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View Full Version : Jenks still the closer. no illusion of a committee


It's Dankerific
08-07-2010, 02:23 AM
At Least Ozzie is being honest now. Jenks is the closer, and thats that.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0807-brite-white-sox-orioles-c20100806,0,7294843.story

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 02:42 AM
Well the question is if you don't use Bobby as the closer, where do you use him? This team already has Linebrink doing mopup, Sale as the designated question mark and Pena doing long relief.

If you can't trust Bobby to close do you really want him doing setup duties? That move Putz or Santos to closer because Thornton has to be available for LHH in case it's needed. Often he'll be called on to work whatever setup inning has the middle of the order with a majority of lefties coming up.

Ozzie is right that Bobby as the closer makes the bullpen over all stronger, if Bobby can succeed. If not the team has other problems to solve in terms of late inning relievers because they'd only have three (though honestly I expect to see Linebrink start to get some more important innings if he continues to pitch well).

There are no easy answers here, so the best solution maybe to express support and confidence in Jenks, leave things alone and hope for the best.

hawkjt
08-07-2010, 09:25 AM
Well the question is if you don't use Bobby as the closer, where do you use him? This team already has Linebrink doing mopup, Sale as the designated question mark and Pena doing long relief.

If you can't trust Bobby to close do you really want him doing setup duties? That move Putz or Santos to closer because Thornton has to be available for LHH in case it's needed. Often he'll be called on to work whatever setup inning has the middle of the order with a majority of lefties coming up.

Ozzie is right that Bobby as the closer makes the bullpen over all stronger, if Bobby can succeed. If not the team has other problems to solve in terms of late inning relievers because they'd only have three (though honestly I expect to see Linebrink start to get some more important innings if he continues to pitch well).

There are no easy answers here, so the best solution maybe to express support and confidence in Jenks, leave things alone and hope for the best.


Makes sense. We have no choice,and Bobby did not throw that badly,just missed a couple of breaking balls. He still has the big heat,so he is healthy. Roll with it.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 10:07 AM
Well the question is if you don't use Bobby as the closer, where do you use him? This team already has Linebrink doing mopup, Sale as the designated question mark and Pena doing long relief.

If you can't trust Bobby to close do you really want him doing setup duties? That move Putz or Santos to closer because Thornton has to be available for LHH in case it's needed. Often he'll be called on to work whatever setup inning has the middle of the order with a majority of lefties coming up.

Ozzie is right that Bobby as the closer makes the bullpen over all stronger, if Bobby can succeed. If not the team has other problems to solve in terms of late inning relievers because they'd only have three (though honestly I expect to see Linebrink start to get some more important innings if he continues to pitch well).

There are no easy answers here, so the best solution maybe to express support and confidence in Jenks, leave things alone and hope for the best.
When Bobby is a good pitcher he makes the pen stronger. That, of course, isn't guaranteed. I'd bury his ass on the bench, personally.

tstrike2000
08-07-2010, 10:16 AM
Makes sense. We have no choice,and Bobby did not throw that badly,just missed a couple of breaking balls. He still has the big heat,so he is healthy. Roll with it.

That's just it, he did throw badly. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Bottom line is this team really needs him to close consistantly. The "big heat" is nice, but if it's the only pitch he can get over the plate then it's pretty much game over. His curve ball is either really biting, a hanger, or he loses confidence in it and essentially becomes a one pitch pitcher.

kobo
08-07-2010, 10:53 AM
When Bobby is a good pitcher he makes the pen stronger. That, of course, isn't guaranteed. I'd bury his ass on the bench, personally.
Burying his ass on the bench weakens the bullpen. Bobby is frustrating, but he's the best option to close right now. Do you want to weaken the bullpen just to give Putz a chance to close? Because there is no one else in the pen that I think can be an effective closer.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 11:14 AM
Burying his ass on the bench weakens the bullpen. Bobby is frustrating, but he's the best option to close right now. Do you want to weaken the bullpen just to give Putz a chance to close? Because there is no one else in the pen that I think can be an effective closer.
Is there something wrong with letting Putz close?

goon
08-07-2010, 11:29 AM
Is there something wrong with letting Putz close?

Certainly no harm in trying. However, JJ Putz hasn't been an effective closer or even a closer at all since 2007. He's been so great has a set-up guy, might be a very big mistake to tinker with him this late in the season.

Sergio Santos is a better option.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 11:33 AM
Sergio Santos is a better option.

