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EMel9281
07-29-2010, 11:30 AM
Per Ken Rosenthal on Twitter...

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal

What mid-rotation guys are out there? Dave Bush comes to mind, but who else?

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 11:34 AM
Per Ken Rosenthal on Twitter...

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal

What mid-rotation guys are out there? Dave Bush comes to mind, but who else?

maybe Ted Lilly

DumpJerry
07-29-2010, 11:34 AM
KW's usual M.O.

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 11:35 AM
Good. I hope KW doesn't overpay on Dunn or for anyone else.

dwitt76
07-29-2010, 11:36 AM
maybe Ted Lilly

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:shakehead:

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 11:37 AM
Lucky for us, Freddy and Hudson going the next two nights.

It gives us a chance to see one more time if we are going to need another starter or not.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 11:37 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:shakehead:


Why not?

Lilly is better than both Freddy and Hudson.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 11:38 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:shakehead:


it was rumor last night that Lilly is close to being traded to the Sox.

Sargeant79
07-29-2010, 11:38 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:shakehead:


I don't see any problem with Lilly, depending on the price. As long as he doesn't cost much, he would be an ideal rental.

EMel9281
07-29-2010, 11:41 AM
maybe Ted Lilly

Simply put, no thanks.

Hits, homers, and walks per 9 are all up while K/9 is down. Plus, he's a Cub. Barf...

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 11:42 AM
Why not?

Lilly is better than both Freddy and Hudson.

Agreed. Outside of a couple bad starts, Lilly has been very good this year. He has only 3 wins this year becasue the Cubs well suck but his peripherals are all good. Yes he's a flyball pitcher and will likely give up some bombs, but he has a low whip and doesn't walk guys, so a lot of those home runs will be solo shots.

#1swisher
07-29-2010, 11:43 AM
it was rumor last night that Lilly is close to being traded to the Sox.

You got my attention...link?

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 11:45 AM
You got my attention...link?

http://twitter.com/blacknbluecity/status/19794461127

its WCIU Tv show. Hosted by Chet Coppock.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 11:45 AM
Simply put, no thanks.

Hits, homers, and walks per 9 are all up while K/9 is down. Plus, he's a Cub. Barf...

His walks and hits are down. He has a 1.14 whip for the year. Homers are up slightly and K/9 is down about .8 K/9. You make it sound like this guy has fallen off the map.

It's not like Wrigley is a pitcher's park.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 11:47 AM
Simply put, no thanks.

Hits, homers, and walks per 9 are all up while K/9 is down. Plus, he's a Cub. Barf...


Yeah, that should be taken into account :rolleyes:

EMel9281
07-29-2010, 11:47 AM
http://twitter.com/blacknbluecity/status/19794461127

its WCIU Tv show. Hosted by Chet Coppock.

A source isn't mentioned, just pure rumor. Again, pass.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 11:48 AM
A source isn't mentioned, just pure rumor. Again, pass.


one of their host said. According, to his sources its almost a done deal.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 11:50 AM
I like our chances vs the Twins with as many LH starting pitchers we can throw at them.

VeeckAsInWreck
07-29-2010, 11:50 AM
http://twitter.com/blacknbluecity/status/19794461127

its WCIU Tv show. Hosted by Chet Coppock.

I wouldn't take that at face value. Chet is great but he likes to reach out of his ass for attention.

RCWHITESOX
07-29-2010, 11:51 AM
Simply put, no thanks.

Hits, homers, and walks per 9 are all up while K/9 is down. Plus, he's a Cub. Barf...

I have to disagree. We would be lucky to get Lilly. He is a quality #3 starter who we could slot into the #4 slot. You can never have enough pitching. As for a hitter maybe we should take a look at Hawpe or Scott if the price is to high on Dunn or Fielder.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 11:51 AM
A source isn't mentioned, just pure rumor. Again, pass.


:?:

Aren't you the one who started this thread based on "pure rumor?"

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 11:51 AM
I like our chances vs the Twins with as many LH starting pitchers we can throw at them.

I totally agree with you.

Jimmy Piersall
07-29-2010, 11:52 AM
Anybody remember how Lilly did when he pitched in the big boy league ?

Red Barchetta
07-29-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't see any problem with Lilly, depending on the price. As long as he doesn't cost much, he would be an ideal rental.

I agree. I like the idea of going after the #2 or #3 guy on a non contending team. That's exactly where we should be looking considering our situation.

It would be great to move Linebrink or Kotsay as well to get another serviceable LH hitter as well.

We don't need a superstar trade, just a better option than what we have now.

EMel9281
07-29-2010, 11:52 AM
His walks and hits are down. He has a 1.14 whip for the year. Homers are up slightly and K/9 is down about .8 K/9. You make it sound like this guy has fallen off the map.

It's not like Wrigley is a pitcher's park.

He had one year of a sub 4 ERA in the AL, in 2002, when pitched for the Yankees and A's. I think that he is best suited for an NL team, not us.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 11:55 AM
Anybody remember how Lilly did when he pitched in the big boy league ?

I seem to remember how Lilly almost had a no hitter against us.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 11:55 AM
Anybody remember how Lilly did when he pitched in the big boy league ?

It's all about the price.

I think Lilly can be had for cheap. He would be a very nice fit as our #4.

soxpride724
07-29-2010, 11:56 AM
Anybody remember how Lilly did when he pitched in the big boy league ?

I do, so pass.

CHISOXFAN13
07-29-2010, 11:56 AM
He had one year of a sub 4 ERA in the AL, in 2002, when pitched for the Yankees and A's. I think that he is best suited for an NL team, not us.

You'd rather have Hudson right now than Lilly?

