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Crede24Thome25
06-29-2010, 01:54 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2443158,CST-SPT-sox29.article

Knowing Kenny carries a list around of left handed batters just gives me goosebumps. Looks like a move can be made within 1-2 weeks, I hope.

Garland_IS_God
06-29-2010, 06:22 AM
Only problem with Dunn is he strikes out way way WAY to much!

dickallen15
06-29-2010, 07:09 AM
Only problem with Dunn is he strikes out way way WAY to much!

Not to mention he'd take ABs away from Kotsay and Jones.

soltrain21
06-29-2010, 07:18 AM
Only problem with Dunn is he strikes out way way WAY to much!

What is the difference between a strike out and a weak pop out to the second baseman?

Hitmen77
06-29-2010, 07:52 AM
Not to mention he'd take ABs away from Kotsay and Jones.

:kneeslap:

doublem23
06-29-2010, 08:05 AM
What is the difference between a strike out and a weak pop out to the second baseman?

Popping out to the 2B is indicative of one's grindiness.

GAsoxfan
06-29-2010, 08:06 AM
Only problem with Dunn is he strikes out way way WAY to much!

I'll take the strikeouts if they come with a career .904 OPS.

How about a package deal for Dunn and Guzman? That would fill the two biggest offensive holes on the team.

asindc
06-29-2010, 08:16 AM
This has been mentioned at least 83 times in the past six months here on this board, but it bear repeating: Dunn does not want to DH, yet he plays 1B and OF like a DH.

doublem23
06-29-2010, 08:20 AM
This has been mentioned at least 83 times in the past six months here on this board, but it bear repeating: Dunn does not want to DH, yet he plays 1B and OF like a DH.

And in May 2009, Jake Peavy didn't want to come to the Sox, either. If Dunn is that committed to playing the field, then he won't sign a long-term deal with an American League team when his contract expires after this year, but as the Nationals slip further and further out of contention, I'm going to go out on a limb and say Adam might put up with having to DH for a few months for a real chance to play in October. And if he's really doesn't want to DH, then **** him, he can go butcher 1B and lose in Washington.

Hitmen77
06-29-2010, 08:27 AM
This has been mentioned at least 83 times in the past six months here on this board, but it bear repeating: Dunn does not want to DH, yet he plays 1B and OF like a DH.

He wouldn't be a full time DH anyway since Ozzie has professed that he wants to rotate his defensive players through the DH position to give them a break.

He strikes out a lot, but I'll take what he brings over what we have now (Kotsay and Jones). The big question is how much do we have to give up to acquire him. Do we even have enough pieces to outbid other interested teams?

pythons007
06-29-2010, 08:38 AM
Trade everyone for him. haha, I'm kidding. But I find it histerical that people on here find whats wrong but don't look for what a player brings to the team. For example, Pierre has a low OBP but is leadin MLB in stolen bases and can score from 1B on gappers. Dunn strikeouts a ton, but no one brings up that he has hit 40 homers and scored and driven in 100 runs for a stretch of 4 of 5 years. He's guarenteed to hit 40 and drive in 100. His average is up quite a bit this year with his usual .400 OBP.

But yeah I don't want him because he strikeouts out too much. Even though our current DHs love to pop up to the infield with less than 2 outs and runners in scoring position.

Dunn>>>>>>>>Jones + Kotsay!!!

soltrain21
06-29-2010, 08:39 AM
Just get me Prince Fielder. I'd give up a ton for him as long as he is signing an extension.

october23sp
06-29-2010, 09:05 AM
Kenny get your Dunn.

pythons007
06-29-2010, 09:11 AM
Just get me Prince Fielder. I'd give up a ton for him as long as he is signing an extension.

There is nothing guarenteed he'd sign an extension.

soltrain21
06-29-2010, 09:16 AM
There is nothing guarenteed he'd sign an extension.

Do the 72 hour window thing.

Domeshot17
06-29-2010, 09:20 AM
His Agent is Scott Boras (Prince), The window would close in 72 seconds, not 72 hours.

Hitmen77
06-29-2010, 09:28 AM
There is nothing guarenteed he'd sign an extension.

Do the 72 hour window thing.

I have my doubts that the Sox have the payroll space to pay for signing Fielder.

If Konerko and AJ leave after this year, that's $18 million off our books, but a good chunk of that might go to raises for the rest of our guys:

Peavy gets a $1 million raise, Rios a $2.25 mil raise, $2 mil for Pierre, $1.5 million for Teahen + Linebrink, $2.25 mil for Floyd plus hefty raises due for Danks and Quentin. That right there might eat up a good amount of the money freed up if we let PK and AJ walk.

Carolina Kenny
06-29-2010, 10:01 AM
I think that Kenny will make a move.

I also think it will be a move that no one will expect, which means it won't be Dunn until the the move is finished being Dunn.

Which at that point we will be Dunn with this subject.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-29-2010, 10:16 AM
Ah, Dunn punns never get old :redneck

Yes, Dunn is a strikeout machine, but he also walks a ton too. If they got him, I could envision a lineup as such:

Pierre
Rios
Dunn
Konerko
Quentin
Ramirez
Vizquel/Teahen
Pierzynski
Beckham

I'd go to war with that.

Boondock Saint
06-29-2010, 10:30 AM
Ah, Dunn punns never get old :redneck

Yes, Dunn is a strikeout machine, but he also walks a ton too. If they got him, I could envision a lineup as such:

Pierre
Rios
Dunn
Konerko
Quentin
Ramirez
Vizquel/Teahen
Pierzynski
Beckham

I'd go to war with that.

No...you don't minimize Rios' ability like that. You keep him in the 3 hole, and have Dunn and Konerko follow him up. Pierre-Vizquel-Rios-Dunn-Konerko-TCQ is one hell of a nice 1-6.

sox1970
06-29-2010, 10:35 AM
Pierre, Pierzynski, Rios, Dunn, Konerko, Quentin, Ramirez, Teahen, Beckham

Vizquel plays 3 times a week, and you can do whatever with him.

rowand33
06-29-2010, 11:00 AM
What do we give up for him? Hudson and what else?

I like the concept of getting Guzman as well.

sox1970
06-29-2010, 11:07 AM
What do we give up for him? Hudson and what else?

I like the concept of getting Guzman as well.

I hope they can do the deal without Hudson. Maybe for a rent-a player like Dunn, it won't take Hudson.

LoveYourSuit
06-29-2010, 11:22 AM
I sure hope this is true, man we badly need real DH to plug in right now.

Getting Dunn would be pie to Ozzie's face and his whole stand on not wanting Thome back.

The Sox would have brought back Thome, we would not be in this situation. Not saying Thome is as good as Dunn right now, but for the sake of money and prospects, I think he would be more than enough. Thome has a .927 OPS right now in limited play.

Tragg
06-29-2010, 11:51 AM
He's a rent and all I ask is that we pay a rental's price...which is NOT one of our top prospects. And especially for non-elite Dunn.

And let''s remember- when the idea of us trading Konerko was brought up, the idea that we would get anything other than salary relief was universally lampooned.

What the Sox really need is the same thing we needed last year: an athletic right fielder.

ComiskeyBrewer
06-29-2010, 11:51 AM
His Agent is Scott Boras (Prince), The window would close in 72 seconds, not 72 hours.

Beat me to it. Boras never lets his clients sign extentions, if there is any chance he can get a penny more money on the FA Market.

TheOldRoman
06-29-2010, 12:12 PM
Beat me to it. Boras never lets his clients sign extentions, if there is any chance he can get a penny more money on the FA Market.Oh, he would let them sign an extension, but it wouldn't be a reasonable one. He kept telling the Rangers with Teixiera that they would either sign a 10 year deal or one buying out his arbitration years. So, yes, Borass will offer the Sox a "deal" for Prince at 8yr/$200 mil, and be happy to wait for free agency when they pass.

Domeshot17
06-29-2010, 12:14 PM
He's a rent and all I ask is that we pay a rental's price...which is NOT one of our top prospects. And especially for non-elite Dunn.

And let''s remember- when the idea of us trading Konerko was brought up, the idea that we would get anything other than salary relief was universally lampooned.

What the Sox really need is the same thing we needed last year: an athletic right fielder.

Done is a Type A free agent, which means he comes with 2 top draft picks. If he is willing to resign, I would surely give up a top spec for him.

An Athletic RF doesn't always equal runs, and thats what we lack. We need a left handed force in the middle of the lineup who is going to drive in runs. We needed it in December and we need it now.

Crede24Thome25
06-29-2010, 12:19 PM
I'll take the strikeouts if they come with a career .904 OPS.

How about a package deal for Dunn and Guzman? That would fill the two biggest offensive holes on the team.

What do we give up for him? Hudson and what else?

I like the concept of getting Guzman as well.

That would be a hell of a deal, what positions can Guzman play and where would you guys hope to put him?

balke
06-29-2010, 12:23 PM
Trade everyone for him. haha, I'm kidding. But I find it histerical that people on here find whats wrong but don't look for what a player brings to the team. For example, Pierre has a low OBP but is leadin MLB in stolen bases and can score from 1B on gappers. Dunn strikeouts a ton, but no one brings up that he has hit 40 homers and scored and driven in 100 runs for a stretch of 4 of 5 years. He's guarenteed to hit 40 and drive in 100. His average is up quite a bit this year with his usual .400 OBP.

But yeah I don't want him because he strikeouts out too much. Even though our current DHs love to pop up to the infield with less than 2 outs and runners in scoring position.

Dunn>>>>>>>>Jones + Kotsay!!!





He's also hit .250 for his career in the NL with averages of .235 and .221 in August and September.

His September/Oct SLG% is .418 and his OPS is .772.

Doesn't sound like a second half catapult to me.

You could get the same production out of Jim Thome. If the Sox want to get Dunn... fine. I don't want to see them bid on Dunn and lose Hudson. The Angels are competing for him supposedly. If the Angels want to give up good talent for a rental - I say let them. There are other options for the Sox.

Dibbs
06-29-2010, 12:33 PM
Pierre, Pierzynski, Rios, Dunn, Konerko, Quentin, Ramirez, Teahen, Beckham

Vizquel plays 3 times a week, and you can do whatever with him.

Man, that looks nice. More importantly, it looks like a lineup that can compete. I would change it slightly and go:

Pierre
Ramirez
Rios
Dunn
Konerko
Quentin
Pierzynski
Beckham
Teahen

Marqhead
06-29-2010, 12:37 PM
Ozzie would still find a way to work Kotsay into the starting lineup.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 12:40 PM
Ozzie would still find a way to work Kotsay into the starting lineup.
The similarities between Erstad and Kotsay are astounding.

GoSox2K3
06-29-2010, 12:48 PM
He's a rent and all I ask is that we pay a rental's price...which is NOT one of our top prospects. And especially for non-elite Dunn.

And let''s remember- when the idea of us trading Konerko was brought up, the idea that we would get anything other than salary relief was universally lampooned.

What the Sox really need is the same thing we needed last year: an athletic right fielder.

Done is a Type A free agent, which means he comes with 2 top draft picks. If he is willing to resign, I would surely give up a top spec for him.

An Athletic RF doesn't always equal runs, and thats what we lack. We need a left handed force in the middle of the lineup who is going to drive in runs. We needed it in December and we need it now.

Isn't Konerko also a Type A FA?

GAsoxfan
06-29-2010, 12:49 PM
That would be a hell of a deal, what positions can Guzman play and where would you guys hope to put him?

He's been a SS in the past, but he's played mostly 2B this season. I'd put him at 2B and send Beckham to Charlotte. I wouldn't give up a lot for Guzman b/c his OBP isn't great, but if he's part of a Dunn deal, I'd throw in a little extra for him. Plus, he's a free agent after this year, so there's no long-term block for Beckham.

Sargeant79
06-29-2010, 12:51 PM
I'd love to see Dunn here, but I wouldn't want to see Hudson go away in a deal unless we were able to sign Dunn to an extension. Hopefully, Kenny sees it that way too.

asindc
06-29-2010, 12:53 PM
He's been a SS in the past, but he's played mostly 2B this season. I'd put him at 2B and send Beckham to Charlotte. I wouldn't give up a lot for Guzman b/c his OBP isn't great, but if he's part of a Dunn deal, I'd throw in a little extra for him. Plus, he's a free agent after this year, so there's no long-term block for Beckham.

Word of caution about Guzman: He has picked up his offensive game in recent years and would help in that regard, but he has also been a butcher at 2B this year, so much so that the Nats occasionally play him in the OF just to get his bat in the lineup and keep him away from the IF. He has managed to muck up several plays in the OF as well, so it's a risk either way unless you have him DH.

Zisk77
06-29-2010, 01:10 PM
What is the difference between a strike out and a weak pop out to the second baseman?

About 90 feet, but I was told there would be no math on this quiz.:redneck

Zisk77
06-29-2010, 01:21 PM
I in no way would give up Hudson for Dunn. If I give up Huson, I'd give up flowers and others and get an Adrian Gonzalez type player.

KMcMahon817
06-29-2010, 01:26 PM
I sure hope this is true, man we badly need real DH to plug in right now.

Getting Dunn would be pie to Ozzie's face and his whole stand on not wanting Thome back.

The Sox would have brought back Thome, we would not be in this situation. Not saying Thome is as good as Dunn right now, but for the sake of money and prospects, I think he would be more than enough. Thome has a .927 OPS right now in limited play.

In extremely limited play. If you actually think Thome and Dunn are comparable at this phase of their career, you're mistaken.

balke
06-29-2010, 01:31 PM
In extremely limited play. If you actually think Thome and Dunn are comparable at this phase of their career, you're mistaken.

.212 .322 .333 .655

That's Dunn's Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS last September/October.

This organization will be the ones with pie in their face if they give up a Hudson type prospect for a DH who can't hit in the fall.

