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View Full Version : *Official* 'Losing to The Royals Makes Me Grienke' 6/30 CWS vs KC Postgame Thread


Frater Perdurabo
06-30-2010, 09:41 PM
Craptacular

GoGoCrede
06-30-2010, 09:42 PM
Damn

stevied23
06-30-2010, 09:42 PM
Craptacular
I miss interleague play already.

soltrain21
06-30-2010, 09:42 PM
Ah, hamburgers. Threets better stay up when Jenks comes back. Get Williams the hell out of here.

GoGoCrede
06-30-2010, 09:42 PM
I like your title, Frater. :smile:

stevied23
06-30-2010, 09:43 PM
I fully expected Linebrink to give up at least 3 runs when he came in during the 8th so that's good I guess :rolleyes:

OmahaSoxFan
06-30-2010, 09:43 PM
I am REALLY starting to hate it when the Sox play the Royals... ugh, why does it seem like the team goes into a shell when they play these guys??? Lost opportunity to make up a game or two in the standings on the 2nd place team against a weak AL squad, and the Sox lay another egg... Oh well, shake it off guys and let's go take 2 or 3 from the Rangers this weekend.

JB98
06-30-2010, 09:43 PM
Damn those tack-on runs...

Williams stinks and needs to go, but Pena's terrible outing was probably the biggest reason for the loss.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:43 PM
Nice comback, but another heartbreaker ALC series.

Domeshot17
06-30-2010, 09:44 PM
This one is on Ozzie. Close game and you turn to the worst guys in the pen. Its a shame Peavy gets the loss here, The loss should be handed to Tony Pena.

RadioheadRocks
06-30-2010, 09:44 PM
How can we lose two out of three to the mother****in' Royals???!!!???!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 09:44 PM
Damn those tack-on runs...

Williams stinks and needs to go, but Pena's terrible outing was probably the biggest reason for the loss.

I blame Ozzie for putting him in :tongue:

veeter
06-30-2010, 09:44 PM
The Sox came into the month 22-28, 8.5 games back. They start July 40-37, 2.5 back. I'll take it.

stevied23
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
How can we lose two out of three to the mother****in' Royals???!!!???!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Because we're back to playing the American League and more specifically the bottom of the AL Central

Frater Perdurabo
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
If this morning we had been told nothing more than that Peavy would have a quality start and we'd score six runs on Greinke, 95% of us would have thought we'd win.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/27568/original/21187-101796-facepalm6jpg-468x.jpg?1258761334

theamb
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
Would it be fair to call the Royals or the Indians "The Pirates" of the AL Central?

Either way, it seems as if we can't beat either of them

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
This one is on Ozzie. Close game and you turn to the worst guys in the pen. Its a shame Peavy gets the loss here, The loss should be handed to Tony Pena.

Williams should have never made the team:angry::angry:, and Pena is just a straight hard thrower.

soltrain21
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
The Sox came into the month 22-28, 8.5 games back. They start July 40-37, 2.5 back. I'll take it.

Correct. Make some changes to put us over the top, Kenny.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:47 PM
The Sox came into the month 22-28, 8.5 games back. They start July 40-37, 2.5 back. I'll take it.

Not when you keep dropping series to KC and CLE.

stevied23
06-30-2010, 09:47 PM
The Sox came into the month 22-28, 8.5 games back. They start July 40-37, 2.5 back. I'll take it.

I agree but if we can't stop the ship from sinking against poor teams like this they'll be 9.5 games back again very soon.

JB98
06-30-2010, 09:48 PM
This one is on Ozzie. Close game and you turn to the worst guys in the pen. Its a shame Peavy gets the loss here, The loss should be handed to Tony Pena.

Putz and Thornton can't pitch everyday. The Jenks absence has a trickle-down effect.

It was Pena's job to keep the Sox in the game. He didn't do it. The loss is on Pena, not Ozzie.

mcsoxfan
06-30-2010, 09:48 PM
Damn those tack-on runs...

Williams stinks and needs to go, but Pena's terrible outing was probably the biggest reason for the loss.

They both have to go. The Sox must address their middle relief.
Williams and Pena have now been directly responsible for 2 of the last 3 losses because of their collective failures to hold the Sox close.

And bring me Mike Dunn. I've yet to see the fascination with Kotsay.

russ99
06-30-2010, 09:48 PM
This one is on Ozzie. Close game and you turn to the worst guys in the pen. Its a shame Peavy gets the loss here, The loss should be handed to Tony Pena.

You want to bring in the setup man or the closer in the 7th inning when behind by 2 runs?

Putting in Williams was a poor decision, but Pena gave up the runs. I would have liked to have seen Threets.

Hartman
06-30-2010, 09:48 PM
This series was a test for this Sox team. They failed. This team will end up .500 or worse.

soltrain21
06-30-2010, 09:48 PM
Not when you keep dropping series to KC and CLE.

So you won't take being over .500 and two and a half games back if you were told that at the beginning of the month? Got it.

Frater Perdurabo
06-30-2010, 09:49 PM
The Sox came into the month 22-28, 8.5 games back. They start July 40-37, 2.5 back. I'll take it.


They are 4-8 against the Indians and now 4-5 against the Royals. That's 8-13 against two of the three worst teams in the AL. Turn that around to 13-8 and the Sox would be in first place.

Corlose 15
06-30-2010, 09:49 PM
Ah, hamburgers. Threets better stay up when Jenks comes back. Get Williams the hell out of here.

My thoughts exactly. There is not lead that Williams (and Pena to a lesser extent) can't blow, or deficit he can't expand.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:49 PM
If this morning we had been told nothing more than that Peavy would have a quality start and we'd score six runs on Greinke, 95% of us would have thought we'd win.

However that number drops to less than 1% if such games features an appearance by Randy Williams and/or Scott Linebrink.

Baron
06-30-2010, 09:49 PM
Good news is I think we can finally say bye to Randy :D: Threets looked better than Randy and all I needed was 1 inning to see that

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
They both have to go. The Sox must address their middle relief.
Williams and Pena have now been directly responsible for 2 of the last 3 losses because of their collective failures to hold the Sox close.

And bring me Mike Dunn. I've yet to see the fascination with Kotsay.

Ok, first, Tony Pena has been fine this season. RAAAAAAAANDY needs to go.

Second, who the **** is Mike Dunn?

BadBobbyJenks
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
Next 7 will give us a good idea of who we really are.

Rohan
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
:angry:

russ99
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
Good news is I think we can finally say bye to Randy :D: Threets looked better than Randy and all I needed was 1 inning to see that

No kidding. Kenny should DFA Williams tomorrow.

Isn't Bobby going to be back Friday?

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
You want to bring in the setup man or the closer in the 7th inning when behind by 2 runs?

Putting in Williams was a poor decision, but Pena gave up the runs. I would have liked to have seen Threets.

I would have went Santos, but as much as it pains me to admit lol you're right, Pena was probably the right call. Nice to see Threets perform. I'd assume Williams is done.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
So you won't take being over .500 and two and a half games back if you were told that at the beginning of the month? Got it.

Shades of 2003 when we couldn't beat teams we were supposed to and played contenders tough.

We have not done either yet. That +3 can vanish just as quickly as it came.

Mohoney
06-30-2010, 09:52 PM
We haven't beaten Joakim Soria since April 24, 2007, which was the first time he ever faced us. I'm getting sick of NEVER being able to win one against this guy.

Rohan
06-30-2010, 09:52 PM
Ok, first, Tony Pena has been fine this season. RAAAAAAAANDY needs to go.

Second, who the **** is Mike Dunn?

Adam Dunn's younger more agile brother who rarely strikes out and plays a fantastic outfield.

RockJock07
06-30-2010, 09:52 PM
Take 2 of 3 from the hot Rangers and the Sox will be fine. The Sox scored 6 against Grienke and lost, I can take that, should have taken the 1st game of this series.

With that said, the Sox need to play better against the Indians and Royals.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 09:53 PM
Adam Dunn's younger more agile brother who rarely strikes out and plays a fantastic outfield.

All of Mike's outs are weak pop-ups and ground balls to the shortstop. WAY BETTER THAN STRIKEOUTS!

Baron
06-30-2010, 09:54 PM
No kidding. Kenny should DFA Williams tomorrow.

Isn't Bobby going to be back Friday?

Yes he will be back Friday so goodbye Randy

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 09:55 PM
All of Mike's outs are weak pop-ups and ground balls to the shortstop. WAY BETTER THAN STRIKEOUTS!
:rolling:

Maybe they were "productive" ground balls.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:56 PM
Ok, first, Tony Pena has been fine this season. RAAAAAAAANDY needs to go.

Second, who the **** is Mike Dunn?

He pitched for us briefly in the early 90's. He was the guy who had a great fluke rookie season with PIT then sucked afterwards.

Don't think we need a guy who hasn't pitched in nearly 20 years, do we??

veeter
06-30-2010, 09:57 PM
I agree but if we can't stop the ship from sinking against poor teams like this they'll be 9.5 games back again very soon.Well, it's a question of whether they really can only feast on NL teams, or have they really put something together. This KC series was a trap series. They were hot as a pistol, destined to cool off. KC is a very good hitting team. I think with a little tweaking by Kenny, this team could be special. Primarily because of Putz, Santos, Thornton and Jenks. That's hard to match.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 09:57 PM
I'm adding Lillibridge to my fantasy team, STAT.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 09:58 PM
Yes he will be back Friday so goodbye Randy

Ozzie will probably lobby for Viciedo to be sent back to AAA because we don't need him and there is no room for him in the lineup.

Thus, Randy stays!:angry::angry::angry::angry:

stevied23
06-30-2010, 09:59 PM
Well, it's a question of whether they really can only feast on NL teams, or have they really put something together. This KC series was a trap series. They were hot as a pistol, destined to cool off. KC is a very good hitting team. I think with a little tweaking by Kenny, this team could be special. Primarily because of Putz, Santos, Thornton and Jenks. That's hard to match.

Any chance that tweaking includes trading Scott Linebrink for Adam Dunn straight up?!? :cool:

mcsoxfan
06-30-2010, 09:59 PM
[QUOTE=hi im skot;2538474]Ok, first, Tony Pena has been fine this season. RAAAAAAAANDY needs to go.

Second, who the **** is Mike Dunn?[/QUOTe

I don't know what parallel universe you're watching baseball on but the tony pena that pitched tonight in Kansas City. MO and on sunday in Chicago for the Chicago American League Ballclub here on planet Earth didn't look to great to me.

And I meant Adam.

Jerko
06-30-2010, 09:59 PM
Looks like we already signed Mike Dunn. Don't think he's Adam's brother though.
http://www.5chicago.com/new-mix-monday/images/mike-dunn-550.jpg

PhillipsBubba
06-30-2010, 10:00 PM
How can we lose two out of three to the mother****in' Royals???!!!???!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Because, unfortunately the White Sox are who we thought they were before interleague play.

I hope KW resists the temptation to gut the farm system for this season...this team isn't worth it.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 10:00 PM
Looks like we already signed Mike Dunn. Don't think he's Adam's brother though.
http://www.5chicago.com/new-mix-monday/images/mike-dunn-550.jpg

Jerko wins the thread.

veeter
06-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Jerko wins the thread.Yep.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 10:03 PM
I don't know what parallel universe you're watching baseball on but the tony pena that pitched tonight in Kansas City. MO and on sunday in Chicago for the Chicago American League Ballclub here on planet Earth didn't look to great to me.

And I meant Adam.

You're cherry-picking his two worst outings. He's struggling now, but he's been a solid arm throughout the year.

Not every one of your relievers can be lights-out; Pena is more than serviceable out of the pen.

ChiSoxGirl
06-30-2010, 10:03 PM
Randy Williams... HE GONE!!!! Per Rongey, he was just optioned to AAA. :party:

DrCrawdad
06-30-2010, 10:04 PM
Craptacular

Randy Williams, hey it would have made for a nice story if you'd been able to be useful. As it is, you're not.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 10:04 PM
Randy Williams... HE GONE!!!! Per Rongey, he was just optioned to AAA. :party:

I'd prefer DFA'd.

RadioheadRocks
06-30-2010, 10:04 PM
Randy Williams... HE GONE!!!! Per Rongey, he was just optioned to AAA. :party:

Halle****ingluliah!!!!

stevied23
06-30-2010, 10:06 PM
A few more series like this, I think we should sell. Mike Dunn would.

http://www.michaeldunn.com/MD_Images/MikeDunn_tuxSign.jpg

tstrike2000
06-30-2010, 10:07 PM
Nice rally, but I would really like it if we never had to pitch Williams or Pena again.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 10:07 PM
I'd prefer DFA'd.

He'd probably get claimed by CLE or KC and really stick it up our ass when he faces us.

Then his fan will cry that we never should have let him go.

ChiSoxGirl
06-30-2010, 10:07 PM
I'd prefer DFA'd.

At this point, take what you can get. At least you won't see his ass pitching with the big club anytime soon!

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 10:07 PM
We need to wrangle up a couple wins in Texas this weekend. Kenny, get Mr. Dunn on the phone NOW!

http://www.friendsofmesalibrary.org/images/event/mike_dunn.jpg

tstrike2000
06-30-2010, 10:08 PM
At this point, take what you can get. At least you won't see his ass pitching with the big club anytime soon!

1-3 since SD, CA.

GoGoCrede
06-30-2010, 10:08 PM
He'd probably get claimed by CLE or KC and really stick it up our ass when he faces us.

Then his fan will cry that we never should have let him go.

I don't know if you meant to make "fan" singular, but it cracked me up anyway.

hi im skot
06-30-2010, 10:08 PM
Then his fan will cry that we never should have let him go.

His mom posts here?

RadioheadRocks
06-30-2010, 10:09 PM
His mom posts here?


She'll probably cry elsewhere.

ChiSoxGirl
06-30-2010, 10:10 PM
1-3 since SD, CA.

Thanks for that friendly reminder, Brian. :(:

veeter
06-30-2010, 10:10 PM
By the way, Dayan Viciedo can really swing the bat.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 10:10 PM
Looks like we already signed Mike Dunn. Don't think he's Adam's brother though.
http://www.5chicago.com/new-mix-monday/images/mike-dunn-550.jpg

Nice, but this photo might have been more fitting:

http://www.5chicago.com/features/may2008/mike-dunn233x233.jpg

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 10:11 PM
By the way, Dayan Viciedo can really swing the bat.

He can. We just need to find a position for him.

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 10:13 PM
he can. We just need to find a position for him.
Designated Hitter
(!)

JB98
06-30-2010, 10:14 PM
Thanks for that friendly reminder, Brian. :(:

White Sox with Jen on vacation: 10-5
White Sox with Jen in town: 30-32

I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin....

tstrike2000
06-30-2010, 10:15 PM
Thanks for that friendly reminder, Brian. :(:

Kidding! Sheesh, can't have any fun. They haven't played well against KC this year, so they'll just get back on track next series. :praying:

ChicagoG19
06-30-2010, 10:18 PM
I guess it is back to reality in the American League. The ride (in the National League) was fun while it lasted. :angry::angry::angry:

soltrain21
06-30-2010, 10:18 PM
He can. We just need to find a position for him.

If only there a position on this team for a guy who is a pretty shady fielder currently filled by a not great hitter.

ChiSoxGirl
06-30-2010, 10:19 PM
White Sox with Jen on vacation: 10-5
White Sox with Jen in town: 30-32

I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin....

I think I need to go on more vacations! :wink: Do you think Minnesota will count?

Kidding! Sheesh, can't have any fun. They haven't played well against KC this year, so they'll just back on track next series. :praying:

Oh, relax. You know you didn't actually hurt my feelings. :cool:

GoGoCrede
06-30-2010, 10:20 PM
I guess it is back to reality in the American League. The ride (in the National League) was fun while it lasted. :angry::angry::angry:

You act like we'll never win a game again....:?:

DrCrawdad
06-30-2010, 10:21 PM
He can. We just need to find a position for him.

Designated Hitter
(!)

That's right. Until Dayan proves otherwise, he should be in the lineup everyday.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 10:42 PM
Damn those tack-on runs...

Williams stinks and needs to go, but Pena's terrible outing was probably the biggest reason for the loss.

This one is on Ozzie. Close game and you turn to the worst guys in the pen. Its a shame Peavy gets the loss here, The loss should be handed to Tony Pena.

I guess the Jenks's absences and our starters not getting through the 7th inning the entire series caught up to us today. If we keep having to turn things over to the pen after 6 1/3 innings, then we're not going to always go straight to Putz or Thornton (with Jenks gone).

Williams is terrible and is now on his way to Charlotte. Tony Pena blew it for us - I haven't been too impressed with him. Why wasn't Santos an option in relief of Peavy?

Oh well, for some reason KC hits us well. The one thing they're terrible at is fundamentals. That fly ball that Guillen let drop in front of him was brutal (for them). But I guess he made up for it in the 9th by robbing Kotsay.

This sucks, but at least we're only 2 1/2 games back.

TDog
06-30-2010, 10:43 PM
Jake Peavy needed a better outing today. It figured to be a pitching duel against Greinke, and Greinke outpitched Peavy for six innings.

A further problem was that Peavy only went six innings, and with Jenks gone, the bullpen isn't as deep. Thornton and Putz were taxed last night and probably would have been available if the Sox had a close lead or were in a tie game. Peavy needed to go deeper into the game. I don't know if he was tired or if he reached an arbitrary pitch limit. Williams was only in to face Podsednik. The real damage was done against Pena, pretty much has to come into the game in that situation anyway.

If the Royals don't have a big seventh, I don't know that the White Sox have a big eighth. Greinke's problems have always been mental, and I'm guessing rather than the White Sox wearing him down or catching up with him, he had trouble in his mind moving from pitching in a close game to having a big lead. That was five of the quickest runs the White Sox have scored all season, especially without the benefit of a home run. It's too bad the Royals scored quite so many runs when Pena was in the game because the Sox could have tied the game before the Royals had time to warm up a reliever.

The bullpen in the series suffered from lacking its normal depth with the absence of Jenks. That wouldn't have been a problem if the starters had been able to go deeper into games. The Twins bullpen, for example, has been overworked lately but has been given entire days off with Pavano pitching complete games in his last two outings.

People who believe Jenks is expendable because someone else could close effectively is missing the importance of bullpen depth.

Threets looked good. Coming in with the bases empty and the Royals already having scored four runs, he faced much less pressure than he would have if he had been brought in to face Podsednik. Still, he is probably a better option than Williams if only because the word seems to have gotten around on how to attack Williams. He doesn't seem a mystery.

If Lillibridge gets a single in his next pinch-hit appearance, he will have hit for the cycle as a pinch-hitter. I think all of his hits this year have been as a pinch-hitter, though.

It's a tough way to lose a game, and generally you like to see that White Sox win their multi-triple games. It was nice to see the Sox didn't give up when they went down six late. The only two pitchers the White Sox faced were All-Stars last year. But, as it usually does, it came down to the starting pitching.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 10:44 PM
Putz and Thornton can't pitch everyday. The Jenks absence has a trickle-down effect.

It was Pena's job to keep the Sox in the game. He didn't do it. The loss is on Pena, not Ozzie.

Agreed. I made my post before I got to this in the thread. :wink:

They especially can't pitch for our pen all the time if we have to turn to the relievers after 6+ innings.

sox1970
06-30-2010, 10:45 PM
This sucks, but at least we're only 2 1/2 games back.

It's ok for now, but if they leave Minnesota in a couple weeks at 5 behind Minnesota and Detroit, we're back to sell mode.

This is a big series coming up.

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 10:47 PM
You act like we'll never win a game again....:?:

He's right though. When we play the NL, neither team has a DH (or they are both using bench players to DH) so our team is better. But against the AL, they have real DHs and it puts us at a disadvantage. Not rocket science. Kenny and Ozzie are killing us right now.

guillensdisciple
06-30-2010, 11:02 PM
Damn, you do need a complete team to win baseball games.

Get them Friday. 2.5 games back is still nothing.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 11:04 PM
It's ok for now, but if they leave Minnesota in a couple weeks at 5 behind Minnesota and Detroit, we're back to sell mode.

This is a big series coming up.

That's all i'm saying - it's ok for now. Of course, we have to play better now against better teams.

soxinem1
06-30-2010, 11:14 PM
I don't know if you meant to make "fan" singular, but it cracked me up anyway.

It was intentional.:smile:

october23sp
06-30-2010, 11:27 PM
Well we just lost a series to KC. We don't have the magic of the 11 in a row, time to rely on skill now, which I think we have. This COULD be a plus for us, tells us no one is afraid of us and that we will have to kick their asses to get respect.

Nelfox02
06-30-2010, 11:59 PM
It's ok for now, but if they leave Minnesota in a couple weeks at 5 behind Minnesota and Detroit, we're back to sell mode.

This is a big series coming up.


All the series are big when you are trying to stay in a race....this was a big series as well I had tonights game tagged for a loss before this series even started....I am still not over dropping the game Monday....the fact we came oh so close from stealing a big W today just made the result of this series all the more frustrating The sox have come a hit away in each of their last 3 losses from snatching victory from the jaws of defeat......its great they give us these finished......but it would have been nice to grab a W in these

when this road trip started I figured we would be lucky to get 1 in Tex....I still feel that way and that makes dropping the series to KC even more painful.....based on the pitching match up I see very little chance of winning Saturday....Sunday is Feldman, who we cannot hit We have a shot on Friday, but that Texas offense is scary, especially in Arlington.....I have a feeling Big Game, Danks, and Mark get hit all over the place......

I hope I m wrong, but I would be shocked if they win this series

LoveYourSuit
07-01-2010, 12:16 AM
Well, we got the BP Cup :dunno:

JB98
07-01-2010, 12:25 AM
Doesn't look like there is any Pick to Click thread tonight, so I just gave it to Lillibridge for his three-run triple in my TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=3989).

One other comment for all the folks who just can't believe the Sox lost a series to the Royals: The Yankees have lost two games in a row AT HOME to the last-place Mariners. This stuff happens in baseball. Bad teams do win series against good teams. The Sox aren't the only team to lose a series to a ****ty team. Now, the Sox aren't as good as the Yankees. That's for damn sure. But losing two out of three to the Royals does not necessarily mean the Sox are going to fail miserably the rest of the year.

Remain calm. It will be OK. The Sox will likely struggle in Texas, but Kenny will get us that left-handed bat and things will get better. :cool:

Rikirk
07-01-2010, 12:36 AM
Remain calm. It will be OK. The Sox will likely struggle in Texas, but Kenny will get us that left-handed bat and things will get better.


So certain are you?

Heres hopin'

konerko 14
07-01-2010, 12:37 AM
One of the few games this year that the bullpen wasn't good this year, Nice triple Lillibridge! Williams is sent down!!!

thomas35forever
07-01-2010, 12:53 AM
Calm down everyone. We indeed should be more upset about losing on Monday to another soft thrower.

Take a day to collect your thoughts and come back here on Friday.

TDog
07-01-2010, 02:42 AM
He's right though. When we play the NL, neither team has a DH (or they are both using bench players to DH) so our team is better. But against the AL, they have real DHs and it puts us at a disadvantage. Not rocket science. Kenny and Ozzie are killing us right now.

Yes. During the offseason, the White Sox should have gone after a real DH like Wilson Betemit, who gave the Royals an offensive advantage this week.

DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH.

RadioheadRocks
07-01-2010, 03:01 AM
Yes. During the offseason, the White Sox should have gone after a real DH like Wilson Betemit, who gave the Royals an offensive advantage this week.

DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH.


All well and good, but Betemit sucked ass when he was with us last season. Best way I could describe this series is he bit the hand he once **** in. :angry:

Dick Allen
07-01-2010, 06:46 AM
Doesn't look like there is any Pick to Click thread tonight, so I just gave it to Lillibridge for his three-run triple in my TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=3989).

One other comment for all the folks who just can't believe the Sox lost a series to the Royals: The Yankees have lost two games in a row AT HOME to the last-place Mariners. This stuff happens in baseball. Bad teams do win series against good teams. The Sox aren't the only team to lose a series to a ****ty team. Now, the Sox aren't as good as the Yankees. That's for damn sure. But losing two out of three to the Royals does not necessarily mean the Sox are going to fail miserably the rest of the year.

Remain calm. It will be OK. The Sox will likely struggle in Texas, but Kenny will get us that left-handed bat and things will get better. :cool:The Yankees lost to Cliff Lee and Felix Hernandez. That's not a surprise, no matter how bad the Mariners are. The Sox didn't have to face those two when they swept the Mariners in April.

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 07:19 AM
Yes. During the offseason, the White Sox should have gone after a real DH like Wilson Betemit, who gave the Royals an offensive advantage this week.

DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH.

That is a terrible way to look at it.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 07:30 AM
Yes. During the offseason, the White Sox should have gone after a real DH like Wilson Betemit, who gave the Royals an offensive advantage this week.

DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH.
This isn't even worth it anymore.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 07:46 AM
Yes. During the offseason, the White Sox should have gone after a real DH like Wilson Betemit, who gave the Royals an offensive advantage this week.

DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH.

What are you talking about? The Sox are allowed to use a DH in about 150 of their games, it's very much a real position and, if you notice, generally good teams in the AL have a guy who can actually hit in that spot. You're trying to reinvent the wheel for the 9 games we're on the road in NL parks at the expense of sacrificing 150 games played under normal rules? GMAB.

kufram
07-01-2010, 07:49 AM
He's right though. When we play the NL, neither team has a DH (or they are both using bench players to DH) so our team is better. But against the AL, they have real DHs and it puts us at a disadvantage. Not rocket science. Kenny and Ozzie are killing us right now.


One position, or in the DH case half a position, did not put us in the spot we found ourselves in up until the run... that is certainly not rocket science but a drastic oversimplification.

Had the starting pitching been doing what they were supposed to do, and all of the offense apart from PK and Rios been hitting anything like what was reasonably expected, and the defense played like it has of late (no NL excuse for that, I hope) we would have won more games even with the DH numbers we had.

Dunn could be the answer or he could actually cause more problems then he solves. I'm a fan of Thome but had he been here the difference in our record may well have been no different then it is because of the poor performance from virtually everyone else.

Do I hope we get a serious LH bat? Sure... who wouldn't? But I also think that Kotsay must have a hot streak coming at some point because of his extraordinarily low average. No one knows the answer.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 07:57 AM
One position, or in the DH case half a position, did not put us in the spot we found ourselves in up until the run... that is certainly not rocket science but a drastic oversimplification.

Had the starting pitching been doing what they were supposed to do, and all of the offense apart from PK and Rios been hitting anything like what was reasonably expected, and the defense played like it has of late (no NL excuse for that, I hope) we would have won more games even with the DH numbers we had.

Dunn could be the answer or he could actually cause more problems then he solves. I'm a fan of Thome but had he been here the difference in our record may well have been no different then it is because of the poor performance from virtually everyone else.

Do I hope we get a serious LH bat? Sure... who wouldn't? But I also think that Kotsay must have a hot streak coming at some point because of his extraordinarily low average. No one knows the answer.
I'm quite sure those who knew Kotsay would fail in a full-time role knew the answer from day one.

Of course, there were those who insisted that Mark Kotsay, in 2010, was a better hitter than Nick Swisher in 2010.

harwar
07-01-2010, 08:01 AM
So certain are you?


do or do not .. there is no try ..

asindc
07-01-2010, 08:02 AM
I haven't read through the entire thread so I acknowledge up front that I might be overlooking a point that explains this, but I wonder why the DH position is being debated in the immediate aftermath of last night's game. The middle relief was the problem last night.

harwar
07-01-2010, 08:23 AM
Pena hasn't been that bad lately,so i hope last night was an aberration .. this upcoming texas series is the one that i was worried about .. one thing is for sure our boys better have their hitting shoes on because the rangers really hit well when playing at home .. it's going to be HOT and humid down there ..

kittle42
07-01-2010, 08:28 AM
I haven't read through the entire thread so I acknowledge up front that I might be overlooking a point that explains this, but I wonder why the DH position is being debated in the immediate aftermath of last night's game. The middle relief was the problem last night.

Because there appears to be a certain segment of fans here who are quite pleased with what Kotsay and Jones bring to the table. They also believe Adam Dunn is a terrible hitter, that a team of Juan Pierres wins championships, and they are also not willing to admit that Nick Swisher is better than he was when he was here. You see, he walks too much and strikes out too much. Thus, he is terrible.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 08:30 AM
I haven't read through the entire thread so I acknowledge up front that I might be overlooking a point that explains this, but I wonder why the DH position is being debated in the immediate aftermath of last night's game. The middle relief was the problem last night.
When someone marches into a thread and proclaims "DH is not a position," it's going to result in a good deal of eye-rolling and contempt.

It's amazing that after eight years the Red Sox still can't find a spot for David Ortiz. He's just buried on that bench.

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 08:32 AM
When someone marches into a thread and proclaims "DH is not a position," it's going to result in a good deal of eye-rolling and contempt.

It's amazing that after eight years the Red Sox still can't find a spot for David Ortiz. He's just buried on that bench.

I also felt bad for Frank once he couldn't play 1st anymore. There was nothing we could do for him but let him rot on the bench. Sad, really.

SI1020
07-01-2010, 08:50 AM
Yes. During the offseason, the White Sox should have gone after a real DH like Wilson Betemit, who gave the Royals an offensive advantage this week.

DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH. Perhaps you meant it in the literal sense? The DH does not take the field so therefore it is not technically a position? In reality the AL made it a new and special part of the game in 1973. You're a resident historian here and I'm sure you remember it well. Why mess up your credibility by splitting hairs over a definition? For better or worse the DH is now a position in almost all of organized baseball outside of the NL.

russ99
07-01-2010, 08:51 AM
Because there appears to be a certain segment of fans here who are quite pleased with what Kotsay and Jones bring to the table. They also believe Adam Dunn is a terrible hitter, that a team of Juan Pierres wins championships, and they are also not willing to admit that Nick Swisher is better than he was when he was here. You see, he walks too much and strikes out too much. Thus, he is terrible.

None of us are pleased with what Kotsay/Jones have brought to the table so far. They've performed well below even the lowest expectations.

Adam Dunn isn't a terrible hitter at all but both he and Swisher (who whined his way out of town) strike out way too much and their OBPs are inflated by all the walks they take. Is there some kind of OBP per batted ball stat?

All I'm looking for is balance. Guys at the top of the order who can make contact and steal bases, a pure hitter at #3, 2-3 sluggers at 4-5-6, whoever is left at the back (good defense a plus) and a guy with some speed at 9.

Nobody wants a team of Juan Pierres, nor a team of all slow plodding 16-inch softball sluggers who hit 40 HRs, strike our 100+ and ground into tons of rally killing DPs. Something in the middle would be nice.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Adam Dunn isn't a terrible hitter at all but both he and Swisher (who whined his way out of town) strike out way too much and their OBPs are inflated by all the walks they take. Is there some kind of OBP per batted ball stat?

Yeah, it's called batting average.

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 08:55 AM
None of us are pleased with what Kotsay/Jones have brought to the table so far. They've performed well below even the lowest expectations.

Adam Dunn isn't a terrible hitter at all but both he and Swisher (who whined his way out of town) strike out way too much and their OBPs are inflated by all the walks they take. Is there some kind of OBP per batted ball stat?

All I'm looking for is balance. Guys at the top of the order who can make contact and steal bases, a pure hitter at #3, 2-3 sluggers at 4-5-6, whoever is left at the back (good defense a plus) and a guy with some speed at 9.

Nobody wants a team of Juan Pierres, nor a team of all slow plodding 16-inch softball sluggers who hit 40 HRs, strike our 100+ and ground into tons of rally killing DPs. Something in the middle would be nice.

Are you saying this as a bad thing? We need a slugger in the middle of the order. Dunn could be that slugger.

russ99
07-01-2010, 08:59 AM
Are you saying this as a bad thing? We need a slugger in the middle of the order. Dunn could be that slugger.

No, but assuming Dunn is a great player due to his OBP isn't taking in account the strikeouts and often low batting averages he puts up.

Dunn would be a very good addition to the Sox, granted we don't need to give up too much for a rental.

russ99
07-01-2010, 09:00 AM
Yeah, it's called batting average.

LOL. Looking past the obvious...

Just saying - he's put up years in the .240's and .230 not too long ago.

asindc
07-01-2010, 09:02 AM
Yeah, it's called batting average.

I think what he means is batted ball vs. strikeouts. Since strikeouts count against a BA, they would not be counted in the equation he is asking about.

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 09:03 AM
LOL. Looking past the obvious...

Just saying - he's put up years in the .240's and .230 not too long ago.

While getting on base at almost a .400 clip and hitting 40 homeruns and 100 RBIs.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 09:07 AM
I think what he means is batted ball vs. strikeouts. Since strikeouts count against a BA, they would not be counted in the equation he is asking about.

So BABIP?

I still think this argument is splitting hairs. If you're chief concern with a guy is "are the outs he's making productive?", I think you're really overthinking some things.

Tragg
07-01-2010, 09:09 AM
DH isn't a position. It's a bat off the bench. Adam Dunn has has been a DH in 18 games, and he's in his 10th season, but some people would consider him a real DH.
It is a bat in the lineup every night.
DH's are not that hard to get in the offseason...we could have had Thome again, cheap. We know why we don't.
So after going through 1/2 a season without a DH, the Sox will likely squander several prospects in a 1/2 year rent in order to make up for not signing Thome.

In the meantime, Viciedo is the best bat off the bench and should hit every night as he's much better than the incumbent DH....but we know he won't.

asindc
07-01-2010, 09:10 AM
So BABIP?

I still think this argument is splitting hairs. If you're chief concern with a guy is "are the outs he's making productive?", I think you're really overthinking some things.

BABIP + foul outs, I suppose (I assume foul outs are not considered "balls in play").

doublem23
07-01-2010, 09:14 AM
BABIP + foul outs, I suppose (I assume foul outs are not considered "balls in play").

No, foul outs are factored in BABIP. The only thing not factored in BABIP that would be in your BA are K's and HR's, those are considered "not in play" since in only the rarest of circumstances, does a fielder have a chance to make a play on them.

Here's the equation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/d/8/ed893b7b0405147c8498db6096fce17e.png

Domeshot17
07-01-2010, 09:22 AM
Didn't someone promise us we would get like a 260 average 20 homers and 70 RBI from the DH combo of Kotsay and Jones.

kufram
07-01-2010, 09:47 AM
I'm quite sure those who knew Kotsay would fail in a full-time role knew the answer from day one.

Of course, there were those who insisted that Mark Kotsay, in 2010, was a better hitter than Nick Swisher in 2010.


If they would JUST LISTEN TO YOU, eh? Everything would be SO much easier.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 09:48 AM
It is a bat in the lineup every night.
DH's are not that hard to get in the offseason...we could have had Thome again, cheap. We know why we don't.
So after going through 1/2 a season without a DH, the Sox will likely squander several prospects in a 1/2 year rent in order to make up for not signing Thome.

In the meantime, Viciedo is the best bat off the bench and should hit every night as he's much better than the incumbent DH....but we know he won't.

Excellent post. Ozzie's ridiculousness is seriously costing this team.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 09:49 AM
If they would JUST LISTEN TO YOU, eh? Everything would be SO much easier.

Can't say he's wrong on this one, though.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 09:50 AM
Here's the equation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/d/8/ed893b7b0405147c8498db6096fce17e.png

Propellerhead.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 09:54 AM
If they would JUST LISTEN TO YOU, eh? Everything would be SO much easier.

Well, life probably would be easier with a DH instead of a revolving door of crap.

kufram
07-01-2010, 09:58 AM
When someone marches into a thread and proclaims "DH is not a position," it's going to result in a good deal of eye-rolling and contempt.

It's amazing that after eight years the Red Sox still can't find a spot for David Ortiz. He's just buried on that bench.

Well, he is buried on the bench for at least half of the game. I don't feel as strongly about the DH as it may appear, actually. I can just see the argument against it. Even pitchers have to field and they are the most specialized of all the positions, arguably. The DH is a little too one dimensional and not being used as imaginatively as it might is all I would say and I could see it being used very successfully as a rotating position with the right players. Obviously, hasn't worked as well as management was hoping.... yet. We haven't reached the ASB as yet and very few moves were ever going to happen before about now. Bringing Dunn in could actually make the DH spot rotate more on this team.

markopat
07-01-2010, 10:01 AM
Last nights results sucked, but the MIke Dunn stuff was priceless...Let's get it back on track White Sox...You can do it!

Hitmen77
07-01-2010, 10:05 AM
Didn't someone promise us we would get like a 260 average 20 homers and 70 RBI from the DH combo of Kotsay and Jones.

The defenders of the Sox "don't need a DH" plan are rather silent now. Back in February, they insisted that this would work out for the Sox and, if not, we'd simply unload some prospects mid-season to land Adrian Gonzalez.

If KW now thinks the Sox do need a DH, then I'd like to see them run Viciedo out there more often to see if can fit in somehow.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 10:13 AM
The defenders of the Sox "don't need a DH" plan are rather silent now. Back in February, they insisted that this would work out for the Sox and, if not, we'd simply unload some prospects mid-season to land Adrian Gonzalez.

If KW now thinks the Sox do need a DH, then I'd like to see them run Viciedo out there more often to see if can fit in somehow.

At least they've had the common sense to bench Andruw Jones, but yes, opening the Gamethread everyday and seeing "Kotsay" in there (in the middle of the lineup, generally, to boot) is becoming tiresome.

TDog
07-01-2010, 10:22 AM
What are you talking about? The Sox are allowed to use a DH in about 150 of their games, it's very much a real position and, if you notice, generally good teams in the AL have a guy who can actually hit in that spot. You're trying to reinvent the wheel for the 9 games we're on the road in NL parks at the expense of sacrificing 150 games played under normal rules? GMAB.

The DH is a spot in the lineup. It is not a position on a baseball team. Most National League teams have players who can fill the role if they play games under National League rules. The Nationals are a last-place team National League team, and many White Sox fans want to trade with them to get a real DH.

If DH is a position, it is one that Viciedo, for example, has almost never played professionally since coming to America. To assert that the White Sox lost two out of three games to the American League Royals because American League teams have real DHs is absurd when the Royals had Betemit serving that role in the last two games.

If you consider a DH to be a position, the Cubs have plenty of DHs in Ramirez and Soriano and Colvin. For that matter, the White Sox have always had too many DHs. That's why Bobby Bonilla, who was atrocious as a minor league third baseman, ended up back with the Pirates where he had to play a position where he was considered something of an Edsel. Bonilla couldn't DH for the Sox because they already had too many DHs. This year, the White Sox have at least Teahen and Quentin who would seem to be natural DHs.

Professional baseball players I have talked with generally don't like to DH. Only players who can't play the field -- i.e. Harold Baines who was prohibited from moving laterally after knee surgeries and John Kruk who was certainly no athlete -- would consider themselves DHs. Most players who can play the field actually hit better when they are playing the field. For his career, Frank Thomas hit about 60 points higher at first than he did at DH.

You don't see teams drafting star DHs out of college. Actually, you do, but not as if DH were a real position. The White Sox drafted the NCAA's top designated hitter in 1985, and he went on to set a major league record in 1990, although he was still a few years before he would get his first major league at bat. Bobby Thigpen was the designated hitter on a Mississippi State team that had both Will Clark and Rafael Palmiero.

If Quentin were the everyday DH and Jones and Kotsay were platooning in right, people who want the Sox to have a real DH would have other things to complain about.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 10:26 AM
The DH is a spot in the lineup. It is not a position on a baseball team. Most National League teams have players who can fill the role if they play games under National League rules. The Nationals are a last-place team National League team, and many White Sox fans want to trade with them to get a real DH.

If DH is a position, it is one that Viciedo, for example, has almost never played professionally since coming to America. To assert that the White Sox lost two out of three games to the American League Royals because American League teams have real DHs is absurd when the Royals had Betemit serving that role in the last two games.

If you consider a DH to be a position, the Cubs have plenty of DHs in Ramirez and Soriano and Colvin. For that matter, the White Sox have always had too many DHs. That's why Bobby Bonilla, who was atrocious as a minor league third baseman, ended up back with the Pirates where he had to play a position where he was considered something of an Edsel. Bonilla couldn't DH for the Sox because they already had too many DHs. This year, the White Sox have at least Teahen and Quentin who would seem to be natural DHs.

Professional baseball players I have talked with generally don't like to DH. Only players who can't play the field -- i.e. Harold Baines who was prohibited from moving laterally after knee surgeries and John Kruk who was certainly no athlete -- would consider themselves DHs. Most players who can play the field actually hit better when they are playing the field. For his career, Frank Thomas hit about 60 points higher at first than he did at DH.

You don't see teams drafting star DHs out of college. Actually, you do, but not as if DH were a real position. The White Sox drafted the NCAA's top designated hitter in 1985, and he went on to set a major league record in 1990, although he was still a few years before he would get his first major league at bat. Bobby Thigpen was the designated hitter on a Mississippi State team that had both Will Clark and Rafael Palmiero.

If Quentin were the everyday DH and Jones and Kotsay were platooning in right, people who want the Sox to have a real DH would have other things to complain about.

This is literally the most absurd post I have read in the 10 years I've been a member of WSI.

Congratulations.

DirtySox
07-01-2010, 10:30 AM
If Quentin were the everyday DH and Jones and Kotsay were platooning in right, people who want the Sox to have a real DH would have other things to complain about.

Yea. We would than be complaining about the ****ty offensive production from RF. This team needs a bat, Kotsay and Jones are terrible. What the **** is there not to get?

SI1020
07-01-2010, 10:31 AM
The DH is a spot in the lineup. It is not a position on a baseball team.
A mighty important spot if your team is in the American League. Too important to trust to the likes of Mark Kotsay and a very washed up Andruw Jones. Or do you disagree with that too?

khan
07-01-2010, 10:43 AM
The DH is a spot in the lineup. It is not a position on a baseball team. Most National League teams have players who can fill the role if they play games under National League rules. The Nationals are a last-place team National League team, and many White Sox fans want to trade with them to get a real DH.
[SNIP!]


This is one of the most tortured, twisted, and poorly-justified arguments I've seen in awhile.

I'm guessing that a lot of us here don't really get what you're posting about. Are you making a geezerly want for the "good old days" of no DH and pitchers striking out 3-4 times a game? Or are you arguing semantics of "spot in the lineup" vs. "a position?"

In any case, your post was an impressive bunch of spin that didn't accomplish much, IMHO.

khan
07-01-2010, 10:55 AM
I haven't read through the entire thread so I acknowledge up front that I might be overlooking a point that explains this, but I wonder why the DH position is being debated in the immediate aftermath of last night's game. The middle relief was the problem last night.

1. I think the DH is being debated because Kotsay has sucked, and will continue to suck. Ozzie simply can't help himself when it comes to over-using such a middling MLB talent.

2. It is true that middle relief was a problem in this game, but this was evident going back to the offseason. Ozzie has been using Pena as a long guy [8 appearances of 2+ innings out of his 27 appearances] when Pena really isn't a long guy. It may be that Pena being misused may be contributory to his ineffectiveness last night.

3. The Williams debacle was also borne out of not having a 3rd LH reliever option [after Thornton and Williams], either in Chicago, or in Charlotte to START the season.

In sum, this loss was predicted months ago:

Kotsay instead of Thome;
No long man in the 'pen, coupled with an unrealistic expectation that the SPs can go 7+ innings/start;
No 3rd LHP option for the bullpen.

It will NOW cost the SOX much more [in terms of minor leaguers or money] to fix these problems in July that were evident in January.

russ99
07-01-2010, 11:28 AM
Which is Thome and which is Kotsay?

Player A
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
53 117 17 29 9 1 8 22 26 37 0.248 0.382 0.547

Player B
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
56 164 18 36 8 0 6 16 24 17 0.22 0.319 0.378

Neither is a good option. Was against Thome then and against him now.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 11:31 AM
Which is Thome and which is Kotsay?

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
Player A 53 117 17 29 9 1 8 22 26 37 0.248 0.382 0.547
Player B 56 164 18 36 8 0 6 16 24 17 0.22 0.319 0.378

Neither is a good option. Was against Thome then and against him now.

Are you serious? Do you actually think those lines look similar? 70 points of OBP, 170 of slugging? All this before you mention Kotsay plays in a power hitter's park, Thome plays in the AL's version of PETCO.

Swing and a miss, russ.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 11:39 AM
None of us are pleased with what Kotsay/Jones have brought to the table so far. They've performed well below even the lowest expectations.

Adam Dunn isn't a terrible hitter at all but both he and Swisher (who whined his way out of town) strike out way too much and their OBPs are inflated by all the walks they take. Is there some kind of OBP per batted ball stat?

All I'm looking for is balance. Guys at the top of the order who can make contact and steal bases, a pure hitter at #3, 2-3 sluggers at 4-5-6, whoever is left at the back (good defense a plus) and a guy with some speed at 9.

Nobody wants a team of Juan Pierres, nor a team of all slow plodding 16-inch softball sluggers who hit 40 HRs, strike our 100+ and ground into tons of rally killing DPs. Something in the middle would be nice.

Wait, so now walks are bad? You're the same guy who thought all these singles hitters were so awesome? :nuts:

Which is Thome and which is Kotsay?

Player A
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
53 117 17 29 9 1 8 22 26 37 0.248 0.382 0.547

Player B
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
56 164 18 36 8 0 6 16 24 17 0.22 0.319 0.378

Neither is a good option. Was against Thome then and against him now.

LMAO those numbers aren't even close! And Thome was willing to sign for cheap. Our DH is slugging .378? My God, I didn't even realize it was that pathetic.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 11:53 AM
The DH is a spot in the lineup. It is not a position on a baseball team. Most National League teams have players who can fill the role if they play games under National League rules. The Nationals are a last-place team National League team, and many White Sox fans want to trade with them to get a real DH.

If DH is a position, it is one that Viciedo, for example, has almost never played professionally since coming to America. To assert that the White Sox lost two out of three games to the American League Royals because American League teams have real DHs is absurd when the Royals had Betemit serving that role in the last two games.

If you consider a DH to be a position, the Cubs have plenty of DHs in Ramirez and Soriano and Colvin. For that matter, the White Sox have always had too many DHs. That's why Bobby Bonilla, who was atrocious as a minor league third baseman, ended up back with the Pirates where he had to play a position where he was considered something of an Edsel. Bonilla couldn't DH for the Sox because they already had too many DHs. This year, the White Sox have at least Teahen and Quentin who would seem to be natural DHs.

Professional baseball players I have talked with generally don't like to DH. Only players who can't play the field -- i.e. Harold Baines who was prohibited from moving laterally after knee surgeries and John Kruk who was certainly no athlete -- would consider themselves DHs. Most players who can play the field actually hit better when they are playing the field. For his career, Frank Thomas hit about 60 points higher at first than he did at DH.

You don't see teams drafting star DHs out of college. Actually, you do, but not as if DH were a real position. The White Sox drafted the NCAA's top designated hitter in 1985, and he went on to set a major league record in 1990, although he was still a few years before he would get his first major league at bat. Bobby Thigpen was the designated hitter on a Mississippi State team that had both Will Clark and Rafael Palmiero.

If Quentin were the everyday DH and Jones and Kotsay were platooning in right, people who want the Sox to have a real DH would have other things to complain about.

I never said that. I clearly said that against AL teams we are at a disadvantage because he don't have a real DH.

People can bend things any way they want to bend things. He need a hitter. The DH should be a good hitter. Our DH isn't a good hitter. Ergo, he need a new DH. How can people argue against this incredibly obvious point? Move Kotsay to right and Quentin to DH. Now we need a new RF. Come on people.

khan
07-01-2010, 11:56 AM
What's even MORE striking is when you look at the splits for Thome and Kotsay. Not only is Thome some 200 points higher on SLG and 300 higher on OPS vs. Righties, Thome also has gotten hits vs. lefties; Kotsay has ZERO vs. lefties.

In any case, it isn't "just" Thome vs. Kotsay, it's:

Thome, PLUS whatever the SOX WOULDN'T have to trade away to get a proper LH bat to fix the fact that Kotsay sucks as a LH bat

vs.

Kotsay.

It really isn't even close. Stupidity in the offseason begets further stupidity by this front office. This is ESPECIALLY true when you consider that the minor league system is already denuded...

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Which is Thome and which is Kotsay?

Player A
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
53 117 17 29 9 1 8 22 26 37 0.248 0.382 0.547

Player B
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
56 164 18 36 8 0 6 16 24 17 0.22 0.319 0.378

Neither is a good option. Was against Thome then and against him now.

Thome's the one with the high OBP and SLG and Kotsay's the one with the low OBP and pathetic SLG. Do I win a prize?

voodoochile
07-01-2010, 12:05 PM
No, foul outs are factored in BABIP. The only thing not factored in BABIP that would be in your BA are K's and HR's, those are considered "not in play" since in only the rarest of circumstances, does a fielder have a chance to make a play on them.

Here's the equation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/d/8/ed893b7b0405147c8498db6096fce17e.png

That's weird. I'd think HR would still be considered in play. You should definitely get credit for them though, IMO.

I mean it seems to me that the concept is to evaluate how often contact is made that has an impact on the game outcome (outs or hits). Seems a HR qualifies...

SI1020
07-01-2010, 12:05 PM
Which is Thome and which is Kotsay?

Player A
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
53 117 17 29 9 1 8 22 26 37 0.248 0.382 0.547

Player B
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
56 164 18 36 8 0 6 16 24 17 0.22 0.319 0.378

Neither is a good option. Was against Thome then and against him now. Obviously one is a much better option than the other. Am I in some kind of parallel universe today?

DirtySox
07-01-2010, 12:08 PM
Which is Thome and which is Kotsay?

Player A
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
53 117 17 29 9 1 8 22 26 37 0.248 0.382 0.547

Player B
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
56 164 18 36 8 0 6 16 24 17 0.22 0.319 0.378

Neither is a good option. Was against Thome then and against him now.

This is one of the most hilarious things I've read today. Kudos.

TomBradley72
07-01-2010, 12:14 PM
This is one of the most hilarious things I've read today. Kudos.

Thome's OPS this year is very close to his career average, he had a slow May , but hitting in the mid .280's in April and June....386 OBP...to think we could have had him at a bargain price...but chose the DH by committee over him (and let him to go to our primary rival within the division) and now might have to trade talent to replace him....

:whiner::whiner::whiner:

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2010, 12:16 PM
That's weird. I'd think HR would still be considered in play. You should definitely get credit for them though, IMO.

I mean it seems to me that the concept is to evaluate how often contact is made that has an impact on the game outcome (outs or hits). Seems a HR qualifies...

It's not really a question of getting credit or not getting credit. BABIP only includes certain outcomes of an at bat which by its definition only includes balls hit within the field of play. Example: if a player's BABIP this year is well below his career norm and you look at his line drive % and ground ball % and see that they are basically the same as they have been his whole career you could deduce that he has been "unlucky" or that while his average doesn't yet reflect it he is hitting at essentially the same level. Based on this information, you could expect his average to regress back to his career norm.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 12:17 PM
That's weird. I'd think HR would still be considered in play. You should definitely get credit for them though, IMO.

I mean it seems to me that the concept is to evaluate how often contact is made that has an impact on the game outcome (outs or hits). Seems a HR qualifies...

The idea behind BABIP is to get a rough idea of how much, or how little, effect the opposing defense has on a players' offensive stats. HR's aren't included because, outside of the very, very rare inside the park job, the defense had no effect on whether or not that was a hit. Same with Ks, if you don't put the ball in play, the defense had no say in the outcome.

Remember Alex Rios early this season? Every god damn ball he hit hard went right to someone. Sometimes that's just baseball.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 12:42 PM
That's weird. I'd think HR would still be considered in play. You should definitely get credit for them though, IMO.

I mean it seems to me that the concept is to evaluate how often contact is made that has an impact on the game outcome (outs or hits). Seems a HR qualifies...

The great thing about statistics is that you can personalize them to anything you think is a good indicator of success. If you think including HR (which I would agree with) is the right call, then you can do just that and judge players your own way. God I love baseball :D:

TDog
07-01-2010, 12:48 PM
I never said that. I clearly said that against AL teams we are at a disadvantage because he don't have a real DH.

People can bend things any way they want to bend things. He need a hitter. The DH should be a good hitter. Our DH isn't a good hitter. Ergo, he need a new DH. How can people argue against this incredibly obvious point? Move Kotsay to right and Quentin to DH. Now we need a new RF. Come on people.

I wasn't bending things at all. You were commenting that the White Sox losing two out of three against an American League team after winning 13 of 15 against National League teams demonstrated that the White Sox lack of a true DH puts them at a disadvantage against American League teams, although in two games of the Royals series the White Sox faced a DH who wasn't considered major league worthy as a hitter when he played for the White Sox last year.

Where you get your offense is irrelevant, and the White Sox had enough offense to win last night's game, despite facing an All-Star starter who was relieved by an All-Star closer.

The White Sox should be getting more production out of some players, but unless you have a pre-Toronto Frank Thomas or a 20th century Harold Baines or even Jim Thome of a couple of years ago, you shouldn't be building a team with players who can't do anything but hit.

My guess is Mark Teahen will be the most frequent DH when he returns from the DL. He strikes out a lot, about what Thome would, although he doesn't have Thome's power.

But Thome isn't the full-time DH for the Twins. The Twins (who pushed for the major leagues to adopt the DH rule to save Tony Oliva's career almost four decades ago but were unable to persuade a three-fourths majority of NL owners to adopt it for their league) consider the DH not so much a position as a bat off the bench. Thome has been the DH in 31 games and a pinch-hitter in 23.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 12:51 PM
I mean it seems to me that the concept is to evaluate how often contact is made that has an impact on the game outcome (outs or hits). Seems a HR qualifies...
No.

And Russ...good grief.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 12:52 PM
I wasn't bending things at all. You were commenting that the White Sox losing two out of three against an American League team after winning 13 of 15 against National League teams demonstrated that the White Sox lack of a true DH puts them at a disadvantage against American League teams, although in two games of the Royals series the White Sox faced a DH who wasn't considered major league worthy as a hitter when he played for the White Sox last year.

Where you get your offense is irrelevant, and the White Sox had enough offense to win last night's game, despite facing an All-Star starter who was relieved by an All-Star closer.

The White Sox should be getting more production out of some players, but unless you have a pre-Toronto Frank Thomas or a 20th century Harold Baines or even Jim Thome of a couple of years ago, you shouldn't be building a team with players who can't do anything but hit.

My guess is Mark Teahen will be the most frequent DH when he returns from the DL. He strikes out a lot, about what Thome would, although he doesn't have Thome's power.

But Thome isn't the full-time DH for the Twins. The Twins (who pushed for the major leagues to adopt the DH rule to save Tony Oliva's career almost four decades ago but were unable to persuade a three-fourths majority of NL owners to adopt it for their league) consider the DH not so much a position as a bat off the bench. Thome has been the DH in 31 games and a pinch-hitter in 23.

Unfortunately Mark Teahen can't fulfill the one thing a DH is supposed to do: hit.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 12:53 PM
Unfortunately Mark Teahen can't fulfill the one thing a DH is supposed to do: hit.

It's OK, though, because he can boot around balls at 3B or throw them up the RF line, so he's a better option than a slugger who can only be a DH.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 12:55 PM
It's OK, though, because he can boot around balls at 3B or throw them up the RF line, so he's a better option than a slugger who can only be a DH.
This is true, and he doesn't whine. Otherwise we might have to trade him for a bevy of Yankee prospects.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 01:02 PM
I wasn't bending things at all. You were commenting that the White Sox losing two out of three against an American League team after winning 13 of 15 against National League teams demonstrated that the White Sox lack of a true DH puts them at a disadvantage against American League teams, although in two games of the Royals series the White Sox faced a DH who wasn't considered major league worthy as a hitter when he played for the White Sox last year.

Where you get your offense is irrelevant, and the White Sox had enough offense to win last night's game, despite facing an All-Star starter who was relieved by an All-Star closer.

The White Sox should be getting more production out of some players, but unless you have a pre-Toronto Frank Thomas or a 20th century Harold Baines or even Jim Thome of a couple of years ago, you shouldn't be building a team with players who can't do anything but hit.

My guess is Mark Teahen will be the most frequent DH when he returns from the DL. He strikes out a lot, about what Thome would, although he doesn't have Thome's power.

But Thome isn't the full-time DH for the Twins. The Twins (who pushed for the major leagues to adopt the DH rule to save Tony Oliva's career almost four decades ago but were unable to persuade a three-fourths majority of NL owners to adopt it for their league) consider the DH not so much a position as a bat off the bench. Thome has been the DH in 31 games and a pinch-hitter in 23.

No, I was saying their lack of a DH puts them at a disadvantage vs the entire AL. It has nothing to do with any 1 or 2 games. I'm talking about 59 games as a whole, the ones where we are 25-34.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 01:30 PM
Several of you in this thread have been sufficiently "pwned," as the kids say these days.

But keep going - it's making for hysterical reading.

Also, I gotta go back and dig up the DH-by-committee, "Minnesota Thomes" supporters from the preseason. The Sox' poor decisionmaking in that department has become apparent. "pwned!"

kittle42
07-01-2010, 01:31 PM
No, I was saying their lack of a DH puts them at a disadvantage vs the entire AL. It has nothing to do with any 1 or 2 games. I'm talking about 59 games as a whole, the ones where we are 25-34.

Irrelevant, because Wilson Betemit wasn't good enough to play for the Sox last season.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Irrelevant, because Wilson Betemit wasn't good enough to play for the Sox last season.
:rolling:

Hitmen77
07-01-2010, 01:53 PM
Several of you in this thread have been sufficiently "pwned," as the kids say these days.

But keep going - it's making for hysterical reading.

Also, I gotta go back and dig up the DH-by-committee, "Minnesota Thomes" supporters from the preseason. The Sox' poor decisionmaking in that department has become apparent. "pwned!"

+1.

The twisted logic here in a desperate attempt to defend the DH-by-committee idea makes for hysterical reading.

This idea sounded obviously bad when the Sox mentioned it in January and it's completely living up to the mess it promised. But, according to some people, since the Sox have other weaknesses, this proves that it doesn't matter that they basically passed on a huge offensive spot in the lineup.

russ99
07-01-2010, 02:03 PM
Are you serious? Do you actually think those lines look similar? 70 points of OBP, 170 of slugging? All this before you mention Kotsay plays in a power hitter's park, Thome plays in the AL's version of PETCO.

Swing and a miss, russ.

Never heard about this bizarro version of baseball where slugging percentage and on-base percentage wins baseball games.

Hits, runs, and to a lesser extent homers wins ballgames and both players numbers are very similar and very deficient.

Better yet, had Thome re-signed and put up those numbers for the Sox, would any of you not be calling for him to sit and/or retire?

Hitmen77
07-01-2010, 02:08 PM
Unfortunately Mark Teahen can't fulfill the one thing a DH is supposed to do: hit.

I agree with what you're saying, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the Sox "answer" to our need for another bat.

....maybe not Teahen alone, but in combination with Viciedo and, yes, Kotsay. We don't know if Viciedo can fill this void, but we won't find out with him sitting on the bench most games either.

I'm not saying I like this approach, but giving the lack of talent in our farm system, it might either be this or acquiring a less-than-impressive bat (I think we can forget about Dunn).

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 02:08 PM
Never heard about this bizarro version of baseball where slugging percentage and on-base percentage wins baseball games.

Hits, runs, and to a lesser extent homers wins ballgames and both players numbers are very similar and very deficient.

Better yet, had Thome re-signed and put up those numbers for the Sox, would any of you not be calling for him to sit and/or retire?

bahahahahahaha

This is the greatest thread in the history of the interwebs! Yesterday, someone said the more they back themselves into a corner, the more ridiculous their comments become. That poster was dead on.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 02:20 PM
Never heard about this bizarro version of baseball where slugging percentage and on-base percentage wins baseball games.

Hits, runs, and to a lesser extent homers wins ballgames and both players numbers are very similar and very deficient.

The next time a Sox player walks, I am going to boo the hell out of them. "Win baseball games!" I will shout. Teach them to not have to swing the bat to get on base, those base-clogging bastards.

SI1020
07-01-2010, 02:33 PM
But Thome isn't the full-time DH for the Twins. The Twins (who pushed for the major leagues to adopt the DH rule to save Tony Oliva's career almost four decades ago but were unable to persuade a three-fourths majority of NL owners to adopt it for their league) consider the DH not so much a position as a bat off the bench. Thome has been the DH in 31 games and a pinch-hitter in 23. I've already praised your historical knowledge but the idea of the designated hitter has a lot longer history than just Tony Oliva. Connie Mack first proposed it in 1906 as he tired of his pitchers futile attempts at hitting a baseball. NL President John Heydler came close to introducing the DH to NL teams in the late 1920's. By the late 1960's pitching had become so dominant that Carl Yastrzemski won a batting title in 1968 with a .301 average. That same year Bob Gibson hurled 13 shutouts and had an unbelievable 1.12 ERA, and Denny McClain won 31 games for the Tigers. Baseball in general and the AL in particular had become concerned about the lack of offense, going 1-19 against the NL in All Star games between 1963-82. The mound was lowered in 1969, which helped a little. They had an instigator among their owners in Charles O. Finley who pushed for a number of changes in the game. It is also true that between 1958 when the Colts won the epic overtime game against the Giants and January of 1967 when the Packers defeated the Chiefs in the first Super Bowl football supplanted baseball as the nation's favorite pastime. So baseball in general and the AL in particular had lots of reasons and a long historical push resulting in the adoption of the DH in 1973. The DH was adopted by a vote of 8-4 by the AL. I have been unable as yet to determine which clubs voted up or down.

SI1020
07-01-2010, 02:36 PM
Never heard about this bizarro version of baseball where slugging percentage and on-base percentage wins baseball games.

Hits, runs, and to a lesser extent homers wins ballgames and both players numbers are very similar and very deficient.

Better yet, had Thome re-signed and put up those numbers for the Sox, would any of you not be calling for him to sit and/or retire? Oh good grief this one tops them all. This is the definite winner of the thread.

Domeshot17
07-01-2010, 02:50 PM
Never heard about this bizarro version of baseball where slugging percentage and on-base percentage wins baseball games.

Hits, runs, and to a lesser extent homers wins ballgames and both players numbers are very similar and very deficient.

Better yet, had Thome re-signed and put up those numbers for the Sox, would any of you not be calling for him to sit and/or retire?


All I can think of right now is those Budweiser Real Men of Genuis commercials. Like, I literally read this thread, and just heard "Reaaalll Mennn of Gennnuuiiissssss"

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 02:50 PM
Never heard about this bizarro version of baseball where slugging percentage and on-base percentage wins baseball games.

Hits, runs, and to a lesser extent homers wins ballgames and both players numbers are very similar and very deficient.

Better yet, had Thome re-signed and put up those numbers for the Sox, would any of you not be calling for him to sit and/or retire?

I've never actually spit out what I was drinking and laughed until I read this.

TomBradley72
07-01-2010, 03:21 PM
Better yet, had Thome re-signed and put up those numbers for the Sox, would any of you not be calling for him to sit and/or retire?

He's hitting right around his career OPS...and for Thome, whose value is in his ability to get on base/draw walks + hit for power, is a good measurement of how he's doing.

He's not a perfect DH...but for the salary he's getting + how much Kotsay completely sucks (if he was hitting like he did last summer for us, different story)...we'd be in much better shape.

Among American League DH's:

OBP- Thome-tied for #3, a few points behind the leaders, Kotsay: #13 (between Blalock & Howell)
Slugging Pct.: Thome- #3, Kotsay- #13 (between Damon & Cust)
OPS: Thome- #3 (.001 behind Ortiz), Kotsay- #12
RBI's- Thome at 22 in 117 AB's vs. Kotsay who has 16 in 164 AB's as a DH
GDP- Kotsay 8, Thome 4 despite the difference in AB's
RISP- Thome only .235, but Mr. Kotsay? .146!! Exactly .003 ahead of Ken Griffey, Jr.

Overall? Too close to call.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 03:49 PM
The next time a Sox player walks, I am going to boo the hell out of them. "Win baseball games!" I will shout. Teach them to not have to swing the bat to get on base, those base-clogging bastards.

Next time someone hits a double with the bases empty, I will boo the **** out of them. What kind of a selfish prick pads his slugging and on-base percentages when there's nobody on base to drive in? RBI'S WIN BASEBALL GAMES, NOT SLUGGING PERCENTAGE!

ChiSoxGirl
07-01-2010, 03:56 PM
Calm down everyone. We indeed should be more upset about losing on Monday to another soft thrower.

Take a day to collect your thoughts and come back here on Friday.

This... a thousand times over! Chill out, people. As long as the Sox stay within a reasonable number of games from first place, I think Kenny will pull the trigger and get a bat.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 03:57 PM
This... a thousand times over! Chill out, people. As long as the Sox stay within a reasonable number of games from first place, I think Kenny will pull the trigger and get a bat.
It's just that simple!

Hitmen77
07-01-2010, 03:58 PM
He's hitting right around his career OPS...and for Thome, whose value is in his ability to get on base/draw walks + hit for power, is a good measurement of how he's doing.

He's not a perfect DH...but for the salary he's getting + how much Kotsay completely sucks (if he was hitting like he did last summer for us, different story)...we'd be in much better shape.

Among American League DH's:

OBP- Thome-tied for #3, a few points behind the leaders, Kotsay: #13 (between Blalock & Howell)
Slugging Pct.: Thome- #3, Kotsay- #13 (between Damon & Cust)
OPS: Thome- #3 (.001 behind Ortiz), Kotsay- #12
RBI's- Thome at 22 in 117 AB's vs. Kotsay who has 16 in 164 AB's as a DH
GDP- Kotsay 8, Thome 4 despite the difference in AB's
RISP- Thome only .235, but Mr. Kotsay? .146!! Exactly .003 ahead of Ken Griffey, Jr.

Overall? Too close to call.

Wow. Thanks, Ozzie!

Paulwny
07-01-2010, 04:00 PM
This... a thousand times over! Chill out, people. As long as the Sox stay within a reasonable number of games from first place, I think Kenny will pull the trigger and get a bat.

I doubt the Twins and Tigers will stand pat. They'll also be looking to improve their chances.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 04:01 PM
It's just that simple!

Besides, games don't really count until late August, anyway!

DirtySox
07-01-2010, 04:02 PM
This thread is becoming one of my all-time favorites.

russ99
07-01-2010, 04:15 PM
He's hitting right around his career OPS...and for Thome, whose value is in his ability to get on base/draw walks + hit for power, is a good measurement of how he's doing.

He's not a perfect DH...but for the salary he's getting + how much Kotsay completely sucks (if he was hitting like he did last summer for us, different story)...we'd be in much better shape.

Among American League DH's:

OBP- Thome-tied for #3, a few points behind the leaders, Kotsay: #13 (between Blalock & Howell)
Slugging Pct.: Thome- #3, Kotsay- #13 (between Damon & Cust)
OPS: Thome- #3 (.001 behind Ortiz), Kotsay- #12
RBI's- Thome at 22 in 117 AB's vs. Kotsay who has 16 in 164 AB's as a DH
GDP- Kotsay 8, Thome 4 despite the difference in AB's
RISP- Thome only .235, but Mr. Kotsay? .146!! Exactly .003 ahead of Ken Griffey, Jr.

Overall? Too close to call.

Funny that you're pushing Thome's ability to get on base as how he's a legitimate option, considering it takes 3 hits for him to score.

All the other numbers are close enough. Again, Thome isn't a vast improvement on Kotsay who has more runs, more hits and less strikeouts. But hey, keep pushing that ridiculous OPS statistic.

BTW - By no means am I advocating Kotsay, we need to get him back on the bench. My point is keeping Thome would have had made little difference.

My annoyance is people thinking Thome's the same player he was at 25, or even 3 years ago.

khan
07-01-2010, 04:19 PM
Wow. This is reaching munch's "bust of epic proportions" level.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Funny that you're pushing Thome's ability to get on base as how he's a legitimate option, considering it takes 3 hits for him to score.

All the other numbers are close enough. Again, Thome isn't a vast improvement on Kotsay who has more runs, more hits and less strikeouts. But hey, keep pushing that ridiculous OPS statistic.

BTW - By no means am I advocating Kotsay, we need to get him back on the bench. My point is keeping Thome would have had made little difference.

My annoyance is people thinking Thome's the same player he was at 25, or even 3 years ago.
And how many does it take for Kotsay to score? 2.5. He's not swift.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 04:28 PM
Funny that you're pushing Thome's ability to get on base as how he's a legitimate option, considering it takes 3 hits for him to score.

All the other numbers are close enough. Again, Thome isn't a vast improvement on Kotsay who has more runs, more hits and less strikeouts. But hey, keep pushing that ridiculous OPS statistic.

BTW - By no means am I advocating Kotsay, we need to get him back on the bench. My point is keeping Thome would have had made little difference.

My annoyance is people thinking Thome's the same player he was at 25, or even 3 years ago.

Baseclogging! Welcome to WSI, Dusty Baker!

No one thinks Thome is what he was. But there's no question that right now, he's better than Kotsay. Like, much better.

I mean, seriously, I do not pretend like I know much, if anything, about baseball, but your statistical comparison of the two for this season is just really, really poor argument. He has more runs and hits??? He has 44 more plate appearances! Of course he does!

By the way, here is a list of some of the worst players ever to play baseball because they are the all-time strikeout leaders:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SO_career.shtml

Oh, and here are the career OPS leaders, showing how ridiculous that stat is:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/onbase_plus_slugging_career.shtml

Yup. Pointless stat. None of those guys is, I don't know, IN THE ****ING HALL OF FAME or anything.

Keep digging that hole, though.

EDIT: Oh, and here are some basecloggers:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/BB_career.shtml

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 04:44 PM
Russ, you seriously just need to hand over the shovel and take the 4th of July off. Where do you come up with this stuff? OPS doesn't matter?

russ99
07-01-2010, 04:50 PM
Russ, you seriously just need to hand over the shovel and take the 4th of July off. Where do you come up with this stuff? OPS doesn't matter?

Didn't say it doesn't matter, but it's a poor comparison stat as it weighs home runs more highly than any other result, so power hitters have a built-in advantage.

Thome's OPS is higher than Kotsay's only because he's hit more home runs in less at-bats and walked a few more times. But their other numbers are remarkably identical, and yes Thome's had less at-bats.

But I'm taking time off anyway. Heaven forbid I dismiss a sacred cow around here. Truth is that Thome's 39 years old and in steep decline, and none of these stats disprove that.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 04:50 PM
Russ, you seriously just need to hand over the shovel and take the 4th of July off. Where do you come up with this stuff? OPS doesn't matter?
First, OPS didn't matter for leadoff hitters. Then it didn't matter for some hitters, if their skills resided in other departments. Now, it doesn't matter for the designated hitter.

Truly amazing.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 04:54 PM
Didn't say it doesn't matter, but it's a poor comparison stat as it weighs home runs more highly than any other result, so power hitters have a built-in advantage.

Thome's OPS is higher than Kotsay's only because he's hit more home runs in less at-bats and walked a few more times. But their other numbers are remarkably identical, and yes Thome's had less at-bats.

But I'm taking time off anyway. Heaven forbid I dismiss a sacred cow around here. Truth is that Thome's 39 years old and in steep decline, and none of these stats disprove that.
That seems like the object of baseball. It's also higher due in part to his higher batting average. He's hitting more line-drives than Kotsay, hitting fewer ground balls, and, shockingly, his disadvantage in ability to make contact is made up in his ability to make good contact -- something Kotsay does not do.

Edit: also, power hitters have a built-in advantage at baseball, doesn't mean we should disregard the game itself.

russ99
07-01-2010, 04:56 PM
First, OPS didn't matter for leadoff hitters. Then it didn't matter for some hitters, if their skills resided in other departments. Now, it doesn't matter for the designated hitter.

Truly amazing.

Show me one hitter who has a high OPS without a lot of home runs...

OPS uses total bases. 1 for a single, 4 for a home run. A guy needs to hit 4 singles to equal 1 homer in this system.

A guy who hits 10 HRs and 20 doubles has a much lower OPS than a guy who hits 20HRs and 10 doubles unless he gets on base vastly more.

Also, guys with high on-base percentages are around .350 to .400. Guys with high slugging are .450-.600 there's a built-in disadvantage there too.

It's totally stilted in favor of home run hitters, so it's the favorite of those who love power hitters. There's other types of hitters in the league too...

Also, please don't misrepresent my quotes as supporting Kotsay as DH. That's not the point here.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 04:57 PM
Show me one hitter who has a high OPS without a lot of home runs...

OPS uses total bases. 1 for a single, 4 for a home run. A guy needs to hit 4 singles to equal 1 homer in this system.

A guy who hits 10 HRs and 20 doubles has a much lower OPS than a guy who hits 20HRs and 10 doubles unless he gets on base vastly more.

It's totally stilted in favor of home run hitters, so it's the favorite of those who love power hitters. There's other types of hitters in the league too...

So you'd rather a guy who gets 10 homers and 20 doubles? :scratch:

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 05:00 PM
Show me one hitter who has a high OPS without a lot of home runs...

OPS uses total bases. 1 for a single, 4 for a home run. A guy needs to hit 4 singles to equal 1 homer in this system.

A guy who hits 10 HRs and 20 doubles has a much lower OPS than a guy who hits 20HRs and 10 doubles unless he gets on base vastly more.

It's totally stilted in favor of home run hitters, so it's the favorite of those who love power hitters. There's other types of hitters in the league too...
Christ. Then use batting average, or OBP, or SLG. OPS (or slugging) evaluate on the basis of total bases since home runs (you should probably sit down for this) are worth more than triples. Triples are worth more than doubles. Doubles are worth more than singles. Singles, of course, are worth more than walks, and walks are worth more than outs.

And of course the guy with 10 HR/20 2B is worth less than 20/10. In a vacuum, the latter is worth more. But that's why we have OBP, and defense, and a million other forms of evaluation. Of course, the DH's ability to field is irrelevant unless you're Ozzie.

Also, on your last point: we're comparing overall hitting ability. What has Mark Kotsay done this year better than Jim Thome?

Further, being "stilted in favor of home run hitters" isn't really a thing, is it? Can we not compare Billy Butler to Albert Pujols because the latter's home run-hitting ability far outstrips the former's?

Edit: about one of your edits -- then don't use OPS if you think it's titled towards slugging. Look at them individually. It's not as though Kotsay is getting on base more than Thome and Thome is merely outslugging him. He's killing Kotsay in every respect.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 05:06 PM
Absolutely no one is saying, or has ever said, that OPS is the end-all be-all and can singularly explain a player's value. That's idiotic. What's been demonstrated by the use of OPS in a comparison of Kotsay and Thome is the offensive gulf between the two.

Frater Perdurabo
07-01-2010, 05:21 PM
If Ozzie were really concerned about defense - as he often professes to be - he would have Kotsay and Jones play right field more often and have Quentin DH more.

If Kotsay and Jones played more in RF, and if Quentin DH'd more, the Sox would have a better defense, but they still would lack a solid LH bat.

Rotating your DH makes sense when you have more good hitters than positions to field them.

The Sox don't have more good hitters than positions. They have more positions to field than good hitters.

Jones once was a great hitter. He's not anymore. Kotsay was never more than a mediocre hitter.

The only people who don't understand this are those who can't see beyond their Ozz-pologist blinders.

TomBradley72
07-01-2010, 07:00 PM
It's totally stilted in favor of home run hitters, so it's the favorite of those who love power hitters. There's other types of hitters in the league too...

Also, please don't misrepresent my quotes as supporting Kotsay as DH. That's not the point here.

Well.....when it comes to the DH role in the American League....I'm pretty sure a pwer hitter is what most teams have in mind since that's usually where you have to start sacrificing defense to get power into your line up.

I'm not defending a "sacred cow" in Thome...but for his 2010 salary we'd be much better off with him as our DH than our current alternatives and we wouldn't have to be looking at trading prospects to make up for the gap.

He's still slow, getting older and only hitting in the .240's right now overall....just better than our "DH by Committee" which has hit:

.223-6-29 with a .296 OBP this year. I know you hate OPS, but the DH position has yielded a .675 OPS this year, which is lower than EVERY other position other than LF (Pierre) and 2nd base (Beckham). That's a HUGE missed opportunity when you cannot get offense out of a position where defense plays no factor.

kittle42
07-01-2010, 07:29 PM
I'm not defending a "sacred cow" in Thome...but for his 2010 salary we'd be much better off with him as our DH than our current alternatives and we wouldn't have to be looking at trading prospects to make up for the gap.

He's still slow, getting older and only hitting in the .240's right now overall....just better than our "DH by Committee" which has hit:

.223-6-29 with a .296 OBP this year. I know you hate OPS, but the DH position has yielded a .675 OPS this year, which is lower than EVERY other position other than LF (Pierre) and 2nd base (Beckham). That's a HUGE missed opportunity when you cannot get offense out of a position where defense plays no factor.

Thank you!!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is what we are arguing about with you, russ, and others here. It's not that Thome is so great, it's that keeping him and DHing him 80%+ of the games would have been MUCH better for this team than the rotating DH monster we have.

Would we still be talking about improving the DH spot had Thome stayed on? Very possibly, but the need would not have been quite as glaring.