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SCCWS
07-08-2010, 09:54 AM
There was a lot of unrest on these boards about a month ago. Many of us wanted changes. There were a ton of campaigns going:

1. Fire Ozzie
2. Fire Kenny
3. Fire Walker
4. Fire Coop
5. Trade TCQ
6. Trade Jenks
7 Trade Alexei
8. Trade Pierre
9 Dump Kotsay and Jones
10. Redo the Teahan trade
11 Fire Everyone

Now in hindsight, was it a case of a lot of players in a slump? Alexei has totally turned his offense around. TCQ and Pierre are hitting much better. Has Walker finally contributed or was it the players all along? Jenks, Putz, Thornton and the starters have been lights out. Coop finally contributing?
Ozzie must be doing something right because this team is playing as good as anyone in baseball---the offense defense and pitching all falling into place. Even the farm is part of the revival. Viciedo and Lillibridge came up and are contributing.
At this point maybe Kenny is still on the hot seat because the Sox need another bat. But this team has gone from rags to riches in a month. Good none of us were in charge.

soltrain21
07-08-2010, 09:57 AM
The Teahen trade still doesn't make sense.

Sam Spade
07-08-2010, 09:59 AM
The only one of those things I would have done was dumped kotsay/jones, but I wouldn't do it unless I had someone better. I would still do it.

pythons007
07-08-2010, 10:00 AM
I was one of the few trying to calm people down on these boards with fire everybody and this team blows BS.

I do agree the Teahen deal could be redone.

Sam Spade
07-08-2010, 10:00 AM
I still think the Teahen trade could have been a good move. The resigning was premature, however.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 10:01 AM
I would still fire Walker, dump Kotsay/Jones, and dump Teahen.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 10:02 AM
The Teahen trade still doesn't make sense.

The only thing good about the Teahen deal is that we turned 2 pieces of crap into 1. Progress?

The extension, however, is mind-bottling.

hawkjt
07-08-2010, 10:11 AM
Again, writing off a player,like Teahen, before he really has shown his talents.
Ironic that the topic is premature rash baseball decisions,and yet some persist in continuing to engage in that.

Teahen did not forget how to hit overnite. His glove is clanky at third but I predict he will prove to be very valuable down the stretch as a lefty DH and utility guy...a la Geoff Blum.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 10:14 AM
Again, writing off a player,like Teahen, before he really has shown his talents.
Ironic that the topic is premature rash baseball decisions,and yet some persist in continuing to engage in that.

Teahen did not forget how to hit overnite. His glove is clanky at third but I predict he will prove to be very valuable down the stretch as a lefty DH and utility guy...a la Geoff Blum.

You'll have to refer me to the point in time when Teahen ever knew how to hit. One good season in his career, 4 years ago. He must just be long, long overdue right?

I have no doubt that he'd make an OK utilityman but he's a giant waste of payroll for $14 M over the next 2 1/2 years. The Sox could have found plenty of players who can't field their position or hit worth **** for a fraction of the price. Only 403 games left on that extension!!! :bandance:

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 10:20 AM
There was a lot of unrest on these boards about a month ago. Many of us wanted changes. There were a ton of campaigns going:

1. Fire Ozzie
2. Fire Kenny
3. Fire Walker
4. Fire Coop
5. Trade TCQ
6. Trade Jenks
7 Trade Alexei
8. Trade Pierre
9 Dump Kotsay and Jones
10. Redo the Teahan trade
11 Fire Everyone

Now in hindsight, was it a case of a lot of players in a slump? Alexei has totally turned his offense around. TCQ and Pierre are hitting much better. Has Walker finally contributed or was it the players all along? Jenks, Putz, Thornton and the starters have been lights out. Coop finally contributing?
Ozzie must be doing something right because this team is playing as good as anyone in baseball---the offense defense and pitching all falling into place. Even the farm is part of the revival. Viciedo and Lillibridge came up and are contributing.
At this point maybe Kenny is still on the hot seat because the Sox need another bat. But this team has gone from rags to riches in a month. Good none of us were in charge.


I was in the camp for the bolded ones above....feeling pretty foolish (but happy) today.

Never saw a problem with the Teahen trade since we gave up nothing of value...the extension is still a "MacDougal" like mistake.

Still don't see Jones as making much of a contribution...he's been a <.200 hitter now for 3 years/600+ ABs.

I can honestly say I never gave up on Alexei, TCQ or Jenks.

Firing coach's in mid season rarely has much of an impact.

Sam Spade
07-08-2010, 10:22 AM
I argued a pretty hard case for Jenks return to past performance. In hindsight, it was a huge waste of time. By being right, I've gained absolutely nothing.

soltrain21
07-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Again, writing off a player,like Teahen, before he really has shown his talents.
Ironic that the topic is premature rash baseball decisions,and yet some persist in continuing to engage in that.

Teahen did not forget how to hit overnite. His glove is clanky at third but I predict he will prove to be very valuable down the stretch as a lefty DH and utility guy...a la Geoff Blum.

He shouldn't be making that much money if that's his role, then. And he isn't good enough for any other role. Therefore - he is making way more than he should.

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 10:27 AM
The Teahen trade still doesn't make sense.

What was wrong with the trade? Getz and Fields wouldn't be on this team anyway.

khan
07-08-2010, 10:28 AM
Getting rich [in part] due to playing ****ty little-boy NL teams doesn't change my mind about the stupidity of the Teahen re-signing.

It also doesn't change my mind about the stupid choice of Kotsay/Jones over Thome. [By extension, the SOX's proclivity to re-sign fringy MLB types, and expect overperformance is an alarming trend; I'm thinking of Kotsay, Owens, Wise, Mackowiac, Erstad, and others as examples.]

It also doesn't change my mind that this organization should have sent down Beckham weeks ago, so he can un-**** his swing and stop bitching at the umps.

It also doesn't change my mind that MLB hitting coaches do exactly jack and ****, regardless of WHO that coach is.

It also doesn't make me believe that this team is better than it is. I'm not deluded into believing that this incomplete roster can win a world series as currently constructed.

It also doesn't make me believe that KW can trade the polished turds in the minor league system for usable parts, despite the Dunn/Fielder/Lee type threads here.


Sure, I'm pleased at the improvement in fortunes of late. I'm enjoying the wins. But I'm also looking at this with my eyes wide open to the reality that this team probably isn't good enough to win it all. I also don't think that this organization has the ammo to GET good enough to win it all this year.

khan
07-08-2010, 10:29 AM
What was wrong with the trade? Getz and Fields wouldn't be on this team anyway.

Getz can at least catch a cold defensively. Getz is also a virtual offensive equal to the craptacular Mark Teahen. Getz is also cheaper than Teahen.


