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Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2010, 09:34 PM
Ummm, go Rays?

Craig Grebeck
08-03-2010, 09:34 PM
no moar kotsay

Coops4Aces
08-03-2010, 09:34 PM
no moar kotsay
LMAO it only took 2 posts

GoGoCrede
08-03-2010, 09:35 PM
Meh, we split the doubleheader and the Twins are losing. Next!

doublem23
08-03-2010, 09:35 PM
Sweep would have been nice, split's OK.

GO DEVIL RAYS

BadBobbyJenks
08-03-2010, 09:35 PM
Terrible managing
Terrible pitching
Terrible hitting
Terrible defense

How did we only lose 7-1?

GoGoCrede
08-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Terrible managing
Terrible pitching
Terrible hitting
Terrible defense

How did we only lose 6-1?

Because we lost 7-1.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Remember when Joe Crede used to lead the league in popouts? At least he could play a slick third base.

Well, now we have the league leader in groundouts to the second baseman. And he's our DH (and occasional 1B).

21stcenturySox
08-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Well Torres was bad, but he didn't blow out our bullpen while burning up 6 innings. We didn't score enough runs to win. Tomorrow Edwin Jackson against his old team.

Coops4Aces
08-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Because we lost 7-1.

:rolling:

Let's just pretend like that didn't happen.

BadBobbyJenks
08-03-2010, 09:37 PM
Because we lost 7-1.

You are too quick :(:

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2010, 09:38 PM
Any chance at a come back was killed when Tony Pena threw that ball away. But really you had two automatic outs in that lineup with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. I'm sick of Kotsay, maybe he provides leadership but the only thing I see that he provides is leading the league in weakly hit ground balls to second.

I shouldn't be as upset about this game as I am, but I'm pissed. Tomorrow is no sure thing. God damn. A win tonight and we would have picked up what, two games on Minnesota?

Frankfan4life
08-03-2010, 09:39 PM
I'll take the splitty. We hold onto first place no matter what the Twins do today.

JB98
08-03-2010, 09:39 PM
Any chance at a come back was killed when Tony Pena threw that ball away. But really you had two automatic outs in that lineup with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. I'm sick of Kotsay, maybe he provides leadership but the only thing I see that he provides is leading the league in weakly hit ground balls to second.

I shouldn't be as upset about this game as I am, but I'm pissed. Tomorrow is no sure thing. God damn. A win tonight and we would have picked up what, two games on Minnesota?

No reason to be upset. Carlos Torres stinks, and that's why the Sox lost. We move on to tomorrow....

BadBobbyJenks
08-03-2010, 09:41 PM
no moar kotsay

I don't know what is more mind boggling, the people defending him here or Ozzie continuing to trot him out there.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2010, 09:42 PM
No reason to be upset. Carlos Torres stinks, and that's why the Sox lost. We move on to tomorrow....

Carlos Torres is also now the best option we have down at the farm and will be the fifth starter if another one of out guys goes down.

JB98
08-03-2010, 09:44 PM
Carlos Torres is also now the best option we have down at the farm and will be the fifth starter if another one of out guys goes down.

If somebody goes down, I'll worry about that. It's not a concern today.

SoxSpeed22
08-03-2010, 09:44 PM
Didn't expect much from Torres. Let's just take the next 2.

Dick Allen
08-03-2010, 09:47 PM
I guess Ozzie's going to need to get conked over the head repeatedly, Three Stooges style, until he stops trotting Kotsay out there.

asindc
08-03-2010, 09:48 PM
Carlos Torres is also now the best option we have down at the farm and will be the fifth starter if another one of out guys goes down.

That was also the case this time last week. It has been the case ever since Peavy went out for the year.

Nelfox02
08-03-2010, 09:49 PM
with the way game 1 looked, I liked out chances for the relatively rare sweep of a road day/nighter----we got to their pen, we preserved ours, and we won the game where we were facing the better starter.......

I thought that after a rough 1st where Torres wiggled off the hook, you might have seen him get axed after it was clear in the second he was struggling early in the inning.......but no. to his credit he was able to hang on and give the team some more innings, but to just spot a team, even a reeling one, 5 runs like that at home is typically a recipe for disaster.....

that being said, Torres and the relief corps were not going to throw shut out baseball tonight, so offense, what the hell? we only scratch out one run against bonderman?

this one really stings if the Twins get a W tonight, but Tampa has a nice lead late so hopefully they hang on and we keep 1.5 advantage........the flip side of that is that we lost a chance to gain even more ground

Coops4Aces
08-03-2010, 09:49 PM
Lillibridge and Viciedo had a combined 2 at-bats today. Kotsay had 8. Lillibridge and Viciedo combined for more hits :lol:

Nelfox02
08-03-2010, 09:50 PM
Carlos Torres is also now the best option we have down at the farm and will be the fifth starter if another one of out guys goes down.


shudder.......

johnnyg83
08-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Lillibridge and Viciedo had a combined 2 at-bats today. Kotsay had 8. Lillibridge and Viciedo combined for more hits :lol:

I was told there'd be no math.

OmahaSoxFan
08-03-2010, 09:54 PM
No reason to be upset. Carlos Torres stinks, and that's why the Sox lost. We move on to tomorrow....

Sad to say I was figuring this would most likely be a loss going into this game. With the win when Harrell was starting on Friday night against the A's, I didn't think the odds were there that we would see another good performance from a Triple-A arm... those odds played against the Sox tonight.

Tomorrow the era of Edwin Jackson in a Sox uniform begins, I for one am interested in what this guy can do for the Sox. We shall see...

And the Twins are still losing 6-3 in the bottom of the 8th... the Sox should gladly take the 1.5 game lead they will have (if Minnesota does lose) after a twin bill at Detroit.

guillensdisciple
08-03-2010, 09:54 PM
Win tomorrow and I am a happy guy.

Hitmen77
08-03-2010, 10:00 PM
Any chance at a come back was killed when Tony Pena threw that ball away. But really you had two automatic outs in that lineup with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. I'm sick of Kotsay, maybe he provides leadership but the only thing I see that he provides is leading the league in weakly hit ground balls to second.



Lillibridge and Viciedo had a combined 2 at-bats today. Kotsay had 8. Lillibridge and Viciedo combined for more hits :lol:

I just don't understand why Ozzie finds it impossible to work Lillibridge and Viciedo into the lineup more often. Those guys are swinging hot bats and they can't crack the lineup. Meanwhile, it's almost impossible to keep Kotsay out of the lineup.

Yeah, I understand that there are games where Kotsay/Jones are better defensive options for us. But what about all the games Kotsay plays at DH? The guy is doing nothing and yet can't be displaced from the lineup.

No, Kotsay and Jones didn't single-handedly lose the game for us tonight, but they didn't help either. Does Ozzie think this race is going down to the wire? If so, then why are we farting around with one or two .200 hitters in our lineup every night (just because they are lefty or because they're our best defensive DH?:dunno:) when we have two hot bats riding the pine?

VMSNS
08-03-2010, 10:04 PM
I understand that Kotsay may be bringing some "leadership" to the clubhouse, and that he may be a decent guy to have off the bench....but, it's really time for him to go. He is just a black hole in our lineup, and it's absolutely obvious to anyone and everyone that he will never be an effective DH. I generally like Ozzie, but his handling of this DH situation with Kotsay has been downright embarrassing. It needs to end, and it needs to end now. Even more, what completley baffles me is that Viciedo and Lillibridge are tearing the cover off the ball right now, and they're not being played.

