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Lillian
07-16-2010, 10:56 PM
He struggled when he got promoted to AAA, but he has really put it together. He has at least one extra base hit in each of his last 6 games, including 6 doubles, 2 triples and a homer.
He's hitting .421 in his last 10 games, and is now over .300 at Charlotte, after hitting .326 at Birmingham.
Given his very good defense, do you think he might be next year's pick for third?
If Viciedo is ready to play full time next year, would he be able to hold down first base?

Coops4Aces
07-16-2010, 11:25 PM
He struggled when he got promoted to AAA, but he has really put it together. He has at least one extra base hit in each of his last 6 games, including 6 doubles, 2 triples and a homer.
He's hitting .421 in his last 10 games, and is now over .300 at Charlotte, after hitting .326 at Birmingham.
Given his very good defense, do you think he might be next year's pick for third?
If Viciedo is ready to play full time next year, would he be able to hold down first base?

It'd be awesome if Morel was ready for 3rd next year. But Viciedo at first is another no thanks. That guy has DH written all over him. But so does Quentin. So who knows what happens to Dayan. But back on topic, Morel at 3rd would be awesome :thumbsup:

JermaineDye05
07-16-2010, 11:34 PM
Sounds like a trading chip for the deadline.

Frater Perdurabo
07-17-2010, 08:15 AM
Sounds like a trading chip for the deadline.

For an experienced third baseman who is a good fielder and hits well? OK

I'm not interested in another lost decade of revolving doors at the hot corner.

DirtySox
07-17-2010, 10:32 AM
Sounds like a trading chip for the deadline.

Bingo. Not excited about losing him, but he's definitely being dangled as trade bait.

TomBradley72
07-17-2010, 11:05 AM
Morel-Ramirez-Beckham-Viciedo would be a young/cheap infield for a few years...which could free up salary for pitching or AJ's successor.

I think Viciedo could develop into a decent 1st baseman...he's only 21.

Tragg
07-17-2010, 11:29 AM
Great ....let's find some declining veteran to trade him for.

One might note that the SOX have no real 3rd baseman.

DirtySox
07-17-2010, 11:35 AM
Great ....let's find some declining veteran to trade him for.

One might note that the SOX have no real 3rd baseman.

Pretty much.

I'd love Morel on the Sox, but the organization has no ammo for a trade. Flowers and Jordan Danks have little value currently. The rest of the farm system is devoid of anything but fringe prospects and potential relief arms.

Any impact trade/addition is contingent on at least one of Hudson/Viciedo/Morel.

Craig Grebeck
07-17-2010, 11:48 AM
I'd rather not trade Morel.

Tragg
07-17-2010, 12:33 PM
Any impact trade/addition is contingent on at least one of Hudson/Viciedo/Morel.
That's true. We have 3 prospects and probably shouldn't trade any of them because we have so few.

I will point out that we traded 3 prospects for Swisher; yet, when we traded Javy plus Logan, we got one legit prospect (we had zeroed in on ONE prospect, and even threw Logan in to make sure we got him). When we traded Swisher away, we got none (not even one we thought as a prospect at the time). That's why I don't like the Sox trading prospects. It's a mess. I wonder if Arizona would trade Chris YOung for Flowers.

And contrary to cw, there are several around the league we've traded away who could help this team right now.

Pablo_Honey
07-17-2010, 01:21 PM
I've been a big fan of Morel since the moment he got drafted so I'm definitely biased to say this, but I don't think the Sox should trade Morel. He is the only true third baseman we have and his bat is coming around pretty nicely although it's not exactly spectacular. Viciedo will end up at either first or DH so we will need to have someone at third. I know we have Teahen locked up for 2 more years:whiner:but he's not inspiring any confidence in me and I think Morel can at least put up Teahen's numbers while providing great defence. The only instance where the Sox should trade Morel is if they are trading for a proven veteran at third who is still in the thick of his prime. Otherwise, I'd rather see them keep him.

oeo
07-17-2010, 01:26 PM
Keep in mind that the Sox told Morel that when he's ready, the 3B job is pretty much his. Teahen, even with his extension, will not be a roadblock. There's an interview from a month or so ago where he mentions this. He was asked how he felt about being stuck behind Teahen, and apparently they basically told him not to worry about it, he's going to be their guy.

