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stevemcstud
07-20-2010, 06:43 PM
Was looking at these stats and they seemed pretty interesting. Now I am not about to say I am glad we have Andruw Jones over Thome by any means but check these stats out.

Jones is pretty much on par as far as Games played, Hits, HRs, RBIs, and Runs Scored.

Only difference is when Andruw Strikes out Thome walks. Thats why there hit totals are pretty much identical.

With Jones' defensive skills and Thome's lack thereof plus Jones can run well and has stolen 8 bags I am happier than I thought I would be with Jones.

Andruw Jones - G 63 / PA 229 / H 41 / HR 13 / R 25 / RBI 30 / SB 8 / BA .210
Jim Thome - G 65 / PA 192 / H 42 / HR 11 / R 24 / RBI 30 / BA .267

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 06:53 PM
Was looking at these stats and they seemed pretty interesting. Now I am not about to say I am glad we have Andruw Jones over Thome by any means but check these stats out.

Jones is pretty much on par as far as Games played, Hits, HRs, RBIs, and Runs Scored.

Only difference is when Andruw Strikes out Thome walks. Thats why there hit totals are pretty much identical.

With Jones' defensive skills and Thome's lack thereof plus Jones can run well and has stolen 8 bags I am happier than I thought I would be with Jones.

Andruw Jones - G 63 / PA 229 / H 41 / HR 13 / R 25 / RBI 30 / SB 8 / BA .210
Jim Thome - G 65 / PA 192 / H 42 / HR 11 / R 24 / RBI 30 / BA .267

You are missing a couple of key stats.

BA/OBP/SLG/OPS




Thome - .264/.385/.553/.939
Jones - .210/.319/.451/.770

Thome looks a lot better here. Those walks due matter. That said, I'm not terribly upset with Jones as a 4th outfielder considering he is only making 500M.

JermaineDye05
07-20-2010, 06:58 PM
Jones won us a couple of games earlier in the year. Those alone made him worth more than the $500,000 we signed him for.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 06:58 PM
Thome vs Kotsay is the real comparison to be made. That is the production we swapped Thome for.

pythons007
07-20-2010, 06:59 PM
You are missing a couple of key stats.

BA/OBP/SLG/OPS




Thome - .264/.385/.553/.939
Jones - .210/.319/.451/.770

Thome looks a lot better here. Those walks due matter. That said, I'm not terribly upset with Jones as a 4th outfielder considering he is only making 500M.

I sure hope not!! It's more or less 500K, LOL!!

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 07:00 PM
...and this is why counting stats are FAR more misleading than percentile ones. Jones has been hot garbage since a hot April but I can't complain much because he plays a decent defence, gets little playing time and makes jack squat. Kotsay, on the other hand...

JermaineDye05
07-20-2010, 07:03 PM
Thome vs Kotsay is the real comparison to be made. That is the production we swapped Thome for.

FWIW, Thome would have NEVER played the field. Kotsay at least gave us the ability to rest Konerko and occasionally Quentin.

Boondock Saint
07-20-2010, 07:04 PM
Jones won us a couple of games earlier in the year. Those alone made him worth more than the $500,000 we signed him for.

Thome wouldn't have won us any games to this point?

DirtySox
07-20-2010, 07:05 PM
Thome wouldn't have won us any games to this point?

Nope. Base-clogger.

JermaineDye05
07-20-2010, 07:06 PM
Thome wouldn't have won us any games to this point?

There's no way to prove that. I'm just going by what I know for a fact. I can think of two games for a fact that Andruw helped us win. One of those being a game in Toronto where it looked like we were dead to rights and the other a game against Seattle where it looked like the bullpen pissed away.

All I'm saying is that Jones is worth more than the $500,000 based on that fact alone. As I said in a post above, Jim wouldn't have been able to play the field which is something that both Jones and Kotsay can do which helps keep some of our guys fresh.

For the record, this doesn't mean I don't want Adam Dunn. I'd take him in a heartbeat over the combo we have now obviously.

MVP Mark Kotsay
07-20-2010, 07:16 PM
Was looking at these stats and they seemed pretty interesting. Now I am not about to say I am glad we have Andruw Jones over Thome by any means but check these stats out.

Jones is pretty much on par as far as Games played, Hits, HRs, RBIs, and Runs Scored.

Only difference is when Andruw Strikes out Thome walks. Thats why there hit totals are pretty much identical.

With Jones' defensive skills and Thome's lack thereof plus Jones can run well and has stolen 8 bags I am happier than I thought I would be with Jones.

Andruw Jones - G 63 / PA 229 / H 41 / HR 13 / R 25 / RBI 30 / SB 8 / BA .210
Jim Thome - G 65 / PA 192 / H 42 / HR 11 / R 24 / RBI 30 / BA .267
There's like a 70 point difference in OBP!
And 100 in Slugging!

Fun factoid of the day: the OPS difference between those two is roughly the same as that between Carlos Quentin and man-beast Mark Kotsay. :o:

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 07:18 PM
All I'm saying is that Jones is worth more than the $500,000 based on that fact alone. As I said in a post above, Jim wouldn't have been able to play the field which is something that both Jones and Kotsay can do which helps keep some of our guys fresh.

We could've signed all three - Thome as DH, Jonesay as backup OF and occasional DH. Or we coulda just re-signed Thome and Kotsay. Instead, they let Thome go, kept the two that couldn't hit and declared them the main part of a "rotating" DH.

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 07:22 PM
I sure hope not!! It's more or less 500K, LOL!!

M = thousand (Roman Numeral). It's used in the financial world.

Boondock Saint
07-20-2010, 07:23 PM
There's no way to prove that. I'm just going by what I know for a fact. I can think of two games for a fact that Andruw helped us win. One of those being a game in Toronto where it looked like we were dead to rights and the other a game against Seattle where it looked like the bullpen pissed away.

