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WhiteSox5187
07-31-2010, 05:07 PM
Someone posted here that Flowers went from being untouchable last year to a guy seemingly involved in every trade rumor this year. With AJ a free agent after this year and Flowers' defensive liabilites coupled with the fact that he has struck out a whopping 105 times in 283 ABs, I do not think that he is the answer, this raises the question what do we do about catcher? Bring back AJ? Someone else?

Banix12
07-31-2010, 05:12 PM
I would honestly be happy bringing back the tandem we've got right now if possible.

Victor Martinez is available as a free agent after this season but other than him it's the usual rogue's gallery of journeymen who are seemingly available every year

DirtySox
07-31-2010, 05:13 PM
Please someone else. I can't take anymore of AJ's fail. Nothing about his performance this year warrants an extension. And Flowers numbers speak for themselves.

No idea what else is out there. I hope Kenny gets creative this offseason.

WhiteSox5187
07-31-2010, 05:18 PM
I would honestly be happy bringing back the tandem we've got right now if possible.

Victor Martinez is available as a free agent after this season but other than him it's the usual rogue's gallery of journeymen who are seemingly available every year

I'd agree with bringing back AJ. Martinez is a horrid defensive catcher and has the worst arm in all of baseball and our pitchers have a hard enough time holding guys on (minus Buerhle). I know AJ is struggling this year but he's still one of the better catcher's in the AL.

DickAllen72
07-31-2010, 05:21 PM
Bring back AJ. Definitely.

NoNeckEra
07-31-2010, 05:34 PM
Bring back AJ. Definitely.
Why? Because he's a fan favorite?
He's below average defensively, and is slipping in that direction offensively as well.
I'm not a fan of bringing back Konerko either, but at least he's playing well enough to justify.
I'd agree that Flowers is likely not the answer, but all options should be explored.

dickallen15
07-31-2010, 05:43 PM
Why? Because he's a fan favorite?
He's below average defensively, and is slipping in that direction offensively as well.
I'm not a fan of bringing back Konerko either, but at least he's playing well enough to justify.
I'd agree that Flowers is likely not the answer, but all options should be explored.
His defensive metrics have actually been very solid this year. He just had his first 2 PB of the season the other night, and his CS rate is not bad. It helps when your pitchers actually hold runners on. I think he would take a discount to stay.

getonbckthr
07-31-2010, 05:44 PM
I wonder how much of of contract and potential of being traded earlier in season effected AJ?

Banix12
07-31-2010, 05:49 PM
Here's the Free Agent list this offseason at catcher

Brad Ausmus, Rod Barajas, Josh Bard, Henry Blanco, John Buck, Raul Chavez, Toby Hall, Ramon Hernandez (likely unless option vests with 120 games played), Gerald Laird, Jason LaRue, Victor Martinez, Chad Moeller, Bengie Molina, Jose Molina (has club option), Miguel Olivo (has club option), Mike Redmond, Mike Rivera, Yorvit Torrealba (mutual option) , Jason Varitek, Greg Zaun.

And of course AJ and castro, though the sox have a club option on castro

Anybody excited by anything here?

Zisk77
07-31-2010, 05:50 PM
Victor Martinez would be fine...at 1b or DH NOT at cathcher. I'm fine with one or two year deal for A.J. and bring Lucy up if Flowers doesn't get it together.

russ99
07-31-2010, 05:50 PM
Castro has a $1.2M option for next year.

Since none of the minor league catchers look up to the task, I'd love to see the Sox bring A.J. back for less that his $6.25M number this year.

Maybe the Sox can re-sign him to a 2-3 year declining deal for around $3-4.5M plus incentives.

tm1119
07-31-2010, 06:10 PM
AJ has the 6th worst OPS of all qualifying hitters in the MLB. Unless he signs for 2 or 3M I want no part of him. He's clearly been hurting this team all year. I would bring up Flowers and also sign a vet C like Barajas or Buck to platoon with him that would cost us 1/2 of what AJ did this year and more than likely be much more productive.

Of course AJ more than likely will be resigned cause he's 1 of Ozzie's guys though.

Daver
07-31-2010, 06:19 PM
AJ has the 6th worst OPS of all qualifying hitters in the MLB. Unless he signs for 2 or 3M I want no part of him. He's clearly been hurting this team all year. I would bring up Flowers and also sign a vet C like Barajas or Buck to platoon with him that would cost us 1/2 of what AJ did this year and more than likely be much more productive.

Of course AJ more than likely will be resigned cause he's 1 of Ozzie's guys though.

There is no stat that quantifies what AJ brings to the table, that is why judging talent based on numbers is an exercise in futility.

tm1119
07-31-2010, 06:28 PM
There is no stat that quantifies what AJ brings to the table, that is why judging talent based on numbers is an exercise in futility.

Im not going to get into this argument with you again. We shall agree to disagree on this issue, but theres no way I will ever see your side.

You could have a team full of guys like AJ with "intangibles" all you want, but talent wins baseball games is all I have to say.

Daver
07-31-2010, 06:33 PM
Im not going to get into this argument with you again. We shall agree to disagree on this issue, but theres no way I will ever see your side.

You could have a team full of guys like AJ with "intangibles" all you want, but talent wins baseball games is all I have to say.

Talent does win ballgames, but I don't think you could recognize it if it was staring you in the face.

tm1119
07-31-2010, 06:48 PM
Talent does win ballgames, but I don't think you could recognize it if it was staring you in the face.

I love how the mods around here abuse their power. If I said something something like that to you you would try to ban me. Anyway....

There is no debate to as to what talent is. In baseball there are concrete things called stats that are based completely on fact. Youre "intangibles" might as well be fairy dust because they dont exist. It is a players job to go out and perform up to a certain level. There is no debate that AJ is performing WAY under that level. Now if you think these "intangibles" AJ posses outweigh the fact that he cant hit a baseball to save his life, well that good for you. But youre completely wrong. Im guessing youre older? I can see youre still stuck thinking that hustle and grit win ball games? Sorry, but youre t-ball coach lied to you. The most talented team is going to win 9 out of 10 times.

soxfanreggie
07-31-2010, 06:56 PM
The most talented team is going to win 9 out of 10 times.

So that's why we have had so many teams with .900 or even .800 winning percentages all these years? Yes, talent is important, but it's not the only critical piece. You have to have players that are smart as well. No single "tool" a player has will win a championship. It takes several thIngs mixed together, plus sometimes a little luck.

Daver
07-31-2010, 07:08 PM
I love how the mods around here abuse their power. If I said something something like that to you you would try to ban me. .

I love how members here just don't grasp things.

I don't TRY to ban anyone, if I want someone gone I don't answer to anyone for that decision, and I don't ban people for disagreeing with me or for using flawed logic, but I know it is important to you to think that the mod staff here has an agenda, so please continue to think that.

tm1119
07-31-2010, 07:20 PM
I love how members here just don't grasp things.

I don't TRY to ban anyone, if I want someone gone I don't answer to anyone for that decision, and I don't ban people for disagreeing with me or for using flawed logic, but I know it is important to you to think that the mod staff here has an agenda, so please continue to think that.

You made a direct insult at me saying basically calling me dumb. I don't care but there is no
doubt a double standard there. I could care less
if you have no idea about baseball and disagree with me. I agreed to disagree with you and you decided to still take a jab regardless. Get off your high horse, this is a message board to discuss baseball. The whole discussion thing goes right out the window with you because you think you're opinion is fact all the time.

Daver
07-31-2010, 07:29 PM
The whole discussion thing goes right out the window with you because you think you're opinion is fact all the time.

The same can be said in reverse, and that applies to a lot of posters here, but the fact remains you are still posting, and there is no double standard.

I understand your need to think you are being persecuted, even though it is far from the truth, I generally chalk it up to Little Man Syndrome, Napolean suffered from it too.

tm1119
07-31-2010, 07:40 PM
The same can be said in reverse, and that applies to a lot of posters here, but the fact remains you are still posting, and there is no double standard.

I understand your need to think you are being persecuted, even though it is far from the truth, I generally chalk it up to Little Man Syndrome, Napolean suffered from it too.

Napolean complex is someone who is overly aggressive and in general a bully to compensate for something. Hmmm... Whos the mod that came into the thread insulting someone for no reason? Oh yeah, it was you. Nice try with another insult but yet again you have no idea what you are talking about.

cards press box
07-31-2010, 07:55 PM
I know a statistic that shows AJ's value: the won-loss records of his teams over the years. Teams for which AJ has caught have perennially been in contention. Even in his one year in SF, the Giants were eliminated on the last day of the season. In my view, AJ's knowledge and value as a signal caller has had a lot to do with the success of his teams. AJ handles a pitching staff very well and that skill is critical to any team's success.

AJ is a winner and I hope he stays with the Sox.

Daver
07-31-2010, 08:25 PM
Napolean complex is someone who is overly aggressive and in general a bully to compensate for something. Hmmm... Whos the mod that came into the thread insulting someone for no reason? Oh yeah, it was you. Nice try with another insult but yet again you have no idea what you are talking about.

I made no insults, I have no control over what you perceive though, you have to look in the mirror for that.

Jpgr91
07-31-2010, 10:11 PM
The Sox should not make the mistake of having too many aging veterans on the roster. The easiest way for a good baseball team to turn into a bad one is by relying too heavily on players in their decline. I would like to see the Sox move away from exposing themselves to the risks of fielding an "old" team. I think this puts the Sox in a position where they will retain either AJ or Konerko. I would rather see them retain Konerko.

Foulke You
07-31-2010, 10:15 PM
In my view, AJ's knowledge and value as a signal caller has had a lot to do with the success of his teams. AJ handles a pitching staff very well and that skill is critical to any team's success.
There is no doubt that the pitching staff got better when he joined the ballclub in 2005. He seems to call the right pitches more often than not. Many times when our pitchers have a rough inning, it is when they throw it in a different spot to where AJ is setting up to receive it. I will say that AJ is having his worst offensive year since joining the Sox. It could be age or it could just be that he is putting too much pressure on himself in a contract year. Perhaps a bit of both.

Frater Perdurabo
07-31-2010, 10:16 PM
I'd be happy keeping AJ and Castro, with Lucy at Charlotte as insurance.

With Viciedo killing the ball, there's no place to play Flowers, so we might as well deal him.

