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View Full Version : Omar Vizquel says the White Sox need to make a trade


Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 09:28 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5415535

I don't know if I have ever heard a player just come out and say this. Even Ozzie wasn't really happy with Omar over it.

Good for Omar. If he is saying it, the players feel it too. It isn't personal Kotsay, it is just about winning.

Edit: Sorry, I am not sure if this is a clubhouse or WTS thread, but it isn't much speculation as much as a current player commenting.

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 09:32 AM
totally agree with Omar.

LITTLE NELL
07-28-2010, 09:48 AM
I bet if there was a poll among the players they would want another starter. I think Hudson will be a good pitcher down the road but it doesn't look like he's coping well with the heat of a pennant race.

TheOldRoman
07-28-2010, 09:50 AM
E tu, Omar?

Wow. You never hear this. Good for Omar. 13 years later he is still pissed at Jose Mesa for costing him a world championship. Omar wants to finally get a title. I don't think for a second this changes the focus of management, but it is good to see his desire to win.

hawkjt
07-28-2010, 09:51 AM
The quote from Omar was ''if it is not another pitcher ,then we need a hitter''... so he left it open that it could be a starter that we need,in his opinion.

I agree that it is not the usual cliches you hear from inside the locker room,especially from a team that has gone 31-11 in their last 42 games.

It is pretty hard to argue that a team going that well has glaring problems.
As they said, only a long time vet could suggest this. I do not think it is necessarily a great thing for Omar to say...he has been here all of 4 months,and he is telling Kenny how to do his job?

It is ok to think it,but you do not need to say everything thing that crosses your mind. I do not think it will spur kenny or add to the info kenny is working on...but not a big deal either. Better left unsaid.

Boondock Saint
07-28-2010, 09:55 AM
The quote from Omar was ''if it is not another pitcher ,then we need a hitter''... so he left it open that it could be a starter that we need,in his opinion.

I agree that it is not the usual cliches you hear from inside the locker room,especially from a team that has gone 31-11 in their last 42 games.

It is pretty hard to argue that a team going that well has glaring problems.
As they said, only a long time vet could suggest this. I do not think it is necessarily a great thing for Omar to say...he has been here all of 4 months,and he is telling Kenny how to do his job?

It is ok to think it,but you do not need to say everything thing that crosses your mind. I do not think it will spur kenny or add to the info kenny is working on...but not a big deal either. Better left unsaid.

I don't think he's telling anyone how to do anything. Saying that your team isn't good enough to go all the way as is doesn't harm the team. If anything, KW should listen to what he has to say because of how long he's been around. Sure, he shouldn't be saying stuff like that to the media, but I don't think it's a big deal, either. I'm guessing Ozzie pulls him aside and asks him to be a little more careful with what he says.

guillensdisciple
07-28-2010, 09:56 AM
I like this. A winner through and through is always a winner. Omar wants to win, and it is really true. We need to separate ourselves from the Twins and become elite. We can make the playoffs with the team as is, but if we want to be serious we need to get someone big and go from there. It's time to grab this by the horns and stomp on the American league.

beasly213
07-28-2010, 10:01 AM
I don't think he's telling anyone how to do anything. Saying that your team isn't good enough to go all the way as is doesn't harm the team. If anything, KW should listen to what he has to say because of how long he's been around. Sure, he shouldn't be saying stuff like that to the media, but I don't think it's a big deal, either. I'm guessing Ozzie pulls him aside and asks him to be a little more careful with what he says.

I would agree with this. Everyone is all on Ozzie lately for being open saying he doesn't want to add players to the team because he likes his team. I think Ozzie is saying that to the media and being so public about that because he wants the guys on his team to know he has their back. That way in case a trade doesn't happen the players who are on the team now know their manager was always behind them which could really help the psychie of some guys on the current roster.

LoveYourSuit
07-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Omar is the best thing that has happened to the Sox this year.

I remember everyone bitching about the signing, but what a blessing.

hi im skot
07-28-2010, 10:08 AM
Omar is the best thing that has happened to the Sox this year.

I remember everyone bitching about the signing, but what a blessing.

Was there really bitching? I think it was more just general confusion, followed by "Well, at least he can serve as an additional coach."

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 10:11 AM
Well no kidding it's not personal. Kotsay is the least productive DH in the history of the league. Only our fearless manager and a few of his followers can't seem to realize that.

guillensdisciple
07-28-2010, 10:12 AM
Well no kidding it's not personal. Kotsay is the least productive DH in the history of the league. Only our fearless manager and a few of his followers can't seem to realize that.


I'm pretty sure Seatlle's DH and Baltimore's would like to have a talk with you.

Boondock Saint
07-28-2010, 10:14 AM
Was there really bitching? I think it was more just general confusion, followed by "Well, at least he can serve as an additional coach."

Relive the glory. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116647&highlight=sox+sign+omar+vizquel)

It wasn't terrible, but there were more than enough "He can't play" comments.

Carneyman14
07-28-2010, 10:23 AM
I think the best analysis I have heard on getting players at the deadline (I don't remember who said it) but it was something along the lines of: "Sure, you could win your division with the team you have now, but with all of the other teams essentialy getting better shouldn't you work to get better too?"

Even if the Twins or Tigers don't make a move, we will face teams in the playoffs that HAVE.

hi im skot
07-28-2010, 10:24 AM
Well no kidding it's not personal. Kotsay is the least productive DH in the history of the league. Only our fearless manager and a few of his followers can't seem to realize that.

WOOOOO HYPERBOLE!

Someone posted this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats_lg.cgi?full=1&params=defp%7Cas%20DH%7CAL%7C2010%7Cbat%7CAB%7C) recently.

guillensdisciple
07-28-2010, 10:25 AM
WOOOOO HYPERBOLE!

Someone posted this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats_lg.cgi?full=1&params=defp%7Cas%20DH%7CAL%7C2010%7Cbat%7CAB%7C) recently.


HOLY ****!!!!

Forget what I said about Baltimore.

hi im skot
07-28-2010, 10:25 AM
Relive the glory. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116647&highlight=sox+sign+omar+vizquel)

It wasn't terrible, but there were more than enough "He can't play" comments.

Yeah, I went through this a few minutes ago. I didn't think it was as bad as LYS made it out to be. And in retrospect, it was a somewhat confusing signing.

Either way, I'm loving him on the squad.

TheOldRoman
07-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Was there really bitching? I think it was more just general confusion, followed by "Well, at least he can serve as an additional coach."Oh yes, there was some bitching. Particularly after the fact. Lots of "How can we pay a bench player $1 mil a year but we lose out on Damon over (allegedly) $2 mil?! Benches are irrelevant in the American League" posts.

LoveYourSuit
07-28-2010, 10:51 AM
Yeah, I went through this a few minutes ago. I didn't think it was as bad as LYS made it out to be. And in retrospect, it was a somewhat confusing signing.

Either way, I'm loving him on the squad.


I would hope he is Cora's replacement down the line.

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 10:53 AM
WOOOOO HYPERBOLE!

Someone posted this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats_lg.cgi?full=1&params=defp%7Cas%20DH%7CAL%7C2010%7Cbat%7CAB%7C) recently.

Wooo! I don't see Mark Kotsay's name anywhere on there woooo!


I'm pretty sure Seatlle's DH and Baltimore's would like to have a talk with you.

Yeah? What would we talk about? How Russell Branyan and Luke Scott are infinitely better than Mark Kotsay?

TDog
07-28-2010, 11:08 AM
... I'm guessing Ozzie pulls him aside and asks him to be a little more careful with what he says.

I'm not commenting on the substance of the debate, but just to say I feel I've awaken in the bizzaro world when I read untealed posts that reach this conclusion.

Noneck
07-28-2010, 11:15 AM
It is nice to see a veteran player speak his mind, even though he has only been on the team for less than a year. Leadership qualities in my mind, wish more would be like that.

hi im skot
07-28-2010, 11:18 AM
Wooo! I don't see Mark Kotsay's name anywhere on there woooo!

Do you understand the splits, or are you really that excited that Mark Kotsay (or any other individual player for that matter) isn't listed?

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 11:20 AM
Do you understand the splits, or are you really that excited that Mark Kotsay (or any other individual player for that matter) isn't listed?
Is there anyway to get our DH splits for all Dh's not named Mark Kotsay? I'm just curious how it looks when you remove his stats.

LoveYourSuit
07-28-2010, 11:22 AM
It is nice to see a veteran player speak his mind, even though he has only been on the team for less than a year. Leadership qualities in my mind, wish more would be like that.

Yeah, I wish more players would be like this.

I am tired of the "macho" crap that comes out of these guys who basically will sit there and tell you "we are fine, we don't need any help."

kittle42
07-28-2010, 11:23 AM
Vizquel is right, and said so without running down any of his teammates in particular. Ozzie himself knows this team would be better with a move, but he says what he has to. Kudos to Omar - I am tired of sports being treated like politics.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 11:24 AM
Yeah, I wish more players would be like this.

I am tired of the "macho" crap that comes out of these guys who basically will sit there and tell you "we are fine, we don't need any help."

I don't think it's macho, I think most guys are smart enough to know how they'll sound if they got out on a limb like Omar did. If I were a pro athlete, the last thing I'd want is to give a bunch of d-bag reporters a reason to follow me around. Give the vanilla answer and everyone leaves you alone.

canOcorn
07-28-2010, 11:29 AM
Is there anyway to get our DH splits for all Dh's not named Mark Kotsay? I'm just curious how it looks when you remove his stats.

Just look up Kotsay's splits and then cover your eyes. His stats are worse as a DH than his already underwhelming overall numbers. And that's why he's the least productive DH in baseball this year (at least that gets regular playing time).

Noneck
07-28-2010, 11:31 AM
I don't think it's macho, I think most guys are smart enough to know how they'll sound if they got out on a limb like Omar did. If I were a pro athlete, the last thing I'd want is to give a bunch of d-bag reporters a reason to follow me around. Give the vanilla answer and everyone leaves you alone.

That is true but no way of knowing but I sure hope the long time veterans are knocking on managements door and reminding them of the promises given, if the team was in contention at mid year.

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 11:38 AM
Do you understand the splits, or are you really that excited that Mark Kotsay (or any other individual player for that matter) isn't listed?

Do you understand Mark Kotsay is one of the worst DH's in the history of the league, and our manager is running him out there for a pace of 400 PA's this year?

Zakath
07-28-2010, 11:54 AM
HOLY ****!!!!

Forget what I said about Baltimore.

They're also 31-69 and 32 1/2 games out of first, so DH appears to be the only bright spot on a really ****ty team.

I never thought I'd see a team at this stage of the season where the pitcher with the most wins had 4.

russ99
07-28-2010, 12:24 PM
Do you understand Mark Kotsay is one of the worst DH's in the history of the league, and our manager is running him out there for a pace of 400 PA's this year?

Wrong. He's played 35 games at DH, 20 at 1B and 6 in the outfield. So out of his 222 ABs, how many were at DH?

Not saying that Kotsay's done well, but our other DHs haven't been great shakes either.

It's Dankerific
07-28-2010, 12:28 PM
E tu, Omar?



What happened to the Grammar Police?

Et tu, Omar...

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 12:41 PM
Wrong. He's played 35 games at DH, 20 at 1B and 6 in the outfield. So out of his 222 ABs, how many were at DH?

Not saying that Kotsay's done well, but our other DHs haven't been great shakes either.

Wrong what? He is on pace for over 400 plate appearances. Who cares if he played first base in some of those games? It's just a shell game, as he is still getting the at bats and is our regular DH. Konerko is our first baseman.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 12:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5415535

I don't know if I have ever heard a player just come out and say this. Even Ozzie wasn't really happy with Omar over it.

Good for Omar. If he is saying it, the players feel it too. It isn't personal Kotsay, it is just about winning.

Edit: Sorry, I am not sure if this is a clubhouse or WTS thread, but it isn't much speculation as much as a current player commenting.

Well no kidding it's not personal. Kotsay is the least productive DH in the history of the league. Only our fearless manager and a few of his followers can't seem to realize that.

And you'd both be wrong in assuming it's the DH the players want most.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 12:48 PM
And you'd both be wrong in assuming it's the DH the players want most.

I didn't say it was, but its clear they do want an upgrade in the lineup. Even you can't defend Kotsay out their 5 days a week. He is one of the worst "regulars" in the mlb.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 12:50 PM
I didn't say it was, but its clear they do want an upgrade in the lineup. Even you can't defend Kotsay out their 5 days a week. He is one of the worst "regulars" in the mlb.


"Good for Omar. If he is saying it, the players feel it too. It isn't personal Kotsay, it is just about winning."

That's you talking in the very first post. Your assumption is that the players want to replace Kotsay. I'm telling you that you're wrong in assuming that.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 12:53 PM
"Good for Omar. If he is saying it, the players feel it too. It isn't personal Kotsay, it is just about winning."

That's you talking in the very first post. Your assumption is that the players want to replace Kotsay. I'm telling you that you're wrong in assuming that.

I would bet there are players who would like more than an automatic out in the 6 hole. I didn't say it was the first choice. I am sure there are players who don't want Hudson learning at the big league level while they play for the central. I am sure there are vets who feel Mark Kotsay has earned the right to suck. But I bet there are some logical ones who realize how big a real hitter might be.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 12:53 PM
"Good for Omar. If he is saying it, the players feel it too. It isn't personal Kotsay, it is just about winning."

That's you talking in the very first post. Your assumption is that the players want to replace Kotsay. I'm telling you that you're wrong in assuming that.

Whatever, it's trickle down theory, anybody that gets brougt in, by default, would have to be better than Kotsay. That's got to cut into his at bats eventually, right? How many more better players can the Sox stuff on their bench before Ozzie has to start letting go.

soltrain21
07-28-2010, 12:54 PM
"Good for Omar. If he is saying it, the players feel it too. It isn't personal Kotsay, it is just about winning."

That's you talking in the very first post. Your assumption is that the players want to replace Kotsay. I'm telling you that you're wrong in assuming that.

Who is going to admit they want that? I don't walk around my work saying someone should be replaced even if I think they should.

What Omar said is completely out of the norm to SAY it, but I'm sure there are tons of players in the MLB who feel certain guys need to be replaced.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Who is going to admit they want that? I don't walk around my work saying someone should be replaced even if I think they should.

What Omar said is completely out of the norm to SAY it, but I'm sure there are tons of players in the MLB who feel certain guys need to be replaced.

Since you're all failing to read between the lines, I'll help you. The players think they need another pitcher, not someone to replace Kotsay.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 12:56 PM
Since you're all failing to read between the lines, I'll help you. The players think they need another pitcher, not someone to replace Kotsay.

They may think that's #1, but I doubt anyone in the clubhouse seriously believes the Sox can't possibly improve the Kotsay situation.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 01:00 PM
I am sure a big part of it is Kotsay is extremely popular in the clubhouse. I would imagine he is a very decent guy ans a solid leader. You don't root against your best friend. It happens at every level. In high school and college I know I would get more pissed at a freshman struggling and not helping versus an upperclassman.

However, like I said, these guys KNOW the truth that Kotsay can't cut it.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:00 PM
They may think that's #1, but I doubt anyone in the clubhouse seriously believes the Sox can't possibly improve the Kotsay situation.

Direct quote from one player in particular:

Him: "We all know what we need in here."

Me: "What's that?"

Him: "Another pitcher."

Can't be any clearer than that.

soltrain21
07-28-2010, 01:02 PM
Direct quote from one player in particular:

Him: "We all know what we need in here."

Me: "What's that?"

Him: "Another pitcher."

Can't be any clearer than that.

Cool, you interviewed Mark Kotsay.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:02 PM
I am sure a big part of it is Kotsay is extremely popular in the clubhouse. I would imagine he is a very decent guy ans a solid leader. You don't root against your best friend. It happens at every level. In high school and college I know I would get more pissed at a freshman struggling and not helping versus an upperclassman.

However, like I said, these guys KNOW the truth that Kotsay can't cut it.

How can you possibly know what they know or know what they think? You can try to twist this as much as you want to fit what you believe, but I am telling you, with direct knowledge, that the players aren't thinking they need a bat. they're thinking they need a starting pitcher.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 01:03 PM
Cool, you interviewed Mark Kotsay.

:rolling:

doublem23
07-28-2010, 01:03 PM
Cool, you interviewed Mark Kotsay.

:rolling:

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Don't argue with Ranger about Kotsay. He says thinks that Konerko wouldn't be playing this well and that the team would have folded without Kotsay. Or he thinks that is what the team thinks. Who knows :rolleyes:

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Cool, you interviewed Mark Kotsay.

Funny, but nope. It wasn't an interview and it was not Kotsay.

It's Dankerific
07-28-2010, 01:05 PM
another pitcher eh?!?!

I have an idea....

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:06 PM
Don't argue with Ranger about Kotsay. He says thinks that Konerko wouldn't be playing this well and that the team would have folded without Kotsay. Or he thinks that is what the team thinks. Who knows :rolleyes:

So you're saying that I don't know what I'm talking about? Fine. Believe what you want, but I know for a fact what they, as a whole, think they need. I'm not making guesses.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 01:06 PM
Cool, you interviewed Mark Kotsay.

:rolling:

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 01:09 PM
So you're saying that I don't know what I'm talking about? Fine. Believe what you want, but I know for a fact what they, as a whole, think they need. I'm not making guesses.

I guess it is good that Kenny gets the final say then. I mean yes, another pitcher can only help. Hudson doesn't appear to have that 'toughness' about him to pitch down the stretch as a rookie.

It still doesn't change the fact you could subsititute almost any hitter in place of Kotsay in the lineup and get the same or better results. He has given us nothing offensively this year. He brings intangibles and leadership, so you don't cut him, but this team is not good enough, even with another starting pitcher, to win a world title with Kotsay as the DH.

kufram
07-28-2010, 01:10 PM
I think there is a clubhouse dynamic going on with this team that KW and OG know better than to mess with lightly. It's easy to say that guy will hit us 25 home runs and the guy we have will only hit two, but it is not a one dimensional scenario.

A pitcher is the better add.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 01:10 PM
So you're saying that I don't know what I'm talking about? Fine. Believe what you want, but I know for a fact what they, as a whole, think they need. I'm not making guesses.

No, I'm saying that just because they think they need a starting pitcher doesn't also mean they think they need a real DH. Maybe we wouldn't have this problem if Ozzie would have been DHing Viciedo for the past month, maybe not. But Kotsay obviously can't hit cause we traded BA for him.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:13 PM
I guess it is good that Kenny gets the final say then. I mean yes, another pitcher can only help. Hudson doesn't appear to have that 'toughness' about him to pitch down the stretch as a rookie.

It still doesn't change the fact you could subsititute almost any hitter in place of Kotsay in the lineup and get the same or better results. He has given us nothing offensively this year. He brings intangibles and leadership, so you don't cut him, but this team is not good enough, even with another starting pitcher, to win a world title with Kotsay as the DH.

Obviously, their situation would be improved if they added a hitter. I'm not arguing against that. What I'm saying is that the players believe they'd be better off getting a starting pitcher because of Freddy/Hudson concern.

And in my opinion, I think they score enough to win but they are going to live and die by that rotation. If that rotation has trouble with 4 and 5 down the stretch, regardless of who the DH is, they're gonna be in trouble.

It's Dankerific
07-28-2010, 01:16 PM
And in my opinion, I think they score enough to win but they are going to live and die by that rotation. If that rotation has trouble with 4 and 5 down the stretch, regardless of who the DH is, they're gonna be in trouble.

In my opinion, that isnt much of a concern. I think they can win the division as is, right now.

but they can't win in the playoffs with Kotsay, and a 4th or 5th pitcher isnt that important in a playoff series.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 01:17 PM
Obviously, their situation would be improved if they added a hitter. I'm not arguing against that. What I'm saying is that the players believe they'd be better off getting a starting pitcher because of Freddy/Hudson concern.

And in my opinion, I think they score enough to win but they are going to live and die by that rotation. If that rotation has trouble with 4 and 5 down the stretch, regardless of who the DH is, they're gonna be in trouble.

It all depends what your goal is I guess. I think, this team as is, has a 50-50 shot to win a division. That said, without Peavy, the playoffs are grim. Buehrle is the weakest number 1 of potential playoff teams. Danks and Floyd are so hit or miss. Danks can pitch with anyone, but if he has a bad game we are screwed. Floyd has to step up in a big playoff game, he hurt us vs TB in 2008. It isn't that I am down on our guys, but there isn't 1 proven guy there. Danks is close, but Buehrle has looked fairly average in his playoff career.

Game 4, do you go 3 man, do you go 4 and Give Freddy the Ball and hope he scatters 8 or 9 hits over 6 or 7.

We will face some TOUGH TOUGH teams in the playoffs with great pitching. We will need to be able to score via the home run and with the smaller ball. If we go a week without hitting a homer we will be bounced.

I am in the group that has a tough time enjoying a first round playoff exit. It feels stuck in the mud to me. If we can only make 1 move, me, personally, I flip the coin we win the division with a better DH because in October it helps us more than a number 4 or 5 SP.

Noneck
07-28-2010, 01:18 PM
Direct quote from one player in particular:

Him: "We all know what we need in here."

Me: "What's that?"

Him: "Another pitcher."

Can't be any clearer than that.

Hope you told him that you were just a radio personality and that he should go up upstairs and tell them .

hawkjt
07-28-2010, 01:20 PM
Once again, I point out that even Omar said ''IF NOT A PITCHER,THEN A HITTER''....so this jibes with what Ranger is saying...the players want another starter. Lets face it, Hudson is a newbie,with no real equity built up with the clubhouse. Kotsay has been there thru thick and thin,mainly thin for him, but the players are going to favor him over a newcomer like Hudson...and they probably really believe in the ''pitching and defense'' approach that has been stressed by Ozzie since January.

I hope kenny can find a vet servicable 5th starter. If you trot out starters who give you a good chance to win every day the last 63 games...it will work out better over the long run. Hitting comes and goes, but good starting pitching is like the sun..comes up every day.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:20 PM
I think there is a clubhouse dynamic going on with this team that KW and OG know better than to mess with lightly. It's easy to say that guy will hit us 25 home runs and the guy we have will only hit two, but it is not a one dimensional scenario.

A pitcher is the better add.

Yes. They always consider clubhouse dynamic when they make trades, that's why they always talk about the "right fit". That's not to say that if they could get Pujols, they would say "well, he might not be a goof fit for this clubhouse." Of course they wouldn't say that on a player of his caliber. But they aren't gonna be getting anyone like him, so the other intangible stuff is stuff they have to consider. Basically, if the guy isn't going to come in here and hit .320, hit 45 HRs and drive in 150 for a full season, there are other things to think about besides individual numbers. this isn't fantasy baseball.

What this team currently thinks would give them the best edge is to pick up a starter. Now, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get a hitter, it just means that if they could only have one thing, a starting pitcher would be preferable to them.

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 01:21 PM
And you'd both be wrong in assuming it's the DH the players want most.

Well then you, Ozzie and all of our players are wrong if they don't want Kotsay out of the lineup. I wouldn't mind picking up a starter, but I know we need a bat more.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 01:24 PM
Ranger, honest question, why won't Ozzie DH the Tank?

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:25 PM
It all depends what your goal is I guess. I think, this team as is, has a 50-50 shot to win a division. That said, without Peavy, the playoffs are grim. Buehrle is the weakest number 1 of potential playoff teams. Danks and Floyd are so hit or miss. Danks can pitch with anyone, but if he has a bad game we are screwed. Floyd has to step up in a big playoff game, he hurt us vs TB in 2008. It isn't that I am down on our guys, but there isn't 1 proven guy there. Danks is close, but Buehrle has looked fairly average in his playoff career.

Game 4, do you go 3 man, do you go 4 and Give Freddy the Ball and hope he scatters 8 or 9 hits over 6 or 7.

We will face some TOUGH TOUGH teams in the playoffs with great pitching. We will need to be able to score via the home run and with the smaller ball. If we go a week without hitting a homer we will be bounced.

I am in the group that has a tough time enjoying a first round playoff exit. It feels stuck in the mud to me. If we can only make 1 move, me, personally, I flip the coin we win the division with a better DH because in October it helps us more than a number 4 or 5 SP.

I think you're actually making the case for getting another pitcher more than you are for getting another hitter.


Once again, I point out that even Omar said ''IF NOT A PITCHER,THEN A HITTER''....so this jibes with what Ranger is saying...the players want another starter. Lets face it, Hudson is a newbie,with no real equity built up with the clubhouse. Kotsay has been there thru thick and thin,mainly thin for him, but the players are going to favor him over a newcomer like Hudson...and they probably really believe in the ''pitching and defense'' approach that has been stressed by Ozzie since January.

I hope kenny can find a vet servicable 5th starter. If you trot out starters who give you a good chance to win every day the last 63 games...it will work out better over the long run. Hitting comes and goes, but good starting pitching is like the sun..comes up every day.

Players tend to feel more comfortable when they know they've got a good starter going. Changes the vibe of the game, really. That's how they look at it anyway.

Iwritecode
07-28-2010, 01:25 PM
I guess it is good that Kenny gets the final say then. I mean yes, another pitcher can only help. Hudson doesn't appear to have that 'toughness' about him to pitch down the stretch as a rookie.

It still doesn't change the fact you could subsititute almost any hitter in place of Kotsay in the lineup and get the same or better results. He has given us nothing offensively this year. He brings intangibles and leadership, so you don't cut him, but this team is not good enough, even with another starting pitcher, to win a world title with Kotsay as the DH.


But are they good enough to win the division with Dunn as the DH and Garcia and Hudson as the #4 and #5?

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:28 PM
Ranger, honest question, why won't Ozzie DH the Tank?

Because they want him to play the field and because he has to play the field when Vizquel takes the day off.

The overall feeling with Viciedo is that if he's going to play, he's not going to just be a hitter. When/if he eventually becomes an everyday regular, he's going to be a position player, not a DH.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 01:29 PM
I think you're actually making the case for getting another pitcher more than you are for getting another hitter.




Players tend to feel more comfortable when they know they've got a good starter going. Changes the vibe of the game, really. That's how they look at it anyway.

Depends WHO the Pitcher is. Roy Oswalt, yes huge. Jake Westbrook...meh.

I guess you could break me down as I feel for this team

Number 1 SP > Fielder > Dunn> 2nd tier DH (Laroche) > 5th SP.

Domeshot17
07-28-2010, 01:30 PM
Because they want him to play the field and because he has to play the field when Vizquel takes the day off.

The overall feeling with Viciedo is that if he's going to play, he's not going to just be a hitter. When/if he eventually becomes an everyday regular, he's going to be a position player, not a DH.

Which do you feel, honestly, gives us a better chance to win daily considering offense and defense...

Dayan at 3rd and the Jones/Kotsay tandem in the lineup

or

Omar at 3rd and Dayan at DH.

It is a no brainer to me.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:32 PM
But are they good enough to win the division with Dunn as the DH and Garcia and Hudson as the #4 and #5?

That's the good question. I think that they can win it even as they are now, but their situation would most greatly be improved if they added a starter just because of the uncertainty with 4 and 5.

Not that Freddy has given any indication he's going to slow down, but there is that chance because of his health. And Hudson may not figure out how to pitch in the Major Leagues before this season is over. If the worst case scenario happens for both of them, the Sox will have a similar situation as the Colon/Contreras combo. Obviously, not nearly as frightening, but if they're struggling at 4/5, they're struggling at 4/5. Regardless of who they have pitching.

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 01:35 PM
Depends WHO the Pitcher is. Roy Oswalt, yes huge. Jake Westbrook...meh.

I guess you could break me down as I feel for this team

Number 1 SP > Fielder > Dunn> 2nd tier DH (Laroche) > 5th SP.

Which do you feel, honestly, gives us a better chance to win daily considering offense and defense...

Dayan at 3rd and the Jones/Kotsay tandem in the lineup

or

Omar at 3rd and Dayan at DH.

It is a no brainer to me.

Right on. Well put. There is no doubt this is best for the team.

soltrain21
07-28-2010, 01:35 PM
Which do you feel, honestly, gives us a better chance to win daily considering offense and defense...

Dayan at 3rd and the Jones/Kotsay tandem in the lineup

or

Omar at 3rd and Dayan at DH.

It is a no brainer to me.

Yes, Dayan can still play the field when Omar needs a day off, anyway. If they view him as a fielder in the future should have no barring on whether or not he is a DH on certain days. There is no difference between DHing and sitting the bench - either way he isn't on the field.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:36 PM
Depends WHO the Pitcher is. Roy Oswalt, yes huge. Jake Westbrook...meh.

I guess you could break me down as I feel for this team

Number 1 SP > Fielder > Dunn> 2nd tier DH (Laroche) > 5th SP.

I agree with the last part there, but I also would be happy with any solid starter, even if he isn't an Oswalt-type. I think down the stretch it's going to make a bigger difference to have a solid starter every single day, than to have 3 good ones and 2 that may or may not be bad.

Slappy
07-28-2010, 01:37 PM
That's the good question. I think that they can win it even as they are now, but their situation would most greatly be improved if they added a starter just because of the uncertainty with 4 and 5.

Not that Freddy has given any indication he's going to slow down, but there is that chance because of his health. And Hudson may not figure out how to pitch in the Major Leagues before this season is over. If the worst case scenario happens for both of them, the Sox will have a similar situation as the Colon/Contreras combo. Obviously, not nearly as frightening, but if they're struggling at 4/5, they're struggling at 4/5. Regardless of who they have pitching.

Win it all? As in World Series? I wish I was as sure as you about that.

I still feel strongly that we need both a starter and a bat to be serious contenders.

twinsuck
07-28-2010, 01:37 PM
another pitcher eh?!?!

I have an idea....
I see what you did there. Get the Royals on the phone right away!!

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 01:38 PM
Because they want him to play the field and because he has to play the field when Vizquel takes the day off.

The overall feeling with Viciedo is that if he's going to play, he's not going to just be a hitter. When/if he eventually becomes an everyday regular, he's going to be a position player, not a DH.

So they think not hitting or fielding is better than hitting but not fielding? :scratch:

If that is legit, then this organization is dumb as rocks.

Noneck
07-28-2010, 01:42 PM
This team was constructed based on pitching strength. I think they should try to get a quality pitcher but there sure isn't anything wrong with getting a left handed bat also. Try to do both and I hope management does what they promised to do if the Sox were contenders at this stage of season. Playing the hand they were dealt is not the same hand with Peavy gone.

Iwritecode
07-28-2010, 01:46 PM
I still feel strongly that we need both a starter and a bat to be serious contenders.

I think that is actually the best possible outcome. It's just a matter of if KW can pull it off.

cards press box
07-28-2010, 01:46 PM
WOOOOO HYPERBOLE!

Someone posted this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats_lg.cgi?full=1&params=defp%7Cas%20DH%7CAL%7C2010%7Cbat%7CAB%7C) recently.

So, let me get this straight: the Yankees' DH's rank 7th in the AL with 13 HR 48 RBI and a .251 average and Sox' DH's rank 11th with 13 HR 43 RBI and a .227 average. That's just as much of a difference as one would expect. Both teams have DH production that has been spotty. However, the fates of each team will not rest on their DH's but rather their starting pitchers.

Since you're all failing to read between the lines, I'll help you. The players think they need another pitcher, not someone to replace Kotsay.

The players' position makes all the sense in the world. If the Sox could add a veteran like Jake Westbrook or Ted Lilly, that would be a huge addition. Right now, I'm leaning toward Lilly even though he is a flyball pitcher and the Sox play in U.S. Cellular. To make the playoffs, the Sox have to beat the lefty dominant Twins and in the playoffs, the Sox would have to face the lefty dominant Yankees and Rays. Lilly would give the Sox a third lefty starter and, if the Sox elected to go with Freddy Garcia as the fourth starter in a particular playoff series, Lilly would be another lefty out of the pen.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:48 PM
So they think not hitting or fielding is better than hitting but not fielding? :scratch:

If that is legit, then this organization is dumb as rocks.

They really aren't dumb. Like I've said before, he's going to get the appropriate amount of PAs he needs for this year of development. But when he plays, they want him in the field.

What people are forgetting is that Kotsay has DH'd only 35 times this year and they're about to play their 100th game tonight. What that means is, when he's been playing, he's relieving Konerko or someone else form the field for that day. I know somebody joked about it earlier that I think Konerko has been helped this year by getting days off....well, um yeah, I kinda do think that. And so do they.

And since it doesn't appear they're ready to give up on Viciedo at 3rd yet, it doesn't make sense to have him play 1B for PK when he sits.

kobo
07-28-2010, 01:51 PM
In my opinion, that isnt much of a concern. I think they can win the division as is, right now.

but they can't win in the playoffs with Kotsay, and a 4th or 5th pitcher isnt that important in a playoff series.
They won't win a damn thing if Garcia and Hudson can't hold down their spots in the rotation. We have no idea how Hudson is going to pan out and Garcia could end up being abysmal the last month of the season. Freddy has been great this year, but in the back of my mind is the thought that he could either start to suck or he'll get hurt. Ranger is right, they are going to live and die by the rotation.

And that's bull**** that they can't win in the playoffs if Kotsay is the DH. You're placing emphasis on one spot in the lineup when in the playoffs it's more about pitching and defense. I'm not a Kotsay fan by any means, but to imply they can't win in the playoffs because of Mark Kotsay is ridiculous.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 01:52 PM
So, let me get this straight: the Yankees' DH's rank 7th in the AL with 13 HR 48 RBI and a .251 average and Sox' DH's rank 11th with 13 HR 43 RBI and a .227 average. That's just as much of a difference as one would expect. Both teams have DH production that has been spotty. However, the fates of each team will not rest on their DH's but rather their starting pitchers.

The difference, though, is the Yankees can hide their spotty DH production behind the other thunderous bats in their lineup... We don't have an A-Rod, Teixeira, Granderson, or Cano in our lineup. Kotsay, for the most part, has been batting 5th or 6th in the Sox's order.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 01:53 PM
So, let me get this straight: the Yankees' DH's rank 7th in the AL with 13 HR 48 RBI and a .251 average and Sox' DH's rank 11th with 13 HR 43 RBI and a .227 average. That's just as much of a difference as one would expect. Both teams have DH production that has been spotty. However, the fates of each team will not rest on

Yes.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 02:11 PM
Yes.

Silly. Even with similar (though, not really) production from the DH spot, the Yankees still have arguably the best offense in the American League. OK, they haven't been lighting the world on fire with their DH, but when you're scoring over 5 1/2 runs per game, what's the difference?

The Sox are, at best a slightly above average offense, but that's being very generous. They're still below league average in OBP and XBH. So it is more concerning for us that we find someone who can handle the bat in a spot designed solely for offense. We obviously don't have the unlimited payroll the Yankees can afford, so we can't bring in a lot of guys like Rios and Konerko who are stellar defensively and offensively. We're just pissing at bats away marching Kotsay up there every night. It's embarrassing.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 02:11 PM
They really aren't dumb. Like I've said before, he's going to get the appropriate amount of PAs he needs for this year of development. But when he plays, they want him in the field.

What people are forgetting is that Kotsay has DH'd only 35 times this year and they're about to play their 100th game tonight. What that means is, when he's been playing, he's relieving Konerko or someone else form the field for that day. I know somebody joked about it earlier that I think Konerko has been helped this year by getting days off....well, um yeah, I kinda do think that. And so do they.

And since it doesn't appear they're ready to give up on Viciedo at 3rd yet, it doesn't make sense to have him play 1B for PK when he sits.

No, it really is dumb. 400 PAs is "appropriate"? (I'm not exactly sure what "appropriate" even means, but it's a different argument) How is 450 not better? :rolleyes:

Listen, I have no issue with Kotsay getting some PT, but if it comes down to who should DH between him and Viciedo, it should be Viciedo 95% of the time.

If they think riding the pine is better than DHing, then they are 100% absolutely wrong.

canOcorn
07-28-2010, 02:22 PM
They really aren't dumb. Like I've said before, he's going to get the appropriate amount of PAs he needs for this year of development. But when he plays, they want him in the field.

That's a complete and utter load of crap. You're telling me his development is improved getting 9-10 AB's a week? Bull****.

What people are forgetting is that Kotsay has DH'd only 35 times this year and they're about to play their 100th game tonight. What that means is, when he's been playing, he's relieving Konerko or someone else form the field for that day. I know somebody joked about it earlier that I think Konerko has been helped this year by getting days off....well, um yeah, I kinda do think that. And so do they.


Kotsay has 15 AB's as a RF, 73 AB's as a 1B and 134 as a DH, so that doesn't mean "when he's playing, he's relieving someone else from the field that day." What's unbelievable is that this insanely substandard offensive player has received 190 AB's batting 3rd, 5th or 6th.

And since it doesn't appear they're ready to give up on Viciedo at 3rd yet, it doesn't make sense to have him play 1B for PK when he sits.

Actually, it seems quite apparent that he has no long term future at 3B, hence his moving to 1B at Charlotte.

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 02:29 PM
i think the reason tank was brought up and is getting limited AB's is b/c their showcasing him for a trade be it for a big guy like dunn or oswalt to a lesser player, i think he'll be apart of any trade.
But you guys w the kotsay stuff--everyone knows he sucks, they burned his f'ing bats before the game yesterday and showed it on CSN, but for some reason they love him here so unfortunately it doesn't seem like he's going anywhere, lets just hope that he can turn it around

Boondock Saint
07-28-2010, 02:29 PM
That's a complete and utter load of crap. You're telling me his development is improved getting 9-10 AB's a week? Bull****.




Kotsay has 15 AB's as a RF, 73 AB's as a 1B and 134 as a DH, so that doesn't mean "when he's playing, he's relieving someone else from the field that day." What's unbelievable is that this insanely substandard offensive player has received 190 AB's batting 3rd, 5th or 6th.



Actually, it seems quite apparent that he has no long term future at 3B, hence his moving to 1B at Charlotte.

Good points all around. Viciedo is only getting time at 3B up here because Teahen got hurt, and he'll likely go back to playing 1B when Teahen comes back and he gets sent back down, with Teahen playing backup to Vizquel. And Kotsay isn't just playing DH for us, he's also routinely getting placed in a key RBI spot in the lineup, when it's clear that there are other players who are outperforming him.

Noneck
07-28-2010, 02:34 PM
That's a complete and utter load of crap. You're telling me his development is improved getting 9-10 AB's a week? Bull****.






I am with you on that. A 20 year old kid with a future, should not be on a club unless he plays. The kid definitely needs seasoning in the field, either at 1st or 3rd, unless his future is at DH. If that is the case then let him DH. If not, let him get his seasoning in the field in the minors. 9-10 AB's a week is doing nothing for him.

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 02:44 PM
do you guys not see their only playing Tank in situations where he can showcase his talent at the plate (for example last night) b/c they're getting ready to trade him?
nothing else could explain why they aren't DH'ing him

SephClone89
07-28-2010, 02:45 PM
do you guys not see their only playing Tank in situations where he can showcase his talent at the plate (for example last night) b/c they're getting ready to trade him?
nothing else could explain why they aren't DH'ing him

Huh?:scratch:

Noneck
07-28-2010, 02:46 PM
do you guys not see their only playing Tank in situations where he can showcase his talent at the plate (for example last night) b/c they're getting ready to trade him?
nothing else could explain why they aren't DH'ing him

Only if that happens, the situation makes sense.

kobo
07-28-2010, 02:49 PM
Good points all around. Viciedo is only getting time at 3B up here because Teahen got hurt, and he'll likely go back to playing 1B when Teahen comes back and he gets sent back down, with Teahen playing backup to Vizquel. And Kotsay isn't just playing DH for us, he's also routinely getting placed in a key RBI spot in the lineup, when it's clear that there are other players who are outperforming him.
Like who?

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 02:57 PM
Huh?:scratch:
what i'm saying instead of dh'ing him everyday where his flaws may be exposed, he's being put in optimal situations (like last night against RRS) where he has a higher % of chance to succeed, so he looks better for opposing teams, in the event that there is a trade (most likely to a NL team hence why he only plays while fielding) is the only way i could make sense out of the situation

Boondock Saint
07-28-2010, 02:58 PM
Like who?

Alexei, Beckham and Viciedo.

kobo
07-28-2010, 03:21 PM
Alexei, Beckham and Viciedo.
So, you want one of those guys hitting in Kotsay's spot in the lineup? Then what would your ideal lineup look like?

hawkjt
07-28-2010, 03:24 PM
i think the reason tank was brought up and is getting limited AB's is b/c their showcasing him for a trade be it for a big guy like dunn or oswalt to a lesser player, i think he'll be apart of any trade.
But you guys w the kotsay stuff--everyone knows he sucks, they burned his f'ing bats before the game yesterday and showed it on CSN, but for some reason they love him here so unfortunately it doesn't seem like he's going anywhere, lets just hope that he can turn it around


The whole point of burning his bats was a statement of support from the other players who recognize that he has been cursed this year with his frequent hard hit balls finding a fielder, capped off by the Monday nite line drive to first and homer that Ichiro took away.
His numbers have sucked but clearly his % of hits/balls in play is unbelievably low,which suggests bad luck.

Dan H
07-28-2010, 03:25 PM
I don't know what the players are thinking, but I think expectations of Hudson are too high. You can call him the #5 pitcher but he was brought to replace Peavy who was starting to pitch like an ace. The White Sox need a starter. The offense has improved from its dismal start but it will have a hard time overcoming any potential failings of Hudson and or Garcia. Pitching can overcome a lot. Hitting can be stopped at any time.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 03:28 PM
I don't know what the players are thinking, but I think expectations of Hudson are too high. You can call him the #5 pitcher but he was brought to replace Peavy who was starting to pitch like an ace. The White Sox need a starter. The offense has improved from its dismal start but it will have a hard time overcoming any potential failings of Hudson and or Garcia. Pitching can overcome a lot. Hitting can be stopped at any time.

He wasn't brought here to replace Peavy, he was brought in to fill his spot in the rotation. With Danks and Floyd pitching as well as they have lately, there's no reason for Hudson to feel he has to step up and be an ace of this staff, nor does he need to. As long as Buehrle, Garcia, and Hudson pitch as well as they're capbable of, this team is fine.

Craig Grebeck
07-28-2010, 03:31 PM
Sure, Kotsay has spelled Konerko at 1B. So can Teahen, and he actually can swing the bat (just a little bit, though).

Boondock Saint
07-28-2010, 03:31 PM
So, you want one of those guys hitting in Kotsay's spot in the lineup? Then what would your ideal lineup look like?

Pierre LF
Vizquel 3B
Rios CF
Konerko !B (that was initially a typo, but he's really kicking ass this year, so I decided to keep the exclamation point there)
Quentin RF
Alexei SS
Beckham 2B
Viciedo DH
AJ C

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 03:33 PM
The whole point of burning his bats was a statement of support from the other players who recognize that he has been cursed this year with his frequent hard hit balls finding a fielder, capped off by the Monday nite line drive to first and homer that Ichiro took away.
His numbers have sucked but clearly his % of hits/balls in play is unbelievably low,which suggests bad luck.
i know i got that sorry if my post doesn't indicate that

NLaloosh
07-28-2010, 03:34 PM
It's quite obvious that this team needs a solid starting pitcher more than anything.

Garcia hasn't thrown a full season since 2006. And, he couldn't get out of the second inning in his last outing. I'm sure that even the players are wondering when he's going to burn out.

Hudson has proven nothing in the big leagues yet. That's not the way to chase for the division title.

The offense has been certainly adequate. Unfortunately, the Peavy injury squelched the all-in-for-a-big-hitter plan.

I think adding say...Lilly and Downs would help the team more than getting Dunn and it would probably cost less in prospects.

Plus, this year is so tough with Texas, Yankees and Tampa all having real good teams I'm not sure I'd want to sell the farm for this year's playoffs.

Craig Grebeck
07-28-2010, 03:40 PM
It's quite obvious that this team needs a solid starting pitcher more than anything.

Garcia hasn't thrown a full season since 2006. And, he couldn't get out of the second inning in his last outing. I'm sure that even the players are wondering when he's going to burn out.

Hudson has proven nothing in the big leagues yet. That's not the way to chase for the division title.

The offense has been certainly adequate. Unfortunately, the Peavy injury squelched the all-in-for-a-big-hitter plan.

I think adding say...Lilly and Downs would help the team more than getting Dunn and it would probably cost less in prospects.

Plus, this year is so tough with Texas, Yankees and Tampa all having real good teams I'm not sure I'd want to sell the farm for this year's playoffs.
That is most certainly false. The Jays, rightfully, want a boatload for Scott Downs.

Harry Chappas
07-28-2010, 03:42 PM
Because they want him to play the field and because he has to play the field when Vizquel takes the day off.

The overall feeling with Viciedo is that if he's going to play, he's not going to just be a hitter. When/if he eventually becomes an everyday regular, he's going to be a position player, not a DH.

Huh? This makes ZERO sense.

You're telling us that the overall feeling with Viciedo is that he is better served not playing at all than to play DH?

And what does Vizquel have to do with it? At 21, I'm pretty sure Viciedo can DH when Omar is in the lineup and play 3rd when he isn't.

Face it, continuing to give Kotsay at-bats at DH at the expense of Viciedo makes no sense. Viciedo is going to have tough nights, but do you honestly feel that he couldn't improve upon Kotsay's offensive numbers, if given the chance?

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 03:47 PM
btw i dont think getting a pitcher like ted lilly would really help us he's as good as garcia in the AL

Boondock Saint
07-28-2010, 03:50 PM
btw i dont think getting a pitcher like ted lilly would really help us he's as good as garcia in the AL

How does that not help?

Dibbs
07-28-2010, 03:52 PM
Pierre LF
Vizquel 3B
Rios CF
Konerko !B (that was initially a typo, but he's really kicking ass this year, so I decided to keep the exclamation point there)
Quentin RF
Alexei SS
Beckham 2B
Viciedo DH
AJ C

Looks perfect to me. I am anxiously awaiting someone to argue this is bad because we have a lefty batting 9th and leadoff. Kind of like how Ozzie has batted Kotsay and AJ back-to-back many times already this year.

thedudeabides
07-28-2010, 03:54 PM
It's quite obvious that this team needs a solid starting pitcher more than anything.

Garcia hasn't thrown a full season since 2006. And, he couldn't get out of the second inning in his last outing. I'm sure that even the players are wondering when he's going to burn out.

Hudson has proven nothing in the big leagues yet. That's not the way to chase for the division title.

The offense has been certainly adequate. Unfortunately, the Peavy injury squelched the all-in-for-a-big-hitter plan.

I think adding say...Lilly and Downs would help the team more than getting Dunn and it would probably cost less in prospects.

Plus, this year is so tough with Texas, Yankees and Tampa all having real good teams I'm not sure I'd want to sell the farm for this year's playoffs.

This is exactly how I feel. I think a starting pitcher is a much bigger need at this point, and I think Hudson has a good future, I'm just not convinced he is ready yet. Now is not really the time to find out. And the last thing they should do is trade Hudson for a bat and become even thinner in the rotation.

Another starting pitcher and the Sox go back to feeling confident they can win everytime out. This team is designed to win with pitching and defense. The offense is no jugernaut, but it is good enough to win with a strong staff, and is very good at winning close games.

I don't think getting Dunn is worth the cost. And Teahen is coming back, and his production from the left side may end up being as good as any of the secondary options after Dunn or Fielder(which I don't even see as being a real possibility).

If they can get to the playoffs, we'll see what happens, but right now Danks and Floyd are about as good as any one-two punch in the AL. I'll take my chances against anyone with the way they are throwing.

Harry Chappas
07-28-2010, 03:55 PM
do you guys not see their only playing Tank in situations where he can showcase his talent at the plate (for example last night) b/c they're getting ready to trade him?
nothing else could explain why they aren't DH'ing him

Completely untrue re: the lack of an explanation. According to Ranger, they aren't DH'ing him for a very good reason - because they don't want him to hit if he isn't also fielding because god knows that those MLB at-bats won't benefit him at all.

The sarcasm should be so obvious that teal isn't necessary.

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 05:02 PM
How does that not help?
we already have freddy garcia and he seems to be tailing off now. Plus, i dont think lilly's stuff is good enough for the sox

cards press box
07-28-2010, 05:21 PM
That is most certainly false. The Jays, rightfully, want a boatload for Scott Downs.

I agree that the Jays are likely to ask a lot for Scott Downs. I'm not sure they'll get as much as they seek.

As for Lilly, I'm not sure what the market for starting pitching is. Arizona didn't get back all that much for Dan Haren and his value exceeds Lilly's.

Just to show that this is not the seller's market that some think it is, the Indians just dealt (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/tigers-acquire-jhonny-peralta.html) Jhonny Peralta within the division to the Detroit Tigers for single A pitcher Giovanni Soto (not to be confused with the Cub catcher of the same name, albeit spelled differently). Peralta is not a star but is o.k. and certainly did not cost the Tigers an arm and a leg.

Craig Grebeck
07-28-2010, 05:33 PM
I agree that the Jays are likely to ask a lot for Scott Downs. I'm not sure they'll get as much as they seek.

As for Lilly, I'm not sure what the market for starting pitching is. Arizona didn't get back all that much for Dan Haren and his value exceeds Lilly's.

Just to show that this is not the seller's market that some think it is, the Indians just dealt (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/tigers-acquire-jhonny-peralta.html) Jhonny Peralta within the division to the Detroit Tigers for single A pitcher Giovanni Soto (not to be confused with the Cub catcher of the same name, albeit spelled differently). Peralta is not a star but is o.k. and certainly did not cost the Tigers an arm and a leg.
I think that has more to do with Jerry DiPoto being a complete idiot than the state of the market.

cards press box
07-28-2010, 05:38 PM
I think that has more to do with Jerry DiPoto being a complete idiot than the state of the market.

Maybe so. Given the current state of Diamondback management, perhaps the Sox can trade low level prospects to Arizona for Edwin Jackson and flip Jackson to Washington for Adam Dunn, as Jayson Stark speculated (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/edwin-jacksonadam-dunn-threeteam-rumor.html) on Monday.

Ranger
07-28-2010, 05:59 PM
No, it really is dumb. 400 PAs is "appropriate"? (I'm not exactly sure what "appropriate" even means, but it's a different argument) How is 450 not better? :rolleyes:

Listen, I have no issue with Kotsay getting some PT, but if it comes down to who should DH between him and Viciedo, it should be Viciedo 95% of the time.

If they think riding the pine is better than DHing, then they are 100% absolutely wrong.

An extra 50 PA's isn't enough to make a significant difference in his development. And 400 PA's is considered enough for a single season for a developing player. Especially one that's played winter ball, too.

Huh? This makes ZERO sense.

You're telling us that the overall feeling with Viciedo is that he is better served not playing at all than to play DH?

And what does Vizquel have to do with it? At 21, I'm pretty sure Viciedo can DH when Omar is in the lineup and play 3rd when he isn't.

Face it, continuing to give Kotsay at-bats at DH at the expense of Viciedo makes no sense. Viciedo is going to have tough nights, but do you honestly feel that he couldn't improve upon Kotsay's offensive numbers, if given the chance?

Not sure why this is tough to figure out...seems simple to me. Kotsay has been the DH about 1/3 of the year. He isn't out there every day in that spot and the DH has been rotated between Kotsay, Konerko, Quentin, and Jones for the most part. Viciedo is not going to play the outfield and he's not going to play 1st. They are still working him out as a 3B, which means he's only gonna play 3rd when Vizquel does not play. Kotsay is not taking away all of Dayan Viciedo's AB's.

Something that many of you are not realizing is that they've been doing with Viciedo what they've been doing with Santos: and that is pick his spots for him where they think he'll succeed the most for this early part of his career. This isn't unheard of. They're being careful with him and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Like you said, he's 21 years old.

WhiteSox5187
07-28-2010, 06:02 PM
An extra 50 PA's isn't enough to make a significant difference in his development. And 400 PA's is considered enough for a single season for a developing player. Especially one that's played winter ball, too.



Not sure why this is tough to figure out...seems simple to me. Kotsay has been the DH about 1/3 of the year. He isn't out there every day in that spot and the DH has been rotated between Kotsay, Konerko, Quentin, and Jones for the most part. Viciedo is not going to play the outfield and he's not going to play 1st. They are still working him out as a 3B, which means he's only gonna play 3rd when Vizquel does not play. Kotsay is not taking away all of Dayan Viciedo's AB's.

Something that many of you are not realizing is that they've been doing with Viciedo what they've been doing with Santos: and that is pick his spots for him where they think he'll succeed the most for this early part of his career. This isn't unheard of. They're being careful with him and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Like you said, he's 21 years old.

Then why did he move to first in AAA?

Noneck
07-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Something that many of you are not realizing is that they've been doing with Viciedo what they've been doing with Santos: and that is pick his spots for him where they think he'll succeed the most for this early part of his career. This isn't unheard of. They're being careful with him and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Like you said, he's 21 years old.

Analogy of comparing a 21 year old bonus baby with a 27 year old that was playing shortstop in the minors about a year ago, doesnt cut it.

A 21 year old bonus baby doesnt come up to ride a bench. I am convinced this is showcase time and I hope it works.

Lillian
07-28-2010, 06:53 PM
This is exactly how I feel. I think a starting pitcher is a much bigger need at this point, and I think Hudson has a good future, I'm just not convinced he is ready yet. Now is not really the time to find out. And the last thing they should do is trade Hudson for a bat and become even thinner in the rotation.

Another starting pitcher and the Sox go back to feeling confident they can win everytime out. This team is designed to win with pitching and defense. The offense is no jugernaut, but it is good enough to win with a strong staff, and is very good at winning close games.

I don't think getting Dunn is worth the cost. And Teahen is coming back, and his production from the left side may end up being as good as any of the secondary options after Dunn or Fielder(which I don't even see as being a real possibility).

If they can get to the playoffs, we'll see what happens, but right now Danks and Floyd are about as good as any one-two punch in the AL. I'll take my chances against anyone with the way they are throwing.

I agree with both this post, and the post it quoted.

ghostface36
07-28-2010, 07:01 PM
A 21 year old bonus baby doesnt come up to ride a bench. I am convinced this is showcase time and I hope it works.
tank was brought up right around this time to show the potential trade suitors some of what we got

NLaloosh
07-28-2010, 07:50 PM
I've got to believe that Kenny acquires a starting pitcher. This team is perilously close to having Hudson and Torres as the 4th and 5th starters.

In that case it wouldn't matter if they added Fielder and Dunn. They wouldn't go anywhere.

They need to re-solidify this pitching staff.

Sam Spade
07-28-2010, 08:39 PM
What the hell is a bonus baby?

Noneck
07-28-2010, 08:50 PM
What the hell is a bonus baby?

Someone that gets a nice fat bonus to sign. Viciedo got 4M.

LoveYourSuit
07-28-2010, 09:31 PM
An extra 50 PA's isn't enough to make a significant difference in his development. And 400 PA's is considered enough for a single season for a developing player. Especially one that's played winter ball, too.



Not sure why this is tough to figure out...seems simple to me. Kotsay has been the DH about 1/3 of the year. He isn't out there every day in that spot and the DH has been rotated between Kotsay, Konerko, Quentin, and Jones for the most part. Viciedo is not going to play the outfield and he's not going to play 1st. They are still working him out as a 3B, which means he's only gonna play 3rd when Vizquel does not play. Kotsay is not taking away all of Dayan Viciedo's AB's.

Something that many of you are not realizing is that they've been doing with Viciedo what they've been doing with Santos: and that is pick his spots for him where they think he'll succeed the most for this early part of his career. This isn't unheard of. They're being careful with him and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Like you said, he's 21 years old.


This makes no sense.
One is a hitter and the other one is a pitcher.

Did you actually hear this from the coaching staff Ranger?

Hitters need to play almost every day to get in a routine. Pitchers don't pitch every day.

whitesoxfan
07-29-2010, 09:14 AM
Plain and simple - if Viciedo isn't playing everyday, send him down to AAA where he can actually get AB's and have a chance to work on his fielding on a consistent basis.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 09:18 AM
This makes no sense.
One is a hitter and the other one is a pitcher.

Did you actually hear this from the coaching staff Ranger?

Hitters need to play almost every day to get in a routine. Pitchers don't pitch every day.

On top of that, even if they are putting Santos in "positions where he can succeed" he still pitches an awful lot. 37 appearances, 32.1 innings, those are pretty healthy numbers in the Sox bullpen.

It would be one thing if the Sox were babying Viciedo because his playing time would be hurting the team, like if he were taking at bats away from a real DH who could actually hit the ball. It makes no sense to have him ride the pine in favor of Mark Kotsay.

sox1970
07-29-2010, 09:23 AM
What the hell is a bonus baby?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Rule

It's not really a technical term anymore.

SCCWS
07-29-2010, 09:39 AM
I've got to believe that Kenny acquires a starting pitcher. This team is perilously close to having Hudson and Torres as the 4th and 5th starters.

In that case it wouldn't matter if they added Fielder and Dunn. They wouldn't go anywhere.

They need to re-solidify this pitching staff.

To solidify the team they need a hitter and a starter. Problem is they may not have enough chips ( unless they offer Beckham) to get both. Starting pitching ( other than scrap heap guys) typically costs a lot at this time of year. I don't see them offering Beckham so they may have to settle for one or gamble on a secondary hitter or starter and hope.