I'm not convinced of the supposed wisdom of that trade, and moreso, the stupid extension.

Dibbs
07-08-2010, 10:35 AM
I still think there needs to be some changes. Also, I think your reaction to the winning streak would be comparable to the reactions of those during the losing streak. Just because we have been hot doesn't mean nothing needs to be done.

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 10:42 AM
Getz can at least catch a cold defensively. Getz is also a virtual offensive equal to the craptacular Mark Teahen. Getz is also cheaper than Teahen.


I'm not convinced of the supposed wisdom of that trade, and moreso, the stupid extension.

So where would he fit on a roster if he's not a starting 2nd baseman? He has very little value, because he can't play SS/3rd Base/OF like Lillibridge.

He would not have made the roster coming out of spring training.

Completely agree with you on the extension...have no idea what KW was thinking.

Huisj
07-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Getz is also a virtual offensive equal to the craptacular Mark Teahen.




Getz career: .256/.319/.329 OPS+: 70
Teahen career: .268/.331/.417 OPS+: 93

Getz 2010: .234/.303/.270 OPS+: 58
Teahen 2010: .255/.340/.387 OPS+: 93

Getz will steal a few bases and catch some balls nicely, yes, but to say he's the same offensive player is quite a stretch.

Zisk77
07-08-2010, 10:46 AM
Teahen has been disappointing. He got of to the same bad start as everyone not named Konerko or Rios then he got hurt. I still think he will be good. Here's to Crede like return from the dl circa 2005 (remember how awful Joe was with the bat before breaking his finger bunting?).

khan
07-08-2010, 10:47 AM
So where would he fit on a roster if he's not a starting 2nd baseman? He has very little value, because he can't play SS/3rd Base/OF like Lillibridge.
Lillibridge can't play 3rd/SS, due to his weak-ish arm for those positions. At least, not well enough to be used as depth. In an emergency, sure Lillibridge could.

Beckham @ 3rd and Getz @ 2nd was what I was thinking before the trade. PLUS, the $14M or so that wouldn't have been wasted on an obese contract for what amounts to a utility player in Teahen would have stayed here.

Hitmen77
07-08-2010, 10:52 AM
There was a lot of unrest on these boards about a month ago. Many of us wanted changes. There were a ton of campaigns going:

1. Fire Ozzie
2. Fire Kenny
3. Fire Walker
4. Fire Coop
5. Trade TCQ
6. Trade Jenks
7 Trade Alexei
8. Trade Pierre
9 Dump Kotsay and Jones
10. Redo the Teahan trade
11 Fire Everyone

Now in hindsight, was it a case of a lot of players in a slump? Alexei has totally turned his offense around. TCQ and Pierre are hitting much better. Has Walker finally contributed or was it the players all along? Jenks, Putz, Thornton and the starters have been lights out. Coop finally contributing?
Ozzie must be doing something right because this team is playing as good as anyone in baseball---the offense defense and pitching all falling into place. Even the farm is part of the revival. Viciedo and Lillibridge came up and are contributing.
At this point maybe Kenny is still on the hot seat because the Sox need another bat. But this team has gone from rags to riches in a month. Good none of us were in charge.

Some people very recently were calling for the Sox to trade Dan Hudson if that's what it takes to get another bat.

I know he hasn't pitched an inning for us yet this year, but at this point I'm glad the "trade Hudson" people weren't in charge.

khan
07-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Getz career: .256/.319/.329 OPS+: 70
Teahen career: .268/.331/.417 OPS+: 93

Getz 2010: .234/.303/.270 OPS+: 58
Teahen 2010: .255/.340/.387 OPS+: 93

Getz will steal a few bases and catch some balls nicely, yes, but to say he's the same offensive player is quite a stretch.
They're both sub-par offensive players; I'll agree that Getz may be MORE sub-par than Teahen. But then, I suppose that was the point of my previous post.

However, Getz is not NEARLY as sub-par a defensive player as is Teahen; Teahen simply CAN'T field well enough to start in MLB, while Getz can.

Lastly, adjusting expectations FOR THE PRICETAG of each player, I'd still take Getz over Teahen and his obese contract.

hawkjt
07-08-2010, 10:59 AM
Teahen has a whole 137 at bats in Chicago,and some fans are ready to write him off. He has over 2600 at bats in his career and is averaging .268. At .268 right now on this team,he would be our 4th best hitter. He is paid a whopping 3.75 million....gasp. PK and Rios are paid 12 million...so they should be hitting better than him.
He got off to a slow start,like everyone but PK and Alex...but as we have seen with Alexei,Carlos,and Juan...players do improve as the season goes along sometimes. I dislike that some Sox fans get down on a player,based on 137 at bats, and write him off in viscious terms...like with Alex Rios last year. If Teahen comes back to his career numbers and solidifies his defense at third after a long stretch of not playing that position, he will earn his contract.

Dan H
07-08-2010, 11:03 AM
I was one who called for changes and I have to admit I had little faith in what I saw. However, I am never one who uses terms like "back up the truck," or "blow it all up." Even if the the Sox didn't improve, it didn't make sense to make any changes until the trading deadline. And any changes would have had to be made with some real forethought, not getting angry and start firing or trading everyone.

To defend the detractors: 60 games is a long slump. And tie that on to the back of the losing '09 season didn't exactly instill confidence.

In the end, at least there was no emotion out there. I remember the late '90's when so many didn't care if the team won or lost. Meanwhile I would rather be wrong and enjoy the team as it contends.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2010, 11:03 AM
Reminder to everyone, it is still only July 8th.


We have not clinched a playoff birth yet.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 11:05 AM
Teahen has a whole 137 at bats in Chicago,and some fans are ready to write him off. He has over 2600 at bats in his career and is averaging .268. At .268 right now on this team,he would be our 4th best hitter. He is paid a whopping 3.75 million....gasp. PK and Rios are paid 12 million...so they should be hitting better than him.
He got off to a slow start,like everyone but PK and Alex...but as we have seen with Alexei,Carlos,and Juan...players do improve as the season goes along sometimes. I dislike that some Sox fans get down on a player,based on 137 at bats, and write him off in viscious terms...like with Alex Rios last year. If Teahen comes back to his career numbers and solidifies his defense at third after a long stretch of not playing that position, he will earn his contract.

That whopping $3.75 M grows to $4.75 M in 2011 and $5.5 M in 2012. We could have simply non-tendered him at the end of this year and wiped our hands clean of the whole mess, instead the Sox are on the hook for $10 M+ over the next two years.

Additionally, Teahen's OPS is just ever so slightly below his career average, .727 to .748 over his career (.737 over the past 3 seasons in KC) so this is really about as much as you can realistically get out of the guy. It's not surprising either, the Cell's reputation as a hitter's park is exaggerated, it's only a HR hitter's park and Teahen, as you may have noticed, is no masher.

And, on top of all that, he's a terrible third baseman. Terrible.

khan
07-08-2010, 11:07 AM
Teahen has a whole 137 at bats in Chicago,and some fans are ready to write him off. He has over 2600 at bats in his career and is averaging .268. At .268 right now on this team,he would be our 4th best hitter. He is paid a whopping 3.75 million....gasp. PK and Rios are paid 12 million...so they should be hitting better than him.
He got off to a slow start,like everyone but PK and Alex...but as we have seen with Alexei,Carlos,and Juan...players do improve as the season goes along sometimes. I dislike that some Sox fans get down on a player,based on 137 at bats, and write him off in viscious terms...like with Alex Rios last year. If Teahen comes back to his career numbers and solidifies his defense at third after a long stretch of not playing that position, he will earn his contract.
1. Mark Teahen isn't very good at catching or throwing the ball. When you include that into the equation, he is way overpaid. He simply isn't a good ballplayer. Especially when you compare him to the other players in your post, in that all of them are at least adequate defenders for their positions.

2. You're really going out of your way to defend Mark Teahen. Is he a relative or friend of yours? [I just want to know, so I don't offend someone on these boards.]

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 11:10 AM
Getting rich [in part] due to playing ****ty little-boy NL teams doesn't change my mind about the stupidity of the Teahen re-signing.

It also doesn't change my mind about the stupid choice of Kotsay/Jones over Thome. [By extension, the SOX's proclivity to re-sign fringy MLB types, and expect overperformance is an alarming trend; I'm thinking of Kotsay, Owens, Wise, Mackowiac, Erstad, and others as examples.]

It also doesn't change my mind that this organization should have sent down Beckham weeks ago, so he can un-**** his swing and stop bitching at the umps.

It also doesn't change my mind that MLB hitting coaches do exactly jack and ****, regardless of WHO that coach is.

It also doesn't make me believe that this team is better than it is. I'm not deluded into believing that this incomplete roster can win a world series as currently constructed.

It also doesn't make me believe that KW can trade the polished turds in the minor league system for usable parts, despite the Dunn/Fielder/Lee type threads here.


Sure, I'm pleased at the improvement in fortunes of late. I'm enjoying the wins. But I'm also looking at this with my eyes wide open to the reality that this team probably isn't good enough to win it all. I also don't think that this organization has the ammo to GET good enough to win it all this year.


Geez....we split 2/3 vs. Detroit to start the streak, we beat Nats on the road vs. Strasberg, we took 2/3 from Texas on the road, 3 in a row from LAA, swept the 1st place Braves.

Yes the Cubs/Pirates/Nats suck...but the league has a .600 winning percentage against them...we played .780 ball.

We're not perfect, other than the Yankees/Red Sox....it looks like we can play with any team in the AL. Rays lost series to Braves, Marlins, DBack, Padres in June.

bigdommer
07-08-2010, 11:14 AM
I still think the Teahen trade could have been a good move. The resigning was premature, however.

Agree 100%. On baseball alone, the trade by itself was okay as we traded two AAAA players for someone who was at worst a utilityman.

However, KW knew that Teahen would get about $5MM in arbitration, even though the Royals sent over some money. The extension was more mind-boggling, especially when you consider that KW had just acquired a ton of $$$ and question marks with Rios and Peavy.

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 11:16 AM
1. Mark Teahen isn't very good at catching or throwing the ball. When you include that into the equation, he is way overpaid. He simply isn't a good ballplayer. Especially when you compare him to the other players in your post, in that all of them are at least adequate defenders for their positions.

2. You're really going out of your way to defend Mark Teahen. Is he a relative or friend of yours? [I just want to know, so I don't offend someone on these boards.]

Overall a very questionable move by KW...I heard that Buddy Bell was a big advocate of bringing him over...but other than the fact that we really gave up nothing....we somehow assessed him as an upgrade on defense (no evidence to support), he has always struck out alot (120 times/year) so not a help on the "contact" side of things. He's another version of Kotsay...LH hitter, who can play a bunch of positions.

While it won't break the bank...why we would extend him before Opening Day is mind boggling.

hawkjt
07-08-2010, 11:18 AM
Not related to Teahen.
Just a loyal sap to Sox players,I guess.
I noticed back in 06/07 that Teahens range factor at third was top 3 in the league...so I continue to hope he can get back there at third again.
I guess I just do not see why some fans seem to feel compelled to trash a guy who is on the DL. Is it a need to judge Kenny on his trades?
Whatever blows your skirt up...trash away...me? I will enjoy the journey.
Whenever the Sox go 21-5...I am a bit of a pollyanna ,probably,and like to think positively. Just me...go ahead and doom and gloom it...afterall,they lost those 4 games in the last 30 days....how dare they!!

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Not related to Teahen.
Just a loyal sap to Sox players,I guess.
I noticed back in 06/07 that Teahens range factor at third was top 3 in the league...so I continue to hope he can get back there at third again.
I guess I just do not see why some fans seem to feel compelled to trash a guy who is on the DL. Is it a need to judge Kenny on his trades?
Whatever blows your skirt up...trash away...me? I will enjoy the journey.
Whenever the Sox go 21-5...I am a bit of a pollyanna ,probably,and like to think positively. Just me...go ahead and doom and gloom it...afterall,they lost those 4 games in the last 30 days....how dare they!!

I agree with you on the streak...I'm really enjoying this team...and believe it's sustainable as long as our pitching stays healthy (even with Peavy going down).

As far as Teahen goes, way too many errors at 3rd base...other than the occasional start off the bench...I'd prefer Vizquel or Viciedo.

Lillian
07-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Teahen has a whole 137 at bats in Chicago,and some fans are ready to write him off. He has over 2600 at bats in his career and is averaging .268. At .268 right now on this team,he would be our 4th best hitter. He is paid a whopping 3.75 million....gasp. PK and Rios are paid 12 million...so they should be hitting better than him.
He got off to a slow start,like everyone but PK and Alex...but as we have seen with Alexei,Carlos,and Juan...players do improve as the season goes along sometimes. I dislike that some Sox fans get down on a player,based on 137 at bats, and write him off in viscious terms...like with Alex Rios last year. If Teahen comes back to his career numbers and solidifies his defense at third after a long stretch of not playing that position, he will earn his contract.

Yes, and his career numbers vs RH pitching are:
.274 AVG .341 OBP .428 SLG
That might be good enough to let him DH in the middle of the lineup, following Quentin and Konerko. He might have a few more homers playing the summer in the Cell instead of Kansas City.
It wouldn't be an ideal solution, but it may be the best that K. W. can do, now that he won't be able to trade Hudson.

I've stated in another thread that I really like Rios in the 6th spot, providing there are capable hitters both in front of him and behind him.
That makes Rios like a second lead off hitter for the lower part of the order. He can get on, and is a stolen base threat. A.J. has had success serving in the role of a #2 hitter, so he could bat 7th. Then you have Beckham and Ramirez at the bottom, to drive them in.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 11:27 AM
Yes, and his career numbers vs RH pitching are:
.274 AVG .341 OBP .428 SLG
That might be good enough to let him DH in the middle of the lineup, following Quentin and Konerko. He might have a few more homers playing the summer in the Cell instead of Kansas City.
It wouldn't be an ideal solution, but it may be the best that K. W. can do, now that he won't be able to trade Hudson.

I've stated in another thread that I really like Rios in the 6th spot, providing there are capable hitters both in front of him and behind him.
That makes Rios like a second lead off hitter for the lower part of the order. He can get on, and is a stolen base threat. A.J. has had success serving in the role of a #2 hitter, so he could bat 7th. Then you have Beckham and Ramirez at the bottom, to drive them in.

You want to put arguably our best, most dynamic offensive player 6th in the lineup?

Come on.

kufram
07-08-2010, 11:33 AM
I didn't blame people for wanting changes. The team was giving plenty of fuel for that fire. It was patently obvious to me that the team could not ALL stay in the collective slump they were in. The pitching couldn't ALL stay that poor. May was impossibly too early to demand trades. It just doesn't happen that way.

I think more of the management team then some others here do and I have a little faith that they want to win almost as bad as I do and are doing what they can to reach that end. Also, I'm not deluded into thinking that I know better than the pros do and I don't think any of them are stupid... but the internet is a place where armchair blowhards can blow as hard as they want and I find it quite entertaining to read sometimes.

But I do think calling players abusive names and using abusive language, albeit filtered, to personnally deride the players and management is beyond the pale and in any case utterly futile. The players never hung their heads and that showed me something. I think Mr. Teahen is not done here quite yet and that doesn't mean I'm a big Mark Teahen apologist or that I have a taste for Kool-aid

Now, is this team good enough to win it all? NOBODY KNOWS! What does it take to win a World Series? It takes 11 wins. Any team that gets itself into the playoffs is good enough to get hot, get some breaks, and win 11 games against any other set of 3 teams. I've thought from day one that this team had the makings of a playoff team and I didn't give up because Jenks blew a save or two in May, or we didn't get a player I thought we should get, or Ozzie's game management isn't as good as mine is in my head.

Everybody is contributing now in one way or another. There could be one or two big moves but I'm sceptical that that will happen or even should happen. I prefer a team that plays together to a bunch of players with the right numbers. Obviously, a blend of the two is perfect. I'm hopeful that rather than the headline trades some demand that we make good adjustments that suit the group we have. That MAY mean one or two players leaving, but I'm not convinced we can't go a long way playing the way we have been with the people we have.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-08-2010, 11:52 AM
Alexei's slow start will still be a perennial issue. I still have a HUGE problem with that. Look at the mess the slow start got us into in April and May. We could be way out in front if we could have just a few of those games back.

I don't contribute much of this turn-around to the coaching staff. I contribute it to the White Sox playing the ****ty NL and getting some confidence back. Before they were playing WAY BELOW potential, and the coaching staff couldn't fix that no matter what they did. It took an inferior stretch of teams to get some of the pitchers back on track and heat up a few of the bats.

If the Sox crash and burn down the stretch, you still have to making coaching changes. And, quite possibly GM changes.

Lillian
07-08-2010, 12:03 PM
You want to put arguably our best, most dynamic offensive player 6th in the lineup?

Come on.

I understand that you wouldn't normally have a hitter of Rios' quality batting 6th, but think about it. If Quentin is back, he needs to be hitting 3rd, which is where he had his greatest success in 2008. Paulie has to hit clean up. Against RH pitching, you have to have someone left handed batting behind Paulie, just to break up the string of right handed hitters.
It would be nice to have a legitimate slugger there, but that may not be possible. Therefore, Teahen becomes a candidate, by default.

Now, to the issue of Rios. He seems to be coming back down to earth, and if he hits something like his career numbers, he could be very effective batting 6th. I just have this "pet" strategy that ideally calls for the 6th hitter to be a player with a decent OBP, who also has speed and can steal a base. If he can also drive in some runs, then he can serve in a dual role as someone who can drive in the guys in front of him.

When he comes to bat with no one on base, he functions in a similar role as your lead off hitter. If he has the right kind of players batting behind him, in the lower third of the order, it works much like the first 4 batters in the lineup;
Lead off hitter with high OBP and speed, followed by a guy who can hit the ball to the right side of the infield on a hit and run, as A. J. can do. They are then followed by a couple of guys who can drive in runs, in this case, Beckham and Ramirez.

Again, it's just my personal pet strategy. I reason it this way; if the construct of the first half of the order is valid, then why not try to approximate it again. in the second half of the order?

khan
07-08-2010, 12:06 PM
Geez....we split 2/3 vs. Detroit to start the streak, we beat Nats on the road vs. Strasberg, we took 2/3 from Texas on the road, 3 in a row from LAA, swept the 1st place Braves.

Yes the Cubs/Pirates/Nats suck...but the league has a .600 winning percentage against them...we played .780 ball.

We're not perfect, other than the Yankees/Red Sox....it looks like we can play with any team in the AL. Rays lost series to Braves, Marlins, DBack, Padres in June.
1. I'm pleased with the winning of late, but I want MORE. I want our SOX to win another ****ing World Series before I get old and senile.

2. "Playing with any team in the AL" isn't the same as being a World Series-calibre team.

3. Because of the SOX's deficiencies, I can compartmentalize being happy with the winning, while ALSO recognizing that this team still has many holes in it.

khan
07-08-2010, 12:09 PM
Overall a very questionable move by KW...I heard that Buddy Bell was a big advocate of bringing him over...but other than the fact that we really gave up nothing....we somehow assessed him as an upgrade on defense (no evidence to support), he has always struck out alot (120 times/year) so not a help on the "contact" side of things. He's another version of Kotsay...LH hitter, who can play a bunch of positions.

While it won't break the bank...why we would extend him before Opening Day is mind boggling.
I'm also starting to believe that Buddy Bell sucks a horse's ass. He's been getting a free pass from the fandom and the press, and he's done exactly jack and **** in his time here, IMO.

I'd LOVE to have a job in baseball, where your job performance is optional in terms of retaining your job.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 12:23 PM
I'm also starting to believe that Buddy Bell sucks a horse's ass. He's been getting a free pass from the fandom and the press, and he's done exactly jack and **** in his time here, IMO.

I'd LOVE to have a job in baseball, where your job performance is optional in terms of retaining your job.

How long has Buddy Bell been in his position? 2-3 years? You're expecting a guy to completely turn over a farm system in that amount of time?

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 12:29 PM
Alexei's slow start will still be a perennial issue. I still have a HUGE problem with that. Look at the mess the slow start got us into in April and May. We could be way out in front if we could have just a few of those games back.

I don't contribute much of this turn-around to the coaching staff. I contribute it to the White Sox playing the ****ty NL and getting some confidence back. Before they were playing WAY BELOW potential, and the coaching staff couldn't fix that no matter what they did. It took an inferior stretch of teams to get some of the pitchers back on track and heat up a few of the bats.

If the Sox crash and burn down the stretch, you still have to making coaching changes. And, quite possibly GM changes.

So blame the coaching staff when the team plays poorly. But credit the players when they play well?:scratch:

voodoochile
07-08-2010, 12:32 PM
Getz can at least catch a cold defensively. Getz is also a virtual offensive equal to the craptacular Mark Teahen. Getz is also cheaper than Teahen.


I'm not convinced of the supposed wisdom of that trade, and moreso, the stupid extension.

The extension may be in question, but claiming Getz is Teahen's offensive equal is way past silly. Getz's slash line is currently .234/.303/.270/.574. He's got 4 XBH (all doubles) in 111 AB.

TomBradley72
07-08-2010, 12:36 PM
1. I'm pleased with the winning of late, but I want MORE. I want our SOX to win another ****ing World Series before I get old and senile.

2. "Playing with any team in the AL" isn't the same as being a World Series-calibre team.

3. Because of the SOX's deficiencies, I can compartmentalize being happy with the winning, while ALSO recognizing that this team still has many holes in it.

I get it...but looks like only 2 team have fewer "deficiencies" than we do....and we've played right there with the Yankees and Red Sox over the past 30+ games or so.

Lots of games to go...and recent history has proven...the team that gets hot for a few weeks can get the 11 wins to win the World Series. If we get in, with out 4 starters, bullpen and improved defense and team speed...I like our chances.

Even in 2005 we had deficiencies, and our lead was down to 1-2 games in late September.

Most of my life, the White Sox were out of it by the All Star break...I plan on enjoying the ride...and not forgetting what 1969-1970, 1973-76, 1978-80, 1986-89, 1995-99, etc. were like.

voodoochile
07-08-2010, 12:40 PM
How long has Buddy Bell been in his position? 2-3 years? You're expecting a guy to completely turn over a farm system in that amount of time?

You can also argue that the players who have been called up since Buddy took over appear to be doing better than many of the call ups in the past. Look at the change in Lillibridge if nothing else. Something appears to have clicked in that kids head. Then look at Lucy and the few weeks he spent with the club. I think he still leads the team in OPS. It doesn't stop there either. Players have been showing signs of life when they come up since Bell took over. Maybe some better coaching actually is happening. We may never have a system as good as the Twinkies, but it's nice to have guys come up and not look like a deer stuck in the middle of the road while the 18-wheeler bears down on them...

Marqhead
07-08-2010, 12:45 PM
The extension, however, is mind-bottling.

:rolling: Well played.

As it is said, winning cures all. It will obviously quell the "Fire Ozzie" and "blow it up threads" but it still doesn't make me happy with Kotsay, Jones and Teahen on this team, or Ozzie's constant tinkering.

But if they keep winning at an .800 clip there really isn't going to be much complaining.

Zisk77
07-08-2010, 01:28 PM
1. I'm pleased with the winning of late, but I want MORE. I want our SOX to win another ****ing World Series before I get old and senile.

2. "Playing with any team in the AL" isn't the same as being a World Series-calibre team.

3. Because of the SOX's deficiencies, I can compartmentalize being happy with the winning, while ALSO recognizing that this team still has many holes in it.

Too Late! :tongue:

doublem23
07-08-2010, 02:50 PM
You can also argue that the players who have been called up since Buddy took over appear to be doing better than many of the call ups in the past. Look at the change in Lillibridge if nothing else. Something appears to have clicked in that kids head. Then look at Lucy and the few weeks he spent with the club. I think he still leads the team in OPS. It doesn't stop there either. Players have been showing signs of life when they come up since Bell took over. Maybe some better coaching actually is happening. We may never have a system as good as the Twinkies, but it's nice to have guys come up and not look like a deer stuck in the middle of the road while the 18-wheeler bears down on them...

Hudson is going to be the first real bellweather of Bell's job, IMO. Drafted in 2008 in the higher rounds (but not that high... 5th round) in 2008, he's only been in the system under Bell and has apparently blossomed during that time. If Hudson is the real deal, then maybe so is Bell. If Hudson was all smoke and mirrors last year, then I don't know what to think.

twinsuck
07-08-2010, 02:51 PM
I still wanna trade Beckham...

thomas35forever
07-08-2010, 03:37 PM
People were calling for all of those things I think because they were under the belief that this was no slump and we just flat out sucked. Yes, I'm glad everything has turned around.

doublem23
07-08-2010, 03:44 PM
I still wanna trade Beckham...

Why?

pudge
07-08-2010, 06:05 PM
I was never on the fire KW bandwagon, and I was not really on any fire Ozzie bandwagon either, but I don't think swapping the entire coaching staff would have been a bad thing. As a matter of fact, if Ozzie and staff had gotten fired and the team goes on this run (which would have still been possible) then we'd all be lauding what a brilliant new coaching staff we have. Then we'd potentially never see a sacrifice bunt ever again, and I'd be a happy man.

ChicagoG19
07-08-2010, 06:24 PM
I would still fire Walker, dump Kotsay/Jones, and dump Teahen.

What he said .

twinsuck
07-08-2010, 09:46 PM
Why?
because I think he's going to be a bust.

cards press box
07-08-2010, 10:20 PM
I'm also starting to believe that Buddy Bell sucks a horse's ass. He's been getting a free pass from the fandom and the press, and he's done exactly jack and **** in his time here, IMO.

I'd LOVE to have a job in baseball, where your job performance is optional in terms of retaining your job.

What is your basis for criticizing the job performance of Buddy Bell? I am not familiar with many of the moves that Bell has made in the Sox farm system but I know of one that has worked out really well -- it was Bell who convinced Sergio Santos to become a pitcher last year. That was a creative (and hardly obvious) move that benefits the Sox right now and should benefit the Sox greatly for years to come.

Tragg
07-08-2010, 10:32 PM
I still wanna trade Beckham...

Selling low is the quickest way to the poorhouse.

He needs to get his plate discipline back...not easy on this team, but he needs to.

I don't think the Sox would be worse off doing a bunch of things on the list at the outset of this thread.

cards press box
07-08-2010, 10:33 PM
because I think he's going to be a bust.

I can't agree with that statement at all. Young players struggle. It's part of the game. But many young players make the adjustments and develop into fine players. Take, for example, second baseman Howie Kendrick.

In this past series with the Angels, Kendrick was the most dangerous hitter in L.A.'s lineup. After some initial success in the big leagues a few years ago, Kendrick (like Gordon Beckham this year) struggled and, in fact, briefly went back to the minors in 2009 after hitting .239 in the first half of the year. Upon his return from the minors last year, Kendrick hit .358 in the second half. Kendrick is playing very well this year and is hitting a ton.

Beckham has played well defensively this year. It is true that Beckham has struggled at the plate in 2010 but I have no reason to think that he will not follow in Kendrick's footsteps and regain his batting prowess, as he adjusts to major league pitching.

A. Cavatica
07-08-2010, 11:53 PM
Two things sparked this 22-5 run.

1. The first win was right after Kenny said "changes need to be made" and meant it. Why is it that a threat from Kenny could motivate the players when Ozzie can't? Because they've tuned Ozzie out.

2. Interleague play. I should probably give Ozzie credit for doing well; the versatile roster helped. But we have to play the rest of our games against the AL, and we all know this team will come back to Earth soon.

I realize it can't happen until the end of the season, but I still think they need to fire Ozzie and several of the coaches. There's no reason to be sacrificing to get a base-stealer like Pierre to second, no reason to be playing Vizquel or Lillibridge at DH, no reason to think a Kotsay/Jones DH tandem is a good idea. But that's Ozzieball.

FielderJones
07-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Two things sparked this 22-5 run.

1. The first win was right after Kenny said "changes need to be made" and meant it. Why is it that a threat from Kenny could motivate the players when Ozzie can't? Because they've tuned Ozzie out.

2. Interleague play. I should probably give Ozzie credit for doing well; the versatile roster helped. But we have to play the rest of our games against the AL, and we all know this team will come back to Earth soon.


:roflmao:

No, what sparked this run is Greg Walker finally helped the slumping players fix their swings.

Don't believe me? I have as much evidence for my theory as you have for yours.

Oh, and by fall back to earth, you mean they won't play .815 ball the rest of the way out? You're probably right on that one, you should see what the Vegas sports books will offer on that prop.

canOcorn
07-09-2010, 12:11 AM
I realize it can't happen until the end of the season, but I still think they need to fire Ozzie and several of the coaches. There's no reason to be sacrificing to get a base-stealer like Pierre to second, no reason to be playing Vizquel or Lillibridge at DH, no reason to think a Kotsay/Jones DH tandem is a good idea. But that's Ozzieball.

Absolutely! I firmly believe this run is in spite of Ozzie, but I'll take it however it comes...

FielderJones
07-09-2010, 12:16 AM
Absolutely! I firmly believe this run is in spite of Ozzie, but I'll take it however it comes...

At least you classify it as a belief, so you don't have to show any evidence.

A. Cavatica
07-09-2010, 12:26 AM
:roflmao:

No, what sparked this run is Greg Walker finally helped the slumping players fix their swings.

Don't believe me? I have as much evidence for my theory as you have for yours.

The hitting has been improving, but a .727 OPS on the season is nothing for Walker to brag about. That ranks 20th out of 30 teams. Tell him to fix Beckham, Vizquel, Pierre, Pierzynski, and Kotsay's swings, OK?

Coop (who I've never wanted fired) has done a better job getting the pitchers on track. They've allowed an opponents' OPS of .705, which ranks 16th.

Sox in April: .698 OPS; .701 opponents' OPS
Sox in May: .720 OPS; .762 opponents' OPS
Sox in June: .749 OPS; .696 opponents' OPS
Sox in July (so far): .810 OPS; .568 opponents' OPS

But my fervent desire to see Ozzie fired was never based on this season's slow start. This team's underperformed since mid-2006, and Ozzie's bad talent evaluation, bad decision-making, and abrasive personality have been front and center throughout.

canOcorn
07-09-2010, 12:36 AM
At least you classify it as a belief, so you don't have to show any evidence.

How would you like me to quantify how Ozzie sucks or is great as a manager?

doublem23
07-09-2010, 12:52 AM
because I think he's going to be a bust.

Fair enough, but I don't think selling low is the way to go. I mean, how much less valuable could Beckham be? I doubt we'll be able to entertain any real offers that match his own potential. I'd rather just hold on to him and hope he can figure out his swing, because if he does, he can be a pretty above average Major Leaguer. I just don't think trading him now will net anything in equal value.

voodoochile
07-09-2010, 01:43 AM
But my fervent desire to see Ozzie fired was never based on this season's slow start. This team's underperformed since mid-2006, and Ozzie's bad talent evaluation, bad decision-making, and abrasive personality have been front and center throughout.

And again this refrain gets posted...

Are the Sox actually still underperforming this year?

If not, then I suggest that winning 90 games and then making the playoffs and then being in the pennant race again all in a 5 year stretch (preceded by a WS championship) might actually be something to give the manager kudos for...

FielderJones
07-09-2010, 11:14 AM
How would you like me to quantify how Ozzie sucks or is great as a manager?

Ozzie's current regular season record is 558 - 499 for a .528 win percentage. In 6-1/2 seasons he has beaten the Pythagoriean W/L four times, been below it twice (both times -1), and been dead-on once. Overall he is +17 against Pythagorean. He has won the division twice, with one World Series championship. He is 12 - 4 in postseason play.

Now show me that his record is below the MLB average. That will constitute sucking. Here's (http://www.baseball-reference.com/) a good place to start your research.

kufram
07-09-2010, 11:50 AM
The hitting has been improving, but a .727 OPS on the season is nothing for Walker to brag about. That ranks 20th out of 30 teams. Tell him to fix Beckham, Vizquel, Pierre, Pierzynski, and Kotsay's swings, OK?

Coop (who I've never wanted fired) has done a better job getting the pitchers on track. They've allowed an opponents' OPS of .705, which ranks 16th.

Sox in April: .698 OPS; .701 opponents' OPS
Sox in May: .720 OPS; .762 opponents' OPS
Sox in June: .749 OPS; .696 opponents' OPS
Sox in July (so far): .810 OPS; .568 opponents' OPS

But my fervent desire to see Ozzie fired was never based on this season's slow start. This team's underperformed since mid-2006, and Ozzie's bad talent evaluation, bad decision-making, and abrasive personality have been front and center throughout.


"Underperformed" is a relative term in this case and I'm not sure what it's reference point is. According to some poster's pre-determination of what this team was capable of this year one would have to say they have OVERperformed lately.

Surely by the time a player reaches an mlb team his talent has been evaluated by people paid to do that job. A manager's job is to manage the team.

Ozzie is not a by-the-book game manager and he makes decisions by his gut in my opinion and some of the calls can be questioned. Sometimes there is no consistency in his game management and I can find that a little frustrating myself but not enough to call for his head. I think as many games are won by his gut calls as are lost by them and that is not very many over a season.

Although Ozzie has an abrasive side when his feathers are ruffled, don't all mlb managers? A word I would use to describe Ozzie is profane and I'm no wallflower. His language is really quite offensive, but hey, it's a free world. But more than anything I think Ozzie is funny. He makes people laugh. He's very loose and quick witted and I think the players are comfortable with him.... well except for the occasional meltdown!

khan
07-09-2010, 12:50 PM
What is your basis for criticizing the job performance of Buddy Bell? I am not familiar with many of the moves that Bell has made in the Sox farm system but I know of one that has worked out really well -- it was Bell who convinced Sergio Santos to become a pitcher last year. That was a creative (and hardly obvious) move that benefits the Sox right now and should benefit the Sox greatly for years to come.

I suppose that I'm still fuming over his recommendation of Teahen. I also haven't heard great things about how well-instructed and/or well-coached the minor leaguers are in this system. This, despite him being in charge for a few years already.

I'll grant that KW's goal in life to trade away each and every useable part in the system plays a role, as does the craptacular scouting/drafting. But color me as under-impressed with his work. He hasn't made the system into anything to be envied, nor has it appeared that the youngsters are well-instructed.

khan
07-09-2010, 12:56 PM
The extension may be in question, but claiming Getz is Teahen's offensive equal is way past silly. Getz's slash line is currently .234/.303/.270/.574. He's got 4 XBH (all doubles) in 111 AB.

Yeah, I'll agree that Mark Teahen is better offensively, now that I've looked @ the stats. But, Teahen is poorer [relative to his peers @ his position] both defensively and offensively than Getz @ his position.

But, more pressing [to me] is the law of adjusted expectations. Getz is on a league min deal, while Teahen is locked up for a few years at WELL MORE than league min. For THIS reason alone, I'd rather have Getz than Teahen in the roster.

The millions wasted on Teahen could/should be used for more important things than a glorified utility player, IMO.

Domeshot17
07-09-2010, 01:06 PM
I still have little to no faith in Ozzie, hes been bailed out a lot by pitching picking up this terrible offense he runs out.

Craig Grebeck
07-09-2010, 01:11 PM
I can't agree with that statement at all. Young players struggle. It's part of the game. But many young players make the adjustments and develop into fine players. Take, for example, second baseman Howie Kendrick.

In this past series with the Angels, Kendrick was the most dangerous hitter in L.A.'s lineup. After some initial success in the big leagues a few years ago, Kendrick (like Gordon Beckham this year) struggled and, in fact, briefly went back to the minors in 2009 after hitting .239 in the first half of the year. Upon his return from the minors last year, Kendrick hit .358 in the second half. Kendrick is playing very well this year and is hitting a ton.

Beckham has played well defensively this year. It is true that Beckham has struggled at the plate in 2010 but I have no reason to think that he will not follow in Kendrick's footsteps and regain his batting prowess, as he adjusts to major league pitching.
No, he's not. He's not doing that at all.

TomBradley72
07-09-2010, 03:01 PM
I still have little to no faith in Ozzie, hes been bailed out a lot by pitching picking up this terrible offense he runs out.

What offense would YOU run out?

So he doesn't get credit for the pitching doing well, but he does get blame if the offense doesn't do well? :scratch:

TomBradley72
07-09-2010, 03:16 PM
The hitting has been improving, but a .727 OPS on the season is nothing for Walker to brag about. That ranks 20th out of 30 teams. Tell him to fix Beckham, Vizquel, Pierre, Pierzynski, and Kotsay's swings, OK?

Coop (who I've never wanted fired) has done a better job getting the pitchers on track. They've allowed an opponents' OPS of .705, which ranks 16th.

Sox in April: .698 OPS; .701 opponents' OPS
Sox in May: .720 OPS; .762 opponents' OPS
Sox in June: .749 OPS; .696 opponents' OPS
Sox in July (so far): .810 OPS; .568 opponents' OPS

But my fervent desire to see Ozzie fired was never based on this season's slow start. This team's underperformed since mid-2006, and Ozzie's bad talent evaluation, bad decision-making, and abrasive personality have been front and center throughout.

2007 roster sucked.

2008 team showed alot of fight....won 3 "do or die" games in a row...Cleveland, Detroit and Minnesota to get in the play offs.

2009 roster sucked as well...Colon/Contreras were 40% of the rotation, no center fielder, Quentin out for the season, Fields at 3rd base, etc.

TheVulture
07-09-2010, 03:20 PM
What offense would YOU run out?



Pierre LF
Ramirez SS
Rios CF
Konerko 1b
Quentin RF
AJ C
Viciedo DH
Vizquel 3b
Beckham/Lillibridge(as long as he's hot) 2b

I might shuffle Omar between 2, 8, 9 depending on matchups.

mzh
07-09-2010, 03:34 PM
Pierre LF
Ramirez SS
Rios CF
Konerko 1b
Quentin RF
AJ C
Viciedo DH
Vizquel 3b
Beckham/Lillibridge(as long as he's hot) 2b

I might shuffle Omar between 2, 8, 9 depending on matchups.
How exactly is this different from the offense we've thrown out the last week?

Domeshot17
07-09-2010, 04:45 PM
How exactly is this different from the offense we've thrown out the last week?

did you miss the part where Mark Kotsay consistently hits 3-6. On days Kotsay has to be in the lineup (which is far too much according to Ozzie), he should be hitting 9th, not in the middle.

The Sox have the worst offensive production from the DH spot in the AL. Yet Ozzie consistently decides to hit that 3-6.

Domeshot17
07-09-2010, 04:45 PM
What offense would YOU run out?

So he doesn't get credit for the pitching doing well, but he does get blame if the offense doesn't do well? :scratch:

Pretty much, I don't think Ozzie controls how well Peavy or Danks throws. However, he does control Mark Kotsay and his mendoza average and no power hitting 3rd in the order.

TheVulture
07-09-2010, 06:38 PM
How exactly is this different from the offense we've thrown out the last week?
No Jones/No Kotsay

Also no "The Cuban Manos" at 3b.

NLaloosh
07-10-2010, 02:56 PM
Well, I couldn't have been any more wrong about this team. I am stunned after watching them for so many years that I could be fooled like this.

I guess I'll have to remember to keep my mouth shut from now on when I start saying "this team will never...."

Secondly, I'm absolutely thrilled that I was wrong and I can't ever remember my team going on an 11 game winning streak or a 23-5 run. It's awesome.

Even if they don't make the playoffs I'm happy now. Thanks, White Sox.

cards press box
07-11-2010, 12:43 AM
No, he's not. He's not doing that at all.

Don't know the basis for your categorical statement but I can tell you this: I was at the games on Wednesday and Thursday and Howie Kendrick was consistently hitting the ball hard. From what I actually saw, Kendrick and Torii Hunter were far and away the most dangerous hitters in the L.A. lineup.

Do the stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kendrho01.shtml) bear that out with respect to Kendrick? I think they do. Through 87 games, Kendrick is hitting .277 with 7 HR and 52 RBI with a slugging percentage of .402. The batting average is down 20 points from his career mark of .297 but, man, Kendrick is driving in runs. In fact, Kendrick is a second baseman who fields quite well, hits lines drives to all fields, and is on pace to hit around 13 homers and drive in 97 runs.

I stand by my statement: Kendrick is playing very well this year and is hitting a ton.

cards press box
07-11-2010, 01:02 AM
I suppose that I'm still fuming over his recommendation of Teahen.

The millions wasted on Teahen could/should be used for more important things than a glorified utility player, IMO.

I don't think the contract extension for Mark Teahan is all that big a deal. Other posters might disagree but the two-year extension for Teahan adds predictability to any deal involving Teahan. And given his age and left handed stick, I think the Sox could find a taker. I don't know exactly why I think this but I suspect that Houston might be a landing spot for Teahan. I could see Houston G.M. Ed Wade trying to rebuild on a limited budget and opting to take a chance on Teahan's potential, knowing that the cost for Teahan is not exhorbitant by major league standards.

I also haven't heard great things about how well-instructed and/or well-coached the minor leaguers are in this system. This, despite him being in charge for a few years already.

Color me as under-impressed with his work. He hasn't made the system into anything to be envied, nor has it appeared that the youngsters are well-instructed.

Even without giving Bell some credit for converting Santos into a pitcher (which he certainly deserves), I don't see the basis for your contention that Sox minor leaguers are not well instructed. The players who have come up from the minors this year (Viciedo, Lillibridge and Santos) all seem fundamentally sound. Lillibridge has run the bases well and appears to be hitting to all fields. Viciedo has been hitting line drives to right center and left center and has looked o.k. at 3B. Another promising rookie, Dan Hudson, will start against K.C. tomorrow.

Last year, the Sox brought up Gordon Beckham. Yes, he has struggled with the bat this year but his defense at 2B (his third position in two years) has been excellent. And his hitting is going to come around, too.

If the system has been somewhat short of talent, I would point to two reasons. First, Duane Shaffer did not draft high ceiling guys. Second, the Sox have dealt a number of prospects in the past few years. Since 2008, the Sox have been drafting more high ceiling guys. The Sox got a bad break when Jared Mitchell got hurt in spring training but he should be back. And there is no reason to think that Chris Sale and some of the other pitchers drafted high in the 2010 draft won't make it to Chicago eventually.

Craig Grebeck
07-11-2010, 01:25 AM
Don't know the basis for your categorical statement but I can tell you this: I was at the games on Wednesday and Thursday and Howie Kendrick was consistently hitting the ball hard. From what I actually saw, Kendrick and Torii Hunter were far and away the most dangerous hitters in the L.A. lineup.

Do the stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kendrho01.shtml) bear that out with respect to Kendrick? I think they do. Through 87 games, Kendrick is hitting .277 with 7 HR and 52 RBI with a slugging percentage of .402. The batting average is down 20 points from his career mark of .297 but, man, Kendrick is driving in runs. In fact, Kendrick is a second baseman who fields quite well, hits lines drives to all fields, and is on pace to hit around 13 homers and drive in 97 runs.

I stand by my statement: Kendrick is playing very well this year and is hitting a ton.
I respectfully disagree.

pudge
07-11-2010, 01:58 AM
Ozzie's current regular season record is 558 - 499 for a .528 win percentage. In 6-1/2 seasons he has beaten the Pythagoriean W/L four times, been below it twice (both times -1), and been dead-on once. Overall he is +17 against Pythagorean. He has won the division twice, with one World Series championship. He is 12 - 4 in postseason play.

Now show me that his record is below the MLB average. That will constitute sucking. Here's (http://www.baseball-reference.com/) a good place to start your research.

Well done. The truest thing I ever heard is that a manager can lose games, but can't win them. Ozzie goes on these weird funks where he will lose a bunch of games with his odd decisions (and the bane of my existence, sacrifice bunting) but when he stays out of the way and trusts his players, he's a great guy to keep the clubhouse going.

Nellie_Fox
07-11-2010, 02:28 AM
I would still fire Walker...Walker took all of the blame around here when there were lots of guys not hitting. But now he gets no credit when guys have turned it on. That's just wrong.


Just a loyal sap to Sox players,I guess.Me too; it's why I know I'd be a lousy GM.

I'm also starting to believe that Buddy Bell sucks a horse's ass.Really? Is this hyperbole necessary? Does everything have to "suck ass" with you? A horse's ass on top of it?

the bane of my existence, sacrifice buntingThere are some people, and some circumstances, where sac bunts should not be used. However, I'll always take exception to the stat heads who think it should never be used, because they're basing it on raw statistics, not controlled analysis.


Without quotes (to avoid calling anyone out) it's a playoff berth not a playoff birth, and it's mind boggling, not mind bottling.

TomBradley72
07-11-2010, 09:53 AM
Really? Is this hyperbole necessary? Does everything have to "suck ass" with you? A horse's ass on top of it?



Sort of analagous to "Triple Dog Dare".

cards press box
07-11-2010, 11:53 AM
I respectfully disagree.

Spoken like a gentleman.

Marqhead
07-11-2010, 12:14 PM
and it's mind boggling, not mind bottling.


I can at least defend this one, as it's a quote from a movie.

qWkNPrXkvRA

doublem23
07-11-2010, 12:20 PM
Without quotes (to avoid calling anyone out) it's a playoff berth not a playoff birth, and it's mind boggling, not mind bottling.

No, it's bottling, like when things are so crazy it gets your thoughts all trapped, like in a bottle.

Nellie_Fox
07-12-2010, 01:37 AM
I can at least defend this one, as it's a quote from a movie.


No, it's bottling, like when things are so crazy it gets your thoughts all trapped, like in a bottle.I'm just not cool enough to get the pop-culture reference. I remember when I used to be. Kinda.