KMcMahon817
06-29-2010, 01:45 PM
.212 .322 .333 .655

That's Dunn's Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS last September/October.

This organization will be the ones with pie in their face if they give up a Hudson type prospect for a DH who can't hit in the fall.

Talk about selective stat checking. Jeez. Not even worth a response.

Try .276/ .366/ .559/ .925. All while hitting 17 homers and driving in 47 on the Nats THIS year!!!

THIS YEAR!!

I don't think the Sox should give up Hudson, but pulling out one month of Dunn's season last year is stupid. Do the same thing with Rios, and you probably wouldn't want him on your team either, would you?

balke
06-29-2010, 02:05 PM
Talk about selective stat checking. Jeez. Not even worth a response.

Try .276/ .366/ .559/ .925. All while hitting 17 homers and driving in 47 on the Nats THIS year!!!

THIS YEAR!!

I don't think the Sox should give up Hudson, but pulling out one month of Dunn's season last year is stupid. Do the same thing with Rios, and you probably wouldn't want him on your team either, would you?


I already posted his career #s. They aren't anymore flattering.

.221 .353 .418 .772

Pablo_Honey
06-29-2010, 02:25 PM
.212 .322 .333 .655

That's Dunn's Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS last September/October.

This organization will be the ones with pie in their face if they give up a Hudson type prospect for a DH who can't hit in the fall.
Wow, he sure is garbage. Baseball games are only played in September and October, right?

You can't just conclude he sucks in the fall because maybe it's just a coincidence he happened to struggle in the fall. It is entirely possible he is a mental midget thus struggles to perform under pressure, BUT it is not feasible to draw casual relationships based on correlational data.

Dunn would be a HUGE upgrade over whatever we are throwing out there at DH. Offense seems to be our only problem at the moment now that our pitching has seemingly settled down a bit. If we want to make a serious run at it, I'd say trade even Hudson for Dunn.

russ99
06-29-2010, 02:29 PM
Dunn's numbers in Sept/Oct while playing for long-eliminated teams have little bearing on how he'd perform in a pennant race.

I'd love to see Dunn here without giving up Hudson. I wonder if Flowers and Torres would get it done...

balke
06-29-2010, 02:34 PM
Dunn's numbers in Sept/Oct while playing for long-eliminated teams have little bearing on how he'd perform in a pennant race.

I'd love to see Dunn here without giving up Hudson. I wonder if Flowers and Torres would get it done...


That doesn't concern you? Not exactly the kind of guy you want on your team come Sept/Oct if he dogs it when he loses hope. I don't think him being the face/offensive threat of losing organizations is a coincidence.

balke
06-29-2010, 02:36 PM
Wow, he sure is garbage. Baseball games are only played in September and October, right?



NEWSFLASH: ITS JULY (in 2 days) ! His August numbers overall suck too. That translates to 3/4 months left this year he will be terrible based on his career trends. You will have a TREMENDOUS July though.. or half July depending when the deal is made. Hudson isn't worth 15 good days of Dunn.

Slappy
06-29-2010, 02:37 PM
Just get me Prince Fielder. I'd give up a ton for him as long as he is signing an extension.

Prince Fielder? Why? Guy weighs 300 pounds and has been pretty much a bust this year so far.

If Dunn is the best we can get, I'm all for it.

soltrain21
06-29-2010, 02:42 PM
Prince Fielder? Why? Guy weighs 300 pounds and has been pretty much a bust this year so far.

If Dunn is the best we can get, I'm all for it.

Even in a "bust year" Prince is still has an OBP of 385 and 15 home runs. Look at his numbers last year. Just look at them.

I was not aware Boras was his agent, though.

KMcMahon817
06-29-2010, 03:20 PM
Dunn's numbers in Sept/Oct while playing for long-eliminated teams have little bearing on how he'd perform in a pennant race.

I'd love to see Dunn here without giving up Hudson. I wonder if Flowers and Torres would get it done...

People on this exact some forum were saying that Paulie wouldn't garner the Sox any top prospects. I don't see how Dunn is any different. I have no problem trading away Torres, please, he isn't going to see any time in the Sox rotation. But, I would like to avoid trading Flowers, if possible. But, then again, I really have no idea what it would take to get Dunn.

balke
06-29-2010, 03:32 PM
People on this exact some forum were saying that Paulie wouldn't garner the Sox any top prospects. I don't see how Dunn is any different. I have no problem trading away Torres, please, he isn't going to see any time in the Sox rotation. But, I would like to avoid trading Flowers, if possible. But, then again, I really have no idea what it would take to get Dunn.


$$$$$$

And a deal better than what the Angels offer.

LoveYourSuit
06-29-2010, 03:32 PM
Please read again:


I sure hope this is true, man we badly need real DH to plug in right now.

Getting Dunn would be pie to Ozzie's face and his whole stand on not wanting Thome back.

The Sox would have brought back Thome, we would not be in this situation. Not saying Thome is as good as Dunn right now, but for the sake of money and prospects, I think he would be more than enough. Thome has a .927 OPS right now in limited play.


In extremely limited play. If you actually think Thome and Dunn are comparable at this phase of their career, you're mistaken.

KMcMahon817
06-29-2010, 03:36 PM
$$$$$$

And a deal better than what the Angels offer.

Right. But, it's not like Paulie services wouldn't have been wanted by more than one team. I just think its funny that people were saying Paulie would be nothing more than a salary dump and the Nats will receive a top prospect for Dunn. They make the same money, Konerko is a better first baseman, and has better stats all around this year.

Pablo_Honey
06-29-2010, 03:37 PM
NEWSFLASH: ITS JULY (in 2 days) ! His August numbers overall suck too. That translates to 3/4 months left this year he will be terrible based on his career trends. You will have a TREMENDOUS July though.. or half July depending when the deal is made. Hudson isn't worth 15 good days of Dunn.
2001: .282 .397 .691 12 HRs
2002: .160 .305 .283 3 HRs
2003: .171 .320 .268 1 HR (Only played in 13 games)
2004: .262 .350 .650 11 HRs
2005: .233 .384 .411 4 HRs
2006: .188 .284 .416 7 HRs
2007: .276 .443 .621 9 HRs
2008: .217 .395 .337 2 HRs
2009: .297 .453 .659 9 HRs
Carrer: .235 .373 .497

IMHO, I think he's just fine in August. His career line is heavily skewed by a few horrendous Augusts he's had in the past but otherwise, he's been rock solid. Even at his worst, he could still probably outdo whatever production (or lack thereof) Jonesay duo will provide us. So yeah, that's July + August, roughly about 2/3rds of the rest of the season. (Let's not count October as a month - we play 3 freaking regular season games in October)

There is no strong pattern here that indicates he will struggle in August. Even if there was, it's still not a good idea to conclude he will suck in August with the Sox because he will be facing different competition in a different environment. He may suck or he may go on a complete tear. Given what we know about Dunn, there is no reason to expect he will stink up the joint like Swisher did.

Now, I will hate to see Hudson go after his dramatic run last year but he was never projected to be more than a #3 starter. Also, I'm still skeptical of the Sox' ability to develop prospects. Hey, if Kenny can pull off a deal without involving him, that's fantastic but I wouldn't lose my sleep over giving up Hudson.

KMcMahon817
06-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Please read again:

Cool. You were still saying Thome would be passable in the Sox offense. I disagree.

Edit: Better than Kotsay though. :) haha

balke
06-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Another fun fact:

Ken Rosenthal notes that Dunn "does not want to become a DH." :o:

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 03:39 PM
Cool. You were still saying Thome would be passable in the Sox offense. I disagree.

Edit: Better than Kotsay though. :) haha
Far, far, far better.

KMcMahon817
06-29-2010, 03:39 PM
Far, far, far better.

Indeed.

pythons007
06-29-2010, 03:52 PM
So everyone is talking about his stats in two months. What if we change the player to A-Rod (just as an example). Until last year he completely sucked ass in post season play.

Dunn has never to my recollection played for a playoff team. Now, if we can get him instead of trotting Kotsay and Jones, I would much rather have that. We have a hole to fill and if you think Dunn isn't good enough to be better that what we currently have, that would be a viable arguement, but just throwing out career numbers in the month aren't.

Answer me this, would you rather have Adam Dunn at DH or would you rather keep trotting out Kotsay and Adam Jones on a regular basis popping out with RISP?

balke
06-29-2010, 03:56 PM
So everyone is talking about his stats in two months. What if we change the player to A-Rod (just as an example). Until last year he completely sucked ass in post season play.

Dunn has never to my recollection played for a playoff team. Now, if we can get him instead of trotting Kotsay and Jones, I would much rather have that. We have a hole to fill and if you think Dunn isn't good enough to be better that what we currently have, that would be a viable arguement, but just throwing out career numbers in the month aren't.

Answer me this, would you rather have Adam Dunn at DH or would you rather keep trotting out Kotsay and Adam Jones on a regular basis popping out with RISP?




To be honest with you - I don't trust him or want him. And if he's going to play defense for this team... I'll take Kotsay and Jones.

kittle42
06-29-2010, 04:17 PM
So, you see, both Dunn and I were under Oveur, even though I was under Dunn.

DickAllen72
06-29-2010, 04:29 PM
To be honest with you - I don't trust him or want him. And if he's going to play defense for this team... I'll take Kotsay and Jones.
I'd love to have Dunn as a DH but I wouldn't want to see him playing defense at any position except in an emergency. And I don't trust Ozzie to keep Dunn off 1B or OF.

But I'd trade Flowers, Torres and Rodriguez for him today if the Nats would take it.

Domeshot17
06-29-2010, 04:37 PM
To be honest with you - I don't trust him or want him. And if he's going to play defense for this team... I'll take Kotsay and Jones.

If you want to see baseball for the Sox beyond game 162, you better hope we find something better. DH, the most offensive driven position in baseball, the White Sox are dead last in production, think that might make up the 2 games we trail the division by?

kittle42
06-29-2010, 04:49 PM
To be honest with you - I don't trust him or want him. And if he's going to play defense for this team... I'll take Kotsay and Jones.

Wow. Just wow. Those two are just terrible. Dunn, on the other hand, is far from it.

Domeshot17
06-29-2010, 04:56 PM
I don't think people realize what lineup protection is. Right now our 5 hitter (Quentin) is getting no protection. No pitcher is afraid to pitch to Mark Kotsay, they know he won't do anything. You put Dunn in probably the 4, you now provide protection to the 3 hitter (Rios), the 5 hitter (Konerko) is now protected by Quentin with a high avg hitter in Rios and a high OBP hitter in Dunn infront of him, turning some of these Solo homers into 2 run shots. Quentin in the 6 now has BETTER protection by AJ in the 7 and Alexei in the 8. Quentin in turn sees more fastballs, and has more RBI chances.

Amazing what putting in 1 good hitter and taking out 1 terrrribbbllleeee hitter can do.

Red Barchetta
06-29-2010, 04:58 PM
What is the difference between a strike out and a weak pop out to the second baseman?

...or a double play?! The log jam of Konerko, Thome and Dye last year was rough to watch.

DirtySox
06-29-2010, 05:05 PM
Ah yes, the base cloggers argument. I forgot how terrible it was.

balke
06-29-2010, 05:10 PM
Wow. Just wow. Those two are just terrible. Dunn, on the other hand, is far from it.

Those 2 can field the position. Dunn says he DOES NOT want to be a DH. I do NOT want him on the field unless its Sunday.

Here's my whole argument. The Sox traded for Jim Thome in 2006 right? A power lefty DH who has a lower batting average - higher OBP and hits for power and RBI.

Did those teams work?

I don't want the Sox to blow there wad on Dunn. If they got him and he agrees to play DH and the worst the Sox lost was Torres and Flowers... that helps the team.

If they lose anyone and he plays defense - or pouts because he has to be a DH... not worth it.

There are other options out there. And if it means waiting til next season and paying for a good free agent so be it. This team was completely out 2 weeks ago. I'm not totally convinced 1 .250 avg DH makes them better than the Yankees. I'd really like them to do the right thing and find a suitable 3Bman. Teahan has proven he is an overpaid utilityman at this point and Vizquel isn't getting younger.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 05:12 PM
Those 2 can field the position. Dunn says he DOES NOT want to be a DH. I do NOT want him on the field unless its Sunday.

Here's my whole argument. The Sox traded for Jim Thome in 2006 right? A power lefty DH who has a lower batting average - higher OBP and hits for power and RBI.

Did those teams work?

I don't want the Sox to blow there wad on Dunn. If they got him and he agrees to play DH and the worst the Sox lost was Torres and Flowers... that helps the team.

If they lose anyone and he plays defense - or pouts because he has to be a DH... not worth it.

There are other options out there. And if it means waiting til next season and paying for a good free agent so be it. This team was completely out 2 weeks ago. I'm not totally convinced 1 .250 avg DH makes them better than the Yankees. I'd really like them to do the right thing and find a suitable 3Bman. Teahan has proven he is an overpaid utilityman at this point and Vizquel isn't getting younger.
That settles it!

Pablo_Honey
06-29-2010, 05:16 PM
Did those teams work?
Really? You are blaming the downfall of 2006 on our offense? This is just as silly as saying Jim Thome did not bring us championship titles because, you know, the pitching staff in 2006 was so great.

balke
06-29-2010, 05:18 PM
Really? You are blaming the downfall of 2006 on our offense? This is just as silly as saying Jim Thome did not bring us championship titles because, you know, the pitching staff in 2006 was so great.


2007 2008 2009.

Swisher didn't work out well for the Sox either. I don't think a guy who can't hit for average is going to work on this team. They need a real hitter. They've led the league in hr's many times this decade - didn't make them the best offense.

balke
06-29-2010, 05:21 PM
That settles it!

Well if they are dumb enough to trade Hudson for an expensive rental DH who demands to play a position - makes a ton of errors - and hits .220 with 3HR's this September... that's the only way my point will be made.

In the meantime - I say pass. The price has to be low if the Sox want Dunn. And he better not come to the AL thinking he's and everyday 1Bman. If he wants to be an everyday 1Bman - we should help the Angels trade for him to better the Sox' chances in the playoffs.

WSox597
06-29-2010, 05:32 PM
Ozzie would still find a way to work Kotsay into the starting lineup.

In center, if he has the chance. :D:

Pablo_Honey
06-29-2010, 05:36 PM
2007 2008 2009.

Swisher didn't work out well for the Sox either. I don't think a guy who can't hit for average is going to work on this team. They need a real hitter. They've led the league in hr's many times this decade - didn't make them the best offense.
2007, everyone in the lineup except Thome and Paulie sucked. Sure we had three decent starters but it didn't help that we had to deal with one guy too old and one guy too young at the back of the rotation. It also didn't hlep that the entire bullpen except Jenks imploded (Wassermann emerged as a savior for crying out loud).

2008, we made it to the postseason relying on one man who could walk and hit for power and we would have gotten there much easily had it not been for the horrible luck Swisher got into. That offense worked in conjunction with our solid pitching staff.

2009, we didn't have a single guy who had an OPS over .900. A few key players sucked in second half (Dye, Rios, Buehrle) and some were injured and joined the team too late (Quentin, Peavy). Our own closer also was ineffective and that cost us a few games too. We dumped Swisher who went on to have a nice season with the Yanks. In his place, Kenny put the guy who could field the position in Brian Anderson and that sure worked out great now didn't it?

Boondock Saint
06-29-2010, 05:36 PM
In center, if he has the chance. :D:

You say that like it would be the first time Ozzie has started Kotsay in CF.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 05:36 PM
Well if they are dumb enough to trade Hudson for an expensive rental DH who demands to play a position - makes a ton of errors - and hits .220 with 3HR's this September... that's the only way my point will be made.

In the meantime - I say pass. The price has to be low if the Sox want Dunn. And he better not come to the AL thinking he's and everyday 1Bman. If he wants to be an everyday 1Bman - we should help the Angels trade for him to better the Sox' chances in the playoffs.
I hope by "Sox" you mean the Red ones, as this team isn't doing **** without a designated hitter.

SCCWS
06-29-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't think people realize what lineup protection is. Right now our 5 hitter (Quentin) is getting no protection. No pitcher is afraid to pitch to Mark Kotsay, they know he won't do anything. You put Dunn in probably the 4, you now provide protection to the 3 hitter (Rios), the 5 hitter (Konerko) is now protected by Quentin with a high avg hitter in Rios and a high OBP hitter in Dunn infront of him, turning some of these Solo homers into 2 run shots. Quentin in the 6 now has BETTER protection by AJ in the 7 and Alexei in the 8. Quentin in turn sees more fastballs, and has more RBI chances.

Amazing what putting in 1 good hitter and taking out 1 terrrribbbllleeee hitter can do.

Paul Konerko is having a very good year. The guy who has hit the most behind PK this season----Mark Kotsay. So much for the protection theory

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 05:47 PM
Paul Konerko is having a very good year. The guy who has hit the most behind PK this season----Mark Kotsay. So much for the protection theory
I don't really believe in protection theory, but that's a ****ing stupid argument.

"I got blitzed and made it home safe the other night -- so much for the 'drunk driving' theory!"

doublem23
06-29-2010, 05:56 PM
I already posted his career #s. They aren't anymore flattering.

.221 .353 .418 .772

That's way more production than we ever get out of our current DH platoon.

sullythered
06-29-2010, 06:24 PM
40 dingers + 40% of the damn time on base = super ****ing awesome.

I would LOVE to have Adam Dunn on this team. Though I wouldn't give up Hudson for a rental.

kittle42
06-29-2010, 06:54 PM
Here's my whole argument. The Sox traded for Jim Thome in 2006 right? A power lefty DH who has a lower batting average - higher OBP and hits for power and RBI.

Did those teams work?

To paraphrase Samir,

This is horrible, this argument.

kittle42
06-29-2010, 06:56 PM
I don't really believe in protection theory, but that's a ****ing stupid argument.

"I got blitzed and made it home safe the other night -- so much for the 'drunk driving' theory!"

You are on fire in this thread, Grebeck. Problem is, people will believe what they want to believe.

Zisk77
06-29-2010, 07:01 PM
You are on fire in this thread, Grebeck. Problem is, people will believe what they want to believe.

i believe the children are our future...sexual chocolate! sexual chocolate!

soxfanreggie
06-29-2010, 07:23 PM
Dunn's numbers in Sept/Oct while playing for long-eliminated teams have little bearing on how he'd perform in a pennant race.

I'd love to see Dunn here without giving up Hudson. I wonder if Flowers and Torres would get it done...

Another thing to consider is seeing if a 3rd team wants to get involved who is willing to trade a pitching prospect for someone like Morel. I'm not saying that will happen, but it might take a 3rd team to get something done.

DirtySox
06-29-2010, 07:39 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/383508590/2879639_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/cst_sox) cst_sox (http://twitter.com/cst_sox)
Nats writers are reporting that the Sox have scouts at the Washington game tonight. 2 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/17374360061) via API (http://apiwiki.twitter.com/)

SCCWS
06-29-2010, 07:54 PM
I don't really believe in protection theory, but that's a ****ing stupid argument.

"I got blitzed and made it home safe the other night -- so much for the 'drunk driving' theory!"

I will explain it so maybe you can understand. The poster said TCQ is struggling because Kotsay is hitting behind him. But actually Kotsay has hit more ( 65% of abs) behind Konerko and in front of TCQ.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 08:16 PM
I will explain it so maybe you can understand. The poster said TCQ is struggling because Kotsay is hitting behind him. But actually Kotsay has hit more ( 65% of abs) behind Konerko and in front of TCQ.
Paul Konerko is having a very good year. The guy who has hit the most behind PK this season----Mark Kotsay. So much for the protection theory

I suggest a more cogent sentence order.

balke
06-29-2010, 10:22 PM
I hope by "Sox" you mean the Red ones, as this team isn't doing **** without a designated hitter.

Dunn isn't the only option for that position. And I'd like to reiterate the biggest problem I have with him: Adam Dunn does not want to become a DH.

spawn
06-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Dunn isn't the only option for that position. And I'd like to reiterate the biggest problem I have with him: Adam Dunn does not want to become a DH.


With the way Ozzie rotates the DH, Dunn would get plenty of playing time in the outfield.

Pablo_Honey
06-29-2010, 10:35 PM
Dunn isn't the only option for that position. And I'd like to reiterate the biggest problem I have with him: Adam Dunn does not want to become a DH.

You say that as if Dunn has a no-trade clause or something. What he wants means jacksquat in the end - Nats like the offer, the deal goes through. Besides, being traded is part of pro sports; if he gets all pouty because he's not getting precious field time with his new team, then he's begging to be labelled a clubhouse cancer. Whether he DHs or not, his bat will earn him the dough anyway. Look at Matsui and Vlad - both guys wanted to play the field but ultimately ended up primarily as a DH. Guess what happened to that one guy who was hellbent on not DHing? Still without a team. If Dunn and his manager are smart, they will accept the fate of DH.

soxinem1
06-29-2010, 10:36 PM
I would neither want to give up much of anything for Dunn, nor extend him.

For what, to replace PK at 1B in 2011? Dunn is not worth his salary, or what it would take to get him, unless WAS takes Teahen back with his full salary as a start.

KW should call SEA about Branyan. He will do pretty much the same thing Dunn will, at a far, far less cost. And he can be serviceable at 1B, 3B, DH, or LF.

PhillipsBubba
06-29-2010, 10:47 PM
Kenny works under the radar. Rumors this early b4 the trading deadline seldom pan out. I don't see this one happening.

kittle42
06-29-2010, 10:57 PM
KW should call SEA about Branyan. He will do pretty much the same thing Dunn will, at a far, far less cost. And he can be serviceable at 1B, 3B, DH, or LF.

I'm starting to worry about some of our fans...Branyan v. Dunn? Ugh.

DirtySox
06-29-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm starting to worry about some of our fans...Branyan v. Dunn? Ugh.

No kidding. This thread is chock full of hilarity.

Tragg
06-29-2010, 11:04 PM
He's not an elite hitter nor is he the profile of hitter we need for long term (an athletic outfielder)
Rent is fine- at a renter's price, which is much less than Hudson/flowers and anything close to a top prospect.

DirtySox
06-29-2010, 11:09 PM
He's not an elite hitter nor is he the profile of hitter we need for long term (an athletic outfielder)
Rent is fine- at a renter's price, which is much less than Hudson/flowers and anything close to a top prospect.

You need to take into account the likelihood of Type A compensation.

Pablo_Honey
06-29-2010, 11:10 PM
KW should call SEA about Branyan. He will do pretty much the same thing Dunn will, at a far, far less cost. And he can be serviceable at 1B, 3B, DH, or LF.
He will cost almost to nothing, I will give you that but I just don't see how he will perform near Dunn's level. The guy can't stay healthy at all. Since 2002, he played 100+ games only ONCE and even in that season he only managed 116 games worth of playing time. With Dunn, at least 150 games of playing time is expected barring freak accidents. Even when he's healthy, Branyan's bat is far from impressive. The difference is in the ability to draw walks. Branyan has trouble getting on base - in 9 seasons, he had trouble cracking .350 OBP and he only did crack it ONCE. This is worsened by the fact he can't hit for average either. Basically, Branyan possesses the same kind of garbage hitting the Sox offense very often displays. The reason people want Dunn is because he can be the impact bat this lineup desparately needs. Trading for Branyan is a very marginal upgrade (although less playing time for Jonesay is pretty nice).

theamb
06-29-2010, 11:25 PM
What could we possibly offer the Nationals for Dunn?

Six months of Deep Dish Pizza?

BadBobbyJenks
06-29-2010, 11:26 PM
What could we possibly offer the Nationals for Dunn?

Six months of Deep Dish Pizza?

Carlos Torres and Tyler Flowers?

Coops4Aces
06-29-2010, 11:30 PM
I already posted his career #s. They aren't anymore flattering.

.221 .353 .418 .772

Who's career numbers are those?

theamb
06-29-2010, 11:31 PM
Carlos Torres and Tyler Flowers?

+....?

munchman33
06-29-2010, 11:33 PM
You need to take into account the likelihood of Type A compensation.

No kidding, we could give up Flowers and Hudson and then some and still come out on top when it comes to prospects if he doesn't accept arbitration. Some people here just have no clue when it comes to the value of our prospects. Neither Flowers nor Hudson are blue chip prospects. Flowers is a good hitter, but a poor catcher if he sticks there. Hudson's ceiling ranges from 3 to 6 depending on what scout you ask. Not exactly deal breakers. They are simply the best we have.

Sam Spade
06-29-2010, 11:37 PM
The mariners just traded for branyan. Does anyone really think they will just trade him again to us?

kittle42
06-30-2010, 12:13 AM
The mariners just traded for branyan. Does anyone really think they will just trade him again to us?

Let's hope they wouldn't.

Ron Karkovice
06-30-2010, 01:14 AM
I would neither want to give up much of anything for Dunn, nor extend him.

For what, to replace PK at 1B in 2011? Dunn is not worth his salary, or what it would take to get him, unless WAS takes Teahen back with his full salary as a start.

KW should call SEA about Branyan. He will do pretty much the same thing Dunn will, at a far, far less cost. And he can be serviceable at 1B, 3B, DH, or LF.

Dunn: (hr, rbi, walk, k, ....)
08: 40 100 122 164 2 1 .236 .386 .513 .89909:
09: 38 105 116 177 0 1 .267 .398 .529 .92710:
10: 17 47 36 86 0 0 .276 .366 .559 .925

Branyan
(injuries obviously, the guy hasnt played 90 games since '06)
08: 12 20 19 42 1 0 .250 .342 .58309:
09: 31 76 58 149 2 0 .251 .347 .520 .86710:
10: 10 24 16 49 0 0 .263 .328 .491 .819

I disagree that Branyan would do even close to the same as Dunn, not to mention that Branyan appears to NEVER stay injury free (besides last year)... You are correct in that he is way cheaper (10.5 m vs. 1.5 m).

VMSNS
06-30-2010, 07:04 AM
How about Kotsay, Jones, Teahen, and a bag of balls for Dunn?

I think Dunn would be a good addition to the team, but not at the cost of Hudson or Flowers, and certainly not Morel. Sorry, but I'd take a pass on this one.

asindc
06-30-2010, 08:32 AM
One of the sports radio channels here reported this morning that the Sox have expressed interest in Dunn and that the Nats are open to the idea of trading him. Take it for what it is worth.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 08:42 AM
With the way Ozzie rotates the DH, Dunn would get plenty of playing time in the outfield.

Thank you.

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 08:50 AM
Which is one reason Ozzie sucks.

Tinker, tinker.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 08:54 AM
2001: .282 .397 .691 12 HRs
2002: .160 .305 .283 3 HRs
2003: .171 .320 .268 1 HR (Only played in 13 games)
2004: .262 .350 .650 11 HRs
2005: .233 .384 .411 4 HRs
2006: .188 .284 .416 7 HRs
2007: .276 .443 .621 9 HRs
2008: .217 .395 .337 2 HRs
2009: .297 .453 .659 9 HRs
Carrer: .235 .373 .497

IMHO, I think he's just fine in August. His career line is heavily skewed by a few horrendous Augusts he's had in the past but otherwise, he's been rock solid. Even at his worst, he could still probably outdo whatever production (or lack thereof) Jonesay duo will provide us. So yeah, that's July + August, roughly about 2/3rds of the rest of the season. (Let's not count October as a month - we play 3 freaking regular season games in October)

There is no strong pattern here that indicates he will struggle in August. Even if there was, it's still not a good idea to conclude he will suck in August with the Sox because he will be facing different competition in a different environment. He may suck or he may go on a complete tear. Given what we know about Dunn, there is no reason to expect he will stink up the joint like Swisher did.

Now, I will hate to see Hudson go after his dramatic run last year but he was never projected to be more than a #3 starter. Also, I'm still skeptical of the Sox' ability to develop prospects. Hey, if Kenny can pull off a deal without involving him, that's fantastic but I wouldn't lose my sleep over giving up Hudson.

What's wrong with a #3 starter? I'd be happy if he became that for us.

I know what your saying about holding on to Sox prospects that never pan out, but at some point we need to bring up someone from our system into our rotation. Garcia might be gone after this year, Buehrle is in the last year of his contract next year. If the Sox really believe in Hudson, then we're going to need him fairly soon to be a part of our rotation.

I'm also reluctant to part with Flowers because AJ might be gone next year and we don't have any one in our system that could take his place.

I do think the Sox need another bat if they're going to be contenders this year, but we might be sorry for the next several years if we part with Hudson or Flowers for a 2 or 3-month rental.

Iwritecode
06-30-2010, 09:22 AM
Who's career numbers are those?

Certainly not Dunn's. :scratch:

Jollyroger2
06-30-2010, 09:25 AM
What could we possibly offer the Nationals for Dunn?

Six months of Deep Dish Pizza?

Other than hitting the lottery with Strasburg, Kasten and co. are so clueless out here that they just might take that deal.

asindc
06-30-2010, 09:41 AM
Other than hitting the lottery with Strasburg, Kasten and co. are so clueless out here that they just might take that deal.

I think the current management has been much better than when Bowden was the GM. There now seems to be a coherent long term strategy in place, whereas Bowden's plan seemed to be just sign all the Cincy rejects that he had signed when with Cincy himself.

balke
06-30-2010, 09:50 AM
Certainly not Dunn's. :scratch:

Read the thread. This is Adam Dunn's career Sept/Oct #'s. He historically has been bad in September.

Last year alone:

Dunn:
.212 .322 .333 .655

Kotsay
.324 .385 .493 .878




And if anyone thinks that's "nitpicking" - ask Juan Uribe. His career Sept/Oct? .297 .335 .549 .885

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 10:03 AM
Rizzo will be on ESPN 1000 in a few minutes..

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 10:06 AM
What's wrong with a #3 starter? I'd be happy if he became that for us.

I know what your saying about holding on to Sox prospects that never pan out, but at some point we need to bring up someone from our system into our rotation. Garcia might be gone after this year, Buehrle is in the last year of his contract next year. If the Sox really believe in Hudson, then we're going to need him fairly soon to be a part of our rotation.

I'm also reluctant to part with Flowers because AJ might be gone next year and we don't have any one in our system that could take his place.

I do think the Sox need another bat if they're going to be contenders this year, but we might be sorry for the next several years if we part with Hudson or Flowers for a 2 or 3-month rental.
You do make a good point about Hudson and Flowers. Maybe it's better to hold on to both guys and see where we go from there. Still, I'm skeptical mainly because of their performances so far this year, Flowers especially. He's putting up some ugly numbers down there. The kid's already 24 and he is not getting any younger soon. Seeing as how his bat will get him the starting job with the Sox, that's just not good.

I guess I'm just tired of a lifeless offence that relies on one or two good guys to carry them through. Adding Dunn to the lineup would give us a Rios-Dunn-Konerko cleanup combination which is way more lethal than Rios-Konerko-Kotsay/Quentin/Jones. We have gained a momentum which now seems to be fading away thanks to a poor display of hitting by the Sox hitters (And even the winning streak that created the momentum was sustained mostly becaue of spectacular pitching). My gut feeling says we have a shot at it this year so we might as well make a push for it all the way.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 10:15 AM
Read the thread. This is Adam Dunn's career Sept/Oct #'s. He historically has been bad in September.

Last year alone:

Dunn:
.212 .322 .333 .655

Kotsay
.324 .385 .493 .878




And if anyone thinks that's "nitpicking" - ask Juan Uribe. His career Sept/Oct? .297 .335 .549 .885

I'm not even sure what Uribe's numbers have to do with this at all, but nice job cherry-picking 78 PA worth of stats for Kotsay in garbage time. Obviously, that's the only thing that matters, even though Dunn gets on base more and hits for way, way, way more power, 1 month's worth of split stats is enough.

balke
06-30-2010, 10:19 AM
I'm not even sure what Uribe's numbers have to do with this at all, but nice job cherry-picking 78 PA worth of stats for Kotsay in garbage time. Obviously, that's the only thing that matters, even though Dunn gets on base more and hits for way, way, way more power, 1 month's worth of split stats is enough.

The Sox are making a 2-3 month investment. Its nice to look at what he's done in that time. There are many players who find a consistent rhythm for a season. Pitchers and hitters alike can have tremendous Junes and Julys to cover up horrible Aprils Mays and Septembers.

Uribe is a prime example of a guy who hits in a certain month. I believe Alexei likes to hit in June July and August and falls off in September as well.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 10:20 AM
Read the thread. This is Adam Dunn's career Sept/Oct #'s. He historically has been bad in September.
I'm not even gonna bother posting the stats again but you are just falling into the confirmatory bias. Go look up his September splits for each individual season and you will see he's had just as many good Septembers as bad Septembers. In fact, his 2008 September was great but that sure isn't sufficient to say he's good in September now is it?

I'm gonna say it again: A correlation does not mean a cause-effect relationship. There are way too many factors to take into consideration that you can't simply say the month of September makes him perform badly. I did notice that he had trouble slugging past .500 in September for some reason (He did it only once, in 2008). Again, it could be a coincidence or it may not be one. I don't know, nobody knows not even Adam Dunn himself.

35th and Shields
06-30-2010, 10:23 AM
If it takes Flowers, Torres, and a couple other mid level guys I'd do it in a second but there's no way even the Nationals would take that deal.

I don't see it being worth both Hudson and Flowers + whoever else, which is likely what it would take given his predicted type A status. I would love to win a division title but what about next year and the year after? As is we basically have zero in-house options. Hell, we don't even have anyone to consider taking Beckham or Jones/Kotsay's spots in the lineup, thats how thin we are. It's just not worth it IMO, to spend it all on Adam Dunn.

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 10:43 AM
I wonder if the Mariners would trade Ichrio because of his age and that they need a lot of help.

He would be the perfect fit for the Sox..

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 10:51 AM
I wonder if the Mariners would trade Ichrio because of his age and that they need a lot of help.

He would be the perfect fit for the Sox..
Erm, no, I don't think a table setter is what we need the most right now. He could bat 3rd but we already have Rios for that. Besides, he is even more expensive than Dunn and Zduriencik is definitely smart enough to hold onto a franchise star.

Boondock Saint
06-30-2010, 10:52 AM
I wonder if the Mariners would trade Ichrio because of his age and that they need a lot of help.

He would be the perfect fit for the Sox..

No, he isn't. We need a middle of the lineup kind of hitter, not a slap hitting top of the order guy.

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 10:54 AM
I rather have a guy who can get on base with speed and plays a great defense over a guy who strikes out about 170 times

DSpivack
06-30-2010, 10:56 AM
I rather have a guy who can get on base with speed and plays a great defense over a guy who strikes out about 170 times

I don't think Ichiro is going anywhere, no matter how bad the Mariners are or get. Just too much of a marketing fixture and star.

soltrain21
06-30-2010, 10:56 AM
I rather have a guy who can get on base with speed and plays a great defense over a guy who strikes out about 170 times

We don't need a great defender if he is your DH. Dunn gets on base. Sure, he isn't fast - but what power hitters are?

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 10:58 AM
We don't need a great defender if he is your DH. Dunn gets on base. Sure, he isn't fast - but what power hitters are?

Quentin would be my DH

balke
06-30-2010, 11:01 AM
No, he isn't. We need a middle of the lineup kind of hitter, not a slap hitting top of the order guy.

I'll take 30+ more hits in the second half.

kittle42
06-30-2010, 11:30 AM
I find the anti-Adam Dunn crusade quite amusing, particularly when the concern is giving up such amazing guaranteed future stars as Hudson and Flowers.

Nothing has beaten the notion that Branyan gives you just as much production yet, though.

DirtySox
06-30-2010, 11:34 AM
I find the anti-Adam Dunn crusade quite amusing, particularly when the concern is giving up such amazing guaranteed future stars as Hudson and Flowers.

Nothing has beaten the notion that Branyan gives you just as much production yet, though.

Pretty much. I'm pro-Dunn but I hope Kenny doesn't overpay.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 11:36 AM
I'll take 30+ more hits in the second half.
So, you'd exchange homeruns and walks for singles?

Back to the original topic -

There was this one guy who put up these numbers in the 2nd half:
2006: .261 .297 .411
2007: .300 .360 .471
2008: .300 .337 .542
Based on this info, what was his 2nd half split for 2009? One would guess it to be .300 .330 .450. Acutally, the correct answer is .224 .263 .361

And yes, that's Alex Rios we are talking about here. Going by your logic, Rios was to play well in the second half and that was a fact. Yeah, that surely happened and the Sox were saved. Rios merely moved to a different team in the same league. Dunn would be moving to a different league. There's no telling what can happen. Stop spewing out predictions like it's fact.

balke
06-30-2010, 11:42 AM
So, you'd exchange homeruns and walks for singles?

Back to the original topic -

There was this one guy who put up these numbers in the 2nd half:
2006: .261 .297 .411
2007: .300 .360 .471
2008: .300 .337 .542
Based on this info, what was his 2nd half split for 2009? One would guess it to be .300 .330 .450. Acutally, the correct answer is .224 .263 .361

And yes, that's Alex Rios we are talking about here. Going by your logic, Rios was to play well in the second half and that was a fact. Yeah, that surely happened and the Sox were saved. Rios merely moved to a different team in the same league. Dunn would be moving to a different league. There's no telling what can happen. Stop spewing out predictions like it's fact.


Okay... then I guess Adam Dunn has a flaw in his swing every September? This must be the year he figures it out.

And yes in a heartbeat I'd take 30 HITS. Especially from a guy like Ichiro who can steal to turn singles into doubles - field his position and hit for extra base power as well. That's actually about the biggest no brainer I can think of.

This team is already 7th in HR in the league.
On the other hand they are 24th in batting average. 26th in hits.

kittle42
06-30-2010, 11:48 AM
Okay... then I guess Adam Dunn has a flaw in his swing every September? This must be the year he figures it out.

His 2007 was good and his 2008 wasn't horrid. I didn't go back further than that, but as was mentioned earlier in this thread, you might want to look into the numbers a little more than just looking at his career Sept/Oct line.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 12:00 PM
Okay... then I guess Adam Dunn has a flaw in his swing every September? This must be the year he figures it out.
A guy suddenly does not start to have mechanical issues detrimental to his performance in his 6th full time season. I think it was more like everyone trying to find an excuse for his unlucky/crappy performance so they nitpicked on the most visible thing - his ugly mechanics (Rios always had that crouch and he still has it). I picked Rios to show that stats from the past are not always indications of the future, but anyway I digress.

And yes in a heartbeat I'd take 30 HITS. Especially from a guy like Ichiro who can steal to turn singles into doubles - field his position and hit for extra base power as well. That's actually about the biggest no brainer I can think of.
We already got a guy who does that for us. His name is Juan Pierre. And no, I don't mean Pierre is Ichiro-level (He's far far from it) but we've got a guy who fits the niche Ichiro fits. Why bother trading for an expensive marginal upgrade?

This team is already 7th in HR in the league.
On the other hand they are 24th in batting average. 26th in hits.
The Cell is designed to create homeruns at the cost of everything else. You build the team to its park's strengths (See example: San Diego Padres) and only when the team is sufficiently strong in that regard do you start fortifying other needs. With the park we play in, Sox should easily be in top 5 for HRs. 7th is just not good enough.

balke
06-30-2010, 12:08 PM
We already got a guy who does that for us. His name is Juan Pierre. And no, I don't mean Pierre is Ichiro-level (He's far far from it) but we've got a guy who fits the niche Ichiro fits. We have a 200 hits guy on this team who hit .352 last year and can steal and play GG defense?

Pretty sure Ichiro could hit in #2 slot or #1 slot on this team - just a guess.


Why bother trading for an expensive marginal upgrade?Marginal? Ichiro is an actual baseball player - not a softball league HR hitting strikeout machine/butcher in the field.

Ichiro pays for himself with his japanese tv rights and fanbase. And he's a pipe dream. There's nothing the Sox could offer to get him short of Danks.

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 12:09 PM
We have a 200 hits guy on this team who hit .352 last year and can steal and play GG defense?

Pretty sure Ichiro could hit in #2 slot or #1 slot on this team - just a guess.
Marginal? Ichiro is an actual baseball player - not a softball league HR hitting strikeout machine/butcher in the field.

Ichiro pays for himself with his japanese tv rights and fanbase. And he's a pipe dream. There's nothing the Sox could offer to get him short of Danks.

I have agreed with a balke post, my life is complete :bandance:

balke
06-30-2010, 12:15 PM
The Cell is designed to create homeruns at the cost of everything else. You build the team to its park's strengths (See example: San Diego Padres) and only when the team is sufficiently strong in that regard do you start fortifying other needs. With the park we play in, Sox should easily be in top 5 for HRs. 7th is just not good enough.

Station-to-station HR or nothing baseball. 2007 HOW I MISS YOU. Or maybe the Sox can hope to go out in the first round again like 2008.

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 12:19 PM
Station-to-station HR or nothing baseball. 2007 HOW I MISS YOU. Or maybe the Sox can hope to go out in the first round again like 2008.
Check what teams generally lead MLB in offense -- those with the most HR or those with the most hits.

russ99
06-30-2010, 12:25 PM
The teams with the most runs or wins aren't usually those with the most HRs.

Runs win ballgames. Sure 2 or 3 runs at a time are nice, but what happens when the homers dry up, like the during last 2 weeks?

That's a credit to this team where they can find ways to win then the homers dry up, as opposed to last year's team in July and August.

However, the level of competition probably has some bearing on that so far. If the Sox can do that against good AL teams like Anaheim and Texas, I'll be more convinced.

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 12:26 PM
I rather have Ichrio or any guy like him over any person that K's about 160 times a year and hits 35 home runs.

balke
06-30-2010, 12:29 PM
Check what teams generally lead MLB in offense -- those with the most HR or those with the most hits.

Nope. I believe in a balanced offense. Go find me a title holder in the past decade who was in the bottom 10 of batting average.

2007 the Sox were like 5th in HR and dead last in batting average. I think if you go back and look I think they sucked.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 12:30 PM
I rather have Ichrio or any guy like him over any person that K's about 160 times a year and hits 35 home runs.

Will someone PLEASE tell me what is the difference between a strikeout and any other kind of out? I cannot figure out what the point is to always noting that Dunn K's alot, especially when you ignore the fact that he's got one of the highest OBPs in baseball history.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 12:30 PM
IMO, any mention of getting Ichiro in this thread is a waste of time because it's not going to happen.

By the way, according to the Daily Herald, one sources says the Nationals would want Gordon Beckham in exchange for Dunn:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=391015&src=162

doublem23
06-30-2010, 12:33 PM
Nope. I believe in a balanced offense. Go find me a title holder in the past decade who was in the bottom 10 of batting average.

2007 the Sox were like 5th in HR and dead last in batting average. I think if you go back and look I think they sucked.

The Sox in '05 were 3 points away from the Bottom 10 in the league, which isn't really a fair way to look at teams since the NL has no DH and therefore, obviously, have much worse BA's.

Singles don't win championships.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/scott-podsednik-white-sox.jpg

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 12:35 PM
Will someone PLEASE tell me what is the difference between a strikeout and any other kind of out? I cannot figure out what the point is to always noting that Dunn K's alot, especially when you ignore the fact that he's got one of the highest OBPs in baseball history.

The difference is a guy like Ichrio puts the ball in play and a lot can happen that leads to a run or getting the batter on base. While a player like Dunn kills rallys with his many strikeouts.

35th and Shields
06-30-2010, 12:36 PM
IMO, any mention of getting Ichiro in this thread is a waste of time because it's not going to happen.

By the way, according to the Daily Herald, one sources says the Nationals would want Gordon Beckham in exchange for Dunn:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=391015&src=162
Good joke.

soltrain21
06-30-2010, 12:37 PM
IMO, any mention of getting Ichiro in this thread is a waste of time because it's not going to happen.

By the way, according to the Daily Herald, one sources says the Nationals would want Gordon Beckham in exchange for Dunn:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=391015&src=162

For a rental? Wow.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 12:39 PM
The difference is a guy like Ichrio puts the ball in play and a lot can happen that leads to a run or getting the batter on base. While a player like Dunn kills rallys with his many strikeouts.

But that doesn't make any sense, since Dunn makes fewer outs than just about any player in the league (as the high OBP shows). Since when are strikeouts more "rally killing" than ground outs? What is the difference between how the outs are made as long as they're made as infrequently as possible?

The Sox are one of the toughest teams in the AL to strikeout and we still have one of the worst offenses in the league. Strike outs don't count for anything more than a fly out, ground out, etc. Dunn is still a guy who will get on base about 40% of the time and will hit 30-40 HR. What a rally killer!

balke
06-30-2010, 12:40 PM
The Sox in '05 were 3 points away from the Bottom 10 in the league, which isn't really a fair way to look at teams since the NL has no DH and therefore, obviously, have much worse BA's.

Singles don't win championships.



Adam Dunn doesn't win championships.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 12:42 PM
Adam Dunn doesn't win championships.

And, out of curiosity, how many rings does Ichiro, the all-world, most amazingest baseball player ever have?

35th and Shields
06-30-2010, 12:42 PM
Adam Dunn doesn't win championships.
Adam Dunn could definitely help a team get there. I don't get why people think he couldn't be on a good team...It makes no sense.

The biggest probelm is the Nationals demands and what we have to pay to get him. It seems like it will be to much for my liking.

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 12:43 PM
IMO, any mention of getting Ichiro in this thread is a waste of time because it's not going to happen.

By the way, according to the Daily Herald, one sources says the Nationals would want Gordon Beckham in exchange for Dunn:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=391015&src=162

:facepalm:

If the Nationals think they are getting Beckham for any 3 month rental, they are insane.

balke
06-30-2010, 12:46 PM
Singles don't win championships.


Please tell this to the 2002 Anaheim Angels. #1 in hits - tied for 23rd in HRs

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 12:46 PM
We have a 200 hits guy on this team who hit .352 last year and can steal and play GG defense?

Pretty sure Ichiro could hit in #2 slot or #1 slot on this team - just a guess.
...which is why I specified that Pierre feels the same NICHE Ichiro fills. I clearly stated Pierre is not Ichiro-level; in other words, can't produce at his level. However, he is a guy who can score from second base on a single and turn a single into a double by stealing a base. If I were given a choice between Ichiro and Pierre, someone would have to threaten to cut off my balls for me to pick Pierre (and even then, I'd still consider Ichiro). BUT when I already have Pierre and are strapped for cash and have to pick between Dunn and Ichiro, someone would shove **** down my throat for me to choose Ichiro.

Marginal? Ichiro is an actual baseball player - not a softball league HR hitting strikeout machine/butcher in the field.
It shouldn't matter how many times a guy strikes out as long as he can walk and hit homeruns to make up for it, which Dunn does extremely well. Right now, I'd guess that most Sox fans would agree we need a middle of the order guy NOT a singles hitter. Getting Dunn is a HUGE upgrade while Ichiro would provide less impact to our lineup.

As for Ichiro's defensive value, we already have a good outfield defence with Pierre in left and Rios in center. Outfield defence is the least of our worries. Dunn would be limited to first base and left field, two positions that have minimal impact on the team's overall defence. It's not like the guy insists on playing shortstop when he clearly can't field for ****. Besides, we can stick him at DH and tell him to suck it up.

Ichiro pays for himself with his japanese tv rights and fanbase. And he's a pipe dream. There's nothing the Sox could offer to get him short of Danks.
Finally we agree on something.

balke
06-30-2010, 12:55 PM
BUT when I already have Pierre and are strapped for cash and have to pick between Dunn and Ichiro, someone would shove **** down my throat for me to choose Ichiro.


1st ballot hall of famer or 3 month rental of an expensive slow DH that can be bought in the offseason. And you'd say no because of Juan Pierre? :tongue:


Get ahold of yourself man. The Sox don't NEED more HRs. They need a hitter.

KMcMahon817
06-30-2010, 12:57 PM
1st ballot hall of famer or 3 month rental of an expensive slow DH that can be bought in the offseason. And you'd say no because of Juan Pierre? :tongue:


Get ahold of yourself man. The Sox don't NEED more HRs. They need a hitter.


Sure. Fine. Great.

It's not going to be Ichiro. Let it goooo.

kittle42
06-30-2010, 12:59 PM
That's a credit to this team where they can find ways to win then the homers dry up, as opposed to last year's team in July and August.

Yes, your starters go out and have an ERA under 2.00 for 13 games.

Let's not pretend we won a few of those Ozzie lineup 1-0, etc. games because of the team's great ability to manufacture runs.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 01:01 PM
1st ballot hall of famer or 3 month rental of an expensive slow DH that can be bought in the offseason. And you'd say no because of Juan Pierre? :tongue:

Ichiro would also be the highest paid player on the team. People cringe at Dunn's $12 M salary this season, Ichiro is under contract for $17 M until 2012 when he's 38.

Nobody is saying that they wouldn't want Ichiro the player, who is excellent, it's just that he's A) not going to get traded and B) commands a huge salary and is old. Ichiro would be a great fit on just about any team.

Adam Dunn, however, makes a whole lot of sense for the Sox, who have a low OBP, have no discernable DH, and are missing a big, left-handed bat right in the middle of the lineup. ****, my Cub fan friends can even see that he's exactly what we need, and they hardly pay attention to the Sox.

kittle42
06-30-2010, 01:01 PM
and, out of curiosity, how many rings does ichiro, the all-world, most amazingest baseball player ever have?

zing!!!

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 01:03 PM
1st ballot hall of famer or 3 month rental of an expensive slow DH that can be bought in the offseason. And you'd say no because of Juan Pierre? :tongue:


Get ahold of yourself man. The Sox don't NEED more HRs. They need a hitter.
What would you have - two singles hitters with no 40 HR guy in the middle or one single hitter with a 40 HR guy in the middle? You need a little bit of everything to win it all. But let's drop Ichiro talk because like everyone noted, he ain't coming here.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 01:03 PM
Yes, your starters go out and have an ERA under 2.00 for 13 games.

Let's not pretend we won a few of those Ozzie lineup 1-0, etc. games because of the team's great ability to manufacture runs.

Yeah, the Sox offense really hasn't improved much over these last few weeks, and we're still riding around the AL average. This is still a defecient offense that was being carried by the pitching staff, as was KW's master plans.

Either rate, let's also not forget that in the past 2 games, we've scored a combined 4 runs against the Royals in games started by Brian Bannister and Anthony Lerew.

balke
06-30-2010, 01:07 PM
Ichiro would also be the highest paid player on the team. People cringe at Dunn's $12 M salary this season, Ichiro is under contract for $17 M until 2012 when he's 38.

Oh just stop it already. His salary means jack. He MAKES MONEY. TV rights and an entire nation as a fanbase. He'd be paying the Sox 15 million to have him at that price. He's not an option. I just want to point out you are all insane to want Dunn over him.

Boondock Saint
06-30-2010, 01:07 PM
1st ballot hall of famer or 3 month rental of an expensive slow DH that can be bought in the offseason. And you'd say no because of Juan Pierre? :tongue:


Get ahold of yourself man. The Sox don't NEED more HRs. They need a hitter.

Ichiro's history has zero effect on what the Sox currently need most.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 01:10 PM
Oh just stop it already. His salary means jack. He MAKES MONEY. TV rights and an entire nation as a fanbase. He'd be paying the Sox 15 million to have him at that price. He's not an option. I just want to point out you are all insane to want Dunn over him.

This is the first time in the history of the world someone has said a salary means jack when talking about the Sox. So you're telling me if the Sox acquired him today, he'd be bringing in $32 M of revenue? OK... Maybe you should go back to making broad assumptions based on a single month's worth of split stats.

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 01:12 PM
Yeah, the Sox offense really hasn't improved much over these last few weeks, and we're still riding around the AL average. This is still a defecient offense that was being carried by the pitching staff, as was KW's master plans.

Either rate, let's also not forget that in the past 2 games, we've scored a combined 4 runs against the Royals in games started by Brian Bannister and Anthony Lerew.

The White Sox offense is furious that you would misrepresent and shortchange them like that. They scored 5 runs in the past 2 games :tongue:

balke
06-30-2010, 01:25 PM
So you're telling me if the Sox acquired him today, he'd be bringing in $32 M of revenue?

http://www.forbes.com/global/2008/0310/020.html

Over By There
06-30-2010, 01:29 PM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/934235221/Maria2_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin) scottmerkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin)
.... it will probably be very very painful for the team that wants to acquire him." about 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/17430442758) via web

http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/934235221/Maria2_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin) scottmerkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin)
Washington GM Mike Rizzo on trading Adam Dunn on an interview on ESPN 1000 Chicago: "For us to move him will be very painful and ....

asindc
06-30-2010, 01:31 PM
Yes, your starters go out and have an ERA under 2.00 for 13 games.

Let's not pretend we won a few of those Ozzie lineup 1-0, etc. games because of the team's great ability to manufacture runs.

Perhaps not, but we scored 5 or more runs in the majority of the games during that streak.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 01:36 PM
http://www.forbes.com/global/2008/0310/020.html
Read the very first paragraph of the second page of that article. 'nuff said.

TomBradley72
06-30-2010, 01:53 PM
I'd love to have Dunn if he came cheaply but he won't.

I think either Viciedo or Teahen as full time DH (possibly spelling Vizquel at 3rd a few times/week) would give us a decent lift over Kotsay. I'd still like a "big bat" if it's possible...but with our starting pitching, bullpen and improved defense...it might be enough.

balke
06-30-2010, 02:03 PM
Read the very first paragraph of the second page of that article. 'nuff said.


Not 'nuff said. Read the next 2 paragraphs.

Jerseys aren't the only thing you can sell.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 02:10 PM
Not 'nuff said. Read the next 2 paragraphs.

Jerseys aren't the only thing you can sell.
Maybe my English isn't good, but in what part does it say signing guys like Ichiro benefit the teams that sign'em? All I'm reading is how the entire MLB as a franchise is benefiting from international marketing and expanding its fan base overseas. From what I gathered, there is a financial benefit to having players like Ichiro on your team, but it's not all that much (Certainly not enough to cover for Ichiro's $32 mil)

Carolina Kenny
06-30-2010, 02:21 PM
Maybe my English isn't good, but in what part does it say signing guys like Ichiro benefit the teams that sign'em? All I'm reading is how the entire MLB as a franchise is benefiting from international marketing and expanding its fan base overseas. From what I gathered, there is a financial benefit to having players like Ichiro on your team, but it's not all that much (Certainly not enough to cover for Ichiro's $32 mil)

We should be doing outstanding business in Cuba. Uncle Jerry should be all over it.

Iwritecode
06-30-2010, 02:27 PM
Will someone PLEASE tell me what is the difference between a strikeout and any other kind of out? I cannot figure out what the point is to always noting that Dunn K's alot, especially when you ignore the fact that he's got one of the highest OBPs in baseball history.

Depends on the situation.

When you K w/a runner on third there's a nearly 0% chance of scoring a run. On the other hand, there's also a 0% chance of GIDP.

When you hit a sac fly w/ a runner on third, you score a run.

When you ground out to second w/ a runner on second base and less than two outs, you advance the runner.

Chipol
06-30-2010, 02:34 PM
Jenks to PHL and prospects to the Nats for Dunn.

Keeps our prospects.
Addresses the one-year rental aspect (assuming Jenks goes away next year.)
Putz and Thornton as closers. Move everyone else up and backfill at the end.

It's not a deal I'd be really crazy about, but it's better to me than giving up one or all of the few remaining prospects we have.

35th and Shields
06-30-2010, 02:40 PM
Jenks to PHL and prospects to the Nats for Dunn.

Keeps our prospects.
Addresses the one-year rental aspect (assuming Jenks goes away next year.)
Putz and Thornton as closers. Move everyone else up and backfill at the end.

It's not a deal I'd be really crazy about, but it's better to me than giving up one or all of the few remaining prospects we have.
The only problem is that the Nationals appear to want at least two legit prospects, probably more, as they can get at least that by letting him walk and collecting picks. I don't see the Phillies thinking Bobby's value is anywhere near that much.

balke
06-30-2010, 03:18 PM
Maybe my English isn't good, but in what part does it say signing guys like Ichiro benefit the teams that sign'em? All I'm reading is how the entire MLB as a franchise is benefiting from international marketing and expanding its fan base overseas. From what I gathered, there is a financial benefit to having players like Ichiro on your team, but it's not all that much (Certainly not enough to cover for Ichiro's $32 mil)

Ticket sales go up just based on him being a future hall-of-famer. Japanese billboards go up. Nintendo/Nikon/Canon/Sony etc. dump money into the Cell. Crazy money would come in if they made the playoffs his first year. This whole town would be eating sushi.

Hard to quantify an amount - but it would surely be more than the 5-7 mil a year difference between him and Adam Dunn.

Zisk77
06-30-2010, 03:38 PM
Will someone PLEASE tell me what is the difference between a strikeout and any other kind of out? I cannot figure out what the point is to always noting that Dunn K's alot, especially when you ignore the fact that he's got one of the highest OBPs in baseball history.


Strikeouts are not productive. Other kinds of outs can be, such as:

A moderately deep flyball with less than 2 outs and a guy on 3b.

A GB to the right side with a guy on 2b and no one out.

a GB to the middle infield with a guy on 3b and the infield back.

any sacrifice bunt...or fly.

Any ball in play that moves runners or scores runners.

Sometimes people make errors on balls that are put in play.

Generally speaking strikeouts do nothing positive for you except in the rarest of circumstances.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 03:46 PM
Strikeouts are not productive. Other kinds of outs can be, such as:

A moderately deep flyball with less than 2 outs and a guy on 3b.

A GB to the right side with a guy on 2b and no one out.

a GB to the middle infield with a guy on 3b and the infield back.

any sacrifice bunt...or fly.

Any ball in play that moves runners or scores runners.

Sometimes people make errors on balls that are put in play.

Generally speaking strikeouts do nothing positive for you except in the rarest of circumstances.

I will argue a guy with an OBP in the .380ish range and a OPS over .900 is plenty productive enough to offset the strike outs. OK, ideally, whenever he'd make an out it would be a productive, move the runners over, rah! rah! kind of stuff, but you're making the guy sound like a Juan Pierre duplicate. You can't be striking out all the time if you've got no power and just slap the ball around the infield. You can afford to strike out if you're a major power threat and you're still getting on base 35-40% of the time.

Ultimately, outs are outs and no matter what, they're bad. If your argument is going to center around you want to find guys who make more productive outs than others, well then, you're missing the forest for the trees.

asindc
06-30-2010, 03:46 PM
Strikeouts are not productive. Other kinds of outs can be, such as:

A moderately deep flyball with less than 2 outs and a guy on 3b.

A GB to the right side with a guy on 2b and no one out.

a GB to the middle infield with a guy on 3b and the infield back.

any sacrifice bunt...or fly.

Any ball in play that moves runners or scores runners.

Sometimes people make errors on balls that are put in play.

Generally speaking strikeouts do nothing positive for you except in the rarest of circumstances.

The only positive result from a strikeout that I can think of is that it sometimes avoids a double play. Otherwise, I don't see any benefit.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 03:47 PM
The only positive result from a strikeout that I can think of is that it sometimes avoids a double play. Otherwise, I don't see any benefit.

Also, generally speaking, makes the pitcher work more.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 04:08 PM
Ticket sales go up just based on him being a future hall-of-famer. Japanese billboards go up. Nintendo/Nikon/Canon/Sony etc. dump money into the Cell. Crazy money would come in if they made the playoffs his first year. This whole town would be eating sushi.

Hard to quantify an amount - but it would surely be more than the 5-7 mil a year difference between him and Adam Dunn.
Let's assume Dunn will be a rental. Best case scenario, he contributes to a playoff berth and then he walks away as a Type A netting us two picks, thus making up for the prospects lost. We would have paid only half of his salary which is about 6 mil. If Dunn plays like crap down the road for us, then he walks away costing us only 6 mil and prospects but we will have the compensation picks to make up for the lost prospects at least. So, all in all, Dunn is only a $6 mil gamble.

Ichiro would not be a rental because 1) it would take A LOT more to pry him from Mariners and 2) he's signed to a huge contract that ends after 2012. Best case scenario, same as Dunn's except we don't get compensation picks. Worst case scenario, Ichiro isn't as productive as he could be, we don't make the postseason and now we are on hook $32 mil minus whatever the marketing crap will get us. We don't get to replenish our farm with compensation draft picks nor do we get salary relief. That's a HUGE risky gamble compared to Dunn.

Strikeouts are not productive. Other kinds of outs can be, such as:

A moderately deep flyball with less than 2 outs and a guy on 3b.

A GB to the right side with a guy on 2b and no one out.

a GB to the middle infield with a guy on 3b and the infield back.

any sacrifice bunt...or fly.

Any ball in play that moves runners or scores runners.

Sometimes people make errors on balls that are put in play.

Generally speaking strikeouts do nothing positive for you except in the rarest of circumstances.
Ugh, I remember researching about this topic and coming to the conclusion strikeouts on their own are neither beneficial nor detrimental to offensive production. IMHO, it's all too situational to say putting balls in play is better than striking out and vice versa. On one end of the spectrum, you got a guy like Yuniesky Betancourt who rarely strikes out and puts the ball in play, but still manages to suck. On the other end, you have Jack Cust, who whiffs a lot, walks a bit but can't hit well enough to justify his K's. Nowadays, it's hard to find guys that don't strike out whilst hitting a lot of homeruns. In fact, I can only think of one guy and he should not be treated as being in the same realm as any other hitters in the league.

Chipol
06-30-2010, 04:13 PM
The only problem is that the Nationals appear to want at least two legit prospects, probably more, as they can get at least that by letting him walk and collecting picks. I don't see the Phillies thinking Bobby's value is anywhere near that much.

Probably true. I just picked the Phils because of the rumors that they liked Bobby. Maybe there is another team desperate for a proven closer. To do a trade, you need to provide value for value, and ideally you can trade from strength to fill a weakness. Looking at our assets, the bullpen is the only place I see a strength we could afford to trade from.

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 04:31 PM
Please tell this to the 2002 Anaheim Angels. #1 in hits - tied for 23rd in HRs
Welp, that settles it. That one team is proof.

balke
06-30-2010, 04:47 PM
Welp, that settles it. That one team is proof.

I'm the realist who says you need BALANCE - homeruns and hits (And pitching and defense) to win. The Sox have HR's already. #7 in HRs #24 in hits.

This team will NOT win if they hit below .250 all season.

And yeah, when someone says "HRs win championships" (as if its the only way to do it) and I show a direct example of why that is not true - that's called proof.

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm the realist who says you need BALANCE - homeruns and hits (And pitching and defense) to win. The Sox have HR's already. #7 in HRs #24 in hits.

This team will NOT win if they hit below .250 all season.

And yeah, when someone says "HRs win championships" (as if its the only way to do it) and I show a direct example of why that is not true - that's called proof.


I agreed with you.

I would take players like Ichrio, Carl Crawford, and Andre Ethier over guys similar to Dunn any day of the week

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm the realist who says you need BALANCE - homeruns and hits (And pitching and defense) to win. The Sox have HR's already. #7 in HRs #24 in hits.

This team will NOT win if they hit below .250 all season.

And yeah, when someone says "HRs win championships" (as if its the only way to do it) and I show a direct example of why that is not true - that's called proof.

I'd say the Angels were an outlier.

kittle42
06-30-2010, 04:57 PM
I would take players like Ichrio, Carl Crawford, and Andre Ethier over guys similar to Dunn any day of the week

So would I, but the problem is they aren't coming here. I'd take Pujols, too, but why open that up for discussion?

We are talking about the merits of bringing in Dunn, who is openly on the market. To respond with, "What we need is Ichiro" is pointless.

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 05:03 PM
So would I, but the problem is they aren't coming here. I'd take Pujols, too, but why open that up for discussion?

We are talking about the merits of bringing in Dunn, who is openly on the market. To respond with, "What we need is Ichiro" is pointless.

talking about the style of player I'd rather have. I hope that KW will bring a player in that gives the Sox more balance.

kittle42
06-30-2010, 05:04 PM
talking about the style of player I'd rather have. I hope that KW will bring a player in that gives the Sox more balance.

Who is out there, except possibly - possibly - Crawford, for whom the Sox almost certainly would be outbid?

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 05:09 PM
Who is out there, except possibly - possibly - Crawford, for whom the Sox almost certainly would be outbid?


maybe David DeJesus

doublem23
06-30-2010, 05:29 PM
talking about the style of player I'd rather have. I hope that KW will bring a player in that gives the Sox more balance.

Uh, the Sox are also 11th and 9th in the American League in OBP and SLG. Focusing in on one stat and ignoring everything else is basically the antithesis of balance.

More than anything else, this team needs a power bat DH.

Zisk77
06-30-2010, 05:34 PM
I will argue a guy with an OBP in the .380ish range and a OPS over .900 is plenty productive enough to offset the strike outs. OK, ideally, whenever he'd make an out it would be a productive, move the runners over, rah! rah! kind of stuff, but you're making the guy sound like a Juan Pierre duplicate. You can't be striking out all the time if you've got no power and just slap the ball around the infield. You can afford to strike out if you're a major power threat and you're still getting on base 35-40% of the time.

Ultimately, outs are outs and no matter what, they're bad. If your argument is going to center around you want to find guys who make more productive outs than others, well then, you're missing the forest for the trees.


I'm not making that argument at all. You asked whats the difference between K's vs. other types of outs. I answered you. I'm not even arguing that this is reason for not acquiring Dunn. I simply stated the obvious. For Example last night, if Juan Pierre would have K'd instead of going out 3 UA we would have not scored our 3rd run so not all kinds of outs are equivalent.

For the record though:

I wasn't in favor of acquiring Dunn in the offseason when better FA hitters were available like Matsui and Abreu.

or cheaper/lesser versions of Dunn...Thome when Dunn would be more expensive and cost us prospects.

Since we did not acquire Any DH I am in favor of trading for one now and Dunn would be good... but I would not trade Hudson for him. Adrian Gonzalez yes, Dunn, no.

There maybe other candidates I like better than Dunn and they may be RH hitters.

Ichiro is not available, and would cost us too much in $ and prospects.

Ichiro does not fulfill ou DH needs but lets face it he is a hall of famer that meets more needs than one...leadoff hitter, GG rf defender and runner deterrent with his arm. And TCQ would then move to DH. But we might as well be wishing for Ted Williams in his prime to come back, its almost as likely.

Zisk77
06-30-2010, 05:37 PM
The only positive result from a strikeout that I can think of is that it sometimes avoids a double play. Otherwise, I don't see any benefit.

I said rarest of circumstances because someone might suggest the ridiculousness of a wp 3rd strike or dropped 3rd strike where the catcher throws down the rf line.:scratch:

I still have flash backs of Donn Pall K-ing Jack Clark on a 3-2 splitter with 2 outs and the bases loaded that went to the backstop.:mad:

cards press box
06-30-2010, 05:42 PM
I agreed with you.

I would take players like Ichrio, Carl Crawford, and Andre Ethier over guys similar to Dunn any day of the week

Ichiro would be an outstanding addition to any team, including the Sox. But I cannot imagine Seattle moving him.

Who is out there, except possibly - possibly - Crawford, for whom the Sox almost certainly would be outbid?

Lance Berkman may be available. In 63 games this year, he has hit .248 with 7 HR and 34 RBI and a .355 OBP. Berkman's career average is .297 with a .410 OBP and he has 320 career homers. The cost in talent to acquire Berkman should not be as high it would be the acquire the younger Adam Dunn.

I've always thought that Berkman is an excellent hitter and a change of scenery into a pennant race could be just the tonic he needs to finish this season strong. I think that Berkman would help the Sox.

balke
06-30-2010, 05:48 PM
There's an outside chance on Helton too. Sox might have to wait on that one though - see if Colorado falls a few more games out. Helton is historically a 2nd half player.

The last 3 years post all-star break: .329 avg .427 obp .485 slg .912 OPS

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 05:51 PM
I'm the realist who says you need BALANCE - homeruns and hits (And pitching and defense) to win. The Sox have HR's already. #7 in HRs #24 in hits.
Bring in a singles hitter and we end up #16 in hits. Well congratulations, Sox, you are still 7th in homeruns and slight below average in hits. Sure, it's balanced out now but we are still not good enough in both areas.

And yeah, when someone says "HRs win championships" (as if its the only way to do it) and I show a direct example of why that is not true - that's called proof.
If someone states, "All championships are won with only homeruns." and you bring up the 2002 Angels, then the 2002 Angels are a counterexample to the statement. So yes, it's a proof to your argument that HRs alone do not win championships and that someone who stated as such is just being an idiot. However, I don't think anybody here is saying that. They are just saying homeruns (a.k.a. power) has bigger impact on team's performances than hits, which IIRC has been shown to be correct in the past.

I agreed with you.

I would take players like Ichrio, Carl Crawford, and Andre Ethier over guys similar to Dunn any day of the week
It's unfair to compare them to Dunn because these guys are talents that are very difficult to find. If Dunn was on these guys' level, he wouldn't be on the trading block. Let's try to keep comparisons more reasonable because those three guys are keepers for their respective teams.

Rockabilly
06-30-2010, 05:51 PM
There's an outside chance on Helton too. Sox might have to wait on that one though - see if Colorado falls a few more games out. Helton is historically a 2nd half player.

The last 3 years post all-star break: .329 avg .427 obp .485 slg .912 OPS

Helton would be a nice pick up. I'd still rather see a guy who can steal bases,hit for a high avg and plays a great defense

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 05:56 PM
Helton would be a nice pick up. I'd still rather see a guy who can steal bases,hit for a high avg and plays a great defense
I sure love me some .318 sluggin' first basemen. Now we're talkin'!

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 05:57 PM
Also, all of the arguments against Dunn are so stupid they're making me think he might actually be a good acquisition.

balke
06-30-2010, 06:14 PM
Also, all of the arguments against Dunn are so stupid they're making me think he might actually be a good acquisition.

Hehe... you're one who said "look to Colorado" for lefty bats. Who were you talking about Giambi?

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 06:16 PM
Helton would be a nice pick up. I'd still rather see a guy who can steal bases,hit for a high avg and plays a great defense
Whoa, he sure sounds like a fantastic centerfielder! Oh wait, he's a first baseman...Let's break down why Helton is a bad fit:
1) "steal bases" - Got Pierre, TCM and Rios for that. Don't need it.
2) "hit for a high avg" - What's his OPS? AVG means little.
3) "plays a great defense" - First base defense is not that important.
If Rockies are the one paying the deferred salary, Helton might be a decent stop gap for Viciedo if Sox don't resign Paulie but Paulie is here to stay and we need a guy who can actually mash the ball regardless of his glove.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 06:20 PM
Hehe... you're one who said "look to Colorado" for lefty bats. Who were you talking about Giambi?
Brad Hawpe ring a bell? They have a bit of logjam in the outfield. His name might come up in a few rumours here and there.

Coops4Aces
06-30-2010, 06:26 PM
Whoa, he sure sounds like a fantastic centerfielder! Oh wait, he's a first baseman...Let's break down why Helton is a bad fit:
1) "steal bases" - Got Pierre, TCM and Rios for that. Don't need it.
2) "hit for a high avg" - What's his OPS? AVG means little.
3) "plays a great defense" - First base defense is not that important.
If Rockies are the one paying the deferred salary, Helton might be a decent stop gap for Viciedo if Sox don't resign Paulie but Paulie is here to stay and we need a guy who can actually mash the ball regardless of his glove.

Please never give TCM as an example for a good base stealer ever again. Thanks :smile:

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 06:33 PM
Please never give TCM as an example for a good base stealer ever again. Thanks :smile:
Well I had a feeling someone was gonna pick on that. I was thinking more along the lines of guys with speed and TCM's got the speed. Besides, he's swiped 10+ bags each season in so far - Helton never swiped more than 7 in a single season. TCM has the potential to be a decent base runner with more experience.

Zisk77
06-30-2010, 06:36 PM
Just now on Chicago tribune Live they were discussing trading TCQ for Dunn...What??!!!

Now I'm not suggesting debating who you rather have, but why would either team do that?

In my estimation we are at least one bat short. making that trade would still make us one bat short.

Why would the nationals want a guy who is injury prone with high upside but high bust ability whose arb. clock has been going?

I could see the nats wanting Hudson, Beckham, Viciedo, Flowers, etc...but TCQ.

Domeshot17
06-30-2010, 06:37 PM
Carl Crawford doesn't get this team to the playoffs. Dunn, Berkman, those are lineup changers in the mold of what we lack.

Zisk77
06-30-2010, 06:41 PM
Ichiro would be an outstanding addition to any team, including the Sox. But I cannot imagine Seattle moving him.



Lance Berkman may be available. In 63 games this year, he has hit .248 with 7 HR and 34 RBI and a .355 OBP. Berkman's career average is .297 with a .410 OBP and he has 320 career homers. The cost in talent to acquire Berkman should not be as high it would be the acquire the younger Adam Dunn.

I've always thought that Berkman is an excellent hitter and a change of scenery into a pennant race could be just the tonic he needs to finish this season strong. I think that Berkman would help the Sox.

Berkman is also coming off injury and may hit better as he gets healthier...its a risk but maybe worth it...Carlos Lee may be available as well.

I've had a thought that may allow us to acquire 2 big bats. I figure Toronto while good, is in the wrong division and will be sellers soon. Bautista is having a career year but is not a stud player. One good prospect could probably pry him loose (and be an overpayment). He could play 3b or corner OF. And we still could acquire a DH...like Berkman or someone else....Thoughts?

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 06:47 PM
Hehe... you're one who said "look to Colorado" for lefty bats. Who were you talking about Giambi?
lol

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 06:47 PM
Berkman is also coming off injury and may hit better as he gets healthier...its a risk but maybe worth it...Carlos Lee may be available as well.

I've had a thought that may allow us to acquire 2 big bats. I figure Toronto while good, is in the wrong division and will be sellers soon. Bautista is having a career year but is not a stud player. One good prospect could probably pry him loose (and be an overpayment). He could play 3b or corner OF. And we still could acquire a DH...like Berkman or someone else....Thoughts?
That's an interesting thinking outside of the box but no thanks. Bautista is playing way better than what he's usually capable of. He's too susceptible to regression.

Zisk77
06-30-2010, 06:59 PM
That's an interesting thinking outside of the box but no thanks. Bautista is playing way better than what he's usually capable of. He's too susceptible to regression.

I agree but is he a good gamble for a rental?

tm1119
06-30-2010, 07:16 PM
So giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, and removing Dayan, Flowers, Hudson, Morel, and Mitchell from the discussions do we have enough to get Dunn? Remember that even if there are no other suitors we still have to do better than the 2 picks the Nats would get if they let Dunn walk in the offseason.

Hitters- Danks, Gilmore, Short, Phelgey, Thompson,
Pitchers- Doyle, Torres, Shirek, Nunez, Holmberg, Rodriguez, Infante

Let them choose any 3 of them and hope its good enough? Ehh, doesnt look very good to me. Who is the most tradeable(if thats a word) to us out of the 5 I mentioned in the 1st paragraph? And would you include that person for Dunn?

Craig Grebeck
06-30-2010, 07:19 PM
So giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, and removing Dayan, Flowers, Hudson, Morel, and Mitchell from the discussions do we have enough to get Dunn? Remember that even if there are no other suitors we still have to do better than the 2 picks the Nats would get if they let Dunn walk in the offseason.

Hitters- Danks, Gilmore, Short, Phelgey, Thompson,
Pitchers- Doyle, Torres, Shirek, Nunez, Holmberg, Rodriguez, Infante

Let them choose any 3 of them and hope its good enough? Ehh, doesnt look very good to me. Who is the most tradeable(if thats a word) to us out of the 5 I mentioned in the 1st paragraph? And would you include that person for Dunn?
Not enough in the system.

Pablo_Honey
06-30-2010, 07:42 PM
I agree but is he a good gamble for a rental?
He would have been nice as a rental if it weren't for Teahen. Considering we're stuck with Teahen for another 2 years after this one, we will have to let him play when he gets back and see if he can play up to his "potential." Otherwise, we are paying too much money for a bench warmer.

tm1119
06-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Not enough in the system.

Kinda what I figured. And the problem is that Morel may the most tradebale of our "top prospects" and they already have Zimmerman at 3B long term. Cant imagine us trading Hudson, Flowers, or Mitchel for a rental so that would leave Dayan as our only other chip that might get it done for Dunn. Not sure whether it would be worth it or not to be honest. We may be better off exploring other less options closer to the deadline for cheap.

Hitmen77
06-30-2010, 11:02 PM
I find the anti-Adam Dunn crusade quite amusing, particularly when the concern is giving up such amazing guaranteed future stars as Hudson and Flowers.

Nothing has beaten the notion that Branyan gives you just as much production yet, though.

The thing about Hudson is that I wouldn't be at all surprised if we need him at some point this season. There's still a lot of baseball left and there's always a risk of a starting pitcher going down. A couple of weeks ago, Ozzie was ready to DL Peavy with his sore shoulder. Last year, Danks (finger) and Floyd (hip) lost some time due to injury. Freddy has been great, but can he last the entire season?

I'm not saying we're assured to lose one of these guys, but it's a very plausible scenario. There's a lot of games left to go to count on all 5 starters continuing without some going down at some point.

Is Hudson "guaranteed" to succeed? Of course not. But I like the idea that he's available. After him, it's a huge drop off to Carlos Torres.

....and no, I'm not "anti Dunn".

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 08:36 AM
So now the Nationals are turning around and asking the Sox about Quentin? That's, um, counterproductive Mr. Rizzo.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 08:39 AM
So now the Nationals are turning around and asking the Sox about Quentin? That's, um, counterproductive Mr. Rizzo.
Counterproductive for the Sox, perhaps, but when you've got no minor league depth it's not very easy to negotiate. We have no tradeable outfield prospects. That's what they want and need.

soltrain21
07-01-2010, 08:42 AM
Counterproductive for the Sox, perhaps, but when you've got no minor league depth it's not very easy to negotiate. We have no tradeable outfield prospects. That's what they want and need.

Oh I know that - I just don't see the Nats ACTUALLY thinking we'd do that.

Craig Grebeck
07-01-2010, 08:43 AM
Oh I know that - I just don't see the Nats ACTUALLY thinking we'd do that.
That probably doesn't bother them. There will be more teams in on Dunn, and every one of those teams will be a better trading partner.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2010, 08:57 AM
If he wanted a big bat KW should have signed one last offseason. Trading away valuable assets due to mid-season desperation only compounds the mistake of not doing so in the first place. It's one thing if you have to do it because of injury, slump or unforseeable circumstance but our current situation is a surprise to no one.

balke
07-01-2010, 09:03 AM
If the Nats are inquiring about TCQ - maybe the Sox could try and pry away Zimmerman instead. Send prospects and one of our 3Bman with TCQ that way.

Probably a pipe dream - but you never know.

Tragg
07-01-2010, 09:12 AM
I ask again.

How can we not have enough to rent Dunn (he requires real prospects) but if we traded Konerko, he would have brought very little.

Domeshot17
07-01-2010, 09:16 AM
I ask again.

How can we not have enough to rent Dunn (he requires real prospects) but if we traded Konerko, he would have brought very little.

Adam Dunn is a type A lock, Konerko is likely type A. Offering Dunn compensation won't bite you, he will get a multi year deal...Konerko could very well accept arbitration. Dunn is a lot younger, so you have the shot to resign him, Konerko is a true rental. Dunn has been a much more productive player over the last few years, outside this recent resurge by Konerko this year.

balke
07-01-2010, 09:42 AM
I ask again.

How can we not have enough to rent Dunn (he requires real prospects) but if we traded Konerko, he would have brought very little.

The answer is Konerko would've brought something nice back. He does sit at type B right now though and is older. He can field his position though - is a leader - and has won a title and hit in the playoffs.

I'm not sure who would get more in a trade. Depends what team and what the situation is. If it were NL teams needing a 1Bman - Konerko would likely get more in return.

The Sox have enough to get Dunn - but they would be overpaying with some of the prospects. The Sox don't have OFers and probably shouldn't give up Hudson with their future pitching situation.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm not sure who would get more in a trade. Depends what team and what the situation is. If it were NL teams needing a 1Bman - Konerko would likely get more in return.

Uh, no.

I love Paul as much as the next guy, but he doesn't fetch near the catch Dunn would. Not even close. I know you have your own little theories that STRIKEOUTS ARE THE SINGLE WORST THING IN THE WHOLE WORLD, but I doubt that's reflective of what the majority of baseball fans and executives think.

Hitmen77
07-01-2010, 10:01 AM
If he wanted a big bat KW should have signed one last offseason. Trading away valuable assets due to mid-season desperation only compounds the mistake of not doing so in the first place. It's one thing if you have to do it because of injury, slump or unforseeable circumstance but our current situation is a surprise to no one.

I totally agree. Leaving a main offensive spot in the lineup to people who aren't good enough to start on most teams.....and then scrambling to unload what few good prospects we have in desperation to get a bat in July is a terrible plan.

....and like you said, our current situation is a surprise to no one.

balke
07-01-2010, 10:03 AM
Uh, no.

I love Paul as much as the next guy, but he doesn't fetch near the catch Dunn would. Not even close. I know you have your own little theories that STRIKEOUTS ARE THE SINGLE WORST THING IN THE WHOLE WORLD, but I doubt that's reflective of what the majority of baseball fans and executives think.


Okay - I'll have to believe you because you said so.

I'm not worried about K's as much as he doesn't hit. I think Billy Beane can take his OBP and shove it.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 10:10 AM
Okay - I'll have to believe you because you said so.

I'm not worried about K's as much as he doesn't hit. I think Billy Beane can take his OBP and shove it.

Yeah, why would you want to find out how often a guy gets on base? What kind of useless knowledge is that?

BTW, OBP isn't a "Billy Beane" creation, you realize baseball executives have been using that stat since the 1940s, right? You know the guy who created, Branch Rickey, is widely considered one of the greatest baseball minds in the history of the game? You know, even he saw back than that solely using BA as a tool to evaluate players offensively was severely deficient.

Anyways, if you honestly think Konerko would draw as much as Dunn, I'm sure I can't prove otherwise to you, so I'll just end my comment with a hearty laugh.

:kneeslap:

balke
07-01-2010, 10:14 AM
Yeah, why would you want to find out how often a guy gets on base? What kind of useless knowledge is that?

BTW, OBP isn't a "Billy Beane" creation, you realize baseball executives have been using that stat since the 1940s, right? You know the guy who created, Branch Rickey, is widely considered one of the greatest baseball minds in the history of the game? You know, even he saw back than that solely using BA as a tool to evaluate players offensively was severely deficient.

Anyways, if you honestly think Konerko would draw as much as Dunn, I'm sure I can't prove otherwise to you, so I'll just end my comment with a hearty laugh.

:kneeslap:


surely.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2010, 10:26 AM
Yeah, why would you want to find out how often a guy gets on base? What kind of useless knowledge is that?

BTW, OBP isn't a "Billy Beane" creation, you realize baseball executives have been using that stat since the 1940s, right?


Yes he did. Didn't you know that Hawk Harrelson came up with the phrase "Ball 4-Basehit" after reading Moneyball?

Pablo_Honey
07-01-2010, 10:43 AM
Yes he did. Didn't you know that Hawk Harrelson came up with the phrase "Ball 4-Basehit" after reading Moneyball?
Moneyball merely made general baseball fans aware of the importance of OBP and OPS. It's not like everyone back in the day just hacked away at every pitch. Truly outstanding hitters were known for their ability to draw walks and hit for power. So, if OBP is a new creation, then why were those hitters drawing walks? Yes, Moneyball did bring that idea into the mainstream spotlight but the book even says that Billy Beane wasn't the first one to "revolutionize" baseball thinking. Besides, many people credit Sandy Alderson as the true origin of Moneyball.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Yes he did. Didn't you know that Hawk Harrelson came up with the phrase "Ball 4-Basehit" after reading Moneyball?

Wait, I can't tell, are you arguing that Beane did invent OBP?

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2010, 11:14 AM
Wait, I can't tell, are you arguing that Beane did invent OBP?

No, sorry I thought it was obvious that I was mocking that notion.

Even an old fart like Hawk is aware that a walk is a good result thus
"Ball4-basehit". It's evidence that people have probably been saying that on baseball diamonds for ages.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 11:16 AM
No, sorry I thought it was obvious that I was mocking that notion.

Even an old fart like Hawk is aware that a walk is a good result thus
"Ball4-basehit". And I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with Billy Beane.

Gotcha, I assumed you were, but without the vocal and facial hints, sometimes sarcasm can be hard to detect over this medium.

Lillian
07-01-2010, 11:18 AM
The assumption has been that, if the Sox couldn’t get back in the pennant race, that they would be sellers in the trade market. Now that they’re in the race, the assumption is that they need to be buyers. So they have quickly switched from being a team that should trade away expensive veterans for young prospects, to a team that should trade prospects for a soon to be free agent.

This shift to the buyer’s mode is somewhat problematical for the Sox. To begin with, they don’t really have a deep enough farm system to afford the luxury of trading away their few good prospects. Moreover, they don’t have enough payroll flexibility to take on any really big, long term contracts. Therefore, if they trade for someone like Dunn, Fielder or Gonzales, they will almost certainly be simply renting a player.

Why not consider trading away one or two veterans to a contender, in exchange for the single most glaring void in the entire organization? The one type of player that they lack on both the 40 man roster, and the lower Minor Leagues, is a left-handed impact bat. The Sox have sufficient depth in pitching to afford them the luxury of trading either one starter, one reliever, or even both, for a young, affordable, power hitting left-handed bat?

Pitching is probably the most valuable and coveted trading chip to have when dealing with contending teams. There are always teams that need one more starter, or reliever, in order to make a run at the post season. Those teams will often be desperate enough to trade away promising young talent.

Therefore, why not trade with a buyer, instead of a seller?
Garcia, Buerhle and Jenks would be the best candidates. If the Sox were to trade either Garcia or Buerhle, Hudson could fill that spot. If they trade Jenks, they already have Santos, Thornton, Putz and will be adding Sale.

So, what contending team, in need of pitching, has a very promising young left handed power hitter, who is ready to be promoted to the Big Leagues? Perhaps someone blocked by another player in the organization.

Maybe the Sox could even acquire someone with some Major League experience, but very little service time. Isn’t dealing from strength, to fill the greatest need, while actually reducing payroll, better than giving up prospects for a “rent a player”?

TomBradley72
07-01-2010, 11:29 AM
The assumption has been that, if the Sox couldn’t get back in the pennant race, that they would be sellers in the trade market. Now that they’re in the race, the assumption is that they need to be buyers. So they have quickly switched from being a team that should trade away expensive veterans for young prospects, to a team that should trade prospects for a soon to be free agent.

This shift to the buyer’s mode is somewhat problematical for the Sox. To begin with, they don’t really have a deep enough farm system to afford the luxury of trading away their few good prospects. Moreover, they don’t have enough payroll flexibility to take on any really big, long term contracts. Therefore, if they trade for someone like Dunn, Fielder or Gonzales, they will almost certainly be simply renting a player.

Why not consider trading away one or two veterans to a contender, in exchange for the single most glaring void in the entire organization? The one type of player that they lack on both the 40 man roster, and the lower Minor Leagues, is a left-handed impact bat. The Sox have sufficient depth in pitching to afford them the luxury of trading either one starter, one reliever, or even both, for a young, affordable, power hitting left-handed bat?

Pitching is probably the most valuable and coveted trading chip to have when dealing with contending teams. There are always teams that need one more starter, or reliever, in order to make a run at the post season. Those teams will often be desperate enough to trade away promising young talent.

Therefore, why not trade with a buyer, instead of a seller?
Garcia, Buerhle and Jenks would be the best candidates. If the Sox were to trade either Garcia or Buerhle, Hudson could fill that spot. If they trade Jenks, they already have Santos, Thornton, Putz and will be adding Sale.

So, what contending team, in need of pitching, has a very promising young left handed power hitter, who is ready to be promoted to the Big Leagues? Perhaps someone blocked by another player in the organization.

Maybe the Sox could even acquire someone with some Major League experience, but very little service time. Isn’t dealing from strength, to fill the greatest need, while actually reducing payroll, better than giving up prospects for a “rent a player”?

With Peavy's shoulder I would want to keep our rotation intact in the event he goes down and we need Hudson to plug the hole.

I wouldn't touch the bullpen...it's a core strength and could make a huge difference in the stretch run. I'd take Teahen/Viciedo as an upgrade over Kotsay before I'd dump pitching to get Dunn for the last 2.5 months of the season.

Our horrible farm system + letting go a bargain like Thome has us boxed into a corner. Self inflicted wounds are painful.

Lillian
07-01-2010, 11:35 AM
With Peavy's shoulder I would want to keep our rotation intact in the event he goes down and we need Hudson to plug the hole.

I wouldn't touch the bullpen...it's a core strength and could make a huge difference in the stretch run. I'd take Teahen/Viciedo as an upgrade over Kotsay before I'd dump pitching to get Dunn for the last 2.5 months of the season.

Our horrible farm system + letting go a bargain like Thome has us boxed into a corner. Self inflicted wounds are painful.

Like you, I wouldn't trade pitching to rent Dunn for 2.5 months.
However, that's not what I advocated. To reiterate, I'm talking about a young player with little MLB service time.

doublem23
07-01-2010, 11:39 AM
With Peavy's shoulder I would want to keep our rotation intact in the event he goes down and we need Hudson to plug the hole.

I wouldn't touch the bullpen...it's a core strength and could make a huge difference in the stretch run. I'd take Teahen/Viciedo as an upgrade over Kotsay before I'd dump pitching to get Dunn for the last 2.5 months of the season.

Our horrible farm system + letting go a bargain like Thome has us boxed into a corner. Self inflicted wounds are painful.

Here's the question, though, if you're keeping Hudson as Peavy/Garcia insurance, does that even matter if the Sox aren't good enough to compete for a World Series without Dunn? I'm not sold they are. So if we deal Hudson for Dunn, we're effectively rolling the dice that one of our starters doesn't go down, but at least there's an end result with the Sox being a legitimate championship contender (if, of course, that's your opinion). If we acquire Dunn, and we assume he bolts this off-season for the greener, DH-less pastures of the National League, then we likely end up with better prospects anyway, since the compensation picks will likely yield 2 players as good, if not better, than our boy Hudson.

Just a thought. Of course, a lot of this revolves around how much better you think Dunn makes this team. But I'm not sure the conservative play is a good one when you're not in a good position as of today.

TomBradley72
07-01-2010, 11:40 AM
Like you, I wouldn't trade pitching to rent Dunn for 2.5 months.
However, that's not what I advocated. To reiterate, I'm talking about a young player with little MLB service time.

If we had ANY depth in our organization for pitching I'd be with you..but if it means a rotation starter or one of our prime bullpen arms (Jenks/Putz/Thornton/Santos) I don't think we can afford to weaken our pitching for the incremental offense a new hitter will bring over what Teahen/Viciedo will bring at the DH slot.

Domeshot17
07-01-2010, 11:50 AM
one guy I bet we could Jake Peavy (trade for by absorbing most his salary) is Lance Berkman. After a bad May coming off knee surgery, he had a solid June (278 average, OPS just under 800). He isn't a 40 home run bat anymore, but in our park, I bet that OPS would jump to about 850. Also, given his surgery, DH'ing might be a good road for him.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2010, 11:58 AM
one guy I bet we could Jake Peavy (trade for by absorbing most his salary) is Lance Berkman. After a bad May coming off knee surgery, he had a solid June (278 average, OPS just under 800). He isn't a 40 home run bat anymore, but in our park, I bet that OPS would jump to about 850. Also, given his surgery, DH'ing might be a good road for him.

In your description of Jake Peavy you forgot to include the part about giving up valuable young arms.

Pablo_Honey
07-01-2010, 12:06 PM
In your description of Jake Peavy you forgot to include the part about giving up valuable young arms.
The only valuable young arm we lost was Richard but he's already 26 and his value was at its peak when we traded him. Poreda can only throw fastballs, which had suspect velocity. IIRC, Padres sent him to bullpen down in the minors. Carter is a project and there is no telling what he might become. Right now, he seems to have a looooong way to go. Russell is...um...a tall guy.

Pablo_Honey
07-01-2010, 12:16 PM
However, that's not what I advocated. To reiterate, I'm talking about a young player with little MLB service time.
If such a player could contribute to an MLB club right away, he would not come cheaply. I understand your point but there really isn't a valuable guy on the current team who we would want to trade away. Paulie? We need his bat. Jenks? No, we don't wanna see more of Pena, Linebrink and Threets. Buehrle? Never had much trading value and he's franchise. Trading prospects makes a lot more sense because we can replenish the farm through draft and there is no guarantee the prospects are gonna pan out. Last thing we want is Hudson struggling down the road after we trade Buehrle. Then we are in trouble.

TomBradley72
07-01-2010, 12:36 PM
What about a more "bargain" type alternative vs. Dunn? Luke Scott on Baltimore, LH hitter, looks like a mid-20's HR guy, hits in the .260/.270 range.

(nevermind, just saw he might go on the 15 day DL due to a pulled hamstring that happened during a home run trot.)

KMcMahon817
07-01-2010, 02:04 PM
That probably doesn't bother them. There will be more teams in on Dunn, and every one of those teams will be a better trading partner.

Just curious, weren't you in the "Paulie won't get us anything halfway decent in return" bandwagon?

Domeshot17
07-01-2010, 02:19 PM
In your description of Jake Peavy you forgot to include the part about giving up valuable young arms.

At the time they were not very valuable. Richard was viewed as nothing more than a back end SP, Russell was a fringe reliever, Poreda was going to be nothing and Carter was a younnnggg prosect. The value in the Sox deal was taking the contract. Look at what Cliff Lee and Halladay brought in trades, we gave up, at the time, nothing like that. The difference is Richard got some quality coaching and has pitched well (although probably mostly thanks to the pitchers park he is in).

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 02:22 PM
At the time they were not very valuable. Richard was viewed as nothing more than a back end SP, Russell was a fringe reliever, Poreda was going to be nothing and Carter was a younnnggg prosect. The value in the Sox deal was taking the contract. Look at what Cliff Lee and Halladay brought in trades, we gave up, at the time, nothing like that. The difference is Richard got some quality coaching and has pitched well (although probably mostly thanks to the pitchers park he is in).

Just for the record, his splits don't say that

Domeshot17
07-01-2010, 02:23 PM
Just for the record, his splits don't say that

They may not, I didn't look them up, just gut feeling says Clayton Richard isn't talented enough to keep up a sub 3 era for a season. I could be very wrong, kid had a great work ethic, but he just seems like a guy who could really benefit from the NL and a pitchers park.

Coops4Aces
07-01-2010, 02:25 PM
They may not, I didn't look them up, just gut feeling says Clayton Richard isn't talented enough to keep up a sub 3 era for a season. I could be very wrong, kid had a great work ethic, but he just seems like a guy who could really benefit from the NL and a pitchers park.

I agree. I was shocked when I looked at his splits. I figured his road ERA would be in the 3s at least

His SO/BB ratio, SO/9, WHIP, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS against are all much better at home, yet his Home ERA is 3.02 and his Road ERA is 2.29 :dunno: