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View Full Version : Don Cooper calls Strasburg the next Kerry Wood


Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 12:20 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/white_sox_pitching_coach_strasburg_VGtdBzYO4ruvngT MzC70cP?sms_ss=twitter

g0g0
07-29-2010, 12:26 PM
This would crush that franchise. I know how hard it was to take with Wood/Prior on the north side. This kid has been hyped as the second coming.

HomeFish
07-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.

SephClone89
07-29-2010, 12:30 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.

:dtroll:

DumpJerry
07-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.
:rolleyes: Really now.

So if a reporter asks Coop about a pitcher from another team, he should say "I can't comment on it. My pitchers are really, really, bad right now and I need to fix 'em."?

One bad outing and Garcia is ready for the trash heap.

But you are right, the Sox' pitching staff is "faltering" which is amazing since they have the best record in all of MLB since June 8th. Yeah, June 8th which is almost two months ago.

hawkjt
07-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Coop knows pitching mechanics. Maybe he is laying the groundwork for a future trade for SS? I think he figures he could fix him:D:

illinibk
07-29-2010, 12:36 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.
I'm sure Coop called up MLB Network Radio just to offer his opinion on Strasburg.

I'm sure he was asked by MLB Radio what he thought of Strasburg, etc. What do you expect him to say, "No comment. I need to make sure Sweaty Freddie doesn't morph into Sean Estes on me."

TomBradley72
07-29-2010, 12:43 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.

The White Sox are 5th in the AL in team ERA.

We're 2nd in the AL for the month of July, with a team ERA of 2.80...please define what "faltering" means to you.

balke
07-29-2010, 12:43 PM
Coop knows pitching mechanics. Maybe he is laying the groundwork for a future trade for SS? I think he figures he could fix him:D:

Yeah right - he can't even make Freddy Garcia pitch well. How's he supposed to fix Strasburg? Last game Freddy Garcia did bad - and that makes Don Cooper a bad pitching coach. Talk to me again about Don Cooper being good when Freddy Garcia does good. Then Don Cooper will be a good pitching coach again.

Red Barchetta
07-29-2010, 01:01 PM
This would crush that franchise. I know how hard it was to take with Wood/Prior on the north side. This kid has been hyped as the second coming.

2003/2004 - Cub fans were interolerable those two years. Thank God we had 2005 to shut them up.

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 01:07 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.

I have a job that has nothing to with baseball. Does that mean I should stop watching baseball? I should be focused on my job, after all.

pythons007
07-29-2010, 01:08 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.

You're a ****ing jackass

Mod Edit: That's a personal attack. If you don't like his opinion, just say so. Take a day to think about it. In fact, take two.

pythons007
07-29-2010, 01:09 PM
By the way, I'll said in another thread that he is Mark Prior II.:D:

kittle42
07-29-2010, 01:10 PM
If the Sox pitched 4 straight perfect games, then Garcia only pitched a no-hitter in which he walked one guy, HomeFish would say the staff was faltering.

This act is best reserved for stretches like the mid-'80s when this team was pathetic year after year. It sucks as much as those teams did.

Grow the hell out of it, seriously, and pretend like you are a fan of an actual, more-than-occasionally successful major league franchise. It's embarrassing, in my opinion, to Sox fandom.

WizardsofOzzie
07-29-2010, 01:11 PM
:rolleyes: Really now.

So if a reporter asks Coop about a pitcher from another team, he should say "I can't comment on it. My pitchers are really, really, bad right now and I need to fix 'em."?

One bad outing and Garcia is ready for the trash heap.

But you are right, the Sox' pitching staff is "faltering" which is amazing since they have the best record in all of MLB since June 8th. Yeah, June 8th which is almost two months ago.

It amazes me how many people actually seem to feel this way. 13 out of 18 starts made by Freddy have been quality starts. Pretty damn good for a #5 pitcher

TDog
07-29-2010, 01:29 PM
Why is it his business to talk about Strasburg? He should focus on his own faltering pitching staff, especially since Garcia looks like he is turning into the next Shawn Estes based on his last start.

I don't disagree, but I don't understand this from a PR pov.

Cooper was probably asked for his opinion. Being an honest, personable man, he answered the question. Strasburg did pitch against the White Sox this year. Cooper didn't blow off his duties with the White Sox to hold a press conference announcing his views on Strasburg.

No one pays attention to the White Sox anyway. If they did, there would be national buzz about Gavin Floyd, who outpitched Strasburg in their head-to-head matchup June 18 and has given up fewer earned runs while pitching more innings (against designated hitters) since.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Cooper was probably asked for his opinion. Being an honest, personable man, he answered the question. Strasburg did pitch against the White Sox this year. Cooper didn't blow off his duties with the White Sox to hold a press conference announcing his views on Strasburg.

No one pays attention to the White Sox anyway. If they did, there would be national buzz about Gavin Floyd, who outpitched Strasburg in their head-to-head matchup June 18 and has given up fewer earned runs while pitching more innings (against designated hitters) since.
Something about a forest or trees or something, I don't know. Are you really failing to grasp why Strasburg would garner more attention than Gavin Floyd? Really?

harwar
07-29-2010, 01:36 PM
In my opinion,too many guys get rushed to the big leagues way too fast .. they need time to grow and learn and instead of putting their years in building strength mentally and physically, before stepping onto a major league field, they get called up .. also,Coop's a new yawkar and one of the most respected pitching coaches in the game so it's only natural that post would talk to him .. also-also, it seems that homefish knows exactly what buttons to push to get people fairly upset ..

kittle42
07-29-2010, 01:39 PM
Something about a forest or trees or something, I don't know. Are you really failing to grasp why Strasburg would garner more attention than Gavin Floyd? Really?