You got to remember this is the first full year Santos has ever pitched. There was a story in the Trib earlier this week in which he openly admitted he's starting to feel the effects of a long season. I think Sergio's future is the closer's role, but not this season.

goon
08-07-2010, 11:41 AM
You got to remember this is the first full year Santos has ever pitched. There was a story in the Trib earlier this week in which he openly admitted he's starting to feel the effects of a long season. I think Sergio's future is the closer's role, but not this season.

He has the best stuff out of anyone in the bullpen and he isn't being used in an important role already. I'd rather have him there then a JJ, who this team needs as a set-up RHP and hasn't been a successful closer in 3 years.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 11:44 AM
He has the best stuff out of anyone in the bullpen and he isn't being used in an important role already. I'd rather have him there then a JJ, who this team needs as a set-up RHP and hasn't been a successful closer in 3 years.

That "JJ hasn't been a closer in 3 years" line really loses its luster when you turn around and advocate for a guy who has been a pitcher for less than 1 1/2 years.

goon
08-07-2010, 11:44 AM
That "JJ hasn't been a closer in 3 years line" really loses its luster when you turn around and advocate for a guy who has been a pitcher for less than 1 1/2 years.

Every good closer has to start somewhere.

Every bad closer has to stop somewhere.

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 11:45 AM
When Bobby is a good pitcher he makes the pen stronger. That, of course, isn't guaranteed. I'd bury his ass on the bench, personally.

And do what for your 4th reliable late inning guy? Putz and Thornton haven't exactly been perfect recently either and any loss of a reliable arm adds stress to those guys. Santos is still a rookie too even if he is the likely closer next year.

Have to keep trying to get the best from Bobby.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 11:48 AM
Every good closer has to start somewhere.

Every bad closer has to stop somewhere.

And where, precisely, during his run of 27 consecutive scoreless appearances did you determine JJ Putz absolutely cannot handle closing duties any longer?

southside rocks
08-07-2010, 11:56 AM
When Bobby is a good pitcher he makes the pen stronger. That, of course, isn't guaranteed. I'd bury his ass on the bench, personally.

That's not a realistic option and it's not one that's used by managers to any great extent. If a player is not performing, he may see limited or selected use -- Scott Linebrink is an example of that -- and if a player is a problem for the club, he will be taken off the roster somehow -- Milton Bradley, Carlos Zambrano -- but rostered players don't get "buried on the bench". The damage done to the team by that move is greater than any benefits derived from it, not to mention the chance that the player may have a grievance against the club.

Ozzie is putting this where it belongs: on Jenks. If Bobby can handle the closer role, then he will show it in his future outings. If he can't, then my guess is he will be traded -- it would be very awkward for all concerned to do much else with him.

My own theory is that there is a physical problem that Bobby has that we're not hearing about. I hope whatever is wrong is addressed effectively, and pretty quickly too.

goon
08-07-2010, 11:56 AM
And where, precisely, during his run of 27 consecutive scoreless appearances did you determine JJ Putz absolutely cannot handle closing duties any longer?

Last year he blew as many saves as he had. The year before he blew 8 before losing his job. Just because he's been effective as set-up guy, doesn't mean he can close games. If you need an example, you can just look at the Sox roster and Matt Thornton is a dominant pitcher, just can't close games.

It's also the idea of shifting around everyone in the bullpen. The only guy having trouble is Jenks, if Putz is closing, who is our other late inning guy? Jenks, Santos? You're changing around the entire dynamic of the bullpen if Putz goes there. I don't see the point in messing around with what has been working, take the guy with the most talent, who has been bouncing around in late innings, early innings, extra innings and give him a shot.

kufram
08-07-2010, 12:18 PM
Exactly how many games has the bullpen let us down. I know with Bobby personally the count is three since the ASB and we won one of those. Making moves to realign something that has been working all year is asking for a bigger problem than we already have.

I suppose finding a replacement is not unheard of because Bobby came in mid-season, a rookie, because two other guys didn't work out and he ended up being absolutely dominant. But I think he blew a save in the post-season in '05 didn't he? Another game we won, I believe. I could be wrong as i'm relying on memory. I'm sure nobody is letting any great closer go this time of year for us to pick up.

Ozzie and everybody on the team has to show complete confidence in him, even when he blows one, or you might as well let him go and then you have a crap shoot. Then your best option is Santos because you really don't want to lose the Thornton/Putz 7th/8th. But you lose the Santos 6th when needed.

