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View Full Version : KW: No deals on horizon for Sox


doublem23
07-20-2010, 08:28 AM
Obviously, this means by tonight's game, we'll have a complete new starting 8.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5393729

beasly213
07-20-2010, 08:49 AM
Maybe…But I don’t think any major moves are coming because really…there isn’t room on Ozzies team. I would love Dunn to play here but you have Jones and Kotsay…both guys Ozzie loves to play. I don’t love them but he does and this is his team.

soltrain21
07-20-2010, 09:10 AM
Maybe…But I don’t think any major moves are coming because really…there isn’t room on Ozzies team. I would love Dunn to play here but you have Jones and Kotsay…both guys Ozzie loves to play. I don’t love them but he does and this is his team.

If we get Dunn and Ozzie gets pissed because of Mark Kotsay then that would be a terrible, terrible thing.

RedHeadPaleHoser
07-20-2010, 09:14 AM
Good for KW. Say nothing, tell them nothing. If we DO nothing, I'll be a little concerned.....but I can't decide if pitching is a bigger question mark than the lumber for the 2nd half.

Harry Chappas
07-20-2010, 09:17 AM
If Dunn is on the team it means that either Quentin or Beckham are gone along with Hudson. There isn't a package of minor leaguers that could net Dunn, so we'd have to add a key component from the current roster. I see this, at best, as a lateral move in the present and potentially awful move for the future considering how hard it might be to sign him beyond this year.

All things considered, I'd much rather they go after one of the many slightly above average names that would provide improvement over Kotsay while keeping the current roster more or less intact.

Tragg
07-20-2010, 09:28 AM
If we get Dunn and Ozzie gets pissed because of Mark Kotsay then that would be a terrible, terrible thing.

Ozzie wont' get pissed....that will give him is out. Dunn wasn't on the team when he chose Kotsay. Now, the roster will have changed.

I do wish he'd use Viceido. I know he's a poor hitter, but use him as a DH.

The Immigrant
07-20-2010, 10:23 AM
I do wish he'd use Viceido. I know he's a poor hitter, but use him as a DH.

Do you mean he's a poor fielder or do you want a poor hitter to be our DH? 'Cause, you know, we've already got one of those.

hawkjt
07-20-2010, 10:33 AM
Kotsay is hitting over .320 his last 15 games or so, I believe. I guess he will never satisfy some fans on here. We can trade away some good young players and get a guy that comes in and hits like Alex Rios did last year after the deadline.....like .210.

I still am not convinced that these deadline deals really make the difference. Maybe once in awhile but Geoff Blum type deals work as often as the CC Sabathia deals.

I look for possible smaller deals to get a lefty reliever and maybe a lefty bat. But Kenny will not trade Beckham,Viciedo,Hudson...so who does that leave. If a team was smart they would go for Lillibridge as their small deal...the kid can be a better blum for a team.

russ99
07-20-2010, 10:42 AM
As he was last year, Kenny's flying under the radar.

It's obvious Washington wants too much for Dunn, so he airs this publicly to put pressure on them. We'll see how desperate they get to deal him by the 31st. Quentin/Beckham is not going to go in this deal for a 3 month rental, and rightly so.

And if you seriously think Ozzie would start Kotsay over Dunn, or get pissed with the club acquiring such an upgrade, you need to have your head examined. Kotsay would still get spot starts, but he'd be on the bench where he belongs.

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 10:45 AM
General comment...it sure is fun having KW as our GM. :gulp:

He definitely keeps it interesting, and has developed a pretty intriguing reputation around baseball.

We've come a long way from Schueler & Lemont.

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 10:47 AM
As he was last year, Kenny's flying under the radar.

It's obvious Washington wants too much for Dunn, so he airs this publicly to put pressure on them. We'll see how desperate they get to deal him by the 31st. Quentin/Beckham is not going to go in this deal for a 3 month rental, and rightly so.

And if you seriously think Ozzie would start Kotsay over Dunn, or get pissed with the club acquiring such an upgrade, you need to have your head examined. Kotsay would still get spot starts, but he'd be on the bench where he belongs.

2 draft picks > what we have to offer

Dunn has not interest in DHing....I just don't see this happening.

Coops4Aces
07-20-2010, 10:55 AM
2 draft picks > what we have to offer

Dunn has not interest in DHing....I just don't see this happening.

Just want to point out that it doesn't matter what Adam Dunn wants or is interested in.

RedHeadPaleHoser
07-20-2010, 10:57 AM
We've come a long way from Schueler & Lemont.

Death would've been an improvement over those two.

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 10:59 AM
Death would've been an improvement over those two.

Can't trade Scott Ruffcorn...we're standing pat!

We have Esteban Beltre at SS (year Guillen was injured), no need to make a move!

Ex-Chicagoan
07-20-2010, 11:07 AM
Can't trade Scott Ruffcorn...we're standing pat!

We have Esteban Beltre at SS (year Guillen was injured), no need to make a move!

Jeez. Don't say their names three times, or they may appear...

beasly213
07-20-2010, 11:09 AM
Kotsay is hitting over .320 his last 15 games or so, I believe. I guess he will never satisfy some fans on here. We can trade away some good young players and get a guy that comes in and hits like Alex Rios did last year after the deadline.....like .210.

I still am not convinced that these deadline deals really make the difference. Maybe once in awhile but Geoff Blum type deals work as often as the CC Sabathia deals.

I look for possible smaller deals to get a lefty reliever and maybe a lefty bat. But Kenny will not trade Beckham,Viciedo,Hudson...so who does that leave. If a team was smart they would go for Lillibridge as their small deal...the kid can be a better blum for a team.

A lot of the time these deals are made to put teams over the hump to make the playoffs or to add depth to the roster. One player will very rarely make you win the World Series but very often one player will help you make the playoffs. CC Sabathia is a great example of that.

Domeshot17
07-20-2010, 11:17 AM
Kotsay is hitting over .320 his last 15 games or so, I believe. I guess he will never satisfy some fans on here. We can trade away some good young players and get a guy that comes in and hits like Alex Rios did last year after the deadline.....like .210.

I still am not convinced that these deadline deals really make the difference. Maybe once in awhile but Geoff Blum type deals work as often as the CC Sabathia deals.

I look for possible smaller deals to get a lefty reliever and maybe a lefty bat. But Kenny will not trade Beckham,Viciedo,Hudson...so who does that leave. If a team was smart they would go for Lillibridge as their small deal...the kid can be a better blum for a team.

Find the numbers please, because here is what I am seeing:

He is hitting 256 in July with a 626 OPS
He is hitting 188 since the All Star Break
He was hitting 230 with a 709 OPS pre ASB

LH offensive production is the biggest hole on this team

khan
07-20-2010, 11:21 AM
Kotsay is hitting over .320 his last 15 games or so, I believe. I guess he will never satisfy some fans on here. We can trade away some good young players and get a guy that comes in and hits like Alex Rios did last year after the deadline.....like .210.
OK, let's look at the facts:

In Kotsay's last 15 game appearances, he has had 51 AB. In those 51 AB, The Great Mark Kotsay has RAKED 14 hits. His "MASSIVE batting average" in that time would therefore be 14/51= .274. This is HARDLY anywhere near the .320 number you cite.

http://stats.chron.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=5846&page=logs

I'll grant that Kotsay had improved his numbers in the last 15 games. But let's not make it out to be poor Mark Kotsay getting persecuted or anything like that. He still kinda sucks at baseball, ESPECIALLY at his current role in THIS team.

I still am not convinced that these deadline deals really make the difference. Maybe once in awhile but Geoff Blum type deals work as often as the CC Sabathia deals.

I look for possible smaller deals to get a lefty reliever and maybe a lefty bat. But Kenny will not trade Beckham,Viciedo,Hudson...so who does that leave. If a team was smart they would go for Lillibridge as their small deal...the kid can be a better blum for a team.
I can agree that the deadline deal often is ineffective at improving the team. The 2008 team didn't win the 163rd game BECAUSE OF Griffey, so much as it was the fault of minnesota's stupid 3rd base coach for sending the runner, for example. Nor did the 2005 team win BECAUSE OF blum.

With THIS team, I don't see an available player that would make the SOX better than the yankees, red sawx, or rays. Therefore, it would be stupid to FURTHER denude the minor league system for a team that simply isn't good enough.

I'd actually advocate KW either standing pat, or trying to make a waiver pickup, as he did with Rios a year ago.

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 11:25 AM
Just want to point out that it doesn't matter what Adam Dunn wants or is interested in.

He does as far as signing him to a long term deal goes.

We have to offer more value than the 2 draft picks they will receive if/when he goes FA. If he's not interested in DHing, than we have to trade > than the 2 draft picks for 2 months of his services.

doublem23
07-20-2010, 11:28 AM
A lot of the time these deals are made to put teams over the hump to make the playoffs or to add depth to the roster. One player will very rarely make you win the World Series but very often one player will help you make the playoffs. CC Sabathia is a great example of that.

True, but also teams that are generally buyers in at the trade deadline are already pretty well rounded teams. The Sox have played well recently, but if you can't see there is a gaping hole at DH on this team, I don't know what to tell you.

We could really use 1 more bat.

Moses_Scurry
07-20-2010, 11:31 AM
I think Williams will make his splash after the trade deadline with another waiver wire pickup (like Rios last year, but less expensive). Since he doesn't have much prospect-wise to give up, he'll probably target some veteran from a team just trying to shed his salary. I have no idea who that would be though.

Noneck
07-20-2010, 11:34 AM
I think Williams will make his splash after the trade deadline with another waiver wire pickup (like Rios last year, but less expensive). Since he doesn't have much prospect-wise to give up, he'll probably target some veteran from a team just trying to shed his salary. I have no idea who that would be though.

Wavier deals are tougher when in 1st place. Teams below have a tendency to block.

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 11:34 AM
Jeez. Don't say their names three times, or they may appear...

Robin Ventura, Robin Ventura, Robin Ventura

Harold Baines, Harold Baines, Harold Baines

:cool:

Dibbs
07-20-2010, 11:37 AM
Kotsay is hitting over .320 his last 15 games or so, I believe. I guess he will never satisfy some fans on here. We can trade away some good young players and get a guy that comes in and hits like Alex Rios did last year after the deadline.....like .210.

I am pretty sure he is not, but I always get a kick out of selective stats. How about we try this: Kotsay is batting .227 with an OPS of .683 with 19 RBI in over 200 at-bats ON THE YEAR. He is never going to get better as his career is pretty much done. We need a bat in this lineup.

Coops4Aces
07-20-2010, 11:54 AM
He does as far as signing him to a long term deal goes.

We have to offer more value than the 2 draft picks they will receive if/when he goes FA. If he's not interested in DHing, than we have to trade > than the 2 draft picks for 2 months of his services.

You aren't making sense. The position he would play for the Sox has no impact on this trade. We wouldn't sign him long-term anyways.

Zisk77
07-20-2010, 11:59 AM
Can't trade Scott Ruffcorn...we're standing pat!

We have Esteban Beltre at SS (year Guillen was injured), no need to make a move!

Hey but he did pull they trigger...and got Dale Sveum (Ozzie Smith asked to be traded because of Royce Clayton but we couldn't do that).

When Ozzie Guillen got hurt we still had Grebeck but than Randy Johnson gave the little hurt a big hurt with aslider to the foot and we were done.

Bobby Thigpen
07-20-2010, 12:04 PM
I am pretty sure he is not, but I always get a kick out of selective stats. How about we try this: Kotsay is batting .227 with an OPS of .683 with 19 RBI in over 200 at-bats ON THE YEAR. He is never going to get better as his career is pretty much done. We need a bat in this lineup.
Not sticking up for Mark Kotsay, but they did throw that stat up last night during his first at bat.

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 12:11 PM
You aren't making sense. The position he would play for the Sox has no impact on this trade. We wouldn't sign him long-term anyways.

Then I revert to my original point, I don't think we have prospects worth more than the 2 draft picks Nats will get, and I don't think it's worth it for a 2-3 month "rental" if we are not going to re-sign him.

DirtySox
07-20-2010, 12:11 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
#WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox) not on Fielder - don't like $$$, no match given #Brewers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Brewers)' need for starting pitching. Also not on Berkman. Focus still Dunn. #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB)

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 12:12 PM
Hey but he did pull they trigger...and got Dale Sveum (Ozzie Smith asked to be traded because of Royce Clayton but we couldn't do that).

When Ozzie Guillen got hurt we still had Grebeck but than Randy Johnson gave the little hurt a big hurt with aslider to the foot and we were done.

Schueler's lack of response to the Guillen and Ventura injuries killed us in the 90's.

thomas35forever
07-20-2010, 12:13 PM
I'm not willing to give up Beckham or Quentin in a trade for Dunn. Both players are part of the future of this club (maybe Quentin to a lesser extent given his injury history) and dealing either one could come back to bite us. Good for Kenny for sticking his ground.

Coops4Aces
07-20-2010, 12:13 PM
Then I revert to my original point, I don't think we have prospects worth more than the 2 draft picks Nats will get, and I don't think it's worth it for a 2-3 month "rental" if we are not going to re-sign him.

And we agree 100% on that one.

dickallen15
07-20-2010, 12:54 PM
Not sticking up for Mark Kotsay, but they did throw that stat up last night during his first at bat.

So what, he's batting 5th and not producing runs. He's not driving anyone in, he's not scoring many. He's a guy with not much power who doesn't drive in runs and doesn't get on base all that much and really cannot run anymore for some reason usually hitting 5th in the line-up. Its one area KW can make a massive upgrade to this team.

TDog
07-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Kotsay is hitting over .320 his last 15 games or so, I believe. I guess he will never satisfy some fans on here. We can trade away some good young players and get a guy that comes in and hits like Alex Rios did last year after the deadline.....like .210.

...

Rios hit .199 for the Sox last year after hitting .264 for Toronto. If last year's Rios played like this year's Rios, the Sox probaby win the division. He only had nine RBIs in 41 games, and three of them came in one game after the Sox were eliminated. The Sox would have had a better chance last season if Kotsay or Wise had been playing center every day.

But this year, Rios could be putting together the best season of his career. Kotsay, Beckham and Ramirez have been hitting well after getting off to terrible starts. Konerko is having a great season. Vizquel is playing better than he has since his Indians days. The starting pitching has been great, even after losing Peavy. The bullpen is deep and hasn't been overworked the way the Tigers and Twins bullpens have been.

Right now, I don't see any room on this team for Teahen (I have to be wondering what he is thinking watching what has happened to his team since he went down). Obviously, you can always make room for a solid hitter. Last year, the Sox disabled Wise to make room for Rios, and it seemed like a great idea at the time, even to people who didn't hate Wise.

But it's a matter of what you would be giving up. The Sox gave up nothing, really, for Rios last year. I don't see the same opportunity arising this year.

If the Sox could trade Teahen to upgrade, it would be an ideal. The contract extension actually makes him more marketable. Not having played since May, he won't be part of a big trade, though.

It isn't like the White Sox are that desperate despite what most fans believe.

kittle42
07-20-2010, 01:01 PM
It isn't like the White Sox are that desperate despite what most fans believe.

For a hitter? They aren't, but they should be.

Dibbs
07-20-2010, 01:08 PM
Kotsay, Beckham and Ramirez have been hitting well after getting off to terrible starts.

:scratch: Have you watched any of the games? Kotsay is not hitting the ball well. He is not getting timely hits. He is not even hitting the ball hard at people with any regularity. He has 7 RBIs combined in June and July from the DH spot. With the risk of sounding like Bill Walton, Kotsay is easily one of the worst regular DHs in the history of the game.

balke
07-20-2010, 01:14 PM
:scratch: Have you watched any of the games? Kotsay is not hitting the ball well. He is not getting timely hits. He is not even hitting the ball hard at people with any regularity. He has 7 RBIs combined in June and July from the DH spot. With the risk of sounding like Bill Walton, Kotsay is easily one of the worst regular DHs in the history of the game.

Small sample size - Jones has hit well lately. Kotsay started to hit early in July and hasn't since IIRC. He's hitting .270 over the past 28 days - but just .200 over the past 14 days.

Dibbs
07-20-2010, 01:42 PM
Small sample size - Jones has hit well lately. Kotsay started to hit early in July and hasn't since IIRC. He's hitting .270 over the past 28 days - but just .200 over the past 14 days.

My point is it doesn't matter what sample size you take from Kotsay. He is not, and never will be an effective hitter again in major league baseball. Anyone who thinks it is a good idea to DH him regularly shouldn't be involved in baseball. I could care less if someone pulls a stat out of their behind and says he hit .300 over the last blah blah blah.

sullythered
07-20-2010, 01:45 PM
My point is it doesn't matter what sample size you take from Kotsay. He is not, and never will be an effective hitter again in major league baseball. Anyone who thinks it is a good idea to DH him regularly shouldn't be involved in baseball. I could care less if someone pulls a stat out of their behind and says he hit .300 over the last blah blah blah.

You could? Because I couldn't.:cool:

TDog
07-20-2010, 02:01 PM
:scratch: Have you watched any of the games? Kotsay is not hitting the ball well. He is not getting timely hits. He is not even hitting the ball hard at people with any regularity. He has 7 RBIs combined in June and July from the DH spot. With the risk of sounding like Bill Walton, Kotsay is easily one of the worst regular DHs in the history of the game.

And Kotsay this year is still hitting better than Rios did last year after coming to the White Sox. There is no guarantee that replacing Kotsay with a better hitter will get better results.

I don't believe the White Sox consider Kotsay nearly the problem that many of the fans do.

kittle42
07-20-2010, 02:04 PM
And Kotsay this year is still hitting better than Rios did last year after coming to the White Sox. There is no guarantee that replacing Kotsay with a better hitter will get better results.

Hmm...that is really, really bad logic.

I don't believe the White Sox consider Kotsay nearly the problem that many of the fans do.

And that's part of the problem.

DirtySox
07-20-2010, 02:06 PM
Hmm...that is really, really bad logic.



And that's part of the problem.


It's terrible terrible terrible logic. We should avoid getting a real hitter, because there is a chance he could not live up to expectations!

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 02:10 PM
And Kotsay this year is still hitting better than Rios did last year after coming to the White Sox. There is no guarantee that replacing Kotsay with a better hitter will get better results.

I don't believe the White Sox consider Kotsay nearly the problem that many of the fans do.

There is no guarantee on anything in life. If the Cardinals trade us Pujols, he could get hit by a bus on the way to park and end up in a coma. Even then he still might be better hitter than Kotsay. However, you play the odds and those odds say that any of the names being mentioned from Dunn and Fielder down to LaRoche and Scott would likely be much better players than Kotsay due to their respective track records.

And if the White Sox don't see the DH position as place where they could upgrade, then they are quite dumb.

FielderJones
07-20-2010, 02:12 PM
It's terrible terrible terrible logic. We should avoid getting a real hitter, because there is a chance he could not live up to expectations!

It's not a matter of avoidance. It's a matter of not overpaying. If the Nats say the price for Dunn is Beckham and/or Hudson, take it or leave it, then I would support Kenny for saying "leave it".

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 02:14 PM
It's not a matter of avoidance. It's a matter of not overpaying. If the Nats say the price for Dunn is Beckham and/or Hudson, take it or leave it, then I would support Kenny for saying "leave it".

And that is fine since that includes a cost-benefit analysis, but that doesn't mean that Kotsay is still not a problem at DH.

DirtySox
07-20-2010, 02:17 PM
It's not a matter of avoidance. It's a matter of not overpaying. If the Nats say the price for Dunn is Beckham and/or Hudson, take it or leave it, then I would support Kenny for saying "leave it".

And I would agree with you on that. TDog's argument mentions nothing in regards to overpaying though. I'm firmly in favor of going after a cheaper option, IE LaRoche.

FielderJones
07-20-2010, 02:22 PM
And that is fine since that includes a cost-benefit analysis, but that doesn't mean that Kotsay is still not a problem at DH.

I agree that Kotsay is not a good DH. The real question is, can the Sox, as currently constructed, get to the postseason. My opinion is yes.

Once you're in the postseason, anything can happen. It's a very small sample size. Good hitters can run into cold streaks (see Rodriguez, Alex), and marginal journeymen can come up big (see Blum, Geoff).

doublem23
07-20-2010, 02:24 PM
I agree that Kotsay is not a good DH. The real question is, can the Sox, as currently constructed, get to the postseason. My opinion is yes.

Once you're in the postseason, anything can happen. It's a very small sample size. Good hitters can run into cold streaks (see Rodriguez, Alex), and marginal journeymen can come up big (see Blum, Geoff).

I would prefer not to depend on marginal journeymen coming up big.

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 02:32 PM
I agree that Kotsay is not a good DH. The real question is, can the Sox, as currently constructed, get to the postseason. My opinion is yes.

Once you're in the postseason, anything can happen. It's a very small sample size. Good hitters can run into cold streaks (see Rodriguez, Alex), and marginal journeymen can come up big (see Blum, Geoff).

But which one is more likely? Which one gives you the best odds to win?

And for that matter which one gives you the best odds to get to the playoffs? I agree that the Sox could get to the playoffs without any changes due to the overall crappiness of our division, but getting a better DH would improve those odds.

However, I agree with you that it would be a bad idea to screw our future and/or our present (i.e Beckham or Hudson) to acquire a bat like Dunn or Fielder. I think it is mistake to get them because even with either one of those players, I don't think we are the favorites to win the WS. My preferred course of action is to acquire an upgrade over Kotsay that won't break the bank (LaRoche) to help the offense and make it more likely to get into the playoffs. Then, if we make it, hope like hell Mark, John, and Gavin pitch lights out. They certainly are capable of doing it, and if they get hot at the right time, we have a shot.

october23sp
07-20-2010, 03:23 PM
I don't want to give anyone that has started most of our games to get Dunn, except Kotsay. If they are asking for Beckham/TCQ, we will actually lose a bat.

TDog
07-20-2010, 03:51 PM
It's not a matter of avoidance. It's a matter of not overpaying. If the Nats say the price for Dunn is Beckham and/or Hudson, take it or leave it, then I would support Kenny for saying "leave it".

This is a big part of what I was getting at. It isn't a question of trading Kotsay for Dunn or Fielder, something I am sure the White Sox would do, although neither plays first or the outfield as well as Kotsay. You're not going to trade Kotsay for either even if you throw in Teahen and scandalous pictures with which to blackmail another general manager.

The White Sox management built this team, and it's a first place team that is stronger in some areas and weaker in others. They invested most heavily in pitching and Rios. Unfortunately, Peavy went down, but pitching remains the strength. Rios is having a great season, and the offense isn't nearly as you would believe by listening to some fans.

The fact is, if you get to the postseason, it's the teams with the best pitching that are the scariest. A couple of weeks after a Cubs fan I worked with in 2005 was hassling me about the White Sox being the biggest chokers in the history of baseball, the White Sox were in the middle of one of baseball's most impressive postseason runs, due in large part to superior pitching.

The White Sox are in a position now where they might take on more salary, but I don't see them giving up any pieces of the current major league team, and I don't see them letting another team raid their farm system for the promise of a hitter.

Dibbs
07-20-2010, 04:31 PM
The fact is, if you get to the postseason, it's the teams with the best pitching that are the scariest.

The Atlanta Braves always had the best pitching in the 90s, but only won one title. You need pitching, defense and offense. We need a DH, bad. It doesn't have to be Dunn or Fielder. It just has to be someone that is a threat. Kotsay is never a threat. I would rather have Jones DH every single game.

Hitmen77
07-20-2010, 04:32 PM
I am pretty sure he is not, but I always get a kick out of selective stats. How about we try this: Kotsay is batting .227 with an OPS of .683 with 19 RBI in over 200 at-bats ON THE YEAR. He is never going to get better as his career is pretty much done. We need a bat in this lineup.

You mean we have to cherry pick stats to make Mark Kotsay look like a passable DH? Shocking! Ozzie's DH plan can stand on its own merits!

The problem is that Kotsay is a rally killer. Yesterday Kotsay and Jones hitting back to back gives us a huge hole in our lineup to stop dead in its tracks anything our top hitters can get going.

sullythered
07-20-2010, 04:43 PM
You mean we have to cherry pick stats to make Mark Kotsay look like a passable DH? Shocking! Ozzie's DH plan can stand on its own merits!

The problem is that Kotsay is a rally killer. Yesterday Kotsay and Jones hitting back to back gives us a huge hole in our lineup to stop dead in its tracks anything our top hitters can get going.
Not to play devil's advocate, but if we're not cherry picking stats, the Sox are 10 games over .500 and 2 and a half up in the division ON THE YEAR. So, technically, Ozzie's DH plan has worked.:devil:

Hitmen77
07-20-2010, 04:52 PM
Not to play devil's advocate, but if we're not cherry picking stats, the Sox are 10 games over .500 and 2 and a half up in the division ON THE YEAR. So, technically, Ozzie's DH plan has worked.:devil:

One might say that we're in first in spite of our DH plan. :wink:

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 04:53 PM
It's not like the only option is Kotsay vs. Dunn or Fielder.

If we simply put Viciedo (when we want power) or Lillibridge (when we want speed) we'd be getting much more out of the DH role...at least until they cool off from how they've hit since being called up.

Rotating guys from the field when they need a breather plus those 2 options would be in in-house option for improvement.

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 05:01 PM
If we simply put Viciedo (when we want power) or Lillibridge (when we want speed) we'd be getting much more out of the DH role...at least until they cool off from how they've hit since being called up.
The problem is, as long as we don't have bona fide talents to replace Kotsay at DH, Ozzie will keep trotting him out there. Both Viciedo and Lillibridge are inexperienced guys making minimal pay with options to be sent down to minors. There is zero pressure on Ozzie to use those two in place of Kotsay, which is sad considering that they've displayed better skills in that limited playing time than Kotsay ever did all this time.

Coops4Aces
07-20-2010, 05:16 PM
It's not like the only option is Kotsay vs. Dunn or Fielder.

If we simply put Viciedo (when we want power) or Lillibridge (when we want speed) we'd be getting much more out of the DH role...at least until they cool off from how they've hit since being called up.

Rotating guys from the field when they need a breather plus those 2 options would be in in-house option for improvement.

If only Ozzie was this rational.

Tragg
07-20-2010, 05:17 PM
The problem is, as long as we don't have bona fide talents to replace Kotsay at DH, Ozzie will keep trotting him out there. Both Viciedo and Lillibridge are inexperienced guys making minimal pay with options to be sent down to minors. There is zero pressure on Ozzie to use those two in place of Kotsay, which is sad considering that they've displayed better skills in that limited playing time than Kotsay ever did all this time.
But they are better than the player Guillen insists on playing.

This business of paying 2 top prospects to rent Dunn is ridiculous. That's a Cliff Lee Price and Lee is a top 5 pitcher...Dunn is nowhere close to a top 5 or top 20 position player.

We have no 3B for next year, other than Morel; the team was awful when TEahen was there (coincidence?). WE have very little organizational depth.
Williams needs to be working on some sly small trades....not piling on talent to get the big fish.

Dibbs
07-20-2010, 05:21 PM
Not to play devil's advocate, but if we're not cherry picking stats, the Sox are 10 games over .500 and 2 and a half up in the division ON THE YEAR. So, technically, Ozzie's DH plan has worked.:devil:

Well maybe if we had a DH, we'd be 16 games over and 5.5 up on the competition.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-20-2010, 05:26 PM
Almost any hitter we get would be an improvement over Kotsay so the best move would be to get a guy that can play a solid RF thereby A) improving the defense B) improving the offense and C) increasing the likelihood of keeping Quentin healthy.

A player like Cody Ross would be perfect.

russ99
07-20-2010, 05:54 PM
6 months ago you guys wanted to run Lillibridge out of town. 26 at-bats later, you want him starting at DH. And after 21 at-bats you want a 21 year old kid 2 years out of Cuba starting there too.

:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220 than ruin the future of a promising prospect (Viciedo) over it.

But hey this thread isn't about common sense, this is about how much smarter everyone is than Ozzie.

DirtySox
07-20-2010, 05:59 PM
:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220 than ruin the future of a promising prospect (Viciedo) over it.

Damn. I didn't realize giving playing time to prospects ruins them.

sullythered
07-20-2010, 06:00 PM
6 months ago you guys wanted to run Lillibridge out of town. 26 at-bats later, you want him starting at DH. And after 21 at-bats you want a 21 year old kid 2 years out of Cuba starting there too.

:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220 than ruin the future of a promising prospect (Viciedo) over it.

But hey this thread isn't about common sense, this is about how much smarter everyone is than Ozzie.
I understand wanting a veteran in there, but how is rotting on the bench better for the future of The Tank than actually playing baseball games?

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 06:05 PM
But they are better than the player Guillen insists on playing.
Yup, I'd take Viciedo + Lillibridge over Kotsay anyday at DH. Kotsay's a fine bench player but a starter, I think not. Why Ozzie can't see this is just infuriating.

This business of paying 2 top prospects to rent Dunn is ridiculous. That's a Cliff Lee Price and Lee is a top 5 pitcher...Dunn is nowhere close to a top 5 or top 20 position player.
At first I was on the Dunn bandwagon, but after hearing the Nats' asking price, I think that ship has clearly sailed. I would consider giving up the package Nats want for a Prince Fielder but let's face it: Fielder has always been a long long long shot. And he's a Boras client. Now I'm on the "Get someone cheap" bandwagon.

We have no 3B for next year, other than Morel; the team was awful when TEahen was there (coincidence?). WE have very little organizational depth.
Williams needs to be working on some sly small trades....not piling on talent to get the big fish.
Oh come on, don't be so hard on Teaba...I mean Teahen. He may be crap at every aspect of baseball but he's got potential! I wouldn't mind giving Morel a shot. His bat may not be good enough for 3B but he certainly has the glove to stick there. It would be nice to see Kenny acquire a real 3B but knowing him, I won't count on it.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-20-2010, 06:05 PM
good at-bats and hit .220

oxymoron

mjmcend
07-20-2010, 06:46 PM
Damn. I didn't realize giving playing time to prospects ruins them.

This is really simple. Playing baseball makes you bad at baseball.

doublem23
07-20-2010, 06:49 PM
:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220

:rolling:

Look at Kotsay ground in double plays, guys... WHAT A VETERAN MOVE.

Please explain how Viciedo benefits by sitting on the bench, or how the Sox benefit by trotting up a worse hitter everyday. Please.

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 06:56 PM
All right, I'll play Captain Obvious (or Oblivious): I think Russ was trying to say that Viciedo has been prematurely called up thus giving him playing time at MLB level is equivalent to "ruin the future of a promising prospect." Russ would rather trot Kotsay out there and see him look like a tool every time he swings the bat instead of exposing Viciedo to MLB pitching and killing his confidence. Anyways, I'll just repeat what's already been pointed out: Viciedo's up here with the club and he ain't going down any time soon so he might as well get full playing time as a starter not a bench player.

SOXSINCE'70
07-20-2010, 07:05 PM
We've come a long way from Schueler & Lemont.


:ozzie

"Tank Got!" (Thank God)

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 07:17 PM
:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220 than ruin the future of a promising prospect (Viciedo) over it.



You keep spewing this bull**** with out any reason on why it will ruin Dayan.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 07:19 PM
All right, I'll play Captain Obvious (or Oblivious): I think Russ was trying to say that Viciedo has been prematurely called up thus giving him playing time at MLB level is equivalent to "ruin the future of a promising prospect." Russ would rather trot Kotsay out there and see him look like a tool every time he swings the bat instead of exposing Viciedo to MLB pitching and killing his confidence. Anyways, I'll just repeat what's already been pointed out: Viciedo's up here with the club and he ain't going down any time soon so he might as well get full playing time as a starter not a bench player.

Oh that makes sense, sitting him on the bench, not hitting at the major league level helps him and playing him does not. We are such idiots for not putting these pieces together.

Brian26
07-20-2010, 07:27 PM
I really don't forsee a deal happening.

There's nothing out there that makes any sense.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 07:33 PM
You know what is funny Dayan is actually on a 6 game hitting streak stemming from the 4 game series with the Angels, where you know he actually played.

Pablo_Honey
07-20-2010, 07:35 PM
Oh that makes sense, sitting him on the bench, not hitting at the major league level helps him and playing him does not. We are such idiots for not putting these pieces together.
Well, that wasn't my point, that was Russ'. Was just trying to play the translator but I guess that was unneeded. FYI, I am on the "Play Viciedo" bandwagon. I am 227% sure Viciedo will make this team better offensively than Kotsay ever can. I wanna see Dayan get lots and lots of ABs if he's staying up here because his time could be spent better down in the minors than on the bench.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 07:36 PM
Well, that wasn't my point, that was Russ'. Was just trying to play the translator but I guess that was unneeded. FYI, I am on the "Play Viciedo" bandwagon. I am 227% sure Viciedo will make this team better offensively than Kotsay ever can. I wanna see Dayan get lots and lots of ABs if he's staying up here because his time could be spent better down in the minors than on the bench.

I was just pointing out his logic makes absolutely no sense.

And when Viciedo has played, he has produced so maybe he is ready.

russ99
07-20-2010, 07:57 PM
I was just pointing out his logic makes absolutely no sense.

And when Viciedo has played, he has produced so maybe he is ready.

I certainly want Viciedo to play, just not at DH.

It's the same reason why Quentin doesn't want to DH. If it's so idiotic than why don't other more established players want to play that position?

I also think those of you for the idea have no real reason to subject Viciedo to the mental struggle involved in not playing the field other than wanting Kotsay out of the lineup. Btw - Is there any other 22 year old in the majors playing DH?

Coops4Aces
07-20-2010, 08:00 PM
I certainly want Viciedo to play, just not at DH.

It's the same reason why Quentin doesn't want to DH.

I think I know the answer, but I'll ask the question anyways. Why can't Viciedo DH?

russ99
07-20-2010, 08:11 PM
I think I know the answer, but I'll ask the question anyways. Why can't Viciedo DH?

Whoops, edited it after you posted.

But to sum up:

1. If big leaguers have trouble with the mental aspect of staying in the game while teammates are on the field, and the difficulty of having to "turn it on" every 3 innings to go up and bat, then not dwell on poor results, then how hard is it for a 21 year old kid? Especially one that came up from Cuba 2 years ago and speaks no English.

2. If he's ready, he should play every day and play a position. Platoon him at 3B, 1B and LF and have the vets DH.

Domeshot17
07-20-2010, 08:33 PM
Whoops, edited it after you posted.

But to sum up:

1. If big leaguers have trouble with the mental aspect of staying in the game while teammates are on the field, and the difficulty of having to "turn it on" every 3 innings to go up and bat, then not dwell on poor results, then how hard is it for a 21 year old kid? Especially one that came up from Cuba 2 years ago and speaks no English.

2. If he's ready, he should play every day and play a position. Platoon him at 3B, 1B and LF and have the vets DH.

1) The truth is most big leaguers do not mentally struggle with the role of the DH. They do not want to DH because it limits their earning power. Carlos Quentin is coming up on his first shot at FA, so if he shows he cant play the field and has to be a DH, his value is now lower. The same is true for Adam Dunn. If they are viewed as DH only players, half of their potential employers are wiped out.

2) It isn't that simple. DH is an offensive position, and Vicideo is the weakest defender we have. He makes the most sense at DH. The kid has not come out and said he does not like it, and has done well in limited time. Playing him at 3b over Vizquel because of Age is just stupid. Infact, wouldn't one argue DH makes MORE SENSE for Dayan, since he is such a poor defender, he does not have to worry about making bad plays in the field, costing his team runs, and taking errors with him to the plate.

dickallen15
07-20-2010, 08:44 PM
1) The truth is most big leaguers do not mentally struggle with the role of the DH. They do not want to DH because it limits their earning power. Carlos Quentin is coming up on his first shot at FA, so if he shows he cant play the field and has to be a DH, his value is now lower. The same is true for Adam Dunn. If they are viewed as DH only players, half of their potential employers are wiped out.

2) It isn't that simple. DH is an offensive position, and Vicideo is the weakest defender we have. He makes the most sense at DH. The kid has not come out and said he does not like it, and has done well in limited time. Playing him at 3b over Vizquel because of Age is just stupid. Infact, wouldn't one argue DH makes MORE SENSE for Dayan, since he is such a poor defender, he does not have to worry about making bad plays in the field, costing his team runs, and taking errors with him to the plate.

I'm also sure if you asked Viciedo if he would rather watch the entire game or DH, he'd want to DH. After he kicked the ball in Minneapolis he had zero confidence. Beckham saved him another error later on. He doesn't take his defense to the plate. Let him DH or send him back to Charlotte.

Dibbs
07-20-2010, 09:03 PM
1) The truth is most big leaguers do not mentally struggle with the role of the DH. They do not want to DH because it limits their earning power.

I thought everyone knew that. The only reason people do not want to DH is because they will make less money.

doublem23
07-20-2010, 09:06 PM
1) The truth is most big leaguers do not mentally struggle with the role of the DH. They do not want to DH because it limits their earning power. Carlos Quentin is coming up on his first shot at FA, so if he shows he cant play the field and has to be a DH, his value is now lower. The same is true for Adam Dunn. If they are viewed as DH only players, half of their potential employers are wiped out.

2) It isn't that simple. DH is an offensive position, and Vicideo is the weakest defender we have. He makes the most sense at DH. The kid has not come out and said he does not like it, and has done well in limited time. Playing him at 3b over Vizquel because of Age is just stupid. Infact, wouldn't one argue DH makes MORE SENSE for Dayan, since he is such a poor defender, he does not have to worry about making bad plays in the field, costing his team runs, and taking errors with him to the plate.

Bin-go.

Players saying "it messes with my mental approach" is really code for "I don't want to hurt my value." Same reason Alfonso Soriano pitched a fit when the Nationals moved him from 2B to OF. At 2B he was a premier offensive player for his position. In the OF, he's just average.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Dayan wouldn't grow more as a ballplayer if he were in the field everyday, but to think he's benefitting riding the pine over at least hitting (since that is apparently his most god-given skill) is downright INSANE.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-20-2010, 09:14 PM
I certainly want Viciedo to play, just not at DH.

It's the same reason why Quentin doesn't want to DH. If it's so idiotic than why don't other more established players want to play that position?

I also think those of you for the idea have no real reason to subject Viciedo to the mental struggle involved in not playing the field other than wanting Kotsay out of the lineup. Btw - Is there any other 22 year old in the majors playing DH?

I've seen you say this numerous times and it makes no sense whatsoever. Viciedo is a player that struggles defensively so it is illogical to think that not having to play defense would somehow burden him. If anything, it would relieve him of the stress of trying to field at the major league level and enable him to concentrate on what he does best and use the skills in which he undoubtedly has the most confidence.

Perhaps Viciedo is can hit major league pitching but can't field at the major league level - I don't understand why that is such a difficult concept for you to wrap your mind around.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2010, 09:20 PM
I also think those of you for the idea have no real reason to subject Viciedo to the mental struggle involved in not playing the field other than wanting Kotsay out of the lineup. Btw - Is there any other 22 year old in the majors playing DH?

You are just making things up to try and justify what Ozzie is doing. Until you find some quote from Dayan about this, stop saying it.

You keep saying players don't want to DH without facts to back it up.

TomBradley72
07-21-2010, 09:23 AM
6 months ago you guys wanted to run Lillibridge out of town. 26 at-bats later, you want him starting at DH. And after 21 at-bats you want a 21 year old kid 2 years out of Cuba starting there too.

:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220 than ruin the future of a promising prospect (Viciedo) over it.

But hey this thread isn't about common sense, this is about how much smarter everyone is than Ozzie.

Who has argued that Lillibridge should be the starting DH, I've proposed he be part of the "rotation"...he's hit .423 since being called up following a good start at AAA, why not play the "hot hand" until he cools off? Especially when could use more speed in the line up, for pitchers parks like Safeco, or when we're facing very tough LHers and expecting a low scoring/tight ballgame?

How is giving Viciedo some AB's a few times a week "ruining" his future?

Unreal.



Over a given week:
1-2 starts for Lillibridge
1-2 starts for Viciedo
1-2 starts for your beloved .220 hitting veteran- Kotsay
2-3 starts as "rest" for position players- Konerko/Rios/Quentin/Pierre
I don't have a problem with OG's "rotating DH" strategy, but he's not rotating the role, he's given it to a 4th-5th OF, back up 1st baseman.

asindc
07-21-2010, 11:16 AM
Robin Ventura, Robin Ventura, Robin Ventura

Harold Baines, Harold Baines, Harold Baines

:cool:

Well, since we are playing that game...

1994 Frank, 1994 Frank, 1994 Frank. (No teal, because if it has even the remotest chance of being true...)

Tragg
07-21-2010, 12:36 PM
:rolleyes: Unreal. I'd rather have an experienced guy play there give us good at-bats and hit .220 than ruin the future of a promising prospect (Viciedo) over it.

It must be deep satire.
A modern day Jonathan Swift
It's the only explanation for this comment.

Sargeant79
07-21-2010, 12:49 PM
Who has argued that Lillibridge should be the starting DH, I've proposed he be part of the "rotation"...he's hit .423 since being called up following a good start at AAA, why not play the "hot hand" until he cools off? Especially when could use more speed in the line up, for pitchers parks like Safeco, or when we're facing very tough LHers and expecting a low scoring/tight ballgame?

How is giving Viciedo some AB's a few times a week "ruining" his future?

Unreal.




Over a given week:
1-2 starts for Lillibridge
1-2 starts for Viciedo
1-2 starts for your beloved .220 hitting veteran- Kotsay
2-3 starts as "rest" for position players- Konerko/Rios/Quentin/Pierre
I don't have a problem with OG's "rotating DH" strategy, but he's not rotating the role, he's given it to a 4th-5th OF, back up 1st baseman.


I 100% agree with this. Especially the bolded part.

DirtySox
07-21-2010, 01:20 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Reversal from yesterday: #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox) trying to accelerate talks for Prince. Problem: #Brewers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Brewers) want SP, and view Hudson as only a 3 or 4. #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB).

Sockinchisox
07-21-2010, 01:22 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Reversal from yesterday: #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox) trying to accelerate talks for Prince. Problem: #Brewers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Brewers) want SP, and view Hudson as only a 3 or 4. #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB).

I wish.

Also, wonder if this is leaking to try and get Nats to drop price on Dunn.

FielderJones
07-21-2010, 01:24 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Reversal from yesterday: #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox) trying to accelerate talks for Prince. Problem: #Brewers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Brewers) want SP, and view Hudson as only a 3 or 4. #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB).

No deal is better than this deal.

russ99
07-21-2010, 01:30 PM
I've seen you say this numerous times and it makes no sense whatsoever. Viciedo is a player that struggles defensively so it is illogical to think that not having to play defense would somehow burden him. If anything, it would relieve him of the stress of trying to field at the major league level and enable him to concentrate on what he does best and use the skills in which he undoubtedly has the most confidence.

Perhaps Viciedo is can hit major league pitching but can't field at the major league level - I don't understand why that is such a difficult concept for you to wrap your mind around.

How is he going to improve defensively at DH? Rookies don't DH, especially guys you consider top prospects and could fill a position in the future. The entire league doesn't do this, why should the Sox just because the fans hate Kotsay?

And I never referred to Kotsay as a "beloved .220 hitting veteran", or that I want the guy to play full time.

I'm saying he's the only veteran lefthander on the bench and by default he's the primary DH vs. righthanders. If we had any better veteran option, he'd be the guy. I also don't agree with Ozzie batting him 5th, but that's obviously to break up the rightys.

I'd think Jones' at-bats last night (and for the last month except for a few HRs) would show you why I temporarily prefer Kotsay in the role until Kenny can get someone better.

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 01:30 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Reversal from yesterday: #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox) trying to accelerate talks for Prince. Problem: #Brewers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Brewers) want SP, and view Hudson as only a 3 or 4. #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB).
Darn, I was hoping his performance down in the minors meant he's truly changed his future outlook but it seems his potential is still a middle or back end guy.

Oh, and please lay down the pipe, Kenny. We need to part with Danks and/or Floyd to get Fielder. NO THANKS.

balke
07-21-2010, 01:39 PM
No deal is better than this deal.

The only precaution against this is Hudson seems legit. If he leaves - he'd be what the Sox are missing next year. Cheap, young, good.

Fielder at DH sounds like World Series to me though.

Sockinchisox
07-21-2010, 01:42 PM
Brewers probably want Beckham.

http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19097111671

mzh
07-21-2010, 01:44 PM
Brewers probably want Beckham.

http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19097111671
Talks end with Beckham. Beckham has been pushed as the new face of the franchise since last year, Beckham's not getting moved unless it involves a guy named Lincecum. Just my take.

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 01:45 PM
How is he going to improve defensively at DH? Rookies don't DH, especially guys you consider top prospects and could fill a position in the future.
Billy Butler started off as a DH and then eased into fulltime 1B duties. Travis Hafner and David Ortiz were so bad at defense, they were given DH duties at young age. I'm sure there are more examples but that's all I can think of at the moment. You are making it sound like we are an NL team. The fact is, we have a DH spot to play around with and Viciedo's only upside is his bat, so why shouldn't we DH him? Especially when the main player in the DH "rotation" is posting an OPS below .700 and Viciedo's shown some nice hitting. Teahen and Morel have third base locked down; Paulie will most likely return at first base; Pierre, Rios and Quentin have the outfield; so where does Viciedo play?

The entire league does this, why should the Sox just because the fans hate Kotsay?
Really? So, just because other teams are doing it, we should do it too? Our hatred for Kotsay (not on a personal level, obviously) is justified by his ugly, ugly offensive numbers. He, as a DH, has one job to do - HIT - and he's not getting it done. We have two guys that are on fire right now in Viciedo and Lillibridge. Why not see how they fare as a DH? Once they cool off, fine, get Kotsay back in there but right now, we should see what our farmhands can do. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

FielderJones
07-21-2010, 01:55 PM
Fielder at DH sounds like World Series to me though.

Not going to get to the postseason losing every fifth game, plus the occasional hiccups that the starting big four have. The Sox have already tried the "big bats, bad fifth starter" alignment. We know how that turned out. Hudson seems like a serviceable enough fifth starter for the rest of this season. The way the Sox have been playing, that should be enough.

dickallen15
07-21-2010, 01:55 PM
How is he going to improve defensively at DH? Rookies don't DH, especially guys you consider top prospects and could fill a position in the future. The entire league doesn't do this, why should the Sox just because the fans hate Kotsay?

And I never referred to Kotsay as a "beloved .220 hitting veteran", or that I want the guy to play full time.

I'm saying he's the only veteran lefthander on the bench and by default he's the primary DH vs. righthanders. If we had any better veteran option, he'd be the guy. I also don't agree with Ozzie batting him 5th, but that's obviously to break up the rightys.

I'd think Jones' at-bats last night (and for the last month except for a few HRs) would show you why I temporarily prefer Kotsay in the role until Kenny can get someone better.

He may improve offensively DHing. He's not going to improve defensively DHing, but he's certainly not going to improve defensively not playing at all. 21 year olds with talent need to play somehow. If its just batting, fine, the White Sox have a huge hole at DH.

I really don't know why you have to break up the righties with an automatic out in the middle of your line up.

Viciedo sitting on the bench and doing nothing, is about as dumb as it gets.Either put him in the line up whether its 3B, 1B, LF, RF or DH or send him back to Charlotte.

BadBobbyJenks
07-21-2010, 01:55 PM
How is he going to improve defensively at DH? Rookies don't DH, especially guys you consider top prospects and could fill a position in the future. The entire league doesn't do this, why should the Sox just because the fans hate Kotsay?



Jack Cust did. Travis Hafner did. Bret Wallace probably will. Didn't take the Twins long to DH Papi.

No one is asking to full time DH him, but he can get some consistent at bats there.

khan
07-21-2010, 01:59 PM
How is he going to improve defensively at DH? Rookies don't DH, especially guys you consider top prospects and could fill a position in the future. The entire league doesn't do this, why should the Sox just because the fans hate Kotsay?
Better yet: How is letting Viciedo ROT on the bench help him improve AT ALL?

Whether you like it or not, Viciedo's primary attribute is his BAT. At a minimum, DHing him will enable him to continue to progress as a player in ANY form or fashion.

Besides, he's ALREADY a better hitter than Kotsay.

TDog
07-21-2010, 02:11 PM
...

Fielder at DH sounds like World Series to me though.

Not if the Sox have to trade a starting pitcher -- any starting pitcher.

Replace anyone at the level of Hudson or above with anyone at a level below Hudson, and it doesn't matter who the DH is.

The big concern about Hudson isn't just that the Sox need to win his starts, but that he not place too much pressure on the bullpen. So far, his bullpen game came just before the break, and it didn't hurt and he pitched deep against the Mariners while the White Sox won both games. You combine a low winning percentage with the additional stress on the pitching staff, and this team doesn't have enough pitching.

Losing Peavy wasn't fatal for this team. Losing Peavy and Hudson probably would be.

TomBradley72
07-21-2010, 03:12 PM
How is he going to improve defensively at DH? Rookies don't DH, especially guys you consider top prospects and could fill a position in the future. The entire league doesn't do this, why should the Sox just because the fans hate Kotsay?



Frank Thomas DH'd for 101 games, 459 plate appearances in his 1st full season in the majors in 1991.

Viciedo DHing would help him with his timing by giving him regular ABs...and he can still play 3rd a few times/week vs. lefties. I don't see the harm in using him this way for the final 10 weeks of the season.

How is not playing at all > playing as a DH?

Coops4Aces
07-21-2010, 03:48 PM
Frank Thomas DH'd for 101 games, 459 plate appearances in his 1st full season in the majors in 1991.

Viciedo DHing would help him with his timing by giving him regular ABs...and he can still play 3rd a few times/week vs. lefties. I don't see the harm in using him this way for the final 10 weeks of the season.

How is not playing at all > playing as a DH?

Don't bring up stats like this, they ruin russ's argument

BadBobbyJenks
07-21-2010, 04:11 PM
How is not playing at all > playing as a DH?

He hasn't been able to answer this question for weeks yet still keeps posting it.

Domeshot17
07-21-2010, 04:19 PM
The best part is if Ozzie comes out tomorrow and says Dayan will be the DH for the rest of the season Russ would proclaim it the greatest decision in White Sox history.

Domeshot17
07-21-2010, 04:20 PM
Not going to get to the postseason losing every fifth game, plus the occasional hiccups that the starting big four have. The Sox have already tried the "big bats, bad fifth starter" alignment. We know how that turned out. Hudson seems like a serviceable enough fifth starter for the rest of this season. The way the Sox have been playing, that should be enough.

Maybe if we get the mariners in round the ALCS and the Nats in the World Series :tongue:

Coops4Aces
07-21-2010, 04:44 PM
The best part is if Ozzie comes out tomorrow and says Dayan will be the DH for the rest of the season Russ would proclaim it the greatest decision in White Sox history.

:rolling:

The truth shall set you free.