Jpgr91
07-31-2010, 10:17 PM
I'd be happy keeping AJ and Castro, with Lucy at Charlotte as insurance.

With Viciedo killing the ball, there's no place to play Flowers, so we might as well deal him.

I don't think Flowers has enough value to net any sort of return that would make him worth dealing.

MarySwiss
07-31-2010, 10:35 PM
Interesting, if somewhat heated, thread. :?:

My two cents: OF COURSE, talent is important. But anyone who believes that "intangibles" don't matter has likely not played a competitive sport.

IMO, both AJ and Castro should be back next year.

Banix12
07-31-2010, 10:40 PM
The Sox should not make the mistake of having too many aging veterans on the roster. The easiest way for a good baseball team to turn into a bad one is by relying too heavily on players in their decline. I would like to see the Sox move away from exposing themselves to the risks of fielding an "old" team. I think this puts the Sox in a position where they will retain either AJ or Konerko. I would rather see them retain Konerko.

Certainly if there is a younger good option in the system to replace him, by all means. It's hard to say that the sox have one ready since Flowers has been less than stellar and has not earned a promotion.

I would also say that while AJ is having a down year, it's hard to say if this is just one bad season or the beginning of his decline. Also, most of catchers who are known to be available, at least free agent wise, are actually older than AJ. And the rest of them aren't much younger.

And the catcher position isn't particularly strong around the league so if a team has a young, good catcher they would probably be reluctant to part with them.

If you want the sox to get rid of an aging veteran for the sake of getting rid of an aging veteran, it would make more sense to part with Konerko since you could replace him with Viciedo. Though i don't necessarily agree with getting rid of veterans just because.

I'd say sign AJ to a one year contract with a club option for a second.

Jpgr91
07-31-2010, 10:53 PM
Certainly if there is a younger good option in the system to replace him, by all means. It's hard to say that the sox have one ready since Flowers has been less than stellar and has not earned a promotion.

I would also say that while AJ is having a down year, it's hard to say if this is just one bad season or the beginning of his decline. Also, most of catchers who are known to be available, at least free agent wise, are actually older than AJ. And the rest of them aren't much younger.

And the catcher position isn't particularly strong around the league so if a team has a young, good catcher they would probably be reluctant to part with them.

If you want the sox to get rid of an aging veteran for the sake of getting rid of an aging veteran, it would make more sense to part with Konerko since you could replace him with Viciedo. Though i don't necessarily agree with getting rid of veterans just because.

I'd say sign AJ to a one year contract with a club option for a second.

AJ will be 34 next year, there are not too many catchers that have productive seasons at that age. Buck is going to be 30 next season, I think signing him to a 2 year deal would be an upgrade over AJ as well as buy the team a few years to see if they can draft/develop a long term option.

I think Konerko has a few more productive years left in him. The Sox could move Viciedo to 1b and DH Konerko.

Either way, the outlook for the catcher position over the next few years is pretty dismal.

Brian26
07-31-2010, 11:04 PM
Get off your high horse, this is a message board to discuss baseball.

This is a sadly ironic comic when you consider that this place wouldn't even exist if not for Daver and Voodoo. They're anything but "on a high horse."

Brian26
07-31-2010, 11:07 PM
There is no debate to as to what talent is. In baseball there are concrete things called stats that are based completely on fact. Youre "intangibles" might as well be fairy dust because they dont exist. It is a players job to go out and perform up to a certain level. There is no debate that AJ is performing WAY under that level. Now if you think these "intangibles" AJ posses outweigh the fact that he cant hit a baseball to save his life, well that good for you. But youre completely wrong. Im guessing youre older? I can see youre still stuck thinking that hustle and grit win ball games? Sorry, but youre t-ball coach lied to you. The most talented team is going to win 9 out of 10 times.

Your entire weak argument doesn't even touch on AJ's contribution to the pitching core.

Banix12
07-31-2010, 11:12 PM
AJ will be 34 next year, there are not too many catchers that have productive seasons at that age. Buck is going to be 30 next season, I think signing him to a 2 year deal would be an upgrade over AJ as well as buy the team a few years to see if they can draft/develop a long term option.

I think Konerko has a few more productive years left in him. The Sox could move Viciedo to 1b and DH Konerko.

Either way, the outlook for the catcher position over the next few years is pretty dismal.

The only thing I question about Buck is he is having his best season at age 30. So when you weigh Buck vs. AJ, you have one catcher in AJ who is having the worst season of his career but in other seasons has been a good offensive catcher and pretty good defensively vs. Buck who is having a nice season but has never had a batting average even close to the .280 he is hitting now in seasons previous.

I honestly have more faith in AJ putting it back together next season than I do in Buck keeping this up. Just because I think AJ in being a career .283 hitter has earned the benefit of the doubt more than Buck.

MarySwiss
07-31-2010, 11:26 PM
I love how the mods around here abuse their power. If I said something something like that to you you would try to ban me. Anyway....

There is no debate to as to what talent is. In baseball there are concrete things called stats that are based completely on fact. Youre "intangibles" might as well be fairy dust because they dont exist. It is a players job to go out and perform up to a certain level. There is no debate that AJ is performing WAY under that level. Now if you think these "intangibles" AJ posses outweigh the fact that he cant hit a baseball to save his life, well that good for you. But youre completely wrong. Im guessing youre older? I can see youre still stuck thinking that hustle and grit win ball games? Sorry, but youre t-ball coach lied to you. The most talented team is going to win 9 out of 10 times.