It sounds easy, doesn't it? Bobby's blown a couple... trade him, bench him (like we need that problem sitting on the bench every day), something, ANYTHING will do. It ain't that simple. I think KW, Coop, and Ozzie have the problem in their minds and will take the course best suited for success. I'm not sure what that is, but I'll bet it is keep putting him in there for now.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 12:26 PM
Whatever happens, we all know his ass will be non-tendered in the winter. Good riddance.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Whatever happens, we all know his ass will be non-tendered in the winter. Good riddance.

Classy.

kufram
08-07-2010, 12:45 PM
Whatever happens, we all know his ass will be non-tendered in the winter. Good riddance.


Well, I'll hope for his resurgence (I don't think that is at all impossible) and a closing role that goes at least into the playoffs but hopefully deep.... and then we trade him and get something valuable in return.

p.s. I don't want him back next year even if he close 7 world series games.... umm I mean 4, but it could be 7, couldn't it?

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 12:50 PM
Classy.
I have a hard time getting wispy about Jenks when he has been consistently petulant and ungrateful in the media about his performance and fan support.

Zisk77
08-07-2010, 12:55 PM
That's just it, he did throw badly. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Bottom line is this team really needs him to close consistantly. The "big heat" is nice, but if it's the only pitch he can get over the plate then it's pretty much game over. His curve ball is either really biting, a hanger, or he loses confidence in it and essentially becomes a one pitch pitcher.


I actually think he has the opposite problem. Most closers are one or two pitch pitchers. Bobby has an array of good pitches which sometimes leads to Jose DeLeon/Javy Vasquez syndrome. Thats wear you have like 5 good pitches but on any given night one isn't sharp but you insist on throwing everything in your arsenal and get beat on your worst pitch instead of keeping it simply.

Example was Sunday. Bobby had a good Fb. Bobby had a good change. Bobby had no feel for the curve, but castro kept calling it and Bobby kept accepting it.

Bobby actually thows the following:

Four seem straight fb (high mph little to no movement)
2 seem Fb that rides in on righty
cut fastball (moves away from righty)
Sinker

12/6 curve...but sometimes changes the tilt

Slider

change.

Thats essentially 7 pitches. He just needs to use 2 or 3 that are working best each outing and scrap the rest IMHO.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 12:55 PM
I have a hard time getting wispy about Jenks when he has been consistently petulant and ungrateful in the media about his performance and fan support.

And he was on the hill when the Sox won their first World Series title in 88 years, so spare me if I still have a soft spot for him.

kufram
08-07-2010, 01:03 PM
And he was on the hill when the Sox won their first World Series title in 88 years, so spare me if I still have a soft spot for him.


The beard wasn't on the hill that night, though. It could go. I actually think THAT would be the best thing to do... lose the beard!

kufram
08-07-2010, 01:06 PM
[/B]


I actually think he has the opposite problem. Most closers are one or two pitch pitchers. Bobby has an array of good pitches which sometimes leads to Jose DeLeon/Javy Vasquez syndrome. Thats wear you have like 5 good pitches but on any given night one isn't sharp but you insist on throwing everything in your arsenal and get beat on your worst pitch instead of keeping it simply.

Example was Sunday. Bobby had a good Fb. Bobby had a good change. Bobby had no feel for the curve, but castro kept calling it and Bobby kept accepting it.

Bobby actually thows the following:

Four seem straight fb (high mph little to no movement)
2 seem Fb that rides in on righty
cut fastball (moves away from righty)
Sinker

12/6 curve...but sometimes changes the tilt

Slider

change.

Thats essentially 7 pitches. He just needs to use 2 or 3 that are working best each outing and scrap the rest IMHO.


I agree. More is less

goon
08-07-2010, 01:26 PM
And he was on the hill when the Sox won their first World Series title in 88 years, so spare me if I still have a soft spot for him.

Agreed. This guy was an important part of that team and has been a good closer for Sox for years.

Jollyroger2
08-07-2010, 01:30 PM
Agreed. This guy was an important part of that team and has been a good closer for Sox for years.

That's wonderful consolation when you look at him now. The Sox would have a 4 or 5 game lead in the division if he'd have done his job recently. Nothing like having a closer with a 5+ ERA (10+ since the ASB).

I appreciate Jenks as much as everyone else for what he did five years ago, and for his contributions this season. But if he's going to keep blowing games and not getting the job done THIS year, in a tight pennant race, he shouldn't be out there period.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 01:40 PM
And he was on the hill when the Sox won their first World Series title in 88 years, so spare me if I still have a soft spot for him.
That's perfectly fine.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 02:01 PM
That's wonderful consolation when you look at him now. The Sox would have a 4 or 5 game lead in the division if he'd have done his job recently. Nothing like having a closer with a 5+ ERA (10+ since the ASB).

I appreciate Jenks as much as everyone else for what he did five years ago, and for his contributions this season. But if he's going to keep blowing games and not getting the job done THIS year, in a tight pennant race, he shouldn't be out there period.

Yeah, let the record show I'm not saying I want him back in 2011, or that I even want him closing games in 2010. He just might be done for.

I'm just not going to say "good riddance" to a World Series hero. He deserves more from us.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 02:09 PM
Yeah, let the record show I'm not saying I want him back in 2011, or that I even want him closing games in 2010. He just might be done for.

I'm just not going to say "good riddance" to a World Series hero. He deserves more from us.
I guess I'm unwilling to call him a hero. He blew game two and did his job in the other games. He's not Crede or Dye or Konerko or even Scotty Pods.

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2010, 02:43 PM
Is there something wrong with letting Putz close?

There would be nothing wrong with it if Ozzie did it. That's because Ozzie is always right. How do we know this? Because he's never wrong! And how can we prove this? 2005! 2008! And because you never played professional baseball!

:bandance:

soxlady8
08-07-2010, 02:58 PM
I am truly hoping Bobby is just in a funk right now and he will somewhat return to the dominate pitcher he used to be. Bobby over the last year or so has had some crap to deal w (illness last year around this time , wife's health issues a few weeks ago. ) and I am sure that it hasn't been easy to deal with .

Like Toyota says - Moving Forward !
That is what Bobby needs to do to help this team get to the postseason.

kufram
08-07-2010, 03:10 PM
There would be nothing wrong with it if Ozzie did it. That's because Ozzie is always right. How do we know this? Because he's never wrong! And how can we prove this? 2005! 2008! And because you never played professional baseball!

Geez.. and it was such a friendly debate.

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2010, 03:12 PM
Geez.. and it was such a friendly debate.

I wasn't being unfriendly. :smile:

I hope Jenks recovers. However, the only reason Jenks got a shot in 2005 is because Shingo (early in the year) and Hermanson (late in the year) ultimately failed as closers.

kufram
08-07-2010, 03:54 PM
I wasn't being unfriendly. :smile:

I hope Jenks recovers. However, the only reason Jenks got a shot in 2005 is because Shingo (early in the year) and Hermanson (late in the year) ultimately failed as closers.


Ok, sorry. I think Hermie failed only due to a very bad back.

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Ok, sorry. I think Hermie failed only due to a very bad back.

No problem. :smile:

I think you're right about Hermanson.

I'm not sure Jenks has an injury or physical problem. But whatever the reason, he's becoming less reliable.

kufram
08-07-2010, 04:51 PM
No problem. :smile:

I think you're right about Hermanson.

I'm not sure Jenks has an injury or physical problem. But whatever the reason, he's becoming less reliable.

There is no doubt about that. I think it's possible that it is just a confidence thing... anyway, it doesn't matter what the reason is. I don't know the answer but I sense the bullpen is little fragile right now and Bobby Jenks is the piece that could cause others to fail in roles different to what they have been. A few save-less wins would be of help.

All players eventually fail. I probably get a little defensive because I don't think that means they are legitimate targets for name-calling and slander. I'm not implying that you are one who does that. 2005 seems a long time ago to some people but not to me. This team has the feel that team had and I'm hopeful that they will fight through all the bumps they are going to have go over. Bobby might not make it this year, but at the moment he's still MIA not declared DOA in my opinion.

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 06:46 PM
There would be nothing wrong with it if Ozzie did it. That's because Ozzie is always right. How do we know this? Because he's never wrong! And how can we prove this? 2005! 2008! And because you never played professional baseball!

:bandance:

No no no... Obviously 2005 and 2008 prove nothing about Ozzie's management ability and this year means even less. He hasn't won every single World Series since he got given the job out of pure nepotism and the fact that JR is cheap and KW is delusional, so obviously any blind, deaf and dumb monkey can do the job. Since the people who have been hammering Ozzie since he failed to repeat in 2006 clearly are at least one step up the evolutionary and intelligence ladder from the aforementioned monkey (at least in theory) they should be able to do the job just fine...

pudge
08-07-2010, 08:21 PM
There are no easy answers here, so the best solution maybe to express support and confidence in Jenks, leave things alone and hope for the best.

