keeps him on top of his game. Opposing players, umpires, and even his own teammates are not immune.
Everett has also made controversial remarks about homosexuality. He once said that if he had an openly gay teammate that he would consider retiring, or, at the very least, "set him straight." In the 2005 season, he told Maxim that he has had gay teammates and accepted them, but, "Gays being gay is wrong. Two women can't produce a baby, two men can't produce a baby, so it's not how it's supposed to be. I don't believe in gay marriages. I don't believe in being gay."

But Hawk has often stated that Everett brought an intensity to the club house that has not been replaced. And at times, it shows in their play

Even if those quotes are true - and they are, I've seen them before - it does not mean he can't be a leader in the club house.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 07:30 PM
Link? Source? Examples? Who was given away due to personality? The only "giveaway" I saw was Swisher and his 7 million dollar lack of talent. He was Mark Kotsay in 2008.
And tremendously valuable in 2009 and an all-star in 2010. What's your point?

balke
08-11-2010, 07:39 PM
But Hawk has often stated that Everett brought an intensity to the club house that has not been replaced. And at times, it shows in their play

Even if those quotes are true - and they are, I've seen them before - it does not mean he can't be a leader in the club house.


This is BS - Hawk gets paid to talk up players. Frank said on the air the other day - Carl was crazy and volatile. People in the clubhouse were uncomfortable around him. It came up when Garfien asserted that the Sox have never had to deal with a situation like Milton Bradley.

balke
08-11-2010, 07:42 PM
And tremendously valuable in 2009 and an all-star in 2010. What's your point?


My point is people harp on this trade like it was a big deal at a time they got nothing for him. Then the same people come on here and complain about Kotsay. Swisher was TERRIBLE in Chicago. He was Mark Kotsay and he cost a ton of money. He was traded for very little because he wasn't worth a crap.

Not a surprise he turned it on underneath the big lights. He was a bigtime attention whore from everything I ever saw about him. But anyone who thinks keeping him was the right decision was dead wrong. He would've never been good here.

fram40
08-11-2010, 07:58 PM
This is BS - Hawk gets paid to talk up players. Frank said on the air the other day - Carl was crazy and volatile. People in the clubhouse were uncomfortable around him. It came up when Garfien asserted that the Sox have never had to deal with a situation like Milton Bradley.

Hawk is paid to talk up players after they leave? Hawk made those statements after "The Truth" had left. He mentioned more than once in 2006 that the team was missing something, some intensity. Something that Everett brought. In this specific instance, I believe Hawk before Frank.

I admit I have no idea what it is like in the clubhouse. I am just repeating what Hawk has said - and it appears some of the beat writers (and Lip) agree. Although only Lip goes on the record.

We'll also never know the truth and what this team is missing. IF it is missing anything.

balke
08-11-2010, 08:04 PM
Hawk is paid to talk up players after they leave? Hawk made those statements after "The Truth" had left. He mentioned more than once in 2006 that the team was missing something, some intensity. Something that Everett brought. In this specific instance, I believe Hawk before Frank.

I admit I have no idea what it is like in the clubhouse. I am just repeating what Hawk has said - and it appears some of the beat writers (and Lip) agree. Although only Lip goes on the record.

We'll also never know the truth and what this team is missing. IF it is missing anything.

Well when Thome came he said Thome was an instant leader. And year in and year out he says Konerko is the leader. When Thome came in he said it would be an interesting dynamic having 2 leaders like that.

So this whole talk going on right now baffles me - obviously there's been a surplus of leaders in recent years. And as far as I'm concerned Konerko's always been a leader on this team - and I would assume AJ is a leader or at least a counterbalance for Konerko.

And I frankly don't see why the manager being a leader would be a bad thing. If Ozzie is steering the ship - I say kudos. That has to be a major accomplishment when you are dealing with Major League egos.

fram40
08-11-2010, 08:41 PM
Well when Thome came he said Thome was an instant leader. And year in and year out he says Konerko is the leader. When Thome came in he said it would be an interesting dynamic having 2 leaders like that.

