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View Full Version : Viciedo, Kotsay, and the Trade Deadline


thedudeabides
08-05-2010, 08:25 AM
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)

Craig Grebeck
08-05-2010, 08:29 AM
I've really got no problem with using kid gloves with Dayan, I just don't see how he would suffer from the occasional start at DH against a right-handed pitcher. If he lights up the world a few games at third base, and Kotsay continues to be Mark Kotsay, why not give him a chance?

Anyway, good insight tda. Fun to read.

Rocky Soprano
08-05-2010, 08:31 AM
He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.


Thanks for posting that, I enjoyed reading it.
How can baseball people already be crowning Ozzie if there is still plenty of baseball to be played? If the Sox win the division then I can see why he would be a top choice but I think its a bit early to have that discussion.

Balfanman
08-05-2010, 08:33 AM
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)

Well; this would explain alot. I don't like Kotsay at D.H. either, but I also knew that Ozzie wasn't that stupid.

spawn
08-05-2010, 08:35 AM
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)

Good read. Thanks for posting.

october23sp
08-05-2010, 08:36 AM
I'll have to agree with Hudson and his fear of pitching to contact. We don't need a pitcher to "settle in" to the Bigs in a pennant race. Jackson has been a MLB pitcher for a couple years now. Experience alone from Jackson will help us out.

If Jackson has a bad outing where he gives up 6 runs in 3 innings, I will have confidence in him to come back in his next outing and be fine. As opposed to a young pitcher who could get easily rattled by a bad start and it would turn into 2-3 bad starts.

thedudeabides
08-05-2010, 08:40 AM
Thanks for posting that, I enjoyed reading it.
How can baseball people already be crowning Ozzie if there is still plenty of baseball to be played? If the Sox win the division then I can see why he would be a top choice but I think its a bit early to have that discussion.

Sorry, I should have qualified that with, if they win the division. It,s a little early to make that assumption. :D:

palehosepub
08-05-2010, 08:40 AM
Some really good insight and it makes a lot of sense, especially about the Jackson / Hudson trade

Red Barchetta
08-05-2010, 08:47 AM
Thanks. Nice read.

If the SOX continue at this pace, even with the traditional DH production numbers down, the theory of a strong bench vs. one full time DH might prove to be correct.

We know Ozzie does not like the one-dimensional traditional DH role and would rather utilize the spot in the order to move in/out bench players while offering defensive starters a 1/2 day off. Who knows, if the SOX prove this model to be successful, we might see more AL teams adopt the approach.

I really think the acquistion of Vizquel has helped us in many more ways than just the on-field production/stats. It's like having a playing coach on the field.

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 08:52 AM
Thanks. Nice read.

If the SOX continue at this pace, even with the traditional DH production numbers down, the theory of a strong bench vs. one full time DH might prove to be correct.

We know Ozzie does not like the one-dimensional traditional DH role and would rather utilize the spot in the order to move in/out bench players while offering defensive starters a 1/2 day off. Who knows, if the SOX prove this model to be successful, we might see more AL teams adopt the approach.

I really think the acquistion of Vizquel has helped us in many more ways than just the on-field production/stats. It's like having a playing coach on the field.

The idea is fine, the execution is still wrong. I don't care how you slice it, anytime you force yourself to use a player who has given you virtually nothing offensively for the better part of a season, it isn't good.

Would the system work with a better hitter? Sure, the idea is fine. However, this team is not winning because we have Mark Kotsay in the lineup. Maybe it is winning because he is in the clubhouse, but the lineup, no. If you replaced Kotsay's bat with a better hitter it probably equals a few more wins.

If anything, we are winning despite the blackhole in the middle of the lineup, not because of it.

BringHomeDaBacon
08-05-2010, 09:02 AM
Nice post and very well written - kudos.

If true, I have no problem toning down my level of hate of Kotsay. Domeshot is right, however, he should be on the bench in lieu of a bigger bat. And I would say that Viciedo and even Teahen (yikes) are bigger bats.

hawkjt
08-05-2010, 09:04 AM
I like Kenny's rationale on all of this.
Pitching,more than ever, is king. Sox saw what a shaky cog in the rotation could do on Tuesday when Torres gave up 5 in the first two innnings.
Too big a gamble with a rookie like Hudson...the percentage move was to get a veteran.

As for Dayan, also makes a lot of sense. I know a number of fans on here,who really follow the minors,were not optimistic about Dayan last year. These guys are not robots,and coming from Cuba, it makes special handling more important,probably. The Sox are almost uniquely suited for nurturing a young player from Cuba like this with Ozzie,Alexei, Omar.ect..
Alexei was helped by Jose Contreras....and so it goes.

I also think that Kotsay must have intangibles that we do not see. If he was Swisher, he would be gone by now. If the Sox can just hang in there til Teahen comes back,when Kotsay can go back to his pinch hitting/1st base role...the clubhouse can be very stable.

asindc
08-05-2010, 09:18 AM
I like Kenny's rationale on all of this.
Pitching,more than ever, is king. Sox saw what a shaky cog in the rotation could do on Tuesday when Torres gave up 5 in the first two innnings.
Too big a gamble with a rookie like Hudson...the percentage move was to get a veteran.

As for Dayan, also makes a lot of sense. I know a number of fans on here,who really follow the minors,were not optimistic about Dayan last year. These guys are not robots,and coming from Cuba, it makes special handling more important,probably. The Sox are almost uniquely suited for nurturing a young player from Cuba like this with Ozzie,Alexei, Omar.ect..
Alexei was helped by Jose Contreras....and so it goes.

I also think that Kotsay must have intangibles that we do not see. If he was Swisher, he would be gone by now. If the Sox can just hang in there til Teahen comes back,when Kotsay can go back to his pinch hitting/1st base role...the clubhouse can be very stable.

First bolded point: I think that puts Ozzie's recent comments in better perspective.

Second bolded point: Although I admit I was wrong in saying the Kotsay would not receive so many ABs at DH this year, and I do think others should be DHing ahead of him, I also have thought there had to be some kind of rationale behind Kotsay DHing so much. I don't agree with it, but the bottom line is that if the players are good with it, I won't get bent out of shape about it. Contrast that with Swisher, who clearly not only quickly wore out his welcome with Ozzie, but with his teammates as well.

DumpJerry
08-05-2010, 09:30 AM
Good read. Thanks.

Last year we kept hearing how Kotsay was an excellent clubhouse presence and this is why Ozzie insisted on having him again this year.

As I read the various threads where people are taking up a call to arms over how they see Kotsay, Viciedo and other players are being used, I have to keep reminding myself that the Sox are in first place, not fifth. It is true that as Sox fans, we keep the rose-colored glasses in storage no matter what, so there will always be criticism. My point is that while Ozzie, Kenny, etc. may not do what all of us would like to see done, it seems to be working. Baseball is not an exact science, there are too intangibles to list which makes it work. The management people inside the team know more about how those intangibles interact than any of us ever will. I'm not saying people need to shut up whenever they see Kotsay in the lineup as the DH, etc., but something is working for us.....

If the Sox make the playoffs, it will be the result of the incredible PSC (Post Stanley Cup) run the team went on. This should get Ozzie Manager of the Year. Runs like this one are very rare. In my 48 years, there have been less than 10 among all MLB teams (the fact that two of them are Sox teams, 1983, makes me proud of our team's history).

FielderJones
08-05-2010, 09:33 AM
Thanks for passing along your friend's insight, it was very well-reasoned and interesting to read. We have many experts who don't work for MLB posting here; it's nice to get the perspective of someone who's actually in the business. His observations make a lot of sense.

spawn
08-05-2010, 09:35 AM
Good read. Thanks.

Last year we kept hearing how Kotsay was an excellent clubhouse presence and this is why Ozzie insisted on having him again this year.

As I read the various threads where people are taking up a call to arms over how they see Kotsay, Viciedo and other players are being used, I have to keep reminding myself that the Sox are in first place, not fifth. It is true that as Sox fans, we keep the rose-colored glasses in storage no matter what, so there will always be criticism. My point is that while Ozzie, Kenny, etc. may not do what all of us would like to see done, it seems to be working. Baseball is not an exact science, there are too intangibles to list which makes it work. The management people inside the team know more about how those intangibles interact than any of us ever will. I'm not saying people need to shut up whenever they see Kotsay in the lineup as the DH, etc., but something is working for us.....

If the Sox make the playoffs, it will be the result of the incredible PSC (Post Stanley Cup) run the team went on. This should get Ozzie Manager of the Year. Runs like this one are very rare. In my 48 years, there have been less than 10 among all MLB teams (the fact that two of them are Sox teams, 1983, makes me proud of our team's history).

Good post. :thumbsup:

Tragg
08-05-2010, 09:39 AM
The idea is fine, the execution is still wrong.

I think that applies to a lot of issues-Kotsay, and getting Jackson to name 2. it doesn't explain playing kotsay game after game after game, nor paying top price for a pitcher with an inflated salary having a bad year on a non-contending team.

kevingrt
08-05-2010, 09:39 AM
Great read thanks for posting that.

One question did the scout know why Lillibridge has a 1.174 OPS this year?

doublem23
08-05-2010, 09:47 AM
Thanks for passing along your friend's insight, it was very well-reasoned and interesting to read. We have many experts who don't work for MLB posting here; it's nice to get the perspective of someone who's actually in the business. His observations make a lot of sense.

Nice to see when you can't agree with someone, you go out of your way to be petty and condescending.

Great job.

:thumbsup:

FielderJones
08-05-2010, 09:55 AM
Nice to see when you can't agree with someone, you go out of your way to be petty and condescending.

Great job.

:thumbsup:

I don't think you were mentioned by name personally, but I can't help who goes out of their way to take offense at my opinions.

Noir
08-05-2010, 09:58 AM
First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.

That is the most interesting quote of all. Maybe the plan all along was to get Jackson BEFORE the non-waiver deadline and then use the waiver wire to get a bat, as you could use low level prospects and PTBNL's to get a good bat on the cheap.

Dibbs
08-05-2010, 10:01 AM
OK, let's make Kotsay a coach then. He surely is not not helping the team.

g0g0
08-05-2010, 10:05 AM
Nice insight! I love hearing these sorts of things as there is always so much speculation. I wonder why the teams/managers can't put a little more info like this out there. It wouldn't hurt to say some (not all) of these things.

TomBradley72
08-05-2010, 10:22 AM
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)

Thanks for posting this.

The insight into Kotsay is very interesting....it says alot about the team chemistry....and how much OG and KW value that component to the White Sox success. It's still frustrating to me that it looks like Lillibridge will go down, and we'll have 2 nearly identical players in Kotsay and Teahen...but the White Sox are 39-18 since June 1st...so I'll have some faith in their judgement.

voodoochile
08-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Good read. Thanks.

Last year we kept hearing how Kotsay was an excellent clubhouse presence and this is why Ozzie insisted on having him again this year.

As I read the various threads where people are taking up a call to arms over how they see Kotsay, Viciedo and other players are being used, I have to keep reminding myself that the Sox are in first place, not fifth. It is true that as Sox fans, we keep the rose-colored glasses in storage no matter what, so there will always be criticism. My point is that while Ozzie, Kenny, etc. may not do what all of us would like to see done, it seems to be working. Baseball is not an exact science, there are too intangibles to list which makes it work. The management people inside the team know more about how those intangibles interact than any of us ever will. I'm not saying people need to shut up whenever they see Kotsay in the lineup as the DH, etc., but something is working for us.....

If the Sox make the playoffs, it will be the result of the incredible PSC (Post Stanley Cup) run the team went on. This should get Ozzie Manager of the Year. Runs like this one are very rare. In my 48 years, there have been less than 10 among all MLB teams (the fact that two of them are Sox teams, 1983, makes me proud of our team's history).

Nice post and thanks to TBA for posting the information. It fits with some of the stories we are starting to read and all of it not only makes sense but as DJ pointed out proves how much of this game is mental and how much of it cannot be quantified on paper. All of us are more informed if we choose to be about stats, splits, etc. but the missing element on our computer screens is the human element and baseball is still a game that is played by humans.

To paraphrase Bull Durham:

If the Sox believe they are winning because they are all wearing garters or because they all drink green tea before the game or because Mark Kotsy is the DH against RHP (and wears super special garters and drinks the strongest green tea of anyone on the team) then don't mess with it.

I do think we'll see less of Kotsay anyway once Teahen comes back. Either Mark will go on the DL and become the defacto coach people want or they'll send down Lillibridge and reduce Mark's PT to subbing for Paulie at 1st once a week, IMO.

cws05champ
08-05-2010, 10:36 AM
Thanks for posting this.

The insight into Kotsay is very interesting....it says alot about the team chemistry....and how much OG and KW value that component to the White Sox success. It's still frustrating to me that it looks like Lillibridge will go down, and we'll have 2 nearly identical players in Kotsay and Teahen...but the White Sox are 39-18 since June 1st...so I'll have some faith in their judgement.

I've always said Kotsay has a place on this team as a veteran presence. But he can have the same effect on team chemistry and clubhouse guys playing 2-3 X per week and pinch hitting. Not starting 5 days a week hitting .214. They have given him plenty of time to come out of it, and I know he has been unlucky, I can see that with my eyes. That's unfortunate, but it is August and time for them to modify their thinking.

I understand they don't want to over expose Viciedo this year and Lillibridge will come down to Earth the more he plays. But those two are giving good AB's 8 out of 10 times and hitting the ball hard almost every time they make contact.

DumpJerry
08-05-2010, 10:44 AM
I remember one year Pablo Ozuna carried a .400+ BA into May because of limited playing time. People got very excited about the prospect of Ozuna tearing it up. Then his BA started to plummet as he got increased playing time.

asindc
08-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Thanks for posting this.

The insight into Kotsay is very interesting....it says alot about the team chemistry....and how much OG and KW value that component to the White Sox success. It's still frustrating to me that it looks like Lillibridge will go down, and we'll have 2 nearly identical players in Kotsay and Teahen...but the White Sox are 39-18 since June 1st...so I'll have some faith in their judgement.

... and how much the players value it as well.

GoGoCrede
08-05-2010, 10:58 AM
Really great post. Someone who went to ST this year told me how inseparable Dayan and Alexei were. I'm really glad to see they've bonded, especially since losing Contreras was such a blow for Alexei.

I'd love to see Ozzie get AL Manager of the Year. I hope it happens.

As for Kotsay, wow. I didn't know he had that much of an influence on the Clubhouse. Sounds like a great guy.

asindc
08-05-2010, 10:58 AM
Nice insight! I love hearing these sorts of things as there is always so much speculation. I wonder why the teams/managers can't put a little more info like this out there. It wouldn't hurt to say some (not all) of these things.

Probably not worth the likely headaches generated from follow-up questions. I'm not directing this at you, but this does bring to mind one of my pet peeves about fans in general: I just don't get why fans think they should know everything that goes on with their favorite team(s). Many things are left unsaid publicly because it's just better that way. I had a friend who worked in the Sox FO for several years. She has told me only a fraction of the stories about players and management that she knows. Believe me, most fans are better off not knowing, and the team is almost certainly better off for not revealing more than it does.

TomBradley72
08-05-2010, 11:00 AM
... and how much the players value it as well.

Exactly....as much as all of us who post on WSI are frustrated by Kotsay...if OG/KW walk in the clubhouse and tell the team Kotsay's gone...it sounds like the team would feel betrayed and that he was a big part of the resurgence from a leadership perspective. That's why real teams are different than fantasy baseball teams.

g0g0
08-05-2010, 11:09 AM
Probably not worth the likely headaches generated from follow-up questions. I'm not directing this at you, but this does bring to mind one of my pet peeves about fans in general: I just don't get why fans think they should know everything that goes on with their favorite team(s). Many things are left unsaid publicly because it's just better that way. I had a friend who worked in the Sox FO for several years. She has told me only a fraction of the stories about players and management that she knows. Believe me, most fans are better off not knowing, and the team is almost certainly better off for not revealing more than it does.

I hear ya. From the fans standpoint, I think that's just fans being fans. If people weren't so supportive and interested in their club's well-being, then there wouldn't be sites like WSI out there.

As far as the information I was suggesting, I wouldn't want to know the drama-type stuff or trade rumors. Just some more of why the club is playing such and such player here or how they want to develop this pitcher. But I guess then you might be showing your hand for trades if you publicly state your love for Jackson or that you think Viciedo was lost in the culture and thus is being babied.

russ99
08-05-2010, 11:25 AM
Nice insight! I love hearing these sorts of things as there is always so much speculation. I wonder why the teams/managers can't put a little more info like this out there. It wouldn't hurt to say some (not all) of these things.

Misinformation is especially helpful when dealing with other clubs, so I don't expect them to become fortright about what they're thinking all the time.

Not singling anyone out here, or replying to g0g0 on this, but I gotta love how everyone's all cool with this when there's an off-the-cuff remark about how this was Kenny's and the organization's plan...

...after weeks and weeks of posts spouting off about how Ozzie's an idiot for every lineup and how Viciedo's being handled... :rolleyes:

lukeman89
08-05-2010, 11:38 AM
interesting note about viciedo being called up...

since viciedo's first day in the lineup on june 20, alexei is hitting .365/.385/.511 and has seen his average climb from .254 to .293

MetroPD
08-05-2010, 11:46 AM
We need to trade Konerko while he's still worth something. He will never be anything beyond a below average first basemen.


Haven't seen too many of those posts around for awhile......

DirtySox
08-05-2010, 11:48 AM
Misinformation is especially helpful when dealing with other clubs, so I don't expect them to become fortright about what they're thinking all the time.

Not singling anyone out here, or replying to g0g0 on this, but I gotta love how everyone's all cool with this when there's an off-the-cuff remark about how this was Kenny's and the organization's plan...

...after weeks and weeks of posts spouting off about how Ozzie's an idiot for every lineup and how Viciedo's being handled... :rolleyes:

I'm still not cool with it. I will be enraged if Kotsay keeps playing regularly when Teahen is back.

VMSNS
08-05-2010, 12:19 PM
Thanks for posting this.

The insight into Kotsay is very interesting....it says alot about the team chemistry....and how much OG and KW value that component to the White Sox success. It's still frustrating to me that it looks like Lillibridge will go down, and we'll have 2 nearly identical players in Kotsay and Teahen...but the White Sox are 39-18 since June 1st...so I'll have some faith in their judgement.

Actually, I believe Ozzie has gone on the record and said that he doesn't believe in team chemistry.

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm still not cool with it. I will be enraged if Kotsay keeps playing regularly when Teahen is back.

You know he will :angry:

Pablo_Honey
08-05-2010, 12:51 PM
I'm still not cool with it. I will be enraged if Kotsay keeps playing regularly when Teahen is back.
Worry not, it has been publicy stated that Teahen will return as a utility player so we will still get a nice healthy dosage of Mark "The Leader" Kotsay!

Anyways, interesting read, thanks for posting, thedudeabides. I'm usually skeptical of comments from company men because they usually feed you stuff that will make their company look great, so I think the whole Kotsay part and Jackson being the target all along are just another company lines. Having said that, I think the Dayan situation makes sense. The kid's bat is great so if he can add a little bit of fielding to go with it, we will have a solid regular on our hand. He's got a cannon arm so working on proper footsteps and improving instincts at third would make him at least an average third baseman. Still, I echo others' concerns about why he can't DH once in a while.

asindc
08-05-2010, 01:11 PM
Worry not, it has been publicy stated that Teahen will return as a utility player so we will still get a nice healthy dosage of Mark "The Leader" Kotsay!

Anyways, interesting read, thanks for posting, thedudeabides. I'm usually skeptical of comments from company men because they usually feed you stuff that will make their company look great, so I think the whole Kotsay part and Jackson being the target all along are just another company lines. Having said that, I think the Dayan situation makes sense. The kid's bat is great so if he can add a little bit of fielding to go with it, we will have a solid regular on our hand. He's got a cannon arm so working on proper footsteps and improving instincts at third would make him at least an average third baseman. Still, I echo others' concerns about why he can't DH once in a while.

You mean as opposed to believing a tweeted rumor in which the tweeter said/admitted/claimed that he was only repeating what someone who had nothing to do with the transaction said about it?

voodoochile
08-05-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm still not cool with it. I will be enraged if Kotsay keeps playing regularly when Teahen is back.

You know he will :angry:

:rolling:

Rage on dudes... rage on...

Pablo_Honey
08-05-2010, 01:32 PM
You mean as opposed to believing a tweeted rumor in which the tweeter said/admitted/claimed that he was only repeating what someone who had nothing to do with the transaction said about it?
I'd rather hear information from a neutral party. For example, if I were wondering whether to get a Mac or a PC, and I asked someone who's a Mac fanboy, of course I'm gonna get answers that are Mac friendly. That is not to say I think all members involved with the Sox are liars and company men feeding you senseless crap like Rongey. I just think it's all too convenient that everything is going exactly the way the Sox wanted it to. I don't believe rumours 100% either, but at least those are from guys that work outside of organizations.

asindc
08-05-2010, 01:37 PM
I'd rather hear information from a neutral party. For example, if I were wondering whether to get a Mac or a PC, and I asked someone who's a Mac fanboy, of course I'm gonna get answers that are Mac friendly. That is not to say I think all members involved with the Sox are liars and company men feeding you senseless crap like Rongey. I just think it's all too convenient that everything is going exactly the way the Sox wanted it to. I don't believe rumours 100% either, but at least those are from guys that work outside of organizations.

My point is why should we believe someone who had nothing to do with the transaction, if that person even actually exists? What is the basis of his knowledge if he had nothing to do with the transaction?

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 01:39 PM
:rolling:

Rage on dudes... rage on...

It would be one thing if Kotsay was contributing, and I am not saying cut him, I am all for him being a team leader, but we are going to need the best lineup possible to beat the Yanks-Rays etc. in October. Our pitching won't match up great without Peavy, and our offense will be the weakest in the playoffs. Anything we can do to get more out of it, especially in the middle, is huge.

doublem23
08-05-2010, 01:40 PM
:rolling:

Rage on dudes... rage on...

It's gonna be ****in hilarious if the Sox lose this division by 1-2 games.

Since when did a 1.5 game lead the 1st week of August become grounds to NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER try and improve one's team?

voodoochile
08-05-2010, 01:41 PM
It's gonna be ****in hilarious if the Sox lose this division by 1-2 games.

Since when did a 1.5 game lead the 1st week of August become grounds to NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER try and improve one's team?

Who said that? I just find the amount of anger being directed to be funny.

Pablo_Honey
08-05-2010, 01:45 PM
My point is why should we believe someone who had nothing to do with the transaction, if that person even actually exists? What is the basis of his knowledge if he had nothing to do with the transaction?
We don't, if this person was the only one saying this stuff. The problem is there were numerous tweets about the supposed Dunn deal falling through. It wasn't just one person saying it, there were quite a few IIRC saying the similar stuffs. No one knows what truly happened besides the ones directly involved like Kenny and Rizzo. Scouts don't get involved in stuff like this either, besides Kenny asking for opinions on players. Their words are just as reliable as the rumoured tweets.

Bobby Thigpen
08-05-2010, 02:05 PM
It's gonna be ****in hilarious if the Sox lose this division by 1-2 games.

Since when did a 1.5 game lead the 1st week of August become grounds to NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER try and improve one's team?
Where did he say that?

And how does constantly bi**ing about Kotsay "improve" the team?


Mod edit: Language filter violation. Next time spell the word out.

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 02:07 PM
How does anything we do improve the team??

Seriously, you think because you type Mark Kotsay is good helps the team more than if you type Mark Kotsay is bad or even The Itsy Bitsy Spider Went up the water spout?

asindc
08-05-2010, 02:09 PM
We don't, if this person was the only one saying this stuff. The problem is there were numerous tweets about the supposed Dunn deal falling through. It wasn't just one person saying it, there were quite a few IIRC saying the similar stuffs. No one knows what truly happened besides the ones directly involved like Kenny and Rizzo. Scouts don't get involved in stuff like this either, besides Kenny asking for opinions on players. Their words are just as reliable as the rumoured tweets.

All most likely just repeating what the first tweet said. That's how a rumor mill works. Scouts who have talked to Sox scouts are at least more reliable in the sense that they have talked to someone who plausibly might have been involved in this transaction. We have no idea how Mr. Unnamed-I-Had-Nothing-to-Do-With-It might have gotten his information.

voodoochile
08-05-2010, 02:10 PM
How does anything we do improve the team??

Seriously, you think because you type Mark Kotsay is good helps the team more than if you type Mark Kotsay is bad or even The Itsy Bitsy Spider Went up the water spout?

So if none of it matters, why bother to be so angry? Sit back, enjoy the ride. The Sox are still in first and having a good year.

asindc
08-05-2010, 02:11 PM
So if none of it matters, why bother to be so angry? Sit back, enjoy the ride. The Sox are still in first and having a good year.

You beat me to it.

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 02:14 PM
So if none of it matters, why bother to be so angry? Sit back, enjoy the ride. The Sox are still in first and having a good year.

I am not saying both sides can't express their opinions. I, for the most part, really enjoy White Sox baseball. I just don't understand the need to give 3-4 outs a game away.

However, where Doub was saying if we lose the division because we did not improve our offense, BT response atleast APPEARED to be blaming the complaints on Kotsay as to why we might lose the division.

voodoochile
08-05-2010, 02:18 PM
I am not saying both sides can't express their opinions. I, for the most part, really enjoy White Sox baseball. I just don't understand the need to give 3-4 outs a game away.

However, where Doub was saying if we lose the division because we did not improve our offense, BT response atleast APPEARED to be blaming the complaints on Kotsay as to why we might lose the division.

Well again, that's almost two months away. Preparing to be angry is fruitless.

I just don't get the mentality, "If I don't get my way, I'm going to be very very angry, enraged even."

Well okay, thanks for sharing...

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 02:24 PM
Well again, that's almost two months away. Preparing to be angry is fruitless.

I just don't get the mentality, "If I don't get my way, I'm going to be very very angry, enraged even."

Well okay, thanks for sharing...

Yes, that is what I am doing, throwing a big temper tantrum because we have a bad DH.

In fact, despite dropping some decent coin an hour ago on Tickets to big hurt day for my Father in laws bday, I just thought of Mark Kotsay, ripped them into a hundred pieces threw them above my head at work...

Also, if the Sox do not sign Jose Guillen by midnight, I will be burning a very large and valuable collection of white sox autographs and memorabilia. Stop by Minooka if you would like the partake.

JermaineDye05
08-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Can we end this for now?

Kotsay homers today. HUGE

Pablo_Honey
08-05-2010, 02:30 PM
All most likely just repeating what the first tweet said. That's how a rumor mill works. Scouts who have talked to Sox scouts are at least more reliable in the sense that they have talked to someone who plausibly might have been involved in this transaction. We have no idea how Mr. Unnamed-I-Had-Nothing-to-Do-With-It might have gotten his information.
You have a point and I admit that I put too much stock into rumours. Still, I can't accept what scouts are saying as the complete whole truth because they work for the Sox so they will spin everything in a way that makes the Sox look good. That's just how employees work - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Keep in mind that I am not trying to put down the scouts. They do an important job for my favourite team and they definitely know more than I do about prospects so I respect them. All I am saying is that I can't help but be skeptical that everything has worked out so perfectly for the Sox.

JermaineDye05
08-05-2010, 02:30 PM
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)

I think he pretty much has to be considering where this team was. Especially if we win the division.

It's gonna be either him or Ron Washington.

voodoochile
08-05-2010, 02:34 PM
Yes, that is what I am doing, throwing a big temper tantrum because we have a bad DH.

In fact, despite dropping some decent coin an hour ago on Tickets to big hurt day for my Father in laws bday, I just thought of Mark Kotsay, ripped them into a hundred pieces threw them above my head at work...

Also, if the Sox do not sign Jose Guillen by midnight, I will be burning a very large and valuable collection of white sox autographs and memorabilia. Stop by Minooka if you would like the partake.

LOL... fair enough and thanks for taking it lightheartedly. Just to be clear, I'm not jumping up and down over Kotsay either, just found the comment silly. This place has been a hotbed of anger since February to a large extent and nothing seems to tone it down even with the Sox in first and heading for a season high 16 games over .500 (after a massive Kotsay 2-run bomb just a few minutes ago).

I guess I'm either out of touch or don't get what it takes to be a fan...

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 02:40 PM
LOL... fair enough and thanks for taking it lightheartedly. Just to be clear, I'm not jumping up and down over Kotsay either, just found the comment silly. This place has been a hotbed of anger since February to a large extent and nothing seems to tone it down even with the Sox in first and heading for a season high 16 games over .500 (after a massive Kotsay 2-run bomb just a few minutes ago).

I guess I'm either out of touch or don't get what it takes to be a fan...

It is all in good fun. It is tough too because I know how important chemistry on a team is, so I am positive Kotsay is invaulable there.

The best part was we have the game on in the lunch room at work and I told my buddy next to me "I was just complaining about Kotsay, so he is going to homer here".

Maybe I should complain more :tongue:

It's Dankerific
08-05-2010, 02:42 PM
I think the point is how much further in 1st place we'd be with anyone but Kotsay playing.

Since its early August, and we all have memories of the Twins chasing us down like dogs, its not outrageous to be concerned and wanting the Sox to put even more distance between 1st and 2nd place.

I've trained myself NOT to simply be results oriented and insanely optimistic, I play poker.

ghostface36
08-05-2010, 09:03 PM
wow and he won (kotsay) us the game twice tonigjt
maybe us talkin all this **** will be jinxing him positively