Why is that the best solution? Again, why is there even such a role as a "closer"? Why can't Putz, Thorton, Santos or Jenks fill that role as needed? For example, when Jenks let the first two guys on against Detroit, his behind should have been yanked. Would someone else have been able to successfully close the door? I don't know. But why leave a guy in there when he doesn't have it?

Is nobody in baseball actually allowed to think out of the box?

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-07-2010, 08:40 PM
I am truly hoping Bobby is just in a funk right now and he will somewhat return to the dominate pitcher he used to be. Bobby over the last year or so has had some crap to deal w (illness last year around this time , wife's health issues a few weeks ago. ) and I am sure that it hasn't been easy to deal with .

Like Toyota says - Moving Forward !
That is what Bobby needs to do to help this team get to the postseason.

From what I understand, Jenks' wife has cancer (?). No clue if that's true but that's what I heard from someone that has a friend working for the Sox. If true, then that makes a whole lot of sense as to why he's so off/on. If someone else knows more or can correct me then please do. I'd hate to start some weird rumor about Jenks and his family.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 08:53 PM
From what I understand, Jenks' wife has cancer (?). No clue if that's true but that's what I heard from someone that has a friend working for the Sox. If true, then that makes a whole lot of sense as to why he's so off/on. If someone else knows more or can correct me then please do. I'd hate to start some weird rumor about Jenks and his family.
I'm not going to discredit you or say the possibility is negligible, but it's not as though Jenks' career doesn't follow the arc of many relief pitchers. Burst onto the scene, flame out quickly.

Many things would explain his inconsistency. Though, if true, that's tragic.

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2010, 08:54 PM
No no no... Obviously 2005 and 2008 prove nothing about Ozzie's management ability and this year means even less. He hasn't won every single World Series since he got given the job out of pure nepotism and the fact that JR is cheap and KW is delusional, so obviously any blind, deaf and dumb monkey can do the job. Since the people who have been hammering Ozzie since he failed to repeat in 2006 clearly are at least one step up the evolutionary and intelligence ladder from the aforementioned monkey (at least in theory) they should be able to do the job just fine...

Voodoo, you know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, even with Ozzie.

He's good at some things, like managing a clubhouse, taking pressure off his players, and handling his starting pitchers.

But he's lousy at identifying talent (other than at the shortstop position), is completely predictable with his bullpen decisions, and is stubborn about continuing to stick with veteran hitters (especially if they are left-handed) even when they continue to suck.

spongyfungy
08-07-2010, 10:03 PM
He's OUT

for now

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 10:15 PM
Why is that the best solution? Again, why is there even such a role as a "closer"? Why can't Putz, Thorton, Santos or Jenks fill that role as needed? For example, when Jenks let the first two guys on against Detroit, his behind should have been yanked. Would someone else have been able to successfully close the door? I don't know. But why leave a guy in there when he doesn't have it?

Is nobody in baseball actually allowed to think out of the box?

Sure they are, but they often don't. Ozzie has left Thornton in to close games in the past when a strong batch of LHH is due up.

And it's just my opinion that the bullpen is stronger with Bobby as the full time closer. Of course Ozzie seems to just be ****ing with all of us. Says it's by committee so Jenks closes until he blows one then he promptly gives Jenks a vote of confidence and immediately goes with Putz... It cracks me up...:D:

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 10:24 PM
Voodoo, you know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, even with Ozzie.

He's good at some things, like managing a clubhouse, taking pressure off his players, and handling his starting pitchers.

But he's lousy at identifying talent (other than at the shortstop position), is completely predictable with his bullpen decisions, and is stubborn about continuing to stick with veteran hitters (especially if they are left-handed) even when they continue to suck.

Well I think the implied teal in my post was pretty evident. Yes, I think there's a middle ground, but I rarely see the people screaming for Ozzie's head acknowledge it. I don't love every decision Ozzie makes, but I do try to understand the logic behind it. Others seem to have some kind of book they rely on to guide their analysis of the game and every time ozzie deviates from their book they get riled up. I tend to go the other way, assuming my book isn't as good as the one Ozzie is looking at and I think I learn something about the game from both sides of the discussion, just think Ozzie's book of knowledge, situational awareness, pulse of the clubhouse and over all experience make him a stronger bet to back in almost every case. Often when people are screaming about a certain situation for a long period of time it turns out they didn't have all the information in front of them (no shock there, none of us do). For example the Viciedo situation where it turns out the Sox were intentionally not using him against RHP and not as DH because part of the reason he's up is due to Alexei and not because he's expected to be this year's Beckham.

When people disagree with that, they scream 2005! 2008! and assume I or others are giving him a lifetime pass and no I'm not. He's got another 5 or so years though before I start to worry and if he makes the playoffs this year, THEN he gets a lifetime pass and honestly, I think anyone who thinks differently is grinding some other axe than baseball related results though I hesitate to speculate what that axe might be.

I also think there are some posters who are so emotionally invested in the position they took this past off season and spring that they are unwilling to put it down. I expect some of those same posters will be the people grinding the axe I mentioned above...

TDog
08-07-2010, 10:29 PM
I have a hard time getting wispy about Jenks when he has been consistently petulant and ungrateful in the media about his performance and fan support.

Not unlike a certain Frank Thomas when he played with the Sox.

Thornton would have closed tonight's game, of course, if he hadn't been brought in to face the tough lefties at the top of the order. Had the Orioles tied tonight's game in the ninth and the Sox sored in the 10th, Jenks would have closed.

People make too much out of this closer thing.

Tragg
08-07-2010, 10:32 PM
and if he makes the playoffs this year, THEN he gets a lifetime pass and honestly, I think anyone who thinks differently is grinding some other axe than baseball related results though I hesitate to speculate what that axe might be.

What's so special about this year? This is a high payroll, veteran team with an immense investment in starting pitching. It should hardly take managerial legerdemain for this team to make the playoffs.
Oh, and the biggest personnel weakness of this team is because of a decision HE made.
We're in a division where 40% of the teams don't really try to win.
This team should be in the playoffs regularly. Guillen's a top level manager if you keep him away from personnel decisions. But I see no reason for lifetime passes.

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 10:36 PM
What's so special about this year? This is a high payroll, veteran team with an immense investment in starting pitching. It should hardly take managerial legerdemain for this team to make the playoffs.
Oh, and the biggest personnel weakness of this team is because of a decision HE made.
We're in a division where 40% of the teams don't really try to win.
This team should be in the playoffs regularly.

It won't be specifically this year, but the fact he will have made the playoffs in 3 out of 6. Has any Sox manager ever done that before?

Oh and the Twins try plenty hard to win year in and year out. I'd think that would be evident by now. In addition, the Tigers have completely blown up their payroll since 2006 so the whole ALC is weak and no one tries to win is provably false, IMO. No there aren't any Yankees in this division, but that's because there's only one Yankees.

Tragg
08-07-2010, 10:44 PM
It won't be specifically this year, but the fact he will have made the playoffs in 3 out of 6. Has any Sox manager ever done that before?

Oh and the Twins try plenty hard to win year in and year out. I'd think that would be evident by now. In addition, the Tigers have completely blown up their payroll since 2006 so the whole ALC is weak and no one tries to win is provably false, IMO. No there aren't any Yankees in this division, but that's because there's only one Yankees.

No Sox manager has done that, but he's also managing a well-funded, talented team (something many of his predecessors didn't get). As it is, the early 1990s teams would probably have made the playoffs a few times under the wild card and without the strike. And if you go before JR's era, my gosh, the Sox operated on the equivalent of tin cups and string for 40 years.
I think he's a top shelf manager, if you keep him away from the offense (personnel decisions and hitting approach).
But this team SHOULD win.

I know the Twins and Tigers try, and they try hard just like we do. But they don't have Boston and NY's resources. I'm not sure they have Seattle or the Angels' either. The Twins with a competitive budget portend to be an even bigger pain in the ass for us in the next decade.

Re the point of this thread, Jenks comes in with the bases empty most of the time. He's blown only 3 saves. Even if he isn't pitching that great, would we be better off putting him in Putz' role, who comes in more sometimes with runners on base? This, I'll leave up to the Oz.

Domeshot17
08-07-2010, 11:13 PM
Wait, so if the Sox win the division you want to give Ozzie a lifetime pass? Just want to make sure I have this right.

2005 he did a good job staying out of the way, but 2005 was as much to do with career years out of, well, everyone then some managerial mastermind.

2006 was tough, He cost us a few wins by constantly ignoring centerfield D, but much more to blame were Buehrle and Contreras ****ting the bed.

2007 was a disaster

2008 was a product of a bad division, and tough to grasp in some areas. He got the team prepared well for the final few games, but they also layed an egg before that and checked out after the blackout game as they were pretty much sleepwalking through that ALDS.

