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Rockabilly
07-02-2010, 01:15 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/414414-chicago-white-sox-targeting-milwaukees-prince-fielder

He will be a lot better than going after Dunn

Danielgosox38
07-02-2010, 01:18 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/414414-chicago-white-sox-targeting-milwaukees-prince-fielder


He will be a lot better than going after Dunn

I want this done ASAP.

Dibbs
07-02-2010, 01:22 AM
This would be amazing, assuming Ozzie could find him at bats. Now this is a left handed bat that is worth acquiring.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2010, 01:27 AM
Just a comment on this:


Fielder's body type isn't ideal for long-term success, but it certainly isn't unprecedented to have a fat ballplayer continue to rake into his 30s.


Um, anyone remember a kid that went by the nickname of "Babe"?


Babe wasn't fat when he was young.


http://retrosport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/babe-ruth.jpg


http://dnewell1.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/babe_ruth.jpg

DirtySox
07-02-2010, 01:29 AM
I like Prince and all, but I'm going to need see some sources that aren't Bleacher Report.

JB98
07-02-2010, 01:32 AM
I like Prince and all, but I'm going to need see some sources that aren't Bleacher Report.

Yeah, I agree. And if KW calls the Brewers to ask about Fielder, I guarantee you Milwaukee is going to want Sergio Santos as part of the deal.

A bunch of guys who are playing in AAA right now isn't going to be enough to cut it.

KRS1
07-02-2010, 01:33 AM
I like Prince and all, but I'm going to need see some sources that aren't Bleacher Report.
Double ditto. The title of this thread should read, "Some guy on Bleacher Report says Sox want Prince."

Coops4Aces
07-02-2010, 01:34 AM
Yeah, I agree. And if KW calls the Brewers to ask about Fielder, I guarantee you Milwaukee is going to want Sergio Santos as part of the deal.

A bunch of guys who are playing in AAA right now isn't going to be enough to cut it.

Santos? He's all theirs. So is Vidiedo, Flowers, Hudson etc.

Rohan
07-02-2010, 01:38 AM
Let the fat jokes commence!

But I'd love me some Prince Fielder on this team.

Rockabilly
07-02-2010, 01:38 AM
We would make the playoffs with Prince on our team

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 01:46 AM
We would make the playoffs with Prince on our team
Who do you think the Brewers would want?

i.e. we don't have it.

LoveYourSuit
07-02-2010, 01:49 AM
Beckham?


I would say yes, go ahead and have him.

Jpgr91
07-02-2010, 01:51 AM
The best comparable trade to Feilder would be when Teixeira was traded from Texas. Atlanta ended up giving up Saltalamaccia, Harrison, Neftali Feliz, and Elvis Andrus. At the time Saltalamaccia and Harrison were the Braves best position and pitching prospects. The Sox do not have any prospects in their system now that would be even close to how Salty and Harrison were rated at the time of the trade. Yes it would be nice for the Sox to get Fielder, but they do not have the ammunition to get it done.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 01:54 AM
Beckham?


I would say yes, go ahead and have him.
Yes, I'm sure they would love Gordon Beckham. That makes perfect sense.

Rockabilly
07-02-2010, 01:57 AM
Who do you think the Brewers would want?

i.e. we don't have it.


Probably Dayan, Hudson and Jordan Danks

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 01:59 AM
Probably Dayan, Hudson and Jordan Danks
Jordan Danks is essentially useless at this point, though, and Dayan is a very big question mark himself.

I doubt it's enough, though.

Jpgr91
07-02-2010, 02:01 AM
Probably Dayan, Hudson and Jordan Danks

It is well documented that the Brewers want pitching. Why would they only want one pitching prospect? Look at recent trades for elite players. All of those trades involved elite prospects. None of those players are elite.

psyclonis
07-02-2010, 02:01 AM
For 1.5 years plus Type A in 2012? No doubt they'll want beckham.
But giving up so much for a pure DH/1B player seems like a lateral move to me (for this year)... considering Konerko would get most starts at 1st.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 02:02 AM
For 1.5 years plus Type A in 2012? No doubt they'll want beckham.
But giving up so much for a pure DH/1B player seems like a lateral move to me... considering Konerko would get most starts at 1st.
Considering a) Beckham's current production, b) our current DH production, and C) possible draft pick compensation, such a deal would be preposterously in our favor.

It's not going to happen. It's not worth speculating about.

Alex Krycek
07-02-2010, 02:09 AM
Kenny would have to lead with Beckham, Hudson, Santos, and Flowers, just to keep Milwaukee's GM from hanging up on him.

theamb
07-02-2010, 03:06 AM
Screw Prince

I want Albert Pujols

GET IT DONE, KENNY!!

doublem23
07-02-2010, 07:01 AM
The Bleacher Report?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

dickallen15
07-02-2010, 07:32 AM
Also keep in mind Boras is with Fielder. It would totally be a rental. I would trade a slew of White Sox prospects for him simply because I think the guys considered the top prospects, Beckham not incluced, have serious flaws. I wouldn't trade Beckham for him.

soxinem1
07-02-2010, 07:55 AM
Yes, I'm sure they would love Gordon Beckham. That makes perfect sense.

Why would they want Beckham? To replace Rickie Weeks at 2B? Weeks has 13 HR and 47 RBI with a solid average. He's not moving for Bacon.

So would they replace Casey McGehee at 3B with Gordon then? They could possibly put him at 1B to replace Prince, but McGehee has been fine at third and getting moved for a guy hitting .200 playing at 2B all year might not sit too well with him, and I wouldn't blame him.

He's not bumping Escobar off SS, and Braun could move to 1B if Prince is traded, so I'm not sure where Bacon fits in MIL right now, unless the Brewers want to include McGehee or Weeks in the trade. That is not happening.

I don't think we have the horses to do this deal.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 08:26 AM
Why would they want Beckham? To replace Rickie Weeks at 2B? Weeks has 13 HR and 47 RBI with a solid average. He's not moving for Bacon.

So would they replace Casey McGehee at 3B with Gordon then? They could possibly put him at 1B to replace Prince, but McGehee has been fine at third and getting moved for a guy hitting .200 playing at 2B all year might not sit too well with him, and I wouldn't blame him.

He's not bumping Escobar off SS, and Braun could move to 1B if Prince is traded, so I'm not sure where Bacon fits in MIL right now, unless the Brewers want to include McGehee or Weeks in the trade. That is not happening.

I don't think we have the horses to do this deal.
I was joking. It makes no sense.

asindc
07-02-2010, 08:27 AM
Who do you think the Brewers would want?

i.e. we don't have it.

We have it, we just might not want to part with it.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 08:29 AM
We have it, we just might not want to part with it.
I'm guessing you mean John Danks. Otherwise, we don't have it. Hell, throw in Beckham -- we still don't have it.

Rocky Soprano
07-02-2010, 08:58 AM
The Bleacher Report?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

It was good enough for Rockabilly. :D:

CHISOXFAN13
07-02-2010, 09:11 AM
Probably Dayan, Hudson and Jordan Danks

They have a great, young outfield.

asindc
07-02-2010, 09:13 AM
I'm guessing you mean John Danks. Otherwise, we don't have it. Hell, throw in Beckham -- we still don't have it.

No, I meant someone like Floyd, Thornton or, dare they dream, John Danks. Like I said, we have it, we just don't want to part with it.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 09:18 AM
No, I meant someone like Floyd, Thornton or, dare they dream, John Danks. Like I said, we have it, we just don't want to part with it.
I think they'd prefer young(er) pitching.

mjmcend
07-02-2010, 09:18 AM
The Bleacher Report?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Yeah, its a blog to which anyone can post. No more reliable than people here claiming they overheard Kenny on the phone at the airport.

doublem23
07-02-2010, 09:27 AM
No, I meant someone like Floyd, Thornton or, dare they dream, John Danks. Like I said, we have it, we just don't want to part with it.

Well, yeah, I'm sure just about every team has pieces that the Brewers would trade for Fielder, when people say "we don't have it," they mean we don't have enough pieces to trade for Fielder, they mean we don't have enough expendable pieces; at this point any trade of Danks, Floyd, etc. would be pointless unless the Sox were hitting the "blow up" button on this team.

HomeFish
07-02-2010, 09:28 AM
Report: 30 teams want Prince Fielder

balke
07-02-2010, 09:30 AM
The way mainstream media has handled Lebron James' destination lately - I trust them as much as anyone.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 09:33 AM
The way mainstream media has handled Lebron James' destination lately - I trust them as much as anyone.
So...is this an argument for Bleacher Report or just a stupid comment?

soxfanreggie
07-02-2010, 09:52 AM
Santos? He's all theirs. So is Vidiedo, Flowers, Hudson etc.

What do you think if they asked for one or two of those guys and Jordan Danks?

asindc
07-02-2010, 09:58 AM
Well, yeah, I'm sure just about every team has pieces that the Brewers would trade for Fielder, when people say "we don't have it," they mean we don't have enough pieces to trade for Fielder, they mean we don't have enough expendable pieces; at this point any trade of Danks, Floyd, etc. would be pointless unless the Sox were hitting the "blow up" button on this team.

Already understood.

Lillian
07-02-2010, 10:02 AM
If the Sox are willing to give up the farm for a LH bat, I'd prefer A. Gonzales to Fielder. Fielder will be free a agent after next season, but Gonzales still has that one year left on his contract, and at a reasonable cost. Either one will require a huge long term deal to retain.

Gonzales is a better all around player with his Gold Glove defense, and better running skills.

If you're going to go after Fielder, I'd prefer to just try to sign him as a free agent at the end of the season. Can the Sox really afford to give up the few decent prospects they have? However, if Fielder could be had without giving up too much, it would be great.

soltrain21
07-02-2010, 10:06 AM
If the Sox are willing to give up the farm for a LH bat, I'd prefer A. Gonzales to Fielder. Fielder will be free a agent after next season, but Gonzales still has that one year left on his contract, and at a reasonable cost. Either one will require a huge long term deal to retain.

Gonzales is a better all around player with his Gold Glove defense, and better running skills.

If you're going to go after Fielder, I'd prefer to just try to sign him as a free agent at the end of the season. Can the Sox really afford to give up the few decent prospects they have? However, if Fielder could be had without giving up too much, it would be great.

San Diego is leading their division by 2 and a half games. Why the hell would they trade Gonzales?

balke
07-02-2010, 10:10 AM
So...is this an argument for Bleacher Report or just a stupid comment?

You're a stupid comment.

And its a commentary that people will take mlbtraderumors.com as gospel - when often times what they report is about as accurate as any sports blog.

See: Buster Olney's Howard for Pujols "anonymous source"

Mod Edit: That's a personal attack. It's not allowed. Please don't do it again.

Lillian
07-02-2010, 10:32 AM
San Diego is leading their division by 2 and a half games. Why the hell would they trade Gonzales?

Oops, my mistake. I forgot that they were in the race.
So, would you give up the farm for half of a season of Prince Fielder?

soltrain21
07-02-2010, 10:34 AM
Oops, my mistake. I forgot that they were in the race.
So, would you give up the farm for half of a season of Prince Fielder?

Not for half a season, no. But I completely would if we signed him to an extension somehow - which is doubtful.

balke
07-02-2010, 10:37 AM
Not for half a season, no. But I completely would if we signed him to an extension somehow - which is doubtful.

I wouldn't say its impossible to sign him. Sox would be looking for a DH still - and he's young.