Wow! This argument is just beyond sad on so many levels! You seem to be fond of expressing your opinion and calling it a fact. But it's still actually just your opinion.

"Intangibles" don't exist? Stats are the only true measure of ability? So the team that had the best statistics has won the WS every year? There is PLENTY of debate of what talent is; maybe just not in your world.

And yes, the intangibles AJ possesses count for a lot, IMO. And yes, hustle and grit do win ball games.

BTW, those of us who are "older" didn't play t-ball.

SI1020
07-31-2010, 11:31 PM
The most talented team is going to win 9 out of 10 times. You posted a lot of stuff that I consider BS, but I do have to agree with this. The only problem is what you consider to be "talent". It is often but not always quantifiable by a stat line.

Jpgr91
07-31-2010, 11:48 PM
The only thing I question about Buck is he is having his best season at age 30. So when you weigh Buck vs. AJ, you have one catcher in AJ who is having the worst season of his career but in other seasons has been a good offensive catcher and pretty good defensively vs. Buck who is having a nice season but has never had a batting average even close to the .280 he is hitting now in seasons previous.

I honestly have more faith in AJ putting it back together next season than I do in Buck keeping this up. Just because I think AJ in being a career .283 hitter has earned the benefit of the doubt more than Buck.

I do agree with you that there is a decent chance that AJ puts it back together, but if they bring him back he continues to regress the team will be in big trouble. I would hate for this team to find themsleves in a position where they start getting very old very fast.

And yes, hustle and grit do win ball games.

I think that is only true on the basepaths when taking the extra base or going in hard to break up a double play. In the the hitting, defense, or pitching phase of the game I am not sure how hustle and grit would help a player. It is not like hustling and grit can make you throw the ball harder or more accurte, make better contact, or take better routes to balls in play. In the baserunning phase of the game hustling can not make you run any faster. That being said, we have to assuming that all players maximize their efforts at all times. I think it is more accurate to say that players that play with less than maximum effort lose games rather than hustle and grit help win games.

Banix12
08-01-2010, 12:17 AM
I do agree with you that there is a decent chance that AJ puts it back together, but if they bring him back he continues to regress the team will be in big trouble. I would hate for this team to find themsleves in a position where they start getting very old very fast.

I know what you are talking about. I always think about the Baltimore Orioles of the late 90's as a good example of a veteran team that didn't know how to mix in their youth and just got old.

The only thing is I think the sox have set themselves up pretty well so at least the whole team won't get old at once. I mean right now they have I think 4 starters under 30. And if Teahen ever gets back in the starting lineup on a regular basis it would be 5. And then Viciedo on the bench. Kenny has shown a willingness to part with guys as they became less reliable so I'm not too worried.

This year was just weird since at the start nobody was hitting at all, young and old alike.

My opinion might change on this if AJ can't hit the broad side of a barn the next couple months but right now I'm not about to push him out the door.

Daver
08-01-2010, 04:22 PM
I think that is only true on the basepaths when taking the extra base or going in hard to break up a double play. In the the hitting, defense, or pitching phase of the game I am not sure how hustle and grit would help a player. It is not like hustling and grit can make you throw the ball harder or more accurte, make better contact, or take better routes to balls in play. In the baserunning phase of the game hustling can not make you run any faster. That being said, we have to assuming that all players maximize their efforts at all times. I think it is more accurate to say that players that play with less than maximum effort lose games rather than hustle and grit help win games.

AJ is the best baserunner on the team.

Speaking of "grit" ,if that is what you want to call it, there is no one in the game that gets in a batters head better than AJ, it's one of the reasons he's not exactly well liked, you get a hitter second guessing and you make the pitchers job a lot easier.

dickallen15
08-01-2010, 06:18 PM
I get a kick out of the poster who says the team with the most talent wins 9 out of 10 games. Who is he crapping? Winning 6 out of 10 games for the entire season gets you 97 victories.

MarySwiss
08-01-2010, 06:34 PM
I do agree with you that there is a decent chance that AJ puts it back together, but if they bring him back he continues to regress the team will be in big trouble. I would hate for this team to find themsleves in a position where they start getting very old very fast.



I think that is only true on the basepaths when taking the extra base or going in hard to break up a double play. In the the hitting, defense, or pitching phase of the game I am not sure how hustle and grit would help a player. It is not like hustling and grit can make you throw the ball harder or more accurte, make better contact, or take better routes to balls in play. In the baserunning phase of the game hustling can not make you run any faster. That being said, we have to assuming that all players maximize their efforts at all times. I think it is more accurate to say that players that play with less than maximum effort lose games rather than hustle and grit help win games.
I would argue that players who play with maximum effort are playing with hustle and grit.

TDog
08-01-2010, 07:45 PM
There is no stat that quantifies what AJ brings to the table, that is why judging talent based on numbers is an exercise in futility.

Numbers are all some people see when they see baseball.

Jpgr91
08-01-2010, 08:05 PM
AJ is the best baserunner on the team.

Speaking of "grit" ,if that is what you want to call it, there is no one in the game that gets in a batters head better than AJ, it's one of the reasons he's not exactly well liked, you get a hitter second guessing and you make the pitchers job a lot easier.