So this whole talk going on right now baffles me - obviously there's been a surplus of leaders in recent years. And as far as I'm concerned Konerko's always been a leader on this team - and I would assume AJ is a leader or at least a counterbalance for Konerko.

And I frankly don't see why the manager being a leader would be a bad thing. If Ozzie is steering the ship - I say kudos. That has to be a major accomplishment when you are dealing with Major League egos.

good points. Maybe there is a difference between leadership and bringing intensity. Because in Hawk's case (and I hope I said this above) he always emphasized the intensity that Everett (and Rowand) brought to the clubhouse.

Everett pretty much said the same thing when the Sox let him go - that the Sox would miss the intensity the two brought.

Maybe Danks can bring the intensity - he is pitching a hell of a game so far.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 09:32 PM
Not a surprise he turned it on underneath the big lights. He was a bigtime attention whore from everything I ever saw about him. But anyone who thinks keeping him was the right decision was dead wrong. He would've never been good here.
Illogical reasoning is illogical.

balke
08-11-2010, 09:45 PM
Illogical reasoning is illogical.

Then I'll go back to straight facts and logic. If you can't hit .220 and can't produce 70 RBI in 500 ABs - you don't deserve 7 millions dollars as an OFer.

.743 OPS in 2008. Rob Mackowiak could've posted that. At the time - the Sox were blessed to find someone to take on that contract and get him off the team.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 09:47 PM
Then I'll go back to straight facts and logic. If you can't hit .220 and can't produce 70 RBI in 500 ABs - you don't deserve 7 millions dollars as an OFer.

.743 OPS in 2008. Rob Mackowiak could've posted that. At the time - the Sox were blessed to find someone to take on that contract and get him off the team.
And the Yankees were much, much more blessed to find a team willing to take piles of hot garbage for a versatile player who would hit .270/.369/.514 for them.

balke
08-11-2010, 10:03 PM
And the Yankees were much, much more blessed to find a team willing to take piles of hot garbage for a versatile player who would hit .270/.369/.514 for them.

Piles of money more correctly. +20 million. Money that has been applied to players like Rios who filled a real void the Sox had - CF. Something Swisher could not play. RF between Dye and Quentin has not been a problem.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Piles of money more correctly. +20 million. Money that has been applied to players like Rios who filled a real void the Sox had - CF. Something Swisher could not play. RF between Dye and Quentin has not been a problem.
Yes, RF last season and DH this season couldn't have been aided by Swisher's production.

balke
08-11-2010, 10:14 PM
Yes, RF last season and DH this season couldn't have been aided by Swisher's production.

Considering Dye was one of the best players in the league in the first half - I'd agree.

I'll lay it out in all honesty for you - I don't think Walker could've gotten Swisher to where he is. Swisher would still be here hitting below .250 striking out 130 times a season being terrible. Cry all you want over him - I won't. He's in the perfect spot. In the spotlight with instructors who knew what he needed to do to get to the next level.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 10:22 PM
Considering Dye was one of the best players in the league in the first half - I'd agree.

I'll lay it out in all honesty for you - I don't think Walker could've gotten Swisher to where he is. Swisher would still be here hitting below .250 striking out 130 times a season being terrible. Cry all you want over him - I won't. He's in the perfect spot. In the spotlight with instructors who knew what he needed to do to get to the next level.
Or he had a low BABIP, and everyone, literally everyone knew he would bounce back.

balke
08-11-2010, 10:30 PM
Or he had a low BABIP, and everyone, literally everyone knew he would bounce back.

He posted 1 more RBI than Dye last year and had 3 more HR. Big loss. For a RFer .250 and 30 HRs is what you expect - not what you cry about losing.

He's extremely replaceable. I wouldn't trade Quentin for him ever. Bouncing back to .250... what a freaking joke.

Craig Grebeck
08-11-2010, 10:56 PM
He posted 1 more RBI than Dye last year and had 3 more HR. Big loss. For a RFer .250 and 30 HRs is what you expect - not what you cry about losing.

He's extremely replaceable. I wouldn't trade Quentin for him ever. Bouncing back to .250... what a freaking joke.
Illogical post is illogical. Counting stats -- are we trading baseball cards or discussing a player's value?