2009 was another disaster, this one really on Ozzie. It was a speedy grindy team that didn't strike out much, and it got us no where.

2010 is TBD, but again our division is very down. If we get bounced in round 1 again, especially without putting up much of a fight, I honestly would hardly be impressed by Ozzie.

Personally I think 2008 was his best year managing. 2005 he did fine, but it was probably more an example of how the Manager can take too much blame or get too much credit.......

The only problem I have with Ozzie is he thinks NL ball can win the AL and he gets involved in front office moves. Add that to the fact he thinks he is bigger than the team and his out bursts and I have just soured on him. I think he used to be a very good motivator, and I think the players tune him out now.

I have no problem not firing Ozzie after the year if we win the division (although I probably would fire him if we miss the playoffs). But unless we are talking about a Bobby Cox calibur manager, no one gets a lifetime pass.

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 11:15 PM
Wait, so if the Sox win the division you want to give Ozzie a lifetime pass? Just want to make sure I have this right

I deleted the part that wasn't pertinent to my reply...

Yes.

Edit: Oh and just to make sure I'm not sending any false message. I didn't bother to read the part I deleted either. I said my opinion. You asked if I honestly hold that opinion. I answered that question too. The rest doesn't matter.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 11:25 PM
Not unlike a certain Frank Thomas when he played with the Sox.

Thornton would have closed tonight's game, of course, if he hadn't been brought in to face the tough lefties at the top of the order. Had the Orioles tied tonight's game in the ninth and the Sox sored in the 10th, Jenks would have closed.

People make too much out of this closer thing.
Don't ever compare those two.

Nellie_Fox
08-08-2010, 01:22 AM
Why is that the best solution? Again, why is there even such a role as a "closer"? Why can't Putz, Thorton, Santos or Jenks fill that role as needed? For example, when Jenks let the first two guys on against Detroit, his behind should have been yanked. Would someone else have been able to successfully close the door? I don't know. But why leave a guy in there when he doesn't have it?

Is nobody in baseball actually allowed to think out of the box?Because when you bring your closer in, you don't have someone else up and throwing. The closer is the end of the line. It takes a while to get someone else ready once you realize he doesn't have it that day. NOBODY has another reliever throwing when they bring their closer in.

doublem23
08-08-2010, 05:19 AM
People make too much out of this closer thing.

Yeah, except that no team in the history of the modern bullpen has ever done jack **** with a boner closer by committee. It's been tried, it routinely doesn't work.

It makes no sense, but pitchers like having their routines, for whatever reason, bouncing guys all over the place interferes with that.

doublem23
08-08-2010, 05:21 AM
I think the players tune him out now.

And you're basing this on what? Surely not the fact that the Sox have played .730+ baseball for almost 1.5 months now, correct?

soltrain21
08-08-2010, 08:12 AM
Not unlike a certain Frank Thomas when he played with the Sox.

Thornton would have closed tonight's game, of course, if he hadn't been brought in to face the tough lefties at the top of the order. Had the Orioles tied tonight's game in the ninth and the Sox sored in the 10th, Jenks would have closed.

People make too much out of this closer thing.

Hmm, no. No they don't.

FarWestChicago
08-08-2010, 09:34 AM
It won't be specifically this year, but the fact he will have made the playoffs in 3 out of 6. Has any Sox manager ever done that before?Voo, you are are such an insufferable dumbass. How long have you been around here? It's obvious if Tragg, Grebek, domeshot or Frater were managing the Sox they would go 162 - 0 every season and sweep in the automatic playoffs. Just listen to the wisdom from above and bask in the glory of even being associated with them. :yup:

Craig Grebeck
08-08-2010, 09:39 AM
Voo, you are are such an insufferable dumbass. How long have you been around here? It's obvious if Tragg, Grebek, domeshot or Frater were managing the Sox they would go 162 - 0 every season and sweep in the automatic playoffs. Just listen to the wisdom from above and bask in the glory of even being associated with them. :yup:
What do posts like these even accomplish? Are they funny? Certainly not. This is Jay Leno quality joke-telling.

FarWestChicago
08-08-2010, 09:52 AM
What do posts like these even accomplish? Are they funny? Certainly not. This is Jay Leno quality joke-telling.What do your posts accomplish? I am merely pointing out the obvious.

sullythered
08-08-2010, 11:10 AM
Wait, so if the Sox win the division you want to give Ozzie a lifetime pass? Just want to make sure I have this right.

