PDA

View Full Version : Ozzie reverting to closer-by-committee


Sockinchisox
07-22-2010, 12:14 AM
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/19230660987

rdwj
07-22-2010, 12:18 AM
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/19230660987

Makes sense - With the Tigers losing 7 in a row before tonight, we wasted a golden opportunity to put them and the Twins way back in the standings. Bobby's name is on two of those loses despite what the record book says. Ozzie can't afford to keep marching him out there until he's back to normal. Hopefully this is just a bad spell.

soulfly
07-22-2010, 12:18 AM
Yea but how much stock can you put into anything he says these days?

If anything, Jenks won't get to close for a few games if history repeats itself yet again with Oz.

BleacherBandit
07-22-2010, 12:19 AM
I don't like this but it's the only way to solve the Jenks diliemma. If anything, he should just suck it up and perform better. There's seriously a mental barrier prohibiting him from competing the way we all know he's capable of. He isn't locating his pitches and isn't appropriating them in the correct fashion. What was with all those hanging fastballs tonight? Come on.


You'll think, "Well, Thornton or Putz make very good closers on any team" but remember that you're co-opting them from their positions as 7th and 8th inning set-up men. Their presence in those positions are intregal to the success of the White Sox.

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2010, 12:22 AM
What was with all those hanging fastballs tonight? How do you hang a fastball? Fastballs can be straight, but not hanging.

hi im skot
07-22-2010, 12:24 AM
How do you hang a fastball? Fastballs can be straight, but not hanging.

That's how bad Jenks is right now!

/teal

BleacherBandit
07-22-2010, 12:25 AM
How do you hang a fastball? Fastballs can be straight, but not hanging.

I'm not straight with the pitching terminology at this hour. Sorry. But you understand that the location wasn't good tonight.

sox1970
07-22-2010, 12:25 AM
5.09 ERA for Jenks. Yeah, we can do better than that.

kevingrt
07-22-2010, 12:26 AM
Like what Ozzie is doing. Hopefully it works out.

WhiteSox5187
07-22-2010, 12:27 AM
Yea but how much stock can you put into anything he says these days?

If anything, Jenks won't get to close for a few games if history repeats itself yet again with Oz.

You know Bobby is paid to close games and if he is getting guys out regularly (which is what he started doing last time Ozzie did this), I don't mind seeing him in the ninth inning role. When he's on he's hard to hit. But when he's scuffling like this, he can't be trusted in a pennant race. He deserved a shot after Sunday, he got it today and blew it and now Ozzie is making the right move.

kevingrt
07-22-2010, 12:31 AM
You know Bobby is paid to close games and if he is getting guys out regularly (which is what he started doing last time Ozzie did this), I don't mind seeing him in the ninth inning role. When he's on he's hard to hit. But when he's scuffling like this, he can't be trusted in a pennant race. He deserved a shot after Sunday, he got it today and blew it and now Ozzie is making the right move.

Agree. He did this earlier in the season when he blew a tied game and then blew a close opportunity. Bobby was out of the closer spot for a bit but then came back and pitched an awesome June. Hopefully the same thing happens and Bobby refinds/regains the closer-quality stuff he had in June for a pennant run in late August and September.

But right now we cannot be wasting leads and wins in the bottom halves of innings. It is too hard to watch and probably too hard for the other 24 guys on the roster to stomach.

Sockinchisox
07-22-2010, 12:32 AM
What about just moving Putz to closer and Santos into the 7/8th inning right handed set-up man role?

Suburbanbuddha
07-22-2010, 12:33 AM
I think its the right move... For now anyway. Bobby's gotta get right to take this division.

WhiteSox5187
07-22-2010, 12:34 AM
What about just moving Putz to closer and Santos into the 7/8th inning right handed set-up man role?

I suspect you're going to be seeing Putz out there more often than not, but if it's the sort of thing where in the ninth you have two left handed hitters coming up, Thornton might be in there. It's not like there's going to be three different guys in there on three different nights.

1989
07-22-2010, 12:41 AM
5.09 ERA for Jenks. Yeah, we can do better than that.

What's his FIP? It has to be worse

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2010, 12:42 AM
It's a bad time for it to happen, but it's definitely time to move Bobby to another role until he shows he's got it back. One horrible outing vs. Minnesota was not enough; anybody can have that. I'm tired of everybody on the post-game show saying "this is on Ozzie." A manager has to give his closer a second chance, he just has to.

Now it's time to try something else, probably Putz. I love Thornton, but I'm afraid he's pretty much a one-pitch pitcher, and his one pitch is a fairly straight 96-97 fastball. With no change of speed, and no other pitch to keep hitters off balance, I just don't see him as a closer.

BleacherBandit
07-22-2010, 12:49 AM
Now it's time to try something else, probably Putz. I love Thornton, but I'm afraid he's pretty much a one-pitch pitcher, and his one pitch is a fairly straight 96-97 fastball. With no change of speed, and no other pitch to keep hitters off balance, I just don't see him as a closer.

Jenks isn't a one pitch-pitcher...remember how in '08 he tried to model himself as more of a finesse pitcher than a flamethrower? Well, we can all remember how awesome he was initially in his career when he was hitting 98 mph regularly and using the fastball primarily. Well, Thornton has that plus he's a left-handed which is somewhat polarizing to some hitters. I wouldn't mind seeing Thornton in the 9th inning role.

hawkjt
07-22-2010, 12:53 AM
Good call by Ozzie. Bobby is just not in a groove right now...so go with JJ or Matt depending on the situation for awhile,and get Bobby in under better circumstances to get his stuff together.

Rohan
07-22-2010, 01:10 AM
Here's what gets me about Jenks. The only times that he is completely hittable on the mound is when he doesn't have/isn't using his hammer curve ball. I don't get why they just can't see if he has it in the bullpen before sending him out in a close situation. It doesn't make sense.

SoxandtheCityTee
07-22-2010, 01:14 AM
This had to happen, even if, as Nellie points out, the timing is bad. Can't just keep running Jenks out there now. I hope he can right the ship.

thomas35forever
07-22-2010, 01:39 AM
If Jenks came into one more game and blew it, that might have been Ozzie's head as well as his own. This indeed needed to happen, especially with the team in a pennant race. We can't afford to give ground to the Tigers and Twins like we did tonight. Bring in Putz the next time a save situation arises. He's done this before and he's hot right now.

TheCQExperience
07-22-2010, 01:44 AM
This is just wishful thinking but it would be nice if they could flip him to a team who is desperate for relief pitching for a decent prospect or two who we could either keep or use to trade for anyone that isn't Kotsay or Jones. The Phillies come to mind.

ghostface36
07-22-2010, 01:47 AM
my chi six brethren the choice is clear to me
starter goes for lets say 6IP in average ( have no clue what it is)
santos in the 7th thornton in the 8th and putz closing he's had two 35+ save seasons and whats better is his WHIP 0.77 over 36 innings and his era+ is 295
i think that jj cat shut guys down in the 9th just as good as in the 8th

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2010, 02:02 AM
my chi six brethren the choice is clear to me
starter goes for lets say 6IP in average ( have no clue what it is)
santos in the 7th thornton in the 8th and putz closing he's had two 35+ save seasons and whats better is his WHIP 0.77 over 36 innings and his era+ is 295
i think that jj cat shut guys down in the 9th just as good as in the 8thShift key. Punctuation. Your posts are terrible to read.

ghostface36
07-22-2010, 02:25 AM
This is just wishful thinking but it would be nice if they could flip him to a team who is desperate for relief pitching for a decent prospect or two who we could either keep or use to trade for anyone that isn't Kotsay or Jones. The Phillies come to mind.
yea we could trade jenks i don't think it would happen but kenny is kenny. That being said I think we'd get greats amount of talent in return for him id expect at least one good LH batter and 2 good prospects, and you can slide putz or thornton into a closers roles rifght away,
but i don't think the sox would trade jenks this year

ghostface36
07-22-2010, 02:42 AM
Shift key. Punctuation. Your posts are terrible to read.
Okay, I meant to say, we wouldn't have a problem trading Jenks. Thornton and Putz are both able to slide in the closers role. Also, putz has saved 40 games and 36 games with the mariners, so i don't think he'd have a problem closing games

HomeFish
07-22-2010, 03:48 AM
I would have just made Putz the closer. Of course I'd have traded Jenks durin the offseason (and traded Konerko in May)

LITTLE NELL
07-22-2010, 05:05 AM
Bullpen by commitee works for me, 59 Sox had 2 closers with Turk Lown (15 saves) and Gerry Staley (14 saves).

dickallen15
07-22-2010, 06:21 AM
Ozzie said he was going to bullpen by committee earlier this year, but actually never did. I'll believe it when I see it.

russ99
07-22-2010, 06:35 AM
Suposedly Kenny's looking for another reliever, so if that goes down, we can use Putz as closer.

I have to wonder if Bobby is hurt again, since this happened the last few times when he tried to pitch through an injury.

Hartman
07-22-2010, 06:41 AM
Closer by committee? Just name a ****ing closer and move on.

bigdommer
07-22-2010, 06:55 AM
If Jenks goes away, you still have Santos/Thornton to pitch the 7th & 8th with Putz doing most of the closing. I would rather be somewhat thin in the 6th than be a total gasoline fire in the 9th.

Either KW will have to require a middle relief arm, or someone like a Threets (who has been strong in limited action) or Pena (wildly inconsistent) will have to step up.

It's unfortunate that KW didn't unload Jenks when he had some value. While still somewhat effective, I believe that his salary was no longer justified by his performance once he hit arbitration. However, KW did pick him up off the scrap heap and got a couple of All-Star seasons and a World Series winner. So, KW gets a gold star in my book for the Bobby Jenks era.

Stephen Jaworski
07-22-2010, 07:11 AM
To all of the Bobby Jenks sycophants that congregate here: It's time for Chubby Choker to twist his butt onto the MLB waiver wire.

His ERA and WHIP (5.09 and 1.58) are the WORST among all closers with 15 or more saves. During the last month, after a fluke stretch of brilliance in June, Jenks has regressed into a putrid 7.27/1.62 pile of pennant-killing incompetence.

Bring back Billy Koch. Send out a transcontinental SOS for Shingo. But abort the failed BJ experiment, Mr. Williams. His arm is kaput. So is his brain.

:angry:

P.S. Big Bob's career ERA/WHIP/BAA with RUNNERS ON BASE? 5.59/1.27/.247. Mariano Rivera's comparable stats, you may be wondering? 3.71/0.96/.207. Joe Nathan? 4.84/1.07/.198. J.J. Putz? 4.83/1.23/.238.

Career ERA with BASES LOADED? Jenks 21.60 (8.1 Innings), Putz 4.50 (18.0 IN).

doublem23
07-22-2010, 08:02 AM
Okay, I meant to say, we wouldn't have a problem trading Jenks. Thornton and Putz are both able to slide in the closers role. Also, putz has saved 40 games and 36 games with the mariners, so i don't think he'd have a problem closing games

Teams are going to be lining up to give us fair value for a guy who is struggling, makes $7.5 M this year, and still has a year left of arbitration.

/no they won't

Craig Grebeck
07-22-2010, 08:06 AM
We're not trading for another reliever. We're bringing up Sale eventually.

hawkjt
07-22-2010, 08:45 AM
To all of the Bobby Jenks sycophants that congregate here: It's time for Chubby Choker to twist his butt onto the MLB waiver wire.

His ERA and WHIP (5.09 and 1.58) are the WORST among all closers with 15 or more saves. During the last month, after a fluke stretch of brilliance in June, Jenks has regressed into a putrid 7.27/1.62 pile of pennant-killing incompetence.

Bring back Billy Koch. Send out a transcontinental SOS for Shingo. But abort the failed BJ experiment, Mr. Williams. His arm is kaput. So is his brain.

:angry:


Where are people like this when Bobby is nailing down 17 straight saves giving up only 1 run total in June?
They seem to surface only when things go south.
Bobby will be back and in September,guys like this will disapear again,thankfully.

tstrike2000
07-22-2010, 09:32 AM
5.09 ERA for Jenks. Yeah, we can do better than that.

And 2 blown saves in 4 days that would've really been nice to cushion a lead going into 2 crucial months of baseball.

Vestigio
07-22-2010, 09:38 AM
Ozzie said he was going to bullpen by committee earlier this year, but actually never did. I'll believe it when I see it.

These are two entirely different situations. The first time Ozzie said there would be a committee of closers, the Sox were in the cellar. They were more than likely showcasing Jenks for a possible trade. Currently, the Sox are in first and can't afford to give up ground to the Tigers or Twins.

Huisj
07-22-2010, 10:02 AM
Jenks closing for the Sox is starting to make me think of Lidge closing for the Phillies last year. They seemed to win despite him being their closer, and by later in the year, they kind of went to a closer-by-committee system but still used him some...and he continued to be unpredictable and stinky with an ERA of 7.

Hartman
07-22-2010, 10:30 AM
We're not trading for another reliever. We're bringing up Sale eventually.

Awesome, let's rush another #1 pick up to the majors!

Hitmen77
07-22-2010, 10:33 AM
Makes sense - With the Tigers losing 7 in a row before tonight, we wasted a golden opportunity to put them and the Twins way back in the standings. Bobby's name is on two of those loses despite what the record book says. Ozzie can't afford to keep marching him out there until he's back to normal. Hopefully this is just a bad spell.

We now play an Oakland team that has been on a hot streak and the Twins get to face Baltimore at home. The Tigers play at home this weekend too where they are usually pretty tough.

So, if we keep blowing ballgames, we can't count on the Tigers and Twins to stumble too to help us maintain our lead.

Not that Bobby was the only person who failed to get the job done for the Sox this past week (remember 5 unearned runs on Friday?). But, what a difference the 2 blown saves make for how things are looking for us. Without these two meltdowns, we're 5 1/2 up on the Twins and 4 1/2 up on the Tigers and we'd be carrying a great 5-2 roadtrip record to Oakland.

Like I said, he's not the only one who let the Sox down this week, but the timing of these two blown saves are huge.

HomeFish
07-22-2010, 11:50 AM
There is some insane dark cloud posting going on in this thread.

Jenks being worse than Koch? Calls for Jenks to be waived? Insanity.

Jenks has lost his stuff, he should be demoted to mop-up duty with Linebrink for a while. Maybe if he heats up again he can become a setup man for J.J. Putz, who should be our closer.

Hartman
07-22-2010, 03:59 PM
There is some insane dark cloud posting going on in this thread.

Jenks being worse than Koch? Calls for Jenks to be waived? Insanity.

Jenks has lost his stuff, he should be demoted to mop-up duty with Linebrink for a while. Maybe if he heats up again he can become a setup man for J.J. Putz, who should be our closer.

Even most of Bobby's saves this year were not without dramatics and could have EASILY turned into blown saves. Bobby has had "his stuff" for about 3 weeks total this season, and that's it.

oeo
07-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Makes sense - With the Tigers losing 7 in a row before tonight, we wasted a golden opportunity to put them and the Twins way back in the standings. Bobby's name is on two of those loses despite what the record book says. Ozzie can't afford to keep marching him out there until he's back to normal. Hopefully this is just a bad spell.

Would have been nice to have those extra games on the Twins, but the Tigers can stick around and give themselves false hope. They can't win on the road and have numerous problems in both their rotation and lineup. Headed to Tampa Bay and Boston (while we're playing the Mariners and A's at home) next week spells doom for them.

pudge
07-22-2010, 04:42 PM
Where are people like this when Bobby is nailing down 17 straight saves giving up only 1 run total in June?
They seem to surface only when things go south.
Bobby will be back and in September,guys like this will disapear again,thankfully.

I would not be so sure about that. That is not the trend of closers who start to lose their stuff. How many times have we seen this happen? It's a tale as old as time. This goes back to our discussion on the "save" stat being so harmful. I would have removed Bobby from these situations long ago, it was clear when this year started he was not closer material. I just hope the last two nightmares have changed the trend for good for this season.

oeo
07-22-2010, 05:01 PM
I would not be so sure about that. That is not the trend of closers who start to lose their stuff. How many times have we seen this happen? It's a tale as old as time. This goes back to our discussion on the "save" stat being so harmful. I would have removed Bobby from these situations long ago, it was clear when this year started he was not closer material. I just hope the last two nightmares have changed the trend for good for this season.

He got his stuff back last month and has suddenly lost it again after being out with the family matter. Jenks said last time they fixed a small mechanical flaw that got him back on track. Maybe he's fallen back into that flaw or a similar one?

I didn't want the Sox to bring Bobby back this year. I thought he was done and at the least, not worth the money (still isn't, but what's done is done). He showed last month that his stuff is in fact still there. They need to figure out what's wrong and get it fixed, not overreact.

hawkjt
07-22-2010, 05:07 PM
He got his stuff back last month and has suddenly lost it again after being out with the family matter. Jenks said last time they fixed a small mechanical flaw that got him back on track. Maybe he's fallen back into that flaw or a similar one?

I didn't want the Sox to bring Bobby back this year. I thought he was done and at the least, not worth the money (still isn't, but what's done is done). He showed last month that his stuff is in fact still there. They need to figure out what's wrong and get it fixed, not overreact.


Agree. In June Bobby had everything working. 97mph,and breaking ball/slider. Location...the whole 9 yards.
Unless he is hurt, I suspect it is again mechanical.

JB98
07-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Jenks career stats in July:

1-6, 6.36 ERA. His K/BB ratio and WHIP are worse in July than any other month by a wide margin.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=jenksbo01&year=Career&t=p

We have this same discussion at this time of the season every year, no?

Craig Grebeck
07-22-2010, 05:44 PM
Jenks career stats in July:

1-6, 6.36 ERA. His K/BB ratio and WHIP are worse in July than any other month by a wide margin.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=jenksbo01&year=Career&t=p

We have this same discussion at this time of the season every year, no?
Thankfully, this will be the final July we talk about Bobby Jenks.

Crestani
07-22-2010, 05:57 PM
Thankfully, this will be the final July we talk about Bobby Jenks.


Hopefully..:rip:

JB98
07-22-2010, 06:09 PM
Thankfully, this will be the final July we talk about Bobby Jenks.

And then we'll have some other closer who will blow a handful of games throughout the year and cause epic meltdowns at WSI.

That's baseball.

Craig Grebeck
07-22-2010, 07:13 PM
And then we'll have some other closer who will blow a handful of games throughout the year and cause epic meltdowns at WSI.

That's baseball.
Well, let's hope he's not drastically overpaid.

SOXSINCE'70
07-22-2010, 07:53 PM
IMO, the man is JJ Putz, who WANTS to be a closer and has had past success with the Mariners.
Please dear God, can Bobby go on the 15 day DL?? My nerves are non existent at this point.
I need a break from what occurred on Sunday and Wednesday.

SOXSINCE'70
07-22-2010, 07:56 PM
Unless he is hurt, I suspect it is again mechanical.

Coop'll fix him?? :scratch::scratch:

captain54
07-22-2010, 08:06 PM
And then we'll have some other closer who will blow a handful of games throughout the year and cause epic meltdowns at WSI.

That's baseball.

the Sox don't have the luxury of trotting a guy out there who has barely been able to get anyone out and has blown two games in less than a week. theres a reason for the meltdown.

Bobby replaced someone in 05, now maybe its time to pass the torch

thats baseball

Ranger
07-22-2010, 08:12 PM
I don't like this but it's the only way to solve the Jenks diliemma. If anything, he should just suck it up and perform better. There's seriously a mental barrier prohibiting him from competing the way we all know he's capable of. He isn't locating his pitches and isn't appropriating them in the correct fashion. What was with all those hanging fastballs tonight? Come on.


You'll think, "Well, Thornton or Putz make very good closers on any team" but remember that you're co-opting them from their positions as 7th and 8th inning set-up men. Their presence in those positions are intregal to the success of the White Sox.

Except for the "hanging fastballs" part :wink:, this is a pretty good post. Removing Putz or Thornton from their roles could create a similar problem, just in an earlier inning. It's something to consider.

At some point, Jenks will get an opportunity again to have the 9th, and he should. A guy that just had the month of June that he had, obviously still has it somewhere and they'll have to help him find it because they're probably going to need him. He's going to have to throw his breaking pitches for strikes...it's that simple.

Ranger
07-22-2010, 08:19 PM
the Sox don't have the luxury of trotting a guy out there who has barely been able to get anyone out and has blown two games in less than a week. theres a reason for the meltdown.

Bobby replaced someone in 05, now maybe its time to pass the torch

thats baseball

Yeah, the reason is probably that "it happens". Very few teams are fortunate enough to have closers that don't go through this at some point during the season. It even happens to good teams.

I doubt Bobby's finished. The list of players that have been deemed "finished" at some point by fans is a mile long. And most of them are still playing and playing well (PK, Rios, Thome, just to name a few familiar guys).

vinny
07-22-2010, 08:23 PM
What's his FIP?
What is this? ****ups per inning pitched?

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2010, 08:26 PM
Yeah, the reason is probably that "it happens". Very few teams are fortunate enough to have closers that don't go through this at some point during the season. It even happens to good teams.

I doubt Bobby's finished. The list of players that have been deemed "finished" at some point by fans is a mile long. And most of them are still playing and playing well (PK, Rios, Thome, just to name a few familiar guys).

I hope he's not finished.

But the list of players that have been deemed "finished" who came back is smaller than the list of players who were just assumed to just be going through a slump, but really truly were done. This is especially true of relief pitchers.

What has happened to other pitchers has no bearing on Jenks.

However, fans of just about every team have seen closers melt down and never recover.

JB98
07-22-2010, 08:34 PM
the Sox don't have the luxury of trotting a guy out there who has barely been able to get anyone out and has blown two games in less than a week. theres a reason for the meltdown.

Bobby replaced someone in 05, now maybe its time to pass the torch

thats baseball

No, there isn't.

I had this team dead and buried in May and so did you. So did most people. Now, they have a two-game lead in the division. It's all gravy from here. We should be enjoying the fact that meaningful games are being played in the second half of the season. I never anticipated that would be the case.

Maybe it is time to pass the torch. Ozzie has already said that he's going closer-by-committee. So why the meltdown? The manager is seeing the same thing as everyone else. Contrary to popular belief here, Guillen is neither blind nor stupid. He is stubborn, but he's not stupid.

If Jenks gets his stuff back, he'll be back in the closer's role. If he doesn't, Putz or Thornton will close and Jenks will be gone at the end of the season. I don't see why there is panic in the streets. From my perspective, the situation is under control.

The people who melt down here are just embarrassing this site. Get a hold of yourselves for your own good and for the good of others.

captain54
07-22-2010, 11:02 PM
At some point, Jenks will get an opportunity again to have the 9th, and he should. A guy that just had the month of June that he had, obviously still has it somewhere and they'll have to help him find it because they're probably going to need him. He's going to have to throw his breaking pitches for strikes...it's that simple.

that's pretty frikkin ridiculous

maybe the Sox should bring back Bobby Thigpen because he once had good stuff and broke the saves record, or bring back Shingo because he once held the record with 24 scoreless innings.

speaking of Shingo, I'll add the name of Billy Koch to the list of names that
got chance after chance despite the fans protests, but ended up not being able to get the job done on a consistent basis when all was said and done.

captain54
07-22-2010, 11:08 PM
The people who melt down here are just embarrassing this site. Get a hold of yourselves for your own good and for the good of others.

that's what happens when fans are passionate and watch wins evaporate into loses before their very eyes. when you pull for a team and get jacked up watching games, going to games and seeing the team do well, you get upset when victory slips away. its been happening to passionate
fans since sports was invented.

you should check out some of the other boards in other cities in other sports. this one seems tame compared to them.

hawkjt
07-23-2010, 07:17 AM
that's pretty frikkin ridiculous

maybe the Sox should bring back Bobby Thigpen because he once had good stuff and broke the saves record, or bring back Shingo because he once held the record with 24 scoreless innings.

speaking of Shingo, I'll add the name of Billy Koch to the list of names that
got chance after chance despite the fans protests, but ended up not being able to get the job done on a consistent basis when all was said and done.


Yes, bringing back Thigpen from a 20 year absence is no more ridiculous than bringing back a guy who had 17 straight saves going into a game 5 days ago:whiner:

If Paulie strikes out 3 times tonite...DFA him,also....before his 4th at bat,and bring back Harold Baines.:scratch:

captain54
07-23-2010, 10:04 AM
Yes, bringing back Thigpen from a 20 year absence is no more ridiculous than bringing back a guy who had 17 straight saves going into a game 5 days ago:whiner:

If Paulie strikes out 3 times tonite...DFA him,also....before his 4th at bat,and bring back Harold Baines.:scratch:

that was to prove a point, not to be taken literally. read the posts a little more carefully next time

happydude
07-23-2010, 11:26 AM
that's what happens when fans are passionate and watch wins evaporate into loses before their very eyes. when you pull for a team and get jacked up watching games, going to games and seeing the team do well, you get upset when victory slips away. its been happening to passionate
fans since sports was invented.

you should check out some of the other boards in other cities in other sports. this one seems tame compared to them.

Lol. This is undeniable. Overreaction is never desirable but that which tends to occur here is certainly less virulent than some I've seen; we're the voice of gentlemanly reason in comparison.

WizardsofOzzie
07-23-2010, 12:36 PM
What is this? ****ups per inning pitched?

FIP (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-two) is Fielder Independent Pitching on an ERA scale. Suprisingly Bobby's FIP is 2.77 this year, compared to his 5.09 ERA

Ranger
07-23-2010, 01:03 PM
that's pretty frikkin ridiculous

maybe the Sox should bring back Bobby Thigpen because he once had good stuff and broke the saves record, or bring back Shingo because he once held the record with 24 scoreless innings.

speaking of Shingo, I'll add the name of Billy Koch to the list of names that
got chance after chance despite the fans protests, but ended up not being able to get the job done on a consistent basis when all was said and done.

I would respond to this stupid post (and yes, captian, it's stupid) but I'll let this guy do it:

Yes, bringing back Thigpen from a 20 year absence is no more ridiculous than bringing back a guy who had 17 straight saves going into a game 5 days ago:whiner:

If Paulie strikes out 3 times tonite...DFA him,also....before his 4th at bat,and bring back Harold Baines.:scratch:

captain54
07-23-2010, 01:57 PM
I would respond to this stupid post (and yes, captian, it's stupid) but I'll let this guy do it:

be as condescending as you'd like, Ranger...the truth of the matter is, the fans aren't always wrong when it comes to wanting a players head.

I never said bring back Shingo or Thigpen.. literally.... the point, (which you and the other genius entirely missed) is that the fans have put up with Jenk's inconsistencies now for YEARS... if we're gonna bank on Jenks
coming bank from a short string of success, your logic suggests we continue to trot out players solely on past success...

oeo
07-23-2010, 02:06 PM
Except for the "hanging fastballs" part :wink:, this is a pretty good post. Removing Putz or Thornton from their roles could create a similar problem, just in an earlier inning. It's something to consider.

This is the biggest key. When you start shifting roles, you create bigger problems. You move Putz to closer, Santos into his role, who takes on Santos' role? Would Bobby be able to do it after being a closer for so many years? Then you need to try Pena, who can't get over hanging sliders late in games, but even if he was successful, who takes over his long relief role? Thornton would probably have to take on an even bigger role, along with Santos. Overworking them isn't going to help in September.

It all just becomes a mess and probably ends up hurting the pen as a whole. We need to hope Bobby finds his problem and gets it fixed.

Ranger
07-23-2010, 03:15 PM
be as condescending as you'd like, Ranger...the truth of the matter is, the fans aren't always wrong when it comes to wanting a players head.

I never said bring back Shingo or Thigpen.. literally.... the point, (which you and the other genius entirely missed) is that the fans have put up with Jenk's inconsistencies now for YEARS... if we're gonna bank on Jenks
coming bank from a short string of success, your logic suggests we continue to trot out players solely on past success...

I'm not being condescending, I'm just telling you that your post was stupid. No, fans aren't always wrong when it comes to wanting a player's head, but they're wrong a lot. A lot more than teams are. That's because fans react emotionally, and many times overreact. If teams got rid of players as much as fans wanted them to get rid of players, no team would ever be able to field a 25-man roster.

There are a few reasons that teams are patient with veteran players, and one of them is because track record suggests recovery. And with Jenks, we're not talking about a guy that was good a couple of years ago and hasn't been since. He was excellent just last month.

My logic is not that you "trot out players solely on past success". That's not what I said. What I said was that he still has stuff, he still has the same velocity on the fastball he's had for the last 4 years, he's just not throwing offspeed stuff for strikes. He still has it, he just needs to find it again. It's more likely that he's still capable of being a good closer than it is that he's totally lost his ability from one month to the next.

Edit: Oh and maybe we geniuses missed your point because you haven't done a good job in making whatever point it is you're trying to make.

LoveYourSuit
07-23-2010, 03:26 PM
Put me on record as a guy who feels that if the Sox are going to do something here to win the Division, Jenks has to get out of this funk. He was hot during our crazy run that got us back to first place.

You live or die by him.

It's too late to re-shuffle the deck here and mess up what's already working good with Putz and Thornton in the 7th and 8th inning.

And Santos is not the answer, despite his ERA, his WHIP is awful.

And no, don't go trade away the few bullets we have in prospects to for another reliever (see the mistake which was Tony Pena).

tony1972
07-23-2010, 03:32 PM
I'm not being condescending, I'm just telling you that your post was stupid. No, fans aren't always wrong when it comes to wanting a player's head, but they're wrong a lot. A lot more than teams are. That's because fans react emotionally, and many times overreact. If teams got rid of players as much as fans wanted them to get rid of players, no team would ever be able to field a 25-man roster.

There are a few reasons that teams are patient with veteran players, and one of them is because track record suggests recovery. And with Jenks, we're not talking about a guy that was good a couple of years ago and hasn't been since. He was excellent just last month.

My logic is not that you "trot out players solely on past success". That's not what I said. What I said was that he still has stuff, he still has the same velocity on the fastball he's had for the last 4 years, he's just not throwing offspeed stuff for strikes. He still has it, he just needs to find it again. It's more likely that he's still capable of being a good closer than it is that he's totally lost his ability from one month to the next.

Edit: Oh and maybe we geniuses missed your point because you haven't done a good job in making whatever point it is you're trying to make.

I do agree with most of what you say..Jenks has proven himself and will probably bounce back to what he was...

The thing is..I dont think the leash can be that long with a 2 GAME LEAD..if the Sox were up 10 games or down 10 games..you can wait and say.."oh..this is temporary..Jenks will bounce back"..

it's only that you cannot give games away when 3 teams are neck and neck and neck. Really..if the season ends and we end up in 2nd 2 or 3 games behind the Twins or Tigers...we will regret this experiment with waiting for Jenks to bounce back.....

Right now winning EVERY GAME is the #1 goal for the Sox. And if a player has cost a team 2 victories in ONE WEEK...you simply have to look at other options for the sake of the team.

I'd hate to see this at the end of the season

Minnesota Twins: AL Central Champs

Chicago White Sox: 2nd place..but we didn't hurt Jenks feelings and gave him a chance to bounce back...and you can't give up on players..so it's ok we missed the Division Title by 2 games Champs...

BringHomeDaBacon
07-23-2010, 03:59 PM
FIP (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-two) is Fielder Independent Pitching on an ERA scale. Suprisingly Bobby's FIP is 2.77 this year, compared to his 5.09 ERA

Additionally, his BABIP is at .402 compared to career .308.

kufram
07-23-2010, 04:50 PM
Put me on record as a guy who feels that if the Sox are going to do something here to win the Division, Jenks has to get out of this funk. He was hot during our crazy run that got us back to first place.

You live or die by him.

It's too late to re-shuffle the deck here and mess up what's already working good with Putz and Thornton in the 7th and 8th inning.

And Santos is not the answer, despite his ERA, his WHIP is awful.

And no, don't go trade away the few bullets we have in prospects to for another reliever (see the mistake which was Tony Pena).


Agree. Love him, hate him, love him, hate him is too much of a roller coaster ride. He's made me nervous all year, but he's the guy we have. Didn't he blow a save in the post season in '05? might even have been the WS.

Changing the entire structure of a good bullpen will more likely lose more games than Jenks has cost us. People need to remember that other teams lose games they should win also. Didn't the Indians just beat both of our main competitors?

I hate to say it but I think the most effective thing to help Bobby right now would be to lose the beard. I thought about putting that in teal, but I just might be serious!

captain54
07-23-2010, 05:27 PM
He still has it, he just needs to find it again. It's more likely that he's still capable of being a good closer than it is that he's totally lost his ability from one month to the next..

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense.....if he needs to find it again, then that means presently, with two months left in the season, he doesn't have it. He's either capable RIGHT NOW of being the closer or he's not, it can't be both ways. Ozzie had the same attitude as you this
last week and kept his fingers crossed that Bobby would magically find his stuff and it cost us two games.

There's always the possibility, (although you would never admit it because it would disprove your theory) that Jenks has lost his stuff for the rest of the year. That's not too far fetched.

I'm all for re-shuffling the pen without Jenks at this point. I officially consider Jenks dead weight along with Linebrink. Make Putz the closer and find someone to fill Putz's role. My heart can't take another 9th inning of seeing a sweaty bearded Jenks huffing and puffing after giving up a leadoff walk or leadoff hit.



Edit: Oh and maybe we geniuses missed your point because you haven't done a good job in making whatever point it is you're trying to make.

I don't think so .... more like selective reading on your part.

JB98
07-23-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense.....if he needs to find it again, then that means presently, with two months left in the season, he doesn't have it. He's either capable RIGHT NOW of being the closer or he's not, it can't be both ways. Ozzie had the same attitude as you this
last week and kept his fingers crossed that Bobby would magically find his stuff and it cost us two games.

There's always the possibility, (although you would never admit it because it would disprove your theory) that Jenks has lost his stuff for the rest of the year. That's not too far fetched.

I'm all for re-shuffling the pen without Jenks at this point. I officially consider Jenks dead weight along with Linebrink. Make Putz the closer and find someone to fill Putz's role. My heart can't take another 9th inning of seeing a sweaty bearded Jenks huffing and puffing after giving up a leadoff walk or leadoff hit.



I don't think so .... more like selective reading on your part.

You just lost all credibility.

A pitcher who has 20 saves is not "dead weight."

On 10 occasions this season, Bobby Jenks has been summoned to protect a one-run lead in the final inning of a game. He has been successful 9 out of 10 times.

Let's see Linebrink do that. Totally unfair and foolish of you to group Jenks in with Linebrink.

DonnieDarko
07-23-2010, 06:27 PM
I can see why we're not going with Jenks for sure now, but I don't think that he shouldn't get another chance to regain his Closer role.

captain54
07-23-2010, 07:10 PM
A pitcher who has 20 saves is not "dead weight."

.

there was some mention in another thread recently about how the "saves" stat is misleading. I suggest you take a look at it.

here's some stats for you to consider:

-there are 10 closers in the AL with 20 saves or more...Jenks has BY FAR the highest ERA of any closer in that group with a 5.09. Jenks also leads that group in WHIP.

-Jenks in the only closer in that group that has given up more hits than innings pitched, 40 hits in 35 innings pitched. In contrast Mariano Riviera, has given up 17 hits in 36 innings pitched

-in about the same amount of innings pitched, Jenks has given up more than 3 times the amount of runs than Riviera, and almost 3 times as many walks

I wouldn't be so quick in accusing other people of losing credibility

JB98
07-23-2010, 07:12 PM
there was some mention in another recently on this board about how the "saves" stat is misleading. I suggest to take a look at it.

here's some stats for you to consider:

-there are 10 closers in the AL with 20 saves or more...Jenks has BY FAR the highest ERA of any closer in that group with a 5.09. Jenks also leads that group in WHIP.

-Jenks in the only closer in that group that has given up more hits than innings pitched, 40 hits in 35 innings pitched. In contrast Mariano Riviera, has given up 17 hits in 36 innings pitched

-in about the same amount of innings pitched, Jenks has given up more than 3 times the amount of runs than Riviera, and almost 3 times as many walks

I wouldn't be so quick in accusing other people of losing credibility

How many are named Scott Linebrink?

I noticed you conveniently ignored my comment about Jenks converting 9 of 10 when handed a one-run lead to protect.

captain54
07-23-2010, 07:19 PM
How many are named Scott Linebrink?

I noticed you conveniently ignored by comment about Jenks converting 9 of 10 when handed a one-run lead to protect.

Scott Linebrink = grossly overpaid
Bobby Jenks = grossly overpaid

there ya go...same category

out of those 9, I would proably say at least half were situations where Jenks loaded the bases or put RISP and the Sox just barely came out of it alive.

JB98
07-23-2010, 07:31 PM
Scott Linebrink = grossly overpaid
Bobby Jenks = grossly overpaid

there ya go...same category

out of those 9, I would proably say at least half were situations where Jenks loaded the bases or put RISP and the Sox just barely came out of it alive.

You just changed the argument. I've been arguing about performance. Now, you want to argue about salary, which is a different matter entirely.

I'm sorry Bobby Jenks makes you soil your jammies. I'm sorry he makes your little heart go pitter patter in the ninth inning. I'm sorry if you don't have the stomach for a lot of close games in a tight pennant race. The bottom line is the Sox are a better team when Jenks is in the closer's role. Hopefully, he gets it together and gets his job back shortly.

You can't trot out all the Mariano Rivera statistics you want. No one here would be fool enough to argue that Jenks is as good as Rivera. Jenks is not an All-Star closer. But he is not dead weight either. Of the 14 closers in the league, he's in the middle of the pack.

He's not going to be released. It's extremely unlikely he'll be dealt. It's time to come back to reality. The Sox need Jenks to regain the form he showed in June. The stuff is still there. He's gotta find it for the Sox to win. That's the bottom line.

captain54
07-23-2010, 08:19 PM
The Sox need Jenks to regain the form he showed in June. The stuff is still there. He's gotta find it for the Sox to win. That's the bottom line.

I desperately need to sleep with Catherine Zeta Jones tonite. I just have to. No matter how hard I wish for it, unfortunately, the chances of it happening are extremely low.

Good luck watching Ozzie trot your boy out there for the next couple months on a wing and a prayer, just hoping that he has his mojo back, and just hoping he doesn't single handedly kill any chance for the postseason.

tony1972
07-23-2010, 10:37 PM
I desperately need to sleep with Catherine Zeta Jones tonite. I just have to. No matter how hard I wish for it, unfortunately, the chances of it happening are extremely low.

Good luck watching Ozzie trot your boy out there for the next couple months on a wing and a prayer, just hoping that he has his mojo back, and just hoping he doesn't single handedly kill any chance for the postseason.

Some of this was unnecessary and Jenks has done a lot for the team..

But if Ozzie gives another guy a chance and it fails and he goes back to Jenks..Sox fans will be more forgiving..than if he keeps going to Jenks..Jenks blows a few more games and we miss the postseason by 1 or 2 wins. People will remember the games Jenks blew and Sox fans will not forget that at all...

Ranger
07-23-2010, 10:38 PM
First, I refuse to debate any longer with captain's moving goalposts and ridiculous arguments. The rest of you can drive yourselves crazy trying to reason with him, but I would advise against it. Trust me, I've made the mistake before.

Put me on record as a guy who feels that if the Sox are going to do something here to win the Division, Jenks has to get out of this funk. He was hot during our crazy run that got us back to first place.

You live or die by him.

It's too late to re-shuffle the deck here and mess up what's already working good with Putz and Thornton in the 7th and 8th inning.

And Santos is not the answer, despite his ERA, his WHIP is awful.

And no, don't go trade away the few bullets we have in prospects to for another reliever (see the mistake which was Tony Pena).

This is exactly the problem: re-arranging the bullpen may not make the situation any better. Unless they are able to find someone better than Jenks, they're simply going to need him to be effective and to pitch around mistakes.

I do agree with most of what you say..Jenks has proven himself and will probably bounce back to what he was...

The thing is..I dont think the leash can be that long with a 2 GAME LEAD..if the Sox were up 10 games or down 10 games..you can wait and say.."oh..this is temporary..Jenks will bounce back"..

it's only that you cannot give games away when 3 teams are neck and neck and neck. Really..if the season ends and we end up in 2nd 2 or 3 games behind the Twins or Tigers...we will regret this experiment with waiting for Jenks to bounce back.....

Right now winning EVERY GAME is the #1 goal for the Sox. And if a player has cost a team 2 victories in ONE WEEK...you simply have to look at other options for the sake of the team.

I'd hate to see this at the end of the season

Minnesota Twins: AL Central Champs

Chicago White Sox: 2nd place..but we didn't hurt Jenks feelings and gave him a chance to bounce back...and you can't give up on players..so it's ok we missed the Division Title by 2 games Champs...

It has nothing to do with hurting Jenks' feelings. The reason they would give him another chance (and likely multiple chances) is that he's probably their best bet in the end. If you take him out of the 9th, he's gonna have to adjust to pitching in the 7th or 8th, which is something he has never done well.

I can tell you with strong confidence that just about every other team would treat him the exact same way, given the same personnel. He'll get the chance because he's already proven this year that he can do the job and do it well. It has nothing to do with trying not to make him feel bad about himself.

And it isn't even that he lost the games for them. The issue is how he's looked and the fact that he's been wild. Closers will typically not get the hook just because they blow a couple of save chances in one week. It does happen from time to time that these guys fail and it sometimes happens in bunches.

At the end of the year, the likelihood is that they are going to need Jenks to be good if they're going to win. That means he's gonna need the chance to recover.

tony1972
07-23-2010, 10:44 PM
First, I refuse to debate any longer with captain's moving goalposts and ridiculous arguments. The rest of you can drive yourselves crazy trying to reason with him, but I would advise against it. Trust me, I've made the mistake before.



This is exactly the problem: re-arranging the bullpen may not make the situation any better. Unless they are able to find someone better than Jenks, they're simply going to need him to be effective and to pitch around mistakes.



It has nothing to do with hurting Jenks' feelings. The reason they would give him another chance (and likely multiple chances) is that he's probably their best bet in the end. If you take him out of the 9th, he's gonna have to adjust to pitching in the 7th or 8th, which is something he has never done well.

I can tell you with strong confidence that just about every other team would treat him the exact same way, given the same personnel. He'll get the chance because he's already proven this year that he can do the job and do it well. It has nothing to do with trying not to make him feel bad about himself.

And it isn't even that he lost the games for them. The issue is how he's looked and the fact that he's been wild. Closers will typically not get the hook just because they blow a couple of save chances in one week. It does happen from time to time that these guys fail and it sometimes happens in bunches.

At the end of the year, the likelihood is that they are going to need Jenks to be good if they're going to win. That means he's gonna need the chance to recover.

I agree..but my fear is what if Jenks is not good again? Do you not at least try another alternative?:scratch: What if in waiting for Jenks to come back..we lose an extra 5 games that we should have won?

Don't winning teams sometimes make adjustments when something is not working and aren't winning teams flexible? I am torn 50 / 50. I am not with the group that wants Jenks traded...but I also want my team to win and I don't see what is so terrible if games are being lost that should be won.....to try an alternative.

We had 3 closers in 2005..should we have just stayed with Shingo hoping (crossing fingers) that he would return to form? Do you think we would have made the postseason that year?

Overreacting and emotions are bad (I agree with you on this Ranger and have felt for you in some of the post game shows)..but I also think stubbornness and an unwillingness to change when change may be needed is also just as bad.

Ranger
07-23-2010, 10:54 PM
I agree..but my fear is what if Jenks is not good again? Do you not at least try another alternative?:scratch: What if in waiting for Jenks to come back..we lose an extra 5 games that we should have won?

Don't winning teams sometimes make adjustments when something is not working and aren't winning teams flexible? I am torn 50 / 50. I am not with the group that wants Jenks traded...but I also want my team to win and I don't see what is so terrible if games are being lost that should be won.....to try an alternative.

We had 3 closers in 2005..should we have just stayed with Shingo hoping (crossing fingers) that he would return to form? Do you think we would have made the postseason that year?

Overreacting and emotions are bad (I agree with you on this Ranger and have felt for you in some of the post game shows)..but I also think stubbornness and an unwillingness to change when change may be needed is also just as bad.

There's a difference between 2005 and now. First, Shingo did not have the track record then that Jenks does now. And second, Hermanson got hurt or they never would've tried Jenks. If Hermanson wouldn't have been injured, he probably would've been the closer throughout the year.

Again, teams do this because of history, and for Jenks, history of effectiveness is only a couple of weeks ago. It's not like he was a good closer 6 years ago, and now they're trying to revive a career. He was outstanding just last month. So much so, that MLB recognized him as the best reliever in the game for the month of June.

The reason teams are patient is summed up in the LaRussa philosophy that he'd rather lost a game now if it means it might win him 5 later in the season. IF they stick with Jenks and get him back on track, they make their bullpen better and it probably wins them many more games than it loses. On the other hand, if they start re-shuffling, they may never find a better formula.

tony1972
07-23-2010, 11:28 PM
There's a difference between 2005 and now. First, Shingo did not have the track record then that Jenks does now. And second, Hermanson got hurt or they never would've tried Jenks. If Hermanson wouldn't have been injured, he probably would've been the closer throughout the year.

Again, teams do this because of history, and for Jenks, history of effectiveness is only a couple of weeks ago. It's not like he was a good closer 6 years ago, and now they're trying to revive a career. He was outstanding just last month. So much so, that MLB recognized him as the best reliever in the game for the month of June.

The reason teams are patient is summed up in the LaRussa philosophy that he'd rather lost a game now if it means it might win him 5 later in the season. IF they stick with Jenks and get him back on track, they make their bullpen better and it probably wins them many more games than it loses. On the other hand, if they start re-shuffling, they may never find a better formula.

Some of these points make good sense. Esp. the latter which I didn't consider.

If Jenks did continue to struggle though..would you be comfortable with Ozzie looking at other alternatives? I think that's what I (and some other posters) are saying..

and I'd rather take the 1 or 2 wins now..then the 5 wins maybe in 2011 and 2012..simply b/c we are in a pennant race...

captain54
07-23-2010, 11:48 PM
First, I refuse to debate any longer with captain's moving goalposts and ridiculous arguments. The rest of you can drive yourselves crazy trying to reason with him, but I would advise against it. Trust me, I've made the mistake before.


Ranger,I think it just bothers you when people have strong opinions and defend those opinions

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2010, 12:10 AM
[/B]

Lol. This is undeniable. Overreaction is never desirable but that which tends to occur here is certainly less virulent than some I've seen; we're the voice of gentlemanly reason in comparison.There's a reason for that.

I desperately need to sleep with Catherine Zeta Jones tonite. I just have to. No matter how hard I wish for it, unfortunately, the chances of it happening are extremely low.

Good luck watching Ozzie trot your boy out there for the next couple months on a wing and a prayer, just hoping that he has his mojo back, and just hoping he doesn't single handedly kill any chance for the postseason.Your chances of scoring with Zeta-Jones are less than zero. The chances of Bobby bouncing back are better than 50-50. Bad analogy.

LoveYourSuit
07-24-2010, 12:15 AM
There's a reason for that.

Your chances of scoring with Zeta-Jones are less than zero. The chances of Bobby bouncing back are better than 50-50. Bad analogy.


Well, Zeta Jones did show interest in Michael Douglas.

So maybe we all have about a 1% chance. There is hope.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2010, 12:18 AM
Well, Zeta Jones did show interest in Michael Douglas.

So maybe we all have about a 1% chance. There is hope.I guess I should just speak for myself. I don't have Michael Douglas's money. MY chances are less than zero.

captain54
07-24-2010, 12:21 AM
Your chances of scoring with Zeta-Jones are less than zero. The chances of Bobby bouncing back are better than 50-50. Bad analogy.

no it's not...you're reading your own meaning in the analogy.

I can wish and hope to score with Zeta-Jones...either way its not gonna happen

the fans can wish and hope for Jenks to get guys out....either way, there are no guarantees its gonna happen, regardless of whether he had a good June.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2010, 12:26 AM
no it's not...you're reading your own meaning in the analogy.

I can wish and hope to score with Zeta-Jones...either way its not gonna happen

the fans can wish and hope for Jenks to get guys out....either way, there are no guarantees its gonna happen, regardless of whether he had a good June.
"No guarantees" and "not gonna happen" are very different animals. Give it up.

1989
07-24-2010, 12:27 AM
Ozzie should use his best reliever in the highest leverage situation. Right now, that pitcher is Putz. If that situation happens to be the 9th inning then use him. Otherwise keep sending him out in the 8th and use whoever is the next best reliever to close out the game.

LoveYourSuit
07-24-2010, 12:31 AM
Ozzie should use his best reliever in the highest leverage situation. Right now, that pitcher is Putz. If that situation happens to be the 9th inning then use him. Otherwise keep sending him out in the 8th and use whoever is the next best reliever to close out the game.


Players will be the first to tell you they prefer set roles. There is mental preparation for these guys.

Also, not too many teams have won a WS (I think) without having set roles defined in the bullpen.

doublem23
07-24-2010, 12:37 AM
no it's not...you're reading your own meaning in the analogy.

I can wish and hope to score with Zeta-Jones...either way its not gonna happen

the fans can wish and hope for Jenks to get guys out....either way, there are no guarantees its gonna happen, regardless of whether he had a good June.

This is, at best, a poor argument.

captain54
07-24-2010, 01:19 AM
This is, at best, a poor argument.

the analogy I used made sense to me....

I can wish and hope to have a hot chick...that doesn't mean its gonna happen

the fans can wish and hope Jenks gets his stuff back...that doesn't mean its gonna happen.

that's all I was trying to say.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2010, 02:00 AM
the analogy I used made sense to me....

I can wish and hope to have a hot chick...that doesn't mean its gonna happen

the fans can wish and hope Jenks gets his stuff back...that doesn't mean its gonna happen.

that's all I was trying to say.The analogy still sucks. One is far, far more likely to happen than the other. I said it before, and I'll say it again. Let it go. Drop it.

Konerkoholic
07-24-2010, 02:42 AM
the analogy I used made sense to me....

I can wish and hope to have a hot chick...that doesn't mean its gonna happen

the fans can wish and hope Jenks gets his stuff back...that doesn't mean its gonna happen.

that's all I was trying to say.

Lots of things you say make sense to you (though probably not all.) Chances are, you're still wrong.

captain54
07-24-2010, 10:32 AM
Lots of things you say make sense to you (though probably not all.) Chances are, you're still wrong.

thanks for that valuable input

voodoochile
07-26-2010, 12:08 PM
Or not...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0726-white-sox-brite--20100725,0,7270861.story

GoSox2K3
08-05-2010, 03:12 PM
Are we going back to closer by committee now?

I'm not one of the "Jenks is fat" and "release him now" crowd, but wow. That's 3 blown saves since the All-Star break. Worse yet, 2 of them were vs. division rivals and were games where we had a 3 run lead.

I don't know what the answer is. But what I do believe is that if the Sox are going to win the division, we're going to need Jenks to be reliable again. If we lose today, that's a 4 game swing in the standings because of his blown saves in the last 2 1/2 weeks. I'm not saying everything else about the team has been perfect, but so far Bobby is showing that whether he's on or off is the difference maker in this race.

ewokpelts
08-05-2010, 03:21 PM
way to go bobby. great way to "prove yourself".

WhiteSox5187
08-05-2010, 03:32 PM
Ozzie has been beyond patient with this guy, I didn't mind giving him another chance after the Minnesota debacle, I didn't mind that he got his job back after the Seattle nightmare (there was a long gap between saves there) but after today, I'm willing to pull the plug. He shouldn't close out games any more for the White Sox and after this year he shouldn't be on the team.

Lip Man 1
08-05-2010, 03:37 PM
For what it may be worth to you.

When I was in Chicago I spoke with members of the front office (they were higher up in the chain of command...).

Regarding Jenks I was told he will not be with the team next season.

Lip

Tragg
08-05-2010, 03:38 PM
I don't mind Jenks still being the closer. It gets a little dicey though when, like today, both Thornton and Putz used before him with no one of comparable ability available to bail him out. Fortunately, Santos continues to make great progress and he's a pretty good pitcher behind Jenks.

asindc
08-05-2010, 03:40 PM
For what it may be worth to you.

When I was in Chicago I spoke with members of the front office (they were higher up in the chain of command...).

Regarding Jenks I was told he will not be with the team next season.

Lip

Lip,

I think that bit a news qualifies as "Dog Bites Man" at this point.:smile:

hawkjt
08-05-2010, 03:45 PM
I watched Bobby today very closely. He is throwing much better than that bad week right after the All Star break. He was nasty today,cept for lack of command of the breaking ball. If Ramon or the dugout call for hard stuff only, he gets out of that clean.
Bobby was filthy today with his hard stuff.
And btw, today Thornton was bad.
Yesterday,JJ was bad.

It happens. These guys are not robots.

TDog
08-05-2010, 03:50 PM
Are we going back to closer by committee now?
...

Today was an example of closer by committee.

The eighth inning after Thornton walked the first two hitters required a closer to hold a one-run lead. That wasn't just a matter of the setup man facing the tying run when he comes in for the eighth, that was a matter Putz coming in with one out the tying run at second and the go-ahead run at first. If Peralta gets a hit, Putz (who hasn't been pitching well of late) is charged with the blown save. The Giants would have brought in Brian Wilson for a five-out save. The A's used to do that with Street and have tried to do it with Bailey this year, but Bailey hasn't converted any of those. A lot of teams would bring their closer into that situation, and with lead expanded to three in the by the Sox in the ninth, had Jenks closed out the game, it would have been Putz that should have earned the save, according to a minority opinion during the framing of the save rule.

Thornton didn't pitch well today either in a tighter situation.

Blown saves happen. The Rays had two blown saves in a single extra-inning loss in Baltimore this year, one in the ninth when their closer gave up two runs and one in the walk-off inning that they entered with a lead. The Twins had two blown saves against the Rays in the last two days and still won both games.

The more often you rely on the same people to pitch in the late innings of every game, the more you will see pitchers fail.

Craig Grebeck
08-05-2010, 04:00 PM
Today was an example of closer by committee.

The eighth inning after Thornton walked the first two hitters required a closer to hold a one-run lead. That wasn't just a matter of the setup man facing the tying run when he comes in for the eighth, that was a matter Putz coming in with one out the tying run at second and the go-ahead run at first. If Peralta gets a hit, Putz (who hasn't been pitching well of late) is charged with the blown save. The Giants would have brought in Brian Wilson for a five-out save. The A's used to do that with Street and have tried to do it with Bailey this year, but Bailey hasn't converted any of those. A lot of teams would bring their closer into that situation, and with lead expanded to three in the by the Sox in the ninth, had Jenks closed out the game, it would have been Putz that should have earned the save, according to a minority opinion during the framing of the save rule.

Thornton didn't pitch well today either in a tighter situation.

Blown saves happen. The Rays had two blown saves in a single extra-inning loss in Baltimore this year, one in the ninth when their closer gave up two runs and one in the walk-off inning that they entered with a lead. The Twins had two blown saves against the Rays in the last two days and still won both games.

The more often you rely on the same people to pitch in the late innings of every game, the more you will see pitchers fail.
No it wasn't an example of closer by committee. Those pitchers were used with the express intent of Jenks pitching in the ninth inning.

TDog
08-05-2010, 04:59 PM
No it wasn't an example of closer by committee. Those pitchers were used with the express intent of Jenks pitching in the ninth inning.

Three pitchers were used to close the game. The matchups determine which order they were used in. Thornton came in to face the left-handed heavy top of the Tigers lineup in the seventh and eighth. He got into trouble, and Putz bailed him out. Jenks was the third of the Sox "closers" to pitch, and coming into the game, Jenks has been more successful recently than Putz.

Maybe if the Tigers leave Garcia in the game to face left-handed second baseman Will Rhymes, Ryan Rayburn doesn't pinch hit in the seventh against Thornton and as a right-handed hitter, he doesn't pinch hit for Rhymes in the ninth against Jenks and doesn't get the home run to tie the game. But I wouldn't call Guillen an idiot for seeing putting Rayburn into the game.

It isn't like the Sox are going to bring in Jenks to face Cabrera in the eighth. Closer by committee doesn't mean Jenks never pitches the ninth.

Craig Grebeck
08-05-2010, 05:09 PM
Three pitchers were used to close the game. The matchups determine which order they were used in. Thornton came in to face the left-handed heavy top of the Tigers lineup in the seventh and eighth. He got into trouble, and Putz bailed him out. Jenks was the third of the Sox "closers" to pitch, and coming into the game, Jenks has been more successful recently than Putz.

Maybe if the Tigers leave Garcia in the game to face left-handed second baseman Will Rhymes, Ryan Rayburn doesn't pinch hit in the seventh against Thornton and as a right-handed hitter, he doesn't pinch hit for Rhymes in the ninth against Jenks and doesn't get the home run to tie the game. But I wouldn't call Guillen an idiot for seeing putting Rayburn into the game.

It isn't like the Sox are going to bring in Jenks to face Cabrera in the eighth. Closer by committee doesn't mean Jenks never pitches the ninth.
No. Just no. You're making no sense whatsoever.

TDog
08-05-2010, 06:22 PM
No. Just no. You're making no sense whatsoever.

Jenks is not going to get the call before Thornton in a one-run game with the left handed heart of the batting order coming up in the eighth inning. It's that simple. It's about matchups. In the last game of the last roadtrip, it was Putz in the seventh and Jenks in the eighth and Santos warming in the event of the Sox tying the 6-4 game. If the Sox had put a couple of men on base, Thornton would have gotten loose.

It's about matchups.

Domeshot17
08-05-2010, 06:26 PM
Jenks is not going to get the call before Thornton in a one-run game with the left handed heart of the batting order coming up in the eighth inning. It's that simple. It's about matchups. In the last game of the last roadtrip, it was Putz in the seventh and Jenks in the eighth and Santos warming in the event of the Sox tying the 6-4 game. If the Sox had put a couple of men on base, Thornton would have gotten loose.

It's about matchups.

you are 75% wrong. I mean yes, it is about matchups, but closer by committee would be if Thornton faced that trio in the 9th, not the 8th.

kevingrt
08-05-2010, 06:29 PM
you are 75% wrong. I mean yes, it is about matchups, but closer by committee would be if Thornton faced that trio in the 9th, not the 8th.

I'd say closer to 71.4% correct.

TDog
08-05-2010, 06:36 PM
you are 75% wrong. I mean yes, it is about matchups, but closer by committee would be if Thornton faced that trio in the 9th, not the 8th.

If they came up in the ninth, Thorton would have come in with two outs in the seventh to face them, and he would have come in for the ninth. The hitters Thornton matched up best against didn't bat in the ninth.

Thornton pitched against hitters he was supposed to matchup better against, and left with two on and one out to have Putz, who hasn't been pitching well of late, get the doubleplay. Jenks came in against the hitters he matched up better against and gave up a home run with two on and two out.

Closer by committee does not mean Jenks doesn't close.

slavko
08-05-2010, 06:46 PM
I watched Bobby today very closely. He is throwing much better than that bad week right after the All Star break. He was nasty today,cept for lack of command of the breaking ball. If Ramon or the dugout call for hard stuff only, he gets out of that clean.
Bobby was filthy today with his hard stuff.
And btw, today Thornton was bad.
Yesterday,JJ was bad.

It happens. These guys are not robots.

The breaking ball is Bobby's problem, the one he snapped off hit a batter and the ones he got in the zone hung, like the HR ball. Plus he was back down to mid-90's on the fastball. To Thornton was bad, add Putz. Great if you look at the play-by-play, a 2 pitch DP, but if you saw Alexei turn that one-hop rocket by Peralta you would call Putz lucky. Sergio was the best of the bunch, IMO.

Putz can't get the ball down. Overstriding? Yo, Coop!

JB98
08-05-2010, 06:51 PM
The breaking ball is Bobby's problem, the one he snapped off hit a batter and the ones he got in the zone hung, like the HR ball. Plus he was back down to mid-90's on the fastball. To Thornton was bad, add Putz. Great if you look at the play-by-play, a 2 pitch DP, but if you saw Alexei turn that one-hop rocket by Peralta you would call Putz lucky. Sergio was the best of the bunch, IMO.

Putz can't get the ball down. Overstriding? Yo, Coop!

Ah, there's the answer to my question from earlier. The two pitches that cost Jenks today were both breaking balls. No surprise there. It's been the problem pitch all year.

DonnieDarko
08-05-2010, 08:48 PM
I get the feeling that his job is very...hit or miss, especially since he's not going to get more than 40-50 save opportunities in a year more than likely, no? Small sample size in comparison to other roles on the team, and he's going to blow some of those along the way.

Bobby Jenks is not Mariano Rivera. I don't think we expected him to be. But damn, I'm not going to give up on him until a I see a complete body of work from the season as a whole. That's when I judge whether he's good to be back (unless there's something going on here behind the scenes that I don't know about that is influencing the "people in the front office"), not before then.

This loss sucked, no doubt about it. But I'm not sold on Santos, and I'm certainly not sold on Thornton closing. Jenks is likely to get you at least 30 saves a year; serviceable, if I'm not mistaken? He's also shown that he can get over 40 in a year. You don't just drop those kinds of guys, I would think...then again, closers do burn out a lot, don't they?

FielderJones
08-05-2010, 09:05 PM
This loss sucked, no doubt about it. But I'm not sold on Santos, and I'm certainly not sold on Thornton closing. Jenks is likely to get you at least 30 saves a year; serviceable, if I'm not mistaken? He's also shown that he can get over 40 in a year. You don't just drop those kinds of guys, I would think...then again, closers do burn out a lot, don't they?

Teal? The Sox won today, although you might not get that impression from some at WSI.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-05-2010, 10:37 PM
I get the feeling that his job is very...hit or miss, especially since he's not going to get more than 40-50 save opportunities in a year more than likely, no? Small sample size in comparison to other roles on the team, and he's going to blow some of those along the way.

Bobby Jenks is not Mariano Rivera. I don't think we expected him to be. But damn, I'm not going to give up on him until a I see a complete body of work from the season as a whole. That's when I judge whether he's good to be back (unless there's something going on here behind the scenes that I don't know about that is influencing the "people in the front office"), not before then.

This loss sucked, no doubt about it. But I'm not sold on Santos, and I'm certainly not sold on Thornton closing. Jenks is likely to get you at least 30 saves a year; serviceable, if I'm not mistaken? He's also shown that he can get over 40 in a year. You don't just drop those kinds of guys, I would think...then again, closers do burn out a lot, don't they?

Everything you point out is right, but Jenks has started to look more shaky every year. Unless you have a Mariano Rivera or Trevor Hofman in his prime, closers seem to have a short shelf life. I really wouldn't mind getting rid of Jenks in the offseason and re-sign Putz to close out games. He's shown he can do it in the past, and appears to be back to normal from that injury last year. Santos may be whom the Sox envision as the closer-of-the-future, but I agree with you that he probably isn't ready for that. Thornton won't cut it as a closer.

DonnieDarko
08-06-2010, 08:14 AM
Teal? The Sox won today, although you might not get that impression from some at WSI.

I wasn't sober when I wrote that. :smile: But yeah, the BLOWN SAVE sucked. There.

doublem23
08-06-2010, 08:16 AM
Closer by committee does not mean Jenks doesn't close.

Uh, that's exactly what it means at least 2/3 of the time.

Harry Chappas
08-06-2010, 09:14 AM
Someone called into the Score yesterday and broke down Jenks pitch selection. Apparently, he has greatly reduced the number of curves and is relying heavily on his slider. It seems like the slider is the pitch that is getting hammered. When he's at his best, he gets ahead with fastballs and uses his curve as his wipeout pitch. I'm not sure why he is reluctant to throw the curve as it is arguably his best pitch. Part of it might be his inability to throw it for a strike, but when he's ahead in the count, a lot of his Ks come from guys chasing curves that practically bounce.

slavko
08-06-2010, 09:22 AM
Someone called into the Score yesterday and broke down Jenks pitch selection. Apparently, he has greatly reduced the number of curves and is relying heavily on his slider. It seems like the slider is the pitch that is getting hammered. When he's at his best, he gets ahead with fastballs and uses his curve as his wipeout pitch. I'm not sure why he is reluctant to throw the curve as it is arguably his best pitch. Part of it might be his inability to throw it for a strike, but when he's ahead in the count, a lot of his Ks come from guys chasing curves that practically bounce.

The TV guys called the HR pitch a hanging curve. I agree.

Huisj
08-06-2010, 09:42 AM
Someone called into the Score yesterday and broke down Jenks pitch selection. Apparently, he has greatly reduced the number of curves and is relying heavily on his slider. It seems like the slider is the pitch that is getting hammered. When he's at his best, he gets ahead with fastballs and uses his curve as his wipeout pitch. I'm not sure why he is reluctant to throw the curve as it is arguably his best pitch. Part of it might be his inability to throw it for a strike, but when he's ahead in the count, a lot of his Ks come from guys chasing curves that practically bounce.

Was that the same guy who was talking about his day/night splits too? His day game numbers are mindbogglingly bad this year (though they've been kind of all over the place other years, so hard to say if it's really an issue or just randomness of a small sample size):

2010:
day: 9.18 ERA, 1.920 WHIP, 16.2 IP
night: 2.28 ERA, 1.141 WHIP, 23.2 IP

2009:
day: 5.33 ERA, 1.224 WHIP, 25.1 IP (ERA very high because of 7 HR!)
night: 2.25 ERA, 1.321 WHIP, 28 IP (only 2 HR)

2008 (only gave up 3 HR all year!):
day: 1.50 ERA, 1.042 WHIP, 24 IP
night: 3.35 ERA, 1.142 ERA, 37.2 IP

2007 (only gave up 2 HR all year!):
day: 3.46 ERA, 0.962 WHIP, 26 IP
night: 2.31 ERA, 0.846 WHIP, 39 IP

2006:
day: 4.43 ERA, 1.299 WHIP, 22.1 IP
night: 3.80 ERA, 1.437 WHIP, 47.1 IP

2005:
day: 0.96 ERA, 1.179 WHIP, 9.1 IP
night: 3.30 ERA, 1.267 WHIP, 30 IP

career:
day: 4.22 ERA, 1.237 WHIP, 123.2 IP, 15 HR
night: 2.98 ERA, 1.196 WHIP, 205.2 IP, 10 HR

For whatever reason, whether random bad luck (or good luck at night I suppose) or just bad pitching, Jenks has been bad during the day for the last 2 years.

Harry Chappas
08-06-2010, 11:01 AM
The TV guys called the HR pitch a hanging curve. I agree.

I didn't see the game, but that may be the case. In any event, if the caller's stats were accurate, he's definitely changed his pitch selection significantly in the last few seasons. Whether or not that is part of the problem, who knows?

And yes, it was the same caller who was discussing his day/night splits.

I think Jenks will always be a bit of an enigma - one that should probably be relieved of his closing duties for a bit.

FielderJones
08-06-2010, 11:44 AM
I think Jenks will always be a bit of an enigma - one that should probably be relieved of his closing duties for a bit.

I think Jenks should be relieved of his day game closing duties for a bit. I also think he should ditch the slider and go back to throwing two pitches well.

pudge
08-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Honestly, what the HECK is it going to take to remove Jenks from this role? Seriously - WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE?

doublem23
08-06-2010, 02:02 PM
Honestly, what the HECK is it going to take to remove Jenks from this role? Seriously - WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE?

Considering Kotsay has been flirting with the Mendoza Line for most of the year and he gets the majority of DH at bats, probably a whole lot.

WizardsofOzzie
08-06-2010, 02:16 PM
Someone called into the Score yesterday and broke down Jenks pitch selection. Apparently, he has greatly reduced the number of curves and is relying heavily on his slider. It seems like the slider is the pitch that is getting hammered. When he's at his best, he gets ahead with fastballs and uses his curve as his wipeout pitch. I'm not sure why he is reluctant to throw the curve as it is arguably his best pitch. Part of it might be his inability to throw it for a strike, but when he's ahead in the count, a lot of his Ks come from guys chasing curves that practically bounce.

After looking at fangraphs, It looks like he's relied on his change more than usual this year. In 2010 Bobby's thrown a change up 6.4% of the time. his yearly avg for that pitch (they started keeping track in 07) is 3.2%. He seems to be recently consistent with his curve %

07: 11.2%
08: 8.2%
09: 8.4%
10: 9.1%

His slider use has actually gone down every year

07: 18.9%
08: 14.2%
09: 11.8%
10: 11.5%

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=8645&position=P#type

SCCWS
08-06-2010, 02:46 PM
Honestly, what the HECK is it going to take to remove Jenks from this role? Seriously - WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE?


Linebrink needs one more week of practice and then he will be ready to take over.

TDog
08-06-2010, 03:37 PM
Uh, that's exactly what it means at least 2/3 of the time.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, as some believe, the bullpen use was scripted before the game started, pending the Sox having a lead in the seventh. I don't believe I am, but if I am, this wasn't an example of operating with a closer-by-committee philosophy. Such a philosophy would not designate your closer-qualified game closings on a proportional basis. It would not arbitrarily divide the save opportunities equally among closer-qualified relievers -- at least not according to the major league pitching and bullpen coaches I've talked to.

If the White Sox had taken a closer-by-committee philosophy into Thursday's game, they would have pitched their three closers according to the matchups. Thornton would have faced the tough left-handed hitters to finish the seventh and get through the eighth and either Putz or Jenks would have closed in a part of the lineup where they matched up better.

As it turned out, Thornton walked the first two hitters he faced in the eighth. Had he remained in the game, the Sox may have been looking at a do-or-die ninth inning trailing the Tigers. Either Putz or Jenks had to come in to get out of trouble to protect tenuous lead. The pitcher you don't use would come in to pitch the ninth.

The discussion is moot, of course. Whether you said at the beginning of the game that Jenks was going to close or you went by the matchups, it ends the same way. Jenks wouldn't have come in to face the hitters Thornton faced in the eighth if you're going by matchups. It looks like most people here would have been more comfortable bringing Putz in with two on and one out in the eighth.

Not only is the discussion moot because for the above reason, but the White Sox won. The Tigers came back with three runs in the ninth to tie the game and then lost it. As recently as Sunday, the Tigers came back with three in the ninth against Papelbon to hand the Red Sox closer his fifth blown save before the Red Sox scored a run in the bottom of the ninth to win the game. Same thing. Sox win, Tigers lose.

VMSNS
08-06-2010, 03:43 PM
I think Jenks should be relieved of his day game closing duties for a bit. I also think he should ditch the slider and go back to throwing two pitches well.

Totally agreed about the slider. He really doesn't seem to throw it that well, and he throws it more than he should. Fastball, change, and hammer are all he needs. Ditch the slider, cutter, and sinker/2-seamer.

Craig Grebeck
08-06-2010, 05:58 PM
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, as some believe, the bullpen use was scripted before the game started, pending the Sox having a lead in the seventh. I don't believe I am, but if I am, this wasn't an example of operating with a closer-by-committee philosophy. Such a philosophy would not designate your closer-qualified game closings on a proportional basis. It would not arbitrarily divide the save opportunities equally among closer-qualified relievers -- at least not according to the major league pitching and bullpen coaches I've talked to.

If the White Sox had taken a closer-by-committee philosophy into Thursday's game, they would have pitched their three closers according to the matchups. Thornton would have faced the tough left-handed hitters to finish the seventh and get through the eighth and either Putz or Jenks would have closed in a part of the lineup where they matched up better.

As it turned out, Thornton walked the first two hitters he faced in the eighth. Had he remained in the game, the Sox may have been looking at a do-or-die ninth inning trailing the Tigers. Either Putz or Jenks had to come in to get out of trouble to protect tenuous lead. The pitcher you don't use would come in to pitch the ninth.

The discussion is moot, of course. Whether you said at the beginning of the game that Jenks was going to close or you went by the matchups, it ends the same way. Jenks wouldn't have come in to face the hitters Thornton faced in the eighth if you're going by matchups. It looks like most people here would have been more comfortable bringing Putz in with two on and one out in the eighth.

Not only is the discussion moot because for the above reason, but the White Sox won. The Tigers came back with three runs in the ninth to tie the game and then lost it. As recently as Sunday, the Tigers came back with three in the ninth against Papelbon to hand the Red Sox closer his fifth blown save before the Red Sox scored a run in the bottom of the ninth to win the game. Same thing. Sox win, Tigers lose.
Jenks is the closer, in the most traditional sense.

There, nine words. Only nine. Amazing.