Seriously. I mean, if Strasburg was on the Yankees or Red Sox or Cubs, there could be a case his hype was overblown, but he's on the freakin' NATIONALS!

Moses_Scurry
07-29-2010, 01:43 PM
So pretend for a second that the National front office has the exact same opinion, but hasn't shared it with anyone. What could they reasonably get in a trade for Strasburg? What would it require for it to be a good trade for them? I'm talking about any team, not just the Sox. It could be a wonderful opportunity for the Nationals to rebuild a huge chunk of their starting lineup/rotation.

Morel and Torres for Strasburg!

TDog
07-29-2010, 01:56 PM
Something about a forest or trees or something, I don't know. Are you really failing to grasp why Strasburg would garner more attention than Gavin Floyd? Really?

No. The Strasburg hype is there to draw people into the game. But people who follow the game should see that there are many pitchers out there who right now are better than he is. Strasburg isn't even living up to Kerry Wood's rookie season.

If everyone is raving about the greatness of Stephen Strasburg while ignoring the successes of Gavin Floyd and John Danks, I can understand why Don Cooper might be forthcoming with a negative opinion on Strasburg.

Maybe Strasburg comes back after his debut season and wins Cy Young awards in his first two full seasons, as Tim Lincecum did after struggling a bit in 2007. This season, especially right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 01:58 PM
No. The Strasburg hype is there to draw people into the game. But people who follow the game should see that there are many pitchers out there who right now are better than he is. Strasburg isn't even living up to Kerry Wood's rookie season.

If everyone is raving about the greatness of Stephen Strasburg while ignoring the successes of Gavin Floyd and John Danks, I can understand why Don Cooper might be forthcoming with a negative opinion on Strasburg.

Maybe Strasburg comes back after his debut season and wins Cy Young awards in his first two full seasons, as Tim Lincecum did after struggling a bit in 2007. This season, especially right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.
75 strikeouts in 54 innings. 15 BB. 43 hits. 5:1 SO/BB ratio.

You are losing it.

MisterB
07-29-2010, 02:04 PM
I have a job that has nothing to with baseball. Does that mean I should stop watching baseball? I should be focused on my job, after all.

No, but it means you shouldn't be cruising baseball message boards during work hours. :tongue:

Boondock Saint
07-29-2010, 02:05 PM
Strasburg isn't even living up to Kerry Wood's rookie season.

By what standard? Wood had 8 wins in 26 starts in his rookie year, Strasburg already has 5 in 9 starts. Strasburg's ERA is over a run better than Wood's, and his WHIP is better, too. And Strasburg is on pace for a higher strikeout total and better walk ratio.

kittle42
07-29-2010, 02:06 PM
If everyone is raving about the greatness of Stephen Strasburg while ignoring the successes of Gavin Floyd and John Danks

Yeah, Floyd and Danks should definitely be at the forefront of the national hype scene.

Christ, not even Jimenez or Garcia are really getting that kind of attention.

TDog
07-29-2010, 02:27 PM
75 strikeouts in 54 innings. 15 BB. 43 hits. 5:1 SO/BB ratio.

You are losing it.

The column on the scoreboard that matters is runs. Strasburg has only pitched one game where he has given up no runs, and in that one he only went six innings. During Strasburg's career, Gavin Floyd has pitched three games in which he has given up no runs, going seven innings in each. And that's just Gavin Floyd.

During Strasburg's career, John Danks has pitched three games where he has given up no runs, pitching 7 innings in the shortest outing of the three and pitching a complete-game two-hit 1-0 shutout in an AL hitters ballpark in the longest. And that's just the White Sox.

Maybe Strasburg needed more minor league experience. Maybe if he didn't have to strike out so many batters to get them out, he could go deeper into games. Limiting his innings, however, didn't keep him from going on the disabled list. Maybe they weren't limited enough.

Maybe he will go 18-5 next year the way Tim Lincecum did for a last-place team in his first full season in the majors. But right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2010, 02:31 PM
The column on the scoreboard that matters is runs. Strasburg has only pitched one game where he has given up no runs, and in that one he only went six innings. During Strasburg's career, Gavin Floyd has pitched three games in which he has given up no runs, going seven innings in each. And that's just Gavin Floyd.

During Strasburg's career, John Danks has pitched three games where he has given up no runs, pitching 7 innings in the shortest outing of the three and pitching a complete-game two-hit 1-0 shutout in an AL hitters ballpark in the longest. And that's just the White Sox.

Maybe Strasburg needed more minor league experience. Maybe if he didn't have to strike out so many batters to get them out, he could go deeper into games. Limiting his innings, however, didn't keep him from going on the disabled list. Maybe they weren't limited enough.

Maybe he will go 18-5 next year the way Tim Lincecum did for a last-place team in his first full season in the majors. But right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

This entire post is comical. Shutouts are the only way to be successful? The kid is a monster.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 02:33 PM
Speaking of Kerry Wood.

I had this debate about Kerry Wood 20 K game vs Buehrle perfect game. Which game will be the most memorable in Chicago sports history

Saracen
07-29-2010, 02:34 PM
Speaking of Kerry Wood.

I had this debate about Kerry Wood 20 K game vs Buehrle perfect game. Which game will be the most memorable in Chicago sports history
Imo Wood's game.

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 02:36 PM
Imo Wood's game.

I agree with you. especially after seeing a few more perfect games this year

kittle42
07-29-2010, 02:40 PM
The column on the scoreboard that matters is runs. Strasburg has only pitched one game where he has given up no runs, and in that one he only went six innings. During Strasburg's career, Gavin Floyd has pitched three games in which he has given up no runs, going seven innings in each. And that's just Gavin Floyd.

During Strasburg's career, John Danks has pitched three games where he has given up no runs, pitching 7 innings in the shortest outing of the three and pitching a complete-game two-hit 1-0 shutout in an AL hitters ballpark in the longest. And that's just the White Sox.

Maybe Strasburg needed more minor league experience. Maybe if he didn't have to strike out so many batters to get them out, he could go deeper into games. Limiting his innings, however, didn't keep him from going on the disabled list. Maybe they weren't limited enough.

Maybe he will go 18-5 next year the way Tim Lincecum did for a last-place team in his first full season in the majors. But right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

This entire thing is as flawed as your well-known belief that wins are a great way to judge a pitcher.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 02:43 PM
The column on the scoreboard that matters is runs. Strasburg has only pitched one game where he has given up no runs, and in that one he only went six innings. During Strasburg's career, Gavin Floyd has pitched three games in which he has given up no runs, going seven innings in each. And that's just Gavin Floyd.

During Strasburg's career, John Danks has pitched three games where he has given up no runs, pitching 7 innings in the shortest outing of the three and pitching a complete-game two-hit 1-0 shutout in an AL hitters ballpark in the longest. And that's just the White Sox.

Maybe Strasburg needed more minor league experience. Maybe if he didn't have to strike out so many batters to get them out, he could go deeper into games. Limiting his innings, however, didn't keep him from going on the disabled list. Maybe they weren't limited enough.

Maybe he will go 18-5 next year the way Tim Lincecum did for a last-place team in his first full season in the majors. But right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

:rolling:

Jee-zus.

The absurdity of this post is classic. The kid is 1 year removed from college and is undeniably one of the best young pitchers to come to the Show in long time. This is reminiscient of that guy from 2004 who went berserk when the Sox acquired Freddy Garcia because he was something like 5-9 at the time, even though the M's were scoring about 1 RPG when he started.

canOcorn
07-29-2010, 02:44 PM
The column on the scoreboard that matters is runs. Strasburg has only pitched one game where he has given up no runs, and in that one he only went six innings. During Strasburg's career, Gavin Floyd has pitched three games in which he has given up no runs, going seven innings in each. And that's just Gavin Floyd.

During Strasburg's career, John Danks has pitched three games where he has given up no runs, pitching 7 innings in the shortest outing of the three and pitching a complete-game two-hit 1-0 shutout in an AL hitters ballpark in the longest. And that's just the White Sox.

Maybe Strasburg needed more minor league experience. Maybe if he didn't have to strike out so many batters to get them out, he could go deeper into games. Limiting his innings, however, didn't keep him from going on the disabled list. Maybe they weren't limited enough.

Maybe he will go 18-5 next year the way Tim Lincecum did for a last-place team in his first full season in the majors. But right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

:rolleyes: :shakehead::roflmao:

g0g0
07-29-2010, 02:46 PM
2003/2004 - Cub fans were interolerable those two years. Thank God we had 2005 to shut them up.

Just think if they would have remained healthy. What a great duo. But I remember 2004 for a more awesome reason - we got rid of Sammy!!!

munchman33
07-29-2010, 02:47 PM
No. The Strasburg hype is there to draw people into the game. But people who follow the game should see that there are many pitchers out there who right now are better than he is. Strasburg isn't even living up to Kerry Wood's rookie season.

If everyone is raving about the greatness of Stephen Strasburg while ignoring the successes of Gavin Floyd and John Danks, I can understand why Don Cooper might be forthcoming with a negative opinion on Strasburg.

Maybe Strasburg comes back after his debut season and wins Cy Young awards in his first two full seasons, as Tim Lincecum did after struggling a bit in 2007. This season, especially right now, Strasburg isn't living up to his hype.

I suppose you think the White Sox wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Strasburg then. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Sox would turn down Floyd and Danks for Strasburg. They're not even close to Strasburg's talent or level of production.

g0g0
07-29-2010, 02:50 PM
During Strasburg's career

:thud:

Boondock Saint
07-29-2010, 02:50 PM
I suppose you think the White Sox wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Strasburg then. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Sox would turn down Floyd and Danks for Strasburg. They're not even close to Strasburg's talent or level of production.

Yep. I'd give the both of them up for Strasburg right now.

kittle42
07-29-2010, 02:50 PM
I suppose you think the White Sox wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Strasburg then.

But who has more WINS?!

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 02:54 PM
I suppose you think the White Sox wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Strasburg then. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Sox would turn down Floyd and Danks for Strasburg. They're not even close to Strasburg's talent or level of production.
I don't know about giving up Danks for Strasburg. Obviously, Strasburg has a whole lot more potential than Danks has but I'm scared about his health. His nasty stuff and average pitching mechanics just can't be good for his long-term health. I'd rather keep the healthy Danks over the phenom with a questionable health. I'd definitely do Floyd for Strasburg in half a heartbeat though.

thedudeabides
07-29-2010, 02:59 PM
Cooper is far from the first person to voice concern over Strasburg's mechanics and potential for injury. I heard one scout call him a trainwreck.

