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hi im skot
07-21-2010, 01:22 AM
I was at the Cubs/Astros game tonight and was distracted all night by trying to figure out something about the scoreboard.

For the Cubs line score, they had the first two slots with the number of the starting pitcher (obviously very traditional), as well as the current reliever's number. However, for every other line score, there were numbers listed that weren't the starting pitcher's number. As an example, the Sox/Seattle game had both SP slots showing #2, the Phillies game had #11 and the Minnesota game had #13.

This paperweight (or whatever it's supposed to be) gives you an idea on what the hell I'm talking about:

http://mall.ballparks.com/images/PSWrigley.jpg

My friend and I assume that the Cubs arbitrarily assigned numbers to each team's pitchers.

So, I'm a little embarrassed to be asking this, but what do these numbers mean?

kittle42
07-21-2010, 01:27 AM
The pitchers for other teams are listed in the scorecards from, say, 1-13. The numbers are not arbitrary - they relate to the lists in the scorecard.

hi im skot
07-21-2010, 01:28 AM
The pitchers for other teams are listed in the scorecards from, say, 1-13. The numbers are not arbitrary - they relate to the lists in the scorecard.

OK, so our guess was indeed correct (to an extent). I didn't have a scorecard handy, so I couldn't confirm.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

Thanks, kittle.

kittle42
07-21-2010, 01:38 AM
OK, so our guess was indeed correct (to an extent). I didn't have a scorecard handy, so I couldn't confirm.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

Thanks, kittle.

It's a silly way to do it, but I'm guessing it's the way it was done many years ago.

hi im skot
07-21-2010, 01:40 AM
It's a silly way to do it, but I'm guessing it's the way it was done many years ago.

You'd have to have A LOT of numbers to cover the pitching staffs of 30 teams.

doublem23
07-21-2010, 01:49 AM
You'd have to have A LOT of numbers to cover the pitching staffs of 30 teams.

That's why they do it that way.

Not enough room up there to store 3 #57's in case Hector Ambriz, Taylor Tankersley, and Jake Arrieta are all pitching simultaneously.

LITTLE NELL
07-21-2010, 06:42 AM
I know the Sox at old Comiskey in the 50s and 60s on the old board posted out of town pitchers the same way (1-10 from scorecard, most teams carried only 10 pitchers, some only 9) and I'm pretty sure all the teams did it that way.

eriqjaffe
07-21-2010, 09:54 AM
It's a silly way to do it, but I'm guessing it's the way it was done many years ago.Remember, uniform numbers weren't used by all teams until sometime in the 1930s, well after Wrigley opened. So the scorecard method would be the only reasonable way to indicate who was pitching in the out-of-town games.

tebman
07-21-2010, 10:46 AM
I know the Sox at old Comiskey in the 50s and 60s on the old board posted out of town pitchers the same way (1-10 from scorecard, most teams carried only 10 pitchers, some only 9) and I'm pretty sure all the teams did it that way.

This great picture of Veeck's original board shows what LN is talking about. The other teams' pitchers were listed in the scorecards with arbitrary numbers 1-10, the way that umpires are listed in the current scorecards by the numbers on their shoulders.


http://flyingsock.com/OldComiskey/images/comiskey63.jpg

Hitmen77
07-22-2010, 12:56 PM
This great picture of Veeck's original board shows what LN is talking about. The other teams' pitchers were listed in the scorecards with arbitrary numbers 1-10, the way that umpires are listed in the current scorecards by the numbers on their shoulders.


http://flyingsock.com/OldComiskey/images/comiskey63.jpg

Cool picture. From the "Next Year Watch the Sox on WFLD" sign and the Sox-O-Gram that says Jim Kaat is 1-4 this year, it looks like this picture was taken on May 17, 1967.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=kaatji01&t=p&year=1967

LITTLE NELL
07-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Cool picture. From the "Next Year Watch the Sox on WFLD" sign and the Sox-O-Gram that says Jim Kaat is 1-4 this year, it looks like this picture was taken on May 17, 1967.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=kaatji01&t=p&year=1967

And thats the mighty Pete Ward at bat.
67 was a strange year for the Sox, they led the AL most of the year but they failed to draw 1,000,000 for only the 2nd time since 1951. I think the casual fan was drawn to Wrigley that year as the Cubs of Banks, Santo and Williams were more exciting to watch than another 2-1 Sox victory. That year led to the worst 3 years of White Sox baseball with horrible teams and lousy attendance.
We have talked about this before but that sign on the scoreboard hyping the Sox leaving WGN and going to WFLD in 1968 was most likely the worst move the Sox ever made.

kba
07-22-2010, 02:38 PM
I know the Sox at old Comiskey in the 50s and 60s on the old board posted out of town pitchers the same way (1-10 from scorecard, most teams carried only 10 pitchers, some only 9) and I'm pretty sure all the teams did it that way.

I have a 1972 Sox scorecard that still lists out-of-town pitchers with numbers from 1 - 12. By '77, they had gone to uniform numbers in the scorecard, but I don't have scorecards from '73-'76, so I'm not sure what year they made the change.

By the way, there are some great old scoreboard photos here (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?98810-Pictures-of-Old-Scoreboards-%28before-they-went-to-video-boards-of-today%29), including shots of the old Comiskey Park board before Veeck enlarged it. Among the oddities in these photos:

- During the 1959 World Series, the full names of the Sox and Dodgers lineups were posted manually where the out-of-town scores normally would be.

- In the Comiskey Park photo with Ted Williams at the plate, there's a baffling group of numbers at the right side of the line score. (3, 2, 18, 8 for Boston; 4, 19, 10 for the Sox.) Any guesses what those were?

- The Griffith Stadium board used "CHICO" as an abbreviation for "Chicago," which I've never seen before anywhere.

- The Cleveland scoreboard of the '60's and early '70's was almost identical to the Comiskey Park board, except Cleveland didn't have the "exploding" parts.

downstairs
07-22-2010, 03:56 PM
- In the Comiskey Park photo with Ted Williams at the plate, there's a baffling group of numbers at the right side of the line score. (3, 2, 18, 8 for Boston; 4, 19, 10 for the Sox.) Any guesses what those were?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/phil62/baseball%20site/Williams57Comiskey2.jpg


Hmmm.... baffling. What it seems to be is this. There's actually 5 numbers.

The first three are runs, hits errors. In this photo the "runs" is not lit up yet. Notice there are 10 innings worth of innings, then what seems to be an un-lit column, then the 3 and 4.

Also, the 3rd column (errors) for the sox is unlit too.

The second and third column are probably the standard starting pitcher and current pitcher respectively.

Anyone else know?

I can't find a clear enough photo of the old scoreboard to see the headers.

kba
07-22-2010, 05:15 PM
The second and third column are probably the standard starting pitcher and current pitcher respectively.



I thought about that, but it seems odd that both starters already would have left a 2-1 game after 5 innings. (I guess it's possible there was a long rain delay that forced both managers to pull their starters. Plausible, since they're just starting the 6th inning at 10:00.)

Another possibility:
Could this be the second game of a double-header, and the last column is saying that the Sox won the first game 10-8?

LITTLE NELL
07-22-2010, 05:49 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/phil62/baseball%20site/Williams57Comiskey2.jpg


Hmmm.... baffling. What it seems to be is this. There's actually 5 numbers.

The first three are runs, hits errors. In this photo the "runs" is not lit up yet. Notice there are 10 innings worth of innings, then what seems to be an un-lit column, then the 3 and 4.

Also, the 3rd column (errors) for the sox is unlit too.

The second and third column are probably the standard starting pitcher and current pitcher respectively.

Anyone else know?

I can't find a clear enough photo of the old scoreboard to see the headers.

IIRC the last column was the score of the 1st game of a DH, so the Sox won the 1st game 10-8. If you look at the out of town games no one else had a twin bill that night. Look real hard after the pitchers numbers and you can see 1st meaning the 1st game of a DH.
Thats a great picture with Pierce getting ready to pitch to Teddy Ballgame.
Any idea what the date was? I'm pretty sure its before 1958 because you can read Bklyn hosting Milwaukee.

Hitmen77
07-22-2010, 07:02 PM
IIRC the last colomn was the score of the 1st game of a DH, so the Sox won the 1st game 10-8. If you look at the out of town games no one else had a twin bill that night. Look real hard after the pitchers numbers and you can see 1st meaning the 1st game of a DH.
Thats a great picture with Pierce getting ready to pitch to Teddy Ballgame.
Any idea what the date was? I'm pretty sure its before 1958 because you can read Bklyn hosting Milwaukee.

The link on kba's post says 1957. As far as the exact date, we could probably track that down on baseball-reference.com and look for a day that the Sox played a DH at home vs. Boston and won the first game 10-8.

kba
07-22-2010, 07:04 PM
Any idea what the date was? I'm pretty sure its before 1958 because you can read Bklyn hosting Milwaukee.


Here's the game (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=195708230CHA) ... and the answer to the mysterious numbers on the board. The last two numbers are the uniform numbers of the pitcher and catcher. 19 and 10 for Billy Pierce and Sherm Lollar; 18 and 8 for Frank Sullivan and Pete Daley. I had no idea that catcher's numbers ever were posted like that on MLB scoreboards.

Hitmen77
07-22-2010, 07:08 PM
And thats the mighty Pete Ward at bat.
67 was a strange year for the Sox, they led the AL most of the year but they failed to draw 1,000,000 for only the 2nd time since 1951. I think the casual fan was drawn to Wrigley that year as the Cubs of Banks, Santo and Williams were more exciting to watch than another 2-1 Sox victory. That year led to the worst 3 years of White Sox baseball with horrible teams and lousy attendance.
We have talked about this before but that sign on the scoreboard hyping the Sox leaving WGN and going to WFLD in 1968 was most likely the worst move the Sox ever made.

That was before my time, but did the civil unrest of the 1960s affect Sox attendance in '67?

1967 was the end of an era of good Sox teams. After that, it was many years of mediocrity and threatened moves. The Sox were buried on Channel 44 or pay TV and they changed uniforms about every 5 years. Good years like '72, '77, and '83 were the exception to the norm.

Yeah, that move away from WGN was a terrible one. Then 14 years later, the Sox did it again by moving to Pay TV SportsVision for most of their games. I can only imagine how many fans the Sox lost from '68 to sometime in the 90s because kids just couldn't access them on TV.

LITTLE NELL
07-22-2010, 07:54 PM
Here's the game (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=195708230CHA) ... and the answer to the mysterious numbers on the board. The last two numbers are the uniform numbers of the pitcher and catcher. 19 and 10 for Billy Pierce and Sherm Lollar; 18 and 8 for Frank Sullivan and Pete Daley. I had no idea that catcher's numbers ever were posted like that on MLB scoreboards.

Must have been an hour rain delay because games started at 8pm in those days and the box score had the time of game at 2:24. It was almost 10pm on the clock and it was only the top of the 5th.
I'm sure I was in bed with my transistor radio under my pillow listening to Bob Elson call the game. How I miss those days.

LITTLE NELL
07-22-2010, 07:59 PM
That was before my time, but did the civil unrest of the 1960s affect Sox attendance in '67?

1967 was the end of an era of good Sox teams. After that, it was many years of mediocrity and threatened moves. The Sox were buried on Channel 44 or pay TV and they changed uniforms about every 5 years. Good years like '72, '77, and '83 were the exception to the norm.

Yeah, that move away from WGN was a terrible one. Then 14 years later, the Sox did it again by moving to Pay TV SportsVision for most of their games. I can only imagine how many fans the Sox lost from '68 to sometime in the 90s because kids just couldn't access them on TV.

Civil unrest started with the 68 season, the Sox home opener in 68 was 6 days after Martin Luther King was assasinated and only 7,756 showed up for the game.

Fenway
07-22-2010, 08:24 PM
You'd have to have A LOT of numbers to cover the pitching staffs of 30 teams.

Red Sox do it :)

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090824/GAL-09Aug24-2516/media/PHO-09Aug24-175333.jpg

Remember the Cubs were the first to sell JUST a scorecard not a program ( The White Sox followed later....I suspect Veeck came up with the idea)

Brian26
07-22-2010, 08:39 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/phil62/baseball%20site/Williams57Comiskey2.jpg


Hmmm.... baffling. What it seems to be is this. There's actually 5 numbers.

The first three are runs, hits errors. In this photo the "runs" is not lit up yet. Notice there are 10 innings worth of innings, then what seems to be an un-lit column, then the 3 and 4.

Also, the 3rd column (errors) for the sox is unlit too.

The second and third column are probably the standard starting pitcher and current pitcher respectively.

Anyone else know?

I can't find a clear enough photo of the old scoreboard to see the headers.

Cool photo.

Great thread.