Might mean letting Bobby and AJ walk and Buehrle go in the future if they did - but I could see them keeping Prince if they got results.

Side Note: Cecil hit more HR against the Sox than any other team he played.

Craig Grebeck
07-02-2010, 10:42 AM
What do you think if they asked for one or two of those guys and Jordan Danks?

Jordan Danks has no value.

LoveYourSuit
07-02-2010, 10:43 AM
I was joking. It makes no sense.

Oh, so your previous post in response to mine was your typical sarcasm bull****?

OK

Way to get your point across :rolleyes:

doublem23
07-02-2010, 10:46 AM
Can I assume we've gotten all that stupid snippy comments out of the way now? No more warnings. Okaygreatthanks.

Bobby Thigpen
07-02-2010, 10:58 AM
Let the fat jokes commence!

But I'd love me some Prince Fielder on this team.
Despite the fact I'll nearly guarantee he has a lower body fat % than the vast majority of the people making them.

SephClone89
07-02-2010, 11:02 AM
Despite the fact I'll nearly he has a lower body fat % than the vast majority of the people making them.

5'8", 115 lbs here.

Can I say he's fat?

Rocky Soprano
07-02-2010, 11:17 AM
5'8", 115 lbs here.

Can I say he's fat?

Go for it:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2507426&postcount=7

slavko
07-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Just a comment on this:




Babe wasn't fat when he was young.







Thinking the same, Babe never got to Prince proportions anyway, someone is thinking of John Goodman in a movie. Prince listed at 270, maybe 45 lbs short of reality.

munchman33
07-02-2010, 11:43 AM
Can I assume we've gotten all that stupid snippy comments out of the way now?

C'mon doub, I just got here! :cool:

Coops4Aces
07-02-2010, 12:00 PM
What do you think if they asked for one or two of those guys and Jordan Danks?

In a heartbeat.

NLaloosh
07-02-2010, 12:59 PM
Just a comment on this:




Babe wasn't fat when he was young.


http://retrosport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/babe-ruth.jpg


http://dnewell1.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/babe_ruth.jpg


I like the author comes up with one example from 80 years ago. He better get his butt in shape if he expects a long term deal.

DaveFeelsRight
07-02-2010, 01:52 PM
it's funny. fielder has hit more triples (8) in less amount time than konerko's whole career (he has 7)

does that mean fielder is faster than konerko? let the debate begin!

Lillian
07-02-2010, 02:18 PM
This is an interesting quote from the mlbtraderumors site this afternoon:

"There has been no noticeable progress between the Brewers and Prince Fielder (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fieldpr01.shtml) on an extension, but at least one executive doubts that Prince would fetch much of a return in a trade."

If that's true, let's be the team from whom the Brewer's do their "fetchin"!

voodoochile
07-02-2010, 02:22 PM
Yeah, I agree. And if KW calls the Brewers to ask about Fielder, I guarantee you Milwaukee is going to want Sergio Santos as part of the deal.

A bunch of guys who are playing in AAA right now isn't going to be enough to cut it.

Oh no... what will we do without Sergio Santos...:tongue:

Later, Sergio, hope you have a great career in the NL...

Crede24Thome25
07-02-2010, 02:34 PM
Santos? He's all theirs. So is Vidiedo, Flowers, Hudson etc.
I'm with you on that, they can have who ever they want for prince.

SephClone89
07-02-2010, 02:34 PM
Go for it:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2507426&postcount=7

Touche.

For what it's worth, I wasn't planning on calling him fat (I find that personal insults like that are low and juvenile), I was just pointing out that it's stupid to assume that everyone on this site is a big dude with a really high body fat percentage.

Pablo_Honey
07-02-2010, 02:39 PM
Eek, I don't want Prince on this team purely because he would be costly in terms of both pieces needed to get him and money needed to keep him (if they want to keep him). Also, given our history with Jenks, I'm sure Kenny and crew are gonna put their Fat Police hats on and pressure him into losing weight. He's a pipe dream anyway. We could sell our entire farm and it still wouldn't be enough to net him. At the very least, the package will start with John Danks + Hudson. Danks is too valuable to us right now so no way should he be traded.

WisSoxFan
07-02-2010, 02:45 PM
This is an interesting quote from the mlbtraderumors site this afternoon:

"There has been no noticeable progress between the Brewers and Prince Fielder (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fieldpr01.shtml) on an extension, but at least one executive doubts that Prince would fetch much of a return in a trade."

If that's true, let's be the team from whom the Brewer's do their "fetchin"!

What is the speculation as to why they don't think he'll fetch much in return in a trade. Is it because Boras is his agent so teams that don't have deep pockets don't think they'll be able to sign him?

Wow, that is one bad sentence!

Chrisaway
07-02-2010, 02:46 PM
Fat? Skinny? It don't matter this guy can crush the ball. Go get him Kenny. This has been one of my pipe dreams for the last few years.

Lillian
07-02-2010, 02:58 PM
What is the speculation as to why they don't think he'll fetch much in return in a trade. Is it because Boras is his agent so teams that don't have deep pockets don't think they'll be able to sign him?


They didn't provide a source, or any explanation with the quote.
However, it has been noted elsewhere that teams no longer seem willing to part with a lot of good prospects to rent a player for half a season.

WisSoxFan
07-02-2010, 03:09 PM
They didn't provide a source, or any explanation with the quote.
However, it has been noted elsewhere that teams no longer seem willing to part with a lot of good prospects to rent a player for half a season.

Maybe I've read some of this wrong, but isn't Fielder a season and a half rental? Or is that Dunn? If Fielder is only a half season then I get it completely.

Pablo_Honey
07-02-2010, 03:12 PM
Maybe I've read some of this wrong, but isn't Fielder a season and a half rental? Or is that Dunn? If Fielder is only a half season then I get it completely.
Both Dunn and Fielder signed 2-year contracts that last until the end of the 2010 season so they would both be a half-season rental unless the Sox extend them.

Lillian
07-02-2010, 03:14 PM
Maybe I've read some of this wrong, but isn't Fielder a season and a half rental? Or is that Dunn? If Fielder is only a half season then I get it completely.

His contract expires the end of season, and there are no options, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts:

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/milwaukee-brewers.html

The same source will verify that Dunn's contract also expires the end of this season.

cleanwsox
07-02-2010, 03:14 PM
Both Dunn and Fielder signed 2-year contracts that last until the end of the 2010 season so they would both be a half-season rental unless the Sox extend them.

Fielder has one more Arbitration year left.

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/article/2010-04-13/prince-fielder-has-eyes-on-becoming-200-million-man

WisSoxFan
07-02-2010, 03:16 PM
Both Dunn and Fielder signed 2-year contracts that last until the end of the 2010 season so they would both be a half-season rental unless the Sox extend them.

Cool. Let's go get him for cheap then.

Pablo_Honey
07-02-2010, 03:16 PM
Fielder has one more Arbitration year left.
Oops, my bad. I only saw 2-year contract part and forgot to check his service time :redface: Still, given his history of contract demands, he might be shopped after 2010 before they go arb.

Lillian
07-02-2010, 03:24 PM
My mistake. I too missed the service time factor.
So then, it will likely take more than the quoted executive on mlbtraderumors.com suggested.

Foulke You
07-02-2010, 06:00 PM
His contract expires the end of season, and there are no options, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts:

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/milwaukee-brewers.html

The same source will verify that Dunn's contract also expires the end of this season.
Prince is a rent a player for 2 to 3 months so I don't know why people think we will need to part with John Danks, Sergio Santos, or Gavin Floyd to get him. If Prince were signed for 3 more years, then yes, we would need to send a ton of players to Milwaukee for him but he is merely a rental. Rental players don't fetch what they once did on the open market because teams are coveting their prospects a lot more than they used to. If the Brewers want to see a return for Prince and save about $4 million in money before July 31st, they may need to accept a regular offer of two or three decent prospects. Just my .02

Bobby Thigpen
07-02-2010, 06:18 PM
Touche.

For what it's worth, I wasn't planning on calling him fat (I find that personal insults like that are low and juvenile), I was just pointing out that it's stupid to assume that everyone on this site is a big dude with a really high body fat percentage.
Not what I was saying.

Just saying he may be "fat" but I guarantee if you compared body fat %s to the majority of people that will call him fat, he's probably more muscle than them. You don't have to be huge to be a big pile of fat. And just because you may be big, doesn't mean you're automatically fat.

balke
07-02-2010, 07:29 PM
I think the Sox might be in luck. There's a 29 year old Lefty lead pipe lock for the hall of fame (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/jeremy-reed-declares-free-agency.html) who just became a free agent.

Nellie_Fox
07-03-2010, 01:47 AM
Not what I was saying.

Just saying he may be "fat" but I guarantee if you compared body fat %s to the majority of people that will call him fat, he's probably more muscle than them. You don't have to be huge to be a big pile of fat. And just because you may be big, doesn't mean you're automatically fat.Come on. He jiggles when he runs. He's fat. He's always been fat. I remember a Sports Illustrated story about the Tigers, and there was a picture of Prince when he was just a little kid, playing in the Tigers' clubhouse. He was fat then, and he was about 9 or 10.

Rohan
07-03-2010, 01:51 AM
Come on. He jiggles when he runs. He's fat. He's always been fat. I remember a Sports Illustrated story about the Tigers, and there was a picture of Prince when he was just a little kid, playing in the Tigers' clubhouse. He was fat then, and he was about 9 or 10.

He may be fat. His heart probably isn't in the best condition. But he is one of the strongest if not the single strongest man in baseball. And he sees the ball! I'll take it.

Taliesinrk
07-03-2010, 11:20 AM
Come on. He jiggles when he runs. He's fat. He's always been fat. I remember a Sports Illustrated story about the Tigers, and there was a picture of Prince when he was just a little kid, playing in the Tigers' clubhouse. He was fat then, and he was about 9 or 10.

Thank you. I'd still take him (although I wish he'd K less), but the conversation is quickly approaching hypersensitive levels.

munchman33
07-03-2010, 11:23 AM
Prince is a rent a player for 2 to 3 months so I don't know why people think we will need to part with John Danks, Sergio Santos, or Gavin Floyd to get him. If Prince were signed for 3 more years, then yes, we would need to send a ton of players to Milwaukee for him but he is merely a rental. Rental players don't fetch what they once did on the open market because teams are coveting their prospects a lot more than they used to. If the Brewers want to see a return for Prince and save about $4 million in money before July 31st, they may need to accept a regular offer of two or three decent prospects. Just my .02

No, even if Prince is a rent a player, it's for 1 year and 3 months. We still own him next year, we just have to go to arbitration. He can't turn it down until after 2011.

Domeshot17
07-03-2010, 11:32 AM
I didn't even click the link when I saw the source. You might be more accurate qouting someone's facebook status.

You could change this thread title to: Master of the obvious says White Sox (and 29 other teams) want Prince Fielder.

Jurr
07-03-2010, 11:44 AM
My one worry about getting a guy like Fielder is the fact that we end up losing either Peavy, Buehrle, or Konerko. We are talking about way too much salary.

We would then have to rely on younger talent to balance the books, and we would be giving away a truckload of it to acquire Fielder.

getonbckthr
07-03-2010, 12:11 PM
My one worry about getting a guy like Fielder is the fact that we end up losing either Peavy, Buehrle, or Konerko. We are talking about way too much salary.

We would then have to rely on younger talent to balance the books, and we would be giving away a truckload of it to acquire Fielder.
Konerko and Jenks are gone when this year is over. there is the money for Fielder.

FielderJones
07-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Konerko and Jenks are gone when this year is over.

I sure hope not.

getonbckthr
07-03-2010, 12:21 PM
I sure hope not.
You think Jenks is worth 10 million?

Lillian
07-03-2010, 12:26 PM
You think Jenks is worth 10 million?

They will surely resign either Putz or Jenks. How much do you think each will cost? Whom would you rather have?
If the contract is reasonable, I'd prefer Putz. He's 4 years older than Bobby, but seems healthier, following his elbow surgery.

Putz will be a free agent, but Bobby will only be arbitration eligible. I'd like to see the Sox sign Putz to a 2 year deal, and go to arbitration with Bobby. Even though it might take around $9 million, it would only be for one year.

Then, I'd love to see them sign a really good free agent LH hitter.

Coops4Aces
07-03-2010, 12:42 PM
I sure hope not.

I can't bear seeing Paulie leave.

FielderJones
07-03-2010, 12:52 PM
You think Jenks is worth 10 million?

You really think it's going to take 10 million per year to sign Jenks?

Craig Grebeck
07-03-2010, 12:56 PM
You really think it's going to take 10 million per year to sign Jenks?
Relievers are, generally speaking, overvalued in their arbitration cases due to the consideration of frivolous counting stats like saves and holds.

FielderJones
07-03-2010, 01:04 PM
Relievers are, generally speaking, overvalued in their arbitration cases due to the consideration of frivolous counting stats like saves and holds.

A save represents a win for the reliever's team. What makes it frivolous, and what non-frivolous stat do you think relievers (closers especially) should be judged on?

Craig Grebeck
07-03-2010, 01:16 PM
A save represents a win for the reliever's team. What makes it frivolous, and what non-frivolous stat do you think relievers (closers especially) should be judged on?
The qualifications for a save are completely arbitrary. K/9, BB/9, H/9, etc. are far better for evaluating pitchers who perform in such small samples.

Edit: we could talk about newer stats like WXRL, but I don't really want this thread to go down that road. I do feel Jenks will be overpaid, due in large part to the way he will be evaluated stats-wise.

getonbckthr
07-03-2010, 01:21 PM
They will surely resign either Putz or Jenks. How much do you think each will cost? Whom would you rather have?
If the contract is reasonable, I'd prefer Putz. He's 4 years older than Bobby, but seems healthier, following his elbow surgery.

Putz will be a free agent, but Bobby will only be arbitration eligible. I'd like to see the Sox sign Putz to a 2 year deal, and go to arbitration with Bobby. Even though it might take around $9 million, it would only be for one year.

Then, I'd love to see them sign a really good free agent LH hitter.
If getting Fielder means we can't have either one then so be it.

BRDSR
07-03-2010, 01:21 PM
A save represents a win for the reliever's team. What makes it frivolous, and what non-frivolous stat do you think relievers (closers especially) should be judged on?

A save represents a win for the reliever's team, which the reliever's team was already winning, in which the reliever (likely) recorded three outs while (likely) giving up zero, one, or two runs. Racking up saves requires being on a good team, which is often winning at the end of the game, but not on a team with such a good offense that it is often winning by more than 3. It is widely considered one of the most over-rated stats in baseball. ERA, particularly for closers who generally come in at the beginning of innings with nobody on base, is a much better indicator. Bobby's ERA of over 4.00 is pretty dismal, but I would be remiss if I didn't note that his ERA of 1.00 over his last 10 appearances is obviously excellent. However, coupled with the fact that his "stuff" has dropped off somewhat in the last 2 seasons, a long-term expensive contract would be a huge mistake. Unless he's willing to offer a great hometown discount for the team that gave him a chance after he nearly ruined his career with off-the-field carousing, he shouldn't be resigned.

As an aside, I can't believe that names like Danks (John) and Floyd are being thrown around in this thread. Any deal that involves one of the Sox' current starting pitchers (including Garcia, in my opinion) would be at least two steps back for one step forward in terms of this season, and probably worse when you consider the long-term consequences.

Pablo_Honey
07-03-2010, 01:21 PM
A save represents a win for the reliever's team. What makes it frivolous, and what non-frivolous stat do you think relievers (closers especially) should be judged on?
A closer can only turn as many save opportunities as his team provides. K-Rod converted 62 saves in 2008 but does that necessarily mean he was a better reliever than Papelbon who only converted 41 saves? A better example would be Joe Borowski and his 45 saves with the 2007 Indians. He led the league in saves but his other numbers suggest he was nowhere near the top reliever in the league.

thomas35forever
07-03-2010, 01:42 PM
Aren't we trying to move away from the sluggers offense?

Then again, I guess we can't stay in contention if Kotsay is trotted out there every night.

Craig Grebeck
07-03-2010, 01:43 PM
Aren't we trying to move away from the sluggers offense?

Then again, I guess we can't stay in contention if Kotsay is trotted out there every night.
Ah, yes, no more good hitters around these parts. That's the spirit.

DirtySox
07-03-2010, 01:45 PM
Aren't we trying to move away from the sluggers offense?

Then again, I guess we can't stay in contention if Kotsay is trotted out there every night.

Yep. Nuts to slugging. We need more grindy slappy singles hitters. That's the ticket!

A. Cavatica
07-03-2010, 01:54 PM
I can't bear seeing Paulie leave.

I can't bear seeing him stay, unless it's for a 30% pay cut.

asindc
07-03-2010, 02:05 PM
Well, since some have stated their preferences for what type of hitter the Sox should generally go after, I prefer more hitters like Rios.

Coops4Aces
07-03-2010, 02:22 PM
I can't bear seeing him stay, unless it's for a 30% pay cut.

I'm not talking monetarily. Can you imagine where we'd be without him?

Craig Grebeck
07-03-2010, 03:24 PM
Well, since some have stated their preferences for what type of hitter the Sox should generally go after, I prefer more hitters like Rios.
I think everyone wants .900 OPS hitters.

asindc
07-03-2010, 03:26 PM
I think everyone wants .900 OPS hitters.

Exactly.

SOXSINCE'70
07-03-2010, 03:56 PM
I can't bear seeing him stay, unless it's for a 30% pay cut.

Can you imagine where we'd be without him?

:walnuts
"Where would we be without Mark Kotsay?" : )

Rockabilly
07-03-2010, 04:08 PM
I heard on WSCR today that the Giants turn down a offer for Fielder. The Brewers wanted Sanchez and a prospect

Madscout
07-03-2010, 04:34 PM
I heard on WSCR today that the Giants turn down a offer for Fielder. The Brewers wanted Sanchez and a prospect

I assume that is John, because if it is Freddy, teams would be beating down thier door trying to get Prince.

PhillipsBubba
07-03-2010, 05:47 PM
This would be amazing, assuming Ozzie could find him at bats. Now this is a left handed bat that is worth acquiring.

How would Ozzie explain all this to Kotsay???

cards press box
07-03-2010, 06:50 PM
Ah, yes, no more good hitters around these parts. That's the spirit.

How would Ozzie explain all this to Kotsay???

I agree that the Sox could use a bat and I think they will acquire that bat before the deadline. If I had to guess, I expect that the Sox will deal for Lance Berkman. Given Berkman's age and first half, Houston wouldn't demand as much for a half-season of him as Washington would for a half-season of Dunn or Milwaukee would for one and a half seasons of Fielder.

Having said all that, Mark Kotsay does have genuine value for this club as a fourth outfielder/first baseman and as a lefty pinch hitter off the bench. A lot of posters here think he adds nothing to the ballclub and, in my view, that's is just plain wrong.

As a pinch hitter, Kotsay's lifetime mark is around .330. Lots of guys can't pinch hit at all but Kotsay, with his short hitting stroke, seems suited to it and has had real success in the role.

In sum, the Sox may be overexposing Kotsay by DH-ing him all the time. But Kotsay does have real value. It's up to the Sox to use him properly. Acquiring someone like Berkman would be a good step in that direction.

Craig Grebeck
07-03-2010, 07:39 PM
I agree that the Sox could use a bat and I think they will acquire that bat before the deadline. If I had to guess, I expect that the Sox will deal for Lance Berkman. Given Berkman's age and first half, Houston wouldn't demand as much for a half-season of him as Washington would for a half-season of Dunn or Milwaukee would for one and a half seasons of Fielder.

Having said all that, Mark Kotsay does have genuine value for this club as a fourth outfielder/first baseman and as a lefty pinch hitter off the bench. A lot of posters here think he adds nothing to the ballclub and, in my view, that's is just plain wrong.

As a pinch hitter, Kotsay's lifetime mark is around .330. Lots of guys can't pinch hit at all but Kotsay, with his short hitting stroke, seems suited to it and has had real success in the role.

In sum, the Sox may be overexposing Kotsay by DH-ing him all the time. But Kotsay does have real value. It's up to the Sox to use him properly. Acquiring someone like Berkman would be a good step in that direction.
Duh.

Acquire Berkman and you'll be very, very disappointed.

cards press box
07-03-2010, 08:22 PM
Duh.

Thank you for your pointless sarcasm, Little Hurt. It adds so much to the quality of the debate.

Have to give you credit, though. You are an equal opportunity agitator --you attack other other posters whether they agree with you or disagree with you.

In this case, I agree with you that the Sox are overexposing Kotsay. Nonetheless, you bring out the proverbial "pointed stick" and start jabbing away.

Acquire Berkman and you'll be very, very disappointed.

It depends on his health. If he has recovered from his leg injuries from earlier this year, he could help an AL club as a DH. If he hasn't, he won't.

I assume that the Sox (or any other team) would scout Berkman and get medical reports before completing a deal. What's more, I don't think that the Sox would have to give up much to get him.

Of course, why consult with doctors? The Sox should just call you for all medical and baseball questions, right? After all, you have all the answers and the rest of us should not bother to offer our meager opinions. Isn't that right, Little Hurt?

soxinem1
07-03-2010, 10:17 PM
Duh.

Acquire Berkman and you'll be very, very disappointed.

Why??

Face it, if KW makes a trade for a DH-type, it will be for the likes of Adam LaRoche or Lance Berkman.

Jime Thome hit a lot worse his last year in PHI before he came here, and like BErkman was hurt.

And either of those options are way, way better than the DH wannabes that have been trotted out since Opening Day.

Foulke You
07-03-2010, 10:59 PM
No, even if Prince is a rent a player, it's for 1 year and 3 months. We still own him next year, we just have to go to arbitration. He can't turn it down until after 2011.
The website I saw mentioned his contract running out after 2010 but didn't say anything about arbitration. Evidently, they left a key fact out. Another year of Prince under contract control definitely makes him a more expensive "purchase".

doublem23
07-03-2010, 11:06 PM
The website I saw mentioned his contract running out after 2010 but didn't say anything about arbitration. Evidently, they left a key fact out. Another year of Prince under contract control definitely makes him a more expensive "purchase".