All I'm saying is that Jones is worth more than the $500,000 based on that fact alone. As I said in a post above, Jim wouldn't have been able to play the field which is something that both Jones and Kotsay can do which helps keep some of our guys fresh.

For the record, this doesn't mean I don't want Adam Dunn. I'd take him in a heartbeat over the combo we have now obviously.

That's an incredibly myopic and foolish way to look at things. You're essentially holding the fact that Thome hasn't played for us this year against him. What about all the game winning hits he's had for us over the last four years? The two game winning hits that Jones has this year trumps all of that? Wow. I guess absence really does make the heart go yonder.

Also, the vast majority of the games Kotsay has played in this year have been at DH. Kotsay could have very easily played defense on the days that one of the starting OF needed rest, so that kind of makes your point about getting the starters extra rest moot. The Sox don't need Kotsay and Jones to back up the outfield every game.

JermaineDye05
07-20-2010, 07:24 PM
We could've signed all three - Thome as DH, Jonesay as backup OF and occasional DH. Or we coulda just re-signed Thome and Kotsay. Instead, they let Thome go, kept the two that couldn't hit and declared them the main part of a "rotating" DH.

You lose a bullpen arm for that or Omar Vizquel, both something that the Sox have needed this year.

I don't think signing Kotsay AND Thome saves you anything. Once again you have a guy missing. Who gives Rios a break in CF? Juan Pierre? Or God forbid Mark Kotsay himself.

As it stands, I'm still not upset with the decision the team made on Thome. It hasn't hurt us to this point, so I don't see why we're complaining about it now.

JermaineDye05
07-20-2010, 07:29 PM
That's an incredibly myopic and foolish way to look at things. You're essentially holding the fact that Thome hasn't played for us this year against him. What about all the game winning hits he's had for us over the last four years? The two game winning hits that Jones has this year trumps all of that? Wow. I guess absence really does make the heart go yonder.

There's no way to prove that Thome's numbers would have been the same, better, or worse playing for the White Sox this year. As it stands, he's essentially produced as much as Kotsay and Jones. So I don't see the point in coming back to this subject in the middle of the season when the Sox are 2.5 games in first place without him after they were 4 games under .500 with him the year before.

I'm not denying that Thome did some great things with this team and certainly won us a handful of games. I just feel the team was better off going the route they did and it has worked out so far.

MVP Mark Kotsay
07-20-2010, 07:29 PM
There's no way to prove that. I'm just going by what I know for a fact. I can think of two games for a fact that Andruw helped us win. One of those being a game in Toronto where it looked like we were dead to rights and the other a game against Seattle where it looked like the bullpen pissed away.
There's no way to "prove" that having Albert Pujols would have won us any games, either, if you put it like that. :(:

Boondock Saint
07-20-2010, 07:32 PM
There's no way to prove that Thome's numbers would have been the same, better, or worse playing for the White Sox this year. As it stands, he's essentially produced as much as Kotsay and Jones. So I don't see the point in coming back to this subject in the middle of the season when the Sox are 2.5 games in first place without him after they were 4 games under .500 with him the year before.

I'm not denying that Thome did some great things with this team and certainly won us a handful of games. I just feel the team was better off going the route they did and it has worked out so far.

I think there's plenty of reason to talk about Jones vs. Thome when the biggest need that this team has is a left handed power hitter, and we had one, but gave him away so we could sign yet another backup outfielder.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 07:32 PM
M = thousand (Roman Numeral). It's used in the financial world.

You get out of here with your fancy education.

Brian26
07-20-2010, 07:32 PM
There's like a 70 point difference in OBP!
And 100 in Slugging!

Fun factoid of the day: the OPS difference between those two is roughly the same as that between Carlos Quentin and man-beast Mark Kotsay. :o:

:welcome:

goon
07-20-2010, 07:41 PM
I think there's plenty of reason to talk about Jones vs. Thome when the biggest need that this team has is a left handed power hitter, and we had one, but gave him away so we could sign yet another backup outfielder.

I can't really complain about Jones on this team. He's been decent offensively and a HUGE asset to OF depth, considering it gives Quentin time to rest... and be hurt. If we had Thome right now, not sure who our 4th OF would be, but probably wouldn't be close to what the Sox have in Jones, especially when you consider his salary is $500,000.

I like Thome, but ideally it would be nice to have a LF handed bat that can play 1b to spell Konerko. Knowing now that Viciedo would be called up, not sure if they ever would have signed Kotsay.

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 07:44 PM
You lose a bullpen arm for that or Omar Vizquel, both something that the Sox have needed this year.
Oh you mean that precious spot Randy Williams was holding? We could've easily cleared that for him (Actually, come to think of it, Kenny would have never done that). Besides, with Quentin's health in question, OF depth would not have killed us.

I don't think signing Kotsay AND Thome saves you anything. Once again you have a guy missing. Who gives Rios a break in CF? Juan Pierre? Or God forbid Mark Kotsay himself.
Pierre's glove is fine for CF, it's just his arm that's the problem but Pierre playing CF once in a while to give Rios break would not have been detrimental to us at all. Kotsay can handle the corners and if we needed a backup CF, Lillibridge could have played that part. Need a spot for Brent? Cut Nix loose.

As it stands, I'm still not upset with the decision the team made on Thome. It hasn't hurt us to this point, so I don't see why we're complaining about it now.
Because we are supposedly shopping for a middle-of-the-order bat, someone who has a stick good enough to DH. We sign Thome, there we have our DH. That's why it's upsetting people to hear we are looking for a bat when we could've gotten one cheaply in the offseason.

Boondock Saint
07-20-2010, 07:52 PM
Oh you mean that precious spot Randy Williams was holding? We could've easily cleared that for him (Actually, come to think of it, Kenny would have never done that). Besides, with Quentin's health in question, OF depth would not have killed us.


Pierre's glove is fine for CF, it's just his arm that's the problem but Pierre playing CF once in a while to give Rios break would not have been detrimental to us at all. Kotsay can handle the corners and if we needed a backup CF, Lillibridge could have played that part. Need a spot for Brent? Cut Nix loose.


Because we are supposedly shopping for a middle-of-the-order bat, someone who has a stick good enough to DH. We sign Thome, there we have our DH. That's why it's upsetting people to hear we are looking for a bat when we could've gotten one cheaply in the offseason.

:clap:

JermaineDye05
07-20-2010, 08:17 PM
Oh you mean that precious spot Randy Williams was holding? We could've easily cleared that for him (Actually, come to think of it, Kenny would have never done that). Besides, with Quentin's health in question, OF depth would not have killed us.


Pierre's glove is fine for CF, it's just his arm that's the problem but Pierre playing CF once in a while to give Rios break would not have been detrimental to us at all. Kotsay can handle the corners and if we needed a backup CF, Lillibridge could have played that part. Need a spot for Brent? Cut Nix loose.


Because we are supposedly shopping for a middle-of-the-order bat, someone who has a stick good enough to DH. We sign Thome, there we have our DH. That's why it's upsetting people to hear we are looking for a bat when we could've gotten one cheaply in the offseason.

I hated Randy Williams going into the season, I think everyone knows that. However, you get rid of him, that means more innings for either

A) Matt Thornton, a guy we don't need taxed more than he already was in 2009.
B) JJ Putz, a guy coming off elbow surgery who needed to be eased into the season.
C) Sergio Santos, a rookie with a electric stuff but he's only been pitching for about a year. So he needs to be eased in as well.
D) Tony Pena, he's already served as the long reliever on multiple occasions and saved our asses. However, had he pitched more over the course of the first half of the season, I have to imagine his arm would have fallen off.
E) Everyone's favorite reliever, Linebrink. Nothing more needs to be said here.

Jenks was left out because he's the closer and he only has the 9th ideally.

Having that extra guy in the bullpen, no matter how horrid he was, helps the rest of the guys in that pen. Now Randy was released because he was BAD. However, Williams wouldn't have been my choice for that pen anyways. I'm just saying that extra spot helps as it shares the load so you don't wind up taxing your other relievers.

With Quentin's health in question, OF depth would not have killed us? I don't get this. The mere fact that Carlos has trouble staying healthy is why we needed a defensive outfielder like Andruw. Probably why we needed MULTIPLE guys who could play the outfield.

Pierre's glove is NOT fine for CF. It just isn't. There's a reason why we kept Pods in LF as well.

Cutting Nix loose for Lillibridge is easy to say now. Were you ready to give Brent a shot at the roster after seeing his performance in 2009 at both the major league and minor league level? How about after he showed the same in spring training? Oh and for the record, Brent's only played a total of 13 games in CF.

The team did and still does need a LH power bat, but Jim Thome was not the way to go and I feel the team is better for it.

----
WSI milestone

10,000th post :gulp:

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 08:44 PM
I'm just saying that extra spot helps as it shares the load so you don't wind up taxing your other relievers.
True, you do have a point there. I guess Randy Williams being so freaking terrible made me forget about overtaxing bullpen. If Kenny acquired a real legit MLB reliever, yes, that spot should have been used for that extra arm.

With Quentin's health in question, OF depth would not have killed us? I don't get this. The mere fact that Carlos has trouble staying healthy is why we needed a defensive outfielder like Andruw. Probably why we needed MULTIPLE guys who could play the outfield.
I was referring to signing all three of Thome, Jones and Kotsay. Sorry about the confusion there.

Pierre's glove is NOT fine for CF. It just isn't. There's a reason why we kept Pods in LF as well.
Pierre's CF defense is suspect (IMHO, his speed makes up for it somewhat) but considering that we have a healthy work horse in Rios, Pierre would not have gotten much playing time in center which would not have screwed us over majorly. That's what I meant that his defense is fine. If he goes full time as a CF, then that's a completely different story but as a backup, he's a'ight.

Cutting Nix loose for Lillibridge is easy to say now. Were you ready to give Brent a shot at the roster after seeing his performance in 2009 at both the major league and minor league level? How about after he showed the same in spring training? Oh and for the record, Brent's only played a total of 13 games in CF.
As surprising as this may sound, I wanted both of them on this team because 1) they were cheap and 2) they were once hightly regarded prospects. Yeah, they were horrid but backups aren't expected to hit that much anyway. They provided defensive versatility at a nice price. Needless to say, I wasn't impressed with the Vizquel signing. Now, I am pleasantly surprised at it has worked out for us. Goes to show why I'm not the GM :tongue:

As for Brent's history at CF, Sox started playing him quite a bit at CF down in Charlotte when he first got there (18 games at center, 49 at short, 1 at second) so obviously they thought about giving him outfield duties at some point.

The team did and still does need a LH power bat, but Jim Thome was not the way to go and I feel the team is better for it.
To each to his own :shrug:


----
WSI milestone

10,000th post :gulp:
Congrats. FYI, I realize I came off as a massive d-bag in my last post. Sorry about that :redface:

FielderJones
07-20-2010, 08:48 PM
Those walks due matter.

:scratch: How so?


Andruw Jones - R 25
Jim Thome - R 24


How does getting on base and not scoring matter?

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 08:55 PM
How does getting on base and not scoring matter?
Keep in mind that Thome scored just as many runs in fewer plate appearances and hitting two fewer homeruns whilst stealing no bases. Jones also started about 10 more games than Thome did. Thome played 1/3 of his games as a sub. I'd say Thome was more productive than Jones.

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 09:52 PM
:scratch: How so?



How does getting on base and not scoring matter?

Do you seriously not understand the importance of OBP? At its very base level, not getting out > getting out.

As for runs scored, besides the chances argument that Pablo_Honey made, runs are also largely a factor of the people who hit behind you in a lineup and thus have little to do with an individual player.

PhillipsBubba
07-20-2010, 10:09 PM
Thome vs Kotsay is the real comparison to be made. That is the production we swapped Thome for.

There was talk in another thread about dumping Kotsay when Teahen comes back.

Although I'm not a big MK fan, I'd rather have him on the roster and dump Andruw Jones.

Jones is washed up and MK is far more versatile and better coming off the bench.

Craig Grebeck
07-21-2010, 07:58 AM
At what level of baseball do they teach you that walks aren't important? I'm curious. Maybe I quit too soon.

TDog
07-21-2010, 11:53 AM
M = thousand (Roman Numeral). It's used in the financial world.

I've seen MM for 2000 in movie copyright, but I've never seen 500M stand for half a million.

Gavin
07-21-2010, 12:11 PM
I've seen MM for 2000 in movie copyright, but I've never seen 500M stand for half a million.

Also, bear in mind, we're not in the financial world just because we're talking about money. We on a message board.

khan
07-21-2010, 12:22 PM
Also, bear in mind, we're not in the financial world just because we're talking about money. We on a message board.

Well, I work in the "financial world," and I've never seen "500M" used to represent 500,000. I HAVE seen "500K" used REGULARLY to represent 500,000, however.


In any case:

I can't believe that some posting here don't see the COST associated with having Kotsay, a crappy LH bat, which may lead to KW spending precious resources to replace him in the season.

I also can't believe that some posting here don't see the resources PRESERVED by having Thome as the LH bat in the roster. Beyond that, I can't believe that some here actually see Kotsay's production to be anywhere in the same universe as Thome's this season.

russ99
07-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Because we are supposedly shopping for a middle-of-the-order bat, someone who has a stick good enough to DH. We sign Thome, there we have our DH. That's why it's upsetting people to hear we are looking for a bat when we could've gotten one cheaply in the offseason.

Nope, we couldn't have gotten a left handed middle of the order bat in the offseason cheaply, which is why we don't have one.

We could have kept a 40 year old part-time player who's only contribution would be a few more homers than we have now for cheap.

Big, big difference.

I guess some people conveniently forget how bad Jim was the second half last year. IMO the Twins are getting the limited production they are from him solely because he plays part-time.

BadBobbyJenks
07-21-2010, 01:58 PM
Nope, we couldn't have gotten a left handed middle of the order bat in the offseason cheaply, which is why we don't have one.

We could have kept a 40 year old part-time player who's only contribution would be a few more homers than we have now for cheap.

Big, big difference.

I guess some people conveniently forget how bad Jim was the second half last year. IMO the Twins are getting the limited production they are from him solely because he plays part-time.

50 less at bats than Kotsay. :gah:

dickallen15
07-21-2010, 02:03 PM
Nope, we couldn't have gotten a left handed middle of the order bat in the offseason cheaply, which is why we don't have one.

We could have kept a 40 year old part-time player who's only contribution would be a few more homers than we have now for cheap.

Big, big difference.

I guess some people conveniently forget how bad Jim was the second half last year. IMO the Twins are getting the limited production they are from him solely because he plays part-time.

In his 125 2nd half ABs with White Sox he hit 9 homers and drove in 24. He only hit .240, but if that is so bad, what do you call Kotsay and Jones performance this season, and for that matter, the overall performance of White Sox DHs? As a group, they have been awful as most who have rotated to DH a few times haven't hit while DHing either.

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 02:14 PM
Nope, we couldn't have gotten a left handed middle of the order bat in the offseason cheaply, which is why we don't have one.
Then what does that make Jim Thome? An expensive right-handed middle of the order bat? Face it, he was there for us to sign at a cheap price but the Sox decided to catch some serious lightning in a bottle instead.

We could have kept a 40 year old part-time player who's only contribution would be a few more homers than we have now for cheap.
Right, because all those walks Thome gets are completely irrelevant.

I guess some people conveniently forget how bad Jim was the second half last year.
Oh gee, I really wonder why that is the case. (Hint: Definitely not because of Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay)

BTW, where is this "how bad Jim was the second half last year" stuff coming from? If you are referring to his August, that was just one month and even in that month, he still slugged .500.

IMO the Twins are getting the limited production they are from him solely because he plays part-time.
Nobody knows what his production would have been like full-time. Don't state it as if it were a fact.

ilsox7
07-21-2010, 02:23 PM
M = thousand (Roman Numeral). It's used in the financial world.

Yep. When I was in finance, M is what was used for 1,000 and MM for millions. K was never used.

kufram
07-21-2010, 02:33 PM
As much as I respect Jim Thome as a man and as a player the only reason I would like him to be on this team is to get him the World Series title he deserves. That said, his inability to run or play the field makes him too one dimensional to be what management wanted from the DH position.

It is easy and right to criticize the lack of production from the DH so far this year but we are in first place and the rotation it allows could yet prove to be of value before it's over. I have a feeling that the DH, whomever it proves to be... even if it is Mr. Kotsay and Mr. Jones, will have an important contribution to make to help the team over the following weeks.

Craig Grebeck
07-21-2010, 03:43 PM
Why even talk about Jim getting walks? The man is getting hits. He isn't batting .250.

khan
07-21-2010, 03:50 PM
As much as I respect Jim Thome as a man and as a player the only reason I would like him to be on this team is to get him the World Series title he deserves. That said, his inability to run or play the field makes him too one dimensional to be what management wanted from the DH position.
This is stupid, and makes no sense. Last I checked, the DH doesn't play the field. Moreover, Kotsay sucks as a hitter, and isn't all that good as a fielder, either.

It is easy and right to criticize the lack of production from the DH so far this year but we are in first place and the rotation it allows could yet prove to be of value before it's over. I have a feeling that the DH, whomever it proves to be... even if it is Mr. Kotsay and Mr. Jones, will have an important contribution to make to help the team over the following weeks.
And I have a feeling that KW will overpay for crap, further denuding a barren minor league system. This, despite the reality that he could have had Thome for cheap.

SephClone89
07-21-2010, 03:55 PM
That said, his inability to run or play the field makes him too one dimensional to be what management wanted from the DH position.


This is stupid, and makes no sense. Last I checked, the DH doesn't play the field. Moreover, Kotsay sucks as a hitter, and isn't all that good as a fielder, either.

Nice selective bolding there.

The OP is obviously referring to to the "DH position" not in the traditional sense but instead is referring to the current White Sox policy of rotation of players between first base, the outfield, and the designated hitter spot.

khan
07-21-2010, 04:08 PM
Nice selective bolding there.
Thank you. It enables me to illustrate with which parts of the previous post I disagree.

The OP is obviously referring to to the "DH position" not in the traditional sense but instead is referring to the current White Sox policy of rotation of players between first base, the outfield, and the designated hitter spot.

This is a fine fantasy, but the REALITY is that Kotsay IS getting the Lion's share of opportunities at DH. There is little "rotation" involved here. Therefore, as many of us stated this past offseason, the SOX would be better served to have an actual hitter as the "Designated Hitter," not a 4th/5th OF as the DH.

TheOldRoman
07-21-2010, 04:25 PM
And I have a feeling that KW will overpay for crap, further denuding a barren minor league system. This, despite the reality that he could have had Thome for cheap.Huh? So, which of the guys Kenny is going to potentially "overpay for" are crap? Dunn? Fielder? LaRoche? They are all considerably better, healthier and can play more frequently than Thome. How are those guy crap but you would be happy with Thome?

Well, I work in the "financial world," and I've never seen "500M" used to represent 500,000. I HAVE seen "500K" used REGULARLY to represent 500,000, however.I thought you were a personal trainer?:thinking:

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 04:37 PM
Huh? So, which of the guys Kenny is going to potentially "overpay for" are crap? Dunn? Fielder? LaRoche? They are all considerably better, healthier and can play more frequently than Thome. How are those guy crap but you would be happy with Thome?
Dunn and Fielder have already been established as long shots to be acquired through trades and there is no way Sox will pony up the dough to sign them when they hit FA. LaRoche bats right-handed and is NOT better than Thome. Both his plate discipline and power are either less than or equal to Thome. Anybody slightly better will cost us a major farmhand. Our farm system is thin and our trading chips (Hudson, Morel, Flowers) are too important to nearby future that parting with them is overpaying.

khan
07-21-2010, 04:41 PM
Huh? So, which of the guys Kenny is going to potentially "overpay for" are crap? Dunn? Fielder? LaRoche? They are all considerably better, healthier and can play more frequently than Thome. How are those guy crap but you would be happy with Thome?
While I agree that they are younger than Thome, I don't believe for a moment that Dunn or Fielder will be here, for various reasons. LaRoche shouldn't cost much, but then Thome would have cost NOTHING in trade.

Since the minor league system has little of value in it, my preference is/was that KW avoid denuding it further.

I thought you were a personal trainer?:thinking:
Since we're playing this game, yes, I do have a credential as a personal trainer. Why is this germane to the discussion?

TheOldRoman
07-21-2010, 04:44 PM
Dunn and Fielder have already been established as long shots to be acquired through trades and there is no way Sox will pony up the dough to sign them when they hit FA. LaRoche bats right-handed and is NOT better than Thome. Both his plate discipline and power are either less than or equal to Thome. Anybody slightly better will cost us a major farmhand. Our farm system is thin and our trading chips (Hudson, Morel, Flowers) are too important to nearby future that parting with them is overpaying.Both of those points are false. He is a second half hitter. His career line in the second half is .301/.363/.544. He is going to be able to play every day and can actually move. I would much rather have him than Thome.

And my question still stands. If we aren't getting any of the top guys, which "crappy" players are we going to overpay for?

kufram
07-21-2010, 04:45 PM
This is stupid, and makes no sense. Last I checked, the DH doesn't play the field. Moreover, Kotsay sucks as a hitter, and isn't all that good as a fielder, either.


And I have a feeling that KW will overpay for crap, further denuding a barren minor league system. This, despite the reality that he could have had Thome for cheap.


Yes, and I've read many of your ranting posts in the past against players that have since turned it around and proven you wrong. A little imagination is required to see what they're trying to do with the DH position this year and some will need to get past the one dimensional DH view at some point.

The benefits aren't as tangible as a few home runs, too often with no one on base, but that doesn't diminish their possible value..... rest for regulars, the ability to cover for TCQ's missed games, and good outfield defensive cover amongst them.

Better results from the plate by the DH would push this team over the top. Everyone knows that. I'm hearing important players saying that we have the guys to do the job. I'd rather take their advice than yours.

TheOldRoman
07-21-2010, 04:45 PM
Since we're playing this game, yes, I do have a credential as a personal trainer. Why is this germane to the discussion?It's not, I am just wondering. I remembered you saying that before.

I agree that it isn't likely we get Fielder or Dunn. So who is the crap we are going to overpay for?

BadBobbyJenks
07-21-2010, 04:50 PM
I'm hearing important players saying that we have the guys to do the job. I'd rather take their advice than yours.

Yep because you hear so often, "we can't do it, please get us help!"

kufram
07-21-2010, 04:52 PM
Yep because you hear so often, "we can't do it, please get us help!"


Well, I don't think PK would say it if he didn't believe it. I think he would just keep quiet.

khan
07-21-2010, 04:56 PM
Yes, and I've read many of your ranting posts in the past against players that have since turned it around and proven you wrong.
While I'm happy about the recent [and unprecedented] turn of events, the SOX are still under .500 vs. the Big Boy AL. The SOX still haven't won this year's World Series yet, because they don't award it to the best 30-or-so-days in a season.

A little imagination is required to see what they're trying to do with the DH position this year and some will need to get past the one dimensional DH view at some point.
Really? We need imagination to see that Kotsay hasn't gotten the lion's share of opportunities @ DH?

The benefits aren't as tangible as a few home runs, too often with no one on base, but that doesn't diminish their possible value.....
And this speaks more to the ability/inability of the guys ahead of the #5 hitter, not The Immortal Mark Kotsay. But then, Thome has more triples, HR, RBI, Runs, and BB than The Golden God Mark Kotsay, not "just a few home runs" more than Kotsay.

rest for regulars, the ability to cover for TCQ's missed games, and good outfield defensive cover amongst them.
Andruw Jones can do all of these things, especially the "good" outfield defensive cover. Kotsay isn't exactly above average defensively out there. Therefore, you reinforce the idea that Kotsay shouldn't be here in place of a superior LH bat.

Better results from the plate by the DH would push this team over the top. Everyone knows that. I'm hearing important players saying that we have the guys to do the job. I'd rather take their advice than yours.
Ah yes. The old, "You're-not-the manager/GM/a player-for-the-SOX,-so-you-shouldn't-have-an-opinion" argument. How fresh and original.

I mean, why have a White Sox board at all? Let's just take the SOX at their word, like children believing in the Tooth Fairy, right?

khan
07-21-2010, 05:01 PM
It's not, I am just wondering. I remembered you saying that before.

I agree that it isn't likely we get Fielder or Dunn. So who is the crap we are going to overpay for?

Here's my biggest worry, to tell you the truth:

The SOX have to give up a youngster who is unique in the SOX system to get a rental or only a marginal improvement. A Brent Morel or Dan Hudson, for example. This leaves the SOX's margin for error all the thinner going forward.

I'd rather that they didn't trade ANYONE, to tell you the truth, since I don't think this team is good enough to win it all. This, REGARDLESS of who they can reasonably add.

At the same time, I just have thought it to be folly to not have retained Thome [for FREE in terms of having to trade assets] instead of Kotsay, who may end up COSTING the SOX a piece or two.

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 05:06 PM
Both of those points are false. He is a second half hitter. His career line in the second half is .301/.363/.544. He is going to be able to play every day and can actually move. I would much rather have him than Thome.
Hmm, I checked his splits for each individual season and he is one truly messed up hitter. He's maintained a very uninspiring first half split and a very impressive second half split for many seasons now. I never knew this.

But anyway, you have a point but if we signed Thome, we would not have to have endured through first half of Kotsay/Jones, and we would be able to preserve our already thin farm system by not having to trade for LaRoche. My point still stands - we'd been better off with Thome than this "rotating" DH crap. If Thome's healthy, we get a LH bat who can hit for power and draw walks. If Thome got injured, we could have traded for LaRoche. No big deal there.

And my question still stands. If we aren't getting any of the top guys, which "crappy" players are we going to overpay for?
I don't know, ask Kenny. I don't personally think we will overpay for any guys but rather they will stand pat and go with this flawed team. The top guys available are simply too expensive that I will be upset if we got them. The other guys are just not good enough upgrades for Ozzie to overcome his love for Kotsay. That's just my 2 cents.

kufram
07-21-2010, 05:08 PM
Ah yes. The old, "You're-not-the manager/GM/a player-for-the-SOX,-so-you-shouldn't-have-an-opinion" argument. How fresh and original.

I mean, why have a White Sox board at all? Let's just take the SOX at their word, like children believing in the Tooth Fairy, right?


Excuse me.... at NO point have I said that you shouldn't have an opinion. I just disagree with you. There is a big difference

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 05:13 PM
Excuse me.... at NO point have I said that you shouldn't have an opinion. I just disagree with you. There is a big difference
Well, you did say you'd "rather take their advice" than his in this argument, which translates to "You are not a professional, you don't know what you are talking about." Maybe you meant it in a civil way, but I see that as telling the other to stop talking because you have the ultimate truth.

kufram
07-21-2010, 05:21 PM
Well, you did say you'd "rather take their advice" than his in this argument, which translates to "You are not a professional, you don't know what you are talking about." Maybe you meant it in a civil way, but I see that as telling the other to stop talking because you have the ultimate truth.


I see it as I've listened to opinions and I've chosen the one I think is best. Have you read the other guys posts? I'm not calling his opinions stupid like he has mine.. I just disagree with them.

Are you saying he doesn't act like he knows "the ultimate truth" and it is his?

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 05:26 PM
I see it as I've listened to opinions and I've chosen the one I think is best. Have you read the other guys posts? I'm not calling his opinions stupid like he has mine.. I just disagree with them.

Are you saying he doesn't act like he knows "the ultimate truth" and it is his?
Well, he does sound condescending in his post (something I'm guilty of doing quite often as well) so I can see where you are coming from, but I just don't think heavily biased sources of information such as the players and managers are a good way of going about supporting your point. I mean, it is nearly impossible to remove bias completely from anything, especially when it concerns sports; however, the Sox have been playing very well so it's natural for a team member to believe the team can go all the way. I wouldn't expect a player to come out and criticize the holes on the team when they are doing well, but the fact remains that Kenny needs to pursue another bat under the radar.

khan
07-21-2010, 05:31 PM
That said, his inability to run or play the field makes him too one dimensional to be what management wanted from the DH position.

This is stupid, and makes no sense. Last I checked, the DH doesn't play the field. Moreover, Kotsay sucks as a hitter, and isn't all that good as a fielder, either.
My apologies to you if you thought that my critique of MANAGEMENT'S idea as to what a DH should be was directed at you. However, I stand by my opinion that it was stupid, moronic, idiotic, myopic, and just plain baseball dumb to choose Mark-****ING-Kotsay as the primary Designated HITTER, when he can't hit.

In any case, you appear to agree with me:
Better results from the plate by the DH would push this team over the top. Everyone knows that. I'm hearing important players saying that we have the guys to do the job. I'd rather take their advice than yours.

I see it as I've listened to opinions and I've chosen the one I think is best. Have you read the other guys posts? I'm not calling his opinions stupid like he has mine.. I just disagree with them.

Are you saying he doesn't act like he knows "the ultimate truth" and it is his?
Again, I'm not calling YOU stupid, nor your opinion stupid. [Although you believing in a "rotating DH" that doesn't actually "rotate" is silly.]

I maintain that Kotsay shouldn't be in this team, because he isn't good enough at baseball. Or at a minimum, not better than other players already in the roster.

kufram
07-21-2010, 05:43 PM
Well, he does sound condescending in his post (something I'm guilty of doing quite often as well) so I can see where you are coming from, but I just don't think heavily biased sources of information such as the players and managers are a good way of going about supporting your point. I mean, it is nearly impossible to remove bias completely from anything, especially when it concerns sports; however, the Sox have been playing very well so it's natural for a team member to believe the team can go all the way. I wouldn't expect a player to come out and criticize the holes on the team when they are doing well, but the fact remains that Kenny needs to pursue another bat under the radar.

I'm not using the players and manager to support MY point. I am supporting theirs. Whilst it hasn't been wildly successful this year I believe the DH role of the future is closer to what KW and OG have tried to do this year than it is to the one dimensional, traditional DH. That is not to criticize players like Jim Thome. I think the role is changing and this is just the beginning of that.

I'd love another bat, preferably left-handed. But I don't think we HAVE to bring one in. If Beckham is coming round, which I'm not shocked if he is, HE can be the bat we need. I still don't think Kotsay will finish the season hitting at the average he has all year. It's quite possible that he will suddenly get everything falling in for hits. That doesn't make me a Kotsay acolyte.... he does put the ball in play. It is also possible that he won't be on the team in two weeks time and Teahen will be playing for his life.

What I love about baseball is the team element and I think this team has hung together and that is just based on what I see in the dugout shots and the way they interact. I could be wrong, but I don't see anyone off on their own.

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 05:56 PM
I'm not using the players and manager to support MY point. I am supporting theirs.
Oh okay...Sorry, I didn't bother to follow the entire argument because I got a bit lazy :redface:

I think the role is changing.
Yeah, and it's interesting to see more and more players demanding playing time on the field despite them being complete hacks out there or being too injury-prone for that.

I'd love another bat, preferably left-handed. But I don't think we HAVE to bring one in.
Oh I agree with this but the organization dug their own grave when they decided to let Thome go and failed to sign all the big name FAs (Not really their fault but they had no proper backup plan beside the "rotating" DH)

If Beckham is coming round, which I'm not shocked if he is, HE can be the bat we need. I still don't think Kotsay will finish the season hitting at the average he has all year. It's quite possible that he will suddenly get everything falling in for hits. That doesn't make me a Kotsay acolyte.... he does put the ball in play.
I don't think Beckham is the impact bat we need. He is a solid all-around player but his power leaves a bit to be desired to have an impact. And I am not a fan of Kotsay but I do wish he could come around and hit like he did last year with us. As for the bolded part, that can lead to a tad bit many GIDPs but he does occasionally ground out to drive in guys.

What I love about baseball is the team element and I think this team has hung together and that is just based on what I see in the dugout shots and the way they interact. I could be wrong, but I don't see anyone off on their own.
I'm sure Linebrink is feeling all the love :redneck Just kidding, this team looks so much more alive than it did at the beginning of the season.

kufram
07-21-2010, 06:16 PM
Oh okay...Sorry, I didn't bother to follow the entire argument because I got a bit lazy :redface:
Yeah, and it's interesting to see more and more players demanding playing time on the field despite them being complete hacks out there or being too injury-prone for that.



Yes, I can see that point. Don't get me started on the lack of basic skills by some players. I'm from a different age when every player was expected to be able to lay down a bunt, field a position, etc. Some of the throws that are made from the outfield, albeit with good arms, are downright embarrassing.

The slugger will always have a place in baseball but I'd rather watch a guy that can hit, run, catch the ball, and play smart.

russ99
07-21-2010, 06:17 PM
Then what does that make Jim Thome? An expensive right-handed middle of the order bat? Face it, he was there for us to sign at a cheap price but the Sox decided to catch some serious lightning in a bottle instead.

Right, because all those walks Thome gets are completely irrelevant.

Oh gee, I really wonder why that is the case. (Hint: Definitely not because of Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay)

BTW, where is this "how bad Jim was the second half last year" stuff coming from? If you are referring to his August, that was just one month and even in that month, he still slugged .500.

Nobody knows what his production would have been like full-time. Don't state it as if it were a fact.

Nobody knows his production full-time either, but everyone assumes we'd get 2006 Thome, which wouldn't happen. He's 39 years old at the end of his career. Agreed, he's putting together a nice season (probably his last) for the Twins but let's not assume he's something he is not.

Truth is if Kenny had the budget, we wouldn't have been stuck with Kotsay and Jones or Thome and Jones or Thome and Kotsay, we'd have a younger, more effective hitter in the lineup who can produce full-time and live up to what we expect from a 5th place hitter. This was the point I was making, and have made since spring training.

As for Thome last year, you obviously put far too high emphasis in slugging percentage. He struck out a lot, and when he did walk, how many times did he score and how many times was he in a DP with Konerko? Slugging percentage doesn't mean much when he can't contribute to the offense except homering (which inflates SLG) and driving in occasional runs.

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 06:35 PM
Nobody knows his production full-time either, but everyone assumes we'd get 2006 Thome,
A 2009 Thome is still better than whatever craptastic numbers Jonesay duo can provide us with. I never stated I wanted 2006 Thome back and I don't think anyone else is saying that either (If someone were, he/she is simply smoking some good ****).

Truth is if Kenny had the budget, we wouldn't have been stuck with Kotsay and Jones or Thome and Jones or Thome and Kotsay, we'd have a younger, more effective hitter in the lineup who can produce full-time and live up to what we expect from a 5th place hitter. This was the point I was making, and have made since spring training.
Yes, Kenny had to work within a budget which limited us from signing big name guys but Thome came at a very affordable price. We had the money to pursue Matsui or Damon. Why we didn't sign Thome baffled me and still confuses me. Was he prone to injuries? Yeah, but we still would have had at least Kotsay to cover the DH when Thome goes down or is not available. If Ozzie didn't like the fact Thome couldn't take field, then keep him as a pinch hitter. That worked out great for the Twins.

As for the bolded part, I'm a bit slow and I forget things easily so I'm confused as to what you are saying there. Do you mean to say that because of limited budget, it made sense to let Thome go and have the Jonesay duo? If so, my response is written above. If not, what did you mean by that?

As for Thome last year, you obviously put far too high emphasis in slugging percentage. He struck out a lot, and when he did walk, how many times did he score and how many times was he in a DP with Konerko? Slugging percentage doesn't mean much when he can't contribute to the offense except homering (which inflates SLG) and driving in occasional runs.
You know what, I'm not even gonna argue this one because there is no end to this debate of Old school vs. Statheads. It will just be a constant back and forth argument going nowhere.

Tragg
07-21-2010, 07:06 PM
Truth is if Kenny had the budget, we wouldn't have been stuck with Kotsay and Jones or Thome and Jones or Thome and Kotsay, we'd have a younger, more effective hitter in the lineup who can produce full-time and live up to what we expect from a 5th place hitter. This was the point I was making, and have made since spring training.
.Kotsay is on this team, not because of budget, but because Guillen insisted on it. He was signed early in the offseason. Even worse I Guillen's refusal to cut his loses and accept that he made yet another poor personnel decision.
Had Williams not signed Kotsay or wasted money on teahen we might have a real DH

Craig Grebeck
07-21-2010, 07:32 PM
Nobody knows his production full-time either, but everyone assumes we'd get 2006 Thome, which wouldn't happen. He's 39 years old at the end of his career. Agreed, he's putting together a nice season (probably his last) for the Twins but let's not assume he's something he is not.

Truth is if Kenny had the budget, we wouldn't have been stuck with Kotsay and Jones or Thome and Jones or Thome and Kotsay, we'd have a younger, more effective hitter in the lineup who can produce full-time and live up to what we expect from a 5th place hitter. This was the point I was making, and have made since spring training.

As for Thome last year, you obviously put far too high emphasis in slugging percentage. He struck out a lot, and when he did walk, how many times did he score and how many times was he in a DP with Konerko? Slugging percentage doesn't mean much when he can't contribute to the offense except homering (which inflates SLG) and driving in occasional runs.
Perhaps people assume we'd get 2010 Thome, which is pretty damn good production.

russ99
07-21-2010, 09:32 PM
Kotsay is on this team, not because of budget, but because Guillen insisted on it. He was signed early in the offseason. Even worse I Guillen's refusal to cut his loses and accept that he made yet another poor personnel decision.
Had Williams not signed Kotsay or wasted money on teahen we might have a real DH

Kotsay's making $1.5M and was signed as a bench player, not as the DH.

links:
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/5452729126
http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/11/sox_sign_jones_as_the_offseaso.html

Besides, I don't see that being the difference in budget to acquire a solid middle of the order hitter.

My point being, Kenny didn't go out and spend the cash necessary to get a real DH, so Ozzie's stuck with who he has.

soltrain21
07-21-2010, 09:43 PM
Kotsay's making $1.5M and was signed as a bench player, not as the DH.

links:
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/5452729126
http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/11/sox_sign_jones_as_the_offseaso.html

Besides, I don't see that being the difference in budget to acquire a solid middle of the order hitter.

My point being, Kenny didn't go out and spend the cash necessary to get a real DH, so Ozzie's stuck with who he has.

Ozzie said he didn't want Thome because he wouldn't be able to find at-bats for him. Ozzie wanted Kotsay for the EXACT role he is playing.

Try again.

russ99
07-22-2010, 06:46 AM
Ozzie said he didn't want Thome because he wouldn't be able to find at-bats for him. Ozzie wanted Kotsay for the EXACT role he is playing.

Try again.

Ozzie saying that has no direct correlation with Kotsay as DH, it was because Jim can't play any other position, and he and Kenny didn't want a full-time DH.

Find me a quote where Ozzie's said that Kotsay is the DH because of his talent, or any other one that supports the ridiculous notion that Ozzie's player evaluation leads to Kotsay starting over any other player.

IMO, he's just using the roster as he sees fit, had Jones or Nix or any other rotating DH candidate worked out, they would have gotten more playing time.

Granted, the idea is flawed, since we were trying to squeeze 3-4 marginal players into the DH position instead of 2 good ones.

Hitmen77
07-26-2010, 04:05 PM
Ozzie said he didn't want Thome because he wouldn't be able to find at-bats for him. Ozzie wanted Kotsay for the EXACT role he is playing.

Try again.

Ozzie is still glad he has Kotsay instead of Thome:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2533008,adam-dunn-white-sox-trade-26.article

russ99
07-26-2010, 04:13 PM
Ozzie is still glad he has Kotsay instead of Thome:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2533008,adam-dunn-white-sox-trade-26.article

LOL. Mark Kotsay was not mentioned at all in the article.

Craig Grebeck
07-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Okay. He's glad he doesn't have Thome. Let's see, who is the player who has received the most ABs at DH? Hm. Damn. I don't know. Kotsay?

Hitmen77
07-26-2010, 04:43 PM
Okay. He's glad he doesn't have Thome. Let's see, who is the player who has received the most ABs at DH? Hm. Damn. I don't know. Kotsay?

Well, he is our DH tonight. :teach:

mjmcend
07-26-2010, 05:59 PM
Ozzie is still glad he has Kotsay instead of Thome:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2533008,adam-dunn-white-sox-trade-26.article

Glad to see he is as stubborn as ever.

Slappy
07-26-2010, 06:01 PM
Nothing would make my summer like seeing Dunn slip away into the Tiger's grasp. :rolleyes: