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Fenway
07-03-2010, 06:58 AM
http://bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/view.bg?articleid=1265443&srvc=sports&position=3

2 weeks ago fans were surprised when Roger Clemens showed up at Fenway as a fan. While NESN did show him sitting in the Monster seats, there was no PA announcement by the team welcoming him back to Fenway.

The man is going to wind up doing jail time as now the IRS is looking at card show records where Roger always demanded cash. If they don't get him he also possibly faces charges of lying to Congress.

Of everybody named in the Mitchell Report he stands alone saying NOT ME.

A lawyer friend of mine knows his lawyer in Houston well and was told that Roger drives his own ship and has been told by numerous legal experts to come clean and just said he tried steroids and didn't like them. If he had done that 2 1/2 years ago he would be free and clear today.

He has become the Pete Rose of this generation.

Madvora
07-03-2010, 08:43 AM
A lawyer friend of mine knows his lawyer in Houston well and was told that Roger drives his own ship and has been told by numerous legal experts to come clean and just said he tried steroids and didn't like them. If he had done that 2 1/2 years ago he would be free and clear today.

So much for the attorney-client confidentiality.

hi im skot
07-03-2010, 10:46 AM
:violin:

white sox bill
07-03-2010, 11:44 AM
Can't say I feel overly sorry for Roger, but can't say I enjoy hearing of another persons bad fortunes either.

Red Barchetta
07-03-2010, 12:38 PM
It's really a shame that these players have earned many millions over their careers and they still don't have enough sense to seek legitimate financial and legal council. I can understand the desire to pay as little taxes as possible, however to demand cash for autographs, etc. seems pretty silly considering all the money he has made to play a game at a level that most of us can only dream about.

Lying on the steroids use is one thing. Skipping out on taxes is another. I mean, how much does he really need to provide a good life for his family and his children for years to come?!

thomas35forever
07-03-2010, 12:43 PM
Roger deserves no sympathy. That's all I have to say.

Over By There
07-03-2010, 12:54 PM
My first reaction to the thread title was, "no way. I don't feel sorry for this guy."

But then I remembered high school literature, and that in Greek tragedies, the protagonist always had a crucial flaw that led to their downfall. I guess in the case of Clemens, it's vanity or greed or something like that. So by the traditional literary definition, I guess it's a tragedy.

But I still don't feel sorry for him. :wink:

LITTLE NELL
07-03-2010, 12:59 PM
Roger deserves no sympathy. That's all I have to say.

Amen to that.

TheVulture
07-03-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm not sure a criminal getting what he deserves is what I would refer to as a tragedy. How about "The Woeful Disgrace of Roger Clemens?"

voodoochile
07-03-2010, 01:11 PM
My first reaction to the thread title was, "no way. I don't feel sorry for this guy."

But then I remembered high school literature, and that in Greek tragedies, the protagonist always had a crucial flaw that led to their downfall. I guess in the case of Clemens, it's vanity or greed or something like that. So by the traditional literary definition, I guess it's a tragedy.

But I still don't feel sorry for him. :wink:

I was just having this exact same thought so was pleased to read your post.

I'd have to say his flaw is hubris more than anything. He honestly believes that because he is who he is, he won't be punished. The chickens have roosted, Roger...

voodoochile
07-03-2010, 01:12 PM
I'm not sure a criminal getting what he deserves is what I would refer to as a tragedy. How about "The Woeful Disgrace of Roger Clemens?"

It's a tragedy in the classic sense of the word as Over By There so eloquently pointed out...

Over By There
07-03-2010, 01:16 PM
I was just having this exact same thought so was pleased to read your post.

I'd have to say his flaw is hubris more than anything. He honestly believes that because he is who he is, he won't be punished. The chickens have roosted, Roger...

Hubris! That's the word I was looking for and couldn't come up with. Thanks. :smile:

SI1020
07-03-2010, 01:21 PM
Both he and Bonds were top of the line performers ticketed for Cooperstown. Bonds couldn't stand the attention and adulation received by McGwire and Sosa, knowing they were not his equal. With Clemens I think it was the desire to postpone as long as possible the natural decline of age. As for Clemens I'm with OBT and Voodoo on this. I don't feel sorry for Roger either, but it is a kind of avoidable tragedy. I certainly don't envy him.

TheVulture
07-03-2010, 02:19 PM
It's a tragedy in the classic sense of the word as Over By There so eloquently pointed out...

True, but usually the tragedy comes about as a result of the protagonist's flaw being exposed, manipulated, taken advantage of, etc. by an antagonist or circumstance. e.g. Othello's jealousy manipulated by Shylock, Hamlet's delusion used by the members of the royal court, etc. According to Aristotle, pity is a key element of tragedy due to the amount of suffering being greater than the moral offense.

Clemens brought it all on himself, has suffered little and whatever he gets, he deserves. Now if he commits suicide over this, then I'll call it a tragedy.

Brian26
07-03-2010, 02:32 PM
My first reaction to the thread title was, "no way. I don't feel sorry for this guy."

But then I remembered high school literature, and that in Greek tragedies, the protagonist always had a crucial flaw that led to their downfall. I guess in the case of Clemens, it's vanity or greed or something like that. So by the traditional literary definition, I guess it's a tragedy.

But I still don't feel sorry for him. :wink:

Excellent post...that's very poignant. I agree, too.

spawn
07-03-2010, 03:44 PM
My first reaction to the thread title was, "no way. I don't feel sorry for this guy."

But then I remembered high school literature, and that in Greek tragedies, the protagonist always had a crucial flaw that led to their downfall. I guess in the case of Clemens, it's vanity or greed or something like that. So by the traditional literary definition, I guess it's a tragedy.

But I still don't feel sorry for him. :wink:

Great post.

StillMissOzzie
07-04-2010, 02:38 PM
True, but usually the tragedy comes about as a result of the protagonist's flaw being exposed, manipulated, taken advantage of, etc. by an antagonist or circumstance. e.g. Othello's jealousy manipulated by Shylock, Hamlet's delusion used by the members of the royal court, etc. According to Aristotle, pity is a key element of tragedy due to the amount of suffering being greater than the moral offense.

Clemens brought it all on himself, has suffered little and whatever he gets, he deserves. Now if he commits suicide over this, then I'll call it a tragedy.

I'm no theater critic (and I don't play one on TV either :D:), but I have NO sympathy for Clemens. He is the "victim" of what appear to be plenty of poor decisions on his part. And what's up with a multi-millionaire cheating on his taxes? That just makes him a weasel in my book.

IMHO, he is a lying, cheating, spineless bum, and I hope justice comes around - soon.

SMO
:gulp:

DumpJerry
07-04-2010, 03:07 PM
A lawyer friend of mine knows his lawyer in Houston well and was told that Roger drives his own ship and has been told by numerous legal experts to come clean and just said he tried steroids and didn't like them. If he had done that 2 1/2 years ago he would be free and clear today.

So much for the attorney-client confidentiality.
There is no breach of attorney/client privilege here. If Roger's lawyer said "here is what I told Roger..." or "Roger and I discussed....." then it is a breach. But for a lawyer to say what other "legal experts" (be they lawyers or non-lawyers) is not covered by attorney/client privilege since it is not a communication Roger's lawyer had with him.

As a lawyer, I would not be in legal trouble if I said "my client was told by others to do X,Y, and Z." The client might not be happy with me, but I would not be in legal hot water. If I said "I told my client to do X,Y, and Z." I would be be in trouble with the disciplinary people.

Now, if I obtain knowledge of what other "legal experts" told my client based on what my client told me, I have to keep my mouth shut. In situations like Clemens', however, I'm sure his lawyer was being told all the time by third party "legal experts" what they told him. From the context of the statements, it sounds like the "legal experts" are non-practicing lawyers who work in public relations trying to re-shape his image. There is no privilege in communications between a PR flack and his client.

Oh, as far as the subject of this thread is concerned, boo ****in' hoo. When you treat your own "teammates" on your baseball team like they are low-lifes, you get what you deserve.

Sam Spade
07-04-2010, 03:55 PM
I have sympathy for Roger, and for all of those people who emphatically say they don't have any sympathy for him. The guy was a great pitcher, with a great big ego that ruins him, and sadly, like so many other people, like myself at times, he can't even see how.

Its all rather sad to me, and every where I look on this site, on the internet in general and in life I see people are expressing their judgments on their fellow man, as if their own ego has never lead them wrong. Maybe its just too easy to look outside yourself for problems and you ignore your own altogether. Or perhaps they think, sure I've done things that I judge myself for, but that aren't this bad. Well congratulations on being only half a **** up.

Its not my intention to make anyone feel bad or to judge anyone who judges others. I still do it too at times; its extremely hard to resist. I'm just saying, this is a tragedy.

white sox bill
07-05-2010, 09:09 AM
I have sympathy for Roger, and for all of those people who emphatically say they don't have any sympathy for him. The guy was a great pitcher, with a great big ego that ruins him, and sadly, like so many other people, like myself at times, he can't even see how.

Its all rather sad to me, and every where I look on this site, on the internet in general and in life I see people are expressing their judgments on their fellow man, as if their own ego has never lead them wrong. Maybe its just too easy to look outside yourself for problems and you ignore your own altogether. Or perhaps they think, sure I've done things that I judge myself for, but that aren't this bad. Well congratulations on being only half a **** up.

Its not my intention to make anyone feel bad or to judge anyone who judges others. I still do it too at times; its extremely hard to resist. I'm just saying, this is a tragedy.
Well put....there some cliche about not judging anyone until you walk a mile in their moccasins.....I have to catch myself on that once in a while too. I know of several of my friends who have said negative things about the Tiger Woods incident too. The truth is that bad news sells. Some people like chasing ambulances and fire trucks too. But as Sam said, we can agree to disagree on certain things. All these allegations hopefully have humbled him

TomBradley72
07-05-2010, 10:42 AM
I have sympathy for Roger, and for all of those people who emphatically say they don't have any sympathy for him. The guy was a great pitcher, with a great big ego that ruins him, and sadly, like so many other people, like myself at times, he can't even see how.

Its all rather sad to me, and every where I look on this site, on the internet in general and in life I see people are expressing their judgments on their fellow man, as if their own ego has never lead them wrong. Maybe its just too easy to look outside yourself for problems and you ignore your own altogether. Or perhaps they think, sure I've done things that I judge myself for, but that aren't this bad. Well congratulations on being only half a **** up.

Its not my intention to make anyone feel bad or to judge anyone who judges others. I still do it too at times; its extremely hard to resist. I'm just saying, this is a tragedy.

Sorry...I just don't agree....he could have stayed clean and still have been a millionaire and lived a more financially secure life than 99% of the people on the planet.

He could have been a steroid user and admitted his mistake and been forgiven by a large majority of the fans.

He chose the route of Pete Rose, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire...and has had years to make that decision. He's had multiple chances to do the right thing, and he's made the decision not to, multiple times.

I'm not judging him, I just have no sympathy or empathy his situation.

khan
07-05-2010, 11:44 AM
I have sympathy for Roger, and for all of those people who emphatically say they don't have any sympathy for him. The guy was a great pitcher, with a great big ego that ruins him, and sadly, like so many other people, like myself at times, he can't even see how.

Its all rather sad to me, and every where I look on this site, on the internet in general and in life I see people are expressing their judgments on their fellow man, as if their own ego has never lead them wrong. Maybe its just too easy to look outside yourself for problems and you ignore your own altogether. Or perhaps they think, sure I've done things that I judge myself for, but that aren't this bad. Well congratulations on being only half a **** up.

Its not my intention to make anyone feel bad or to judge anyone who judges others. I still do it too at times; its extremely hard to resist. I'm just saying, this is a tragedy.

With all the other BILLIONS of people that have it harder in life than Roger Clemens or ANY pro athlete, I simply can't muster any "sympathy" for him. He's a turd, and this ISN'T a "tragedy."

IMO, a tragedy is the Haiti earthquake, or the people down in the Gulf who have lost their livelihoods to the oil leak, or the two kids who drowned the other day. A pompous ******* who could throw a fastball, in part due to cheating and then is in trouble for his own stupidity is NOT "a tragedy."

I can agree that we have all had lapses in judgement, but not to this degree. [Allegedly LYING to Congress? Apparently cheating on your wife with a 15 year old? Claiming that your WIFE did the HGH? Cheating on your taxes?]

Few of us are THAT much of a lowlife.

TornLabrum
07-05-2010, 11:47 AM
Roger Clemens has been an SOB for years. Does anybody remember the 1990 playoffs against the A's when he was thrown out of the game in the early innings for swearing at the plate umpire? Real class.

I've had no love lost for Clemens for twenty years, and that's not about to change. He's a jerk, always was a jerk, and unless he has a personality transplant, always will be a jerk.

voodoochile
07-05-2010, 12:56 PM
Roger Clemens has been an SOB for years. Does anybody remember the 1990 playoffs against the A's when he was thrown out of the game in the early innings for swearing at the plate umpire? Real class.

I've had no love lost for Clemens for twenty years, and that's not about to change. He's a jerk, always was a jerk, and unless he has a personality transplant, always will be a jerk.

Or the time he shattered Piazza's bat and the head of the exploded bat happened to land near Roger so naturally, Roger picked it up and threw it at Piazza as he ran down the line.

If that's not roid rage, then Roger really needed to cut back on the caffeine...

wilburaga
07-05-2010, 01:13 PM
Or the time he shattered Piazza's bat and the head of the exploded bat happened to land near Roger so naturally, Roger picked it up and threw it at Piazza as he ran down the line.

If that's not roid rage, then Roger really needed to cut back on the caffeine...

I still can't beleive Roger wasn't ejected for that. Throwing equipment will often do the trick (see #56), but to throw a dangerous, sharded piece of equipment at an opponent in anger and somehow you're allowed to stay in the game?

kaufsox
07-05-2010, 11:38 PM
I have sympathy for Roger, and for all of those people who emphatically say they don't have any sympathy for him. The guy was a great pitcher, with a great big ego that ruins him, and sadly, like so many other people, like myself at times, he can't even see how.

Its all rather sad to me, and every where I look on this site, on the internet in general and in life I see people are expressing their judgments on their fellow man, as if their own ego has never lead them wrong. Maybe its just too easy to look outside yourself for problems and you ignore your own altogether. Or perhaps they think, sure I've done things that I judge myself for, but that aren't this bad. Well congratulations on being only half a **** up.

Its not my intention to make anyone feel bad or to judge anyone who judges others. I still do it too at times; its extremely hard to resist. I'm just saying, this is a tragedy.

I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Clemens, mostly because of two factors, one he brought all of this on himself; two the people he threw under the bus to protect himself, including his wife. And as far as your other point goes, well I completely disagree. Yes, I've done stupid things, yes I've done things I've regretted, but I can still voice an opinion on a public figure and their less than honorable actions, even more to the point if I see someone doing something I don't think is right at the ball park or on the street, not only do I have a right but a duty to say something. I may be half a **** up, but I'd rather be true to myself lest I complete the job.

Sam Spade
07-06-2010, 12:09 AM
Well put....there some cliche about not judging anyone until you walk a mile in their moccasins.....I have to catch myself on that once in a while too. I know of several of my friends who have said negative things about the Tiger Woods incident too. The truth is that bad news sells. Some people like chasing ambulances and fire trucks too. But as Sam said, we can agree to disagree on certain things. All these allegations hopefully have humbled him
Yeah, I think it makes people feel good about themselves, at least temporarily. They can focus on other people, point their finger, and say "wow, look what he did."
Sorry...I just don't agree....he could have stayed clean and still have been a millionaire and lived a more financially secure life than 99% of the people on the planet.

He could have been a steroid user and admitted his mistake and been forgiven by a large majority of the fans.

He chose the route of Pete Rose, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire...and has had years to make that decision. He's had multiple chances to do the right thing, and he's made the decision not to, multiple times.

I'm not judging him, I just have no sympathy or empathy his situation.
That's a more reasonable opinion, but what are you basing it on? Why did you decide that the mistakes he made and continues to make allow you to draw the line between him and you or anyone else who has made mistakes? Because he is rich its worse? Or because he is famous like those other people?
With all the other BILLIONS of people that have it harder in life than Roger Clemens or ANY pro athlete, I simply can't muster any "sympathy" for him. He's a turd, and this ISN'T a "tragedy."

IMO, a tragedy is the Haiti earthquake, or the people down in the Gulf who have lost their livelihoods to the oil leak, or the two kids who drowned the other day. A pompous ******* who could throw a fastball, in part due to cheating and then is in trouble for his own stupidity is NOT "a tragedy."

I can agree that we have all had lapses in judgement, but not to this degree. [Allegedly LYING to Congress? Apparently cheating on your wife with a 15 year old? Claiming that your WIFE did the HGH? Cheating on your taxes?]

Few of us are THAT much of a lowlife.
I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Clemens, mostly because of two factors, one he brought all of this on himself; two the people he threw under the bus to protect himself, including his wife. And as far as your other point goes, well I completely disagree. Yes, I've done stupid things, yes I've done things I've regretted, but I can still voice an opinion on a public figure and their less than honorable actions, even more to the point if I see someone doing something I don't think is right at the ball park or on the street, not only do I have a right but a duty to say something. I may be half a **** up, but I'd rather be true to myself lest I complete the job.
The real tragedy is that most people would agree with you two. I'm not saying you guys aren't entitled to your opinion, just that your opinion happens to be harmful to you. So long as you continue to judge other people, you will continue to judge yourself, and you will be more unhappy with yourself. The alternative is trying to relate with your fellow man, and I contend that its much less stressful and healthy. I could be wrong, but that's what I've found to be true.

khan
07-06-2010, 11:08 AM
The real tragedy is that most people would agree with you two. I'm not saying you guys aren't entitled to your opinion, just that your opinion happens to be harmful to you. So long as you continue to judge other people, you will continue to judge yourself, and you will be more unhappy with yourself. The alternative is trying to relate with your fellow man, and I contend that its much less stressful and healthy. I could be wrong, but that's what I've found to be true.

Spare us the dimestore psychology.

Honestly, what Roger Clemens did to himself, his [supposedly] loved ones, and to the game is NOT "a tragedy." Some of these [alleged] indiscretions are considered crimes by our society, while others show a lack of loyalty to people not named, "Roger Clemens."

As I'd already posted, we've ALL made mistakes in life, and hopefully, others can forgive us inasmuch as we can forgive ourselves. But few of us have compounded them by [allegedly] lying to Congress, [reportedly] cheating on our spouses with a 15 or 16 year old Country singer, or [reportedly] blaming our illegal activites on our spouses.

Again, I'd call the Haiti earthquake "a tragedy." Or last night's murder victims in Chicago "a tragedy." Or the folks down in The Gulf who lost their livelihoods to a greedy oil company "a tragedy."

But Roger Clemens' actions are NOT "a tragedy."

SI1020
07-06-2010, 11:23 AM
To me a tragedy need not involve a sympathetic figure, which Roger clearly is not. To spoil a special gift that few are given IMO is a kind of tragedy.

TomBradley72
07-06-2010, 11:26 AM
Yeah, I think it makes people feel good about themselves, at least temporarily. They can focus on other people, point their finger, and say "wow, look what he did."

That's a more reasonable opinion, but what are you basing it on? Why did you decide that the mistakes he made and continues to make allow you to draw the line between him and you or anyone else who has made mistakes? Because he is rich its worse? Or because he is famous like those other people?


The real tragedy is that most people would agree with you two. I'm not saying you guys aren't entitled to your opinion, just that your opinion happens to be harmful to you. So long as you continue to judge other people, you will continue to judge yourself, and you will be more unhappy with yourself. The alternative is trying to relate with your fellow man, and I contend that its much less stressful and healthy. I could be wrong, but that's what I've found to be true.

I'm not sure I'm "judging" him....I just don't feel sympathy or empathy for his situation.

white sox bill
07-06-2010, 11:39 AM
It isn't my intention to get in a pi**ing contest with anyone over this. I do understand that many of us, myself included, have a hard time feeling any sympathy for these overpaid athletes, many who make more in a month than a working stiff like me makes in a lifetime. Add to that the massive egos, the groupies, the expense accounts and just the general pampering that they seem to get.

I guess what I'm saying is let the ol boy have his day in court. The Rocket does come across as condescending jackass who has anger management issues. I like confidence in someone but he appears to cross over into cockiness.

I guess I'm just saying is I feel bad that this whole mess could have been avoided. Like Torn said that most of us are pretty forgiving providing the guilty party comes clean and acknowledges accountability. Possibly Rogers ego couldn't allow him to do that. For that I feel for him. That is a true tragedy, Shakespearian principles aside.

Then again I'm certainly fine with anyone who chooses to have a negative opinion on this or anything else......that's part of toleration.

kaufsox
07-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Yeah, I think it makes people feel good about themselves, at least temporarily. They can focus on other people, point their finger, and say "wow, look what he did."

That's a more reasonable opinion, but what are you basing it on? Why did you decide that the mistakes he made and continues to make allow you to draw the line between him and you or anyone else who has made mistakes? Because he is rich its worse? Or because he is famous like those other people?


The real tragedy is that most people would agree with you two. I'm not saying you guys aren't entitled to your opinion, just that your opinion happens to be harmful to you. So long as you continue to judge other people, you will continue to judge yourself, and you will be more unhappy with yourself. The alternative is trying to relate with your fellow man, and I contend that its much less stressful and healthy. I could be wrong, but that's what I've found to be true.

Wow, thanks for your concern, the condescension is a little much though. As a matter of fact your sympathy for my dark heart feels an awful lot like I'm being judged. Also I relate to my fellow human beings quite well, thank you, and at times I find them to be despicable and have no problem saying so. If you beat your spouse, abuse your kids, treat others like crap in general I really don't care what your circumstances are, you're a turd and I don't hate myself for saying so. As a matter of fact, the more I express myself about injustices and horrible behavior of others, the better I feel about myself.

october23sp
07-06-2010, 03:42 PM
http://paxarcana.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/clemens_piazza.jpg
Yeah, I feel bad for that guy.