I'm grateful that Kenny went to great lengths to get us a DH this deadline, but it just wasn't in the cards. If I were Kenny, I'd have a long talk with Oz about how completely insane the prospect of Kotsay at DH is. I sure hope Kenny can get us a bat off waivers, because I don't think we'll last very long in the playoffs with Kotsay at DH.

I watched the first few innings of this game before falling asleep on the couch. Torres was horrible, but it was clear that he was very nervous to be back in the show. Couldn't locate his fastball, and his breaking stuff just kind of hung there waiting to get smashed.

This is a huge month for the Sox. We need to win series' against DET and MIN, and we need to mop up with hoodrats like KC and Baltimore. This is a make or break month for us. Here's hoping it all goes our way. :gulp:

JermaineDye05
08-03-2010, 10:08 PM
When was the last time the Sox actually swept a double header?

It seems like every time we score all of our runs in the first game and then can't do anything in the second.

BadBobbyJenks
08-03-2010, 10:09 PM
:twinslose

elrod
08-03-2010, 10:09 PM
Twins lost so we're back to where we were after winning the day game. Biggest disappointment is the lineup, not Torres. Rios, Kotsay and Jones were pretty useless in the second game.

sox1970
08-03-2010, 10:11 PM
When was the last time the Sox actually swept a double header?

It seems like every time we score all of our runs in the first game and then can't do anything in the second.

I answered this in the other postgame thread. It was 9/14/08 vs the Tigers in that weekend where it rained all weekend. Last year, they split 3, and got swept once.

Hitmen77
08-03-2010, 10:11 PM
Well Torres was bad, but he didn't blow out our bullpen while burning up 6 innings. We didn't score enough runs to win. Tomorrow Edwin Jackson against his old team.

No reason to be upset. Carlos Torres stinks, and that's why the Sox lost. We move on to tomorrow....

Yeah, at least we timed a bad outing from Torres well with a game where our offense didn't do anything anyway. None of our top relievers saw action today, so our pen should be well rested going into tomorrow.

Tomorrow is a huge game. Not because it that specific game is a "must win", but because we get to see Edwin Jackson pitch for us for the first time. If he can have a decent outing for us, then our outlook becomes brighter. If he gets lit up, then there will be much shaking of fists and gnashing of teeth among Sox fans.

Hopefully we won't see Ozzie sending out the "Kotsay & Jones" dynamic duo out there again tomorrow.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2010, 10:13 PM
Let me spell it out for the most stubborn Ozzpologists:

Brian Anderson minus good defense plus a bad back equals Mark Kotsay

TDog
08-03-2010, 10:19 PM
no moar kotsay

Yes. Giving up four runs in the second was Kotsay's idea.

The White Sox last three losses -- the last game of the previous roadtrip in Oakland, the middle game of the three game series at home against the A's and tonight's loss -- were all games where the White Sox pitching gave up four runs in the second inning. There was a Sox win in that mix in which the White Sox were trailing by four going into the bottom of the second, but there was no four-run second.

Indeed, there were no Kotsay hits, but offensively Rios hurt the team more than any other White Sox hitter. The problem with the White Sox tonight was not Kotsay but starting pitching that didn't keep the White Sox in the game early.

Some might look at this game and question why the White Sox didn't trade Jackson for a big hitter, holding onto the belief that it would be possible to have done so. The pitching spot vacated by Peavy's injury has produced one strong game out of three by Hudson, sandwiched between a game where he game up five runs in four innings to the Royals and five runs in four innings to the A's, a strong outing by Harrell and today's game where Torres had given up five after two. To the White Sox' credit, they have won three of those five games, but the need to upgrade over the three minor-league callups the Sox have put in that role should be obvious.

The problem today, as it has been in many of the White Sox losses this year, was the pitching.

Craig Grebeck
08-03-2010, 10:21 PM
Yes. Giving up four runs in the second was Kotsay's idea.

The White Sox last three losses -- the last game of the previous roadtrip in Oakland, the middle game of the three game series at home against the A's and tonight's loss -- were all games where the White Sox pitching gave up four runs in the second inning. There was a Sox win in that mix in which the White Sox were trailing by four going into the bottom of the second, but there was no four-run second.

Indeed, there were no Kotsay hits, but offensively Rios hurt the team more than any other White Sox hitter. The problem with the White Sox tonight was not Kotsay but starting pitching that didn't keep the White Sox in the game early.

Some might look at this game and question why the White Sox didn't trade Jackson for a big hitter, holding onto the belief that it would be possible to have done so. The pitching spot vacated by Peavy's injury has produced one strong game out of three by Hudson, sandwiched between a game where he game up five runs in four innings to the Royals and five runs in four innings to the A's, a strong outing by Harrell and today's game where Torres had given up five after two. To the White Sox' credit, they have won three of those five games, but the need to upgrade over the three minor-league callups the Sox have put in that role should be obvious.

The problem today, as it has been in many of the White Sox losses this year, was the pitching.
Mark Kotsay is an offensive black hole. I will hammer this point home as long as he's in the organization. It's a product of horrendous mismanagement of resources.

slavko
08-03-2010, 10:23 PM
Sad to say I was figuring this would most likely be a loss going into this game. With the win when Harrell was starting on Friday night against the A's, I didn't think the odds were there that we would see another good performance from a Triple-A arm... those odds played against the Sox tonight.

Tomorrow the era of Edwin Jackson in a Sox uniform begins, I for one am interested in what this guy can do for the Sox. We shall see...

And the Twins are still losing 6-3 in the bottom of the 8th... the Sox should gladly take the 1.5 game lead they will have (if Minnesota does lose) after a twin bill at Detroit.

Jackson. He might be the season right there. Would have loved a second win today against a snakebit, beatable team. Can't blame Torres, the offense may have needed an afternoon nap. A good team playing a snakebit team should win 3 of 4. Now it's gonna be harder.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2010, 10:29 PM
Mark Kotsay is an offensive black hole. I will hammer this point home as long as he's in the organization. It's a product of horrendous mismanagement of resources.

Well, Ozzie can't **** up CF any more with Rios hitting and fielding so well, so he's got scratch his itch to **** up another position. In Ozzie's bizarro world, CF is an offense-first position, and DH is a glove-first position.

In 2006, Ozzie thought one of the most powerful and productive lineups ever assembled on the South Side needed more hitting, so he sacrificed defense to put another hitter in CF.

In 2010, Ozzie thought one of the most anemic lineups assembled on the South Side during the last 20 years needed more defense, so he sacrificed offense to put a backup first baseman with a bad back in as the DH.

Seriously, is there anyone besides Ozzie who thinks it's a good idea for Kotsay to get the most ABs on this team as the DH?

Nelfox02
08-03-2010, 10:36 PM
hate to keep beating the dead horse, but yeah Kotsay must be eiter outright released or relegated to sparing bench use

again, as so many people have pointed out, you have 2 very good options just wasting away on the bench in Dayan and Lillibridge......dont get it.

If Kotsay is not in this game, do we win? Probably not.......but that doesnt change the fact that somone has to take away Ozzie's toy

flat loss = bummer

TDog
08-03-2010, 10:39 PM
Mark Kotsay is an offensive black hole. I will hammer this point home as long as he's in the organization. It's a product of horrendous mismanagement of resources.

And it's totally irrelevant. It didn't make any difference in Game 1 that Kotsay started. In the previous two White Sox losses, Kotsay didn't even play.

In fact, the last time Kotsay started in a game that the White Sox lost, White Sox pitching gave up 10 runs. Tonight, Rios was the offensive black hole after Vizquel went 3-for-3. But the problem wasn't the lack of offense.

The problem with the last four losses has been the starting pitching, and two of those losses were taken by Peavy replacements. And in the two losses before that, the White Sox lost leads at the end of the game, making the problem relief pitching.

Pablo_Honey
08-03-2010, 10:45 PM
The problem today, as it has been in many of the White Sox losses this year, was the pitching.
Torres went 6 innings giving up only 5 runs. That's not good but it's not like he got pulled in second inning by giving up 7 runs. You can't do much about such a situation but you can work with a 5 run 6 inning performance, especially when that's from your 5th starter. The offense scored 1 against Jeremy ****ing Bonderman. You'd have thought we were facing Verlander but we didn't. We got shut down by Jeremy ****ing Bonderman. You ain't gonna beat anybody if your offense only scores 1 run against garbage like Bonderman. Even the best pitchers average at least 1 run per outing. If the offense does its job, we wouldn't have had Pena come in and put a nail on the coffin.

soltrain21
08-03-2010, 10:45 PM
And it's totally irrelevant. It didn't make any difference in Game 1 that Kotsay started. In the previous two White Sox losses, Kotsay didn't even play.

In fact, the last time Kotsay started in a game that the White Sox lost, White Sox pitching gave up 10 runs. Tonight, Rios was the offensive black hole after Vizquel went 3-for-3. But the problem wasn't the lack of offense.

The problem with the last four losses has been the starting pitching, and two of those losses were taken by Peavy replacements. And in the two losses before that, the White Sox lost leads at the end of the game, making the problem relief pitching.

It isn't totally irrelevant to have a complete ****show of an offensive player playing an ENTIRELY offensive position.

How you don't comprehend that is beyond me. He isn't just talking about THIS game. He is talking about the whole year that Mark Kotsay has, for no reason whatsoever, been marched out there to ground out to second.

He has no business being a starter - let alone in a position that ONLY makes him hit since he sucks at hitting.

Coops4Aces
08-03-2010, 10:48 PM
And it's totally irrelevant. It didn't make any difference in Game 1 that Kotsay started. In the previous two White Sox losses, Kotsay didn't even play.

In fact, the last time Kotsay started in a game that the White Sox lost, White Sox pitching gave up 10 runs. Tonight, Rios was the offensive black hole after Vizquel went 3-for-3. But the problem wasn't the lack of offense.

The problem with the last four losses has been the starting pitching, and two of those losses were taken by Peavy replacements. And in the two losses before that, the White Sox lost leads at the end of the game, making the problem relief pitching.

So we wait until Kotsay costs us a game and then complain about it? :scratch:

ghostface36
08-03-2010, 10:49 PM
alex rios played horrible in this second game

Pablo_Honey
08-03-2010, 10:54 PM
alex rios played horrible in this second game
Just one of those days...which is everyday for Kotsay.

canOcorn
08-03-2010, 10:55 PM
Yes. Giving up four runs in the second was Kotsay's idea.

The White Sox last three losses -- the last game of the previous roadtrip in Oakland, the middle game of the three game series at home against the A's and tonight's loss -- were all games where the White Sox pitching gave up four runs in the second inning. There was a Sox win in that mix in which the White Sox were trailing by four going into the bottom of the second, but there was no four-run second.

Indeed, there were no Kotsay hits, but offensively Rios hurt the team more than any other White Sox hitter. The problem with the White Sox tonight was not Kotsay but starting pitching that didn't keep the White Sox in the game early.

Some might look at this game and question why the White Sox didn't trade Jackson for a big hitter, holding onto the belief that it would be possible to have done so. The pitching spot vacated by Peavy's injury has produced one strong game out of three by Hudson, sandwiched between a game where he game up five runs in four innings to the Royals and five runs in four innings to the A's, a strong outing by Harrell and today's game where Torres had given up five after two. To the White Sox' credit, they have won three of those five games, but the need to upgrade over the three minor-league callups the Sox have put in that role should be obvious.

The problem today, as it has been in many of the White Sox losses this year, was the pitching.

Stop! Mark Kotsay is a horrible hitter this year and has no business being the DH, on a regular basis, over players that are producing far better than he can dream at this point. He shouldn't be DH over any single offensive player on the 25 man roster.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2010, 10:55 PM
And it's totally irrelevant. It didn't make any difference in Game 1 that Kotsay started. In the previous two White Sox losses, Kotsay didn't even play.

In fact, the last time Kotsay started in a game that the White Sox lost, White Sox pitching gave up 10 runs. Tonight, Rios was the offensive black hole after Vizquel went 3-for-3. But the problem wasn't the lack of offense.

The problem with the last four losses has been the starting pitching, and two of those losses were taken by Peavy replacements. And in the two losses before that, the White Sox lost leads at the end of the game, making the problem relief pitching.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that pitching is the most important part of a team.

However, it is possible to take your argument to an absurd extreme, to blame the pitching if the Sox lose a 1-0 game? Isn't the pitching at fault for giving up too many runs in each and every loss?

Maybe Kotsay didn't cost us tonight's game. But putting Brian Anderson and his .220 average in at CF was enough to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. It would have been incomprehensibly stupid to have BA start 2/3rds of Sox games as the DH. But Kotsay is hitting just as poorly as BA did. And yet Ozzie has him DH more than any other player on the team.

Don't you see this as a problem?

canOcorn
08-03-2010, 10:57 PM
So we wait until Kotsay costs us a game and then complain about it? :scratch:

Exactly, hindsight is 20/20. :rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2010, 11:03 PM
If Kotsay was hitting .220, but had 25 homers and 60+ RBI, an argument could be made to have him DH.

If Kotsay was hitting .220, but had a .340 OBP and 35 steals and a bunch of doubles and triples, an argument could me made to have him DH.

If Kotsay was hitting .220, but had an elite glove at an important defensive position, an argument could be made to have him DH.

But Kotsay is hitting .220, has a bad back and thus can only play a position currently occupied by the Sox best power hitter and captain. There is no reasonable argument for Kotsay to be getting more ABs as the DH than any other player on the team.

I can accept that Ozzie wants to rest Paulie by having him DH occasionally, on on those occasions I have no problem with Kotsay playing first base.

But under no circumstances other than a diarrhea epidemic affecting half of the Sox hitters, should Kotsay EVER be the DH.

thomas35forever
08-03-2010, 11:03 PM
Meh. Forget it. Get 'em tomorrow.

VMSNS
08-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Did anyone catch Boers and Berstein the other day when they mentioned Ozzie's own acknowledgment of his crazy lineups? Apparently, someone interviewed him about this very subject, and Oz said that if it were up to him, he'd have a lineup consisting of all speed guys, no home-run hitters, and Juan Pierre hitting 4th.

No joke.

canOcorn
08-03-2010, 11:10 PM
Meh. Forget it. Get 'em tomorrow.

Wish I could, but I know Kotsay will be batting 6th tomorrow, over a superior hitter, and reducing the Sox's chances of winning the game.

elrod
08-03-2010, 11:15 PM
Every loss is frustrating. But Lord knows I'd rather lose a game 7-1 then blow a lead late or screw up a late-inning rally. We were beat tonight, plain and simple. Bonderman somehow managed to pitch a great game. His stuff was on. Torres settled down eventually but he gave up three runs with two outs in the 2nd, and that may have demoralized the Sox a bit. The guys just weren't sharp tonight - like they were in the day game. Oh well. It happens in a long season.

Unless tonight's performance heralds a downward plunge in team batting, fielding and hitting then we should just chalk this up to "one of those games" that every team loses now and then. Fortunately the Twinkies lost too, so we end up a half game higher in the standings than yesterday. And while nobody can predict the future I think we can all look with excitement at Edwin Jackson's debut tomorrow.

This team has done amazing things since early June. Hopefully tomorrow will be another one of those amazing games that propels the Sox to a championship. A World Series championship.

Dick Allen
08-03-2010, 11:16 PM
Wish I could, but I know Kotsay will be batting 6th tomorrow, over a superior hitter, and reducing the Sox's chances of winning the game.Yeah, there's a RH going for Detroit tomorrow and Thursday, so looks like we're screwed at DH again. Thanks, Ozzie.

elrod
08-03-2010, 11:16 PM
I couldn't help but notice that the latest posters on WSI are from Iowa, Texas and Tennessee. The White Sox Diaspora lives!

Dibbs
08-03-2010, 11:24 PM
Does anyone have Ozzie's or Kenny's email. I think I am going to start sending them 10+ emails a day in my crusade to get Kotsay off the team, out of the lineup, or even a spot on the coaching staff if they desire. Has there ever been someone, in all of baseball history, so obviously bad/ineffective/no future or potential that gets trotted out there day after day like Mark Kotsay?

shingo10
08-03-2010, 11:33 PM
Does anyone have Ozzie's or Kenny's email. I think I am going to start sending them 10+ emails a day in my crusade to get Kotsay off the team, out of the lineup, or even a spot on the coaching staff if they desire. Has there ever been someone, in all of baseball history, so obviously bad/ineffective/no future or potential that gets trotted out there day after day like Mark Kotsay?

Louis Terrero?
Andy Gonzalez?
Royce Clayton?
Ben Davis?

Dibbs
08-03-2010, 11:40 PM
Louis Terrero?
Andy Gonzalez?
Royce Clayton?
Ben Davis?[/QUOTE]

Sadly, these guys were more effective. Maybe not Andy Gonzalez, but at least we were smart enough to cut ties with that bum. The other guys were more effective offensively, and we were not dumb enough to DH any of these guys at any point. Some even played solid defense.

soxinem1
08-03-2010, 11:48 PM
I don't know what is more mind boggling, the people defending him here or Ozzie continuing to trot him out there.

My take is this:

If Kotsay was used and performed like he did when he was first acquired last year, that would be a different story. He was able to play some OF and 1B well enough that he could have been used to spell Paulie and most of the OF'ers.

And for the most part his signing was met favorably as long as he was not a regular or even semi-regular position player.

Early on it was apparent that Kotsay was not able to play the OF anymore (he even said so), and is just a passable defensive 1B.

Since he has never been even close to an elite offensive player, it mystifies me, along with others here, why Guillen keeps trotting him out there with such a limited skill set.

Is Kotsay the reason that DET beat us in game two? Of course not. Bonderman pitched well enough to win and Torres' hanging curves and wildness gave the Tigers enough offense tonight.

But the bottom line is that Kotsay is nothing more than a PH, which means he really has no place on this team. He is taking valuable AB's away from others who are versatile and productive, and it is time to make a change.

If Ozzie loves his leadership so much, then make him a coach.

If Kotsay is such a great leader, he should admit that he is not helping this team and should step aside.

TDog
08-04-2010, 12:05 AM
I understand what you're saying and I agree that pitching is the most important part of a team.

However, it is possible to take your argument to an absurd extreme, to blame the pitching if the Sox lose a 1-0 game? Isn't the pitching at fault for giving up too many runs in each and every loss?

Maybe Kotsay didn't cost us tonight's game. But putting Brian Anderson and his .220 average in at CF was enough to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. It would have been incomprehensibly stupid to have BA start 2/3rds of Sox games as the DH. But Kotsay is hitting just as poorly as BA did. And yet Ozzie has him DH more than any other player on the team.

Don't you see this as a problem?

I see the problem in tonight's game. Tonight Kotsay wasn't the problem. The problem was the starting pitching let the game get away from the Sox. The problem was that four of the nine innings the White Sox played tonight ended with at least one runner on base and Rios making an out.

Every losing postgame thread, and sometimes even postgame thread after wins, turns into a "Kotsay sucks" session just as every postgame thread early in the season was a "fire Greg Walker" session.

And it's irrelevant. The White Sox aren't losing games 1-0. They are losing games when their starting pitchers give up four runs in the second inning.

Hitmen77
08-04-2010, 12:10 AM
Some might look at this game and question why the White Sox didn't trade Jackson for a big hitter, holding onto the belief that it would be possible to have done so. The pitching spot vacated by Peavy's injury has produced one strong game out of three by Hudson, sandwiched between a game where he game up five runs in four innings to the Royals and five runs in four innings to the A's, a strong outing by Harrell and today's game where Torres had given up five after two. To the White Sox' credit, they have won three of those five games, but the need to upgrade over the three minor-league callups the Sox have put in that role should be obvious.



Today's game wasn't taken by Peavy's vacated pitching spot. The Sox went with a 6th starter tonight because of the double header today. Peavy's spot in the rotation last pitched on Friday (Harrell's win) and will be up again tomorrow with Jackson pitching for us.

BadBobbyJenks
08-04-2010, 12:12 AM
I see the problem in tonight's game. Tonight Kotsay wasn't the problem. The problem was the starting pitching let the game get away from the Sox. The problem was that four of the nine innings the White Sox played tonight ended with at least one runner on base and Rios making an out.

Every losing postgame thread, and sometimes even postgame thread after wins, turns into a "Kotsay sucks" session just as every postgame thread early in the season was a "fire Greg Walker" session.

And it's irrelevant. The White Sox aren't losing games 1-0. They are losing games when their starting pitchers give up four runs in the second inning.

There aren't many things to complain about right now, but there is one MAJOR thing to complain about. That problem is a DH in a DH league hitting .214 and hitting in the 5th and 6th spots in the order. Hell sometimes it is third. When things are going good and we win how many times can you say great game, but when we lose and Kotsay again contributes nothing, it upsets people.

Whether we win or lose, Kotsay is a problem that needs to be fixed.

Hitmen77
08-04-2010, 12:15 AM
by the way, no surprise here (regardless of the outcome of tonight's game): Torres officially back to AAA.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20100803&content_id=12992988&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

canOcorn
08-04-2010, 12:18 AM
And it's irrelevant. The White Sox aren't losing games 1-0. They are losing games when their starting pitchers give up four runs in the second inning.

Not irrelevant.

They're losing games when their DH is putting up a line of .300/.345/.646.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2010, 12:22 AM
I see the problem in tonight's game. Tonight Kotsay wasn't the problem. The problem was the starting pitching let the game get away from the Sox. The problem was that four of the nine innings the White Sox played tonight ended with at least one runner on base and Rios making an out.

Every losing postgame thread, and sometimes even postgame thread after wins, turns into a "Kotsay sucks" session just as every postgame thread early in the season was a "fire Greg Walker" session.

And it's irrelevant. The White Sox aren't losing games 1-0. They are losing games when their starting pitchers give up four runs in the second inning.

He wasn't the problem tonight, so let's ignore that he's the biggest problem overall?

Mark Kotsay is not a DH. He isn't a 3-4-5-6 hitter, either. He damned sure isn't both of those, and he isn't the best available player for those spots. It's indefensible.

People are harping on it because it's absolutely infuriating that our manager keeps shoving this bull**** down our throat game after game, then when Kotsay fails to produce yet again, we come on here and see people talking about how he isn't the problem.

Dibbs
08-04-2010, 01:01 AM
Yes. Giving up four runs in the second was Kotsay's idea.

The White Sox last three losses -- the last game of the previous roadtrip in Oakland, the middle game of the three game series at home against the A's and tonight's loss -- were all games where the White Sox pitching gave up four runs in the second inning. There was a Sox win in that mix in which the White Sox were trailing by four going into the bottom of the second, but there was no four-run second.

Indeed, there were no Kotsay hits, but offensively Rios hurt the team more than any other White Sox hitter. The problem with the White Sox tonight was not Kotsay but starting pitching that didn't keep the White Sox in the game early.

Some might look at this game and question why the White Sox didn't trade Jackson for a big hitter, holding onto the belief that it would be possible to have done so. The pitching spot vacated by Peavy's injury has produced one strong game out of three by Hudson, sandwiched between a game where he game up five runs in four innings to the Royals and five runs in four innings to the A's, a strong outing by Harrell and today's game where Torres had given up five after two. To the White Sox' credit, they have won three of those five games, but the need to upgrade over the three minor-league callups the Sox have put in that role should be obvious.

The problem today, as it has been in many of the White Sox losses this year, was the pitching.

You can make all of the excuses you want about any individual game. You are completely missing the big picture when you attempt to make an argument like this. Over the course of the year, however, having a DH this bad adds up. We could be 4 or 5 games up on the Twins if we had an average DH.

slavko
08-04-2010, 01:12 AM
Maybe Kotsay didn't cost us tonight's game. But putting Brian Anderson and his .220 average in at CF was enough to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. It would have been incomprehensibly stupid to have BA start 2/3rds of Sox games as the DH. But Kotsay is hitting just as poorly as BA did. And yet Ozzie has him DH more than any other player on the team.

Don't you see this as a problem?

Too bad WSI wasn't around in its full glory when Mike Cameron was hitting .200 for a full season in CF and keeping his job. He was a better fielder than Brain, though. At least any lucid person would think so, despite a recent in-game poll in which 5 recent defensive CF's were rated and BA won over Rios, Rowand and ? while Cameron got 3% of the vote. Short memories. Unlike us at WSI. (I think.)

Foulke You
08-04-2010, 01:16 AM
Overall, I'm ok with the Sox performance today. Took care of business in Game 1 and they gained another 1/2 game on the Twins while still having 1 game in hand. Anytime you gain ground on the road is a bonus. Bonderman pitched a good game and kept our offense guessing wrong most of the night. The few rallies we had going were quickly stifled by the double plays. You are going to have losses like this and sweeping a double header on the road with a AAA pitcher starting one of the games is very tough. The strong bullpen arms like Putz, Thornton, and Jenks remain fresh and ready to go for tomorrow along with a hopefully rejuvenated Edwin Jackson. My only critique of Ozzie is that I would have rotated in more bench players in Game 2. I was surprised to not see Lillibridge and Viciedo in the starting lineup for Game 2.

Dub25
08-04-2010, 01:22 AM
Any chance at a come back was killed when Tony Pena threw that ball away. But really you had two automatic outs in that lineup with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. I'm sick of Kotsay, maybe he provides leadership but the only thing I see that he provides is leading the league in weakly hit ground balls to second.

I shouldn't be as upset about this game as I am, but I'm pissed. Tomorrow is no sure thing. God damn. A win tonight and we would have picked up what, two games on Minnesota?

He has hit the ball hard alot but i'm with you. when they burned his bats last week they should've set him on fire to.

Dub25
08-04-2010, 01:23 AM
Carlos Torres is also now the best option we have down at the farm and will be the fifth starter if another one of out guys goes down.

What about Lucas? Me and a buddy were talking about this earlier.

hawkjt
08-04-2010, 01:28 AM
Bonderman was good tonite...and a good righty can shut the Sox down with their pathetic lefthanded hitting. But Torres was the problem. The Tigers get that lead,and it let Bonderman get real comfortable.
The Tigers are a glorified AAA team hitting wise right now,and Torres just let them have cheap runs.

Every game is big,so hopefully the rest of our starts will be with our regular rotation. Lets hope for the best with Edwin Jackson going to the bump tomorrow.
Go Rays.

UofCSoxFan
08-04-2010, 01:48 AM
Seems like there is a lot of Kotsay hate in here and while I can't say I disagree, I'm thinking once Teahen comes back he has a shot to supplant Kotsay as the lefty portion of the DH platoon. Kotsay is only hitting about .235 against righties this year so it really makes little sense to play him against them.

That being said, we acquired Kotsay originaly to ph and to provide insurance at 1B (and OF too, but I guess he can't play there now). Maybe I'm naively optmistic but I'm hoping that unless his head is completely screwed up, he can provide some value returning to that role. Maybe, just maybe, when he realizes he has to make his one AB a game count, he won't be so eager to roll over the first pitch he sees to 2B.

The one good thing about the "rotating DH" is that it's allowed us to keep a bunch of guys fresh...but its getting to the point where a change needs to be made.

The thing is at DH you have to hit to help the team. AJ has been struggling a lot of the year but he can still help the team calling a good game and keeping runners on 1B. Vizquel could hit .150 and would still have value. Beckham played solid 2B which allowed him to stay in the lineup even after 3 brutal months. Kotsay is bringing nothing but a few hard hit outs scattered between weak groundouts.

The Sox didn't lose this game because of Kotsay, but losing a game does remove the "why mess a winning thing" justication that many of us, my self included, tend to spit out.

EndemicSox
08-04-2010, 04:46 AM
Kotsay has stunk, but he has also been ridiculously unlucky on batted balls...if his luck changes, like it does in these situations 99% of the time, I expect his Aug and Sep numbers will be better than his career averages...

soxinem1
08-04-2010, 07:12 AM
Too bad WSI wasn't around in its full glory when Mike Cameron was hitting .200 for a full season in CF and keeping his job. He was a better fielder than Brain, though. At least any lucid person would think so, despite a recent in-game poll in which 5 recent defensive CF's were rated and BA won over Rios, Rowand and ? while Cameron got 3% of the vote. Short memories. Unlike us at WSI. (I think.)

What suprised me just as much as Cameron's low ranking was Rios polling lower than Rowand. Both are way better defensive CF than Rowand.

kufram
08-04-2010, 08:18 AM
Kotsay was NOT the DH last night. Konerko was DH and Kotsay was the 1B.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 08:21 AM
Seems like there is a lot of Kotsay hate in here and while I can't say I disagree, I'm thinking once Teahen comes back he has a shot to supplant Kotsay as the lefty portion of the DH platoon. Kotsay is only hitting about .235 against righties this year so it really makes little sense to play him against them.

That being said, we acquired Kotsay originaly to ph and to provide insurance at 1B (and OF too, but I guess he can't play there now). Maybe I'm naively optmistic but I'm hoping that unless his head is completely screwed up, he can provide some value returning to that role. Maybe, just maybe, when he realizes he has to make his one AB a game count, he won't be so eager to roll over the first pitch he sees to 2B.

The one good thing about the "rotating DH" is that it's allowed us to keep a bunch of guys fresh...but its getting to the point where a change needs to be made.

The thing is at DH you have to hit to help the team. AJ has been struggling a lot of the year but he can still help the team calling a good game and keeping runners on 1B. Vizquel could hit .150 and would still have value. Beckham played solid 2B which allowed him to stay in the lineup even after 3 brutal months. Kotsay is bringing nothing but a few hard hit outs scattered between weak groundouts.