No doubt about it, AJ is a very intelligent baseball player. He is a very heads up baserunner. The problem with that is this year he has the lowest OBP on the team. He may be the best baserunner, but everyone gets on base more than he does.

I do agree that he does get in the oppositions heads a lot. With baseball being a game of focus, there is a value to this ability that can not be quanified by a statistic.

I would argue that players who play with maximum effort are playing with hustle and grit.

Fair enough. I would hope that since all players are professionals, they would give maximum effort all of the time. We all know this does not happen though.

Numbers are all some people see when they see baseball.

It really is the only professional sport in the world where numbers play such a significant role. I think that is why the game attracts a lot fans that care about the details that looking at all of the numbers provides.

WhiteSox5187
08-01-2010, 09:34 PM
No doubt about it, AJ is a very intelligent baseball player. He is a very heads up baserunner. The problem with that is this year he has the lowest OBP on the team. He may be the best baserunner, but everyone gets on base more than he does.

I do agree that he does get in the oppositions heads a lot. With baseball being a game of focus, there is a value to this ability that can not be quanified by a statistic.



Fair enough. I would hope that since all players are professionals, they would give maximum effort all of the time. We all know this does not happen though.



It really is the only professional sport in the world where numbers play such a significant role. I think that is why the game attracts a lot fans that care about the details that looking at all of the numbers provides.

There are so many details that looking at the numbers don't provide though. A great example would be today, Gio Gonzalez's line reads 4 earned runs in 8 IP for a fairly mediocre 4.5 ERA, but if Mat Carson in RF doesn't dive for Lillibridge's line drive then only two (maybe even one) run scores and god knows what happens next. It's one of those things that will not show up in the box score and none of the stats will reflect it but it totally changed the course of the game and hurt Gio's ERA. There are countless examples of this throughout every game and every season.

Sam Spade
08-01-2010, 10:56 PM
There are many things that aren't intangibles that also aren't measured by OPS. I say bring back AJ. I think he is just having an off year, and has a lot more left in the tank.

JB98
08-01-2010, 11:10 PM
Since the Sox lack a reasonable in-house alternative, I'm in favor of bringing Pierzynski back next year. Even with the bad offensive year he is having, I think he is the best player on the list of potential free-agent catchers.

mjmcend
08-01-2010, 11:22 PM
There are so many details that looking at the numbers don't provide though. A great example would be today, Gio Gonzalez's line reads 4 earned runs in 8 IP for a fairly mediocre 4.5 ERA, but if Mat Carson in RF doesn't dive for Lillibridge's line drive then only two (maybe even one) run scores and god knows what happens next. It's one of those things that will not show up in the box score and none of the stats will reflect it but it totally changed the course of the game and hurt Gio's ERA. There are countless examples of this throughout every game and every season.

This is less an argument about why numbers don't tell the whole story and more about why one stat (and a crappy one like ERA) don't tell the whole story. Even without getting into anything esoteric, Gio's WHIP for the day was .75. He only have up 6 hits and only one XBH. 11k to 0 BB is also great. I'll take a pitcher who throws that line up any day, and you are going to win more games than not. Bad defense isn't reflected in ERA which one of many examples of why its a terrible stat.

Luckily for the White Sox, Floyd threw a pretty good game himself.

doublem23
08-01-2010, 11:29 PM
OH BOY, a "stats" vs. "non-stats" debate. THIS SHOULD BRING IN SOME FRESH MATERIAL.

Craig Grebeck
08-01-2010, 11:44 PM
The "stats" vs. "non-stats" argument is irrelevant when discussing Pierzynski's performance this season. He's been awful. I'm sick and tired of seeing him loaf down the first base line.

Bring in another veteran catcher and he'll be quickly forgotten by the pitching staff.

tm1119
08-02-2010, 12:07 AM
The "stats" vs. "non-stats" argument is irrelevant when discussing Pierzynski's performance this season. He's been awful. I'm sick and tired of seeing him loaf down the first base line.

Bring in another veteran catcher and he'll be quickly forgotten by the pitching staff.

Thank you. And I would like to add how overrated signal calling is in the modern day mlb. Scouting and stats are so advanced that there is no excuse for any pitcher to not know what to throw in almost every situation. There are charts upon charts that show everything about every hitter in every lineup in every situation. There are dozens of catchers in the mlb that can do what AJ does. We just need to find 1 that can hit better, and that's really not that hard to do.

WhiteSox5187
08-02-2010, 01:40 AM
Thank you. And I would like to add how overrated signal calling is in the modern day mlb. Scouting and stats are so advanced that there is no excuse for any pitcher to not know what to throw in almost every situation. There are charts upon charts that show everything about every hitter in every lineup in every situation. There are dozens of catchers in the mlb that can do what AJ does. We just need to find 1 that can hit better, and that's really not that hard to do.

There is a hell of a lot more to calling a game than just knowing what hitters do. You have to know what a pitcher feels comfortable with throwing, you have to know how to pace the pitcher, know when to go out there and get them to focus and make adjustments quickly (when a pitcher's pitch isn't working) these are all things that AJ knows in and out with the staff. Notice you'll never see a pitcher shake him off and that's because he knows this staff so well, counter that with a guy like Mauer who has to go out to the mound and confer with the pitcher on seemingly every other god damn pitch (although Fisk liked doing that too).

southside rocks
08-02-2010, 07:34 AM
Thank you. And I would like to add how overrated signal calling is in the modern day mlb. Scouting and stats are so advanced that there is no excuse for any pitcher to not know what to throw in almost every situation. There are charts upon charts that show everything about every hitter in every lineup in every situation. There are dozens of catchers in the mlb that can do what AJ does. We just need to find 1 that can hit better, and that's really not that hard to do.

It's impossible to remove the psychology of the individual from the game no matter how many numbers you record and how many statistics are generated.

Some catchers handle pitchers in general, and some pitchers in particular, better than other catchers do. That's why Castro catches Freddy: they're in step with each other on more than just 'what pitch to throw', and a catcher's job is far more that deciding what pitch to throw. A catcher who can handle a pitching staff well -- AJ, Ivan Rodriguez, and quite a few others -- makes a valuable contribution to the team even if there is no statistical reduction of that into a number or an acronym. Managers and coaches, being in the actual game and not just viewing it through the lens of numbers on the internet, see this and acknowledge the value of those players.

I feel really sorry for people who don't see this and other 'human' elements of the baseball game. If you are just about the numbers, then a fantasy game on PlayStation would be as much fun for you as a day at US Cellular. :tongue:

TomBradley72
08-02-2010, 08:00 AM
The "stats" vs. "non-stats" argument is irrelevant when discussing Pierzynski's performance this season. He's been awful. I'm sick and tired of seeing him loaf down the first base line.

Bring in another veteran catcher and he'll be quickly forgotten by the pitching staff.

Couldn't disagree more.

His handling of Harrell on Friday night being a good example. AJ is definitely having a down year at the plate...but his positives still outweigh the negatives.

I'd have to see the specific veteran that would replace him before I could see the benefit....the fact that AJ has worked with this staff since 2005 is a real plus.

Rockin Robin
08-04-2010, 10:08 AM
Couldn't disagree more.

His handling of Harrell on Friday night being a good example. AJ is definitely having a down year at the plate...but his positives still outweigh the negatives.

I'd have to see the specific veteran that would replace him before I could see the benefit....the fact that AJ has worked with this staff since 2005 is a real plus.

This staff? Who? The 3 pitchers that are still here from 2005? What doest that matter? They're veterans, I think they'll be able to pick up the pieces and move on if need be.

Honestly, I'd rather see Castro as our everyday catcher than AJ throwing his bat like a toddler and stumbling down the first base line.

guillen4life13
08-04-2010, 12:36 PM
Keep the current pair at catcher but give a little more playing time to Castro. I'd like to see A.J. retire with the Sox and move into a coaching role, either in the minors or on Ozzie's bench. I see A.J. as the next manager of the White Sox, and I think he'd be damn good at it.

tm1119
08-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Ozzie's reasoning for leaving Kotsay in the lineup- He brings things to the table to that don't show up in a boxscore.

Hmm... That sounds a lot like a certain argument that I keep hearing. Seems like there's a big double standard here then.

WhiteSox5187
08-05-2010, 02:19 PM
Ozzie's reasoning for leaving Kotsay in the lineup- He brings things to the table to that don't show up in a boxscore.

Hmm... That sounds a lot like a certain argument that I keep hearing. Seems like there's a big double standard here then.

A catcher brings a hell of a lot more that doesn't show up in the box score than a DH. A catcher is a defense first position who needs to handle a pitching staff, if a guy can do that well he can hit .200 his whole career and always have a job.

cards press box
08-05-2010, 02:39 PM
The "stats" vs. "non-stats" argument is irrelevant when discussing Pierzynski's performance this season. He's been awful. I'm sick and tired of seeing him loaf down the first base line.

Bring in another veteran catcher and he'll be quickly forgotten by the pitching staff.

It is not a "stats v non-stats" argument. AJ greatly helps the pitching staff and that shows up in the pitchers' stats. Going into today, the Sox are 4th in the AL with a 3.88 ERA. AJ has done a fine job behind the plate.

Pablo_Honey
08-05-2010, 02:52 PM
It is not a "stats v non-stats" argument. AJ greatly helps the pitching staff and that shows up in the pitchers' stats. Going into today, the Sox are 4th in the AL with a 3.88 ERA. AJ has done a fine job behind the plate.
So, Coop had nothing to do with their success?

In all seriousness, catcher defense is probably one of the most difficult things to quantify, so non-stats guys will win the argument usually. Having said that, AJ's bat may be killing us but if he were batting 9th and the only guy hitting so badly, it would've been fine. Unfortunately, there's a certain someone who's doing just as badly at another position that makes AJ's downfall hurt even more.

tm1119
08-05-2010, 06:13 PM
It is not a "stats v non-stats" argument. AJ greatly helps the pitching staff and that shows up in the pitchers' stats. Going into today, the Sox are 4th in the AL with a 3.88 ERA. AJ has done a fine job behind the plate.

Our staff's ERA with AJ behind the plate- 3.81
Our staff's ERA with Castro behind the plate-3.84

Obviously a big difference in sample size, but you would think that since AJ is so great behind the plate that our staff's ERA would sky rocket as soon as he leaves from behind the plate. Castro has also thrown out a higher % of baserunners in his short amount of time behind the plate.

And no, im not going to let this argument go.

Daver
08-05-2010, 06:47 PM
And no, im not going to let this argument go.

You'll have to debate yourself, you refuse to acknowledge any point anyone makes that is not numerically backed, and I refuse to debate someone that can't comprehend the entire issue, and stats only give you 1/3 rd the story.

Alex Krycek
08-05-2010, 07:06 PM
AJ can't really hit anymore. At all. That is concerning, particularly considering the Sox will probably have offensive black holes at 3B, 1B, and DH next year.

WhiteSox5187
08-05-2010, 09:33 PM
AJ can't really hit anymore. At all. That is concerning, particularly considering the Sox will probably have offensive black holes at 3B, 1B, and DH next year.

You know he hit .300 last year, right?

Alex Krycek
08-07-2010, 01:57 AM
You know he hit .300 last year, right?

In the world of the 34-year-old catcher, one year is an eternity.

Even at his best, AJ had no patience and minimal power...his .300 average was as hollow as you get. You know that it's not the 80's anymore and batting average isn't the best way to measure offensive effectiveness, right?

voodoochile
08-07-2010, 02:45 AM
In the world of the 34-year-old catcher, one year is an eternity.

Even at his best, AJ had no patience and minimal power...his .300 average was as hollow as you get. You know that it's not the 80's anymore and batting average isn't the best way to measure offensive effectiveness, right?

Yes, but AJ doesn't only bring offense to the table. He's a team leader, a catcher who knows the pitching staff and the opponents batters and understands the game very well. If he can hit close to .300 and post an OPS in the low to mid .700's he's worth every penny.

Nellie_Fox
08-07-2010, 03:16 AM
Yes, but AJ doesn't only bring offense to the table. He's a team leader, a catcher who knows the pitching staff and the opponents batters and understands the game very well. If he can hit close to .300 and post an OPS in the low to mid .700's he's worth every penny.It amazes me that he gets no credit for how good Sox pitching has been. Putting down fingers is really the most important thing a catcher does. All the fantasy leaguers care about is offense.

southside rocks
08-07-2010, 08:55 AM
It amazes me that he gets no credit for how good Sox pitching has been. Putting down fingers is really the most important thing a catcher does. All the fantasy leaguers care about is offense.

Couldn't agree more.

For those who need it: a remedial description of the duties of the catcher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcher

SCCWS
08-07-2010, 09:51 AM
Our staff's ERA with AJ behind the plate- 3.81
Our staff's ERA with Castro behind the plate-3.84

Obviously a big difference in sample size, but you would think that since AJ is so great behind the plate that our staff's ERA would sky rocket as soon as he leaves from behind the plate. Castro has also thrown out a higher % of baserunners in his short amount of time behind the plate.

And no, im not going to let this argument go.

Another difference is that Castro does not catch every pitcher but is used selectively. Major difference you leave out is the wear and tear on the primary catcher. There are only 3 every-day catchers in AL hitting over .250

Jpgr91
08-07-2010, 12:31 PM
It amazes me that he gets no credit for how good Sox pitching has been. Putting down fingers is really the most important thing a catcher does. All the fantasy leaguers care about is offense.

Couldn't agree more.

For those who need it: a remedial description of the duties of the catcher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcher



Since AJ's arrival, the Sox team ERA compared to the league is as follows:

2010 9th
2009 7th
2008 11th
2007 25th
2006 21st
2005 3rd

If you are going to attribute the successes of Sox Pitching in part to AJ, he should also shoulder an equal amount of blame for the failures. In AJ's tenure with the Sox, the Sox average position in team ERA is 12.6. Perhaps some of AJ's intangible leadership qualities are a little bit overstated?

DirtySox
08-07-2010, 12:39 PM
Perhaps some of AJ's intangible leadership qualities are a little bit overstated?

They are supremely overstated around here. His intangibles currently aren't even close to outweighing his woeful offensive contributions.

I also wonder if any other team aside from the White Sox would be putting up with his petulant child act of bat slamming, helmet throwing, and overall pouting. Dude needs to grow up and act like a professional.

Alex Krycek
08-07-2010, 12:42 PM
Perhaps some of AJ's intangible leadership qualities are a little bit overstated?

What a surprise.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 12:43 PM
Since AJ's arrival, the Sox team ERA compared to the league is as follows:

2010 9th
2009 7th
2008 11th
2007 25th
2006 21st
2005 3rd

If you are going to attribute the successes of Sox Pitching in part to AJ, he should also shoulder an equal amount of blame for the failures. In AJ's tenure with the Sox, the Sox average position in team ERA is 12.6. Perhaps some of AJ's intangible leadership qualities are a little bit overstated?

I would have assumed by now we'd know that comparing ERA across both leagues gets skewed results since the Senior Circuit still has the antiquated notion of building an automatic out into its lineup.

Compared to the AL...

2010 - 4th
2009 - 2nd
2008 - 6th
2007 - 12th
2006 - 10th
2005 - 1st

Regardless of stats, a lot of the pitcher-catcher relationship does not ever show up in a box score. Considering the way our GM operates, I'm sure if enough members of the pitching staff complained about working with AJ, he'd have been gone already. The fact he has lasted this long with, more or less, a stable core of pitchers makes me believe they enjoy working with him. That's really enough for me. We can review this issue again in the off-season.

Jpgr91
08-07-2010, 12:48 PM
I would have assumed by now we'd know that comparing ERA across both leagues gets skewed results since the Senior Circuit still has the antiquated notion of building an automatic out into its lineup.

Compared to the AL...

2010 - 4th
2009 - 2nd
2008 - 6th
2007 - 12th
2006 - 10th
2005 - 1st

That translates to an average position of 6th. Again, still right in the middle of the pack.

doublem23
08-07-2010, 12:51 PM
That translates to an average position of 6th. Again, still right in the middle of the pack.

Yeah, but it ignores a lot of ****, like, oh, off the top of my head, quality of pitchers; I doubt Johnny Bench could have turned that putrid 2007 team into anything other than a bullpen full of crap.

Regardless, this is stupid way of ranking things anyway, mean and median aren't the same thing.

Jpgr91
08-07-2010, 12:59 PM
Yeah, but it ignores a lot of ****, like, oh, off the top of my head, quality of pitchers; I doubt Johnny Bench could have turned that putrid 2007 team into anything other than a bullpen full of crap.

Regardless, this is stupid way of ranking things anyway, mean and median aren't the same thing.

You are probably right about 2007. The same can be said about 2005 though. The Sox were so excelent that year I am pretty sure that any competent catcher would have gotten similar results. To me, if AJ was significantly better than most catchers at game/realationship management his pitching staffs would not suffer the same swings that most pitching staffs suffer.

southside rocks
08-07-2010, 03:54 PM
Yeah, but it ignores a lot of ****, like, oh, off the top of my head, quality of pitchers; I doubt Johnny Bench could have turned that putrid 2007 team into anything other than a bullpen full of crap.

Regardless, this is stupid way of ranking things anyway, mean and median aren't the same thing.

Yes.

Calling a good game does not mean that a catcher turns Joe Schmoe into Bob Gibson. Give me a break. It means that the catcher maximizes, on that given day, the strengths of his pitcher and the weaknesses of the other team's batters.

In order to hang the team ERA on the catcher, don't you have to consider what the ERA would have been with another catcher? Which really isn't possible, because another catcher didn't handle the staff for 140+ games each season.

There are some things about a player that the fans can just never know as well as the other players and the manager/coaches know, and not all the ways to categorize numbers will tell those things.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-07-2010, 04:04 PM
Have Castro split games with AJ the rest of the year... and see what happens. AJ does more for this club than bring offense (which is non-existent this year)... he manages the staff well and is good defensively (even though he can't get anyone at 2nd).

Frater Perdurabo
08-07-2010, 04:25 PM
Have Castro split games with AJ the rest of the year... and see what happens. AJ does more for this club than bring offense (which is non-existent this year)... he manages the staff well and is good defensively (even though he can't get anyone at 2nd).

I don't think they need to platoon.

However, I do think AJ is worn out.

I think it would help AJ if for the month of August the Sox let Castro start two out of ever five games. He's already the "designated catcher" for Garcia; he also could catch one of the other starters in addition to Garcia. Or he could catch for Garcia and also catch when the Sox face a lefty.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 04:37 PM
People also forget that AJ is 33. Catchers maintaining performance beyond that age is very, very rare. He will continue to slide downward, and fast.

asindc
08-07-2010, 04:44 PM
I was at last night's game and attended five other games earlier this year. It looks like the rapid decline has already begun. I hope Flowers can step in next year and at least platoon.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-07-2010, 04:52 PM
I don't think they need to platoon.

However, I do think AJ is worn out.

I think it would help AJ if for the month of August the Sox let Castro start two out of ever five games. He's already the "designated catcher" for Garcia; he also could catch one of the other starters in addition to Garcia. Or he could catch for Garcia and also catch when the Sox face a lefty.I wasn't thinking platoon, more like a try out. Maybe Castro has found something in his later years... he could be just a good hitter now. He seems to never come to the plate looking bad.

WhiteSox5187
08-07-2010, 06:59 PM
People also forget that AJ is 33. Catchers maintaining performance beyond that age is very, very rare. He will continue to slide downward, and fast.

Carlton Fisk had many productive years way past 33 by using a training program given to him by Herm Schneider. Fisk was obviously the exception to the rule, but it's not impossible for AJ to use that program and have a few more years of productivity. I remember seeing a post on here a long long time ago back in 2005 when AJ hit .257 that he was washed up and then the next year had one of his best years. I think AJ is on the downside of his career, but I think he has a couple of productive years left in him. Also given the fact that there is no one on the farm who can replace him, I think we should stick with him.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Carlton Fisk had many productive years way past 33 by using a training program given to him by Herm Schneider. Fisk was obviously the exception to the rule, but it's not impossible for AJ to use that program and have a few more years of productivity. I remember seeing a post on here a long long time ago back in 2005 when AJ hit .257 that he was washed up and then the next year had one of his best years. I think AJ is on the downside of his career, but I think he has a couple of productive years left in him. Also given the fact that there is no one on the farm who can replace him, I think we should stick with him.
Carlton Fisk is in the HOF. I don't think that's a relevant comparison.