DumpJerry
07-29-2010, 11:57 AM
It's all about the price.

I think Lilly can be had for cheap. He would be a very nice fit as our #4.
Agreed. The Cubs are looking to dump payroll. A and AA prospects might be all it takes.

Coops4Aces
07-29-2010, 11:58 AM
Lilly vs AL this year (Angels, Rangers, Mariners and Sox)

4 games, 26.0 IP, 11 R, 9 ER, 3.12 ERA

khan
07-29-2010, 11:59 AM
Anybody remember how Lilly did when he pitched in the big boy league ?

Sure: Back in 2006, when Lilly was 30 years old and in his prime, his line was:
4.31 ERA, 181.2 IP, 179 H, 81 BB, 160 K, WHIP: 1.43.

In other words, he was "OK." Not great, and not terrible.


This year, vs. the Big Boy League, Lilly's line is: 3.12 ERA, 26 IP, 21 H, 7BB, 20K, and a sparkling 1.07 WHIP.


I don't see him as a lynchpin towards a World Series, but I could be wrong.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:00 PM
He had one year of a sub 4 ERA in the AL, in 2002, when pitched for the Yankees and A's. I think that he is best suited for an NL team, not us.


Pitching in the AL East and an ERA in the very low 4s for his career. That's a pretty damn good pitcher especially in the juiced ball/juiced player era.


You guys need to stop being blinded by your Cub hate.

EMel9281
07-29-2010, 12:03 PM
You'd rather have Hudson right now than Lilly?

Honestly, yes, I hate to bring 2005 up, but when El Duque went down, we had McCarthy. So, Peavy goes down, we have Hudson.

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
Honestly, yes, I hate to bring 2005 up, but when El Duque went down, we had McCarthy. So, Peavy goes down, we have Hudson.

Things that have nothing to do with each other.

kittle42
07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
I swear, Lilly is a middle of the rotation guy and nothing more, but some of you would write off friggin' Roy Halladay if he was a former Cub.

I hate the Cubs as much as the next sane guy, but don't be ridiculous.

kittle42
07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
Honestly, yes, I hate to bring 2005 up, but when El Duque went down, we had McCarthy. So, Peavy goes down, we have Hudson.

Yeah, parallel destiny.

Ugh.

SSrep
07-29-2010, 12:05 PM
Honestly, yes, I hate to bring 2005 up, but when El Duque went down, we had McCarthy. So, Peavy goes down, we have Hudson.

And were fortunate to hold on to that 15 game lead in 2005, barely

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:08 PM
If anything, grab Lilly so that the Twins or Tigers don't get him.

For some reason, Lilly makes us look like **** when we face him.

Or it might be that bad taste of that near no hitter on Sunday night.

guillensdisciple
07-29-2010, 12:10 PM
I'd take him.

Hudson does not seem fully ready to go yet.

SephClone89
07-29-2010, 12:12 PM
Honestly, yes, I hate to bring 2005 up, but when El Duque went down, we had McCarthy. So, Peavy goes down, we have Hudson.

...What the **** does that even mean?

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 12:13 PM
Carmona could be another pitcher the Sox are looking at.

Baron
07-29-2010, 12:13 PM
...What the **** does that even mean?

I have no idea either.....

SSrep
07-29-2010, 12:14 PM
...What the **** does that even mean?

Everything must follow the 2005 pattern for us to win

JB98
07-29-2010, 12:15 PM
I'd still much prefer a bat, but I'm not going to complain if the Sox add a middle-of-the-rotation starter at a low cost.

Hitmen77
07-29-2010, 12:18 PM
What type of free agent is Lilly expected to be? Type A or Type B?

Baron
07-29-2010, 12:19 PM
What type of free agent is Lilly expected to be? Type A or Type B?

He is a Type A

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 12:22 PM
If we are going to trade with the Cubs. Maybe the Sox can put a package together for Lilly and Colvin

Lillian
07-29-2010, 12:22 PM
The advantage of acquiring Lilly is that you can send Hudson back to AAA, and keep him there as insurance against one of the other starters getting hurt. Right now, if someone went on the DL, there is no back up.

I would hope that acquiring Lilly doesn't mean that Hudson is going to be traded.

SephClone89
07-29-2010, 12:23 PM
If we are going to trade with the Cubs. Maybe the Sox can put a package together for Lilly and Colvin

I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 12:23 PM
If we are going to trade with the Cubs. Maybe the Sox can put a package together for Lilly and Colvin
What for? Colvin's a fifth outfielder on a power spree.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 12:25 PM
What for? Colvin's a fifth outfielder on a power spree.

I think he has a good future ahead of him. I would rather have Colvin at bat then Kotsay

gosox3072
07-29-2010, 12:26 PM
Why would the cubs trade thier young talent?

infohawk
07-29-2010, 12:26 PM
Acquiring Lily would probably be done to not only give the Sox an experienced starter down the stretch, but to keep the Twins from gaining one in Lily. It would be a "double" move in that respect.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 12:31 PM
I think he has a good future ahead of him. I would rather have Colvin at bat then Kotsay
Duh. But why buy high on a kid who, in the long run, will probably suck. He is horrendous in the field and is unlikely to slug at a rate resembling this year's fluke.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 12:32 PM
If we are going to trade with the Cubs. Maybe the Sox can put a package together for Lilly and Colvin

Why would they give up Colvin?

Nelfox02
07-29-2010, 12:37 PM
I am all for bringing Lilly in.......I would rather see us add pitching than a hitter anyway....

Plus, if KW is able to get Lilly w/o giving up Hudson, is Hudson now expendable in a trade for a bat????

