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captain54
07-18-2010, 08:16 PM
Jenks was quoted after the 7-6 loss to Minny today, that he just didn't have it. Cutter was working, couldn't get this and that over, etc....

My question is this...if its apparent after the first couple of hitters that things aren't working (and I'm assuming it is).... wouldn't the catcher
have some sort of sign with the dugout, and signal this to either the manager and/or pitching coach to a)try to make an adjustment or
b) take him the hell out of there and someone else in.

I've seen this more than once with Jenks where, he's left in there for three of four hitters when things just aren't clicking. By the time they
took him out of there, he had not gotten anyone out and have given up two straight walks and two straight hits, and you had the feeling the
game was already blown

Rdy2PlayBall
07-18-2010, 08:27 PM
He's only blown a couple, and if you ever watch the Sox, you'd know Jenks always makes the game interesting, then locks it down after that. I don't think anyone expected him to give up 3+runs. Maybe if it were a 1 run lead they would have pulled him faster... but I don't think anyone would have expected this to happen, even with the 1st two runners on.

Bobby Jenks
07-18-2010, 08:35 PM
I only bring this up, because it happened earlier in the series. Raucsh walked a couple and gave up a couple of runs, and Gardenhire quickly yanked him for Crain. In a game of this importance, you would think the hook would've came quicker for Jenks. It's not like Putz or Thornton couldn't have done the job.

LITTLE NELL
07-18-2010, 08:36 PM
I only bring this up, because it happened earlier in the series. Raucsh walked a couple and gave up a couple of runs, and Gardenhire quickly yanked him for Crain. In a game of this importance, you would think the hook would've came quicker for Jenks. It's not like Putz or Thornton couldn't have done the job.

Thornton pitched the 7th and Putz pitched the 8th.

Noneck
07-18-2010, 08:36 PM
I only bring this up, because it happened earlier in the series. Raucsh walked a couple and gave up a couple of runs, and Gardenhire quickly yanked him for Crain. In a game of this importance, you would think the hook would've came quicker for Jenks. It's not like Putz or Thornton couldn't have done the job.
Putz and Thornton already pitched.

Bobby Jenks
07-18-2010, 08:38 PM
Thorton pitched the 7th and Putz pitched the 8th.

Guess i should read the boxscore before i post. I didn't get a chance to watch the game, only saw highlights and lowlights.

soxinem1
07-18-2010, 08:39 PM
While I agree that Bobby blew it big time today, you also have to remember that these things do happen.

How many times have we seen him or another pitcher let the first two on and the next guy hits into a GIDP? Or a closer miss with his pitches then all of a sudden find the grip and close out the game?

Closers in general make things interesting, not just Bobby. The margin of error is usually thin (though not today) and a walk or hit usually represents the tying run.

A starter generally has enough of an assortment of pitches that if one is not working either he or his catcher should pick up on it. But that usually transpires over the course of innings, not minutes like in the ninth.

We should just call it a bad day and move on.

Guess i should read the boxscore before i post. I didn't get a chance to watch the game, only saw highlights and lowlights.

If anyone would have known who was in the game today, it should have been you, Bobby!!:smile:

hi im skot
07-18-2010, 08:39 PM
Guess i should read the boxscore before i post. I didn't get a chance to watch the game, only saw highlights and lowlights.

Well, that would explain why you had such a rough ninth, Mr. Jenks.

Bobby Jenks
07-18-2010, 08:47 PM
Well, that would explain why you had such a rough ninth, Mr. Jenks.

Yeah, tough day to have Bobby Jenks as a name.

SI1020
07-18-2010, 08:48 PM
This strict adherence to rigid bullpen roles puts a manager in a box at times IMHO. Today's game is a case in point. In my view it was apparent from the get go that Jenks had nothing today. Ozzie had already used Thornton and Putz. What's he going to do but hope that Bobby finds himself before he blows the game? By the time he called for Santos the game was almost lost. Tony LaRussa changed it seems forever the way relief pitchers are used in the 80's when he piloted the A's. Now you have strict roles. I don't agree at all with this philosophy and realize that I'm probably going nowhere with this argument.

Bobby Jenks
07-18-2010, 08:54 PM
I think there is value in having some pitchers in specific roles, but i do agree it's over done.Of course a guy like Jesse Orosco probably would've been done 10 years earlier if not for specialist roles. Just goes to show that you can never have enough quality arms.

Nellie_Fox
07-19-2010, 12:20 AM
Jenks was quoted after the 7-6 loss to Minny today, that he just didn't have it. Cutter was working, couldn't get this and that over, etc....

My question is this...if its apparent after the first couple of hitters that things aren't working (and I'm assuming it is).... wouldn't the catcher
have some sort of sign with the dugout, and signal this to either the manager and/or pitching coach to a)try to make an adjustment or
b) take him the hell out of there and someone else in.

I've seen this more than once with Jenks where, he's left in there for three of four hitters when things just aren't clicking. By the time they
took him out of there, he had not gotten anyone out and have given up two straight walks and two straight hits, and you had the feeling the
game was already blownWhen you bring your closer in, you don't have someone else up and throwing. That would show a lack of confidence. The closer is expected to be the last pitcher you're going to need. Even if the catcher signaled over fairly quickly, it still takes a while to get someone else up and ready.

Stephen Jaworski
07-19-2010, 07:16 AM
There is an immediate solution: PUTZ.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/dave_nicholson_autograph.jpg

doublem23
07-19-2010, 07:49 AM
There is an immediate solution: PUTZ.

Or just chilling the **** out and not overreacting to everything so blindly. You take Putz out of the 7th/8th inning role he's been so good at this year and you potentially hurt the bullpen in another area. I know Bobby's struggled at times this year, but at other times he's been effective.

1 loss won't make or break this season. Take a minute and step back off the ledge.

balke
07-19-2010, 10:51 AM
Or just chilling the **** out and not overreacting to everything so blindly. You take Putz out of the 7th/8th inning role he's been so good at this year and you potentially hurt the bullpen in another area. I know Bobby's struggled at times this year, but at other times he's been effective.

1 loss won't make or break this season. Take a minute and step back off the ledge.


Bobby won the first game of the series for the Sox. Inherited Bases loaded jam in the 8th - struck out Thome to win it in the 9th. The reactions to yesterday's game are flat out embarrassing.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/rosenblog/2010/07/are-the-sox-scouting-a-hitter-when-they-might-need-a-closer.html

Stuff being written like by this idiot. The Sox have 3 guys who can close...


"The unfortunate thing about character is that it gets revealed the most when things seems to be the worst. "

Applies more to himself than Bobby I'd say.

BleacherBandit
07-19-2010, 10:53 AM
If you relieve Jenks of his duties as closer you're either going to replace him with Thornton or Putz and that makes the Sox all the more weaker in the seventh and eighth innings. Be logical here--Jenks is consistent enough to be our full-time closer. If yesterday mirrored every other outing by him I'd be asking to replace Jenks too, but it isn't that way.

southside rocks
07-19-2010, 01:04 PM
If you relieve Jenks of his duties as closer you're either going to replace him with Thornton or Putz and that makes the Sox all the more weaker in the seventh and eighth innings. Be logical here--Jenks is consistent enough to be our full-time closer. If yesterday mirrored every other outing by him I'd be asking to replace Jenks too, but it isn't that way.

Yes. And not only that, but ANY pitcher you put into the closer spot is going to have an off day now and then. Brad Lidge's 2008 season, when he converted all 48 save opportunities, was amazing. It was not SOP for a closer. :rolleyes:

MetroPD
07-19-2010, 01:38 PM
put jenks in the 7th or 8th spot. Maybe the strain of being the last man standing is becoming more than he can bare at the current moment.

TDog
07-19-2010, 01:48 PM
I only bring this up, because it happened earlier in the series. Raucsh walked a couple and gave up a couple of runs, and Gardenhire quickly yanked him for Crain. In a game of this importance, you would think the hook would've came quicker for Jenks. It's not like Putz or Thornton couldn't have done the job.

Rauch's case was different. There was a big lead. He was in to close out the game, but he wasn't in to save the game. It didn't take long for Crain to get loose. I don't know if he was up earlier.

Because Garcia could only go six, Putz had the seventh, Thornton the eighth and Jenks the ninth. It was pretty much ordered so that Jenks had better matchups than he would have had had he pitched the eighth.

Maybe Guillen could have gone to Santos in the seventh instead of putting his three most closing-capable pitchers in each of the last three innings. But Santos is the least experienced of the lot. You don't know how he would have done in the seventh, or ninth for that matter.

You probably weren't suggesting the Sox use Pena, Linebrink or Threets for the save.

jdm2662
07-19-2010, 02:18 PM
Rauch's case was different. There was a big lead. He was in to close out the game, but he wasn't in to save the game. It didn't take long for Crain to get loose. I don't know if he was up earlier.


People are acting like Rauch was pulled right away. He left with the bases loaded, AND after giving up two runs and walking three guys. The difference was the lead was five and not three, and Crain came in and got Rios and Konerko out. NO TEAM is going to have a guy ready after their closer walked the first two guys.

russ99
07-19-2010, 02:22 PM
I'm really starting to dislike how our fans overreact. One thing goes wrong and everyone flips their lid.

It happens, it's baseball. Every closer blows saves, and has days when his stuff doesn't work. Bobby didn't just flip a switch to "sucks".

He's still a good closer. Maybe not worth his inflated contract, but that's besides the point.

Do you really think Thornton or Putz can handle the pressure and do a better job? They may look good in the 7th and 8th, but closing requires a whole different mindset.

BleacherBandit
07-19-2010, 02:31 PM
put jenks in the 7th or 8th spot. Maybe the strain of being the last man standing is becoming more than he can bare at the current moment.


Jenks is extremely shaky in any situation other than a save, I think we all know that. He needs the stress in order to perform.