Was it Cots? I know, that's the one thing I hate about that site, they hide the arb info on players, but he has a spreadsheet for every team that goes over the salary obligations for every team and that will show you whether or not a player is arb-eligible beyond his current deal.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tBbouLF8jmXAKM3-UDTbAog&output=html

Foulke You
07-03-2010, 11:18 PM
Was it Cots? I know, that's the one thing I hate about that site, they hide the arb info on players, but he has a spreadsheet for every team that goes over the salary obligations for every team and that will show you whether or not a player is arb-eligible beyond his current deal.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tBbouLF8jmXAKM3-UDTbAog&output=html
Yep, it was Cots. I didn't even know they had a spreadsheet too. Thanks. I'll check on that in the future. They should just put in parenthisis if a player is arb elgible or not on the main page. Otherwise, there is a lot of good info on that site.

pmck003
07-04-2010, 04:49 PM
There was a mention of the Sox/Fielder in the Milwaukee newspaper:

http://www.jonline.com/sports/97746734.html (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/97746734.html)

Sam Spade
07-04-2010, 05:13 PM
Those who are saying he is a giant fat guy who will be in his 30s, and only ruth compares (but actually doesn't) apparently don't remember Cecil Fielder?

Rockabilly
07-05-2010, 03:41 PM
Brewers fan trade idea.

Brewers would trade Fielder, Weeks and Axford to the Sox for Floyd, Beckham, Lillibridge, Jordan Danks and Tyler Flowers.

He said it would help the Brewers with a lot of young talent for the future. While it would help the Sox get to the playoffs this year and beyond.

He also said the Sox could bring up Hudson to take Floyd spot in the rotation.

Would any of you do this trade?

Red Barchetta
07-05-2010, 03:51 PM
I can't believe how much Beckham is brought up in these trade discussions. Has Walker messed his swing and "natural talent" up that much?

I would hate to see us give up on, in my opinion, the best looking young player since Frank Thomas, just because he's had one bad 1/2 season after playing 3 positions in 2 years.

I like the Prince Fielder DH option, however I'm not sure we couldn't pick up another bat that is somewhere in between Kotsay/Jones and Fielder for a lot less.

CHISOXFAN13
07-05-2010, 04:19 PM
Brewers fan trade idea.

Brewers would trade Fielder, Weeks and Axford to the Sox for Floyd, Beckham, Lillibridge, Jordan Danks and Tyler Flowers.

He said it would help the Brewers with a lot of young talent for the future. While it would help the Sox get to the playoffs this year and beyond.

He also said the Sox could bring up Hudson to take Floyd spot in the rotation.

Would any of you do this trade?

So the Brewers fan actually included Lillibridge? That's hilarious. Almost as funny as the whole trade proposal.

Chrisaway
07-05-2010, 04:24 PM
Brewers fan trade idea.

Brewers would trade Fielder, Weeks and Axford to the Sox for Floyd, Beckham, Lillibridge, Jordan Danks and Tyler Flowers.

He said it would help the Brewers with a lot of young talent for the future. While it would help the Sox get to the playoffs this year and beyond.

He also said the Sox could bring up Hudson to take Floyd spot in the rotation.

Would any of you do this trade?

Floyd AND Beckham to rent Prince? I think there's something other than kool aid in the Brewers kool aid.

TomParrish79
07-05-2010, 05:01 PM
I can't believe how much Beckham is brought up in these trade discussions. Has Walker messed his swing and "natural talent" up that much?


Hopefully we can chalk it up to a sophomore slump, but my opinion Young Player going through a slump+ Greg Walker = No help getting out of the slump.

Noneck
07-05-2010, 05:23 PM
I wouldnt want the Sox to give this guy more than a 3year deal.( I am sure he wants more than that)

Yes I am prejudiced regarding fat young baseball players.

A. Cavatica
07-05-2010, 10:11 PM
Lillibridge is untouchable.

VMSNS
07-05-2010, 10:45 PM
The Brewers need pitching, which means they're going to want Hudson and probably one of Torres/Santos/Floyd/John Danks. Sorry, but I don't want to give up precious pitching for a 1.5 year rent a player who has a major weight issue and some bad personality traits (anyone remember Fielder trying break into the Dodger locker room to fight Manny?)

Lillian
07-05-2010, 10:54 PM
Fielder would cost the Sox too many good prospects, and be too expensive to keep past next season.
Moreover, he is a better hitter than the Sox really need.

They simply need a good left handed bat for the middle of the order. They need a guy who can add a left handed presence and break up the string of right handed hitters.
However, they don't need that guy to be their best hitter. A guy with an on base percentage of .370 or better, who is capable of hitting 20 to 25 homers, and driving in 80 to 90 runs would be fine.

Pitching is what will carry this team, if they are to make a run at the post season. The offense would be good enough with a more modest acquisition.
A player of the caliber of Dunn or Fielder is really not necessary, if the pitching holds up.

soltrain21
07-05-2010, 11:17 PM
Fielder would cost the Sox too many good prospects, and be too expensive to keep past next season.
Moreover, he is a better hitter than the Sox really need.

They simply need a good left handed bat for the middle of the order. They need a guy who can add a left handed presence and break up the string of right handed hitters.
However, they don't need that guy to be their best hitter. A guy with an on base percentage of .370 or better, who is capable of hitting 20 to 25 homers, and driving in 80 to 90 runs would be fine.

Pitching is what will carry this team, if they are to make a run at the post season. The offense would be good enough with a more modest acquisition.
A player of the caliber of Dunn or Fielder is really not necessary, if the pitching holds up.

Uh. No.

Rockabilly
07-05-2010, 11:47 PM
I guess Ryan Braun is also on the trade market. He would be another great fit for the Sox

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/05/SPJM1E8PBB.DTL

Danielgosox38
07-05-2010, 11:49 PM
I guess Ryan Braun is also on the trade market. He would be another great fit for the Sox

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/05/SPJM1E8PBB.DTL


We'd have to give up every player on the team for Braun.

Craig Grebeck
07-05-2010, 11:52 PM
I guess Ryan Braun is also on the trade market. He would be another great fit for the Sox

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/05/SPJM1E8PBB.DTL
That's quite the leap based on the article.

RockJock07
07-06-2010, 12:33 AM
I guess Ryan Braun is also on the trade market. He would be another great fit for the Sox

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/05/SPJM1E8PBB.DTL

Braun is a fantastic player but Doug Melvin would never trade Braun for anyone unless the player he gets in return is Strasburg, Heyward, or King Felix. Braun is loved in MKE, even more then Fielder.

IMO, the Sox are better served going after Dunn but Fielder would work too, it's only a matter of time before he's gone in Milwaukee because they HAVE to spend the limited money they have on pitching.

Lillian
07-06-2010, 06:32 AM
Uh. No.

Soultrain,

There is a big difference between a "better hitter than we need", and a better hitter than we'd like. Of course, it would be great to add a guy who can hit 40 or 50 homers with an OBP of .400.

I just don't think that this team needs a guy like that in order to win. Moreover, I don't think that we have the pieces and the money to get, and keep, someone like that.

We do however need a respectable LH bat vs. RHP to add presence to the lineup:

LF Pierre
SS Ramirez
RF Quentin
1B Konerko
DH (Any Decent LH Power Hitter with an OBP north of .360)
CF Rios
C A. J.
3B Viciedo
2B Beckham

Now that Quentin is hot, and hopefully back, and Rios is back to his career norm of a 20 to 25 homer hitter, instead of a true slugger, I love the idea of having Rios bat 6th. He can be like a second leadoff hitter for the bottom of the order. A. J. is a capable #2 type hitter, to bat behind Rios. Then you have Viciedo as an RBI threat, serving as a #3 type hitter, for the bottom of the order. Beckham can also drive in a run, once he gets back on track, and also serves as a second lead off hitter at the bottom of the order. Of course, eventually he should hit higher in the lineup.

That's a very good, and well balanced lineup, once you plug in a respectable LH Bat at DH.

They could platoon Teahen with Viciedo, when he comes off the DL.
Vizquel is a great late inning defensive replacement for both of them.

Again, I'd love to have Fielder or Dunn, but if the other guys are performing up to expectations, the Sox don't need to spend the money, and give up the prospects that it would take to get one of those guys.

Then next year, let's sign a big free agent LH bat to take Paulie's place.
They may have the money to do that, if they don't resign Konerko.
That way they just have to spend the money, instead of also having to "give up the farm".

russ99
07-06-2010, 09:52 AM
Soultrain,

There is a big difference between a "better hitter than we need", and a better hitter than we'd like. Of course, it would be great to add a guy who can hit 40 or 50 homers with an OBP of .400.

I just don't think that this team needs a guy like that in order to win. Moreover, I don't think that we have the pieces and the money to get, and keep, someone like that.

We do however need a respectable LH bat vs. RHP to add presence to the lineup:

LF Pierre
SS Ramirez
RF Quentin
1B Konerko
DH (Any Decent LH Power Hitter with an OBP north of .360)
CF Rios
C A. J.
3B Viciedo
2B Beckham

Now that Quentin is hot, and hopefully back, and Rios is back to his career norm of a 20 to 25 homer hitter, instead of a true slugger, I love the idea of having Rios bat 6th. He can be like a second leadoff hitter for the bottom of the order. A. J. is a capable #2 type hitter, to bat behind Rios. Then you have Viciedo as an RBI threat, serving as a #3 type hitter, for the bottom of the order. Beckham can also drive in a run, once he gets back on track, and also serves as a second lead off hitter at the bottom of the order. Of course, eventually he should hit higher in the lineup.

That's a very good, and well balanced lineup, once you plug in a respectable LH Bat at DH.

They could platoon Teahen with Viciedo, when he comes off the DL.
Vizquel is a great late inning defensive replacement for both of them.

Again, I'd love to have Fielder or Dunn, but if the other guys are performing up to expectations, the Sox don't need to spend the money, and give up the prospects that it would take to get one of those guys.

Then next year, let's sign a big free agent LH bat to take Paulie's place.
They may have the money to do that, if they don't resign Konerko.
That way they just have to spend the money, instead of also having to "give up the farm".

I'd love to see the Sox get Dunn (or Fielder) but that would likely be a rental. Unless the Nats/Brewers are desperate, I can't see us giving up Hudson, Flowers, et al. for a guy who won't be with the team next year.

That said, other LH guys are available that could give us a better bat at DH, move Kotsay to the bench where he's got value, and not cost the farm.

I doubt Kenny stands pat here, and the Sox have $4-6M at least to play with.

Lillian
07-06-2010, 10:00 AM
I'd love to see the Sox get Dunn (or Fielder) but that would likely be a rental. Unless the Nats/Brewers are desperate, I can't see us giving up Hudson, Flowers, et al. for a guy who won't be with the team next year.

That said, other LH guys are available that could give us a better bat at DH, move Kotsay to the bench where he's got value, and not cost the farm.

I doubt Kenny stands pat here, and the Sox have $4-6M at least to play with.

As others have pointed out, Fielder still has one more year of arbitration eligibility. However, I agree with you.

GAsoxfan
07-06-2010, 10:44 AM
I'd love to see the Sox get Dunn (or Fielder) but that would likely be a rental. Unless the Nats/Brewers are desperate, I can't see us giving up Hudson, Flowers, et al. for a guy who won't be with the team next year.

That said, other LH guys are available that could give us a better bat at DH, move Kotsay to the bench where he's got value, and not cost the farm.

I doubt Kenny stands pat here, and the Sox have $4-6M at least to play with.

I think when you weigh the cost vs. production, LaRoche would probably be the best bet for the Sox.

cards press box
07-06-2010, 12:39 PM
I think when you weigh the cost vs. production, LaRoche would probably be the best bet for the Sox.

It's a buyer's market for lefty hitting first basemen/outfielders and that helps the Sox if they choose to bring in such a player. I agree that Adam LaRoche would not cost the Sox a lot in terms of salary or prospects. Lance Berkman would probably not cost much in terms of prospects but he does command a high (by MLB standards) salary for the rest of this year.

kittle42
07-06-2010, 02:06 PM
I guess Ryan Braun is also on the trade market. He would be another great fit for the Sox

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/05/SPJM1E8PBB.DTL

That's quite the leap based on the article.