Sox may be higher on Morel than you think. That doesn't mean Kenny won't deal him, he'll deal anyone, but I don't think it's as likely as you guys are making it seem.

JermaineDye05
07-17-2010, 01:33 PM
Keep in mind that the Sox told Morel that when he's ready, the 3B job is pretty much his. Teahen, even with his extension, will not be a roadblock. There's an interview from a month or so ago where he mentions this. He was asked how he felt about being stuck behind Teahen, and apparently they basically told him not to worry about it, he's going to be their guy.

Sox may be higher on Morel than you think. That doesn't mean Kenny won't deal him, he'll deal anyone, but I don't think it's as likely as you guys are making it seem.

How about Morel switches jerseys with Mark and then when we bring Teahen off the DL, what looks like Teahen will actually be Brent Morel and then we can trade the fake Brent Morel (Teahen) to Washington for Adam Dunn

cards press box
07-17-2010, 04:30 PM
I'd rather not trade Morel.

I agree.

tm1119
07-17-2010, 07:01 PM
Morel-Ramirez-Beckham-Viciedo would be a young/cheap infield for a few years...which could free up salary for pitching or AJ's successor.

I think Viciedo could develop into a decent 1st baseman...he's only 21.


We have AJ's successor in Flowers already, and Floyd, Danks, Peavy, and Buehrle are all under team control for the next few years with Hudson being a strong candidate as well. I have a strong feeling that at least 1 of Dayan or Morel will be traded at the deadline. Not for a rental though, not Kenny's style. I'm hoping for a surprise trade that brings us a good OF under contract for at least a little while. Dayan, Morel, and Jor. Danks could net us a pretty good arb. eligible player that a non contending team doesnt want to pay.

voodoochile
07-17-2010, 07:10 PM
We have AJ's successor in Flowers already, and Floyd, Danks, Peavy, and Buehrle are all under team control for the next few years with Hudson being a strong candidate as well. I have a strong feeling that at least 1 of Dayan or Morel will be traded at the deadline. Not for a rental though, not Kenny's style. I'm hoping for a surprise trade that brings us a good OF under contract for at least a little while. Dayan, Morel, and Jor. Danks could net us a pretty good arb. eligible player that a non contending team doesnt want to pay.

You sure about that? I mean the guy's showing some pop with a .482 slg in AAA but he's also hitting .232 with 95 K's in less than 300 PA...

Daver
07-17-2010, 07:15 PM
You sure about that? I mean the guy's showing some pop with a .482 slg in AAA but he's also hitting .232 with 95 K's in less than 300 PA...

He also has no business wearing the tools at the MLB level, not that the White Sox put any stock in being able to field your position, they went into the season with Mark Teahen playing third base.

tm1119
07-17-2010, 08:19 PM
You sure about that? I mean the guy's showing some pop with a .482 slg in AAA but he's also hitting .232 with 95 K's in less than 300 PA...

This is a down year for him, as his lowest average in any other minor league season is .279(his 1st). Even so, .230/.330/.484 with 25 hr's is > than any line AJ has put up in a White Sox uniform. AJ cant get on base or hit for any kind of power, Flowers has good patience and has + power for a catcher. Plus flowers hit .122 in the month of May. Take that away and his average looks much better.

And as long as Flowers is capable of stopping the ball behind the plate he wont be far behind AJ's defense. AJ's defense is horribly overrated. He cant throw anybody out to save his life and we have a good, experienced pitching staff that doesnt need to rely on a catcher.

I personally feel fairly confident in letting AJ walk after this season and penciling Flowers into our starting lineup next year.

Daver
07-17-2010, 08:54 PM
This is a down year for him, as his lowest average in any other minor league season is .279(his 1st). Even so, .230/.330/.484 with 25 hr's is > than any line AJ has put up in a White Sox uniform. AJ cant get on base or hit for any kind of power, Flowers has good patience and has + power for a catcher. Plus flowers hit .122 in the month of May. Take that away and his average looks much better.