Not even sure if this is possible, but if we got Ted Lilly and a Luke Scott (maybe even Abreu now that he is reportedly available) and the only guy we gave up from the big club was Hudson along with prospects.......i would be pretty happy with something like that

kittle42
07-29-2010, 12:41 PM
If we are going to trade with the Cubs. Maybe the Sox can put a package together for Lilly and Colvin

Come on now. Why in the bloody blue hell would the Cubs even *think* about trading Colvin? Unless, of course, we gave them Beckham and Hudson.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Carmona could be another pitcher the Sox are looking at.

I don't see it happening. Reports are that Cle is listening to offers but needs to be "blown away" and is not desperate to trade him. Also, Sox would have to pay a premium for being in the division. I think you'd probably be looking like a Hudson plus a prospect package to get this done...not wroth it for me.

Baron
07-29-2010, 12:46 PM
So guys 670 the score read from a Toronto newspaper that the White Sox scouts were at the Blue Jays vs Orioles game last night


Now both those teams have a few players that could be traded.

Hitmen77
07-29-2010, 12:54 PM
Agreed. The Cubs are looking to dump payroll. A and AA prospects might be all it takes.

Are they? I don't remember the Cubs looking to dump payroll in recent years. Even with their bloated contracts, you'd think they're still making money as the sheep keep filling Wrigley Field.

jcw218
07-29-2010, 12:55 PM
So guys 670 the score read from a Toronto newspaper that the White Sox scouts were at the Blue Jays vs Orioles game last night


Now both those teams have a few players that could be traded.

While that is true, these scouts could have been advance scouts sent to gather info on the Orioles for the upcoming series Aug 6-9

russ99
07-29-2010, 12:59 PM
These "Sox dump overpriced players who aren't performing for Cubs assets" suggestions kill me.

The Cubs want prospects just like everyone else. I don't remember Jim Hendry turning into a complete idiot overnight.

If we'd make a deal for Lilly (which isn't a good idea since he's a flyball pitcher) then we'd have to offer prospects or young players in return, and I doubt the Cubs would trade someone like Colvin...

BTW - for future reference, Kotsay, Teahen or Linebrink aren't trade chips, and nobody wants them unless we eat significant salary.

Back in reality-land, I wonder if the Sox would have interest in Aramis Ramirez to add the power bat and solid 3B (when healthy) to the lineup.

cburns
07-29-2010, 01:01 PM
I just don't see any way Hudson is traded for a bat unless the Sox have a deal in place for another pitcher. I'm very wary of trading Hudson with the amount of money that will be due to Danks and Peavy in the future. Unless the Sox can significantly raise payroll to pay everybody, they are going to need a cheap player who is under contract for a while.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 01:07 PM
Dan Bernstein says he has heard. That the Sox are talking about a few big trades for star players.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 01:08 PM
Why would they give up Colvin?

just my wish to get a good young lefty bat in our lineup

kittle42
07-29-2010, 01:08 PM
Dan Bernstein says he has heard. That the Sox are talking about a few big trades for star players.

This is news.

oeo
07-29-2010, 01:10 PM
Dan Bernstein says he has heard. That the Sox are talking about a few big trades for star players.

Easiest job in the world, people.

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 01:13 PM
These "Sox dump overpriced players who aren't performing for Cubs assets" suggestions kill me.

The Cubs want prospects just like everyone else. I don't remember Jim Hendry turning into a complete idiot overnight.

If we'd make a deal for Lilly (which isn't a good idea since he's a flyball pitcher) then we'd have to offer prospects or young players in return, and I doubt the Cubs would trade someone like Colvin...

BTW - for future reference, Kotsay, Teahen or Linebrink aren't trade chips, and nobody wants them unless we eat significant salary.

Back in reality-land, I wonder if the Sox would have interest in Aramis Ramirez to add the power bat and solid 3B (when healthy) to the lineup.

He is one of the worst GMs in baseball. He fleeced the Pirates once, that's about it.

kittle42
07-29-2010, 01:15 PM
He is one of the worst GMs in baseball. He fleeced the Pirates once, that's about it.

And the Marlins once.

I wouldn't say he's one of the worst, but he really has ridden the wave from those two steals. He hasn't done much else since. Lilly was a good pickup. Byrd looks like he might be a bargain signing for a few years.

Dibbs
07-29-2010, 01:16 PM
I would take Lilly and any serviceable hitter. No need to unload any remaining prospects on Dunn or Fielder if we are going to have to overpay.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2010, 01:16 PM
He is one of the worst GMs in baseball. He fleeced the Pirates once, that's about it.

He's a complete moron when it comes to free agents, but he's pretty successful when it comes to trades. Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi comes to mind.

october23sp
07-29-2010, 01:17 PM
Kenny does the same thing every year, it's awesome.


Beginning-Middle of trade deadline week: "No deals happenin'."

Mid-Late: Rumblings

Late-Last second: "We got a star."

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 01:17 PM
And the Marlins once.

I wouldn't say he's one of the worst, but he really has ridden the wave from those two steals. He hasn't done much else since. Lilly was a good pickup. Byrd looks like he might be a bargain signing for a few years.

He paid a lot of money for Lilly at the time, though. That was the year they seemed to be handing out contracts to everybody.

Byrd has been a good signing, yes.

dickallen15
07-29-2010, 01:23 PM
Dan Bernstein says he has heard. That the Sox are talking about a few big trades for star players.

If Dan Bernstein called into the Boers and Bernstein show, B & B would roast and make fun of him. He really is an odd guy who could actually be a pretty good host if he wanted, but thinks he's smarter than he is and mails it in a lot of the time.

MisterB
07-29-2010, 01:34 PM
Kenny does the same thing every year, it's awesome.


Beginning-Middle of trade deadline week: "No deals happenin'."

Mid-Late: Rumblings

Late-Last second: "We got a star."
http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/OMU/OMU110/21P0102.jpg <--RADAR

V
:KW <--Kenny Williams

ndgt10
07-29-2010, 01:35 PM
If Dan Bernstein called into the Boers and Bernstein show, B & B would roast and make fun of him. He really is an odd guy who could actually be a pretty good host if he wanted, but thinks he's smarter than he is and mails it in a lot of the time.

Whenever I listen to that show they always make fun of the caller. Pretty classless.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 01:38 PM
Whenever I listen to that show they always make fun of the caller. Pretty classless.

Grown men calling radio shows deserve to be made fun at.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 01:40 PM
He's a complete moron when it comes to free agents, but he's pretty successful when it comes to trades.

I agree with this. Though, I can't blame him too much for overpaying for guys like Kosuke and Soriano, in 2008, they probably had one of the 2-3 best teams in baseball that just got cold at the worst possible time, but when you're running a team on a 100-year-plus championship drought, sometimes you have to push the chips all in.

He's ****ed now, though, because of those deals. But, thank god this didn't happen, if the Cubs had won the World Series in 2007 or 2008, I think most Cub fans would have been able to live with the wretched state their team is in.

That said, Lilly for nothing, please.

SI1020
07-29-2010, 01:43 PM
I'd take him.

Hudson does not seem fully ready to go yet. I'm not sure that he ever will be.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 01:50 PM
I'm not sure that he ever will be.

And you're basing this on what, the whole 34 innings of Major League experience he has under his belt in the last 2 seasons?

John Danks was hot garbage for quite a bit of his rookie season. Sometimes it takes guys a little while to figure out how to effectively pitch to Major League quality hitters. You can't get away with all the tricks you used in the minors.

LongLiveFisk
07-29-2010, 01:57 PM
I'm not sure that he ever will be.

And you're basing this on what, the whole 34 innings of Major League experience he has under his belt in the last 2 seasons?

John Danks was hot garbage for quite a bit of his rookie season. Sometimes it takes guys a little while to figure out how to effectively pitch to Major League quality hitters. You can't get away with all the tricks you used in the minors.

And as I recall, Buehrle struggled quite a bit when he first came up as well. I don't have any specific stats to refer to, just my own memory.

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 02:00 PM
And as I recall, Buehrle struggled quite a bit when he first came up as well. I don't have any specific stats to refer to, just my own memory.

Yep. Most young pitchers struggle. Growing pains and such. Very few pitchers show up on the scene and dominate from the get go. Especially those of the non-elite variety. Giving up on Hudson already is very silly.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Whenever I listen to that show they always make fun of the caller. Pretty classless.

Have you heard some of their callers? More times than not they deserve it.

Some guy actually called in yesterday saying that the Sox should sign Dmitri Young!

This after other callers were arguing that Juan Pierre is better than Adam Dunn.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 02:01 PM
And as I recall, Buehrle struggled quite a bit when he first came up as well. I don't have any specific stats to refer to, just my own memory.
You are right. I looked up the game log for Mark in 2000 and he got shelled pretty hard for the first few outings and then he settled down nicely in the pen.

I'd give Hudson at least a full season of work before calling him a bust. He looks like he could be a contributor to the Sox in the future, which is quite a rarity for a Sox farmhand.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2010, 02:03 PM
Dan Bernstein says he has heard. That the Sox are talking about a few big trades for star players.

Pujols, Lincecum, Hanley, Felix, and Greinke.

In that order, please.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:10 PM
And you're basing this on what, the whole 34 innings of Major League experience he has under his belt in the last 2 seasons?

John Danks was hot garbage for quite a bit of his rookie season. Sometimes it takes guys a little while to figure out how to effectively pitch to Major League quality hitters. You can't get away with all the tricks you used in the minors.

It's not like Hudson is a stud prospect lighting up rankings. He's a far cry from a sure thing, and plenty of scouts don't think much of him.

Danks is a completely different case. He was a stud prospect with a higher ceiling.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2010, 02:11 PM
Have you heard some of their callers? More times than not they deserve it.

Some people are idiots. Many of those idiots call in to radio shows. Doesn't mean that they deserve a public berating. Chris Rongey listens to stupid comments/suggestions nearly every day, and yet he doesn't feel the need to make an example out of the people making them.

Dick Allen
07-29-2010, 02:13 PM
It's not like Hudson is a stud prospect lighting up rankings. He's a far cry from a sure thing, and plenty of scouts don't think much of him.

Danks is a completely different case. He was a stud prospect with a higher ceiling.Danks was the #1 rated prospect in the Rangers' system when the Sox got him. I was really surprised they were able to get him relatively cheaply, no disrespect intended to Brandon McCarthy.

Harry Chappas
07-29-2010, 02:13 PM
Have you heard some of their callers? More times than not they deserve it.

Some guy actually called in yesterday saying that the Sox should sign Dmitri Young!

This after other callers were arguing that Juan Pierre is better than Adam Dunn.

I heard that. I was so happy Berstein abused that guy. That's what makes their show interesting - their willingness to call someone out for being dumb.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 02:14 PM
It's not like Hudson is a stud prospect lighting up rankings. He's a far cry from a sure thing, and plenty of scouts don't think much of him.
True, but Hudson's maintained nice K/BB ratio down in the minors so he must be doing something right at least. Even if he turns out to be a #3 at best, that's a whole lot better than any other Sox prospects whose ceilings are backend starters or middle relievers. I'd move him if the price was right but I wouldn't be terribly upset if we kept him either.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:21 PM
Danks was the #1 rated prospect in the Rangers' system when the Sox got him. I was really surprised they were able to get him relatively cheaply, no disrespect intended to Brandon McCarthy.

Yeah, and while lots of people here were appalled about losing McCarthy, I was lauding the deal. There's a difference between a young guy who's been successful in the minors with a middle to low ceiling and a top prospect guy, who might not have had success, with a high ceiling. Give me the high ceiling any day. Look what happened with McCarthy...and HE graded higher as a prospect than the infallible Dan Hudson.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:21 PM
True, but Hudson's maintained nice K/BB ratio down in the minors so he must be doing something right at least. Even if he turns out to be a #3 at best, that's a whole lot better than any other Sox prospects whose ceilings are backend starters or middle relievers. I'd move him if the price was right but I wouldn't be terribly upset if we kept him either.

I think Hudson will stick in the majors for a while, but I don't see his ceiling as anything more than a 5 or a longman. That's just my opinion.

Hitmen77
07-29-2010, 02:36 PM
Yep. Most young pitchers struggle. Growing pains and such. Very few pitchers show up on the scene and dominate from the get go. Especially those of the non-elite variety. Giving up on Hudson already is very silly.

:welcome:

If I have learned anything here from some people it's that anyone who doesn't perform immediately upon coming up is garbage who has no hope of ever improving. This is especially true of players who aren't pegged by scouts to be a solid major league player. Apparently, the only players who ever succeed in MLB are the ones that were highly rated by the experts in amateur drafts.

......oh and I have also learned that having the potential to be only a #3 starter is practically useless. If he doesn't have a ceiling to be an ace, then he'll never be an important part of this team in the future.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 02:38 PM
It's not like Hudson is a stud prospect lighting up rankings. He's a far cry from a sure thing, and plenty of scouts don't think much of him.

Danks is a completely different case. He was a stud prospect with a higher ceiling.

You still don't strike out 12 batters per 9 innings without, at the very least, knowing where the strike zone is and how to get the ball there. Hudson's no Danks, but I think it's still pretty well regarded that he has all the skills to be a middle of the rotation kind of guy. That would make him, what? One of the Top 50 pitchers in the game? I could deal with that.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:41 PM
:welcome:

If I have learned anything here from some people it's that anyone who doesn't perform immediately upon coming up is garbage who has no hope of ever improving. This is especially true of players who aren't pegged by scouts to be a solid major league player. Apparently, the only players who ever succeed in MLB are the ones that were highly rated by the experts in amateur drafts.

......oh and I have also learned that having the potential to be only a #3 starter is practically useless. If he doesn't have a ceiling to be an ace, then he'll never be an important part of this team in the future.

That's what the optimistic scouts are saying. Some people thinking that's his ceiling doesn't mean all people think that's his ceiling. Some people think his ceiling doesn't put him in a rotation. It's unfair to take your perspective on his talent and use it as the base for where other people view his ceiling. If I thought Hudson had 3 potential, I'd be higher on him. I do not.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 02:44 PM
I just want to point out that being willing to trade Hudson for a guy that will hit 40 HR a year, isn't the same as "giving up" on Hudson. I don't think anyone is saying Hudson will never amount to anything based on three mediocre to poor starts this year (although some are less confident than others). It's not like those that are ok trading Hudson for top talent are saying drop him for a mediocre player. Yes, Dunn is a rental, but he's a rental that can win you a World Series.

I also don't think that saying we need to trade for a proven 3rd or 4th starter since Hudson isn't ready are giving up on him either. If not for the Peavy injury, Hudson would still be in the minors, so even the White Sox didn't think the kid was ready. He will likely be good in time, but the Sox window to win also won't last forever.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:47 PM
You still don't strike out 12 batters per 9 innings without, at the very least, knowing where the strike zone is and how to get the ball there. Hudson's no Danks, but I think it's still pretty well regarded that he has all the skills to be a middle of the rotation kind of guy. That would make him, what? One of the Top 50 pitchers in the game? I could deal with that.

I can think of at least one ESPN scout who disagrees with that, but we know what everyone thinks of him...

But...I don't think that's well regarded outside of Chicago. I know I don't see him that way. :shrug:

Coops4Aces
07-29-2010, 02:48 PM
I can think of at least one ESPN scout who disagrees with that, but we know what everyone thinks of him...

But...I don't think that's well regarded outside of Chicago. I know I don't see him that way. :shrug:

Keith Law? :rolleyes:

dickallen15
07-29-2010, 02:48 PM
I can think of at least one ESPN scout who disagrees with that, but we know what everyone thinks of him...

But...I don't think that's well regarded outside of Chicago. I know I don't see him that way. :shrug:
The same ESPN scout also said Gavin Floyd was garbage.

PalehosePlanet
07-29-2010, 02:49 PM
I think Hudson will stick in the majors for a while, but I don't see his ceiling as anything more than a 5 or a longman. That's just my opinion.

And my opinion is that it's a matter of when, not if, for Hudson. My guess is that he starts turning the corner sometime after the break next year.

We'll check back again in five years. IIRC, you thought Gavin sucked too back in '07.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:49 PM
The same ESPN scout also said Gavin Floyd was garbage.

Well, for a while he was. :tongue:

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:51 PM
And my opinion is that it's a matter of when, not if, for Hudson. My guess is that he starts turning the corner sometime after the break next year.

We'll check back again in five years. IIRC, you thought Gavin sucked too back in '07.

Yes. And I loved it when he was traded here. Gavin was obviously hurt when he came over. He did not have the same curveball that made him a top prospect. He got better.

How does that relate to Hudson? Is he going to throw better pitches without precedent? I'd like that very much, but I'm not sure it's very likely.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 02:58 PM
Keith Law? :rolleyes:

Yeah, who cares what that ******* thinks? BTW, guys are "ESPN scouts" because Major League teams think they're idiots.

PalehosePlanet
07-29-2010, 03:03 PM
Yes. And I loved it when he was traded here. Gavin was obviously hurt when he came over. He did not have the same curveball that made him a top prospect. He got better.

How does that relate to Hudson? Is he going to throw better pitches without precedent? I'd like that very much, but I'm not sure it's very likely.

It relates only in the way that your opinion of him was wrong. (Also?)

Hudson has excellent movement on his fast ball and he generally keeps it down. His change-up is very good already. When he gains more consistent command of his breaking pitches, and learns to also change speeds off his breaking pitches, he will be very successful.

I'm bewildered by the fact that you think he's a five/swingman type.

Baron
07-29-2010, 03:05 PM
Buster says on twitter that the Sox have been very aggressive going after Dunn but he doesnt think they have the ammo to get him.Says he thinks the Rays or Yankees have a better chance

ndgt10
07-29-2010, 03:09 PM
Buster says on twitter that the Sox have been very aggressive going after Dunn but he doesnt think they have the ammo to get him.Says he thinks the Rays or Yankees have a better chance

Lol how ridiculous would the skanks be if they got him? The Sox might as well hang it up for the season because they would have no chance.

Baron
07-29-2010, 03:09 PM
Buster just reported that internally The Sox are saying that they are OUT of the mix for Dunn

Buster_ESPN

Heard this: The White Sox are saying internally that they are currently out of the mix on Dunn.

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 03:09 PM
Speaking of the Rays, Hellickson was abruptly pulled today in his AAA start, and it wasn't injury related. Many people are finding this odd. He could be moved soon, or more likely Wade Davis is traded with Hellickson assuming his spot in the rotation.

PalehosePlanet
07-29-2010, 03:12 PM
Buster says on twitter that the Sox have been very aggressive going after Dunn but he doesnt think they have the ammo to get him.Says he thinks the Rays or Yankees have a better chance

I'm fine with this. The little bit that we do have, we shouldn't throw away on a player for two months. A butcher who's offended at the thought of DH'ing, no less.

Go after someone cheaper that can still help us and won't cost us our best prospects.

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 03:13 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
Heard this: The White Sox are saying internally that they are currently out of the mix on Dunn. 4 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19851753286) via web

Huzzah!

PalehosePlanet
07-29-2010, 03:16 PM
Speaking of the Rays, Hellickson was abruptly pulled today in his AAA start, and it wasn't injury related. Many people are finding this odd. He could be moved soon, or more likely Wade Davis is traded with Hellickson assuming his spot in the rotation.

If the Nats can get Hellickson or Davis for Dunn, then they should definitely jump at the chance. Unless The Yankees get into a pissing contest with The Rays for Dunn and offer Montero, I can't see anyone offering anything better.

oeo
07-29-2010, 03:17 PM
Lol how ridiculous would the skanks be if they got him? The Sox might as well hang it up for the season because they would have no chance.

I think they're going to need a starting pitcher down the stretch way more than Adam Dunn. Lot of load on CC, Burnett, and Pettitte from last year. Recent history shows that catches up to guys the following year.

Baron
07-29-2010, 03:18 PM
Lol how ridiculous would the skanks be if they got him? The Sox might as well hang it up for the season because they would have no chance.

I would absolutely hate that

hi im skot
07-29-2010, 03:22 PM
Lol how ridiculous would the skanks be if they got him? The Sox might as well hang it up for the season because they would have no chance.

Yeah, ever since they started playing games on paper, the Sox have really struggled.

twsoxfan5
07-29-2010, 03:23 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
Heard this: The White Sox are saying internally that they are currently out of the mix on Dunn. 4 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19851753286) via web

Huzzah!

Good. It sounds like this is starting to become a bidding war and I don't want to give the Nats more than he is worth just to beat out another team for a 2 month rental.

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 03:30 PM
Yeah, ever since they started playing games on paper, the Sox have really struggled.
bingo
the mother****in white sox are gonna bow down to the jankees?
i dont see it

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 03:33 PM
That's fine. Get someone else.

Randar68
07-29-2010, 03:33 PM
so plan B guys are in? Looks like Dunn and Fielder prices too high. Who is next?

Kill 2 birds with one stone? Guthrie + Scott?

DSpivack
07-29-2010, 03:34 PM
Supposedly the Yankees are out on Dunn, as well.

getonbckthr
07-29-2010, 03:40 PM
Luke Scott and Brian Roberts for Beckham and a prospect...who hangs up first?

SSrep
07-29-2010, 03:41 PM
Luke Scott and Brian Roberts for Beckham and a prospect...who hangs up first?

teal?

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 03:43 PM
Luke Scott and Brian Roberts for Beckham and a prospect...who hangs up first?

Brian Roberts? Really?

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 03:43 PM
Luke Scott and Brian Roberts for Beckham and a prospect...who hangs up first?
damn thatd be a ridic trade w.o messing up our double team tandem
but nix it b/c Kenny tells baltimore gm to kiss the ring and offers no big league players

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 03:44 PM
also apparently the phillies are waiting on roy oswalt to say yes, and then they have him.........idk if those goes here sorry in advance if it does

eriqjaffe
07-29-2010, 03:52 PM
Supposedly the Yankees are out on Dunn, as well.So the Sox's pursuit of Dunn is Oveur? I guess all the packages they could put together were Ungerwhemling.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 03:55 PM
also apparently the phillies are waiting on roy oswalt to say yes, and then they have him.........idk if those goes here sorry in advance if it does

Oswalt deal is done. In fact, Astros have already traded one of the prospects from that deal for Brett Wallace from the Blue Jays organization.

Randar68
07-29-2010, 03:57 PM
Luke Scott and Brian Roberts for Beckham and a prospect...who hangs up first?

BTW, I am not advocating Luke Scott in any way. His Home/Road splits this year are just stoopid and I don't think he's anything but a younger Kotsay. That's just making a deal to make a deal, IMO.

ZombieRob
07-29-2010, 04:00 PM
I still have a feeling K.W pulls of Berkman. With the Astros eating some salary.
All this talk of Fielder and Dunn and Berkman. is ahem ( Under the Radar).

I think Fat Elvis better even at this point in his Career than both the of them.

canOcorn
07-29-2010, 04:01 PM
Oswalt deal is done. In fact, Astros have already traded one of the prospects from that deal for Brett Wallace from the Blue Jays organization.

Berkman's replacement? I don't get that trade from Toronto's perspective.

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 04:02 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Source: Berkman "in play," discussions taking place. Deal far from guaranteed. Berkman, like Oswalt, has full no-trade. #Astros (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Astros) #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB)

ZombieRob
07-29-2010, 04:04 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Source: Berkman "in play," discussions taking place. Deal far from guaranteed. Berkman, like Oswalt, has full no-trade. #Astros (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Astros) #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB)


I'm hoping he lifts it. K.W has had good success with players lifting their NTC.

getonbckthr
07-29-2010, 04:05 PM
Hanley Ramirez for Alexei, Viciedo and Jordan Danks? Just my head wandering...

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 04:05 PM
Hanley Ramirez for Alexei, Viciedo and Jordan Danks? Just my head wandering...

No.

SephClone89
07-29-2010, 04:06 PM
Hanley Ramirez for Alexei, Viciedo and Jordan Danks? Just my head wandering...

lol

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 04:06 PM
Hanley Ramirez for Alexei, Viciedo and Jordan Danks? Just my head wandering...

That would be half of the deal if we were lucky.

dickallen15
07-29-2010, 04:07 PM
Heard this:

I'm sick of reading Buster's tweets and messages because they always start with "Heard this:"

TheOldRoman
07-29-2010, 04:08 PM
Hanley Ramirez for Alexei, Viciedo and Jordan Danks? Just my head wandering...Neither team would do that deal.

getonbckthr
07-29-2010, 04:09 PM
Neither team would do that deal.
Thats the first time i've gotten that response to one of my "eklund-esque" proposals. Haha.:D:

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 04:09 PM
Berkman's replacement? I don't get that trade from Toronto's perspective.

I think that's the speculation...They have to be shopping Berkman now. I think from Toronto's vantage, word is Gose has more upside but is further away, so maybe they see something in him.

russ99
07-29-2010, 04:10 PM
I'm hoping he lifts it. K.W has had good success with players lifting their NTC.

Again, the problem with Berkman is the huge option for next year. Nobody in their right mind would pick it up, but he may want that in order to waive the NTC.

getonbckthr
07-29-2010, 04:10 PM
Sox are getting Dunn. I find it ironic how hours after the Yankees are of it for Dunn the Sox are. I think Kenny is trying to lower the demands.

getonbckthr
07-29-2010, 04:11 PM
Again, the problem with Berkman is the huge option for next year. Nobody in their right mind would pick it up, but he may want that in order to waive the NTC.
I understand that mindset from a player but at point do you decide its time to abandon a sinking, possible already sunken ship?

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 04:11 PM
Sox are getting Dunn. I find it ironic how hours after the Yankees are of i for Dunn the Sox are. I think Kenny is trying to lower the demands.

I think Dunn goes to Tampa for Wade Davis. /speculation

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Again, Rizzo doesn't have to deal Dunn. He's not going to be strong-armed into giving up his best trade chip for a pittance.

ZombieRob
07-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Again, the problem with Berkman is the huge option for next year. Nobody in their right mind would pick it up, but he may want that in order to waive the NTC.
Is signing Jenks and Konerko an automatic next year? If not, good fall back plan. J.R said he would increase payroll if certain things fell into place.

Randar68
07-29-2010, 04:18 PM
Is signing Jenks and Konerko an automatic next year? If not, good fall back plan. J.R said he would increase payroll if certain things fell into place.

$15M team option and 2M buyout. Pretty crazy money considering the 1B on the market this off-season.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 04:21 PM
I'm really not a big Berkman fan at this point in his career. Luke Scott or even Abreu have more appeal to me at this point.

eriqjaffe
07-29-2010, 04:22 PM
Is signing Jenks and Konerko an automatic next year? If not, good fall back plan. J.R said he would increase payroll if certain things fell into place.Jenks is under team control, as he's still in his arbitration years. Assuming the Sox intend to keep him around, he'll probably sign a 1-year deal in the off-season. Paulie will be a FA after his year unless the Sox extend him.

Rudy Law
07-29-2010, 04:22 PM
Simply put, no thanks.

Hits, homers, and walks per 9 are all up while K/9 is down. Plus, he's a Cub. Barf...

What does his being a Cub have to do at all with his ability as a pitcher?.... If you ask me he would be a pretty decent 5th starter.... Lets slow down with the Cub hate and keep it in the context it belongs...

ZombieRob
07-29-2010, 04:23 PM
$15M team option and 2M buyout. Pretty crazy money considering the 1B on the market this off-season.
True, But he'll be under the Sox control if something doesn't pan out they way they want it. This guy is no slouch defensively either. and the A.L IMO is still a left hand hitters league.

voodoochile
07-29-2010, 04:27 PM
Again, Rizzo doesn't have to deal Dunn. He's not going to be strong-armed into giving up his best trade chip for a pittance.

His best trade chip becomes a pittance in like 55 hours...

Randar68
07-29-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm really not a big Berkman fan at this point in his career. Luke Scott or even Abreu have more appeal to me at this point.

Berkman, if healthy, is so vastly superior to Luke Scott, I dunno where to begin. Abreu is probably the best option for what this team needs as he can hit in the #2 hole.

Luke Scott is an abomination and a result of being a LH hitter at Camden. Home/Road splits are ridonkulous and if he hit for his road splits at US Cellular, he'd be no real improvment over Kotsay.

Randar68
07-29-2010, 04:29 PM
His best trade chip becomes a pittance in like 55 hours...

He becomes 2 draft picks is what he becomes. Not the worst thing in the world for a rebuilding club.

DSpivack
07-29-2010, 04:30 PM
Berkman is having a bad year and has a very expensive contract, why are so many clamoring for him?

Ditka v. God
07-29-2010, 04:35 PM
What about Adam LaRoche? He was on everyone's radar a week or so ago, I'm surprised he's not even being mentioned now. I'd pass on Scott, too streaky.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 04:36 PM
Berkman, if healthy, is so vastly superior to Luke Scott, I dunno where to begin. Abreu is probably the best option for what this team needs as he can hit in the #2 hole.

Luke Scott is an abomination and a result of being a LH hitter at Camden. Home/Road splits are ridonkulous and if he hit for his road splits at US Cellular, he'd be no real improvment over Kotsay.

Berkman is not healthy, and may never be again. He's a shell of his former self.

DirtySox
07-29-2010, 04:40 PM
What about Adam LaRoche? He was on everyone's radar a week or so ago.

Still want.

kittle42
07-29-2010, 04:41 PM
So the Sox's pursuit of Dunn is Oveur? I guess all the packages they could put together were Ungerwhemling.

Love it.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 04:44 PM
His best trade chip becomes a pittance in like 55 hours...
Two draft picks might be better than what we're offering.

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 05:00 PM
What does his being a Cub have to do at all with his ability as a pitcher?.... If you ask me he would be a pretty decent 5th starter.... Lets slow down with the Cub hate and keep it in the context it belongs...
lilly is a good NL pitcher
AL i dont think he could handle every 5th day

kittle42
07-29-2010, 05:03 PM
lilly is a good NL pitcher
AL i dont think he could handle every 5th day

Yeah, because his entire time in the AL was just a nightmare.

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 05:15 PM
Yeah, because his entire time in the AL was just a nightmare.
idk what the teal text is for but when was the last time he pitched for an AL club? And what were his numbers?
b/c he's been with the cubs what 4 years now?

ZombieRob
07-29-2010, 05:18 PM
idk what the teal text is for but when was the last time he pitched for an AL club? And what were his numbers?
b/c he's been with the cubs what 4 years now?
Lilly was a solid #3-4 guy with the Yankees and Blue Jays. IIRC was an all star in the A.L once as well as N.L

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 05:21 PM
Lilly was a solid #3-4 guy with the Yankees and Blue Jays. IIRC was an all star in the A.L once as well as N.L
ahhh
he last pitched in the AL 4 years ago and that season you're talking about was 8 years ago.
Although last year he had his best ERA+ of 145 and a 1.056 WHIP, i just dont trust him for the sox down the stretch

munchman33
07-29-2010, 05:39 PM
ahhh
he last pitched in the AL 4 years ago and that season you're talking about was 8 years ago.
Although last year he had his best ERA+ of 145 and a 1.056 WHIP, i just dont trust him for the sox down the stretch

Didn't Lilly also learn a new pitch when he moved to the NL?

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 05:44 PM
Didn't Lilly also learn a new pitch when he moved to the NL?
yea but the AL and NL are two different animals. **** if we end up getting lilly i would love for him to prove me wrong, i just dont think he's cut out for it

munchman33
07-29-2010, 05:46 PM
yea but the AL and NL are two different animals. **** if we end up getting lilly i would love for him to prove me wrong, i just dont think he's cut out for it

He was a middle of the rotation guy in the AL, certainly was better in the NL. Sure he's aged, but he's also a different pitcher than he was back in his AL days. I think he'd be fine, if only his first time around (which he'd pretty much only be getting).

ghostface36
07-29-2010, 05:53 PM
He was a middle of the rotation guy in the AL, certainly was better in the NL. Sure he's aged, but he's also a different pitcher than he was back in his AL days. I think he'd be fine, if only his first time around (which he'd pretty much only be getting).
fair enough my friend, agree to disagree

munchman33
07-29-2010, 05:55 PM
Sox looking to Berkman now, according to Buster Olney (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19860516073)

ZombieRob
07-29-2010, 06:04 PM
I like it :smile:

SI1020
07-31-2010, 03:45 PM
And you're basing this on what, the whole 34 innings of Major League experience he has under his belt in the last 2 seasons?

John Danks was hot garbage for quite a bit of his rookie season. Sometimes it takes guys a little while to figure out how to effectively pitch to Major League quality hitters. You can't get away with all the tricks you used in the minors. I live in Minor League land and have tried over the years to see as many games and prospects as possible. Hudson leaves me quite underwhelmed. In fairness so did Gavin Floyd, although I will take some credit for being ahead of the curve on Danks. It's all a moot point now that Hudson is gone, but I post this because lately it's what do you know (I'm speaking in general terms) around here. I try as best I can within the limits of whatever baseball brain power I have to give honest assessments.