The Sox didn't lose this game because of Kotsay, but losing a game does remove the "why mess a winning thing" justication that many of us, my self included, tend to spit out.
He's a backup first baseman with a decent glove and no bat. Now that he can no longer play the outfield, he has no business in MLB.
Kotsay was NOT the DH last night. Konerko was DH and Kotsay was the 1B.
no moar kotsay

doublem23
08-04-2010, 08:34 AM
Kotsay was NOT the DH last night. Konerko was DH and Kotsay was the 1B.

Oh, that makes everything better.

SI1020
08-04-2010, 08:55 AM
What suprised me just as much as Cameron's low ranking was Rios polling lower than Rowand. Both are way better defensive CF than Rowand. Better I'll grant you. Way better no.

russ99
08-04-2010, 09:10 AM
Seems like there is a lot of Kotsay hate in here and while I can't say I disagree, I'm thinking once Teahen comes back he has a shot to supplant Kotsay as the lefty portion of the DH platoon. Kotsay is only hitting about .235 against righties this year so it really makes little sense to play him against them.

That being said, we acquired Kotsay originaly to ph and to provide insurance at 1B (and OF too, but I guess he can't play there now). Maybe I'm naively optmistic but I'm hoping that unless his head is completely screwed up, he can provide some value returning to that role. Maybe, just maybe, when he realizes he has to make his one AB a game count, he won't be so eager to roll over the first pitch he sees to 2B.

The one good thing about the "rotating DH" is that it's allowed us to keep a bunch of guys fresh...but its getting to the point where a change needs to be made.

The thing is at DH you have to hit to help the team. AJ has been struggling a lot of the year but he can still help the team calling a good game and keeping runners on 1B. Vizquel could hit .150 and would still have value. Beckham played solid 2B which allowed him to stay in the lineup even after 3 brutal months. Kotsay is bringing nothing but a few hard hit outs scattered between weak groundouts.

The Sox didn't lose this game because of Kotsay, but losing a game does remove the "why mess a winning thing" justication that many of us, my self included, tend to spit out.

Good post.

Ironic how Quentin hits sub .220 for over a month and he gets a free pass, but everyone wants someone with a track record much longer thrown away due to bad numbers because he's not a slugger. Where's the calls to release Andruw, who's hitting worse?

Similar for A.J. and Beckham. Strange how some players are deemed a waste of a roster spot and others with similar numbers over a long stretch aren't.

You guys love to deem someone "Ozzie's Boy" and stick with it, don't you. When Beckham got 2 months of regular playing time to break out of his slump, did you consider him the same?

However, I do agree it's time to try other players at DH, and put Kotsay in the role he was intended for, lefty bench player.

cws05champ
08-04-2010, 09:14 AM
Kotsay has stunk, but he has also been ridiculously unlucky on batted balls...if his luck changes, like it does in these situations 99% of the time, I expect his Aug and Sep numbers will be better than his career averages...
Would you like to bank on that luck changing or just put someone else in the DH spot? Kotsay has a spot on this team, as a 1B replacement and PH (He has a great career PH avg). He should be in that spot, but the sox have asked too much of him. Maybe if Lillibeast and Viciedo were to play almost everyday they may be more exposed by pitchers who can game plan for them. But we have to see don't we??? I mean you can not have a guy hitting .400 and getting solid hits and great AB's sitting all the time while Kotsay is out there at DH. You can't have Viciedo, who is mashing the ball at least once a game, sitting because of Kotsay.

I really hope they just DL Kotsay for a bad back soon and play Viciedo or Lillibridge somewhere in the lineup.

doublem23
08-04-2010, 09:26 AM
Holy ****, I don't even know where to start with this...

Good post.

Ironic how Quentin hits sub .220 for over a month and he gets a free pass, but everyone wants someone with a track record much longer thrown away due to bad numbers because he's not a slugger. Where's the calls to release Andruw, who's hitting worse?

There were plenty of people calling for Carlos' head earlier this year, what planet were you living on in April and May? On top of that, TCQ is 27 years old, was a top prospect for Arizona, and had an outstanding 2008 season. Mark Kotsay is well on the wrong side of 30, has a bad back, and NEVER EVER had a season like Quentin's 2008.

As for Jones, a lot of never wanted him to play in the first place (surprise, surprise, it's August and Jones is barely hitting .200), but at least he doesn't play everyday and does serve a purpose on this team, he's the best backup OF we have. There's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between your late inning OF replacement hitting .200 and your EVERYDAY DESIGNATED HITTER hitting .220. Do you honestly not understand this concept?

Similar for A.J. and Beckham. Strange how some players are deemed a waste of a roster spot and others with similar numbers over a long stretch aren't.

You guys love to deem someone "Ozzie's Boy" and stick with it, don't you. When Beckham got 2 months of regular playing time to break out of his slump, did you consider him the same?

The fact that you would compare Beckham to Kotsay speaks volumes as to how little of this argument you seem able to grasp. I mean, this is mind boggling.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 09:28 AM
Good post.

Ironic how Quentin hits sub .220 for over a month and he gets a free pass, but everyone wants someone with a track record much longer thrown away due to bad numbers because he's not a slugger. Where's the calls to release Andruw, who's hitting worse?

Similar for A.J. and Beckham. Strange how some players are deemed a waste of a roster spot and others with similar numbers over a long stretch aren't.

You guys love to deem someone "Ozzie's Boy" and stick with it, don't you. When Beckham got 2 months of regular playing time to break out of his slump, did you consider him the same?

However, I do agree it's time to try other players at DH, and put Kotsay in the role he was intended for, lefty bench player.
Jeebus. This is insanity. Point by point, here we go.

Quentin: Carlos is 27 years old. He almost won the AL MVP two years ago. He was given a free pass largely because the season seemed like it was a waste of time in May. And, for the record, I even said he could be a non-tender candidate if he didn't turn it around, and was (somewhat rightfully) panned for it. I didn't give him a free pass.

A.J.: He sucks, and I will dance in the streets when he is finally cut loose.

Andruw: I'd be dancing on the tables if Kotsay was capable of putting up a .751 OPS. Slugging-driven as it's been, Andruw hasn't been a complete waste of roster space (.235/.350/.515 versus lefties). A fine fourth outfielder.

Beckham: He's not Ozzie's boy. He's the future. Of course he got playing time to snap out of it. He was adjusting to pitcher's adjustments.

What is Kotsay's track record, exactly? Since 2007, he has a 78 OPS+. He can no longer play the outfield. He literally has no use on this roster -- I don't know what, at all, his terrible performance has to do with Beckham, Andruw, etc.

GoSox2K3
08-04-2010, 09:32 AM
Seems like there is a lot of Kotsay hate in here and while I can't say I disagree, I'm thinking once Teahen comes back he has a shot to supplant Kotsay as the lefty portion of the DH platoon. Kotsay is only hitting about .235 against righties this year so it really makes little sense to play him against them.

That being said, we acquired Kotsay originaly to ph and to provide insurance at 1B (and OF too, but I guess he can't play there now). Maybe I'm naively optmistic but I'm hoping that unless his head is completely screwed up, he can provide some value returning to that role. Maybe, just maybe, when he realizes he has to make his one AB a game count, he won't be so eager to roll over the first pitch he sees to 2B.

The one good thing about the "rotating DH" is that it's allowed us to keep a bunch of guys fresh...but its getting to the point where a change needs to be made.

The thing is at DH you have to hit to help the team. AJ has been struggling a lot of the year but he can still help the team calling a good game and keeping runners on 1B. Vizquel could hit .150 and would still have value. Beckham played solid 2B which allowed him to stay in the lineup even after 3 brutal months. Kotsay is bringing nothing but a few hard hit outs scattered between weak groundouts.

The Sox didn't lose this game because of Kotsay, but losing a game does remove the "why mess a winning thing" justication that many of us, my self included, tend to spit out.

Good post.

Ironic how Quentin hits sub .220 for over a month and he gets a free pass, but everyone wants someone with a track record much longer thrown away due to bad numbers because he's not a slugger. Where's the calls to release Andruw, who's hitting worse?

Similar for A.J. and Beckham. Strange how some players are deemed a waste of a roster spot and others with similar numbers over a long stretch aren't.

You guys love to deem someone "Ozzie's Boy" and stick with it, don't you. When Beckham got 2 months of regular playing time to break out of his slump, did you consider him the same?

However, I do agree it's time to try other players at DH, and put Kotsay in the role he was intended for, lefty bench player.

:screwloose:

So you think he made a good post and then you say something totally contradictory to the point he was making?:?:

Come on Russ. You're obsession with defending anything and everything Ozzie does is really showing here.

But, we get it. Anyone who criticizes the Kotsay-everyday plan is just a hater. HATERS!!!! Just keep calling everyone a hater and that will make things all right.

.....but, but, Rios was hitless in game 2 yesterday. That proves that we should keep a .215 hitter in the lineup every day. If Rios and PK can't be heroes every day, then we may as well give 2 spots in the lineup to people who can't hit since it won't matter. (according to TDog).

doublem23
08-04-2010, 09:54 AM
Torres, to me, showed a lot of guts. Giving up a lot of early runs in his ML debut. But settled down nicely. Hopefully we give him his chances in the future.

Yesterday was Carlos' 6th start and 9th MLB appearance in his career.

soltrain21
08-04-2010, 09:55 AM
Torres, to me, showed a lot of guts. Giving up a lot of early runs in his ML debut. But settled down nicely. Hopefully we give him his chances in the future.

He started 7 or 8 games last year.

Carneyman14
08-04-2010, 09:57 AM
i'm an idiot

Chez
08-04-2010, 10:00 AM
Guts were fine; command not so much.

doublem23
08-04-2010, 10:00 AM
i'm an idiot

Happens to the best of us

Carneyman14
08-04-2010, 10:06 AM
Send Torres down and keep him down he sucks



better? :gulp:

doublem23
08-04-2010, 10:12 AM
Send Torres down and keep him down he sucks

He already got sent down. :cool:

Railsplitter
08-04-2010, 10:20 AM
Sox win 14-8 on aggragate.:wink:

Harry Chappas
08-04-2010, 10:27 AM
Something else about Kotsay that I find annoying - maybe even more than his atrocious hitting- is his body language and lack of hustle. Has anyone else noticed him jogging down the line after rolling over to the second baseman for seemingly the 100th time? Now I realize that most players probably do the same thing, but when the player in question isn't hitting his weight, it bugs me more.

We've reached the point where continuing to play him regularly is absolute insanity. Viciedo got some time at 1B in the minors so I'm sure he could be at least serviceable in that role on those rare days where Konerko is given a breather. For that matter, I'm sure Lillibridge could the same.

kufram
08-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Oh, that makes everything better.


Of course not. But it does make it correct.

Carneyman14
08-04-2010, 10:39 AM
He already got sent down. :cool:



Yeah....then I added the keep him down

SI1020
08-04-2010, 10:44 AM
i'm an idiot Don't let it stop you. I don't let it stop me.

russ99
08-04-2010, 11:24 AM
:screwloose:

So you think he made a good post and then you say something totally contradictory to the point he was making?:?:

Come on Russ. You're obsession with defending anything and everything Ozzie does is really showing here.

But, we get it. Anyone who criticizes the Kotsay-everyday plan is just a hater. HATERS!!!! Just keep calling everyone a hater and that will make things all right.

.....but, but, Rios was hitless in game 2 yesterday. That proves that we should keep a .215 hitter in the lineup every day. If Rios and PK can't be heroes every day, then we may as well give 2 spots in the lineup to people who can't hit since it won't matter. (according to TDog).

I didn't say anything contradictory to that post. My point is Kotsay is deemed the biggest failure in 10 years on the south side, but other players who have poor numbers don't get the same treatment, he's being singled out for reasons that don't entirely have to do with his performance.

BTW - I'm also criticizing the Kotsay everyday plan - did I not say he should be on the bench? But the way that every thread is a rip on Kotsay is becoming beyond annoying.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 11:43 AM
I didn't say anything contradictory to that post. My point is Kotsay is deemed the biggest failure in 10 years on the south side, but other players who have poor numbers don't get the same treatment, he's being singled out for reasons that don't entirely have to do with his performance.

BTW - I'm also criticizing the Kotsay everyday plan - did I not say he should be on the bench? But the way that every thread is a rip on Kotsay is becoming beyond annoying.

Kotsay is not the failure. The men who put him in this position are the failures.

kufram
08-04-2010, 12:00 PM
Kotsay is not the failure. The men who put him in this position are the failures.


I can agree with that. My point would be to put that failure in the context with all the successes as well. It doesn't seem such an all-consuming issue in that light. TCM was being absolutely panned by some people on this site only last year and now he's being talked about as "possibly the best shortstop in baseball". Before you start, I'm not comparing him to Kotsay. I'm just saying if Kotsay is our big failure so far this year... I can live with it. IF he is still active IF we make it to the post-season, I could see him doing a Blum-moment or a Crede with the bat for 3-4 weeks. No science to back that up.... just a feeling.

LoveYourSuit
08-04-2010, 12:03 PM
There is just something odd about a SP who refuses to pitch from the wind-up to start an inning. :scratch:

soxlady8
08-04-2010, 12:06 PM
The second game was craptastic :(

Lucas H. did a great job with his last outing.
Why didn't Ozzie have him start again ?
Why did he go w Torres ?

soltrain21
08-04-2010, 12:06 PM
I didn't say anything contradictory to that post. My point is Kotsay is deemed the biggest failure in 10 years on the south side, but other players who have poor numbers don't get the same treatment, he's being singled out for reasons that don't entirely have to do with his performance.

BTW - I'm also criticizing the Kotsay everyday plan - did I not say he should be on the bench? But the way that every thread is a rip on Kotsay is becoming beyond annoying.

But his point was that people were putting up with Beckham's and AJ's bad numbers because they were doing other things to help the teams.

soltrain21
08-04-2010, 12:07 PM
The second game was craptastic :(

Lucas H. did a great job with his last outing.
Why didn't Ozzie have him start again ?
Why did he go w Torres ?

Far too short of rest.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 12:09 PM
Far too short of rest.

Jackson Tuesday and Harrell Wednesday would have been normal rest for both

LoveYourSuit
08-04-2010, 12:11 PM
Jackson Tuesday and Harrell Wednesday would have been normal rest for both


Agreed.

I don't understand why they did not go this way.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 12:13 PM
I can agree with that. My point would be to put that failure in the context with all the successes as well. It doesn't seem such an all-consuming issue in that light. TCM was being absolutely panned by some people on this site only last year and now he's being talked about as "possibly the best shortstop in baseball". Before you start, I'm not comparing him to Kotsay. I'm just saying if Kotsay is our big failure so far this year... I can live with it. IF he is still active IF we make it to the post-season, I could see him doing a Blum-moment or a Crede with the bat for 3-4 weeks. No science to back that up.... just a feeling.

Defensively, right? Certainly not in sum.

doublem23
08-04-2010, 12:16 PM
The second game was craptastic :(

Lucas H. did a great job with his last outing.
Why didn't Ozzie have him start again ?
Why did he go w Torres ?

Harrell got lucky in the 2nd inning, after he walked the bases loaded, that Daric Barton didn't hit his inning-ending flyout a bit further, because it was about 5 feet from being a grand slam. Harrell may not have allowed any runs, but he did walk 5 guys in 6 innings, much like Torres did last night. The only difference in their outings was that the Tigers capitalized on Torres' command issues early while Oakland let Lucas off the hook.

GoGoCrede
08-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Agreed.

I don't understand why they did not go this way.

I think someone said in the game thread that he couldn't be called up again less than 10 days after he got sent down? :shrug:

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 12:22 PM
I think someone said in the game thread that he couldn't be called up again less than 10 days after he got sent down? :shrug:

Unless it is to replace someone who goes on the DL (Threets)

BleacherBandit
08-04-2010, 12:34 PM
Harrell got lucky in the 2nd inning, after he walked the bases loaded, that Daric Barton didn't hit his inning-ending flyout a bit further, because it was about 5 feet from being a grand slam. Harrell may not have allowed any runs, but he did walk 5 guys in 6 innings, much like Torres did last night. The only difference in their outings was that the Tigers capitalized on Torres' command issues early while Oakland let Lucas off the hook.

I still think they should have brought the Harrell back up. I mean, why not? At least he had minor success on Friday.


EDIT:

I think someone said in the game thread that he couldn't be called up again less than 10 days after he got sent down? :shrug:

That is probably true.

canOcorn
08-04-2010, 12:43 PM
Unless it is to replace someone who goes on the DL (Threets)

The "official" reason was that Coop has mapped out the rest of the season and had planned on bringing someone up for this start to give everyone an extra day of rest. Tampa just did this, but with an obviously better pitcher in Hellickson. We would've needed to call someone up Saturday if we didn't do it yesterday.

The way it looks now we'll have Sweaty, Danks and Floyd facing Minnesota next week and Danks, Floyd and Buerhle facing them the next week. Even though yesterday didn't pan out, I'm okay with the move.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 12:46 PM
The "official" reason was that Coop has mapped out the rest of the season and had planned on bringing someone up for this start to give everyone an extra day of rest. Tampa just did this, but with an obviously better pitcher in Hellickson. We would've needed to call someone up Saturday if we didn't do it yesterday.

The way it looks now we'll have Sweaty, Danks and Floyd facing Minnesota next week and Danks, Floyd and Buerhle facing them the next week. Even though yesterday didn't pan out, I'm okay with the move.

And none of that changes if you pitch Jackson on Tuesday and Harrell on Wednesday.

canOcorn
08-04-2010, 12:53 PM
And none of that changes if you pitch Jackson on Tuesday and Harrell on Wednesday.

Except Jackson wouldn't get the extra rest and he looks like he needs it more than anyone. He's been completely bombed since throwing 150 pitches. I really feel this was a move to get him and Sweaty, more than anyone, an extra day.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 12:55 PM
Except Jackson wouldn't get the extra rest and he looks like he needs it more than anyone. He's been completely bombed since throwing 150 pitches. I really feel this was a move to get him and Sweaty, more than anyone, an extra day.

He would get 5 days rest before his next start. Torres had an ERA over 6 last season. Harrell got the job done on Friday. Harrell deserved the start.

kobo
08-04-2010, 01:02 PM
And none of that changes if you pitch Jackson on Tuesday and Harrell on Wednesday.
After a player is sent back down that player cannot be brought back up for 10 days. Do we know when Harrell pitched again in Charlotte? Also, Harrell had to go back down to make room for Jackson.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 01:05 PM
After a player is sent back down that player cannot be brought back up for 10 days. Do we know when Harrell pitched again in Charlotte? Also, Harrell had to go back down to make room for Jackson.

Again, he could have been called up yesterday instead of Torres when Threets went on the DL.

canOcorn
08-04-2010, 01:11 PM
He would get 5 days rest before his next start. Torres had an ERA over 6 last season. Harrell got the job done on Friday. Harrell deserved the start.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be much difference, other than Jackson got 6 days of rest since his last start, but will only get 4 days before his next (versus 5 and 5).

kobo
08-04-2010, 01:12 PM
Again, he could have been called up yesterday instead of Torres when Threets went on the DL.
He could have since he's pitching for Charlotte tomorrow. But what if he was called up and did the same thing Torres did last night? Then everyone would be questioning why Torres wasn't brought up.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 01:17 PM
He could have since he's pitching for Charlotte tomorrow. But what if he was called up and did the same thing Torres did last night? Then everyone would be questioning why Torres wasn't brought up.

I have no clue how Harrell would have pitched. All I'm saying is that Harrell deserved to make another start.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 01:18 PM
He would get 5 days rest before his next start. Torres had an ERA over 6 last season. Harrell got the job done on Friday. Harrell deserved the start.
Harrell is organizational fodder. He got lucky on Friday night to get through six innings. I'm glad we won the game, but let's not act like he performed miracles for us.

Torres might actually have a future in our bullpen. He deserved the start after twice (!) being the victim of awful timing earlier this season.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 01:25 PM
Harrell is organizational fodder. He got lucky on Friday night to get through six innings. I'm glad we won the game, but let's not act like he performed miracles for us.

Torres might actually have a future in our bullpen. He deserved the start after twice (!) being the victim of awful timing earlier this season.

Torres has no future in our pen. He now has a 6.29 ERA in 34.1 IP. He deserves nothing.

Harrell was in Louisville on a Friday morning when he got a call that he needed to start for the first place White Sox in Chicago in 12 hours. Maybe he got lucky, but he also go the job done in a game where everyone around here had already written off.

Listen, I know Harrell has done no place in the MLB, but neither does Torres.

Moses_Scurry
08-04-2010, 01:26 PM
If Torres hadn't just started two nights before they needed the callup he would have had the start against Oakland and the start against Detroit, and Harrell would still be in obscurity.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 01:28 PM
Torres has no future in our pen. He now has a 6.29 ERA in 34.1 IP. He deserves nothing.

Harrell was in Louisville on a Friday morning when he got a call that he needed to start for the first place White Sox in Chicago in 12 hours. Maybe he got lucky, but he also go the job done in a game where everyone around here had already written off.

Listen, I know Harrell has done no place in the MLB, but neither does Torres.
I don't give a **** about 34.1 IP. He might actually have a future. He'll probably bounce up and down between the majors and AAA for a little while, but if he gets in the right situation he could be a swingman. Harrell, as everyone knows at this point, has no future whatsoever.

It was a nice moment and a cool story. But that's all. Kenny made the right call.

doublem23
08-04-2010, 01:33 PM
Listen, I know Harrell has done no place in the MLB, but neither does Torres.

So who gives a ****?

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 01:37 PM
Fine let's pretend like Friday didn't happen.

Craig Grebeck
08-04-2010, 01:43 PM
Fine let's pretend like Friday didn't happen.
I don't think you understand what anyone is arguing here.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 01:48 PM
I don't think you understand what anyone is arguing here.

Some are arguing Torres deserved the start. Some are arguing Torres has a chance in the MLB. Some are arguing that Harrell is garbage and just got lucky.

Am I missing any?

LoveYourSuit
08-04-2010, 02:28 PM
Some are arguing Torres deserved the start. Some are arguing Torres has a chance in the MLB. Some are arguing that Harrell is garbage and just got lucky.

Am I missing any?

Yes, Kotsay sucks.

Coops4Aces
08-04-2010, 02:30 PM
Yes, Kotsay sucks.
I got that in my sig :D:

BadBobbyJenks
08-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Comparing Kotsay to Quentin and Beckham, is this really not shtick Russ?