TDog
07-19-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm really starting to dislike how our fans overreact. One thing goes wrong and everyone flips their lid.

It happens, it's baseball. Every closer blows saves, and has days when his stuff doesn't work. Bobby didn't just flip a switch to "sucks".

He's still a good closer. Maybe not worth his inflated contract, but that's besides the point.

Do you really think Thornton or Putz can handle the pressure and do a better job? They may look good in the 7th and 8th, but closing requires a whole different mindset.

Sunday's game was an isolated incident. Jenks has had a few bad games. Putz has had a few bad games. Thornton has had a few bad games. A few days ago, you would think Thornton's career was over because he gave up a two-out walk and a bases-clearing double in a game where only one other player on the field was wearing a White Sox uniform. With a few exceptions, relievers have bad games. Ask Dennis Eckersley about Kirk Gibson or Bobby Thigpen about Lee Stevens. I still haven't forgotten that outing during his 57-save season.

I don't think the pressure would be an issue with any of the three, although it might be with Santos. Jenks, of course, has two World Series saves. He has a World Series blown save, but also pitched scoreless innings in an extra-inning World Series game on the road. But some days you can't throw strikes and/or your stuff isn't good enough to get out hitters if you do throw strikes.

Just as I can't let the Lee Steven things go, fans overreact to the bad games. All-Star closer Brian Wilson came in with one out and one on with a three-run lead in the ninth in relief of Tim Lincecum early this season, and fans are still complaining about how the Giants lost that game in extra innings because the Giants don't have a decent closer.

sullythered
07-19-2010, 03:03 PM
It's sometimes kind of embarrassing that our fans overreact to the bad stuff just as much as cub fans overreact to the good.

kjhanson
07-19-2010, 05:14 PM
I only bring this up, because it happened earlier in the series. Raucsh walked a couple and gave up a couple of runs, and Gardenhire quickly yanked him for Crain.

Well, you only bring it up for a completely invalid reason then because it took 23 pitches for Rauch to get pulled, including three walks and six total batters. Jenks was also yanked after 23 pitchers to four batters. Gardenhire was no better at handling a closer than Ozzie was yesterday. Sorry.

MountainCur
07-22-2010, 12:11 AM
we are not there yet - but you know we have to have a plan on what to do if this become a trend.

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2010, 12:18 AM
I'm not on the "release Jenks" bandwagon, but I think it's time to try something else and have Bobby prove himself in another role for a while.

Stephen Jaworski
07-22-2010, 05:27 AM
To all of the Bobby Jenks sycophants that congregate here: It's time for Chubby Choker to twist his butt onto the MLB waiver wire.

His ERA and WHIP (5.09 and 1.58) are the WORST among all closers with 15 or more saves. During the last month, after a fluke stretch of brilliance in June, Jenks has regressed into a putrid 7.27/1.62 pile of pennant-killing incompetence.

Bring back Billy Koch. Send out a transcontinental SOS for Shingo. But abort the failed BJ experiment, Mr. Williams. His arm is kaput. So is his brain.

:angry:

mccoydp
07-22-2010, 06:03 AM
To all of the Bobby Jenks sycophants that congregate here: It's time for Chubby Choker to twist his butt onto the MLB waiver wire.

His ERA and WHIP (5.09 and 1.58) are the WORST among all closers with 15 or more saves. During the last month, after a fluke stretch of brilliance in June, Jenks has regressed into a putrid 7.27/1.62 pile of pennant-killing incompetence.

Bring back Billy Koch. Send out a transcontinental SOS for Shingo. But abort the failed BJ experiment, Mr. Williams. His arm is kaput. So is his brain.

:angry:

Bobby's had a few rough outings, but in no way has he been a detriment to the Sox's division, pennant, and World Series hopes since 2005. He was one of the bright spots on the horrible 2007 team, and I don't think the inability of the 2006 team to win the division was due in any part to Bobby's performance. He surely was an asset to the 2008 team, and we all know why the 2009 team fell apart after Mark's perfect game. A survey of Bobby's stats shows that he'll typically lose 3-5 games a year and blow 4-5 saves per year, on average.

soltrain21
07-22-2010, 07:23 AM
I'm really starting to dislike how our fans overreact. One thing goes wrong and everyone flips their lid.

It happens, it's baseball. Every closer blows saves, and has days when his stuff doesn't work. Bobby didn't just flip a switch to "sucks".

He's still a good closer. Maybe not worth his inflated contract, but that's besides the point.

Do you really think Thornton or Putz can handle the pressure and do a better job? They may look good in the 7th and 8th, but closing requires a whole different mindset.

On Putz specifically, um. Yes.

doublem23
07-22-2010, 07:58 AM
On Putz specifically, um. Yes.

Are people unaware that JJ Putz was an All-Star closer for the Mariners in 2007?

His 2006-2007 seasons in Seattle, before he started to experience the arm problems he has since recovered from...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/putzjj01.shtml#2006-2007-sum:pitching_simple

ewokpelts
07-22-2010, 11:23 AM
dfa junks