Oh come now, Grebeck, let's not let reality get in the way of more unfounded trade speculation!

Randar68
07-06-2010, 02:13 PM
Fielder would cost the Sox too many good prospects, and be too expensive to keep past next season.
Moreover, he is a better hitter than the Sox really need.

How do you figure that? Konerko is gone after this season if you land a guy like Fielder.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-06-2010, 02:19 PM
How do you figure that? Konerko is gone after this season if you land a guy like Fielder.

The way Konerko is playing, he may be gone regardless.

PatK
07-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Why trade for Dunn, considering he's very similar to Thome, who the Sox did not want?

DirtySox
07-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Why trade for Dunn, considering he's very similar to Thome, who the Sox did not want?

Because it was a huge ****ing mistake to not want Thome. His or Dunn's bat would be a huge boon to the Sox lineup.

KMcMahon817
07-06-2010, 03:51 PM
Why trade for Dunn, considering he's very similar to Thome, who the Sox did not want?

Dunn and Thome are far from comparable at this stage in their respective careers.

Craig Grebeck
07-06-2010, 03:55 PM
Dunn and Thome are far from comparable at this stage in their respective careers.
Rate statistics in 2010:

Dunn: .275/.361/.504 141 OPS+
Thome: .266/.391/.594 162 OPS+

Is one older than the other? More fragile? Of course. But for the next 81 games, they may be very similar.

Lillian
07-06-2010, 04:02 PM
How do you figure that? Konerko is gone after this season if you land a guy like Fielder.

Yes, I understand. I agree, that if you signed Fielder to a long term contract, then you wouldn't expect to bring Konerko back.

I just think that it's better to sign a contract with a free agent, and eliminate the need to give up a bunch of good prospects. As long as you're going to spend the money, at least save the prospects. Seems unwise to do both.

I realize that Fielder won't be a free agent until the end of next season, but there will be other free agents.

Craig Grebeck
07-06-2010, 04:06 PM
Yes, I understand. I agree, that if you signed Fielder to a long term contract, then you wouldn't expect to bring Konerko back.

I just think that it's better to sign a contract with a free agent, and eliminate the need to give up a bunch of good prospects. As long as you're going to spend the money, at least save the prospects. Seems unwise to do both.

I realize that Fielder won't be a free agent until the end of next season, but there will be other free agents.
It's all irrelevant, given that the White Sox don't have a bunch of good prospects.

kittle42
07-06-2010, 04:32 PM
It's all irrelevant, given that the White Sox don't have a bunch of good prospects.

Nor do they enjoy signing big free agents.

KMcMahon817
07-06-2010, 04:55 PM
Rate statistics in 2010:

Dunn: .275/.361/.504 141 OPS+
Thome: .266/.391/.594 162 OPS+

Is one older than the other? More fragile? Of course. But for the next 81 games, they may be very similar.

341 vs 156 plate appearances. Hmmm...I wonder if 200 more appearances, including days that would be terrible match-ups for Thome, would significantly lower those numbers. I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say yes. Come on, man. If you honestly think Thome is anywhere near Dunn at this stage in his career, you should lay off the bong.

Craig Grebeck
07-06-2010, 04:58 PM
341 vs 156 plate appearances. Hmmm...I wonder if 200 more appearances, including days that would be terrible match-ups for Thome, would significantly lower those numbers. I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say yes. Come on, man. If you honestly think Thome is anywhere near Dunn at this stage in his career, you should lay off the bong.
Methinks your hyperbole is a little misguided.

soxinem1
07-06-2010, 05:12 PM
341 vs 156 plate appearances. Hmmm...I wonder if 200 more appearances, including days that would be terrible match-ups for Thome, would significantly lower those numbers. I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say yes. Come on, man. If you honestly think Thome is anywhere near Dunn at this stage in his career, you should lay off the bong.

For once I have to agree with Grebeck.

One, you are not taking into consideration that Thome is a bench player for the first time in his career and his 2010 slash line is not far off from his career numbers.

For what Dunn gets paid vs Thome they are similar and JT is the better value by far: streaky LH power hitters who are extremely limited defensively with high OBP and K's.

For the $10-11 million Dunn is getting, I'd rather have Thome as a part-time DH. If he was here he would have maybe 60-100 more AB's and his numbers would probably not be all that different.

All I know is that Thome plays for a team that fields one of the leagues best lineups, and he is still putting up the numbers, even in a more limited role.

What more could you ask for?

And how does Dunn fit in here more than DH? He blows at 1B and in LF. We now have a defense that ranks among the top in all of MLB, so why do we need him to weaken the team?

And finally, Thome faces AL pitching, Dunn NL pitching.

Let's see how his numbers would be facing better stuff day in/out.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-06-2010, 05:59 PM
These Bleacher Reports are just a bunch of ordinary Joe's with their own blogs. They make up crap and pass it off as if it has factual content.

KMcMahon817
07-06-2010, 06:20 PM
For once I have to agree with Grebeck.

One, you are not taking into consideration that Thome is a bench player for the first time in his career and his 2010 slash line is not far off from his career numbers.

For what Dunn gets paid vs Thome they are similar and JT is the better value by far: streaky LH power hitters who are extremely limited defensively with high OBP and K's.

For the $10-11 million Dunn is getting, I'd rather have Thome as a part-time DH. If he was here he would have maybe 60-100 more AB's and his numbers would probably not be all that different.

All I know is that Thome plays for a team that fields one of the leagues best lineups, and he is still putting up the numbers, even in a more limited role.

What more could you ask for?

And how does Dunn fit in here more than DH? He blows at 1B and in LF. We now have a defense that ranks among the top in all of MLB, so why do we need him to weaken the team?

And finally, Thome faces AL pitching, Dunn NL pitching.

Let's see how his numbers would be facing better stuff day in/out.


Sure, but money has nothing to do with the talent of each player at this point in their career. I love Jim Thome, don't get me wrong. But if Thome plays everyday, you could expect his slash lines to decrease at his age. He never plays when it is a bad match up because the Twins can plug in Kubel, Young or Cuddyer. Unless Cuddyer is playing third, which he has been lately, and I hope he continues to do, Thome can't play when those three do.

Lillian
07-06-2010, 07:41 PM
That free agent list for next year sure looks void of left handed impact bats. Is there any team who has a high priced LH hitter whom they might want to unload just to dump salary, if they should fall out of the race early, next season?

Oh, for another Alex Rios type "waiver wire heist".

Lillian
07-07-2010, 07:41 AM
Last night's injury to Peavy, makes a pretty dramatic statement regarding the inadvisability of including Hudson in any trade for Fielder, or any other LH bat.
The Sox have been pretty lucky regarding the health of their pitching staff. It's pretty common to have injuries to pitchers, and having a guy at AAA, who is stretched out and ready to step in for an injured pitcher is invaluable.

I think the hope of acquiring a big impact bat has now been pretty well dashed. I'd still like to see Kenny acquire a decent LH hitter for the middle of the lineup, but it won't be Dunn or Fielder. Perhaps they can get someone like Edmonds, or a free agent signing like Delgado (if he's ready).

KMcMahon817
07-07-2010, 01:41 PM
Last night's injury to Peavy, makes a pretty dramatic statement regarding the inadvisability of including Hudson in any trade for Fielder, or any other LH bat.
The Sox have been pretty lucky regarding the health of their pitching staff. It's pretty common to have injuries to pitchers, and having a guy at AAA, who is stretched out and ready to step in for an injured pitcher is invaluable.

I think the hope of acquiring a big impact bat has now been pretty well dashed. I'd still like to see Kenny acquire a decent LH hitter for the middle of the lineup, but it won't be Dunn or Fielder. Perhaps they can get someone like Edmonds, or a free agent signing like Delgado (if he's ready).

I vote Adam Laroche. Wouldn't cost much, and he is definitely an upgrade over a Kotsay/Teahen DH platoon.

SOXBOY
07-07-2010, 02:00 PM
The only thing the Sox will go after is Left hand bullpen help.

Sargeant79
07-07-2010, 02:07 PM
I vote Adam Laroche. Wouldn't cost much, and he is definitely an upgrade over a Kotsay/Teahen DH platoon.

Yep. Laroche is probably going to be our best option, especially given what he would likely cost.

Sockinchisox
07-09-2010, 01:41 PM
The Brewers have put Fielder, Hart, and Weeks on the trading block.

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/07/09/brewers-put-fielder-hart-weeks-on-table/

Craig Grebeck
07-09-2010, 01:43 PM
Rickie Weeks please and thank you.

Over By There
07-09-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't think I'd be interested in Fielder given that he's going to look for a Boras-crazy deal next year, and it might be buying high on Hart. But Weeks would be intriguing.

Jurr
07-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Yep. Laroche is probably going to be our best option, especially given what he would likely cost.

I watched Laroche in Pittsburgh, and that's NOT where you want to go. That guy is money for two weeks and then it's crickets for a month. I have never seen a more streaky hitter this side of Juan Uribe.

A. Cavatica
07-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Rickie Weeks please and thank you.

Baseball Reference lists his #1 comparable as Tadahito Iguchi. He shouldn't cost much, right?

sullythered
07-10-2010, 11:29 AM
Rickie Weeks please and thank you.

Really? I mean, I like Weeks, but he doesn't seem to fit the profile of players you are usually all over. OPS, and such.

Lillian
07-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Ricky Weeks is another right handed hitter.
Case closed.
Next?

Tragg
07-10-2010, 11:54 AM
Baseball Reference lists his #1 comparable as Tadahito Iguchi. He shouldn't cost much, right?

Didn't we get the s on of the Philles GM for Iguchi?
Maybe the Brewers will take K Williams JR.

Rohan
07-10-2010, 12:10 PM
Didn't we get the s on of the Philles GM for Iguchi?
Maybe the Brewers will take K Williams JR.

I don't think K Williams Jr. is going anywhere.

JermaineDye05
07-10-2010, 12:25 PM
I don't think K Williams Jr. is going anywhere.

Do you mean from the White Sox or within the organization?

Pablo_Honey
07-10-2010, 12:39 PM
Do you mean from the White Sox or within the organization?
I think he meant the former but it's likely the latter will hold true as well given his history of absolute suckage.

Craig Grebeck
07-10-2010, 11:54 PM
Really? I mean, I like Weeks, but he doesn't seem to fit the profile of players you are usually all over. OPS, and such.
Stat ROBOT does not COMPUTE.

Rockabilly
07-21-2010, 02:32 PM
http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/19095804344


I hope that the Sox get Fielder

FielderJones
07-21-2010, 02:37 PM
http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/19095804344


I hope that the Sox get Fielder

Who's the new Sox fifth starter?

Rockabilly
07-21-2010, 02:39 PM
Who's the new Sox fifth starter?

Carlos Torres

its probably going to take a 3 team trade..

FielderJones
07-21-2010, 02:50 PM
Carlos Torres

its probably going to take a 3 team trade..

Right now I have more confidence in Hudson than Torres. Statistically this year they're close, but Hudson has climbed the minor league ladder faster, and showed me a lot on Monday night.

It's also sounding like the Brewers want a better pitcher than Hudson. The Sox aren't going anywhere without their current big four. Hudson gives me some confidence that the fifth spot in the rotation won't turn into a disaster like it was a few years ago. Fielder isn't going to make up for a huge hole in the rotation.

Plus, Fielder is a Boras client. This deal just isn't going to happen.

soxfan43
07-21-2010, 02:51 PM
Not sure how to cut and paste the full twitter post by Buster Olney, but here's the link. He says no way this deal happens unless the Sox ship out Beckham.

http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19097111671

FielderJones
07-21-2010, 02:56 PM
Not sure how to cut and paste the full twitter post by Buster Olney, but here's the link. He says no way this deal happens unless the Sox ship out Beckham.

http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19097111671

We don't need Fielder that badly. I'd rather stick with the current team than give up that much.

Hitmen77
07-21-2010, 03:02 PM
Fielder is great, but a 2 month rental who is certain not to stay with the Sox for Hudson or Beckham? Wow! I hope Kenny isn't stupid enough to make this trade.

Right now I have more confidence in Hudson than Torres. Statistically this year they're close, but Hudson has climbed the minor league ladder faster, and showed me a lot on Monday night.

It's also sounding like the Brewers want a better pitcher than Hudson. The Sox aren't going anywhere without their current big four. Hudson gives me some confidence that the fifth spot in the rotation won't turn into a disaster like it was a few years ago. Fielder isn't going to make up for a huge hole in the rotation.

Plus, Fielder is a Boras client. This deal just isn't going to happen.

Agreed. Hudson has more upside than the older Torres does. With Peavy out, not only is Hudson important for our success this year, but he might be a key, inexpensive piece of our starting rotation in the years to come.

Fielder is great, but creating a hole in the 5th spot or taking Beckham out of our lineup creates new problems for the Sox.

DirtySox
07-21-2010, 03:03 PM
Fielder is great, but a 2 month rental who is certain not to stay with the Sox for Hudson or Beckham? Wow! I hope Kenny isn't stupid enough to make this trade.



Agreed. Hudson has more upside than the older Torres does. With Peavy out, not only is Hudson important for our success this year, but he might be a key, inexpensive piece of our starting rotation in the years to come.

Fielder is great, but creating a hole in the 5th spot or taking Beckham out of our lineup creates new problems for the Sox.

Fielder is under team control for another year.

Rockabilly
07-21-2010, 03:03 PM
Fielder is great, but a 2 month rental who is certain not to stay with the Sox for Hudson or Beckham? Wow! I hope Kenny isn't stupid enough to make this trade.



Agreed. Hudson has more upside than the older Torres does. With Peavy out, not only is Hudson important for our success this year, but he might be a key, inexpensive piece of our starting rotation in the years to come.

Fielder is great, but creating a hole in the 5th spot or taking Beckham out of our lineup creates new problems for the Sox.


He has a year and half left on his contract

Hitmen77
07-21-2010, 03:05 PM
Fielder is under team control for another year.

He has a year and half left on his contract

Ah, I stand corrected. For some reason, I thought he was a free agent this year.

guillensdisciple
07-21-2010, 03:10 PM
I have a feeling we will see Chris Sale on that rubber a lot sooner than expected if we get Prince.

Sockinchisox
07-21-2010, 03:11 PM
I have a feeling we will see Chris Sale on that rubber a lot sooner than expected if we get Prince.

No way, not with the innings he threw this year already and not to mention he's being used exclusively as a reliever.

guillensdisciple
07-21-2010, 03:14 PM
No way, not with the innings he threw this year already and not to mention he's being used exclusively as a reliever.

Talent wise, he's the only viable fifth option we have. Unless we get another starter in return with this trade there is no way Kenny pulls the trigger.

I see Viciedo and Hudson being dealt, or this trade not happening.

Sockinchisox
07-21-2010, 03:22 PM
Tom Haudricourt of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel says the Brewers had 2 scouts watching Hudson's start in Seattle.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/98947044.html

Rockabilly
07-21-2010, 03:25 PM
If the Sox can extend Fielder contract. I wouldn't mind giving up Hudson,Viciedo and mid level prospect for him.

Prince would hit so many Hr's at the Cell.

TheOldRoman
07-21-2010, 03:32 PM
If the Sox can extend Fielder contract. I wouldn't mind giving up Hudson,Viciedo and mid level prospect for him.

Prince would hit so many Hr's at the Cell.But they can't extend his contract. Borass is his agent. He will go the same road as with Teixiera - he will only sign an extension if it is 8 years, $200 million. If he can't get that deal (and he won't), he will just wait a year and test free agency. Fielder absolutely won't sign an extension unless the team drastically overpays.

PorkChopExpress
07-21-2010, 03:37 PM
Who's the new Sox fifth starter?

Isn't Pedro Martinez still looking for a job? I'm conflicted as to whether or not that should be in teal.

Tragg
07-21-2010, 03:37 PM
Whopee. Maybe we can at the Brewers up like theBraves set the Rangers up

doublem23
07-21-2010, 03:52 PM
Ah, I stand corrected. For some reason, I thought he was a free agent this year.

His current contract expires at the end of this season, but it didn't buy out all his arb year, he's still under team control through 2011.

Crede24Thome25
07-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Give me Laroche and I'm satisfied. Although I'd love to have dunn or fielder, we won't be getting them unless we give up someone important(Beckham/Hudson). So Laroche it is I hope.

Rockabilly
07-21-2010, 03:59 PM
this is probably the reason why we are after Prince

http://www.masnsports.com/the_goessling_game/2010/07/dunn-gossip-from-baltimore.html

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-21-2010, 04:04 PM
But they can't extend his contract. Borass is his agent. He will go the same road as with Teixiera - he will only sign an extension if it is 8 years, $200 million. If he can't get that deal (and he won't), he will just wait a year and test free agency. Fielder absolutely won't sign an extension unless the team drastically overpays.

While I agree with the Boras thing, remember that KW and him supposedly worked out some things in the beginning of the year. You never know.

Domeshot17
07-21-2010, 04:10 PM
While I agree with the Boras thing, remember that KW and him supposedly worked out some things in the beginning of the year. You never know.

Boras, despite our feelings, is a good agent. If I was a ball player I would not want anyone else representing me for sure. To keep Prince would PROBABLY require meeting what the Yanks paid Texiera, but the Ryan Howard contract doesn't exactly help.

DirtySox
07-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Whopee. Maybe we can at the Brewers up like theBraves set the Rangers up

Wut

Foulke You
07-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Carlos Torres

its probably going to take a 3 team trade..
They could also expand a Brewers Prince Fielder deal to include a starter like Chris Capuano. As you suggested, they also could bring in a 3rd team to land a starter as well. We could possibly use Torres short term as well but something tells me if we ship out Hudson, KW would go looking to add a veteran for the #5 spot.

Tragg
07-21-2010, 04:15 PM
The best organizations that have more resources and which have far more prospects than we do do rents like this only reluctantly and rarely. Their cost is far lower and they don't do them...neither should we.
Cliff Lee was without question the number 1 asset on the market; and a team loaded with prospects got him for a a value no more than we will give up (and probably less).

We'll have the same problem next year....no 4th starter, no 5th starter, no catcher, 3 losses in the BP and we'll use "Ozzie favs" (who can't hit) to fill out 3B and an outfield spot.

I'd like to see us get a player for the proceeds that Williams always gets when dumping players....D prospect.

TheOldRoman
07-21-2010, 04:19 PM
While I agree with the Boras thing, remember that KW and him supposedly worked out some things in the beginning of the year. You never know.It has nothing to do with a poor relationship between KW and Boras. When Teixiera was coming into his arbitration years, he gave the Rangers two options 1) a contract buying out his arb years, or 2) a 10 year, $250 contract. There was no in between. Obviously, the Rangers bought out his arbitration years and Tex hit the market when that deal was up.

Fielder wants to test free agency since there is a good chance some team will be desperate and do something stupid. The only way you keep him out of free agency is by insanely overpaying for him.

SoxGirl4Life
07-21-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm just going to chime in. I haven't read the whole thread, but if anyone cares:

Just for the record, I do NOT want Prince Fielder.


Thank you

soltrain21
07-21-2010, 04:54 PM
I'm just going to chime in. I haven't read the whole thread, but if anyone cares:

Just for the record, I do NOT want Prince Fielder.


Thank you

Too awesome for you?

psyclonis
07-21-2010, 04:59 PM
Arg why are reporters still on this?
Kenny is too smart to waste resources on a DH/1B when all this team really needs is another bullpen arm. (maybe SP)
With Jones in RF and TCQ as DH, I cant see how acquiring Dunn/Fielder would vastly improve this team. (when you factor in what it'd cost to acquire them)

But if Kenny was looking for another bat I could see him asking about Manny for DH.(If healthy enough) He'd be pretty cheap. (aside from the ~$10M hes owed)
A Kotsay+Teahen/Manny swap wouldn't bother me :tongue:
He comes off the DL around Aug 10th...

soltrain21
07-21-2010, 05:00 PM
Arg why are reporters still on this?
Kenny is too smart to waste resources on a DH/1B when all this team really needs is another bullpen arm. (maybe SP)
With Jones in RF and TCQ as DH, I cant see how acquiring Dunn/Fielder would vastly improve this team. (when you factor in what it'd cost to acquire them)

But if Kenny was looking for another bat I could see him asking about Manny for DH.(If healthy enough) He'd be pretty cheap. (aside from the ~$10M hes owed)
A Kotsay+Teahen/Manny swap wouldn't bother me :tongue:
He comes off the DL around Aug 10th...

Double wut?

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 05:53 PM
Kenny is too smart to waste resources on a DH/1B when all this team really needs is another bullpen arm. (maybe SP)

With Jones in RF and TCQ as DH, I cant see how acquiring Dunn/Fielder would vastly improve this team. (when you factor in what it'd cost to acquire them)
Then why is Kenny pursuing a left-handed middle-of-the-order bat? We do need a true ace and a proven lefty out of the pen but we are not as pressed to go after those given our strong starting 4 (Burls, Gavin, Danks, Freddy) and bullpen 4 (Jenks, Thornton, Putz, Santos). Hudson can work as a 5th SP and Threets/Sale can work out of the pen. On the other hand, our DH is freaking Mark Kotsay. That's unacceptable for a contending team. I agree that Dunn and Fielder are too expensive (in terms of prospects) for us to go after but we need to add another guy who can bat cleanup.



A Kotsay+Teahen/Manny swap wouldn't bother me :tongue:
He comes off the DL around Aug 10th...
If the Dodgers did that trade, the fans would not hesitate to grab pitchforks and torches. Kenny would have to get the Dodgers' GM high on some good **** for him to take that trade. Also, Manny is too much trouble and too much money. No thanks.

russ99
07-21-2010, 07:29 PM
Playing devils advocate here - what if Danks was the centerpiece of a Fielder deal?

Obviously we don't want to deal our best pitcher, but he's played hardball by not signing an extension, and his trade value is at an all-time high. He's also had health concerns in the past.

Just saying, we could get one of the best sluggers in the league and fill a large hole in the lineup...

Boondock Saint
07-21-2010, 07:30 PM
Playing devils advocate here - what if Danks was the centerpiece of a Fielder deal?

Obviously we don't want to deal our best pitcher, but he's played hardball by not signing an extension, and his trade value is at an all-time high. He's also had health concerns in the past.

Just saying, we could get one of the best sluggers in the league and fill a large hole in the lineup...

Hell no. Hell no.

russ99
07-21-2010, 07:33 PM
Hell no. Hell no.

Oh, I agree. To have that happen, we need to get a pretty good pitcher back on the deal.

I just think that's more likely than Kenny sending Beckham or Quentin to Washington to rent Dunn for 3 months.

guillensdisciple
07-21-2010, 07:35 PM
Playing devils advocate here - what if Danks was the centerpiece of a Fielder deal?

Obviously we don't want to deal our best pitcher, but he's played hardball by not signing an extension, and his trade value is at an all-time high. He's also had health concerns in the past.

Just saying, we could get one of the best sluggers in the league and fill a large hole in the lineup...


How has he been stubborn?

Pablo_Honey
07-21-2010, 07:47 PM
Obviously we don't want to deal our best pitcher, but he's played hardball by not signing an extension, and his trade value is at an all-time high. He's also had health concerns in the past.

Even though Danks has frustrated Kenny by not signing early cheap extensions, no one can really blame him because there was no need for him to slave himself to a contract. If Danks were going to be stubborn about it, he would have kept Boras a la Joe Crede. The fact that he dropped Boras as his agent shows that he at least wants to stay with this team. On the other hand, we have a first baseman with a not-so-humble personality with an agent the Sox brass decided to not negotiate with. I don't think giving up Danks makes sense. I would give up Gavin though, but I'm sure Brewers would want Danks.

Tragg
07-21-2010, 07:47 PM
Hell no. Hell no.

I wouldn't give up Danks buy I do like the idea of trading veteans, if we had an abundance. But we don't. We may hav a hard time extending Danks... May have to trade him

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-21-2010, 08:05 PM
Playing devils advocate here - what if Danks was the centerpiece of a Fielder deal?

Obviously we don't want to deal our best pitcher, but he's played hardball by not signing an extension, and his trade value is at an all-time high. He's also had health concerns in the past.

Just saying, we could get one of the best sluggers in the league and fill a large hole in the lineup...

Even for Fielder, no way. The Sox have a better chance or re-signing Danks than Fielder. And to think about the rotation for next year if Peavy doesn't come back as planned...

areilly
07-21-2010, 08:25 PM
I wouldn't give up Danks buy I do like the idea of trading veteans, if we had an abundance. But we don't. We may hav a hard time extending Danks... May have to trade him

When the time comes for Danks to hit free agency, I won't blame him for leaving.

getonbckthr
07-21-2010, 08:29 PM
Playing devils advocate here - what if Danks was the centerpiece of a Fielder deal?

Obviously we don't want to deal our best pitcher, but he's played hardball by not signing an extension, and his trade value is at an all-time high. He's also had health concerns in the past.

Just saying, we could get one of the best sluggers in the league and fill a large hole in the lineup...
The list of players I would trade Danks for is extremely small, Fielder is not on that list.

Brian26
07-21-2010, 11:16 PM
I was listening to the Milwaukee ESPN affiliate in my car this evening on the way home. This time of year, AM 540 comes in crystal clear here.

Some of the Milwaukee beat writers and radio hosts are delusional. The general consensus is that Fielder has never stated he plans on leaving Milwaukee when he hits free agency (even though he hired Boras), but, if the Brewers do trade him to the Sox, they expect to receive in return Viciedo, Hudson AND Beckham.

I heard this on the "Thunder and Lightning" show just before 6pm.

MarySwiss
07-21-2010, 11:18 PM
I was listening to the Milwaukee ESPN affiliate in my car this evening on the way home. This time of year, AM 540 comes in crystal clear here.

Some of the Milwaukee beat writers and radio hosts are delusional. The general consensus is that Fielder has never stated he plans on leaving Milwaukee when he hits free agency (even though he hired Boras), but, if the Brewers do trade him to the Sox, they expect to receive in return Viciedo, Hudson AND Beckham.

I heard this on the "Thunder and Lightning" show just before 6pm.

Heh-Heh! If true, they don't want much, do they? :cool:

Boondock Saint
07-21-2010, 11:19 PM
I was listening to the Milwaukee ESPN affiliate in my car this evening on the way home. This time of year, AM 540 comes in crystal clear here.

Some of the Milwaukee beat writers and radio hosts are delusional. The general consensus is that Fielder has never stated he plans on leaving Milwaukee when he hits free agency (even though he hired Boras), but, if the Brewers do trade him to the Sox, they expect to receive in return Viciedo, Hudson AND Beckham.

I heard this on the "Thunder and Lightning" show just before 6pm.

Well, either the Milwaukee beat writers/radio hosts or the Brewers front office are delusional.

Brian26
07-21-2010, 11:24 PM
Heh-Heh! If true, they don't want much, do they? :cool:

It was actually interesting to hear their perspective on the trade. I like trying to see things from a different baseball viewpoint.

I just cannot understand trading Beckham and Hudson right now for a suspect 1.33 year rental though.

MarySwiss
07-21-2010, 11:31 PM
It was actually interesting to hear their perspective on the trade. I like trying to see things from a different baseball viewpoint.

I just cannot understand trading Beckham and Hudson right now for a suspect 1.33 year rental though.

Could not agree more. Not to mention the potential upside Viciedo offers.

balke
07-21-2010, 11:54 PM
It was actually interesting to hear their perspective on the trade. I like trying to see things from a different baseball viewpoint.

I just cannot understand trading Beckham and Hudson right now for a suspect 1.33 year rental though.

What do you mean by "suspect"?

I'm not sure if I like the Beckham/Hudson idea for Fielder. Which makes me think it might be a fair trade (but all too expensive and a sign that people walk this offseason).

Don't fool yourselves though people - this is a guy who's hit 50 HR and last season drove in 141 RBI on the dang Brewers. That's Maggs/Frank calibur hitting.

He'd cost a pretty penny. Gonna have to give up talent - even for a rent.

MarySwiss
07-21-2010, 11:58 PM
What do you mean by "suspect"?

I'm not sure if I like the Beckham/Hudson idea for Fielder. Which makes me think it might be a fair trade (but all too expensive and a sign that people walk this offseason).

Don't fool yourselves though people - this is a guy who's hit 50 HR and last season drove in 141 RBI on the dang Brewers. That's Maggs/Frank calibur hitting.

He'd cost a pretty penny. Gonna have to give up talent - even for a rent.

Sorry, but last time I looked, hitting home runs was not one of our problems; we have several guys who can do it. I'd just as soon let some other team pick up Prince Fielder, especially considering the Boras factor.

balke
07-22-2010, 12:25 AM
Sorry, but last time I looked, hitting home runs was not one of our problems; we have several guys who can do it. I'd just as soon let some other team pick up Prince Fielder, especially considering the Boras factor.


He's more than a HR hitter though. He hits doubles and for average and walks. He's an all around slugger - he's a pure lefty DH. He's probably the #5 or #6 best hitter in the league.

Its a pretty high/risky asking price. I'd say if he gave up Hudson/Beckham - possibly either one... it would be the riskiest move Kenny has made so far. Big time gamble.

Then again - I would've said the same thing about trading Anderson in his 1st or 2nd season.

I do agree though - HR's are not a problem for the Sox right now. I can't deny how good Fielder is... but to me it seems like it would be best to hold on to some cheap young talent and run with the team.

SoxandtheCityTee
07-22-2010, 01:51 AM
I just cannot understand trading Beckham and Hudson right now for a suspect 1.33 year rental though.

Me neither. I was far more upset hearing about this rumored trade than I was over tonight's loss. I'm just going to tell myself it can't possibly be true.

LoveYourSuit
07-22-2010, 02:10 PM
If Beckham only, get's the deal done would you guys do it?

Fielder + Lilebridge (sp)

or


Kotsay + Beckham


Which combo gives us the better chance to with the WS this year?

JermaineDye05
07-22-2010, 02:17 PM
If Beckham only, get's the deal done would you guys do it?

Fielder + Lilebridge (sp)

or


Kotsay + Beckham


Which combo gives us the better chance to with the WS this year?

I think Beckham gives us a better chance to stay as a contender for years to come. We'd only have Prince for the end of this year and 2011 and then he gets a major pay day. Keep Beckham. I really don't need to say that as Kenny has said that Gordon isn't going anywhere.

TheOldRoman
07-22-2010, 02:18 PM
If Beckham only, get's the deal done would you guys do it?

Fielder + Lilebridge (sp)

or


Kotsay + Beckham


Which combo gives us the better chance to with the WS this year? Well, those aren't the only two options. The Sox could give up someone lesser and get a lesser bat that Fielder. Besides that, there are obviously no garantees that we even win the division with Fielder. There is no way I would trade 4.5 years of Beckham for 1.5 year of Fielder, especially when Prince's salary for next year will force the Sox to make salary dumps in other areas.

Rockabilly
07-22-2010, 02:28 PM
I seem to remember a lot of people on this board getting pissed off that the Sox traded our star of the future in Jeremy Reed for Garcia.

I'm not saying that Beckham is going to have a horrible career. I'm just talking about how many people that were wrong about that trade.

More people on this board were so pissed off when the Sox traded Garcia to Philly for Floyd and McCarthy to Texas for Danks. I'm behind KW all the way.

If the Sox were to trade Beckham to the Brewers and he had a solid career but Prince helped us win another World Series. Is the trade worth it?

Whos to say that Fielder wouldn't sign extension with the Sox.

JermaineDye05
07-22-2010, 02:41 PM
I seem to remember a lot of people on this board getting pissed off that the Sox traded our star of the future in Jeremy Reed for Garcia.

I'm not saying that Beckham is going to have a horrible career. I'm just talking about how many people that were wrong about that trade.

More people on this board were so pissed off when the Sox traded Garcia to Philly for Floyd and McCarthy to Texas for Danks. I'm behind KW all the way.

If the Sox were to trade Beckham to the Brewers and he had a solid career but Prince helped us win another World Series. Is the trade worth it?

Whos to say that Fielder wouldn't sign extension with the Sox.

I don't think Reed had the same promise that Beckham did. Sure, he was the top prospect at the time (I think, I really didn't follow the minors then), but where did that put him in baseball?

This is an honest question here. Was Reed as hyped as Beckham? And not by the White Sox but by all of baseball.

All we've read and heard about Beckham from experts such as Buster Olney, Tim Kurkjian, Peter Gammons, etc. is that Beckham is a stud and most everyone agrees that he will be the face of this organization.

Chrisaway
07-22-2010, 02:48 PM
I would only trade Gordon for Prince if somehow we also got Rickie Weeks back as well.

Rockabilly
07-22-2010, 02:49 PM
I don't think Reed had the same promise that Beckham did. Sure, he was the top prospect at the time (I think, I really didn't follow the minors then), but where did that put him in baseball?

This is an honest question here. Was Reed as hyped as Beckham? And not by the White Sox but by all of baseball.

All we've read and heard about Beckham from experts such as Buster Olney, Tim Kurkjian, Peter Gammons, etc. is that Beckham is a stud and most everyone agrees that he will be the face of this organization.


I could be wrong but I believe that Reed had an avg over 400 at Double A in 04 and a year later he led all CF's in range.

WisSoxFan
07-22-2010, 02:59 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reedje03.shtml

Here are Reed's MLB career stats.

I only posted because of the last line of his transactions section from nine days ago.

"July 13, 2010: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2010.shtml)."

Who knew?

edit - Reed hit .409 in Birmingham in 2003 over 66 games. http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/jeremy-reed.shtml

CAREY33
07-22-2010, 03:02 PM
I would not trade Beckham straight up for Fielder. Beckham will not be making the major bucks for several years and I still believe that he will be a future all star.

I would be open to the idea of trading a group of highly rated prospects for Fielder. The Sox would have Fielder under contract for the remainder of this year and next year. If they were not in contention next July they would be able to move Fielder and basically try and recoup the prospects that they just gave up. This would kind of be like what Seattle did with Cliff Lee. Many believe that Seattle actually got better prospects for Lee than what they originally gave up for him.

Rockabilly
07-22-2010, 03:14 PM
Would the Brewers trade Fielder to us for the China Doll in RF?

With them also looking to trade Hart just maybe a package with Quentin would get us Fielder.

Jones and Teahen can take over RF.

LoveYourSuit
07-22-2010, 03:16 PM
Would the Brewers trade Fielder to us for the China Doll in RF?

With them also looking to trade Hart just maybe a package with Quentin would get us Fielder.

Jones and Teahen can take over RF.


God yes.

Quentin is Mike Brown from the Bears. Real good when healthy, but can't stay healthy.

Rockabilly
07-22-2010, 03:19 PM
God yes.

Quentin is Mike Brown from the Bears. Real good when healthy, but can't stay healthy.

I agree.. Plus it will be a lot more easier to replace Q this off season.

Just maybe Q and a prospect would get us Fielder.

LoveYourSuit
07-22-2010, 03:23 PM
I agree.. Plus it will be a lot more easier to replace Q this off season.

Just maybe Q and a prospect would get us Fielder.


I think Q's stock around MLB is very low for the same reasons we are upset here about him. Cant' stay healthy.

So, I don't know if he would mean anything significant to Milwaukee. But I could be wrong.

Rockabilly
07-22-2010, 03:25 PM
I think Q's stock around MLB is very low for the same reasons we are upset here about him. Cant' stay healthy.

So, I don't know if he would mean anything significant to Milwaukee. But I could be wrong.

Didn't the Nats wanted Q for Dunn? I thought I read that somewhere. If true I'd do that trade in a heartbeat but would rather have Fielder

doublem23
07-22-2010, 03:27 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reedje03.shtml

Here are Reed's MLB career stats.

I only posted because of the last line of his transactions section from nine days ago.

"July 13, 2010: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2010.shtml)."

Who knew?

edit - Reed hit .409 in Birmingham in 2003 over 66 games. http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/jeremy-reed.shtml

Everybody Here...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=121770&highlight=Jeremy+Reed

doublem23
07-22-2010, 03:29 PM
I think Q's stock around MLB is very low for the same reasons we are upset here about him. Cant' stay healthy.

So, I don't know if he would mean anything significant to Milwaukee. But I could be wrong.

Considering it's widely reported that the Nats want either Beckham or Quentin as the centerpiece for a deal involving Dunn, I'd say your opinion of his value around the league is, at best, questionable.

That, or the Nats are desperately trying to get rid of Dunn and they think Gordon Beckham is ****, too.

LoveYourSuit
07-22-2010, 03:46 PM
Considering it's widely reported that the Nats want either Beckham or Quentin as the centerpiece for a deal involving Dunn, I'd say your opinion of his value around the league is, at best, questionable.

That, or the Nats are desperately trying to get rid of Dunn and they think Gordon Beckham is ****, too.

So because "it's widely reported (by who, God only knows)" my opinion of his value around the league is questionable?

I guess let's take these reports as facts then.

I'm wrong then.

:dunno:

Foulke You
07-22-2010, 04:00 PM
If Beckham only, get's the deal done would you guys do it?

Fielder + Lilebridge (sp)

or


Kotsay + Beckham


Which combo gives us the better chance to with the WS this year?
Losing Beckham and replacing him with Lillibridge full time would weaken your infield defense. Lillibridge *seems* like he has figured out how to hit MLB pitching but I'm not ready to hand him the keys to the starting 2B job yet. He could revert to being a .200 hitter and then you'd be stuck with a light hitting 2B who can't turn a double play to save his life.

If you traded Beckham for Fielder, you would either have to move Omar to 2B and start Viciedo full time at 3B or KW would have to possibly look outside the organization for a stop gap. Adam Kennedy, Ryan Theriot, and Alberto Callaspo are all 2Bs that are supposed to be on the trade block. I'm not advocating any of those guys, just pointing out that KW has options outside the organization if he decides to move Bacon.

Zisk77
07-22-2010, 04:19 PM
Getting Fileder or Dunn doesn't guarantee us the division let alone a WS. Lets face it we would still be prohibitive underdogs vs Yankees. Probably dogs to the Rays/Sawks as well. Sure in a short series anything can happen, but it could still happen without Dunn/Fielder.

If you make the trade you have to win now...or next year with fielder. But you'll have traded away a player who will probably be good for the next 10-15 years...and is only going to get better defensively. This will hurt us for the future.

I think we try to acquire a lesser bat that doesn't involve Beckham/Hudson and try to win now, and continue to build so we will win for years to come.

palehozenychicty
07-22-2010, 04:23 PM
Getting Fileder or Dunn doesn't guarantee us the division let alone a WS. Lets face it we would still be prohibitive underdogs vs Yankees. Probably dogs to the Rays/Sawks as well. Sure in a short series anything can happen, but it could still happen without Dunn/Fielder.

If you make the trade you have to win now...or next year with fielder. But you'll have traded away a player who will probably be good for the next 10-15 years...and is only going to get better defensively. This will hurt us for the future.

I think we try to acquire a lesser bat that doesn't involve Beckham/Hudson and try to win now, and continue to build so we will win for years to come.

I'd rather take this approach as well. Is Fielder really going to make that much of a difference? This season? I doubt it. I like Beckham. Let's keep him.

sullythered
07-22-2010, 04:41 PM
I'd rather take this approach as well. Is Fielder really going to make that much of a difference? This season? I doubt it. I like Beckham. Let's keep him.

Yes. Yes he would. He's super awesome. Still, I wouldn't move Beckham for him. He's gonna be awesome too, and cheap for a long time.

JermaineDye05
07-22-2010, 06:08 PM
Jon Heyman was just on MLB Network.

FWIW, he said that he believes Fielder will stay in Milwaukee (as do I for that matter), but he says the Sox are interested and the talk is Hudson and Flowers "potentially".

He also mentioned the Sox have looked at Dunn (already knew this) and LaRoche (this I hadn't heard).

tm1119
07-22-2010, 06:20 PM
Give me Laroche. He gives us a legit LH bat in the middle of our lineup that wouldn't cost us an arm and a leg. Morel + a pitching prospect not named Hudson for Laroche?

JermaineDye05
07-22-2010, 06:22 PM
Give me Laroche. He gives us a legit LH bat in the middle of our lineup that wouldn't cost us an arm and a leg. Morel + a pitching prospect not named Hudson for Laroche?

Call me crazy, but I think we could get LaRoche without giving up Morel.

sullythered
07-22-2010, 06:24 PM
Give me Laroche. He gives us a legit LH bat in the middle of our lineup that wouldn't cost us an arm and a leg. Morel + a pitching prospect not named Hudson for Laroche?

I'm not interested in giving up Morel for a Laroche.

mzh
07-22-2010, 06:30 PM
Hmmm.... Just speculation on my part. Please don't kill me :club:.

Would you give up TCQ, Torres, and Santos for Fielder? I'd do TCQ straight up Fielder, but I'm trying to be slightly realistic as a biased fan :D:

JermaineDye05
07-22-2010, 06:36 PM
Hmmm.... Just speculation on my part. Please don't kill me :club:.

Would you give up TCQ, Torres, and Santos for Fielder? I'd do TCQ straight up Fielder, but I'm trying to be slightly realistic as a biased fan :D:

I'd do it, but I don't think Milwaukee would be interested in the package.

I'm also not too keen on trading pieces from our bullpen right now, especially given Bobby's struggles. However, if it nets you Prince, go for it.

Craig Grebeck
07-22-2010, 06:42 PM
Obligatory 'lol Carlos Torres.'

tm1119
07-22-2010, 06:42 PM
Call me crazy, but I think we could get LaRoche without giving up Morel.

Behind Hudson, Mitchell, Dayan, Flowers, and Morel there is literally nothing in our system. Not sure who you plan on trading that a team would be remotely interested in. And Morel is by no means a top prospect. He's just standing out
in our poor system. He's got a decent future but he's by no means a can't miss prospect

Craig Grebeck
07-22-2010, 06:43 PM
Behind Hudson, Mitchell, Dayan, Flowers, and Morel there is literally nothing in our system. Not sure who you plan on trading that a team would be remotely interested in. And Morel is by no means a top prospect. He's just standing out
in our poor system. He's got a decent future but he's by no means a can't miss prospect
Eduardo Escobar might have some value, but I'd rather hold onto him and see if he can continue to develop.

LoveYourSuit
07-22-2010, 06:45 PM
I'd do it, but I don't think Milwaukee would be interested in the package.

I'm also not too keen on trading pieces from our bullpen right now, especially given Bobby's struggles. However, if it nets you Prince, go for it.


If you can get Prince without moving Hudson or Beckham ..... you have to do it.


And I have no problem moving a converted reliever with a WHIP at 1.50 (Santos). You can find a replacement for that.

sullythered
07-22-2010, 06:50 PM
Hmmm.... Just speculation on my part. Please don't kill me :club:.

Would you give up TCQ, Torres, and Santos for Fielder? I'd do TCQ straight up Fielder, but I'm trying to be slightly realistic as a biased fan :D:

If we had some kind of extension in place, yes. Fielder is an elite hitter.

cards press box
07-22-2010, 08:07 PM
Call me crazy, but I think we could get LaRoche without giving up Morel.

I agree. LaRoche is a free agent at the end of the year. He doesn't have a long history with Arizona and may want to go to a more competitive team. Consequently, the price to get him should not be that steep and shouldn't include Morel or any other top prospect such as Hudson.

If the Sox could get LaRoche for low level prospects, then I would call it a day trade wise unless the Sox could find a way to move Teahan to another organization. I don't know how feasible that is.

As to the Sox other needs (lefty reliever and starter), I agree that they will probably call up Chris Sale soon and I am perfectly happy to see the Sox give Dan Hudson the opportunity to pitch here and hopefully establish himself as a stalwart in the Sox rotation for years to come.

tm1119
07-22-2010, 09:14 PM
Well yeah maybe we wouldnt have to give up Morel to get Laroche. I though he was a type B free agent, but hes not even that, hes nothing. So Im sure AZ would be happy to trade him for just about anything on second thought. We would just have to beat out any other suitor for. Something like Jon Gilmore and Jhonny Nunez would be more appropriate I think. Makes Laroche sound even more appropriate. LH, definite upgrade to our DH problem, and wouldnt have to give up anything that mortgages our future.

Brian26
07-22-2010, 09:32 PM
Would you give up TCQ, Torres, and Santos for Fielder? I'd do TCQ straight up Fielder, but I'm trying to be slightly realistic as a biased fan :D:

What do you gain with that? You fill one hole temporarily (DH), but you open another long-term (RF), and lose Santos and Torres in the process.

tm1119
07-22-2010, 09:38 PM
People need to realize that Carlos Torres= DJ Carrasco at best. Hes a dime a dozen type player that no team would actually ask for in a trade.

kittle42
07-22-2010, 09:46 PM
What do you gain with that? You fill one hole temporarily (DH), but you open another long-term (RF), and lose Santos and Torres in the process.

How is Torres a loss?

Why does everyone seem to think anyone who has actually spent 5 minutes on the MLB roster is worth something?