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View Full Version : It's time to **** or get off the pot...


Kilroy
06-23-2002, 10:55 PM
These corpses that have been wearing Sox uniforms all season long had better wake the **** up in the next 20 hrs. If they can't find that little something extra this week, then they should shoot this horse and put the fans out of their misery. The Sox need to take at least 3 of 4 this week from the Twins. Anything less than a split is unacceptable. But even a split is no good really.

They need to spell it out for everyone. Last year is but a memory, and this year, the Twins are gonna have to earn it against us.

But if they show up like the zombies we've seen for the last month, then here's my line-up for Friday's game agains the Cub:

2b Harris
cf Rowand
rf Maggs
dh PK
1b Liefer
lf Borchard
3b Crede
ss Graffanino
c Johnson

We don't need to keep playing the same bum-ass team when they will have shown that they don't have, nor do they want to have, what it takes to make any noise this year.

Bucktown
06-23-2002, 10:59 PM
If your line-up is intended to punish the lame, then why are you trotting out Johnson? That guys sucks. He is batting sub-.200 and he can't throw out my grandmother.

Since we are playing corpse-ball, should we trade for Daryl Kile? Sorry, morbid humor.

Daver
06-23-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


2b Harris
cf Rowand
rf Maggs
dh PK
1b Liefer
lf Borchard
3b Crede
ss Graffanino
c Johnson

We don't need to keep playing the same bum-ass team when they will have shown that they don't have, nor do they want to have, what it takes to make any noise this year.

Borchard is NOT on the forty man roster,there is no way we see him in Chicago until there is a new CBA.

Welcome to the world of baseball buisness.

voodoochile
06-23-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
These corpses that have been wearing Sox uniforms all season long had better wake the **** up in the next 20 hrs. If they can't find that little something extra this week, then they should shoot this horse and put the fans out of their misery. The Sox need to take at least 3 of 4 this week from the Twins. Anything less than a split is unacceptable. But even a split is no good really.

They need to spell it out for everyone. Last year is but a memory, and this year, the Twins are gonna have to earn it against us.

But if they show up like the zombies we've seen for the last month, then here's my line-up for Friday's game agains the Cub:

2b Harris
cf Rowand
rf Maggs
dh PK
1b Liefer
lf Borchard
3b Crede
ss Graffanino
c Johnson

We don't need to keep playing the same bum-ass team when they will have shown that they don't have, nor do they want to have, what it takes to make any noise this year.

I'd like to agree with you, but the question for me is, "Which bum ass team?"

Is that the one with Durham at 2B and Valentin at SS?
The one with Graff at 2B and Clayton at SS?
The one with Rowand in LF batting 8th?
The one with Lee in LF batting 5th?
The one with Frank batting 3rd? 4th? 5th?
The one with Glover starting and Foulke closing? Vice Versa?

The only guys who know their roles on this team are Maggs, Konerko and Lofton (Durham when JM isn't losing his mind entirely). Everyone else could start almost anywhere and bat almost anywhere...

Kilroy
06-23-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
Since we are playing corpse-ball, should we trade for Daryl Kile? Sorry, morbid humor.

That was not even close to funny.

As far as Johnson, why not? He's better than Paul, and I don't wanna see Alomar pumping my gas, never mind calling pitches for the Sox at with his health, at his age, and in this stage of Sox life.

Kilroy
06-23-2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I'd like to agree with you, but the question for me is, "Which bum ass team?"

Is that the one with Durham at 2B and Valentin at SS?
The one with Graff at 2B and Clayton at SS?
The one with Rowand in LF batting 8th?
The one with Lee in LF batting 5th?
The one with Frank batting 3rd? 4th? 5th?
The one with Glover starting and Foulke closing? Vice Versa?

The only guys who know their roles on this team are Maggs, Konerko and Lofton (Durham when JM isn't losing his mind entirely). Everyone else could start almost anywhere and bat almost anywhere...

Man, this kinda crap irks me. When this stench first started, everyone said that Manuel needed to shake things up, send a message, bench some people, and start by moving Frank out of the 3 spot. So it happens, and still nothing works, so Manuel now gets lit up for looking for something that works. Every guy knows his role and that team, and thats to be ready to do the job your asked to do when your asked to do it. Problem is, only one guy (pitchcers excluded) is doing it.

CerberusWG
06-23-2002, 11:09 PM
All-bum team:

Durham-2B
Clayton-SS
C-Johnson
OF-Rowand
OF-Liefer
OF-Paul (he's versitaile baby!)
P-Buttah
1B-Thomas (ehh, not looking too hot!)
3B-Manos I guess

0-162 here we come!

Bucktown
06-23-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


That was not even close to funny.

As far as Johnson, why not? He's better than Paul, and I don't wanna see Alomar pumping my gas, never mind calling pitches for the Sox at with his health, at his age, and in this stage of Sox life.
Well, that is the problem all over, isn't it? We don't have great options. Johnson may be the worst catcher in baseball. He can't hit and he couldn't throw out Ron Santo (is that funny?). Clayton is the worst hitting everyday player I have ever seen, but at least he doesn't have multi-error games like Valentin who has completely lost the ability to get a clutch hit. It comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils at those positions.

voodoochile
06-23-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Man, this kinda crap irks me. When this stench first started, everyone said that Manuel needed to shake things up, send a message, bench some people, and start by moving Frank out of the 3 spot. So it happens, and still nothing works, so Manuel now gets lit up for looking for something that works. Every guy knows his role and that team, and thats to be ready to do the job your asked to do when your asked to do it. Problem is, only one guy (pitchcers excluded) is doing it.

You know, three weeks ago, I agreed with you. But, there is a big difference between moving Frank from 3rd to 5th and leaving the lineup alone and constantly changing the lineup.

You honestly think bouncing from second to seventh does a guy like Ray Durham good? You think saying "I'm benching Royce indefinitely, " and then playing him every second day is good management? You think telling Jose that he won't be bouncing all over the place and then doing the exact opposite is good for his morale? Shaking a team up is one thing, constantly changing people's job descriptions, slot in the lineup and role in the bullpen is not. Manuel hasn't got an f'n clue about how to run this team.

Stability is what wins in this game. Manuel doesn't even come close to showing it. Where was this team when he started messing with the lineup? First place? Tied? Now where are they?

He needs to wake up and find a lineup and a bullpen rotation and stick with it. If he cannot understand that that is one of the most basic marks of a winning team than he needs to go coach little league where everyone getting playing time counts as a win...

doublem23
06-23-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
Since we are playing corpse-ball, should we trade for Daryl Kile? Sorry, morbid humor.

Wow, you're a real *******, ya'know.

Kilroy
06-24-2002, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Stability is what wins in this game. Manuel doesn't even come close to showing it. Where was this team when he started messing with the lineup? First place? Tied? Now where are they?

He needs to wake up and find a lineup and a bullpen rotation and stick with it. If he cannot understand that that is one of the most basic marks of a winning team than he needs to go coach little league where everyone getting playing time counts as a win...

Stability is fine when things are working. If they are sucking ass and Manuel "plays stable" then people are saying he needs to do something. If Jose's morale is bruised by moving around, then he needs to do the job. Show some consistency at the plate, and catch the ball. Sorry, but a team that can't score can't afford to not catch. Jose would be stable on my bench if I was the manager.

Manuel does need to find something and stick with it, but in the last month, what has worked?? Who besides Graffanino and Konerko have shown they have the attitude? And Tony is another one who has trouble picking up the damn ball.

When Manuel started to make changes, the team was already on the downward trend and had been for a couple of weeks. Moving a couple things around was supposed to wake some folks up. Then our closer started pissing himself on the mound. You can't expect Foulke to get sent out to save a game the way he was/is pitching. Getting Royce out of the batting order is a good thing, but putting Valentin at short is a bad thing.

I agree that a set line-up is best. The first one that shows any sign of life should get the job.

voodoochile
06-24-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Stability is fine when things are working. If they are sucking ass and Manuel "plays stable" then people are saying he needs to do something. If Jose's morale is bruised by moving around, then he needs to do the job. Show some consistency at the plate, and catch the ball. Sorry, but a team that can't score can't afford to not catch. Jose would be stable on my bench if I was the manager.

Manuel does need to find something and stick with it, but in the last month, what has worked?? Who besides Graffanino and Konerko have shown they have the attitude? And Tony is another one who has trouble picking up the damn ball.

When Manuel started to make changes, the team was already on the downward trend and had been for a couple of weeks. Moving a couple things around was supposed to wake some folks up. Then our closer started pissing himself on the mound. You can't expect Foulke to get sent out to save a game the way he was/is pitching. Getting Royce out of the batting order is a good thing, but putting Valentin at short is a bad thing.

I agree that a set line-up is best. The first one that shows any sign of life should get the job.

Well, for the most part we agree. My point is that no one likes working for a wishy-washy boss. It isn't entirely about bruised egos. It is about performance. The way you field at 3rd and at SS are different. The way you try to hit batting second is different than the way you try to hit batting seventh. The team needs different things out of you at each position and in each slot. If you are constantly moving, you never have the chance to settle into a role, find a comfort zone, start to imporve. Shaking up the lineup is fine, but you don't do it every day.

The constantly changing lineups and position changes are something that need to stop if this team is going to achieve some measure of success. No team enters the playoffs with different lineups on different days except for a pitcher and maybe one other position (L/R platoon or a certain catcher for a certain pitcher). Even then, the platooned players generally bat in the same slot in the order.

All of us have talked about Ray's difficulties through controling his natural instinct to swing for the fences for the good of the team. When he bats sixth or seventh, we want him to be more aggressive to help drive in the runners that are (theoretically) on base already. Batting first or second he is supposed to take lots of pitches and get on base for the big guys who follow. The change in thinking gets him in trouble and he gets tied up inside (I admit I am guessing here, but it does make sense).

The same goes for other players who are constantly bouncing around the field and around the order. What happened to benching Royce? What happened to benching Lee? What happened to Frank batting 5th? What about not moving Jose back and forth between SS and 3rd? Have you ever worked for a boss who couldn't make up his mind and constantly did the opposite of what he said? It isn't fun and it doesn't improve productivity in any profession.

All of us admit that JM is a players manager and has done a good job of getting this team to point B (challanging for the division crown on a regular basis). Now he needs to make the necessary changes in himself to get the team to point C - consistently making a pennant run. If not, he should go away. His philosophy isn't working.

Paulwny
06-24-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile

His philosophy isn't working.

Part of an interview with JM's mentor, Felipe Alou:

Sometimes I'll bring in the hitting coach and ask him if I should change the line-up or if there is a batter I should walk today...because I feel like I'm failing the way I'm doing. Sometimes I'll bring in all of the coaches here ... because there are times of crisis like any other [group]. And there are times that you may not be going through a crisis but you could see it coming. You have to be able to anticipate. it is the obligation of the coach and the staff to be ahead of the storm. So when the storm hits, you will be fully prepared...and you won't be hurt as badly. This is a very important part of this business.


Maybe JM is getting too much advice.

FarWestChicago
06-24-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Stability is fine when things are working. If they are sucking ass and Manuel "plays stable" then people are saying he needs to do something. If Jose's morale is bruised by moving around, then he needs to do the job. Show some consistency at the plate, and catch the ball. Sorry, but a team that can't score can't afford to not catch. Jose would be stable on my bench if I was the manager. :buddylee

Thanks, Kilroy. You always have my back. You know it's ridiculous to expect me to hit over .200 and not make errors. All this pressure on me to hit like Joe DiMaggio has given me some glove trouble. At least I can still move. Did you see me dive out of the way of that ball in the Yankee's series? Buddy has still got it!

Dadawg_77
06-24-2002, 12:36 PM
Is getting rid of Mr. Clayton the answer to all of the Sox troubles. No. Would getting rid of Clayton solve some of the teams problems, yes. Thats why Clayton got to go. He is hurting the team. There are other things that need to be done to turn around this team but benching Clayton is a step in the right direction.

Kilroy
06-24-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Thanks, Kilroy. You always have my back. You know it's ridiculous to expect me to hit over .200 and not make errors. All this pressure on me to hit like Joe DiMaggio has given me some glove trouble. At least I can still move. Did you see me dive out of the way of that ball in the Yankee's series? Buddy has still got it!

Hey, no problem. Anything I can do to help insure that the ball is picked up and thrown where it's supposed to go. If we get beat, it won't be because we're giving away outs, innings, and runs by not playing good D.

Hey, a guy can't hit, and that's bad. But there is no ****ing excuse for not being able to field the ball.

Kilroy
06-24-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Thats why Clayton got to go. He is hurting the team.

There's only 2 maybe 3 guys that aren't pitchers that aren't hurting the team.

Thomas can't hit.
Lofton isn't hitting or running.
Durham is just plain stoned -- can't hit, can't field, can't think.
Valentin isn't hitting (.226 in June), and fielding with boxing gloves on.
Johnson can't hit, and isn't throwing runners out.
Clayton can't hit.
Leifer isn't hitting.
Lee isn't hitting.
Graffanino is hitting a bit but he drops the ball too damn much.

Who exactly on this list is HELPING THE TEAM???

FanOf14
06-24-2002, 06:38 PM
It seems that on a regular basis, Konerko, Maggs, Buehrle and Garland are the only ones that care and show up to the park. Wright shows up when he gets there before his evil twin Wrong.