2005 he did a good job staying out of the way, but 2005 was as much to do with career years out of, well, everyone then some managerial mastermind.

2006 was tough, He cost us a few wins by constantly ignoring centerfield D, but much more to blame were Buehrle and Contreras ****ting the bed.

2007 was a disaster

2008 was a product of a bad division, and tough to grasp in some areas. He got the team prepared well for the final few games, but they also layed an egg before that and checked out after the blackout game as they were pretty much sleepwalking through that ALDS.

2009 was another disaster, this one really on Ozzie. It was a speedy grindy team that didn't strike out much, and it got us no where.

2010 is TBD, but again our division is very down. If we get bounced in round 1 again, especially without putting up much of a fight, I honestly would hardly be impressed by Ozzie.

Personally I think 2008 was his best year managing. 2005 he did fine, but it was probably more an example of how the Manager can take too much blame or get too much credit.......

The only problem I have with Ozzie is he thinks NL ball can win the AL and he gets involved in front office moves. Add that to the fact he thinks he is bigger than the team and his out bursts and I have just soured on him. I think he used to be a very good motivator, and I think the players tune him out now.

I have no problem not firing Ozzie after the year if we win the division (although I probably would fire him if we miss the playoffs). But unless we are talking about a Bobby Cox calibur manager, no one gets a lifetime pass.

Soooooo, basically you're saying everything bad that happened over the last six seasons is on the manager, yet he had essentially nothing to do with the good and great stuff. Ok, that makes a **** load of sense.

Oh, and in both 2005 and 2008 the team vastly outperformed what was nationally expected of them. That, in almost everyone's eyes, goes directly to good coaching. Really, that's kinda the definition of good coaching.

Craig Grebeck
08-08-2010, 11:17 AM
What do your posts accomplish? I am merely pointing out the obvious.
My posts present a point of view: namely, Bobby Jenks does not deserve late-inning work given his recent performance.

OH MY GOD HE THINKS HE'S THE SMARTEST GUY

goon
08-08-2010, 11:38 AM
OH MY GOD HE THINKS HE'S THE SMARTEST GUY

Maybe, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

#1swisher
08-08-2010, 12:01 PM
Both Gonzales (https://twitter.com/MDGonzales/status/20595803117)/Cowley tweet that Jenks has lower back stiffness and will be eased back into closer roll.

Craig Grebeck
08-08-2010, 12:24 PM
Maybe, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
Bobby Jenks, in my view, does not deserve late-inning work at the moment. Better?

goon
08-08-2010, 02:25 PM
Bobby Jenks, in my view, does not deserve late-inning work at the moment. Better?

As opposed to non-tender his ass? Good riddance?

I revere winning above all else, but I appreciate how well Jenks has performed as a member of this team for the last few years. I'm certainly not ungrateful of his contributions to the White Sox.

Domeshot17
08-08-2010, 04:25 PM
And you're basing this on what? Surely not the fact that the Sox have played .730+ baseball for almost 1.5 months now, correct?

I have felt this way for a while, not just recently. A lot of guys when Ozzie does his usual freak out to the media over poor play brush it off as Ozzie being Ozzie.


Soooooo, basically you're saying everything bad that happened over the last six seasons is on the manager, yet he had essentially nothing to do with the good and great stuff. Ok, that makes a **** load of sense.

Oh, and in both 2005 and 2008 the team vastly outperformed what was nationally expected of them. That, in almost everyone's eyes, goes directly to good coaching. Really, that's kinda the definition of good coaching.

That was not what I was saying, I was saying in 2005, Ozzie was not responsible for guys like Politte-Hermanson-Garland etc having career years. The same way in 2006 Ozzie was not responsible for Buehrle and Contreras burning out.

2005 was won on career years and almost everything possible going right. 2006 was an example of bad luck.

2008 I did give Ozzie Credit, but again, it wasn't like we did much. We won a very weak central, played our asses off for a small stretch to win in, and then we laid down in round 1.

2009 Ozzie pined for 'ozzie ball' and he got it, but maybe not the right players. Ozzie got into it with players. No manager could have won with that team.

2010 again is TBD. However, this year Ozzie directly got involved in front office decisions and this offense hasn't been great. It might work, but to me the point is not to get to round 1. So if this roster makes the playoffs and then gets outclassed in round 1, again, I just won't be impressed. I wasn't screaming to fire the guy, I was more saying he probably gets far too much credit for the good years and far too much blame for the bad ones.