He's also not the first to compare him to Wood or Prior.

ChrisOleary (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/baseball/pitching/professionalpitcheranalyses/StephenStrasburg.html)

Driveline mechanics has been doing some very good breakdowns and predicting injury for a while now, but the site seems to be down for the moment.

hawkjt
07-29-2010, 03:07 PM
Sorry, but Coop knows a million times more about pitching mechanics than any fans on here,and if he says that the ''inverted W'' strasberg does is a recipie for injury and hard to correct,then I would not trade Floyd or Danks for him. They are proven durable big league pitchers, while he is a crapshoot right now. Give me the durable guys who throw 200+ innings anyday.

TDog
07-29-2010, 03:38 PM
I suppose you think the White Sox wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Strasburg then. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Sox would turn down Floyd and Danks for Strasburg. They're not even close to Strasburg's talent or level of production.

Kenny Williams wouldn't trade John Danks or Gavin Floyd for Stephen Strasburg. He certainly wouldn't trade both for Strasburg. He went to Stanford and really is very smart. His job is to win. This season, replacing Garcia or Hudson with Strasburg, assuming he comes off the DL in two weeks, would improve the White Sox starting rotation, but replacing Floyd or Danks or Buehrle with Strasburg would diminish it. Also, pitching is such a fragile commodity that trading two pitchers solid pitchers for one great pitcher isn't a smart move for a contender.

It's a moot point, though. The Nationals wouldn't trade Strasburg because it really doesn't matter if they win. They can develop his talent, bring him up to the majors to get his professional experience. They can limit his innings because they don't need to win. Limiting innings not only limits the number of pitches a pitcher throws, but limits the number of times a pitcher has to get hitters out in a game.

Lincecum's 18 wins in his first full season, for a last place team with minimal offense, was a good indicator of how good he was. He wouldn't have picked up so many wins if he only pitched six innings a game. He certainly wouldn't have led the league in strikeouts if he only pitched six innings a game.

I'm not saying Strasburg doesn't look like he could be a great starting pitcher. I'm saying isn't yet one of the National League's elite pitchers, although he has the potential to be. But I trust Cooper's knowlege of pitching enough to not assume Strasburg will be the next Lincecum.

Kerry Wood struck out 233 in his Rookie of the Year season, and I don't see Strasburg doing that. But I don't see Strasburg getting any first-place votes for Rookie of the Year if the vote were held today, and assuming the voters are paying attention to the performance of National League rookies this year.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 03:40 PM
I don't know about giving up Danks for Strasburg. Obviously, Strasburg has a whole lot more potential than Danks has but I'm scared about his health. His nasty stuff and average pitching mechanics just can't be good for his long-term health. I'd rather keep the healthy Danks over the phenom with a questionable health. I'd definitely do Floyd for Strasburg in half a heartbeat though.

I wouldn't give up Danks for anyone at this point. He's 25 years old and legitimately one of the top 10-15 pitchers in all of the baseball. He is going to be our ace for the next 4-5 seasons.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 03:52 PM
Also, pitching is such a fragile commodity that trading two pitchers solid pitchers for one great pitcher isn't a smart move for a contender.
This I agree with. Giving up two good pitchers for one great pitcher is a lateral move at best, especially when the great pitcher has questions regarding his health. As the old saying goes, you can't have too much pitching.

Lincecum's 18 wins in his first full season, for a last place team with minimal offense, was a good indicator of how good he was. He wouldn't have picked up so many wins if he only pitched six innings a game. He certainly wouldn't have led the league in strikeouts if he only pitched six innings a game.

Kerry Wood struck out 233 in his Rookie of the Year season, and I don't see Strasburg doing that.
Strasburg would have gotten more innings if the Nats weren't being cautious. Check out the game logs for Lincecum and Wood. Both guys went over 110 pitches fairly often and even went 130+ once or twice. Wood became the poster boy for injury-prone mechanics along with Prior and Lincecum is not as dominant as he was the past two seasons (His velocity has been constantly going down). Besides, did Strasburg ask to be taken out of the game before 100 pitch count? No. Don't make it sound like Strasburg sucks just because of something he has no control over.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 04:23 PM
*Shoots self*

SI1020
07-29-2010, 04:49 PM
Yep. I'd give the both of them up for Strasburg right now. I wouldn't because to me he looks a like a major injury waiting to happen. Don Cooper has solidified the already good impression I have of him.

soltrain21
07-29-2010, 05:05 PM
Kenny Williams wouldn't trade John Danks or Gavin Floyd for Stephen Strasburg. He certainly wouldn't trade both for Strasburg. He went to Stanford and really is very smart. His job is to win. This season, replacing Garcia or Hudson with Strasburg, assuming he comes off the DL in two weeks, would improve the White Sox starting rotation, but replacing Floyd or Danks or Buehrle with Strasburg would diminish it. Also, pitching is such a fragile commodity that trading two pitchers solid pitchers for one great pitcher isn't a smart move for a contender.

It's a moot point, though. The Nationals wouldn't trade Strasburg because it really doesn't matter if they win. They can develop his talent, bring him up to the majors to get his professional experience. They can limit his innings because they don't need to win. Limiting innings not only limits the number of pitches a pitcher throws, but limits the number of times a pitcher has to get hitters out in a game.

Lincecum's 18 wins in his first full season, for a last place team with minimal offense, was a good indicator of how good he was. He wouldn't have picked up so many wins if he only pitched six innings a game. He certainly wouldn't have led the league in strikeouts if he only pitched six innings a game.

I'm not saying Strasburg doesn't look like he could be a great starting pitcher. I'm saying isn't yet one of the National League's elite pitchers, although he has the potential to be. But I trust Cooper's knowlege of pitching enough to not assume Strasburg will be the next Lincecum.

Kerry Wood struck out 233 in his Rookie of the Year season, and I don't see Strasburg doing that. But I don't see Strasburg getting any first-place votes for Rookie of the Year if the vote were held today, and assuming the voters are paying attention to the performance of National League rookies this year.

I always knew McCarver posted here.

hi im skot
07-29-2010, 05:06 PM
I always knew McCarver posted here.

:rolling:

Boondock Saint
07-29-2010, 05:15 PM
This I agree with. Giving up two good pitchers for one great pitcher is a lateral move at best, especially when the great pitcher has questions regarding his health. As the old saying goes, you can't have too much pitching.

Well, this hypothetical scenario would be all about the future anyway. Right now, as a "win this year" kind of trade, yeah, it would be stupid. But given the opportunity, I'd be all over it.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 05:25 PM
Well, this hypothetical scenario would be all about the future anyway. Right now, as a "win this year" kind of trade, yeah, it would be stupid. But given the opportunity, I'd be all over it.
Hmm, I think it's actually the other way around. In the pennant race, we can use off-days to run a 4-man rotation so we can afford to lose a pitcher. On the other hand, we cannot continue to run a 4-man rotation into the future so we need to acquire another pitcher so it becomes an issue. That's why it becomes a lateral move at best. It's not like we are talking about trading average pitchers for a great pitcher. Both Danks and Floyd are good MLB starters in their own right.

Also, Gavin's only 27 and Danks's only 25. Strasburg, while he may be 21, has just been scratched from a start with a shoulder inflammation despite all the cautious steps the Nats have taken. His mechanics are average and combine that with his downright nasty stuff, you have a major injury waiting to happen. I wouldn't trade both Danks and Floyd for Strasburg for that reason.

TheOldRoman
07-29-2010, 05:46 PM
I suppose you think the White Sox wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Strasburg then. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Sox would turn down Floyd and Danks for Strasburg. They're not even close to Strasburg's talent or level of production.You never fail to outdo yourself.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 05:48 PM
It's a stupid hypothetical. Can we all just go back to pointing and laughing at the idea that Strasburg has somehow failed to live up to the hype?

TDog
07-29-2010, 05:50 PM
... Besides, did Strasburg ask to be taken out of the game before 100 pitch count? No. Don't make it sound like Strasburg sucks just because of something he has no control over.

I didn't say Strasburg sucks.I have too much respect for the skills required to play major league baseball to say any major leaguer sucks. But even with his innings being limited, he has had to go on the disabled list. He isn't yet one of the National League's elite pitchers no matter where his ceiling might be.

Lincecum is still striking out hitters at a higher rate than he did as a rookie.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 06:05 PM
I didn't say Strasburg sucks.I have too much respect for the skills required to play major league baseball to say any major leaguer sucks. But even with his innings being limited, he has had to go on the disabled list. He isn't yet one of the National League's elite pitchers no matter where his ceiling might be.
All right then, who are your top 10 pitchers in NL? That will give me an idea as to why you think Strasburg isn't an elite pitcher besides his low inning totals.

Lincecum is still striking out hitters at a higher rate than he did as a rookie.
By higher, you mean slightly higher (9.30 compared to 9.23 K/9). It's way down from his Cy Young seasons. Yes, Lincecum is still a dominant picher but his velo's going down and he's throwing more off-speed pitches. That's a sign that his health is starting to be a concern which was inevitable after how much the Giants were willing to abuse his arm. Lincecum will injure his hip/back/waist some time in his career if he tries to throw like he did when he first came up. Strasburg would have racked up a lot more Ks and innings if he were allowed to pitch like Lincecum. The fact remains that the Nats didn't allow it.

TDog
07-29-2010, 06:48 PM
All right then, who are your top 10 pitchers in NL? That will give me an idea as to why you think Strasburg isn't an elite pitcher besides his low inning totals. ...


If you rank Strasburg among the top 10 pitchers in the National League, you are fueling the argument that he isn't living up to his hype. There are more than 10 starters in the league who probably deserve consideration to be among the 10 best, but Strasburg isn't among them. Anibal Sanchez, for example, showed today why he should be considered one of the 10 best. There are 18 NL pitchers with complete-game shutouts this season, and Strasburg isn't among them.

What Strasburg could do if he were allowed to pitch more innings (which he doesn't do because the Nationals don't want Strasburg to end up on the disabled list) is irrelevant because he hasn't done it yet.

munchman33
07-29-2010, 07:01 PM
You never fail to outdo yourself.

I'd do the deal. :?:

Even if you think he's an injury waiting to happen, you could trade him for any player you want in baseball. He's cheap, a huge draw, and really really good. What player in baseball couldn't you get straight up for him? That's an awfully short list. Can you say the same for a package of Floyd and Danks? I don't think you can...

Moses_Scurry
07-29-2010, 07:11 PM
I bet you could get just about anybody for Floyd AND Danks.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 08:39 PM
If you rank Strasburg among the top 10 pitchers in the National League, you are fueling the argument that he isn't living up to his hype. There are more than 10 starters in the league who probably deserve consideration to be among the 10 best, but Strasburg isn't among them. Anibal Sanchez, for example, showed today why he should be considered one of the 10 best. There are 18 NL pitchers with complete-game shutouts this season, and Strasburg isn't among them.

What Strasburg could do if he were allowed to pitch more innings (which he doesn't do because the Nationals don't want Strasburg to end up on the disabled list) is irrelevant because he hasn't done it yet.
Tremendous metric. Absolutely tremendous.

Sanchez is not one of the ten best. He's not one of the twenty. Even top thirty is a stretch. Christ.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 08:48 PM
Tremendous metric. Absolutely tremendous.

Sanchez is not one of the ten best. He's not one of the twenty. Even top thirty is a stretch. Christ.
This.

Anyway, I'm just gonna shut up. This **** is going nowhere.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 09:18 PM
If you rank Strasburg among the top 10 pitchers in the National League, you are fueling the argument that he isn't living up to his hype. There are more than 10 starters in the league who probably deserve consideration to be among the 10 best, but Strasburg isn't among them. Anibal Sanchez, for example, showed today why he should be considered one of the 10 best. There are 18 NL pitchers with complete-game shutouts this season, and Strasburg isn't among them.

What Strasburg could do if he were allowed to pitch more innings (which he doesn't do because the Nationals don't want Strasburg to end up on the disabled list) is irrelevant because he hasn't done it yet.

Did you just say Anibel Sanchez > Stephen Strasburg?

Ho. Lee. ****.

Huisj
07-29-2010, 09:37 PM
This whole argument is silly because some people are arguing "better" in terms of who can win their team more games, and other people are arguing "better" as being who has the best raw stuff and potential to dominate.

Here's the simple solution to the argument:

Strasburg certainly has stuff that ranks right up near the top of the league in terms of his ability to overpower a hitter; look at his combination of velocity, movement, breaking ball, control, and ability to change speeds, and I don't think you can argue that.

However, Strasburg is in a position where he is simply not allowed to go out there and use that dominating stuff in a way that directly translates into the most value for his team--he can't go out there and win 20 games, even for a good team. He's not allowed to throw enough innings, because the organization is more worried about long-term health and development than about winning now. This shoulder inflammation issue shows that they have great reason to be this careful, and also casts some doubt on whether he'll ever get to that point where his raw stuff can translate into real results. Those issues make it hard to put him up in a top-10 list of starters right now; you wouldn't go put him in the thick of a pennant race to be your go-to horse right now the way you would other guys like Halladay, Jimenez, Lincecum (yes, his velocity is down, but aside from a few starts the results are still there), Carpenter, Wainwright, Johnson, etc. He's more like Rich Harden in his prime than any of those guys listed--tremendous stuff that leads to tons of K's and low, low hit totals, but not really a lot of wins, because he's not allowed or able to go out there and be a big winner.

SI1020
07-29-2010, 09:43 PM
This whole argument is silly because some people are arguing "better" in terms of who can win their team more games, and other people are arguing "better" as being who has the best raw stuff and potential to dominate.

Here's the simple solution to the argument:

Strasburg certainly has stuff that ranks right up near the top of the league in terms of his ability to overpower a hitter; look at his combination of velocity, movement, breaking ball, control, and ability to change speeds, and I don't think you can argue that.

However, Strasburg is in a position where he is simply not allowed to go out there and use that dominating stuff in a way that directly translates into the most value for his team--he can't go out there and win 20 games, even for a good team. He's not allowed to throw enough innings, because the organization is more worried about long-term health and development than about winning now. This shoulder inflammation issue shows that they have great reason to be this careful, and also casts some doubt on whether he'll ever get to that point where his raw stuff can translate into real results. Those issues make it hard to put him up in a top-10 list of starters right now; you wouldn't go put him in the thick of a pennant race to be your go-to horse right now the way you would other guys like Halladay, Jimenez, Lincecum (yes, his velocity is down, but aside from a few starts the results are still there), Carpenter, Wainwright, Johnson, etc. He's more like Rich Harden in his prime than any of those guys listed--tremendous stuff that leads to tons of K's and low, low hit totals, but not really a lot of wins, because he's not allowed or able to go out there and be a big winner. Best post in the thread.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 09:58 PM
This whole argument is silly because some people are arguing "better" in terms of who can win their team more games, and other people are arguing "better" as being who has the best raw stuff and potential to dominate.

Here's the simple solution to the argument:

Strasburg certainly has stuff that ranks right up near the top of the league in terms of his ability to overpower a hitter; look at his combination of velocity, movement, breaking ball, control, and ability to change speeds, and I don't think you can argue that.

However, Strasburg is in a position where he is simply not allowed to go out there and use that dominating stuff in a way that directly translates into the most value for his team--he can't go out there and win 20 games, even for a good team. He's not allowed to throw enough innings, because the organization is more worried about long-term health and development than about winning now. This shoulder inflammation issue shows that they have great reason to be this careful, and also casts some doubt on whether he'll ever get to that point where his raw stuff can translate into real results. Those issues make it hard to put him up in a top-10 list of starters right now; you wouldn't go put him in the thick of a pennant race to be your go-to horse right now the way you would other guys like Halladay, Jimenez, Lincecum (yes, his velocity is down, but aside from a few starts the results are still there), Carpenter, Wainwright, Johnson, etc. He's more like Rich Harden in his prime than any of those guys listed--tremendous stuff that leads to tons of K's and low, low hit totals, but not really a lot of wins, because he's not allowed or able to go out there and be a big winner.
Now that's more like it. Well said. If I must point out someting I don't agree with, it's the emphasis on wins. In my personal opinion, wins mean squat when comparing pitchers because some pitchers have to deal with a horrible bullpen, a bad offense or a bad matchup. Also, I don't think pitchers are more valuable just because they eat up more innings. A Rich Harden may not get you deep into the game but he will shut down the other team's offense for 5-6 innings. That's pretty good in my book.

Huisj
07-29-2010, 10:03 PM
Now that's more like it. Well said. If I must point out someting I don't agree with, it's the emphasis on wins. In my personal opinion, wins mean squat when comparing pitchers because some pitchers have to deal with a horrible bullpen, a bad offense or a bad matchup. Also, I don't think pitchers are more valuable just because they eat up more innings. A Rich Harden may not get you deep into the game but he will shut down the other team's offense for 5-6 innings. That's pretty good in my book.

But compared to a pitcher who can shut down the other team's offense for 8 or 9 innings often, you can hardly argue that the 5-6 inning guy is just as valuable. The guy who can dominate for 8 innings often eliminates that bullpen factor.

I understand that lots of guys can luck their way into wins when they don't necessarily pitch great, and without looking deeper, wins isn't a great metric to start judging starters by. But, that doesn't mean that pitchers can't affect wins and losses to some extent. If a guy dominates and pitches a ton of innings, that puts his team in the position to win more often than a guy who dominates for 5 innings and then hands it to the bullpen. That leads to more wins.

Pablo_Honey
07-29-2010, 10:26 PM
But compared to a pitcher who can shut down the other team's offense for 8 or 9 innings often, you can hardly argue that the 5-6 inning guy is just as valuable. The guy who can dominate for 8 innings often eliminates that bullpen factor.

I understand that lots of guys can luck their way into wins when they don't necessarily pitch great, and without looking deeper, wins isn't a great metric to start judging starters by. But, that doesn't mean that pitchers can't affect wins and losses to some extent. If a guy dominates and pitches a ton of innings, that puts his team in the position to win more often than a guy who dominates for 5 innings and then hands it to the bullpen. That leads to more wins.
I agree that guys who can dominate and still maintain to go deep into the game are the true top pitchers in the league. I would definitely take Roy Halladay over Rich Harden. All the guys I would list as the elite pitchers in the league are guys who maintain a nice K/BB ratio, thus allowing them to remain in game longer without giving up many runs. So yeah I think we are on the same page here.

The problem with Strasburg is that the Nats are being very cautious with him, although it's the right move, his innings are being limited which makes it harder to gauge his value. Based on what we've seen so far, he has a ridiculous stuff that is supported by his Ks. Also, based on his pitch count, I'd assume he could have pitched one more inning every outing which would have allowed him to average 6-7 innings. With this assumption in mind, I stated before Stras could crack the top 10 pitcher list albeit barely.

As for wins, Matt Cain's 2007-2008 W-L record makes it hard for me to judge a pitcher by how many wins and losses he has. I know it's an extreme case and I do agree that you could derive some information about pitchers based on their W-L record. Nevertheless, the first thing I look for in pitchers is ERA because you can't be a good pitcher if you give up many runs. I think ERA is more indicative of the pitcher's value than W-L. Just my two cents.

Bobby Thigpen
07-29-2010, 10:44 PM
Yep. I'd give the both of them up for Strasburg right now.
No offense, but I thank God you're not the White Sox GM.

TheOldRoman
07-29-2010, 11:11 PM
I'd do the deal. :?:

Even if you think he's an injury waiting to happen, you could trade him for any player you want in baseball. He's cheap, a huge draw, and really really good. What player in baseball couldn't you get straight up for him? That's an awfully short list. Can you say the same for a package of Floyd and Danks? I don't think you can...No, no GM in their right mind would trade Danks and Floyd for Strasburg. Injury-proneness aside from Strasburg, you would be giving up two great starters, one of which is one of the best young lefties in baseball, for one potentially great starter. That is astonishingly awful from the Sox perspective. He would be a draw the 1/5 games he pitches in (assuming he can stay healthy), but you are creating a huge hole in the rotation while getting a marginal upgrade at best.

TDog
07-29-2010, 11:40 PM
Tremendous metric. Absolutely tremendous.

Sanchez is not one of the ten best. He's not one of the twenty. Even top thirty is a stretch. Christ.

You're looking at metrics. I can see why you're confused.

Anibal Sanchez today was a better pitcher than Stephen Strasburg has ever been at any time in his major league career. That could be said of a lot of pitchers on a lot of days and nights since Strasburg debuted.

This is the year of the pitcher -- two perfect games, one imperfect game, several more no-hitters. None of them were pitched by Strasburg. His strikeouts per inning don't make him among the best pitchers in the league if he's only pitching six innings a game. At this point you can only say he shows the promise to be one of the elite pitchers in the game.

I'm not talking about what you assume he will do when his shoulder feels better. You can't extrapolate a pitcher's strikeout-per-innings over the course of the season and give him more credit because of what you will assume he did if he had pitched those innings. You can't say a reliever who pitches 80 innings and strikes out 100 would have struck out 250 if he had been a starter with 200 innings. You can't assume a pitcher with 12 strikeouts over six innings would have picked up 18 if he had pitched a complete nine-inning game. You can't assume a pitcher would have pitched a no-hitter if he only he comes out after a perfect six to prevent the risk of injury.

Strasburg may have more talent than any pitcher in the baseball today. Until he pitches as well as Anibal Sanchez did today, he isn't one of the league's best pitchers.

SOXSINCE'70
07-30-2010, 12:06 AM
I wouldn't give up Danks for anyone at this point. He's 25 years old and legitimately one of the top 10-15 pitchers in all of the baseball. He is going to be our ace for the next 4-5 seasons.

And Gavin Floyd isn't too far behind him.
It's amazing the Sox acquired both Danks and Floyd after the 2006 season literally days apart.
Danks was acquired from the Rangers for Brandon McCarthy, and Floyd was acquired from the Phillies for Freddy Garcia.:roflmao:

Word to the wise:don't mention the names Gavin Floyd, Freddy Garcia or Ed Wade (the man who made the Floyd for Garcia trade) too loudly in Philly.Thanks to his ineffectiveness and stints on the DL in '07, Garcia is practically public enemy # 1.And Floyd was once thought of by some in the Phillies organization as the right handed Cole Hammels.My dad lives near Philly, so I always get stories from him about how Sox fans should be grateful for the gift of Floyd.

I know i'm grateful.

doublem23
07-30-2010, 12:15 AM
You're looking at metrics. I can see why you're confused.

Anibal Sanchez today was a better pitcher than Stephen Strasburg has ever been at any time in his major league career. That could be said of a lot of pitchers on a lot of days and nights since Strasburg debuted.

This is the year of the pitcher -- two perfect games, one imperfect game, several more no-hitters. None of them were pitched by Strasburg. His strikeouts per inning don't make him among the best pitchers in the league if he's only pitching six innings a game. At this point you can only say he shows the promise to be one of the elite pitchers in the game.

I'm not talking about what you assume he will do when his shoulder feels better. You can't extrapolate a pitcher's strikeout-per-innings over the course of the season and give him more credit because of what you will assume he did if he had pitched those innings. You can't say a reliever who pitches 80 innings and strikes out 100 would have struck out 250 if he had been a starter with 200 innings. You can't assume a pitcher with 12 strikeouts over six innings would have picked up 18 if he had pitched a complete nine-inning game. You can't assume a pitcher would have pitched a no-hitter if he only he comes out after a perfect six to prevent the risk of injury.

Strasburg may have more talent than any pitcher in the baseball today. Until he pitches as well as Anibal Sanchez did today, he isn't one of the league's best pitchers.

Here's where this argument is absolutely flawed. OK, Strasburg isn't as good as Anibal Sanchez because Sanchez had a great night tonight against the Giants. OK. Yet if you would take a moment and scan Sanchez's game log for just this season and you'd see his just as likely to twirl a gem as he is to toss a stinker. What about just earlier this month, on the 8th, against Arizona (who sucks, BTW) when he allowed 9 hits and 6 runs in 4 innings. Strasburg has never had an outing that poor, either. So why are you allowed to cherry pick games that support your insane hypothesis and conveniently ignore those that dispute it.

Also, in the end, the idea of saying "who is best," has just as much to do with who you'd rather have on your team tomorrow. If there was a Game 7 of the World Series and you had to choose between Strasburg or Sanchez, no one in their right mind would pick Sanchez. They just wouldn't.

Pablo_Honey
07-30-2010, 12:44 AM
Anibal Sanchez today was a better pitcher than Stephen Strasburg has ever been at any time in his major league career. That could be said of a lot of pitchers on a lot of days and nights since Strasburg debuted.
What is this I don't even

kittle42
07-30-2010, 04:24 AM
You're looking at metrics. I can see why you're confused.

Anibal Sanchez today was a better pitcher than Stephen Strasburg has ever been at any time in his major league career. That could be said of a lot of pitchers on a lot of days and nights since Strasburg debuted.

This is the year of the pitcher -- two perfect games, one imperfect game, several more no-hitters. None of them were pitched by Strasburg. His strikeouts per inning don't make him among the best pitchers in the league if he's only pitching six innings a game. At this point you can only say he shows the promise to be one of the elite pitchers in the game.

I'm not talking about what you assume he will do when his shoulder feels better. You can't extrapolate a pitcher's strikeout-per-innings over the course of the season and give him more credit because of what you will assume he did if he had pitched those innings. You can't say a reliever who pitches 80 innings and strikes out 100 would have struck out 250 if he had been a starter with 200 innings. You can't assume a pitcher with 12 strikeouts over six innings would have picked up 18 if he had pitched a complete nine-inning game. You can't assume a pitcher would have pitched a no-hitter if he only he comes out after a perfect six to prevent the risk of injury.

Strasburg may have more talent than any pitcher in the baseball today. Until he pitches as well as Anibal Sanchez did today, he isn't one of the league's best pitchers.

I admit to not knowing much about anything, but your statements and reasoning about pitching have been flawed for quite some time. And it's not like you come on here, as I and others sometimes do, and just give a one sentence, "I know better than you do" type of post. You explain what you mean, which is admirable. Problem is, it's all just plain wrong.

PatK
07-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Even if you think he's an injury waiting to happen, you could trade him for any player you want in baseball.

He's on the DL. He's an injury that already happened.