And as long as Flowers is capable of stopping the ball behind the plate he wont be far behind AJ's defense. AJ's defense is horribly overrated. He cant throw anybody out to save his life and we have a good, experienced pitching staff that doesnt need to rely on a catcher.

I personally feel fairly confident in letting AJ walk after this season and penciling Flowers into our starting lineup next year.

AJ is not a good defensive catcher, but Flowers will make you long for the days when AJ was providing his skills behind the plate, there is a lot more involved in the position than blocking balls and throwing out runners.

tm1119
07-17-2010, 09:50 PM
AJ is not a good defensive catcher, but Flowers will make you long for the days when AJ was providing his skills behind the plate, there is a lot more involved in the position than blocking balls and throwing out runners.

I fully understand that, and I admittedly haven't seen him catch at all so Im basing this completely what I have read recently. I know Merkin has said that he feels Flowers can be a league average defender. As has John Sickles. Which should be fine if he can hit 25 hrs and get on base at a good rate as he has shown in the minors.

Daver
07-17-2010, 10:20 PM
I fully understand that, and I admittedly haven't seen him catch at all so Im basing this completely what I have read recently. I know Merkin has said that he feels Flowers can be a league average defender. As has John Sickles. Which should be fine if he can hit 25 hrs and get on base at a good rate as he has shown in the minors.I prefer not to let other people form my opinions for me, most of the time when you do that you set yourself up to look like a fool.

AJ brings an aspect to the table that Flowers will never ever be able to comprehend, that alone makes him more valuable than Flowers ever will be, even if he hits for a .500 average for five years.

tm1119
07-17-2010, 10:48 PM
I prefer not to let other people form my opinions for me, most of the time when you do that you set yourself up to look like a fool.

AJ brings an aspect to the table that Flowers will never ever be able to comprehend, that alone makes him more valuable than Flowers ever will be, even if he hits for a .500 average for five
years.

you or I haven't seen nearly enough of Flowers
behind the plate to form a valid opinion so I don't know why you are speaking as if your opinion is fact. And professional baseball writers usually do know a lot more about baseball than the average fan(yourself)

and what is this great attribute AJ posses? Cause it certainly isn't skill or ralent. Let me guess, it's his grindiness?

Hitmen77
07-18-2010, 12:13 AM
I'd rather not trade Morel.

I agree. But that's the million dollar question for Kenny: Do you trade away Morel if it can land you a power bat and go for broke this year?

I know some people think all of our prospects turn out to be garbage, but at some point this organization is going to have to develop some of its own talent to be a consistent contender. Good fielding and hitting 3Bs are hard to come by.

Jeff B
07-18-2010, 12:21 AM
you or I haven't seen nearly enough of Flowers
behind the plate to form a valid opinion so I don't know why you are speaking as if your opinion is fact. And professional baseball writers usually do know a lot more about baseball than the average fan(yourself)

and what is this great attribute AJ posses? Cause it certainly isn't skill or ralent. Let me guess, it's his grindiness?
Of course. Didn't you know that baseball is one part skill, one part luck and eight parts grindiness?

DirtySox
07-18-2010, 12:27 AM
Of course. Didn't you know that baseball is one part skill, one part luck and eight parts grindiness?

One can only hope that Flowers has been working on his temper tantrums and bat slamming after bad AB's. Grinder shoes are tough to fill.

KRS1
07-18-2010, 12:47 AM
I prefer not to let other people form my opinions for me, most of the time when you do that you set yourself up to look like a fool.

AJ brings an aspect to the table that Flowers will never ever be able to comprehend, that alone makes him more valuable than Flowers ever will be, even if he hits for a .500 average for five years.

Man, I swear you'd be happy with elite defense on a .100 hitter behind the plate. I too wore the tools the vast majority of my time playing all the way through high school and a couple years of rec league, but the game just doesn't value defense enough behind the plate to make up for crap hitting anymore. I'll say one thing about Tyler, this camp his pop and fire down to second was unbelievably better than what I saw from his AFL and previous Spring. Not 1.6 good, but more than adequate and he's throwing out a hair under half of all base stealers this season, so... Not much in the mobility or positioning department, but he seems smart enough to grow his awareness there. Average defense means a lot more than it used to, maybe not how we would have it, but it is what it is and in a league where every position now values the bat over the glove, you go with the flow or risk getting stomped out with the dinosaurs. Kids these days are too protected to develop behind the plate like they used to, and good D + a good bat are needles in a haystack.

...
07-18-2010, 08:04 AM
Man, I swear you'd be happy with elite defense on a .100 hitter behind the plate. I too wore the tools the vast majority of my time playing all the way through high school and a couple years of rec league, but the game just doesn't value defense enough behind the plate to make up for crap hitting anymore. I'll say one thing about Tyler, this camp his pop and fire down to second was unbelievably better than what I saw from his AFL and previous Spring. Not 1.6 good, but more than adequate and he's throwing out a hair under half of all base stealers this season, so... Not much in the mobility or positioning department, but he seems smart enough to grow his awareness there. Average defense means a lot more than it used to, maybe not how we would have it, but it is what it is and in a league where every position now values the bat over the glove, you go with the flow or risk getting stomped out with the dinosaurs. Kids these days are too protected to develop behind the plate like they used to, and good D + a good bat are needles in a haystack.

He doesn't call his own game like Daver did in high school! Flowers suxxxx!!!

Tragg
07-18-2010, 10:35 AM
I agree. But that's the million dollar question for Kenny: Do you trade away Morel if it can land you a power bat and go for broke this year?

I know some people think all of our prospects turn out to be garbage, but at some point this organization is going to have to develop some of it's own talent to be a consistent contender. Good fielding and hitting 3Bs are hard to come by.

IMO you get your best chance to win a WS by getting yourself into the playoffs consistently and as often as you can. That will take development of young players.

tm1119
07-18-2010, 11:10 AM
IMO you get your best chance to win a WS by getting yourself into the playoffs consistently and as often as you can. That will take development of young players.

Or you trade those unproven prospects for more proven players like KW has in the past. Serious question, Has KW ever traded for a rent-a-player? Griffey is the only 1 that comes to my mind, but he doesnt really count since he was more or less given to us. Kenny seems to always be able to trade for players that we can keep(peavy, rios, Q, gavin, ect...). I dont see how anyone could complain if we traded Morel and others(not named Hudson or Mitchell) for an established player under 30 that is under control for the next few years.

TomBradley72
07-18-2010, 11:18 AM
And as long as Flowers is capable of stopping the ball behind the plate he wont be far behind AJ's defense. AJ's defense is horribly overrated. He cant throw anybody out to save his life and we have a good, experienced pitching staff that doesnt need to rely on a catcher.

I personally feel fairly confident in letting AJ walk after this season and penciling Flowers into our starting lineup next year.

His caught stealing pct. is up this year, tough to throw guys out when you have starters like Contreras (up until last august), Floyd, Garcia, etc. who aren't the best at holding runners on.

The rest of his overall defense is above average, he calls the pitches (vs. Cooper or OG)...the idea that veteran pitchers don't rely on a veteran catcher is ridiculous. So Danks, Floyd and Hudson won't need a veteran catcher? Santos & Pena? Doesn't make sense.

Not way do we replace a proven veteran with a guy who can't put together a solid AAA season. I hope we re-sign AJ to a 2-3 year deal...over time of the contract...phase in Flowers or someone else.

DirtySox
07-18-2010, 11:37 AM
Not way do we replace a proven veteran with a guy who can't put together a solid AAA season. I hope we re-sign AJ to a 2-3 year deal...over time of the contract...phase in Flowers or someone else.

I don't know if Flowers is the answer. He certainly hasn't shown he should be replacing anyone just yet. Resigning AJ right now though seems like a terrible idea, especially to a 3 year deal. I wouldn't be too upset at a 1 year deal. He's showing all the signs of a decline right now, and why is that deserved of a multi-year contract? I'd much rather let him walk and explore what else is out there.

KMcMahon817
07-18-2010, 12:34 PM
I don't know if Flowers is the answer. He certainly hasn't shown he should be replacing anyone just yet. Resigning AJ right now though seems like a terrible idea, especially to a 3 year deal. I wouldn't be too upset at a 1 year deal. He's showing all the signs of a decline right now, and why is that deserved of a multi-year contract? I'd much rather let him walk and explore what else is out there.

I haven't look recently, but I am pretty sure the stock of FA catchers after this year declines significantly after AJ.

delben91
07-18-2010, 12:46 PM
Can Morel replace Pierre at leadoff? Two birds with one stone! :tongue:

TomBradley72
07-18-2010, 03:43 PM
I don't know if Flowers is the answer. He certainly hasn't shown he should be replacing anyone just yet. Resigning AJ right now though seems like a terrible idea, especially to a 3 year deal. I wouldn't be too upset at a 1 year deal. He's showing all the signs of a decline right now, and why is that deserved of a multi-year contract? I'd much rather let him walk and explore what else is out there.

Yes...3 is a stretch...I'd be OK with 2, with the idea that he is helping bring his replacement along in year 2...as part of the overall transition.

DirtySox
07-18-2010, 03:51 PM
Yes...3 is a stretch...I'd be OK with 2, with the idea that he is helping bring his replacement along in year 2...as part of the overall transition.

I think I would be okay with two, depending on the dollar amount. I'm not sure how AJ would cope with having to bring along his replacement though. (If Flowers rebounds that is)

Pablo_Honey
07-18-2010, 04:05 PM
Eek, I'd rather give Flowers a shot and pick up a veteran catcher at deadline (which shouldn't be THAT hard compared to acquiring a middle-of-the-order bat) than giving AJ a multi-year contract. Catchers wear out very fast and AJ's been taking some beating over the years. Just look at Jorge Posada after that hefty extension. His bat has been fine but his health is starting to become a conern.

California Sox
07-19-2010, 09:12 AM
Flowers is having a down year but AJ has a .289 OBP. That just kills you. Maybe a one year contract but only for his game calling skills. Even as bad as Flowers has been, he is not worse than AJ has been.

Vestigio
07-19-2010, 09:37 AM
Keep in mind that the Sox told Morel that when he's ready, the 3B job is pretty much his. Teahen, even with his extension, will not be a roadblock. There's an interview from a month or so ago where he mentions this. He was asked how he felt about being stuck behind Teahen, and apparently they basically told him not to worry about it, he's going to be their guy.

Sox may be higher on Morel than you think. That doesn't mean Kenny won't deal him, he'll deal anyone, but I don't think it's as likely as you guys are making it seem.

Sounds awfully like the time when Gio was traded to the A's. KW promised Gio that he would not traded a 2nd time, only to see him head to OAK for Swisher. I wouldnt hold my breath that Morel wont get traded. If KW is blown away by a trade offer, but he would have to give up Morel+, I would assume he'd pull the trigger

TomBradley72
07-19-2010, 09:57 AM
Flowers is having a down year but AJ has a .289 OBP. That just kills you. Maybe a one year contract but only for his game calling skills. Even as bad as Flowers has been, he is not worse than AJ has been.

Flowers is on track for 189 strike outs over 500 ABs at AAA....I think counting on him to be anything more than a back up in 2011 is a stretch.

palehozenychicty
07-19-2010, 01:39 PM
Morel-Ramirez-Beckham-Viciedo would be a young/cheap infield for a few years...which could free up salary for pitching or AJ's successor.

I think Viciedo could develop into a decent 1st baseman...he's only 21.

I'd keep Morel. At some point, you need a guy to come through your system and allocate resources elsewhere.

voodoochile
07-19-2010, 02:11 PM
I fully understand that, and I admittedly haven't seen him catch at all so Im basing this completely what I have read recently. I know Merkin has said that he feels Flowers can be a league average defender. As has John Sickles. Which should be fine if he can hit 25 hrs and get on base at a good rate as he has shown in the minors.

The question is, will his power hold up in the pros? If he is striking out over 1/3 of the time he bats in AAA, that will get worse when he starts facing the pitchers a tier above anything he's ever faced and they'll quickly figure out what he can and can't hit and he'll stop seeing the stuff he can and then things will get bad. In AAA Torres is a #2 pitcher. He probably won't ever be anything but long relief in the majors if that.

I hope Flowers can get it together, but expecting it and then penning (not penciling - because if you make that decision, you're stuck with it, no do overs) him in as the starter next year could be a mistake of epic proportions. More so given how much the Sox are going to be relying on their pitching to win these next 3 years...

oeo
07-19-2010, 02:19 PM
Sounds awfully like the time when Gio was traded to the A's. KW promised Gio that he would not traded a 2nd time, only to see him head to OAK for Swisher. I wouldnt hold my breath that Morel wont get traded. If KW is blown away by a trade offer, but he would have to give up Morel+, I would assume he'd pull the trigger

I never said the Sox said they would never trade him, but that they're higher on him than people tend to think.

hawkjt
07-20-2010, 11:18 AM
At this point,unless Kenny gets bowled over by an offer, I hope he stands pat. I tend to be a homer,but I do like our young corp of players in Alexei,Carlos,Gordo,Viciedo,Lillibridge,with Morel,Flowers,Mitchell and Sales coming along.

A. I just do not think the Sox absolutely need to make a move to win this soft division this year.
B. If you make the playoffs, and you have starters like Danks,Floyd,MB and Big Game, you have a punchers chance.

I definitely could see re-signing PK and AJ for a couple of years,but then could see an infield of Morel,Alexei,Gordo,Viciedo(he has very soft hands),with Flowers behind the plate, Mitchell in right,Rios,Juan in center and left, with Carlos at dh...with our pitching staff, that would be a soft landing in a transition period.

Sockinchisox
07-21-2010, 11:21 PM
Morel has suffered a torn labrum in his left shoulder. He should still continue to play but will have surgery at the end of the year.

http://twitter.com/FutureSox/status/19227394853

mzh
07-22-2010, 12:15 AM
Morel has suffered a torn labrum in his left shoulder. He should still continue to play but will have surgery at the end of the year.

http://twitter.com/FutureSox/status/19227394853
****. Will it affect him now? and why isn't he having surgery now?

Pablo_Honey
07-22-2010, 12:48 AM
****. Will it affect him now? and why isn't he having surgery now?
Yeah, why the **** are they letting him play with a TORN muscle? At least let him freaking rehab first.

Btw, we are having some **** luck with our top prospects this year. First Mitchell is out for season; then Phegley, Holmberg and Thompson go down with injuries; and now Morel. This is just some bad bad luck.

PolishPrince34
07-22-2010, 06:19 AM
I don't believe Holmberg is injured he threw 6 shutout innings 3 days ago in Rookie Ball. Huge loss with Morel this will hurt his defense.

doublem23
07-22-2010, 08:24 AM
Yeah, why the **** are they letting him play with a TORN muscle? At least let him freaking rehab first.

Btw, we are having some **** luck with our top prospects this year. First Mitchell is out for season; then Phegley, Holmberg and Thompson go down with injuries; and now Morel. This is just some bad bad luck.

The labrum is not a muscle.

thedudeabides
07-22-2010, 08:55 AM
I don't believe Holmberg is injured he threw 6 shutout innings 3 days ago in Rookie Ball. Huge loss with Morel this will hurt his defense.

How will it hurt his defense? It's in his left shoulder.

There are different types of labrum tears with varying degrees of severity, and to his non throwing shoulder, it shouldn't get worse. If they are letting him continue to play it is probably just a partial tear or fraying. If he has surgury it will probably be a small arthroscpoic procedure that he can fully recover from in two months. So there is no real reason to shut him down.

I guarantee every pitcher in baseball at least has some fraying on the labrum.

I've had a partial tear in my left labrum for ten years. I'm obviously not a professional athlete, but it hasn't stopped me from lifting weights, running, swimming, or playing any recreational sports.

Pablo_Honey
07-22-2010, 01:01 PM
I don't believe Holmberg is injured he threw 6 shutout innings 3 days ago in Rookie Ball.
Well I know he's healthy now but I could've sworn I read that all our top picks from last years' draft suffered at some point in the season. Could be wrong but still we are having some bad luck with health this season.

The labrum is not a muscle.
Oops, did not know that. Whenever something is torn, I automatically assume it is some kind of muscle that is damaged. The more you know, I guess. :redface: