PDA

View Full Version : Adam Dunn Part II


Pages : [1] 2 3

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 02:07 PM
Link (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/adam-dunn-rumors-tuesday.html)

Sox are said to be the most serious suitor.

Other teams involved include the Tigers, Rangers, and of course the Yankees.

Considering the Tigers recent struggles, I could see them going hard after Dunn.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 02:19 PM
Link (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/adam-dunn-rumors-tuesday.html)

Sox are said to be the most serious suitor.

Other teams involved include the Tigers, Rangers, and of course the Yankees.

Considering the Tigers recent struggles, I could see them going hard after Dunn.
I don't see us landing Dunn because Rizzo looks like he's looking for prospects that have ceilings of first round picks in return, which makes sense because Dunn will walk away and net them a comp pick and a 1st/2nd round pick. The only guy we have that fits that bill would be Beckham who we should absolutely not even consider trading under any circumstances. Viciedo's bat is nice but his defensive woes and lack of plate discipline would have knocked him down to lower rounds.

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 02:25 PM
Tim Kurkjian believes that Adam Dunn will be traded to the Sox.

Tragg
07-27-2010, 02:35 PM
Let's just pile on every young player we have for this rental

chisoxjtrain
07-27-2010, 02:36 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

soltrain21
07-27-2010, 02:37 PM
Tim Kurkjian believes that Adam Dunn will be traded to the Sox.

http://i29.tinypic.com/vne634.jpg

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 02:37 PM
Tim Kurkjian believes that Adam Dunn will be traded to the Sox.

He said "I think Dunn may go"

That's not quite the same thing

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 02:40 PM
Let's just pile on every young player we have for this rental

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

Hudson and one of any of those 3? Where does Kenny sign?

The Sox go to a 4 man rotation by using off days and Torres makes the 7ish starts needed when off days aren't in play. Sign me up!

chisoxjtrain
07-27-2010, 02:42 PM
Hudson and one of any of those 3? Where does Kenny sign?

The Sox go to a 4 man rotation by using off days and Torres makes the 7ish starts needed when off days aren't in play. Sign me up!

I agree completely, but this is coming from Levine so I'm not going to get my hopes up.

WisSoxFan
07-27-2010, 02:42 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

If that's true then let's get a locker cleared out for Mr. Dunn. Why wouldn't you make that deal?

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 02:42 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

What would it take for us to get a new beat writer from ESPN? I'm ready to sell the farm to replace Levine.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 02:43 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

If that is the case, I would hope this trade was completed today.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 02:44 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.
Hudson is the only decent piece in there and even he's a #3 in the best case scenario. Flowers' down season lowers his stock and Danks has been sucking for a full year by now. Morel doesn't have much value since he's just a good defensive third baseman with average tools across the board. Maybe if he were a shortstop, but definitely not at the hot corner. I also would like to see what he can do with us before giving him up in a trade.

Basically, Rizzo will scoff at this and tell Kenny "Beckham or GTFO" at which point Kenny better pull out before he does something he will regret for the rest of his life.

chisoxjtrain
07-27-2010, 02:45 PM
What would it take for us to get a new beat writer from ESPN? I'm ready to sell the farm to replace Levine.

:clap: Another thing I agree with.

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 02:45 PM
I don't believe anything Levine has to say.

He's the 2nd worst Chicago baseball expert.

soltrain21
07-27-2010, 02:45 PM
I don't believe anything Levine has to say.

He's the 2nd worst Chicago baseball expert.

Who would be the first?

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 02:46 PM
Who would be the first?

I can't stand Joe Cowley

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 02:47 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

I am very reluctant to move Hudson, who is the fifth starter then? Torres? He looked ok in '09 but I'm reluctant to have a guy who feels compelled to throw from the stretch all the time as a starter in the middle of a pennant race. Pena? Ugh.

Dunn is going to be a rental, I don't want to sell the farm for three months of a guy. I'd give up Danks and Flowers and maybe even Morel, but I'm not giving up Hudson. That's just me though.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 02:48 PM
Who would be the first?

A first-place tie between every member of WSI?

Hey-oooooooh!

:D:

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 02:48 PM
What would it take for us to get a new beat writer from ESPN? I'm ready to sell the farm to replace Levine.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/33525

I was reading this chat live. I couldn't believe how he took 25 minutes to answer a White Sox question.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 02:49 PM
I can't stand Joe Cowley

Where does that put Phil Rogers then?

kittle42
07-27-2010, 02:50 PM
I am very reluctant to move Hudson, who is the fifth starter then? Torres? He looked ok in '09 but I'm reluctant to have a guy who feels compelled to throw from the stretch all the time as a starter in the middle of a pennant race. Pena? Ugh.

Dunn is going to be a rental, I don't want to sell the farm for three months of a guy. I'd give up Danks and Flowers and maybe even Morel, but I'm not giving up Hudson. That's just me though.

Just because Hudson is in this starting rotation right now does not make him all that hugely valuable of a commodity. I'd trade him in a second for a good starter/hitter. If he is the centerpiece on the Sox' side of the deal, take it in a heartbeat. As many have pointed out, that spot in the rotation's starts can be limited the rest of the way. I'll take the plug-in.

getonbckthr
07-27-2010, 02:50 PM
Perhaps KW can get Lilly. I can't imagine him demanding much of a return.

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 02:51 PM
I am very reluctant to move Hudson, who is the fifth starter then? Torres? He looked ok in '09 but I'm reluctant to have a guy who feels compelled to throw from the stretch all the time as a starter in the middle of a pennant race. Pena? Ugh.

Dunn is going to be a rental, I don't want to sell the farm for three months of a guy. I'd give up Danks and Flowers and maybe even Morel, but I'm not giving up Hudson. That's just me though.

If we don't resign Dunn, he still get the two draft picks. I would trade Hudson and Flowers just for those picks. :D:

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 02:55 PM
Just because Hudson is in this starting rotation right now does not make him all that hugely valuable of a commodity. I'd trade him in a second for a good starter/hitter. If he is the centerpiece on the Sox' side of the deal, take it in a heartbeat. As many have pointed out, that spot in the rotation's starts can be limited the rest of the way. I'll take the plug-in.

If you're going to trade Hudson for a starter, I'm all for it. For a bat? I'm more than skeptical. Those plug-in guys have cost us division titles in '03 and '04 and made life extremely difficult coming down the stretch in '08. This team is built around pitching and defense and is going to win based on that. Also increasing the load of 1-4 puts a lot of strain on guys like Freddy who have dealt with a lot of injuries in the past.

One other thing, some of the scouting reports (listed on sites like ESPN so they are not exactly infallible) have Hudson as being a potential front of the line starter in a few years. Trading a way a guy like that for three months of Dunn and then relying on the Sox scouting department not to mess up a draft is a big risk.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 02:56 PM
If we don't resign Dunn, he still get the two draft picks. I would trade Hudson and Flowers just for those picks. :D:
My only concern would be the lack of a catcher option with Flowers gone. AJ is showing signs of regression and I don't think I'd want Castro starting because he's been good for us as a backup. After Flowers is Phegley (overdraft, overdraft, overdraft), Miguel Gonzalez who is still far away and then some no-namers. If Kenny can find us a good catcher, then this deal looks a bit better. Still, I don't trust Kenny to acquire anyone good in FA and draft anybody worth a darn with the compensation from Dunn walking.

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 02:58 PM
My only concern would be the lack of a catcher option with Flowers gone. AJ is showing signs of regression and I don't think I'd want Castro starting because he's been good for us as a backup. After Flowers is Phegley (overdraft, overdraft, overdraft), Miguel Gonzalez who is still far away and then some no-namers. If Kenny can find us a good catcher, then this deal looks a bit better. Still, I don't trust Kenny to acquire anyone good in FA and draft anybody worth a darn with the compensation from Dunn walking.

Flowers can't catch.

DirtySox
07-27-2010, 03:00 PM
If we don't resign Dunn, he still get the two draft picks. I would trade Hudson and Flowers just for those picks. :D:

I wouldn't. The Sox are terrible at drafting. There is also no guarantee they get a 1st round pick out of it.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:01 PM
If you're going to trade Hudson for a starter, I'm all for it. For a bat? I'm more than skeptical. Those plug-in guys have cost us division titles in '03 and '04 and made life extremely difficult coming down the stretch in '08. This team is built around pitching and defense and is going to win based on that. Also increasing the load of 1-4 puts a lot of strain on guys like Freddy who have dealt with a lot of injuries in the past.
Fair point but I think the Sox have been great with using day-offs to run a 4-man rotation down the stretch in the past. I don't mind seeing Torres up here because he's getting older and I think he deserves a shot after two consecutive dominant minor league seasons.

One other thing, some of the scouting reports (listed on sites like ESPN so they are not exactly infallible) have Hudson as being a potential front of the line starter in a few years. Trading a way a guy like that for three months of Dunn and then relying on the Sox scouting department not to mess up a draft is a big risk.
I think it's been accepted that Hudson's a #3 at best (The Fielder rumour further confirmed this) who put himself on the map after a dominant run last year. His stuff is good but not the frontline material. Still a #3 is good considering how low he was drafted.

dickallen15
07-27-2010, 03:02 PM
I think Tyler Flowers is the most beloved 24 year old hitting .217 in AAA with a ridiculous amount of strikeouts, in history.

voodoochile
07-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Maybe we can turn that into Torres, Flowers, Danks and pick any pitching prospect in AA or below...

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:03 PM
He said "I think Dunn may go"

That's not quite the same thing

He's also said that the Sox are the frontrunners but the Tigers Yankes and I belive Rangers all remain interested. It also seems that it's near 50/50 he stays put although each day becomes more likely that he's traded.

In other words, if you split up the 50% probability Dunn is traded, the Sox are the frontrunners, but that can still mean they only have a 15 to 20% chance of landing Dunn. Certainly not a lock.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:05 PM
Flowers can't catch.
Yeah I know he will be an average catcher at best but IMHO catcher defense is seriously overrated. I'd put a lot more emphasis on defense for any other positions beside first base. All catchers ever do these days is block the balls and throw guys out, neither being the sole responsibilites of the catchers. If this year's numbers are just an aberration (which is very likely given his track record in the minors), his bat would be nice to have as a catcher.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 03:05 PM
Maybe we can turn that into Torres, Flowers, Danks and pick any pitching prospect in AA or below...

Why would anyone want Torres?

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:06 PM
I think Tyler Flowers is the most beloved 24 year old hitting .217 in AAA with a ridiculous amount of strikeouts, in history.
So, what he has done so far in the minors doesn't matter because he's having a down year which looks more like a fluke than anything?

voodoochile
07-27-2010, 03:07 PM
Why would anyone want Torres?

That's why I threw in the second pitcher...:D:

Okay, so it's a pipe dream, but it's MY pipe dream...

kittle42
07-27-2010, 03:07 PM
Yeah I know he will be an average catcher at best but IMHO catcher defense is seriously overrated. I'd put a lot more emphasis on defense for any other positions beside first base.

There is a reason why most teams don't have a great offensive catcher, and why .230 hitting backups can play for over a decade. It's just about the only position left where defense is actually more valued than hitting, and I am guessing (paging Daver) for good reasons.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 03:09 PM
Yeah I know he will be an average catcher at best but IMHO catcher defense is seriously overrated. I'd put a lot more emphasis on defense for any other positions beside first base. All catchers ever do these days is block the balls and throw guys out, neither being the sole responsibilites of the catchers. If this year's numbers are just an aberration (which is very likely given his track record in the minors), his bat would be nice to have as a catcher.

No. Catchers have to handle an entire pitching staff as well and that "block balls" is a hell of a lot harder than it looks. AJ is an average defensive catcher at best (Daver will disagree but I have no clue what measuring stick he is using, Johnny Bench maybe?), AJ is light years better than Flowers can ever hope to be. It's a dangerous spot to put a kid who is not very good defensively.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Why would anyone want Torres?

Evidently some people on this board want him as the Sox fifth starter down the stretch.

voodoochile
07-27-2010, 03:10 PM
There is a reason why most teams don't have a great offensive catcher, and why .230 hitting backups can play for over a decade. It's just about the only position left where defense is actually more valued than hitting, and I am guessing (paging Daver) for good reasons.

Given that the catcher handles the ball the second most amount of time of anyone on the field and that a good defensive catcher can save a team more runs than any other position (by blocking the vast majority of potential WP and by throwing out a lot of would be stealers - or deterring teams from stealing altogether) it's not hard to see why. Add in the ability to safe guard the only base on the field that truly matters in a close play and catch relay throws while getting hammered and still make the tag and yeah, catcher defense does matter.

In fact this is the first time I've ever seen ANYONE suggest otherwise...:scratch:

DirtySox
07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
Evidently some people on this board want him as the Sox fifth starter down the stretch.

If they aren't a fan of Hudson, things will be even worse with Torres.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
I'd trade any of those three with Hudson. Flowers is having a down year and may not be a catcher anyway, so we may have an issue at catcher with or without him. I've liked Morel since we drafted him but he projects as a slick fielder with doubles power. This coupled with the fact that Teahen is here another 2 years (plus Viciedo may stay at 3rd, although it looks unlikely) means there is no clear path for him to the majors. Danks has a ton of talent but has shown many signs of putting it together.

I make this deal in a heartbeat and go all out to try to extend Dunn. If he wants 60 mil over 4 years, he's worth it in my opinion. This guy will hit 50 hrs at the Cell over a full year.

To those worrying about a hole at the fifth starter spot if we trade Hudson, I ask you, what has Hudson shown this year to prove that we don't already have a whole hole there? He's been bad in every start. I think he'll turn it around someday but am skeptical he will help the club this year. Going with Torres for 4 or 5 innings followed by Tony Pena doesn't seem all that bad to me.

voodoochile
07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
No. Catchers have to handle an entire pitching staff as well and that "block balls" is a hell of a lot harder than it looks. AJ is an average defensive catcher at best (Daver will disagree but I have no clue what measuring stick he is using, Johnny Bench maybe?), AJ is light years better than Flowers can ever hope to be. It's a dangerous spot to put a kid who is not very good defensively.

And since he can't hit either, if the Sox can turn him into Dunn, you have to go for it...

kittle42
07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
Evidently some people on this board want him as the Sox fifth starter down the stretch.

That is actually a lot different than him having any value as a piece in a trade.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:12 PM
There is a reason why most teams don't have a great offensive catcher, and why .230 hitting backups can play for over a decade. It's just about the only position left where defense is actually more valued than hitting, and I am guessing (paging Daver) for good reasons.
I think that has a lot more to do with the physical strain on catchers. Nobody wants to play catcher if they want to have a long career because catchers flame out faster than any other guys. Why do you think the Nats drafted Harper as an outfielder? They want to keep his lower half (which drives his power by the way) fresh for a long time instead of degrading it faster as a catcher. Most talented hitters on high school and college teams are usually the shortstop, third basemen or centerfielders. When their defense doesn't cut it, they get moved to first base.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 03:13 PM
Given that the catcher handles the ball the second most amount of time of anyone on the field and that a good defensive catcher can save a team more runs than any other position (by blocking the vast majority of potential WP and by throwing out a lot of would be stealers - or deterring teams from stealing altogether) it's not hard to see why. Add in the ability to safe guard the only base on the field that truly matters in a close play and catch relay throws while getting hammered and still make the tag and yeah, catcher defense does matter.

In fact this is the first time I've ever seen ANYONE suggest otherwise...:scratch:

No offense to the poster in question, but yes, it does show a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of a key part of the game.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:19 PM
I think that has a lot more to do with the physical strain on catchers. Nobody wants to play catcher if they want to have a long career because catchers flame out faster than any other guys. Why do you think the Nats drafted Harper as an outfielder? They want to keep his lower half (which drives his power by the way) fresh for a long time instead of degrading it faster as a catcher. Most talented hitters on high school and college teams are usually the shortstop, third basemen or centerfielders. When their defense doesn't cut it, they get moved to first base.

It's also the reason why the Twins should move Mauer to the OF ASAP. It's why the Giants play Posey at 1B from time to time. It's not just the legs that go, but there's mental strain of calling a game night in and night out and there are bruises that pile up from foul tips. Guys play through it, but a bruise on your bicep or elbow sure can impact your swing.

Baseball has changed a lot from the "golden era" but teams that are strong up the middle still will have an edge to win. This means C, SS, 2B and CF. While many teams now have at least one "hitter first" guy at at least one of those spots, you can still find value for a guy that plays well there and is only a league average hitter.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 03:22 PM
I'd trade any of those three with Hudson. Flowers is having a down year and may not be a catcher anyway, so we may have an issue at catcher with or without him. I've liked Morel since we drafted him but he projects as a slick fielder with doubles power. This coupled with the fact that Teahen is here another 2 years (plus Viciedo may stay at 3rd, although it looks unlikely) means there is no clear path for him to the majors. Danks has a ton of talent but has shown many signs of putting it together.

I make this deal in a heartbeat and go all out to try to extend Dunn. If he wants 60 mil over 4 years, he's worth it in my opinion. This guy will hit 50 hrs at the Cell over a full year.

To those worrying about a hole at the fifth starter spot if we trade Hudson, I ask you, what has Hudson shown this year to prove that we don't already have a whole hole there? He's been bad in every start. I think he'll turn it around someday but am skeptical he will help the club this year. Going with Torres for 4 or 5 innings followed by Tony Pena doesn't seem all that bad to me.

Yea that start against Seattle where he gave up one run in 6.2 inning was brutal! Do the Sox have a problem at fifth starter? Yes, absolutely, and if they want to trade Hudson for a guy with a proven track record I'm all for it. But like it or not, Hudson is the best thing that this team has to offer in terms of pitching potential down on the farm. The other in house options are Carlos Torres and Jeff Marquez and neither of them are any better than Hudson. I'm not willing to throw a guy out after three starts who has Hudson's potential unless you have a guy who is better that can replace him. Right now we don't.

And since he can't hit either, if the Sox can turn him into Dunn, you have to go for it...

I'm all for trading Flowers. The guy screams first baseman to me and I think we have the first baseman of the future in Vicideo who is younger and has put up numbers comparable to Flowers.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:23 PM
No offense to the poster in question, but yes, it does show a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of a key part of the game.
Well, I won't take too much offense for being told I'm wrong for thinking my way because I'm not infallible at all. I am not the be-all-end-all truth teller and my opinions are merely opinions based on personal beliefs. If my beliefs have me thinking in a way where I'm wrong, I don't mind being told that I'm wrong as long as it's not in a very insulting way.

But anyway, IMHO, I think that offense outweighs defense which is why I prefer guys that can hit. ::waits for a certain someone to criticize me and the Sox organization for this kind of thinking::

Harry Chappas
07-27-2010, 03:26 PM
My only concern would be the lack of a catcher option with Flowers gone. AJ is showing signs of regression and I don't think I'd want Castro starting because he's been good for us as a backup. After Flowers is Phegley (overdraft, overdraft, overdraft), Miguel Gonzalez who is still far away and then some no-namers. If Kenny can find us a good catcher, then this deal looks a bit better. Still, I don't trust Kenny to acquire anyone good in FA and draft anybody worth a darn with the compensation from Dunn walking.

Why? KW has done pretty well via free agency. Why wouldn't you think he's capable of finding an average catcher - which is basically what A.J. has become?

TomBradley72
07-27-2010, 03:26 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243

Apparently it would cost us Hudson and Flowers, Jordan Danks, or Morel. This is from Levine so take it with a grain of salt.

Wow....if he doesn't think they can do better with their 2 draft picks...not alot confidence in his scouting department.

dickallen15
07-27-2010, 03:27 PM
So, what he has done so far in the minors doesn't matter because he's having a down year which looks more like a fluke than anything?
Guys that can't hit or make contact in AAA generally have even more trouble hitting and making contact in the major leagues. Flowers may have a career as a journeyman, but he's certainly not a top prospect.

Randar68
07-27-2010, 03:27 PM
Hudson is the only decent piece in there and even he's a #3 in the best case scenario.

You mean "most likely scenario"...

Hudson has better stuff than that when he locates. He just isn't very efficient with his pitches to date.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 03:29 PM
But anyway, IMHO, I think that offense outweighs defense which is why I prefer guys that can hit. ::waits for a certain someone to criticize me and the Sox organization for this kind of thinking::

At most positions, I agree. At catcher, I don't.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:30 PM
One question I have is why would the Nats be interested in Morel? Isn't Zimmerman signed long-term? Only thing I could think of would be that Z would shift over to 1b if Dunn left.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 03:32 PM
One question I have is why would the Nats be interested in Morel? Isn't Zimmerman signed long-term? Only thing I could think of would be that Z would shift over to 1b if Dunn left.
Morel, supposedly, can play the middle infield. 2B, mainly, though Charlotte has put him at SS.

dickallen15
07-27-2010, 03:33 PM
You mean "most likely scenario"...

Hudson has better stuff than that when he locates. He just isn't very efficient with his pitches to date.

I think and hope its just an inexperience thing. He can be a pretty good pitcher if he throws strikes.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:39 PM
Why? KW has done pretty well via free agency. Why wouldn't you think he's capable of finding an average catcher - which is basically what A.J. has become?
All the signings that contributed to 2005 turned out great but since then Kenny's been hit-and-miss with FAs. I can't remember last time Kenny ever spent big on FAs besides Dotel and Linebrink. All his signings were crappy minor players like Erstad, Colon, Bukvich, Terrero, etc.

Guys that can't hit or make contact in AAA generally have even more trouble hitting and making contact in the major leagues. Flowers may have a career as a journeyman, but he's certainly not a top prospect.
True, but I think Flowers draws enough walks and hits for enough powers to be a decent hitter up here. A Carlos Pena minus the ridiculous power. I'll take that as long as we can get a big bat somewhere else.

You mean "most likely scenario"...

Hudson has better stuff than that when he locates. He just isn't very efficient with his pitches to date.
Hudson doesn't throw particularly hard (sits around 92-93) and his other pitches are good enough for him to start but he won't ever be a Cy Young winner. Maybe he gets lucky and wins one but usually he will be like Gavin which I'll gladly take by the way.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:42 PM
All the signings that contributed to 2005 turned out great but since then Kenny's been hit-and-miss with FAs. I can't remember last time Kenny ever spent big on FAs besides Dotel and Linebrink. All his signings were crappy minor players like Erstad, Colon, Bukvich, Terrero, etc.


How about Putz? Vizquel? These aren't minor players on this team.

I also would put Rios as a FA type player since we grabbed him off waivers and gave up nothing in return beside salary.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 03:43 PM
For what it's worth I got a text from ESPN that said Washington wanted Beckham to be part of any Dunn deal, the Sox obviously said no, now they want Hudson to be a part of any deal.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 03:45 PM
For what it's worth I got a text from ESPN that said Washington wanted Beckham to be part of any Dunn deal, the Sox obviously said no, now they want Hudson to be a part of any deal.

That's basically what Levine said in the link that was posted in the thread earlier. So we're all taking it with a grain of salt given the source.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:47 PM
At most positions, I agree. At catcher, I don't.
V-Mart is a below average catcher but his bat was good enough for the Indians and the Red Sox to have him as one. Obviously, Flowers is nowhere near V-Mart level and V-Mart is only one example but if he can become even half of that, I'll take him over defense-oriented noodle bat catchers.

Randar68
07-27-2010, 03:49 PM
For what it's worth I got a text from ESPN that said Washington wanted Beckham to be part of any Dunn deal, the Sox obviously said no, now they want Hudson to be a part of any deal.

To which I would again say "no" and Washington keeps moving down the list.

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 03:52 PM
To which I would again say "no" and Washington keeps moving down the list.

I would say yes in a heartbeat

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 03:53 PM
How about Putz? Vizquel? These aren't minor players on this team.

I also would put Rios as a FA type player since we grabbed him off waivers and gave up nothing in return beside salary.
Putz was coming off an injury-shortened season and there was no guarantee he was going to be this good. Vizquel was signed as a backup and he only got to start this many games because Teahen got injured and Viciedo is a hack with the glove. I'd say these two are minor low-risk-high-reward signings. Well I did come off as saying that Kenny doesn't sign anybody good but what I meant to say is that he doesn't sign after guaranteed pricey players (It doesn't help big name FAs have some kind of bias against the Sox but still my point stands). Oh and Rios was a waiver pickup who was only there for us to grab because we were willing to swallow the entire contract. A ballsy move on Kenny's part but it sure looked like it was going to bite us hard in the ass last season.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:53 PM
Yea that start against Seattle where he gave up one run in 6.2 inning was brutal!

Did you watch the start or are you just looking at the stat line? Yes he did what had to be done and managed to only give up 1 ER to a brutal team. He still fell behind most batters, and walked 4 in this so called great start. He gave up an additional 5 hits. His WHIP over three starts stands at 1.79. His ERA is over 6.

That's not going to cut it against good teams. I agree Hudson is the best we have right now, but as it is we will need to score 5 or 6 runs to win every time he goes out there. To me, that doesn't change much if we put Tony Pena or Carlos Torres out there.

What does change, is we are much more likley to do that with Adam Dunn at DH than Kotsay or Andruw Jones.

Hudson's production thus far is easily replaceable. If we keep him, great, I'm sure he can compete to be the fifth starter in a couple years/act as insurance next year. Is he helping the team this year? No, he is not. Hudson is one more bad start from being replaced by Torres anyway, regardless of whether he is traded or not.

SSrep
07-27-2010, 03:54 PM
I would say yes in a heartbeat

...in half a heartbeat

Baron
07-27-2010, 03:55 PM
I would say yes in a heartbeat

As would I....but we would need to find another starter

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 03:56 PM
Did you watch the start or are you just looking at the stat line? Yes he did what had to be done and managed to only give up 1 ER to a brutal team. He still fell behind most batters, and walked 4 in this so called great start. He gave up an additional 5 hits. His WHIP over three starts stands at 1.79. His ERA is over 6.

That's not going to cut it against good teams. I agree Hudson is the best we have right now, but as it is we will need to score 5 or 6 runs to win every time he goes out there. To me, that doesn't change much if we put Tony Pena or Carlos Torres out there.

What does change, is we are much more likley to do that with Adam Dunn at DH than Kotsay or Andruw Jones.

Hudson's production thus far is easily replaceable. If we keep him, great, I'm sure he can compete to be the fifth starter in a couple years/act as insurance next year. Is he helping the team this year? No, he is not. Hudson is one more bad start from being replaced by Torres anyway, regardless of whether he is traded or not.

I watched the game, as I recall he started rather poorly and then got better and better as the night moved on. His changeup was just nasty from the third inning on.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 03:59 PM
Putz was coming off an injury-shortened season and there was no guarantee he was going to be this good. Vizquel was signed as a backup and he only got to start this many games because Teahen got injured and Viciedo is a hack with the glove. I'd say these two are minor low-risk-high-reward signings. Well I did come off as saying that Kenny doesn't sign anybody good but what I meant to say is that he doesn't sign after guaranteed pricey players (It doesn't help big name FAs have some kind of bias against the Sox but still my point stands). Oh and Rios was a waiver pickup who was only there for us to grab because we were willing to swallow the entire contract. A ballsy move on Kenny's part but it sure looked like it was going to bite us hard in the ass last season.

I'm not sure what you are arguing. You originally stated that Kenny doesn't sign any good FA's. Now you are upset that he signs good free agents but that they aren't "big names?"

The White Sox didn't pick up Rios just because they were willing to swallow his deal. KW is on record as saying he thought Rios was a great talent and needed a change of scenary. He was an ex-All Star at the time that the Sox scouts were confidnet he would turn it around. Do you seriously think the White Sox, or any team (probably even including the Yankees) would absorb Rios' deal just to block a team like Detroit from grabbing him? Of course not. The White Sox actually thought he could play.

LoveYourSuit
07-27-2010, 04:00 PM
I don't mind trading for Dunn if all it would cost us from the current ML roster is Hudson.

SouthSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:00 PM
Did you watch the start or are you just looking at the stat line? Yes he did what had to be done and managed to only give up 1 ER to a brutal team. He still fell behind most batters, and walked 4 in this so called great start. He gave up an additional 5 hits.

Agreed. That start was against one of the worst offenses in baseball, and in a pitcher friendly park. And hopefully that start is enough to raise his perceived value so we can make this deal for Dunn. Dunn helps us win the division, and win in the playoffs. I can't say the same for Hudson.

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 04:04 PM
I hope we get Dunn or Fielder. Then make a smaller trade for a starting pitcher such as Jeremy Guthrie.

DirtySox
07-27-2010, 04:06 PM
I hope the Sox get outbid. I'm still on board for a lesser bat and/or another starter.

I wish Washington was interested in Viciedo. Too bad all bat, no plate discipline, no defensive value prospects aren't worth much.

TomBradley72
07-27-2010, 04:06 PM
White Sox + Dunn - (Hudson + Prospects + Kotsay-being released) = Much Better Team

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:07 PM
I watched the game, as I recall he started rather poorly and then got better and better as the night moved on. His changeup was just nasty from the third inning on.

I recall him being better as the game went on but overall was up and down. He struck out the side in the 2nd but walked 2 in the third, and needed a caught stealing and dp to get out of it.

He also loaded the bases in the fourth and got out of it.

In the fifth, two lineouts, including one for a double play, allowed him to get out unscathed.

It was an OK start and he got the job done. It's also a start where he could have very easily given up another 3 or 4 runs. You could also aruge that his last start in Oakland was similar, only this time he was unable to get the third out. That's the problem with a young pitcher that doesn't throw strikes....you are gong to constantly be teatering on that edge of given up 2 runs almost every inning.

If you want to argue Hudson will be good in the future, that's fine. I think he will be too. However, I don't think by any means does he lock down the fifth spot this year. As I've said before, he may get sent down after Friday's start anyway, even if he's not traded, if he continues to walk people.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 04:08 PM
I hope the Sox get outbid. I'm still on board for a lesser bat and/or another starter.

I wish Washington was interested in Viciedo. Too bad all bat, no plate discipline, no defensive value prospects aren't worth much.
I think Viciedo would be worth more if the "all bat" part meant his bat was closer to a sure thing. It would also hope if we were dealing with an AL team. Viciedo, sadly, is closer to LaPorta than Ryan Braun.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 04:09 PM
I hope the Sox get outbid. I'm still on board for a lesser bat and/or another starter.

I wish Washington was interested in Viciedo. Too bad all bat, no plate discipline, no defensive value prospects aren't worth much.

They're going to. It just has the feel to it. Unfortunately, if they do, I think it will be by the Tigers. Hopefully Kenny has a backup plan after Dunn and Fielder.

fox23
07-27-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm not sure what you are arguing. You originally stated that Kenny doesn't sign any good FA's. Now you are upset that he signs good free agents but that they aren't "big names?"

The White Sox didn't pick up Rios just because they were willing to swallow his deal. KW is on record as saying he thought Rios was a great talent and needed a change of scenary. He was an ex-All Star at the time that the Sox scouts were confidnet he would turn it around. Do you seriously think the White Sox, or any team (probably even including the Yankees) would absorb Rios' deal just to block a team like Detroit from grabbing him? Of course not. The White Sox actually thought he could play.

Actually, things like this happen at times. You block another team, wait for the original team to propose an offer, and then turn it down. I bet Kenny was the most shocked guy in the room when Toronto said you can just have him.

And besides, what's Kenny going to say? "Oh ****, I didn't see that coming?"

DirtySox
07-27-2010, 04:10 PM
I think Viciedo would be worth more if the "all bat" part meant his bat was closer to a sure thing. It would also hope if we were dealing with an AL team. Viciedo, sadly, is closer to LaPorta than Ryan Braun.

Indeed. I'm shocked at some of the people that have compared him to Frank and or Miggy. I don't get the hype for him except that he could be better than Kotsay at DH.

Randar68
07-27-2010, 04:11 PM
Kid has gone from college, as a 5th rd draft pick, to the majors in less than 2 years, compiling 1.047 WHIP, 2.90 ERA, and 364 K's in 310.1 IP in the minors across 5 levels!

And people can't display any sort of patience with him? *** is wrong with people that they would trade this prospect for a 2-3 month rental and then be in the situation of needing to find a starting pitcher for those same 2-3 months AND next season and beyond?

sullythered
07-27-2010, 04:11 PM
They're going to. It just has the feel to it. Unfortunately, if they do, I think it will be by the Tigers. Hopefully Kenny has a backup plan after Dunn and Fielder.

We never get guys when it is this widely reported beforehand.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 04:13 PM
Indeed. I'm shocked at some of the people that have compared him to Frank and or Miggy. I don't get the hype for him except that he could be better than Kotsay at DH.
I see the power to all fields. I see the wonderful bat speed. I see a lot. I just think he's years away from contributing anything.

Of course, I could be wrong -- I at least want to see him wash out and fail at DH first.

Randar68
07-27-2010, 04:15 PM
As I've said before, he may get sent down after Friday's start anyway, even if he's not traded, if he continues to walk people.

For whom? Carlos Torres? Good God.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 04:16 PM
For whom? Carlos Torres? Good God.
Unbelievable that he would be sent down. I don't see how that would do him any good. He's better off working with Coop up here than dominating AAA hitters for another month.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 04:16 PM
I'm not sure what you are arguing. You originally stated that Kenny doesn't sign any good FA's. Now you are upset that he signs good free agents but that they aren't "big names?"
I don't feel like quoting myself so I'll just say it again: Kenny's been hit-and-miss with FAs. I did admit I came off as if I thought Kenny doesn't sign any good FAs. For that, I apologize because I didn't phrase it properly thus confused you. So here's the summary of my points:

I do believe Kenny's had some success in the FA market but he's also had his fair share of failures like Bartolo and Erstad. My gripe with Kenny is that he goes after players with significant faults that drive their prices down, thus become minor signings IMO, and hopes for the best. It works sometimes and it works well when they do, but it also fails often. That's why I can't trust Kenny fully. Look at how many seasons of Anderson, Erstad, Mackowiak and Wise we had to get through until we finally got someone who is a legit CF.

The White Sox didn't pick up Rios just because they were willing to swallow his deal.
Yeah, I know they thought he could play which is why they took on his contract but what I said was that Rios was available to us for nothing because of his large contract. He didn't cost us a single prospect which is why one may consider it as a FA pickup but he could've cost us prospect(s) if Kenny wasn't willing to eat up the entire contract. Again, I apologize for my poor wording. My only excuse is that English is my second language.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:18 PM
Actually, things like this happen at times. You block another team, wait for the original team to propose an offer, and then turn it down. I bet Kenny was the most shocked guy in the room when Toronto said you can just have him.

And besides, what's Kenny going to say? "Oh ****, I didn't see that coming?"

I understand teams do this. However, they don't do it to block struggling players when they themselves have a limited payroll and find themselves multiple games back with no real shot at winning the World Series. If the White Sox though Rios was a bad player, they would have welcomed Detroit putting a waiver wire claim on him.

Maybe am just that smart (doubtful) but I wasn't shocked that Toronto let Rios go for nothing. The fans hated him there and he was a huge contract on a bad team. I very much doubt that KW was blindsided by this either, and if he was suprised I'm sure he was quite happy. It wasn't this, oh God they called our bluff moment that you seem to think it was.

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 04:21 PM
Kid has gone from college, as a 5th rd draft pick, to the majors in less than 2 years, compiling 1.047 WHIP, 2.90 ERA, and 364 K's in 310.1 IP in the minors across 5 levels!

And people can't display any sort of patience with him? *** is wrong with people that they would trade this prospect for a 2-3 month rental and then be in the situation of needing to find a starting pitcher for those same 2-3 months AND next season and beyond?
I'm not out of patience with Hudson but I am skeptical of him just like I am of any other Sox prospects. We spend jack **** on drafts, we do a real **** job at developing our own and we can't coach worth a damn. He was a 5th round pick and if any other team thought he could tear through the minors like he did, he would've gone higher obviously. Let's face it, Hudson was a 5th round pick for a reason - good stuff and decent command overalll but nothing to write home about.

Dunn may be a rental but he will walk and net us 2 picks. Considering how stacked next year's draft is, I think that's a gamble worthwile. Still, I don't see Rizzo giving up Dunn for the package suggested here.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:21 PM
Unbelievable that he would be sent down. I don't see how that would do him any good. He's better off working with Coop up here than dominating AAA hitters for another month.

I hope we don't wait to find out. This team is in a pennat race. They aren't going to worry about hurting the kids confidence. If this team is 10 games back you can wait around for him to figure it out. You can't sit there and take a L every fifth day while this kid realizes you have to throw stikes. Hudson has far greater potential than Torres but I think Torres could at least give me a 4.50 to 5 ERA. Hell, I'd take that from Hudson.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:23 PM
Yeah, I know they thought he could play which is why they took on his contract but what I said was that Rios was available to us for nothing because of his large contract. He didn't cost us a single prospect which is why one may consider it as a FA pickup but he could've cost us prospect(s) if Kenny wasn't willing to eat up the entire contract. Again, I apologize for my poor wording. My only excuse is that English is my second language.

Your english is very good, especially as a second language. I think we may actually be saying the same thing.

Randar68
07-27-2010, 04:24 PM
We spend jack **** on drafts, we do a real **** job at developing our own and we can't coach worth a damn. He was a 5th round pick and if any other team thought he could tear through the minors like he did, he would've gone higher obviously. Let's face it, Hudson was a 5th round pick for a reason - good stuff and decent command overalll but nothing to write home about.

This is just too silly an argument to really even reply to. I smell a :dtroll:

fox23
07-27-2010, 04:27 PM
I understand teams do this. However, they don't do it to block struggling players when they themselves have a limited payroll and find themselves multiple games back with no real shot at winning the World Series. If the White Sox though Rios was a bad player, they would have welcomed Detroit putting a waiver wire claim on him.

Maybe am just that smart (doubtful) but I wasn't shocked that Toronto let Rios go for nothing. The fans hated him there and he was a huge contract on a bad team. I very much doubt that KW was blindsided by this either, and if he was suprised I'm sure he was quite happy. It wasn't this, oh God they called our bluff moment that you seem to think it was.

Just as a point of reference, the Sox were only 3 back when the claim was processed. And I'm not saying Rios is a bad player at all; but it is somewhat questionable if he was worth his contract. Maybe you are right; I guess we will never know for sure.

Randar68
07-27-2010, 04:28 PM
I hope we don't wait to find out. This team is in a pennat race. They aren't going to worry about hurting the kids confidence. If this team is 10 games back you can wait around for him to figure it out. You can't sit there and take a L every fifth day while this kid realizes you have to throw stikes. Hudson has far greater potential than Torres but I think Torres could at least give me a 4.50 to 5 ERA. Hell, I'd take that from Hudson.

We have been sitting there taking an L every time Hudson has gone out there? The TEAM is 2-1 in his 3 starts, every pitch he throws at this level is like putting a dollar in the bank for the future, and his ceiling is so far above Carlos flippin' Torres, who is 4 years older and posted a 6+ ERA in 5 starts last year. Yet you think he's suddenly going to replace Daniel Hudson?

I repeat.... GOOD GOD, MAN! GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!

Pablo_Honey
07-27-2010, 04:35 PM
Your english is very good, especially as a second language. I think we may actually be saying the same thing.
Thanks and yes I do think we are on the same page, it was just a little communication issue there.

This is just too silly an argument to really even reply to. I smell a :dtroll:
Uh huh. What's silly about it? I want to believe in this team's farm system but I just can't. We spend around slot on drafts and then we rush them or not tinker with them that they never amount to anything. We produce very few MLB players. This system has a long way to go.

oeo
07-27-2010, 04:40 PM
White Sox + Dunn - (Hudson + Prospects + Kotsay-being released) = Much Better Team

Wouldn't be so sure about that. Konerko and Ozzie have both already mentioned how Kotsay's leadership was a vital reason they stayed afloat and worked through their early struggles. Konerko also mentioned Jones and Pierre.

I think it's more likely that Viciedo would be sent down.

BTW, I'm calling BS on this rumor. If earlier rumors are true, that Kenny made Hudson available to the Nats weeks ago, then this would be a done deal before anything was even leaked.

sullythered
07-27-2010, 04:43 PM
Wouldn't be so sure about that. Konerko and Ozzie have both already mentioned how Kotsay's leadership was a vital reason they stayed afloat and worked through their early struggles. Konerko also mentioned Jones and Pierre.

I think it's more likely that Viciedo would be sent down.

BTW, I'm calling BS on this rumor. If earlier rumors are true, that Kenny made Hudson available to the Nats weeks ago, then this would be a done deal before anything was even leaked.

I am certain that if we get Dunn, Viciedo will go down.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 04:44 PM
Wouldn't be so sure about that. Konerko and Ozzie have both already mentioned how Kotsay's leadership was a vital reason they stayed afloat and worked through their early struggles. Konerko also mentioned Jones and Pierre.

I think it's more likely that Viciedo would be sent down.

BTW, I'm calling BS on this rumor. If earlier rumors are true, that Kenny made Hudson available to the Nats weeks ago, then this would be a done deal before anything was even leaked.
Viciedo will most certainly be sent down. The corresponding return of Teahen, however, should spell doom for Mark "my attributes are dwindling by the day" Kotsay.

oeo
07-27-2010, 04:46 PM
Viciedo will most certainly be sent down. The corresponding return of Teahen, however, should spell doom for Mark "my attributes are dwindling by the day" Kotsay.

The way the team feels about Kotsay, I could honestly see Lillibridge being sent down before Kotsay is cut. If Teahen comes back mid-August, that would only be a couple weeks without Lillibridge.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 04:54 PM
The way the team feels about Kotsay, I could honestly see Lillibridge being sent down before Kotsay is cut. If Teahen comes back mid-August, that would only be a couple weeks without Lillibridge.

I doubt it. Kotsay will be gone. He wouldn't have a spot on the team anymore with Dunn here.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:56 PM
We have been sitting there taking an L every time Hudson has gone out there? The TEAM is 2-1 in his 3 starts, every pitch he throws at this level is like putting a dollar in the bank for the future, and his ceiling is so far above Carlos flippin' Torres, who is 4 years older and posted a 6+ ERA in 5 starts last year. Yet you think he's suddenly going to replace Daniel Hudson?

I repeat.... GOOD GOD, MAN! GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!

Let me be clearer for you, in bullet point form:
*Hudson is better than Torres and has a brighter future
*Hudson's production thus far has been terrible. He's killed us in 2 games and in the thrid game he walked a tightrope for a few innings against a bad team. Is it a loss everytime? No. But it won't be with Torres out there either.
*I don't WANT to replace Hudson with Torres but if Hudson is putting on 1.8 baserunners an inning, that's 9 per 5 inning start, I don't see how I have a choice.
*If Hudson gets me Dunn, that upgrade makes up for any downgrade in going from Hudson to Torres. With any average pitcher, we likely win the Sea game and lose the KC and Oak games, as we did (we may even have won one of the KC and Oak games).
*My argument isn't that Torres is good or better than Hudson. It's that a) the fifth starter spot does not matter much in a 2 month season and b) the way Hudson is producing right now means you really aren't taking that much away from the current team to get Dunn.

You tell me to get a hold of myself? I'd suggest you ask yourself why you are so in love with Hudson when he has proven NOTHING at the major league level and is only up here in the first place because of an injury.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 04:58 PM
According to Levine, White Sox have already turned down Dunn for Beckham straight up. Thank God.

hawkjt
07-27-2010, 04:59 PM
The NL is still more of a fastball league. Dunn might struggle in the AL seeing all the breaking balls. Just not convinced that he will come over and be a huge boost to our offense. Might just strike out a lot more.

But,if the Twins get Lilly, I guess the Sox have to add a bat...make it a cheap one like Kelly Johnson or Luke Scott,please. Hudson has not been allowed to settle in..he is going to be solid.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 05:00 PM
The NL is still more of a fastball league. Dunn might struggle in the AL seeing all the breaking balls. Just not convinced that he will come over and be a huge boost to our offense. Might just strike out a lot more.

But,if the Twins get Lilly, I guess the Sox have to add a bat...make it a cheap one like Kelly Johnson or Luke Scott,please. Hudson has not been allowed to settle in..he is going to be solid.
What?

hawkjt
07-27-2010, 05:04 PM
What?


The AL is a better league. Pitchers like Javy Vasquez go from the Sox to the Braves and are in the top 3 in ERA in the NL....wonder why? Hitting is better in the AL...and so is the pitching. When was the last time a NL hitter was traded to the AL in July and ripped it up?

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 05:07 PM
one player the Sox should stay away from is Lance Berkman.

hawkjt
07-27-2010, 05:08 PM
one player the Sox should stay away from is Lance Berkman.

I agree...he looks finished.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 05:13 PM
Buster Olney's speculation:

Link (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/statuses/19689722768)

I will explode if the Yankees get Adam Dunn.

sullythered
07-27-2010, 05:17 PM
Buster Olney's speculation:

Link (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/statuses/19689722768)

I will explode if the Yankees get Adam Dunn.

Buster Olney/ESPN always say that "a Yankees/(whoever has value) trade makes a whole lot of sense."

<puke>

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 05:21 PM
If the Yankees were to get Dunn. I can't see any team beating them.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 05:23 PM
If the Yankees were to get Dunn. I can't see any team beating them.

I also don't see them giving up one of their stud prospects for a pure DH...doesn't fit Cashman's MO.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2010, 05:31 PM
I'm not out of patience with Hudson but I am skeptical of him just like I am of any other Sox prospects. We spend jack **** on drafts, we do a real **** job at developing our own and we can't coach worth a damn. He was a 5th round pick and if any other team thought he could tear through the minors like he did, he would've gone higher obviously. Let's face it, Hudson was a 5th round pick for a reason - good stuff and decent command overalll but nothing to write home about.

Dunn may be a rental but he will walk and net us 2 picks. Considering how stacked next year's draft is, I think that's a gamble worthwile. Still, I don't see Rizzo giving up Dunn for the package suggested here.

So? Buerhle was a 38th round draft pick, Johan Santana was a rule 5 pick, Jake Peavy was drafted in the 15th round, and Ted Lilly was drafted in the 23rd round. Just because you're drafted late doesn't mean you're doomed.

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 05:36 PM
So? Buerhle was a 38th round draft pick, Johan Santana was a rule 5 pick, Jake Peavy was drafted in the 15th round, and Ted Lilly was drafted in the 23rd round. Just because you're drafted late doesn't mean you're doomed.


Also, Mike Piazza was chosen in the 62nd round.

Rockabilly
07-27-2010, 05:45 PM
http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/19691098150

great news!!!!

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 05:49 PM
http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/19691098150

great news!!!!

That's not great news.

I mean it is, but it's not new. I think we all knew that Beckham was going nowhere unless Lincecum/Pujols/Strasburg/Hanley were involved.

Thank you, for making all of our hearts race for nothing.

Coops4Aces
07-27-2010, 05:51 PM
That's not great news.

I mean it is, but it's not new. I think we all knew that Beckham was going nowhere unless Lincecum/Pujols/Strasburg/Hanley were involved.

Thank you, for making all of our hearts race for nothing.

Lol, I thought it was Dunn news. But it does put my heart at ease knowing Beckham is staying put.

BigHurt3515
07-27-2010, 05:54 PM
Hudson and Danks for Dunn
Do It

Then go get a 5th starter Kenny

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 05:56 PM
Hudson and Danks for Dunn
Do It

Then go get a 5th starter Kenny

If the Danks you're referring to isn't John, I have to imagine the Nats GM gets fired on the spot for making that deal. I don't care what Bruce Levine reported. That does not get you Adam Dunn, not when they can get draft picks for letting him walk.

BigHurt3515
07-27-2010, 05:58 PM
If the Danks you're referring to isn't John, I have to imagine the Nats GM gets fired on the spot for making that deal. I don't care what Bruce Levine reported. That does not get you Adam Dunn, not when they can get draft picks for letting him walk.


Im just going with the rumor. Out of what it said thats what I would do

Tragg
07-27-2010, 05:59 PM
If you want to argue Hudson will be good in the future, that's fine. I think he will be too. However, I don't think by any means does he lock down the fifth spot this year. As I've said before, he may get sent down after Friday's start anyway, even if he's not traded, if he continues to walk people.

We hear the same thing about every young player, every young pitcher.
If they don't rake in week 1, if they don't throw "quality starts" right off the bat, they are of little use.
It's absurd.
Hudson's has to improve his control. He's also shown the ability to strike people out, which suggests top of the rotation in the future. He's far ahead of Richard this early, and Richard, 1.5 years later, is a quality major league starter.


Now, we want to trade 2 near major league prospects to rent Dunn, who will yield us 2 draft choices...if they are high ceiling high round picks, maybe.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 05:59 PM
Im just going with the rumor. Out of what it said thats what I would do

If it were true, I'd do it in a heartbeat as well. I think Levine has been hanging out with Geovany Soto and Freddy too much.

SOXSINCE'70
07-27-2010, 06:00 PM
Go get a 5th starter Kenny

Is Billy Pierce available?? :D:

tm1119
07-27-2010, 06:05 PM
Hudson is a proven commodity already. 23 year old pitchers that are already MLB ready are very hot commodity in the MLB. The Nats would more than likely to have spend big money on a player that falls to get someone on Hudson's level. Dunn is more than likely going to get signed by a playoff team so the 1st pick they will get wont be great. It makes a lot of sense for them to settle for Hudson as he is already proven and cheap. As far as Danks goes...? Yeah not sure if they would want him or not, but thats not the type of trade that gets GM's fired at all. It wouldnt even be the worst trade of the past week.

RockJock07
07-27-2010, 06:19 PM
IF the Nats really want Hudson and Jordan Danks for Dunn what is Kenny waiting for. Yes Hudson is young but the Sox are ready to win.

Lets just throw this out there, how does Sale compare to Hudson? Sale could start next season if need be but Kenny could sign some scrub starter to be the 5th starter.

Just saying, if that's the package they want i have no problem with that at all.

NLaloosh
07-27-2010, 06:22 PM
It's hard to say what is the worth of two months use of a player that :

In 9 seasons has never made it to the playoffs.

Has a .252 lifetime batting average.

Has never finished higher than 26th place in the MVP voting.

Strikes out as much as anyone in baseball.

Is a horrible defensive player but thinks he's not and refuses to DH.

Generally has a poor attitude and has publicly stated that he doesn't care much about baseball.

Ofcourse, even if the Sox got him for nothing but Garcia burns out and Hudson pitches no better than he has - they won't make the playoffs anyway.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 06:23 PM
IF the Nats really want Hudson and Jordan Danks for Dunn what is Kenny waiting for. Yes Hudson is young but the Sox are ready to win.

Lets just throw this out there, how does Sale compare to Hudson? Sale could start next season if need be but Kenny could sign some scrub starter to be the 5th starter.

Just saying, if that's the package they want i have no problem with that at all.

The Nats.

I'm sure if this is what the Nats are looking for, then Kenny as agreed and made the offer. The ball would then be in the Nationals' court. I imagine the Nats are waiting to the last minute to trade Dunn to get the best deal possible for Dunn.

JermaineDye05
07-27-2010, 06:25 PM
It's hard to say what is the worth of two months use of a player that :

In 9 seasons has never made it to the playoffs.

Has a .252 lifetime batting average.

Has never finished higher than 26th place in the MVP voting.

Strikes out as much as anyone in baseball.

Is a horrible defensive player but thinks he's not and refuses to DH.

Generally has a poor attitude and has publicly stated that he doesn't care much about baseball.

Ofcourse, even if the Sox got him for nothing but Garcia burns out and Hudson pitches no better than he has - they won't make the playoffs anyway.

Well, he's been on **** teams. That's not his fault.

RockJock07
07-27-2010, 06:33 PM
It's hard to say what is the worth of two months use of a player that :

In 9 seasons has never made it to the playoffs.

Has a .252 lifetime batting average.

Has never finished higher than 26th place in the MVP voting.

Strikes out as much as anyone in baseball.

Is a horrible defensive player but thinks he's not and refuses to DH.

Generally has a poor attitude and has publicly stated that he doesn't care much about baseball.

Ofcourse, even if the Sox got him for nothing but Garcia burns out and Hudson pitches no better than he has - they won't make the playoffs anyway.

Huh? Not really sure what the hell you're talking about

Hitmen77
07-27-2010, 06:55 PM
We all know that the Nats get 2 draft picks if they keep Dunn and let him walk. That's one argument for them to keep him. But is there an incentive for them to make a trade (for a supposedly lesser value than the 2 draft picks) so that another team will pick up the rest of his salary?

I don't know how it breaks down on his $12 million salary, but I'm guessing that trading him would save the Nats something like $4 million. I'm not saying the Nats will just give him away as a salary dump, but is the salary savings something they might be weighing in deciding what he's worth trading for?

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2010, 07:03 PM
The AL is a better league. Pitchers like Javy Vasquez go from the Sox to the Braves and are in the top 3 in ERA in the NL....wonder why? Hitting is better in the AL...and so is the pitching. When was the last time a NL hitter was traded to the AL in July and ripped it up?
That has nothing to do with what you said. You said the NL was more of a fastball league -- what does that have to do with anything you said?

voodoochile
07-27-2010, 07:16 PM
Well, I won't take too much offense for being told I'm wrong for thinking my way because I'm not infallible at all. I am not the be-all-end-all truth teller and my opinions are merely opinions based on personal beliefs. If my beliefs have me thinking in a way where I'm wrong, I don't mind being told that I'm wrong as long as it's not in a very insulting way.

But anyway, IMHO, I think that offense outweighs defense which is why I prefer guys that can hit. ::waits for a certain someone to criticize me and the Sox organization for this kind of thinking::

For the most part I agree and in most cases will always take a marginal improvement with a bat over a marginal improvement with a stick, but catcher is one of the few spots I want a good defensive player first and foremost.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2010, 08:08 PM
It's hard to say what is the worth of two months use of a player that :

In 9 seasons has never made it to the playoffs.

Has a .252 lifetime batting average.

Has never finished higher than 26th place in the MVP voting.

Strikes out as much as anyone in baseball.

Is a horrible defensive player but thinks he's not and refuses to DH.

Generally has a poor attitude and has publicly stated that he doesn't care much about baseball.

Ofcourse, even if the Sox got him for nothing but Garcia burns out and Hudson pitches no better than he has - they won't make the playoffs anyway.

Most of your points are completely irrelevant.

Hasn't made the playoffs....he's been on bad teams. I guess he could have hit another 30 HR, but outside of that it's not like he's holding teams back.

Has a .252 batting average....So What? His career OPS is a ridiculous .900. He also will walk 100 times a year. Batting average, especially for a power hitter, is an inferior measure.

He hasn't finished in the top 26 in MVP voting? Again who cares? MVP voting typically requires you to be on a contending team and even then it is a popularity contest.

He strikes out a lot? Again who cares? This isn't little league. A ground out is as bad as a strike out in 99 percent of cases. When a guy hits 40 HRs a year I don't want him choking up and putting the ball in play with two strikes.

His attitude is bad....first of all I've never heard of this. I actually talked to Dunn at spring training and he seemed like a pretty good guy. Still...who cares? There are plenty of people in baseball that would probably rather be playing another sport or doing something else but couldn't make the same kind of money. This doesn't matter one bit. I love playing baseball...I don't think this makes me a better DH option for the White Sox.

He's a poor defensive player....yes this is true. I'm pretty sure putting him at DH will help with this.

Dunn is stud and with him we are a World Series contender.

Tragg
07-27-2010, 09:26 PM
RE Berkman, shouldn't he basically come for a C prospect if we take his salary? He's worth a C.

Again, we got nothing for Thome last year.

BlackSox
07-27-2010, 11:18 PM
We all know that the Nats get 2 draft picks if they keep Dunn and let him walk.

Not necessarily.

(1) In order to get the draft picks, the Nats have to offer him arbitration. (2) Dunn could be looking to make a significant increase via arbitration.

Can the cash-strapped Nationals afford to take the risk that he might accept arbitration?

Hitmen77
07-28-2010, 08:39 AM
Not necessarily.

(1) In order to get the draft picks, the Nats have to offer him arbitration. (2) Dunn could be looking to make a significant increase via arbitration.

Can the cash-strapped Nationals afford to take the risk that he might accept arbitration?

True. They only would get the picks if they offer arbitration. I don't know what the chances are that they'd pass that up though. I guess it depends on whether they are "cash strapped" as you say....are they? I don't know anything about their payroll situation.

If they are looking to save money, that gets back to my earlier question of whether the $4 million or so savings they'd get by trading him now is a factor to consider as they decide whether any offers they get by Saturday are worth accepting.

.....now that being said, if the Nats decide they want to trade him to the highest bidder, I still doubt the White Sox (with our lack of prospects) are going to outbid all other suitors.

mjmcend
07-28-2010, 08:54 AM
Not necessarily.

(1) In order to get the draft picks, the Nats have to offer him arbitration. (2) Dunn could be looking to make a significant increase via arbitration.

Can the cash-strapped Nationals afford to take the risk that he might accept arbitration?

There is no chance he would accept. He wants to sign a multi-year big money free agent deal. Why would he turn that down to stay with the Nationals for one more year?

Even if in this bizzarro world, Dunn accepts arbitration, the Nats get him for another year and then can go through the song-and-dance of potentially trading him next July. They couldn't lose.

TheOldRoman
07-28-2010, 08:59 AM
Not necessarily.

(1) In order to get the draft picks, the Nats have to offer him arbitration. (2) Dunn could be looking to make a significant increase via arbitration.

Can the cash-strapped Nationals afford to take the risk that he might accept arbitration?The Nats aren't cash strapped at all. They are doing fine. They would offer arbitration in a heartbeat because some team is going to be dumb enough to give Dunn 4 years/$60 million. Dunn would never accept arbitration because he knows he will get a much bigger payday on the market. Even if he did accept, the Nats get a productive player for around what they are paying him this year and move him at the deadline next July.

doublem23
07-28-2010, 08:59 AM
Not necessarily.

(1) In order to get the draft picks, the Nats have to offer him arbitration. (2) Dunn could be looking to make a significant increase via arbitration.

Can the cash-strapped Nationals afford to take the risk that he might accept arbitration?

I believe if he accepts, it is a 1-year deal. No way Dunn accepts.

Tragg
07-28-2010, 09:03 AM
Dunn is stud and with him we are a World Series contender.

Dunn takes this marginal playoff team and makes it a serious World Series Contender? One player does that?
If that were true, a lot of the poster above's points above ARE relevant and he should have been able to take some bad teams and make them .500 teams.
He has a high Obp via walks as you said....but walking is not exactly the preferred tactic in this organization. The last big walker we had was Thome- we wouldn't spare 1.5million for him; the one before that, Guillen ran him off after a season (Swisher).
He's having a great year, but stud/elite he isn't. He's also been raking NL pitching, and spent a lot of time in Cincy's ballpark.

Randar68
07-28-2010, 09:43 AM
IF the Nats really want Hudson and Jordan Danks for Dunn what is Kenny waiting for. Yes Hudson is young but the Sox are ready to win.

Starters are so much more valuable than DH's. I don't get this insanity that the "Sox are ready to win it all now". You're going to have to do something drastic next year to find a starter AND a DH if you trade Hudson now. Can you guys think beyond next week?

This team will make the playoffs with or without a trade, IMO, but you are going to mortgage having a good starting pitcher for the next several years at cut-rate cost (the most valuable type of player in baseball), for 2-3 months of Adam Dunn... *BOGGLE*

Randar68
07-28-2010, 09:44 AM
Dunn takes this marginal playoff team and makes it a serious World Series Contender? One player does that?

Nevermind that he takes away your best pitching prospect who is currently your #5 starter when you really don't have anyone suitable for that spot in the rotation in your system. So you are downgrading your rotation.

Randar68
07-28-2010, 09:46 AM
I believe if he accepts, it is a 1-year deal. No way Dunn accepts.

Yep, the poster who posted that has no clue about the arbitration/draft pick process if they think a player in his prime is going to accept arbitration and a 1 year deal. It is entirely unprecedented and would represent perhaps the most flawed judgment on the player's part in MLB contract history.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 09:57 AM
Starters are so much more valuable than DH's. I don't get this insanity that the "Sox are ready to win it all now". You're going to have to do something drastic next year to find a starter AND a DH if you trade Hudson now. Can you guys think beyond next week?

This team will make the playoffs with or without a trade, IMO, but you are going to mortgage having a good starting pitcher for the next several years at cut-rate cost (the most valuable type of player in baseball), for 2-3 months of Adam Dunn... *BOGGLE*

Wait, why would we have to do something drastic next year to find a starter? Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy are all locks. I doubt Garcia goes anywhere else either. Plus Chris Sale is going to be a starter next year either here or in AAA.

guillensdisciple
07-28-2010, 10:08 AM
Wait, why would we have to do something drastic next year to find a starter? Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy are all locks. I doubt Garcia goes anywhere else either. Plus Chris Sale is going to be a starter next year either here or in AAA.

In regards to Sale, what's the deal with the Sox using him exclusively as a reliever in the minors?

Randar68
07-28-2010, 10:10 AM
Wait, why would we have to do something drastic next year to find a starter? Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy are all locks. I doubt Garcia goes anywhere else either. Plus Chris Sale is going to be a starter next year either here or in AAA.

You're eager to ship out a guy who has put up top-prospect numbers across the board in the minors for a guy who has played all of 8.2 innings of professional baseball?

This is the insanity I reference.

Garcia has not had sustained success in 6 or 7 years. You have faith that he continues not only through the rest of this year but next year as well? I sure don't.

Randar68
07-28-2010, 10:12 AM
In regards to Sale, what's the deal with the Sox using him exclusively as a reliever in the minors?

This was part of his agreement to sign for slot money. Sox said they would use him as a releiver to limit his innings and give him a shot to make it up to the big leagues this year (and start his MLB service time arbitration clock) and then go back to starting next year. He is going to need time as a starter in the minors even if he makes it up as a LOOGY this Aug/Sept.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 10:30 AM
You're eager to ship out a guy who has put up top-prospect numbers across the board in the minors for a guy who has played all of 8.2 innings of professional baseball?

This is the insanity I reference.

Garcia has not had sustained success in 6 or 7 years. You have faith that he continues not only through the rest of this year but next year as well? I sure don't.

I wouldn't say I'm eager to ship him out, I'd much rather hold on to him. But is our goal to win the division or win the World Series? Hopefully it's the latter and in that case, we need a bat. If and when we make the playoffs, Hudson wouldn't pitch anyways.

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 11:36 AM
http://fanspeak.com/steveospeak/2010/07/28/are-the-nats-getting-enough-value-for-adam-dunn/

TomBradley72
07-28-2010, 11:47 AM
Wait, why would we have to do something drastic next year to find a starter? Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy are all locks. I doubt Garcia goes anywhere else either. Plus Chris Sale is going to be a starter next year either here or in AAA.

Peavy is far from being a lock for 2011...no guarantee how he'll recover from surgery or the timeline.

dickallen15
07-28-2010, 11:57 AM
Peavy is far from being a lock for 2011...no guarantee how he'll recover from surgery or the timeline.
And Hudson is far from being a lock as a rotation staple. I would rather keep Hudson over any of the others mentioned, but this move would be about this year. If Dunn helps you win it all who really cares what Hudson winds up doing.

TheOldRoman
07-28-2010, 11:59 AM
Peavy is far from being a lock for 2011...no guarantee how he'll recover from surgery or the timeline.I guess technically nobody is ever a "lock", but Peavy will be 100% for opening day. The recovery time is not that bad for this injury, and it isn't like he is dealing with shoulder or elbow surgery. This won't change his motion at all.

voodoochile
07-28-2010, 12:12 PM
This was part of his agreement to sign for slot money. Sox said they would use him as a releiver to limit his innings and give him a shot to make it up to the big leagues this year (and start his MLB service time arbitration clock) and then go back to starting next year. He is going to need time as a starter in the minors even if he makes it up as a LOOGY this Aug/Sept.

Threets is putting a monkey wrench in that plan. I don't doubt they bring him up come September anyway if that's the agreement, but the need for a loogy is definitely less than it was with Threets throwing well.

Milw
07-28-2010, 12:16 PM
I guess technically nobody is ever a "lock", but Peavy will be 100% for opening day. The recovery time is not that bad for this injury, and it isn't like he is dealing with shoulder or elbow surgery. This won't change his motion at all.
Considering Peavy's injury is unprecedented--at least as far as its severity and it happening to a pitcher--I'm not sure why you're so confident about recovery time being "not that bad." The doctors and the Sox are operating under the assumption that Peavy will be ready by next spring, but the fact is, that's really just a guess at this point.

FarmerAndy
07-28-2010, 12:21 PM
because some team is going to be dumb enough to give Dunn 4 years/$60 million.

Dunn @ 4 years/$60 million is a steal. That contract only brings him through age 34. And most guys who hit like Dunn make way more than $15 million per year after free-agency.

FarmerAndy
07-28-2010, 12:23 PM
He's having a great year, but stud/elite he isn't.

He's having a typical Adam Dunn year. And he is a stud/elite hitter.

I don't know of anybody has posted this already, but it's a great comparison of Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard. Do you know how much money Ryan Howard makes? Dunn is a bargain and a half.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/acting-like-adam-dunn-is-ryan-howard/

FarmerAndy
07-28-2010, 12:35 PM
Nevermind that he takes away your best pitching prospect who is currently your #5 starter when you really don't have anyone suitable for that spot in the rotation in your system. So you are downgrading your rotation.

So you're assuming that Hudson IS suitable for the spot?

Hudson is the best pitching prospect in the organization. So that means right now he could be worth more than he ever will be. Use it. Being the top pitching prospect in the Sox organization doesn't guarantee that you will be a really good major league pitcher. In fact, how many top pitching prospects become great, or even above average, pitchers? History shows us that the odds are never positive. That's why I think it's ridiculous that so many fans and GM's alike are so committed to hanging on to prospects. Prospects are trade chips, and should be treated as such. That's why I like Kenny, he gets it.

I'm not saying Hudson won't turn into a fine pitcher. But so far he hasn't done it at the MLB level. (And I know, it's a small sample size.) But guys like Adam Dunn and Prince Fielder are proven, elite players. And I laugh when people balk at the idea of giving up Hudson to bring in a top tier hitter, as if the future of the White Sox hinges on Daniel Hudson.

Zakath
07-28-2010, 12:43 PM
He's having a typical Adam Dunn year. And he is a stud/elite hitter.

I don't know of anybody has posted this already, but it's a great comparison of Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard. Do you know how much money Ryan Howard makes? Dunn is a bargain and a half.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/acting-like-adam-dunn-is-ryan-howard/

That's one stat comparison. Here's a comparison you might want to look at:

Dunn
BA: .251 Career, .278 2010
BA with bases empty: .256 Career, .310 2010
BA with runners on: .246 Career, .239 2010
BA with RISP: .231 Career, .211 2010
BA with RISP and 2 outs: .211 Career, .095 2010

Howard
BA: .282 Career, .302 2010
BA with bases empty: .272 Career, .294 2010
BA with runners on: .293 Career, .311 2010
BA with RISP: .280 Career, .289 2010
BA with RISP and 2 outs: .273 Career, .224 2010

Tragg
07-28-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm not saying Hudson won't turn into a fine pitcher. But so far he hasn't done it at the MLB level. (And I know, it's a small sample size.) But guys like Adam Dunn and Prince Fielder are proven, elite players. And I laugh when people balk at the idea of giving up Hudson to bring in a top tier hitter, as if the future of the White Sox hinges on Daniel Hudson.
Hudson's shown a lot of promise in his starts. No, he isn't ML proven.
Adam Dunn is a RENT. For .4 seasons. He has no position. Fielder is a 1.4 season rent whom we have zero chance of signing.
If 4/60 is a steal, let's sign him. But heck, we wouldn't sign Jim Thome for 1.5 million.
Why do better organizations than the Sox, with far, far more prospects, not use their prospects for rents, if it's such a good idea? The Yankees don't; the RedSox don't; the Cardinals don't; Phillies did ONLY for Cliff Lee; Texas did, but they have probably 5 times the number of prospects the Sox do, and they got the best pitcher available and one of the few best in baseball. Yet we're supposed to load the wagon for a .4 year rent; and the same thing was said for the "elite" AJ Burnett 5 years ago.

Speaking of Texas, they were set up by renting out Texeira.

The Sox have squandered way too many prospects, for very little in return, the last several years. Next year we will have many, many holes to fill on this team. We need young players on this team.

FarmerAndy
07-28-2010, 12:51 PM
That's one stat comparison. Here's a comparison you might want to look at:

Dunn
BA: .251 Career, .278 2010
BA with bases empty: .256 Career, .310 2010
BA with runners on: .246 Career, .239 2010
BA with RISP: .231 Career, .211 2010
BA with RISP and 2 outs: .211 Career, .095 2010

Howard
BA: .282 Career, .302 2010
BA with bases empty: .272 Career, .294 2010
BA with runners on: .293 Career, .311 2010
BA with RISP: .280 Career, .289 2010
BA with RISP and 2 outs: .273 Career, .224 2010

What? You called Fangraphs analysis "one stat comparison," and then post a bunch of stuff only using batting average? That's kind of hilarious.

kittle42
07-28-2010, 12:56 PM
What? You called Fangraphs analysis "one stat comparison," and then post a bunch of stuff only using batting average? That's kind of hilarious.

A lot of people, either purposely or not, have a fundamental either misunderstanding or just general lack of interest in any stats outside the most basic AVG, HR, RBI type stuff.

So in his defense, the stats he presented are indeed "a comparison." A ****ty one, but a comparison nonetheless.

UofCSoxFan
07-28-2010, 01:02 PM
What? You called Fangraphs analysis "one stat comparison," and then post a bunch of stuff only using batting average? That's kind of hilarious.

Especially for a power hitter. This isn't 1950 anymore. There are far better stats out there to measure a hitter's worth.

A 250 hitter, that walks 100 times a year and hits 40 home runs is immensely more valuable that a .300 hitter that walks 20 times a year and hits 2 home runs a year (i.e. Juan Pierre).

Zakath
07-28-2010, 01:06 PM
What? You called Fangraphs analysis "one stat comparison," and then post a bunch of stuff only using batting average? That's kind of hilarious.

wOBA does not take into account the situation during which the hitter comes up. A breakdown of BA shows you what happens when this guy comes up when you need him.

I'm assuming that you're slating Dunn as a clean-up hitter. What's the job of a clean-up hitter?

Get runners home. 1st guy gets on, 2nd moves him over, 3rd and 4th get him home. Just like a closer has one job, so does a cleanup hitter.

Dunn doesn't hit well with runners on, which means he's not doing his job from the 4 spot (and despite the "career" year he's having, he's worse this year at that than he's been in the past). Howard does, and that's why Howard is more valuable than Dunn.

Both have 23 homers, but Dunn has 16 solo shots and only 7 with runners on. Howard has 9 solo shots and 14 with runners on, which is probably why Howard has 20 more RBI's.

What's kind of hilarious is people thinking Dunn is what we need. We need guys who will turn 1-run innings into 2- and 3-run innings, and Dunn doesn't do that.

Big crooked numbers win ballgames.

FarmerAndy
07-28-2010, 01:20 PM
wOBA does not take into account the situation during which the hitter comes up. A breakdown of BA shows you what happens when this guy comes up when you need him.

I'm assuming that you're slating Dunn as a clean-up hitter. What's the job of a clean-up hitter?

Get runners home. 1st guy gets on, 2nd moves him over, 3rd and 4th get him home. Just like a closer has one job, so does a cleanup hitter.

Dunn doesn't hit well with runners on, which means he's not doing his job from the 4 spot (and despite the "career" year he's having, he's worse this year at that than he's been in the past). Howard does, and that's why Howard is more valuable than Dunn.

Both have 23 homers, but Dunn has 16 solo shots and only 7 with runners on. Howard has 9 solo shots and 14 with runners on, which is probably why Howard has 20 more RBI's.

What's kind of hilarious is people thinking Dunn is what we need. We need guys who will turn 1-run innings into 2- and 3-run innings, and Dunn doesn't do that.

Big crooked numbers win ballgames.

A breakdown of BA does not show you what happens when you need him, it's still just a batting average. UofCSoxFan pointed out above, there are a lot better stats that show worth. And that is true no matter how many situations you break it down into.

And now you're posting total RBI comparisons and number of solo shots? Have you looked at the teams they play for? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, Dunn comes to the plate with the bases empty a little more often than Howard does?

I don't think Dunn is all the Sox need. I just think he helps this team more than somebody who has yet to prove he'll even be a replacement level player.

Dunn does, in fact, put up big crooked numbers.

UofCSoxFan
07-28-2010, 01:22 PM
The Sox have squandered way too many prospects, for very little in return, the last several years. Next year we will have many, many holes to fill on this team. We need young players on this team.

What prospects have the Sox squandered that would be helping this team right now?

Gio Gonzalez and Clayton Richard have been solid but would have been fifth starters. John Ely is in minor league ball. Chris Young is a human strikeout. Ryne Sweeney is a corner OF with no power. Brandon McCarthy is on the DL somewhere (and had shown more at the big league level than Hudson has, and got us John Danks).

The only trade KW has made in the past few years that did not work out was the Swisher deal, and that had nothing to do with the fact that Swisher did not have talent. If we got the production he's showing now in NY or the production he showed in Oak, that would have been a steal. I don't blame KW for that one at all.

I'm frankly suprised teams still trade with us since so few of our prospects pan out elsewhere.

FarmerAndy
07-28-2010, 01:34 PM
I'm frankly suprised teams still trade with us since so few of our prospects pan out elsewhere.

Amen to that.

And that's also why it amazes me that so many fans want to cling on to them so badly.

And again, I'm not stating that Daniel Hudson won't amount to anything. Hell, he could become an ace someday, who knows? But if you play the odds, getting proven major league talent for prospects is always a good gamble.

UofCSoxFan
07-28-2010, 01:36 PM
I'm assuming that you're slating Dunn as a clean-up hitter. What's the job of a clean-up hitter?

Get runners home. 1st guy gets on, 2nd moves him over, 3rd and 4th get him home. Just like a closer has one job, so does a cleanup hitter.

Dunn doesn't hit well with runners on, which means he's not doing his job from the 4 spot (and despite the "career" year he's having, he's worse this year at that than he's been in the past). Howard does, and that's why Howard is more valuable than Dunn.

Both have 23 homers, but Dunn has 16 solo shots and only 7 with runners on. Howard has 9 solo shots and 14 with runners on, which is probably why Howard has 20 more RBI's.

What's kind of hilarious is people thinking Dunn is what we need. We need guys who will turn 1-run innings into 2- and 3-run innings, and Dunn doesn't do that.

Big crooked numbers win ballgames.

Howard also has 23 more PAs with RISP than Dunn does this year. He also has more protection behind him. Plus, looking at BA with RISP completely ignores the fact that runners can score via ground out or sac fly.

It's also a stretch to say that Dunn only hit his home runs because runners weren't on base. It's impossible to say for sure. One could argue, with equally thin reasoning, that Dunn could have another 20 to 25rbi's this year if simply more people were on base when he hit his home runs.

To say Dunn doesn't hit when it counts also isn't fair. His OPS Late and Tied or within 1R are both over 1.000 this year.

I'm not sure why we are even comparing Howard and Dunn since one is available and one is not. Even if you concede Howard is the better player, Dunn is clearly the better value at $7 million less per year. I'd take either on this team, however.

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 02:13 PM
I was pretty lucky to meet Hudson & Jones yesterday at Brookfield Zoo. They seem like great guys..

I talked to Hudson for about 15 mins about the trade rumors.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 02:16 PM
I was pretty lucky to meet Hudson & Jones yesterday at Brookfield Zoo. They seem like great guys..

I talked to Hudson for about 15 mins about the trade rumors.

And....

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 02:23 PM
And....

He's hoping to stay with the Sox but has heard the rumors that several teams that want him.

He also said that he wants to win a championship in a Sox uniform.

SephClone89
07-28-2010, 02:44 PM
I was pretty lucky to meet Hudson & Jones yesterday at Brookfield Zoo. They seem like great guys..

I talked to Hudson for about 15 mins about the trade rumors.

Were they just kind of chilling there or...?

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 02:45 PM
Would Dunn bat 3rd in our lineup?

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 02:46 PM
Were they just kind of chilling there or...?

promoting the Sox as well as the Brookfield Zoo.

TheOldRoman
07-28-2010, 02:48 PM
Wait a minute... Rockabilly is actually Southpaw?!

kittle42
07-28-2010, 02:49 PM
photo

Well, now we know who rockabilly is - Southpaw!

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 02:59 PM
Wait, I thought southpaw was a girl? There are probably a few different people who play southpaw anyways.

Craig Grebeck
07-28-2010, 03:18 PM
The Nats aren't cash strapped at all. They are doing fine. They would offer arbitration in a heartbeat because some team is going to be dumb enough to give Dunn 4 years/$60 million. Dunn would never accept arbitration because he knows he will get a much bigger payday on the market. Even if he did accept, the Nats get a productive player for around what they are paying him this year and move him at the deadline next July.
Well said. Agree on all counts.

voodoochile
07-28-2010, 03:30 PM
Would Dunn bat 3rd in our lineup?

5th I think. Maybe 6th if Carlos finds his groove thing again.

Craig Grebeck
07-28-2010, 03:38 PM
5th I think. Maybe 6th if Carlos finds his groove thing again.
I lean towards clean up.

getonbckthr
07-28-2010, 03:42 PM
5th I think. Maybe 6th if Carlos finds his groove thing again.
I would assume a lineup like this:
1) Pierre (L)
2) Alexei (R)
3) Rios (R)
4) Dunn (L)
5) Konerko (R)
6) AJ (L)
7) tCQ (R)
8)Vizquel/Viciedo
9) Beckham (R)

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 03:47 PM
I would assume a lineup like this:
1) Pierre (L)
2) Alexei (R)
3) Rios (R)
4) Dunn (L)
5) Konerko (R)
6) AJ (L)
7) tCQ (R)
8)Vizquel/Viciedo
9) Beckham (R)

I would want Konerko batting cleanup

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 03:54 PM
My lineup

1 Pierre LF
2 Rios CF
3 Dunn/Fielder DH
4 Konerko 1B
5 Quentin RF
6 AJ C
7 Alexei SS
8 Vizquel/Tank 3B
9 Beckham 2B

I would bat Rios 2nd, so he could see many fastballs because of Dunn/Fielder hitting behind him.

Coops4Aces
07-28-2010, 03:55 PM
I would assume a lineup like this:
1) Pierre (L)
2) Alexei (R)
3) Rios (R)
4) Dunn (L)
5) Konerko (R)
6) AJ (L)
7) tCQ (R)
8)Vizquel/Viciedo
9) Beckham (R)

I doubt it. Ozzie likes Vizquel at 2nd. And AJ won't bat in front of Quentin, and maybe not Ramirez either.

Pierre
Vizquel
Rios
Paulie
Dunn
Quentin
AJ
Ramirez
Beckham

sox1970
07-28-2010, 04:11 PM
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/19769318680

:(:

Baron
07-28-2010, 04:13 PM
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/19769318680

:(:

Well if they are in the bidding that pretty much takes us out of it.Rays have more trade pieces than we do

oeo
07-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Well if they are in the bidding that pretty much takes us out of it.Rays have more trade pieces than we do

Unless Kenny overpays, which he usually does when he wants something.

I want the Sox to acquire Luke Scott anyway. Cheaper and I have a really bad feeling Dunn is going to flop like he did with the D'Backs a couple years ago.

Baron
07-28-2010, 04:21 PM
Unless Kenny overpays, which he usually does when he wants something.

I want the Sox to acquire Luke Scott anyway. Cheaper and I have a really bad feeling Dunn is going to flop like he did with the D'Backs a couple years ago.

Well really if were bidding against the Rays for him then Gordon Beckham is the only way your going to aquire him

oeo
07-28-2010, 04:25 PM
Well really if were bidding against the Rays for him then Gordon Beckham is the only way your going to aquire him

It's all a matter of what the Rays think he's worth. Obviously they could put together a better package than the Sox, and most teams. That doesn't mean they're going to do it.

JermaineDye05
07-28-2010, 04:34 PM
Rays certainly have the prospects to get Dunn. The question is are they willing to part with them.

I still believe the Tigers are gonna come out of nowhere and get him.

Baron
07-28-2010, 04:35 PM
Rays certainly have the prospects to get Dunn. The question is are they willing to part with them.

I still believe the Tigers are gonna come out of nowhere and get him.


I sure hope not....

getonbckthr
07-28-2010, 04:37 PM
Rays certainly have the prospects to get Dunn. The question is are they willing to part with them.

I still believe the Tigers are gonna come out of nowhere and get him.
If they do Detroit is stupid. There team is not good enough with or without Dunn to win the division.

Foulke You
07-28-2010, 04:41 PM
Rays certainly have the prospects to get Dunn. The question is are they willing to part with them.
The question could be more about dollars for the Rays. Remember, they are a small market and cash strapped team with not a whole lot of TV and luxury suite revenue. They may not have the available funds to absorb even 2 months of Dunn's contract. If the Nats absorb the contract, the Rays might be willing to offer more in the way of prospects. I'm not saying this is the case, just an observation based on what I know about the Rays.

oeo
07-28-2010, 04:43 PM
Rays certainly have the prospects to get Dunn. The question is are they willing to part with them.

I still believe the Tigers are gonna come out of nowhere and get him.

I would LOL, Tigers are going nowhere. I don't think Dombrowski is going to do anything. Tigers have more problems than one or two to just go out and fix them at the deadline.

FYI, according to Joel Sherman, Yankees have also inquired but the Giants and Sox seem to be bigger players. Rays are worried whether he would adapt to being a DH.

http://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/19772102251

Baron
07-28-2010, 04:43 PM
Joelsherman1

#Yankees have inquired on Dunn, but #Giants, #Whitesox appear stronger players #Rays worried if he would adapt mentally to DH

There you go....ultimately I think we will get Dunn

Baron
07-28-2010, 04:43 PM
I would LOL, Tigers are going nowhere.

FYI, according to Joel Sherman, Yankees have also inquired but the Giants and Sox seem to be bigger players. Rays are worried whether he would adapt to being a DH.

http://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/19772102251

Beat me by seconds :tongue:

russ99
07-28-2010, 04:52 PM
If we get Dunn, Ozzie may need to do a juggling act to ensure no one player is DH too often, since most of our players suited for DH really don't want to DH.

I'd think Dunn, Quentin, Konerko and Pierre would get regular DH rotation, with others in when they need a day off the field.

UofCSoxFan
07-28-2010, 04:59 PM
If we get Dunn, Ozzie may need to do a juggling act to ensure no one player is DH too often, since most of our players suited for DH really don't want to DH.

I'd think Dunn, Quentin, Konerko and Pierre would get regular DH rotation, with others in when they need a day off the field.

I think Ozzie has been pretty effective in using the DH already and would be up to the task. Konerko still gets most of the time at 1B as he actually has turned himself into a pretty good defensive first baseman, depite limted range. Dunn can get a start or two a week there and maybe 1 start a week in the OF if that will keep him happy.

JermaineDye05
07-28-2010, 11:11 PM
Buster Olney says on SC that the Sox are the favorite.

I never like to here that.

Corlose 15
07-28-2010, 11:27 PM
Buster Olney says on SC that the Sox are the favorite.

I never like to here that.

Everybody's been saying that, it doesn't really mean anything.

I think the longer Dunn goes without signing an extension the more likely he is to get traded. Hopefully the Nats crack before KW does.:cool:

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 11:33 PM
I have no idea about this website ( except that Chet Coppock works there) but Black and Blue City is reporting that Ted Lilly will be traded to the White Sox.

Does anyone know about this website?

JermaineDye05
07-28-2010, 11:41 PM
I have no idea about this website ( except that Chet Coppock works there) but Black and Blue City is reporting that Ted Lilly will be traded to the White Sox.

Does anyone know about this website?

No, sounds like something created in someone's basement.

EDIT: You are right that they're reporting that though. Link (http://twitter.com/blacknbluecity/status/19794461127)

DSpivack
07-28-2010, 11:41 PM
I have no idea about this website ( except that Chet Coppock works there) but Black and Blue City is reporting that Ted Lilly will be traded to the White Sox.

Does anyone know about this website?

Nope, but generally when I see things like that I Google News search the related story. In this case, nothing comes up.

EDIT: Apparently that's a tv show on WCIU hosted by Chet Coppock. Who knew.

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 11:42 PM
No, sounds like something created in someone's basement.

I guess some Chicago radio guy Joel Radwanski is reporting it

JermaineDye05
07-28-2010, 11:44 PM
I guess some Chicago radio guy Joel Radwanski is reporting it

I hate to discriminate against them, but they only have 97 followers.

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 11:48 PM
its also on their face book page.. The radio guy is saying his sources are telling him its a done deal.

Rockabilly
07-28-2010, 11:50 PM
If somehow that the Lilly rumor is true and the Sox also get Dunn/Fielder. We will be set for the playoff run.

JermaineDye05
07-28-2010, 11:50 PM
its also on their face book page.. The radio guy is saying his sources are telling him its a done deal.

IF his sources are correct (sounds fishy though), let's hope that mean's we'll have a DUNN deal soon. :redneck

october23sp
07-29-2010, 12:00 AM
Dunn will be a White Sox player 7/30.

/prediction.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:02 AM
Who would the Cubs want for Lilly?

Also, count me in on a Quentin for Dunn deal if that is even a posibility.

Save my other assets for another SP like Lilly.

If we can get Dunn and Lilly and not lose Hudson and Beckham, I think we should all be happy!

october23sp
07-29-2010, 12:02 AM
For some reason I believe the Lilly report. With Kenny, it always seems like a random source picks up on it before a major one.

october23sp
07-29-2010, 12:05 AM
Who would the Cubs want for Lilly?

Also, count me in on a Quentin for Dunn deal if that is even a posibility.

Save my other assets for another SP like Lilly.

If we can get Dunn and Lilly and not lose Hudson and Beckham, I think we should all be happy!

I wouldn't mind saying bye bye to Hudson if we got Lilly. Keep TCQ and trade Hudson and Jordan Danks.

What do we need Hudson for if we get Lilly?

JermaineDye05
07-29-2010, 12:07 AM
I wouldn't mind saying bye bye to Hudson if we got Lilly. Keep TCQ and trade Hudson and Jordan Danks.

What do we need Hudson for if we get Lilly?

Yeah, I'd like to think that we could get Lilly for some lesser prospects and then trade the good ones to Washington.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:07 AM
I wouldn't mind saying bye bye to Hudson if we got Lilly. Keep TCQ and trade Hudson and Jordan Danks.

What do we need Hudson for if we get Lilly?


I think Quentin is the only single players that can land us Dunn straight up (or maybe I am dreaming).

Hudson + Danks does not net out Dunn + Lilly.

Coops4Aces
07-29-2010, 12:09 AM
I'm skeptical. "Word is the two teams are figuring out who the Cubs are getting." Come on. That just doesn't sound right.

Baron
07-29-2010, 12:12 AM
Id like to have Ted Lilly....but this stinks of BS

october23sp
07-29-2010, 12:12 AM
I'm skeptical. "Word is the two teams are figuring out who the Cubs are getting." Come on. That just doesn't sound right.

I was skeptical about the first Peavy trade last year. It was some dude on a Sox message board.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2010, 12:13 AM
I'm skeptical. "Word is the two teams are figuring out who the Cubs are getting." Come on. That just doesn't sound right.

Yeah.

So they just agreed to trade Ted Lilly to the White Sox?

voodoochile
07-29-2010, 12:16 AM
Yeah.

So they just agreed to trade Ted Lilly to the White Sox?

Well he's a FA after this year and the flubbies are out of the race so maybe they figure they can pick apart our minor league system for some pieces or maybe they are forcing Zambrano into the trade...:tongue:

Rockabilly
07-29-2010, 12:17 AM
They reported this over 2 hours ago, if its true why hasn't anyone else picked up on this yet.

I am hoping the Sox do add Lilly and Dunn.

voodoochile
07-29-2010, 12:18 AM
Peavy Hudson and Jordan Danks/Flowers for Lilly and Big Z...

oeo
07-29-2010, 12:18 AM
I was skeptical about the first Peavy trade last year. It was some dude on a Sox message board.

I remember a San Diego paper reporting it. They said Peavy was informed of the trade before he left the clubhouse that night.

Baron
07-29-2010, 12:19 AM
I didnt hear anything yet.....looks like Oswalt just got traded(pending his approval)....but other than that nothing

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:20 AM
Peavy Hudson and Jordan Danks/Flowers for Lilly and Big Z...

On a serious note, if we could unload an injured Peavy I would be all for it.

I'm concerned about him not being the same with this injury. That contract is going to kill us if he can't pitch like an ACE again.

Would you guys take Zambrano for Peavy, right now, today?

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:21 AM
I didnt hear anything yet.....looks like Oswalt just got traded(pending his approval)....but other than that nothing


Where to?

JermaineDye05
07-29-2010, 12:21 AM
Where to?

Philadelphia is what Ken Rosenthal says.

PalehosePlanet
07-29-2010, 12:21 AM
I think Quentin is the only single players that can land us Dunn straight up (or maybe I am dreaming).

Hudson + Danks does not net out Dunn + Lilly.

Two months of Dunn instead of three years of Quentin? I think you're nightmaring.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2010, 12:25 AM
Two months of Dunn instead of three years of Quentin? I think you're nightmaring.

Yeah, what was I thinking.

Maybe the Nationals would be happy with Lillibridge.

TomBradley72
07-29-2010, 07:16 AM
I'm starting to move into the "stand pat" camp.

Great chemistry, minimal base cloggers/strike out guys (2nd fewest team strike outs in the AL), extended run now of playing .600+ ball....I'm sure I'm in the minority...but not interested in giving up any significant pieces for 8 weeks of Adam Dunn (or Prince Fielder).

sox1970
07-29-2010, 07:28 AM
I'm starting to move into the "stand pat" camp.

Great chemistry, minimal base cloggers/strike out guys (2nd fewest team strike outs in the AL), extended run now of playing .600+ ball....I'm sure I'm in the minority...but not interested in giving up any significant pieces for 8 weeks of Adam Dunn (or Prince Fielder).

I'm not going to address Fielder because that's not going to happen. But Dunn really isn't a clogger. He can run a lot better than Thome ever could. And strikeouts? Who cares? He's a .400 OBP guy that could hit 15+ homers over the last 9 weeks...and then we'd also have him for October when, you know, the Sox would be trying to win a World Series.

If the Sox can get Dunn and Lilly or another veteran 5th starter for Hudson, and a few more prospects, you got to do it. Chemistry is winning, and they would be in a better position to win the division and beyond.

hawkjt
07-29-2010, 08:24 AM
I'm starting to move into the "stand pat" camp.

Great chemistry, minimal base cloggers/strike out guys (2nd fewest team strike outs in the AL), extended run now of playing .600+ ball....I'm sure I'm in the minority...but not interested in giving up any significant pieces for 8 weeks of Adam Dunn (or Prince Fielder).


I am in the tweaking mode,not trading away our future in Carlos,Hudson,Viciedo,Morel or Beckham.

Just get a veteran starter of some ilk, and/or maybe a lefty hitter like Hawpe or Kelly Johnson,or possibly Berkman.

Use Jordan Danks,Torres,Nunez,Escobar to fetch some lesser vets.

ndgt10
07-29-2010, 08:27 AM
Nats want Garza and Tim Beckham from TB for Dunn.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 08:29 AM
Nats want Garza and Tim Beckham from TB for Dunn.

They're out of their ****ing mind.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2010, 08:31 AM
I'm starting to move into the "stand pat" camp.

Great chemistry, minimal base cloggers/strike out guys (2nd fewest team strike outs in the AL), extended run now of playing .600+ ball....I'm sure I'm in the minority...but not interested in giving up any significant pieces for 8 weeks of Adam Dunn (or Prince Fielder).
Which says nothing at all, really. This team is 27th in BB in baseball. They need a bat, badly.

Red Barchetta
07-29-2010, 08:41 AM
I don't want Beckham moved in any deal. I like the idea of him, Alexi and Rios in the middle of our defense for many years...

asindc
07-29-2010, 08:42 AM
Nats want Garza and Tim Beckham from TB for Dunn.

I've become a Nats fan, and even I think Rizzo is on crack if he truly thinks that TB would go for that.

russ99
07-29-2010, 08:54 AM
Cowley in the Times today says the Nats want Hudson and Viciedo. I wouldn't do that unless Dunn can be signed.

ndgt10
07-29-2010, 08:56 AM
Cowley in the Times today says the Nats want Hudson and Viciedo. I wouldn't do that unless Dunn can be signed.

Torres and Viciedo wouod be much better.

dickallen15
07-29-2010, 08:58 AM
Yeah.

So they just agreed to trade Ted Lilly to the White Sox?

Its possible if they agreed to pick up the money.

sox1970
07-29-2010, 08:59 AM
Cowley in the Times today says the Nats want Hudson and Viciedo. I wouldn't do that unless Dunn can be signed.

Maybe the Nats would tack on a lower level prospect coming back to the Sox.

Also, what would the Sox get in draft pick compensation if Dunn comes here and doesn't re-sign? One or two picks?

doublem23
07-29-2010, 09:00 AM
Also, what would the Sox get in draft pick compensation if Dunn comes here and doesn't re-sign? One or two picks?

Two picks.

We'd get a Sandwich round pick for sure (between 1st and 2nd round) and then either a 1st or 2nd round pick depending on where the team who signed him is in the draft order; If the team holds one of the 1st 15 picks, we'd get their 2nd round pick; teams 16-30 we'd get their 1st rounder.

TheOldRoman
07-29-2010, 09:01 AM
Chet Coppick reported the Sox are getting Lily? I don't hold my breathe. I am still waiting for the Sox to trade for Jason Schmidt as he reported was a "done deal" in July of 2005.

sox1970
07-29-2010, 09:05 AM
Two picks.

We'd get a Sandwich round pick for sure (between 1st and 2nd round) and then either a 1st or 2nd round pick depending on where the team who signed him is in the draft order; If the team holds one of the 1st 15 picks, we'd get their 2nd round pick; teams 16-30 we'd get their 1st rounder.

So you move a few young players, and you either re-sign Dunn for 4 years or you replenish the system next June. Make the deal.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 09:10 AM
So you move a few young players, and you either re-sign Dunn for 4 years or you replenish the system next June. Make the deal.

On paper, but the Sox's pitching stable of Peavy-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks starts to dissolve after 2011, so I'm wary of trading some key pieces to the MLB club, like Beckham, for a 2-month rental for Dunn. I think that prematurely closes the window. Obviously there's something going on with this team.

From all reported sources the Nats and Brewers want the ****ing moon for Dunn and Fielder. We'll see how things shake out but right now I'm pretty firmly in the "whatever the Sox do, I'll be happy" camp. If they make a move to go for it in 2010, great. If they stand pat and see how things shake down this off-season for the 2011 year, that's great, too.

Remember, there are plenty of clowns who still rip on Ron Schueler for not throwing more chips in the pot during the 2000 season, when a lot of the younger guys that may have been dealt wound up being key pieces (or traded later for other key pieces) to the 2005 team.

At any rate, considering where the Sox were in early June, it's refreshing to talk like we're buyers and watch important games in July and August.

Tragg
07-29-2010, 09:17 AM
Make a waiver deal for salary to bring in a lefty hitter.

Don't do rents and don't overpay - because 3/4 major deals we make, we do overpay.

Dunn isn't what we need long term. We need an athletic right fielder.

You don't just replenish the farm system in a draft. This organization has struggled with high round picks, wont pay over slot, etc.

TomBradley72
07-29-2010, 09:26 AM
Torres and Viciedo wouod be much better.

Hudson and Torres would be better...Viciedo is going to be a star...for many years. Hudson...#3 starter at best.

If KW is getting Lilly, then he might be setting up Hudson in a package for Dunn.

Hitmen77
07-29-2010, 09:28 AM
Buster Olney says on SC that the Sox are the favorite.

I never like to here that.

Last winter people were saying the Sox were favorites to sign Johnny Damon. This media rumors are useless.

Hudson isn't going anywhere unless the Sox work another deal to bring a serviceable 5th starter here. If Dunn is on the Sox next week, I'll be stunned. We're standing pat or we're getting a marginal upgrade. The rest of this Dunn and Fielder talk is just deep pink stuff.

I'm skeptical. "Word is the two teams are figuring out who the Cubs are getting." Come on. That just doesn't sound right.

I have serious doubts that Lilly is coming to the Sox. IMO, trades with the Cubs can be tricky. How do Cub fans react if Hendry trades a SP to the Sox and he helps the hated Sox get to another World Series. On the other hand, trade away young talent to your crosstown rival and you might never live it down in if they turn into all-stars. Remember the Sox getting "proven bat" George Bell in exchange for some skinny raw talent player? What about the Cubs looking for bullpen help and trading away a first round pick starting pitcher?

Maybe KW and Hendry don't care about these things, but I'm just saying that, from a fans perspective, it can be tricky.

doublem23
07-29-2010, 09:30 AM
Don't do rents and don't overpay - because 3/4 major deals we make, we do overpay.


:violin:

Will you shut up with this line? Aside from the Swisher deal, when else have we "overpayed?" Peavy? No. Danks? No. Floyd? No. Vazquez? No.

God damn it.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 09:39 AM
Last winter people were saying the Sox were favorites to sign Johnny Damon. This media rumors are useless.

Hudson isn't going anywhere unless the Sox work another deal to bring a serviceable 5th starter here. If Dunn is on the Sox next week, I'll be stunned. We're standing pat or we're getting a marginal upgrade. The rest of this Dunn and Fielder talk is just deep pink stuff.


I have serious doubts that Lilly is coming to the Sox. IMO, trades with the Cubs can be tricky. How do Cub fans react if Hendry trades a SP to the Sox and he helps the hated Sox get to another World Series. On the other hand, trade away young talent to your crosstown rival and you might never live it down in if they turn into all-stars. Remember the Sox getting "proven bat" George Bell in exchange for some skinny raw talent player? What about the Cubs looking for bullpen help and trading away a first round pick starting pitcher?

Maybe KW and Hendry don't care about these things, but I'm just saying that, from a fans perspective, it can be tricky.

I honestly doubt it plays into their thinking at all. Sure there are idiots on both sides that rather not improve their team if it may also help the cross-town rival but I'm sure both teams would rather trade to the other league than say in their own division.

Besides the Cubs already helped the White Sox win a World Series with the Jon Garland trade.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2010, 09:40 AM
:violin:

Will you shut up with this line? Aside from the Swisher deal, when else have we "overpayed?" Peavy? No. Danks? No. Floyd? No. Vazquez? No.

God damn it.

We gave up a lot for Geroge Bell 20 some years ago.

TomBradley72
07-29-2010, 09:42 AM
Don't do rents and don't overpay - because 3/4 major deals we make, we do overpay.



No...we always THINK we overpaid...and then it turns out (the majority of the time) KW was right.

We traded Jeremy Reed! We traded Chris Young! We traded Brandon Allen! We traded Brandon McCarthy!

russ99
07-29-2010, 09:44 AM
No...we always THINK we overpaid...and then it turns out (the majority of the time) KW was right.

We traded Jeremy Reed! We traded Chris Young! We traded Brandon Allen! We traded Brandon McCarthy!

Yeah, but if the Hudson/Viciedo rumor is true, this is like trading Chris Young and Brandon McCarthy for a guy we'll have for 2-3 months, not one of them for a guy who will fill a hole for 3-4 years, and the compensation picks only happen if the Sox offer arbitration.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of giving away the future just because we don't want Mark Kotsay in the lineup. Besides, Kenny can acquire someone better than Kotsay without scorching the farm.

Tragg
07-29-2010, 09:46 AM
No...we always THINK we overpaid...and then it turns out (the majority of the time) KW was right.

We traded Jeremy Reed! We traded Chris Young! We traded Brandon Allen! We traded Brandon McCarthy!
I generally do think we overpay in his big deals at the time. But I judge that by comparing what other teams deal for similar players, not necessarily by the results. The results tell whether the trade was good or bad, and on big deals, Williams' record is more bad than good. On small deals, he's the other way.
Just a few of your examples:
Brandon Allen - wow, we got Tony Pena.
Chris Young (and 3 ML relief pitchers) - wow, we got Flowers; Chris Young was on the all star team this year.
Peavy - just compare to Oswalt