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View Full Version : What to do about TCQ


WhiteSox5187
07-19-2010, 05:43 PM
The guy can hit, there is no doubt about that and when he is on he is one of the best hitters in the game, The problem is he is made out of glass. He plays the field poorly and is liable to get hurt. He runs the bases poorly and is liable to get hurt. Even at the plate, he is liable to get hurt as he gets hit so often. The guy is just a walking injury. My question is this, what should we do with him after this year? Do you keep him and keep throwing him out there everyday and hope he can stay healthy all year (which he has never done). Keep him as a part time player or just cut him loose?

I honestly have no idea what to do with him. The upside is huge with this guy, but he's the typical Kenny "lightening in a bottle" kind of guy and I don't like the idea of counting on significant offensive production from a guy who is never healthy. What would you do?

DirtySox
07-19-2010, 05:44 PM
DH him. He's definitely not going to be cut loose if he keeps hitting the way he has.

rdwj
07-19-2010, 05:49 PM
I'd like to keep him, but make him a DH most of the time. And I really think someone needs to have a discussion with him on appropriate aggressiveness. Go hard, but time to stop running into walls and diving headfirst into bases.

Rockabilly
07-19-2010, 06:14 PM
I would trade him in the off season.

delben91
07-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Just release him. I hate him as much as Konerko and Rios. Did you see that throw Rios made last night?!?!! And cut Pierre, Kotsay, Vizquel and Beckham too. Don't even try to trade them, they're too worthless to get anything in return.

Seriously? I'd rotate him between RF and DH unless the Sox acquire a player that should truly only be a DH (Dunn, Fielder).

BadBobbyJenks
07-19-2010, 06:18 PM
Pray.

Frater Perdurabo
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
DH him.

but make him a DH most of the time.

These are the only acceptable answers. He needs to DH. His bat is too valuable, and he's to much of an injury risk, to play in the field. If he was a good fielder and/or if the Sox had another all-hit, no-field DH like Frank Thomas in 2003, I could see having Quentin play the field. But the Sox don't have a player like that and therefore he needs to DH all the time.

Only Ozzie is stupid enough to have an injury-prone horrible fielder who can mash play the field, while two better defensive outfielders who suck at hitting platoon at DH.

I'm still waiting for an Ozzpologist to defend this.

october23sp
07-19-2010, 07:52 PM
I think what we do at the trade deadline will determine whether or not TCQ will be our DH.

bigdommer
07-19-2010, 07:54 PM
There is no "lightening in a bottle" here as TCQ has absolutely raked at every level.

It's unfortunate that Andruw's production dropped off before TCQ heated up, because TCQ could have DH'd while Kotsay grabbed some bench. At this point, still seems like the most logical DH candidate, as Kotsay and Andruw should be playing in the field if they are in the lineup with TCQ. But Ozzie's crazy and he likes to "keep 'em guessing" so I guess we'll have to deal with it.

dickallen15
07-19-2010, 07:55 PM
He's a pretty bad RF defensively, but injury-wise, he seems to get hurt batting and running the bases more than fielding.

guillensdisciple
07-19-2010, 07:56 PM
umm, he hasn't been too bad for us. He's missed a total of 6 games on injury so far from what I've counted. The rest have been rests. He plays hard and what he's going through right now is irritation. He'll be fine tomorrow.

Rohan
07-19-2010, 08:44 PM
Let him play baseball. :bandance:

sullythered
07-19-2010, 08:58 PM
What?

.860 OPS in 79 games played this year. He's good, and has been healthy.

Craig Grebeck
07-19-2010, 09:01 PM
Don't be an idiot and have him stealing bases out there, for one. For two, DH the guy.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2010, 09:03 PM
What?

.860 OPS in 79 games played this year. He's good, and has been healthy.

His hand and his knee have given him problems of late. And again, he's never had a full year where he is healthy.

Craig Grebeck
07-19-2010, 09:04 PM
His hand and his knee have given him problems of late. And again, he's never had a full year where he is healthy.
He's also never had a full season as DH. Our medical team is top notch and this organization is laughably devoid of quality hitters. He has shown the life I needed to see to validate his being here next year.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2010, 09:04 PM
These are the only acceptable answers. He needs to DH. His bat is too valuable, and he's to much of an injury risk, to play in the field. If he was a good fielder and/or if the Sox had another all-hit, no-field DH like Frank Thomas in 2003, I could see having Quentin play the field. But the Sox don't have a player like that and therefore he needs to DH all the time.

Only Ozzie is stupid enough to have an injury-prone horrible fielder who can mash play the field, while two better defensive outfielders who suck at hitting platoon at DH.

I'm still waiting for an Ozzpologist to defend this.

The only other player Kenny got that can play RF has had two knee surgeries the past two years and can not hit his weight. Maybe the can try and turn Vicideo into a RF like the they turned Lee into a "left fielder" and tried to do with Josh Fields.

Craig Grebeck
07-19-2010, 09:07 PM
The only other player Kenny got that can play RF has had two knee surgeries the past two years and can not hit his weight. Maybe the can try and turn Vicideo into a RF like the they turned Lee into a "left fielder" and tried to do with Josh Fields.
I'm assuming you mean Jones. I'd assume, without any statistical validation, that the positive of having Jones in the field and Quentin at DH would be worth the lack of hitting.

Dibbs
07-19-2010, 09:09 PM
I would say DH, but Ozzie doesn't want a full time DH. Unless it's Kotsay of course.

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2010, 09:12 PM
I'm assuming you mean Jones. I'd assume, without any statistical validation, that the positive of having Jones in the field and Quentin at DH would be worth the lack of hitting.

Well earlier in the year Quentin wasn't hitting his weight either and you can't have two or more spots struggling to hit above .200; another thing to consider with Quentin at DH is the fact that he doesn't want to. He has said he doesn't like DHing and is "too hyper" or whatever to do that consistently. My reaction to that would be to say too bad, but I am not sure how that factors into the decision making process of a manager or a GM.

Frater Perdurabo
07-19-2010, 09:34 PM
I'm assuming you mean Jones. I'd assume, without any statistical validation, that the positive of having Jones in the field and Quentin at DH would be worth the lack of hitting.

Yes.

Or Kotsay and Jones could platoon in RF. Maybe Teahen when he returns.

The bottom line is that Quentin is too good of a hitter and too poor of a fielder to be kept full-time in RF, especially when the Ozzie regularly plays the pure comedy gold duo of Gene "Kotsay" Wilder and Ricard "Jones" Pryor at DH. What a joke.

Craig Grebeck
07-19-2010, 09:40 PM
Honestly, I'm fine with Teahen in RF.

gogosox675
07-19-2010, 09:53 PM
Quentin should be the DH. I also think getting rid of him would be a big mistake.

Domeshot17
07-19-2010, 10:19 PM
But if we DH Quentin...where will Mark "LOB" Kotsay play?????

WhiteSox5187
07-19-2010, 10:35 PM
Honestly, I'm fine with Teahen in RF.

I'd have no problem with that, Kotsay has said he can't play OF anymore because of his back. That's what makes me think that when Teahen is back Kotsay is going to be the odd man out. Either him or Viciedo.

voodoochile
07-19-2010, 10:47 PM
Let him play baseball. :bandance:

/thread

twinsuck
07-19-2010, 10:56 PM
keep him...

Domeshot17
07-19-2010, 11:08 PM
I'd have no problem with that, Kotsay has said he can't play OF anymore because of his back. That's what makes me think that when Teahen is back Kotsay is going to be the odd man out. Either him or Viciedo.

It will be Viciedo. Ozzie doesn't do well with rookies, but I can't see Kenny letting Dayan just rot on the bench for an entire season. Plus, Ozzie and Walker love Kotsay. I understand Kotsay brings intangibles and he is a good leader, he is obviously helping the clubhouse. But man, Greg Walker was on the score with cooper a week or 2 ago just drooling over Kotsay.

Maybe the real Solution is Omar to Manager next year and Kotsay to hitting coach? (I have no ideal if this should be teal deep pink or left black haha).

DirtySox
07-19-2010, 11:18 PM
It will be Viciedo. Ozzie doesn't do well with rookies, but I can't see Kenny letting Dayan just rot on the bench for an entire season.

I'm hoping if one of the top prospects is to be traded, it is Viciedo. He has no defensive value, is all bat, and has no plate discipline. I think losing him would hurt the least for the immediate future. Ain't hard to find a replacement 1B/DH on the open market. (That is if KW ignores Ozzie's terrible ideas in the future.)

soxinem1
07-19-2010, 11:22 PM
Honestly, I'm fine with Teahen in RF.

So am I. As long as it is with another team.

Domeshot17
07-19-2010, 11:25 PM
I'm hoping if one of the top prospects is to be traded, it is Viciedo. He has no defensive value, is all bat, and has no plate discipline. I think losing him would hurt the least for the immediate future. Ain't hard to find a replacement 1B/DH on the open market. (That is if KW ignores Ozzie's terrible ideas in the future.)

I was thinking that too, if you look at guys, power hitters especially, that have the most success, most work counts and find pitches to drive. Dayan seems cut from the Alexei mold of lets just swing at everything (he hasn't had his first mlb walk yet has he?). I wonder if the Sox could dangle Dayan as the centerpiece for Dunn. Obviously would be as a 1b, but Zimmerman-Dayan-Harper is a pretty nice young trio of hitters.

HomeFish
07-19-2010, 11:28 PM
I saw that Carlos left game a @ MIN early. What is his specific injury?

DirtySox
07-19-2010, 11:31 PM
I saw that Carlos left game a @ MIN early. What is his specific injury?

Bruised hand from stealing/sliding into 3B.

delben91
07-19-2010, 11:31 PM
I saw that Carlos left game a @ MIN early. What is his specific injury?

Amputated left leg.




Think he injured a hand getting hit by a pitch.

soxinem1
07-19-2010, 11:36 PM
I was thinking that too, if you look at guys, power hitters especially, that have the most success, most work counts and find pitches to drive. Dayan seems cut from the Alexei mold of lets just swing at everything (he hasn't had his first mlb walk yet has he?). I wonder if the Sox could dangle Dayan as the centerpiece for Dunn. Obviously would be as a 1b, but Zimmerman-Dayan-Harper is a pretty nice young trio of hitters.

Are you trying to build the future for WAS?? :scratch:

Why would we trade for a guy who frankly blows at either LF or 1B. Dunn says he does not want to DH. So what would we do, make Paulie the DH and put Dunn at 1B? Yeah, right!!

So if Dunn goes to LF, then what do you do with Pierre?

As was previously mentioned, Quentin has not been bad in RF, and he says he cannot mentally be a full-time DH yet. He should just play until he can't.

Guillen should just use Viciedo at DH 3-4 times a week and at 3B twice a week?

HomeFish
07-19-2010, 11:38 PM
bruised hand from stealing/sliding into 3b.


eta?

voodoochile
07-19-2010, 11:39 PM
Amputated left leg.




Think he injured a hand getting hit by a pitch.

http://www.movies.pop-cult.com/images/holygrail.jpg
"Tis but a flesh wound. Now hand me my bat..."

Domeshot17
07-19-2010, 11:40 PM
Are you trying to build the future for WAS?? :scratch:

Why would we trade for a guy who frankly blows at either LF or 1B. Dunn says he does not want to DH. So what would we do, make Paulie the DH and put Dunn at 1B? Yeah, right!!

So if Dunn goes to LF, then what do you do with Pierre?

As was previously mentioned, Quentin has not been bad in RF, and he says he cannot mentally be a full-time DH yet. He should just play until he can't.

Guillen should just use Viciedo at DH 3-4 times a week and at 3B twice a week?

Adam Dunn would lead out team in homers, doubles, be 3rd in RBIs and 2nd in runs (on a terrible team). Carlos Quentin hasn't proven much this year except he is streaky and can't be counted on to be a main cog because he misses time in key games. I would honestly use Quentin and Dunn in a RF rotation, with Dunn getting a couple starts at 1b a week (ala Kotsay) 1 or 2 in RF and 2 at DH. At this point, we are so desperate for a left handed hitting power bat, I would let Dunn play any of the 9 positions if it means his bat (obviously joking, but good lord do we desperately need a LH hitter).

Losing Peavy PROBABLY keeps us from really being a world series contender. Dunn puts us back in the conversation.

I would do Dayan-Torres-B Spec for Dunn, but the Nats won't right now.

Porcho
07-20-2010, 02:31 AM
Yes.

Or Kotsay and Jones could platoon in RF. Maybe Teahen when he returns.

The bottom line is that Quentin is too good of a hitter and too poor of a fielder to be kept full-time in RF, especially when the Ozzie regularly plays the pure comedy gold duo of Gene "Kotsay" Wilder and Ricard "Jones" Pryor at DH. What a joke.

I think he has to get use to playing RF. Remember he hasn't played RF in two years. As far as LF, he never played LF until he came to the Sox. The two positions are totally different. The spin of the ball off the bat is different for one. Believe it or not his defense is way better than what we've seen thus far. Now granted, he's not as good as Jones, but then, not many outfielders are as good as Jones.

I have been surprised by his fielding so far, as I have seen him play much better defense. However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

I think it's a matter of getting familiar with the position again. Getting familiar with the outfield irregularities in RF, such as lighting, how the ball reacts bouncing off the wall, corner, fence, etc.

Hopefully, Ozzie will continue to give him the opportunity to become settled and comfortable in RF. I know the majority of you, if not all of you, will disagree with me, but this is MHO.

Sam Spade
07-20-2010, 03:54 AM
I think he has to get use to playing RF. Remember he hasn't played RF in two years. As far as LF, he never played LF until he came to the Sox. The two positions are totally different. The spin of the ball off the bat is different for one. Believe it or not his defense is way better than what we've seen thus far. Now granted, he's not as good as Jones, but then, not many outfielders are as good as Jones.

I have been surprised by his fielding so far, as I have seen him play much better defense. However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

I think it's a matter of getting familiar with the position again. Getting familiar with the outfield irregularities in RF, such as lighting, how the ball reacts bouncing off the wall, corner, fence, etc.

Hopefully, Ozzie will continue to give him the opportunity to become settled and comfortable in RF. I know the majority of you, if not all of you, will disagree with me, but this is MHO.
If the majority of people here agree with you here, you may have some serious problems.

kufram
07-20-2010, 04:06 AM
What to do with TCQ?

Nothing. Even when his average was bad he was driving in runs. I'd like to have 25 guys that gave with his effort, even if it meant injury risks.

Seriously, how many games has TCQ's fielding cost us? I doubt if it is anything like approaching how many he has been a serious factor in the win.

I don't remember his fielding even being an issue when he was in left and tearing the cover off the ball until he hurt his wrist.

Like someone else said... let him play baseball.

hawkjt
07-20-2010, 04:07 AM
Ozzie just needs to keep doing what he is doing during since June 9, playing Carlos at DH and right field, playing Jones in rf some also.

Carlos is not a great defender right now,but he is passable. His bat is still powerful and needed. He helped get us to first place...and now we are going to change? Forget it. Just play him when he is ready and hope the injury bug stays away. Inge of the tigers got hit in the hand and broke it tonite and is out for 6 weeks...should the tigers dump him? It happens.

FielderJones
07-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Ozzie just needs to keep doing what he is doing during since June 9, playing Carlos at DH and right field, playing Jones in rf some also.

This. :thumbsup:

Somehow, despite all the flaws of this team, they have managed to take over first place in the AL Central and also beat some good teams on the way. So, for now, I'll put more stock in Ozzie's and Kenny's abilities than those of WSI's armchair managers and GMs.

Craig Grebeck
07-20-2010, 09:35 AM
It must get really boring constantly slamming people for expressing their opinions. Makes your presence on a message board a little puzzling, no?

Marqhead
07-20-2010, 09:59 AM
It must get really boring constantly slamming people for expressing their opinions. Makes your presence on a message board a little puzzling, no?

You tell us, you're the ringleader. :shrug:

goon
07-20-2010, 10:29 AM
I would say DH, but Ozzie doesn't want a full time DH. Unless it's Kotsay of course.

I'm not sure it's that he doesn't want a full-time DH, it's probably that he doesn't want someone who either can't play defense (Thome) or someone who is a defensive liability on the roster.

I kind of a agree with that idea. It keeps our position players healthier and rested, plus, having a solid defense can help win a lot of games.

soxfan43
07-20-2010, 10:53 AM
I'm not sure it's that he doesn't want a full-time DH, it's probably that he doesn't want someone who either can't play defense (Thome) or someone who is a defensive liability on the roster.

I kind of a agree with that idea. It keeps our position players healthier and rested, plus, having a solid defense can help win a lot of games.

Exactly, Ozzie likes being able to rotate guys in and out. Ideally one of those guys wouldn't be Kotsay. As far as TCQ goes, I've read many times that his makeup isn't ideal to be a full time DH. So as mentioned earlier in the thread, just continue on course and give him some time at RF and DH.

tm1119
07-20-2010, 10:53 AM
Put Teahen in RF when he gets back and DH Q. This 3B platoon Ozzie has been using seems to be working so might as well not mess with it. This would get Kotsay out of the linup and keep Q healthier, 2 birds 1 stone.

TheOldRoman
07-20-2010, 10:55 AM
You tell us, you're the ringleader. :shrug:http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/pwned-facekick.jpg

goon
07-20-2010, 11:02 AM
Ideally one of those guys wouldn't be Kotsay.

Agreed. Really wished they would have tried to get another backup 1B who was a decent hitter, rather than sign this guy right at the start of free agency.

soxfan43
07-20-2010, 11:19 AM
Agreed. Really wished they would have tried to get another backup 1B who was a decent hitter, rather than sign this guy right at the start of free agency.

Agreed, guys like Kotsay are a dime a dozen. I didn't see the point in locking him up so early in the off season. However, there weren't a ton of good options out there so I was fine with going with what they had and making a move mid season to add a decent bat. We'll see if that decent bat finds its way to Chicago in the next few weeks.

Craig Grebeck
07-20-2010, 12:54 PM
You tell us, you're the ringleader. :shrug:
There's a significant difference between telling someone 'X opinion is stupid, here's why' and 'X opinion is stupid, because you're not the GM or the manager.'

The former is debate, the latter is intellectual malaise.

kittle42
07-20-2010, 01:00 PM
There's a significant difference between telling someone 'X opinion is stupid, here's why' and 'X opinion is stupid, because you're not the GM or the manager.'

The former is debate, the latter is intellectual malaise.

The latter is also one of my least favorite "arguments" ever. It means that no one should ever criticize, or really even discuss, anything unless they have held the same job in their life. Just silly.

Marqhead
07-20-2010, 01:07 PM
There's a significant difference between telling someone 'X opinion is stupid, here's why' and 'X opinion is stupid, because you're not the GM or the manager.'

The former is debate, the latter is intellectual malaise.

I agree. But there is also a way to tell people you disagree with their opinions without using every snide, degrading form of the English language you can come up with.

98% of your posts are disagreeing with someone, that's cool with me and I usually enjoy reading them. But it doesn't seem to me you should be in any position to be calling people out for slamming others opinions in a ridiculous, over the top manner.

And the "you aren't the manager/GM" argument is the worst of them all.

eriqjaffe
07-20-2010, 01:07 PM
We'll see if that decent bat finds its way to Chicago in the next few weeks.Sure it will. Ichiro will be in town for four games next week!

Milw
07-20-2010, 01:49 PM
Can someone explain to me where this notion of Quentin as a bad defensive player comes from? He's got a cannon for an arm, his throws tend to be accurate, he hits the cutoff man more times than not, and while his range isn't fantastic, it's certainly not below average.

What am I missing?

kittle42
07-20-2010, 02:06 PM
Can someone explain to me where this notion of Quentin as a bad defensive player comes from? He's got a cannon for an arm, his throws tend to be accurate, he hits the cutoff man more times than not, and while his range isn't fantastic, it's certainly not below average.

What am I missing?

He often looks a bit lost out there. I think his range and his reads off the bat are definitely below average.

doublem23
07-20-2010, 02:23 PM
Can someone explain to me where this notion of Quentin as a bad defensive player comes from? He's got a cannon for an arm, his throws tend to be accurate, he hits the cutoff man more times than not, and while his range isn't fantastic, it's certainly not below average.

What am I missing?

He has a good arm, though not terribly accurate, but his instincts and footwork in the field are definitely below average. Some of that gets hidden at the Cell because our park is so small with such clean lines, but if he was playing everyday at Target Field, for instance, his flaws would be evident.

FielderJones
07-20-2010, 02:30 PM
And the "you aren't the manager/GM" argument is the worst of them all.

That's not my argument. My argument is that the people calling Ozzie and Kenny incompetent clowns are being made to look foolish by the current Sox results. If the Sox win the AL Central, they look even more foolish. But if the Sox falter, and they say "I told you so", they look like they're taking delight in Sox failure. What kind of fan is that?

doublem23
07-20-2010, 02:40 PM
That's not my argument. My argument is that the people calling Ozzie and Kenny incompetent clowns are being made to look foolish by the current Sox results. If the Sox win the AL Central, they look even more foolish. But if the Sox falter, and they say "I told you so", they look like they're taking delight in Sox failure. What kind of fan is that?

Bull****, not even 10 posts ago, you railed on the opinion of anyone who wasn't all rosy about this team because we weren't baseball insiders like Ozzie or KW. It's absolutely confoundingly ridiculous that anybody assumes that just because someone wasn't exactly jumping for joy at the prospect of watching Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones share 600 PA, that means we're not pleased with the results for the past month. Nor does it mean any of us would have been "happy" if the Sox had sucked.

TheOldRoman
07-20-2010, 03:14 PM
Bull****, not even 10 posts ago, you railed on the opinion of anyone who wasn't all rosy about this team because we weren't baseball insiders like Ozzie or KW. It's absolutely confoundingly ridiculous that anybody assumes that just because someone wasn't exactly jumping for joy at the prospect of watching Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones share 600 PA, that means we're not pleased with the results for the past month. Nor does it mean any of us would have been "happy" if the Sox had sucked.His post is correct. As he said, anyone who called Ozzie and Kenny "incompetent clowns" has been made to look foolish. I remember at least one specific person using that exact phrase. Disagreeing with the the team's direction is one thing, but anyone throwing around terms like that better be ready to take the ridicule. That crowd is looking completely foolish right now.

kittle42
07-20-2010, 03:19 PM
His post is correct. As he said, anyone who called Ozzie and Kenny "incompetent clowns" has been made to look foolish. I remember at least one specific person using that exact phrase. Disagreeing with the the team's direction is one thing, but anyone throwing around terms like that better be ready to take the ridicule. That crowd is looking completely foolish right now.

Well, then that poster shouldn't have been so scathing.

Regardless of where the Sox are in the standings this very minute, both Guillen and Williams can be questioned for decisions past and going forward from today. The glaring hole in the lineup is one of these issues.

doublem23
07-20-2010, 03:26 PM
Well, then that poster shouldn't have been so scathing.

Regardless of where the Sox are in the standings this very minute, both Guillen and Williams can be questioned for decisions past and going forward from today. The glaring hole in the lineup is one of these issues.

Yeah, we just played one of the most impressive stretches of baseball in history... And we're only 10 games over .500 and smack in the middle of a 3-team race. A lot of that can be attributed to some early, boneheaded decisions by KW and Ozzie. Hey, they deserve a lot of credit for getting these guys back in the race, but don't pretend like they just ended up in that hole by accident.

voodoochile
07-20-2010, 03:26 PM
His post is correct. As he said, anyone who called Ozzie and Kenny "incompetent clowns" has been made to look foolish. I remember at least one specific person using that exact phrase. Disagreeing with the the team's direction is one thing, but anyone throwing around terms like that better be ready to take the ridicule. That crowd is looking completely foolish right now.

There's also a significant difference between saying:

"Your opinion isn't valid because you aren't KW or OG."

and...

"People who said KW and OG are horrible at their job are being proven very very wrong."

FJ said the latter, not the former. Reading is a skill...

TheOldRoman
07-20-2010, 03:31 PM
There's also a significant difference between saying:

"Your opinion isn't valid because you aren't KW or OG."

and...

"People who said KW and OG are horrible at their job are being proven very very wrong."

FJ said the latter, not the former. Reading is a skill...I was addressing the one specific comment. No, I don't agree that nobody outside of the front office can comment on the team.

And Fielder never said one's opinions wasn't valid because they aren't in the front office, he said he would trust the actual front office over the experts who had told us for the first 2.5 months of the season how horrible the front office is. I trust the front office in talent evaluation over message boarders, too. Please explain where my reading comprehension failed.

Marqhead
07-20-2010, 03:32 PM
That's not my argument. My argument is that the people calling Ozzie and Kenny incompetent clowns are being made to look foolish by the current Sox results. If the Sox win the AL Central, they look even more foolish. But if the Sox falter, and they say "I told you so", they look like they're taking delight in Sox failure. What kind of fan is that?

As others have said, I can be happy about the team's results but upset with the team's composition. The 25 man roster and the everyday lineup are from the decisions of KW and Ozzie so of course they are going to get criticism when I'm not happy with either.

This team is winning, but it can get better. Replacing Kotsay and Jones in the middle of the lineup is a start, not having Teahen on this team is addition by subtraction, acquiring another strong, left handed bat can help this team down the stretch.

The Sox can win and Ozzie and KW can still look foolish in my opinion. Some of the moves that were chastised have worked out so far, but this team could be a lot better.

I don't like the "I told you so" people any more than you do, but I also don't think there are nearly as many of them as you do.

voodoochile
07-20-2010, 03:43 PM
Yeah, we just played one of the most impressive stretches of baseball in history... And we're only 10 games over .500 and smack in the middle of a 3-team race. A lot of that can be attributed to some early, boneheaded decisions by KW and Ozzie. Hey, they deserve a lot of credit for getting these guys back in the race, but don't pretend like they just ended up in that hole by accident.

Really? It's KW and OG's fault that the team went into a collective offensive slump for the first two months of the season resulting in a BABIP that was outside 3 standard deviations from the norm at one point?

It's also their fault that the SP (supposedly the rock to build the team on) had an ERA around 5.5 late in May?

Even with Matsui at DH (for example) the Sox still would have been in that hole. Maybe only 7 games back instead of 9.5, but the rest of these issues are not due to the lack of DH and in April our DH (Jones) was carrying the team offensively.

Those aren't opinion statements, they are facts. Now those facts are swinging the other way - including the DH going from good production to poor, yet the team has risen on the back of the starting pitching and the 8 position players.

Notably:

Vizquel proving KW completely correct for acquiring him.

TCM doing his usual late spring offensive climb.

TCQ finally hitting like the TCQ we expect and need.

Beckham finally showing some signs of offensive prowess.

That's what KW and OG expected. That's what has happened. The rest is for ****s and giggles...

doublem23
07-20-2010, 03:53 PM
Really? It's KW and OG's fault that the team went into a collective offensive slump for the first two months of the season resulting in a BABIP that was outside 3 standard deviations from the norm at one point?

It's also their fault that the SP (supposedly the rock to build the team on) had an ERA around 5.5 late in May?

Even with Matsui at DH (for example) the Sox still would have been in that hole. Maybe only 7 games back instead of 9.5, but the rest of these issues are not due to the lack of DH and in April our DH (Jones) was carrying the team offensively.

Those aren't opinion statements, they are facts. Now those facts are swinging the other way - including the DH going from good production to poor, yet the team has risen on the back of the starting pitching and the 8 position players.

Notably:

Vizquel proving KW completely correct for acquiring him.

TCM doing his usual late spring offensive climb.

TCQ finally hitting like the TCQ we expect and need.

Beckham finally showing some signs of offensive prowess.

That's what KW and OG expected. That's what has happened. The rest is for ****s and giggles...

BABIP is not some tell all stat that just predicts that guys will bounce back or fall off their production. Sometimes your BABIP sucks because you just suck. If I were to play in the MLB, my BABIP would be horrible, not because I'd be primed for a breakout but because I do not belong in a Major League uniform.

Yes, the Sox are still a poorly cosntructed team. The only reason they're back in this race is that they've played .800+ baseball for a month. They're still under .500 against the American (AKA good) League. Obviously they're not as bad as they were to start the season, but they're probably not this good, either.

If you think this little run somehow validates all the crazy decisions (Kotsay, Jones, Teahen) then I have to respectfully disagree. Maybe the confidence is infectious and they've all caught the bug for the year, but there are still some serious problems with our roster and minor league system.

Craig Grebeck
07-20-2010, 04:09 PM
BABIP is not some tell all stat that just predicts that guys will bounce back or fall off their production. Sometimes your BABIP sucks because you just suck. If I were to play in the MLB, my BABIP would be horrible, not because I'd be primed for a breakout but because I do not belong in a Major League uniform.

Yes, the Sox are still a poorly cosntructed team. The only reason they're back in this race is that they've played .800+ baseball for a month. They're still under .500 against the American (AKA good) League. Obviously they're not as bad as they were to start the season, but they're probably not this good, either.

If you think this little run somehow validates all the crazy decisions (Kotsay, Jones, Teahen) then I have to respectfully disagree. Maybe the confidence is infectious and they've all caught the bug for the year, but there are still some serious problems with our roster and minor league system.
Very quickly: the Sox have a low BABIP because they often have low BABIP hitters.

Gavin
07-20-2010, 04:17 PM
Very quickly: the Sox have a low BABIP because they often have low BABIP hitters.

That's a legitimate way to have a low BABIP. The point is, when you're that far away from the norm, something has to explain why your BABIP is so low and it's not "random chance".

Craig Grebeck
07-20-2010, 04:19 PM
That's a legitimate way to have a low BABIP. The point is, when you're that far away from the norm, something has to explain why your BABIP is so low and it's not "random chance".
Of course. That's a fair point, though I'll say that there's a far better chance of having an extraordinarily low BABIP if you tend to have low BABIP hitters.

voodoochile
07-20-2010, 04:21 PM
BABIP is not some tell all stat that just predicts that guys will bounce back or fall off their production. Sometimes your BABIP sucks because you just suck. If I were to play in the MLB, my BABIP would be horrible, not because I'd be primed for a breakout but because I do not belong in a Major League uniform.

Yes, the Sox are still a poorly cosntructed team. The only reason they're back in this race is that they've played .800+ baseball for a month. They're still under .500 against the American (AKA good) League. Obviously they're not as bad as they were to start the season, but they're probably not this good, either.

If you think this little run somehow validates all the crazy decisions (Kotsay, Jones, Teahen) then I have to respectfully disagree. Maybe the confidence is infectious and they've all caught the bug for the year, but there are still some serious problems with our roster and minor league system.

I think the flaws on this team have been grossly exaggerated by the people who think this team was poorly constructed. I think that's being proven right before our eyes.

No, the Sox won't continue to play .800 ball, but they won't have to.

Some of the issues that confronted the team is a strength of schedule issue. They played a very hard early season schedule and now are playing an easier portion. Sort of the opposite of what happened last year. Meanwhile the Twinkies got fat early in the year on an easier schedule and since things have turned around they've started to regress to the mean.

The fact though remains. The team was woefully underperforming their career averages/expectations on so many levels the first two months of the season that this current hot streak has merely put them where they probably should have been all along as players have progressed to their mean career numbers.

People took a look at the Sox record in late May and early June and screamed, "told you so" repeatedly. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, they seem baffled by the turnaround. They shouldn't be. Any kind of rational statistical analysis of the players would have expected a hot streak to occur at some point. Now it has and all people can say is, "well they shouldn't be THIS hot."

No, but they shouldn't have been THAT cold either...

hawkjt
07-20-2010, 04:24 PM
I think the flaws on this team have been grossly exaggerated by the people who think this team was poorly constructed. I think that's being proven right before our eyes.

No, the Sox won't continue to play .800 ball, but they won't have to.

Some of the issues that confronted the team is a strength of schedule issue. They played a very hard early season schedule and now are playing an easier portion. Sort of the opposite of what happened last year. Meanwhile the Twinkies got fat early in the year on an easier schedule and since things have turned around they've started to regress to the mean.

The fact though remains. The team was woefully underperforming their career averages/expectations on so many levels the first two months of the season that this current hot streak has merely put them where they probably should have been all along as players have progressed to their mean career numbers.

People took a look at the Sox record in late May and early June and screamed, "told you so" repeatedly. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, they seem baffled by the turnaround. They shouldn't be. Any kind of rational statistical analysis of the players would have expected a hot streak to occur at some point. Now it has and all people can say is, "well they shouldn't be THIS hot."

No, but they shouldn't have been THAT cold either...

Some fans will be screaming about the incompetence right up to the day the Sox clinch the division...and then keep screaming it.
Enjoy the ride boys...this is not an exact science,and if you win the division,it is the ultimate proof you are doing it better than your rivals.

Craig Grebeck
07-20-2010, 04:24 PM
I think the flaws on this team have been grossly exaggerated by the people who think this team was poorly constructed. I think that's being proven right before our eyes.

No, the Sox won't continue to play .800 ball, but they won't have to.

Some of the issues that confronted the team is a strength of schedule issue. They played a very hard early season schedule and now are playing an easier portion. Sort of the opposite of what happened last year. Meanwhile the Twinkies got fat early in the year on an easier schedule and since things have turned around they've started to regress to the mean.

The fact though remains. The team was woefully underperforming their career averages/expectations on so many levels the first two months of the season that this current hot streak has merely put them where they probably should have been all along as players have progressed to their mean career numbers.

People took a look at the Sox record in late May and early June and screamed, "told you so" repeatedly. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, they seem baffled by the turnaround. They shouldn't be. Any kind of rational statistical analysis of the players would have expected a hot streak to occur at some point. Now it has and all people can say is, "well they shouldn't be THIS hot."

No, but they shouldn't have been THAT cold either...
And these are all fair points. However, one can fairly say that Carlos Quentin is a poor defensive right fielder and should either be hid in LF, DH'd, or dealt with in some other manner.

voodoochile
07-20-2010, 04:30 PM
And these are all fair points. However, one can fairly say that Carlos Quentin is a poor defensive right fielder and should either be hid in LF, DH'd, or dealt with in some other manner.

I have no problem with that. I actually expect him to return to LF once Pierre's contract is up assuming the Sox don't trade TCQ first which I think is a horrible idea.

The original idea behind the rotating DH, the one issue that seems to the the main one for the people who claim the Sox were poorly conceived is that it would allow this kind of rotation. They haven't gotten the production from the players expected to rotate in to make it successful, and on that one point I will agree the Sox could use some improvement. I actually expect Teahen to get a lot of AB as the LH DH once he returns. He'd be an improvement over Kotsay for sure. Teahen can also play RF (or did last year for the Royals) and has a good arm. I won't be shocked if Viciedo goes down to the minors when Teahen returns, but Omar stays at 3B most if not all of the time with Teahen subbing in when the old guy needs a rest.

Unlike the Teahen ragers, I don't have a problem with that either. I think he'll post adequate offensive numbers once he gets fully back into the swing of things.

Craig Grebeck
07-20-2010, 04:33 PM
I have no problem with that. I actually expect him to return to LF once Pierre's contract is up assuming the Sox don't trade TCQ first which I think is a horrible idea.

The original idea behind the rotating DH, the one issue that seems to the the main one for the people who claim the Sox were poorly conceived is that it would allow this kind of rotation. They haven't gotten the production from the players expected to rotate in to make it successful, and on that one point I will agree the Sox could use some improvement. I actually expect Teahen to get a lot of AB as the LH DH once he returns. He'd be an improvement over Kotsay for sure. Teahen can also play RF (or did last year for the Royals) and has a good arm. I won't be shocked if Viciedo goes down to the minors when Teahen returns, but Omar stays at 3B most if not all of the time with Teahen subbing in when the old guy needs a rest.

Unlike the Teahen ragers, I don't have a problem with that either. I think he'll post adequate offensive numbers once he gets fully back into the swing of things.
I want a DH rotation if the White Sox have a surplus of hitting. It's a good policy, in that case. But I did not agree with the application when we had a serious lack thereof.

Viciedo should, and I imagine he will, return to the IL when Teahen returns. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes on a hitting rampage when he returns.

Edit: and should Quentin be traded, I am confident we would win the deal -- if for no other reason than the fact we have the best medical staff in baseball and couldn't keep him on track. He would spend far more time on the DL elsewhere. (Edit 2: not an argument to trade Carlos Quentin -- I assure you.)

TomBradley72
07-20-2010, 04:44 PM
There's also a significant difference between saying:

"Your opinion isn't valid because you aren't KW or OG."

and...

"People who said KW and OG are horrible at their job are being proven very very wrong."

FJ said the latter, not the former. Reading is a skill...


:hawk

"I love reading posts about posters posting posts...that's why I come to WSI!"

sullythered
07-20-2010, 04:57 PM
BABIP is not some tell all stat that just predicts that guys will bounce back or fall off their production. Sometimes your BABIP sucks because you just suck. If I were to play in the MLB, my BABIP would be horrible, not because I'd be primed for a breakout but because I do not belong in a Major League uniform.

Yes, the Sox are still a poorly cosntructed team. The only reason they're back in this race is that they've played .800+ baseball for a month. They're still under .500 against the American (AKA good) League. Obviously they're not as bad as they were to start the season, but they're probably not this good, either.

If you think this little run somehow validates all the crazy decisions (Kotsay, Jones, Teahen) then I have to respectfully disagree. Maybe the confidence is infectious and they've all caught the bug for the year, but there are still some serious problems with our roster and minor league system.

Not gonna argue your other points, but this far into the season, a team's overall record pretty closely approximates how good they are. It really doesn't matter the path they took to get there with this huge a sample size of games played.

bigdommer
07-20-2010, 05:01 PM
I don't criticize KW/Ozzie for their choice at DH (or lack of choices), because I think they were very hamstrung by the payroll. We tend to forget (at least I do) that 25% of this year's payroll was taken on late last summer when we were out of the race to acquire a pitcher on the DL and a hitter whose former employer gave him away for less than a bag of baseballs. Now, the Rios deal worked out so far, as I think his play has justified his $9.7MM salary. Peavy can be categorized as buyer beware or just dumb luck. We can debate that until spring training 2011.

Back to the point of the thread. KW's payroll dilemma, which is of his own doing, really restricted him with the 2 corner OF and DH spot. He basically had one player in TCQ, who is cheap at $3.2MM, who was a great value at any of those spots. He gets a known quantity, albeit a limited one, in Pierre at $4MM per year, which is an okay value for another spot. At that point, KW is left to either sign someone on the cheap (Jones up to $1.5MM, Kotsay at $1.5MM) or roll the dice on a prospect. Danks and Mitchell have had injuries, and after that, we really don't have much in the OF. Morel or Flowers are good enough to hit at this level, but DHing them doesn't make sense as you block the defensive development.

Once again, back to the thread, I think TCQ has to stay and you just have to live with the occasional injury. He is too cheap to trade and we have nothing in the farm system to replace him, and we cannot afford to take on salary to replace him. His two biggest injuries have kind of been freak injuries, as the bat punch, while ridiculous, will likely never happen again, and the plantar fasciitis can occur by getting out of a bunk bed (happened to a teammate in college).

And for anyone who thinks we will have more payroll next year because Konerko's $12MM comes off the books. Rios ($2.3 MM), Peavy ($1MM), Pierre ($2MM as most of LA's money came this year), Teahan ($0.75MM), Floyd ($2.25MM), Thornton ($0.75MM), Linebrink ($0.5MM) all have raises coming next year. Danks will get a raise as he is arbitration eligible. AJ and Jenks will come off the books, and their replacements will get cheaper, but who knows how much.

Porcho
07-20-2010, 07:52 PM
He has a good arm, though not terribly accurate, but his instincts and footwork in the field are definitely below average. Some of that gets hidden at the Cell because our park is so small with such clean lines, but if he was playing everyday at Target Field, for instance, his flaws would be evident.

I guess Chase Field must have been a small park, too, because he did just fine there, but of course he played RF his entire baseball career up to the point he was traded to the White Sox.

Most who say he is a poor fielder say the same thing. He has no range; his instincts are bad. I'm sorry but all this sounds like "talking points". What he lacks in range, he makes up with excellent instincts. It's a matter of adjusting and getting comfortable in the position.

I agree that he has made some errors...more than I've ever seen him make when RF was his regular position before he changed to L. However, that will change as his comfort level increases. I just hope Ozzie continues to play him in RF.

I know all of you will not agree with me, but....oh, well. This is MHO.

Milw
07-20-2010, 08:02 PM
I guess Chase Field must have been a small park, too, because he did just fine there, but of course he played RF his entire baseball career up to the point he was traded to the White Sox.

Most who say he is a poor fielder say the same thing. He has no range; his instincts are bad. I'm sorry but all this sounds like "talking points". What he lacks in range, he makes up with excellent instincts. It's a matter of adjusting and getting comfortable in the position.

I agree that he has made some errors...more than I've ever seen him make when RF was his regular position before he changed to L. However, that will change as his comfort level increases. I just hope Ozzie continues to play him in RF.

I know all of you will not agree with me, but....oh, well. This is MHO.
I agree with this 100%. A case can be made for making Quentin a full-time DH, but his defensive ability has nothing to do with it.

doublem23
07-20-2010, 09:27 PM
I guess Chase Field must have been a small park, too, because he did just fine there, but of course he played RF his entire baseball career up to the point he was traded to the White Sox.

Most who say he is a poor fielder say the same thing. He has no range; his instincts are bad. I'm sorry but all this sounds like "talking points". What he lacks in range, he makes up with excellent instincts. It's a matter of adjusting and getting comfortable in the position.

I agree that he has made some errors...more than I've ever seen him make when RF was his regular position before he changed to L. However, that will change as his comfort level increases. I just hope Ozzie continues to play him in RF.

I know all of you will not agree with me, but....oh, well. This is MHO.

I obviously never watched him play at Chase Field because I really don't like to watch National League baseball, but considering he played a grand total of about 110 G for the Diamondbacks in his career, I'm not sure you can really draw any sweeping conclusions based on that time.

Since I've seen Carlos play OF for the Sox since 2008, I am comfortable saying his attributes are generally poor, save for a strong, but inaccurate arm. Throw in the fact he's constantly hurting himself, and I see no real reason to keep playing him in the field.

HomeFish
07-20-2010, 11:00 PM
No Quentin at all in Seattle :(

I hope the big guy is ok and will still be able to hit upon his return. Everytime he is injured I am filled with fear that it will get him into a funk.

Porcho
07-20-2010, 11:58 PM
I obviously never watched him play at Chase Field because I really don't like to watch National League baseball, but considering he played a grand total of about 110 G for the Diamondbacks in his career, I'm not sure you can really draw any sweeping conclusions based on that time.

Since I've seen Carlos play OF for the Sox since 2008, I am comfortable saying his attributes are generally poor, save for a strong, but inaccurate arm. Throw in the fact he's constantly hurting himself, and I see no real reason to keep playing him in the field.

That's the point! You've only seen him since 2008 when he began playing L for the first time in his career. You have even less to base your "sweeping conclusions". I've been watching this young man since he played in the College World Series. He signed a ball for my son, and we've been fans and followed him ever since. Yeah, I think I have more to draw from then you.

IMHO.