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voodoochile
06-23-2002, 10:37 PM
Anyone else tired of realizing that management has no idea what the fans want to see?

I think most of us agree on many things...

1)bench Royce permanently
2)go with a set lineup
3)find a 5th starter, even if it means calling up Ginter
4)bench Royce permanently
5)Fire Nardi
6)Teach JM how to manage consistently or get him the *** out of here
7)bench Royce permanently
8)Assign someone to be the closer
9)Figure out how to use a bullpen
10)bring up Crede

How do we convey these messages to management and let them know that we think things could be at least somewhat better if some of these changes were made? Does anyone think they care? What is the forum for doing this? Newspapers? Letters to JR? Letters to KW? Letters to Royce?

Is there a way for the common fan who clearly has a better plan for the day to day running of the Sox to get his ideas heard? It's painfully obvious that JM has no plan anymore. Some of that is KW's fault, but most of it lies with JM personally. He nees to stop throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks and actually follow through on his threats/promises. If he doesn't, then the team really won't go anywhere...

Time to start wearing bags to the park and carrying "Fire Manuel" signs?

CerberusWG
06-23-2002, 10:40 PM
Buy out the jumbotron to say Fire Jerry Manuel on those Birthday messages.

Jerry_Manuel
06-23-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Time to start wearing bags to the park and carrying "Fire Manuel" signs?

Honestly I think that's really all you could do. In other cities, the answer would be to stop going to the games, but we already have that problem.

voodoochile
06-23-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Honestly I think that's really all you could do. In other cities, the answer would be to stop going to the games, but we already have that problem.

If any less people show up, they'll start rumors that we will be contracted...

It isn't that I think JM is a bad guy, or that he doesn't care, but he clearly has NO plan for what to do to right the ship. He keeps working circularly and it isn't helping...

Let Nossak finish the season and see what happens...

Jerry_Manuel
06-23-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It isn't that I think JM is a bad guy, or that he doesn't care, but he clearly has NO plan for what to do to right the ship. He keeps working circularly and it isn't helping...


Your right. He doesn't know how to fix this mess and he's really trying to pull out all the stops.

I'm not sure how much a new manager can change things. He'll still have to play Lee, if they indeed are shopping him. Royce will still get his playing time, and Crede still won't be here. So perhaps the only change will be a new manager and a lineup.

Procol Harum
06-23-2002, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How do we convey these messages to management and let them know that we think things could be at least somewhat better if some of these changes were made? Does anyone think they care? What is the forum for doing this? Newspapers? Letters to JR? Letters to KW? Letters to Royce?

Is there a way for the common fan who clearly has a better plan for the day to day running of the Sox to get his ideas heard?

Ain't no use, Voo. This organization has cornered the market on bunker mentality when it comes to criticism from their fan base. JR is the guy who tries to tell us repeatedly that all of his market surveys tell him that attendance woes have nothing to do with his ownership or his role in the '94 strike (yeah, and my dog excretes ice cream). These are the same clowns who stuck with the legend, Terry Bevington for, what--nearly 4 years when the youngest fan could tell that he was an absolute incompetent. With that sort of delusional thinking in place, what can we say that is going to get through??

If anything we should maybe use reverse psychology as our major strategy as Reinsdorf always seems to do the exact opposite thing that Sox fans would like to see done, whether it be in terms of marketing, administrative hiring decisions, or player-personnel. Start the "Keep Jerry Manuel" movement and start bringing banners to that effect to the ballgame--JR would probably fire him immediately.

voodoochile
06-23-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Your right. He doesn't know how to fix this mess and he's really trying to pull out all the stops.

I'm not sure how much a new manager can change things. He'll still have to play Lee, if they indeed are shopping him. Royce will still get his playing time, and Crede still won't be here. So perhaps the only change will be a new manager and a lineup.

That's the thing. There doesn't need to be a lot of change. Baseball is a game of rhythm. Find a slot and hit there. Find a spot and play there. Know your roll in the bullpen and pitch there. Constant change is not conducive to success in any sport, but even more so in baseball where timing is so much a part of the game...

Lee is not the problem. Glover is not the problem. The problem is that no one knows there role or what they will be asked to do tomorrow. Will I be starting? Where will I be batting? There is a big difference between hitting second and hitting seventh in terms of what the team needs from you. There is a big difference between starting at SS and starting at 3B.

Jerry is constantly saying one thing and doing something else. This was the exact problem with Wannstedt. Eventually people stop listening...

Bucktown
06-23-2002, 11:07 PM
I reject the premise of the initial question. I would never want to see the team run by public opinion. It would be like the all-star game.

I agree that Royce is a cancer that needs to be removed. He has already metastasized to third base. The catching situation is pretty grim right now too.

WinningUgly!
06-23-2002, 11:13 PM
I think the problem is that this franchise...top to bottom...is too stubborn for it's own good. They flat out refuse to admit when mistakes are made & stand by them in hopes that things will eventually work out according to plan. They dealt for Clayton, so they'll continue to march his worthless ass out to SS day after day with the slim chance he'll eventually become a .250 hitter. Jerry Manuel & Kenny Williams are Reinsdorf's guys & he's going to stand behind them no matter how many bad decisions they make...regardless of how much it hurts the franchise. I have a feeling that until JR, KW & JM are able to admit to the mistakes they've made & cut their losses...our suffering will continue.

ma-gaga
06-23-2002, 11:47 PM
Putting the trash bags over your heads isn't that bad of an idea. Because:

1.) You show that you are a fan, willing to pay to watch the product.
2.) You acknowledge that the product sucks.
3.) You get seen and noticed by all, including ownership and management.
4.) You send a message that if you put a good product on the field, this won't happen.

Just my thoughts.

doublem23
06-23-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I reject the premise of the initial question. I would never want to see the team run by public opinion. It would be like the all-star game.

I'm more comfortable with the public running this team than the current shmoes...

:reinsy
One MILLION dollars for a baseball player? I don't have that much money. Now hush up and pay $13 for parking and $4.75 for a cup of beer.

:KW
Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, and Paul Konerko for John Samson? Sounds like a good deal. Who? You meant the waterboy, Sam Johnson? Sounds like a good deal.

:gallas
"It's time" to bring your mom's 2nd cousin's hairdresser's ex-boyfriend's uncle's auto mechanic's son's T-ball coach's high school science teacher's wife's gardener's brother-in-law's nephew to the park and get half-price with a Pepsi product.

:nardi
Shut up and throw Barry Bonds one straight down the middle of the plate with no break. I don't think he'll be expecting that with the bases loaded.

:jerry
Royce, why don't you lead off today? The Ouija board said you were ready to bust out of that 2-year slump. Maggs, Paul? Uh, the coin came up heads today, so that means your benched.

I could go on, but I'm afraid I might hang myself.

Remember, its your fault we're this bad anyways.

Nellie_Fox
06-24-2002, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Lee is not the problem. Glover is not the problem. The problem is that no one knows there role or what they will be asked to do tomorrow. Will I be starting? Where will I be batting? There is a big difference between hitting second and hitting seventh in terms of what the team needs from you.Are the players ever at fault? Oh, boo-hoo, I've been moved in the batting order, so now I don't know how to hit.

Originally posted by Bucktown
I agree that Royce is a cancer that needs to be removed. He has already metastasized to third base.Unbelievable. UNBELIEVABLE! Now it's Royce's fault that Graf and Manos can't catch the damn ball. I thought the Royce hating had reached it's zenith with the proclamation that he had singlehandedly destroyed last year, but this just may top it. Yep, Royce is only hitting .200, so I guess the other guys in the infield might as well pack it in for the year.

ISUSoxfan
06-24-2002, 05:29 AM
:ass
"These litte line-up shake-ups aren't working. If I was managing this team you know what I'd do...I'd put Clayton at DH and play Frank at shortstop. Is anyone out there still listening?" :gulp:

CubKilla
06-24-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


I'm more comfortable with the public running this team than the current shmoes...

:reinsy
One MILLION dollars for a baseball player? I don't have that much money. Now hush up and pay $13 for parking and $4.75 for a cup of beer.

:KW
Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, and Paul Konerko for John Samson? Sounds like a good deal. Who? You meant the waterboy, Sam Johnson? Sounds like a good deal.

:gallas
"It's time" to bring your mom's 2nd cousin's hairdresser's ex-boyfriend's uncle's auto mechanic's son's T-ball coach's high school science teacher's wife's gardener's brother-in-law's nephew to the park and get half-price with a Pepsi product.

:nardi
Shut up and throw Barry Bonds one straight down the middle of the plate with no break. I don't think he'll be expecting that with the bases loaded.

:jerry
Royce, why don't you lead off today? The Ouija board said you were ready to bust out of that 2-year slump. Maggs, Paul? Uh, the coin came up heads today, so that means your benched.

I could go on, but I'm afraid I might hang myself.

Remember, its your fault we're this bad anyways.

If there's one thing Sox fans can take from how bad this team is, it's being able to laugh at posts like this. Because, in all seriousness, I've gone from exhibiting extreme anger at the Sox losing to just shaking my head and laughing when they lose one game 15-2 and the next game 9-1. Anything less than a sweep of Minnesota is unacceptable. And let's all go to a Sox game, pool our money, and use the scoreboard messager to show, "FIRE MANUEL," "FIRE NARDI," "FIRE JR," "FIRE KW," messages etc. When they refuse to take our money and post such wisdom, we all retain a lawyer and sue their a$$ for millions for infinging upon our freedom of speech. We retain the lawyer on contingency and NEVER settle out of court. Hopefully, the judges ruling and JR's lawyer bill will bankrupt him and he'll have to sell the team..... or all of us are awarded the team due to our "mental pain and suffering" as Sox fans for 20 years under the Reinsdorf Regime.

Kilroy
06-24-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Are the players ever at fault? Oh, boo-hoo, I've been moved in the batting order, so now I don't know how to hit.

Unbelievable. UNBELIEVABLE! Now it's Royce's fault that Graf and Manos can't catch the damn ball. I thought the Royce hating had reached it's zenith with the proclamation that he had singlehandedly destroyed last year, but this just may top it. Yep, Royce is only hitting .200, so I guess the other guys in the infield might as well pack it in for the year.

Preach it, Nellie!


Originally posted by CubKilla

...When they refuse to take our money and post such wisdom, we all retain a lawyer and sue their a$$ for millions for infinging upon our freedom of speech...

Why do you think your right of free speech would be infringed upon when the Sox refused to post your message on the jumbotron? Learn what free speech means.

Dadawg_77
06-24-2002, 01:55 PM
Want to get JR attension. Well if anyone on this board is a venture capitalist, can you help out in raising about $200 million dollars. To bad this wasn't 1998, becuase PHG could issue a IPO for WSI INC., then use the stock and cash from the IPO to buy our Jerry and his partners. But if we could raise about $200 million, well maybe $150 million, we would run the team.

FarmerAndy
06-24-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

Unbelievable. UNBELIEVABLE! Now it's Royce's fault that Graf and Manos can't catch the damn ball. I thought the Royce hating had reached it's zenith with the proclamation that he had singlehandedly destroyed last year, but this just may top it. Yep, Royce is only hitting .200, so I guess the other guys in the infield might as well pack it in for the year.

I'm with ya Nellie. I withdrew my support for Royce awhile back because I figured that a good fielding shortstop who can't hit that well serves no purpose on a team where barely anybody can hit and everybody else stinks on the field. But it is absolutely ridiculous to blame the pathetic display that this WHOLE team has shown us on Clayton. I'm not gonna make excuses for Royce's poor performance at the dish, but it's not his fault that the rest of this team sucks too.

voodoochile
06-24-2002, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy


I'm with ya Nellie. I withdrew my support for Royce awhile back because I figured that a good fielding shortstop who can't hit that well serves no purpose on a team where barely anybody can hit and everybody else stinks on the field. But it is absolutely ridiculous to blame the pathetic display that this WHOLE team has shown us on Clayton. I'm not gonna make excuses for Royce's poor performance at the dish, but it's not his fault that the rest of this team sucks too.

Since when was anyone blaming the whole season's problems on Royce? He is definitely PART of the problem, but the bigger issue is JM being wishy washy on whether Royce is benched or not.

Are the players ever at fault? Oh, boo-hoo, I've been moved in the batting order, so now I don't know how to hit.

Sure the players are at fault, but come on, are you saying you want and expect the same swing from your second and seventh place hitter? Yes it matters when a guy is constantly being asked to do different things on back to back days. Yes it matters when a guy is told, "You won't be moved around a lot in the field," and then the opposite happens. You are an ex-cop, would you have liked it if your superior kept changing your partner every day? What if he one day put you in a violent part of town and then kept you in a nice easy job for a week, only to throw you back into the rough spot occasionally? Would you feel comfortable when you suddenly had to go work in an area that you were less familiar with and knew was more dangerous?

Yeah, baseball isn't life and death, but EVERY job requires time and consistency to get good at it. Why would we expect less of baseball players?

I'm not crying for the players, I'm crying for the fans who have to deal with the results caused by all this tinkering...

Will it work? Who knows? But, the present system is stinking the joint up. Time for a change and by that, I mean time for LESS change. Go back to the lineup that worked the first month and have the guts to stay with it for a month. If that doesn't work, then the team isn't going to compete anyway and they should try to make some trades berfore the deadline...

After that, they should fire the coaching staff and find someone who understands the day to day and inning to inning responsibility of a manager and sometimes, that means doing nothing and watching the team fail...