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LITTLE NELL
06-27-2010, 09:45 AM
With a lot of PK talk going on I was thinking that the trading of Mike Cameron for Paulie just might be the 3rd best trade in Sox history after the Nellie Fox trade and the Billy Pierce trade.
The Richie Allen trade was good but he was only here 3 years.
Shoeless Joe Jackson was also a good trade but he was banned for being an idiot.

HomeFish
06-27-2010, 09:50 AM
The White Flag trade looked like it was going to be huge for a while.

I'm still a fan of the Borchard for Thornton trade, it's probably my favorite Sox trade of the last decade.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 09:51 AM
With a lot of PK talk going on I was thinking that the trading of Mike Cameron for Paulie just might be the 3rd best trade in Sox history after the Nellie Fox trade and the Billy Pierce trade.
The Richie Allen trade was good but he was only here 3 years.
Shoeless Joe Jackson was also a good trade but he was banned for being an idiot.

Mike Cameron had a really good career, and was one of the better defenders at CF in the league. I'm glad we had Paulie, and he's certainly the better offensive player, but that was by no means a one-sided trade.

voodoochile
06-27-2010, 09:55 AM
Mike Cameron had a really good career, and was one of the better defenders at CF in the league. I'm glad we had Paulie, and he's certainly the better offensive player, but that was by no means a one-sided trade.

Sure take enough steroids, anyone can look competent...

That McCarthy for Danks trade isn't looking so bad and Freddie for Floyd is looking alright too.

LITTLE NELL
06-27-2010, 09:59 AM
Mike Cameron had a really good career, and was one of the better defenders at CF in the league. I'm glad we had Paulie, and he's certainly the better offensive player, but that was by no means a one-sided trade.

He was sure traded a lot, 7 teams in 16 years, .250 BA with tons of strikeouts.

Shoeless
06-27-2010, 09:59 AM
Esteban Loaiza for Jose Contreras

munchman33
06-27-2010, 10:22 AM
He was sure traded a lot, 7 teams in 16 years, .250 BA with tons of strikeouts.

You don't see me knocking Paulie for being a no-range first basemen his whole career. We traded a power/defense CF for a power 1B with a better stick. Fine, it worked out well, we won a world series. But we've also spent the better part of Paulie's tenure throwing misses at CF.

LITTLE NELL
06-27-2010, 10:25 AM
You don't see me knocking Paulie for being a no-range first basemen his whole career. We traded a power/defense CF for a power 1B with a better stick. Fine, it worked out well, we won a world series. But we've also spent the better part of Paulie's tenure throwing misses at CF.

I don't want to open up a big can of worms but we had a pretty good CFer that we traded after the 05 season.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 10:27 AM
I don't want to open up a big can of worms but we had a pretty good CFer that we traded after the 05 season.
Aaron Rowand isn't on Mike Cameron's level.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 10:28 AM
Aaron Rowand isn't on Mike Cameron's level.

LOL...You're just asking for a fight. :redneck

Zakath
06-27-2010, 11:09 AM
Sure take enough steroids, anyone can look competent...

That McCarthy for Danks trade isn't looking so bad and Freddie for Floyd is looking alright too.

It's looking better and better every day. :D:

DonnieDarko
06-27-2010, 11:17 AM
The trades for Danks and Floyd were very, very good, not just "good". Hell, I'd call them downright exceptional.

eastchicagosoxfan
06-27-2010, 11:21 AM
Nellie Fox for Joe Tipton worked out pretty well for the Sox.

Aaron Robinson for Billy Pierce was a great trade too.

BigKlu59
06-27-2010, 11:45 AM
Here's one for the oldtimers... Tommy John

Traded as part of a 3-team trade by the Cleveland Indians with Tommie Agee and Johnny Romano to the Chicago White Sox. The Kansas City Athletics sent Rocky Colavito to the Cleveland Indians. The Chicago White Sox sent a player to be named later, Jim Landis, and Mike Hershberger to the Kansas City Athletics. The Chicago White Sox sent Cam Carreon to the Cleveland Indians. The Chicago White Sox sent Fred Talbot (February 10, 1965) to the Kansas City Athletics to complete the trade.

Never won 20, but was an integral part of that 60's Staff that included Peters and Horlen..... Agee....His history making would come 4 years down the road vs the O's... would have loved if he became a Jungle Jim II....

Big Klu 59

munchman33
06-27-2010, 12:00 PM
Jon Garland for Matt Karchner turned out pretty well.

Bobby Thigpen
06-27-2010, 12:24 PM
You don't see me knocking Paulie for being a no-range first basemen his whole career. We traded a power/defense CF for a power 1B with a better stick. Fine, it worked out well, we won a world series. But we've also spent the better part of Paulie's tenure throwing misses at CF.
Now I've seen it all.

We have people pining for the return of the likes of Nick Swisher and now Mike Cameron?

:dtroll:

munchman33
06-27-2010, 12:25 PM
Now I've seen it all.

We have people pining for the return of the likes of Nick Swisher and now Mike Cameron?

:dtroll:

Reading comprehension is your friend. I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal. But it wasn't a great deal either. It was a fair to slightly in our favor deal. It has no business being listed in the best trades our team ever made.

Bobby Thigpen
06-27-2010, 12:51 PM
Reading comprehension is your friend. I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal. But it wasn't a great deal either. It was a fair to slightly in our favor deal. It has no business being listed in the best trades our team ever made.
You got the leader of the team over the past 9-10 years, who is in the Top 5 in many offensive categories for a guy who hasn't stayed anywhere for more than a couple years and has hit .250 with 1800 strikeouts and that's not one of the best trades ever made?

TDog
06-27-2010, 01:05 PM
Reading comprehension is your friend. I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal. But it wasn't a great deal either. It was a fair to slightly in our favor deal. It has no business being listed in the best trades our team ever made.

It was a great deal. Konerko has been a cornerstone in the White Sox lineup for a decade after the Dodgers and Reds gave up on him. Cameron has bounced around from the Reds to the Mariners to the Mets to the Padres to the Brewers to the Red Sox. He had some highlights along the way while attempting to enhance his performance through the use of steroids. He was traded for Paul Konerko and Xavier Nady in his career and was involved in a trade for Ken Griffey Jr., but mostly he has moved around through free agency.

I wouldn't trade Konerko fir Cameron today. I wouldn't trade Konerko for Cameron five years ago, even if he would have played a better centerfield than Aaron Rowand. I wouldn't have trade Konerko for Cameron 10 years ago. But I'm happy that the Reds did so before the 1999 season.

Brian26
06-27-2010, 01:20 PM
Reading comprehension is your friend. I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal. But it wasn't a great deal either. It was a fair to slightly in our favor deal. It has no business being listed in the best trades our team ever made.

Konerko for Cameron was slightly in our favor? C'mon, Munch.

:nocomment:

munchman33
06-27-2010, 01:21 PM
You got the leader of the team over the past 9-10 years, who is in the Top 5 in many offensive categories for a guy who hasn't stayed anywhere for more than a couple years and has hit .250 with 1800 strikeouts and that's not one of the best trades ever made?

Why are you arguing the best parts of Konerko and the worst parts of Cameron? That's just as stupid as me saying we traded a gold glove quality, highly durable CF with speed who's also able to give you 20-30 dingers a year for nothing but a one dimensional slugging first basemen. Both guys were valuable MLB pieces over their career. Our ending turning up good isn't what makes it the best trade our franchise has made. If the Marlins trade Hanley Ramirez to the Cardinals for Albert Pujols, it isn't the best trade in Marlins history. Yes, they got Albert freakin' Pujols, but they also gave up a lot. Getting Pujols for minor leaguers that never amount to squat? THAT'S a great trade.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 01:24 PM
Konerko for Cameron was slightly in our favor? C'mon, Munch.

:nocomment:

If not for the WS season, I'm not sure it even was in our favor. Think value...of course Konerko is a better hitter, but 1B are statistically much better hitters than CF. Konerko has been middle of the pack offensively as far as 1B go for his career. I'd venture that offensively Cameron is a little better than middle of the pack in regards to CF (and probably top three defensively over his career).

PalehosePlanet
06-27-2010, 01:27 PM
It was a great deal. Konerko has been a cornerstone in the White Sox lineup for a decade after the Dodgers and Reds gave up on him. Cameron has bounced around from the Reds to the Mariners to the Mets to the Padres to the Brewers to the Red Sox. He had some highlights along the way while attempting to enhance his performance through the use of steroids. He was traded for Paul Konerko and Xavier Nady in his career and was involved in a trade for Ken Griffey Jr., but mostly he has moved around through free agency.

I wouldn't trade Konerko fir Cameron today. I wouldn't trade Konerko for Cameron five years ago, even if he would have played a better centerfield than Aaron Rowand. I wouldn't have trade Konerko for Cameron 10 years ago. But I'm happy that the Reds did so before the 1999 season.

I wouldn't say the Dodgers or Reds gave up on him. He was simply the high prized prospect that every team wanted in a trade. After all, he was the BA minor league player of the year in 1997.

Tommy Lasorda, during the summer of '98, was desperate to find a closer for the Dodgers. So desperate that he got hosed by The Reds in a deal for Jeff Shaw. And although Shaw pitched pretty well for The Dodgers for a year and a half, in the long run it was not a good trade for The Dodgers.

As for Cameron for Konerko, The Reds GM (Jim Bowden, at the time I believe) was completely enamored with Mike Cameron. Cameron was struggling with The Sox at the time so he probably wasn't that tough of a give-up for Ron Schueler. He asked for Konerko, and after some counter offers by Bowden were shot down, he eventually relented and gave us Konerko for Cameron.

Cameron, meanwhile, has always been a pretty good ballplayer --- although somewhat of a journeyman --- but for whatever reason has always been thought of as replaceable by whatever his current team. Just one reason he's been with 7 teams in the last 11 years.

Now, admittedly, sometimes he was simply an unfortunate victim of circumstance (E.G. The Reds brought in Griffey, The Mets brought in Beltran) but overall he's always been deemed replaceable. (Not that it was always the right moves by the teams that replaced him.)

Jpgr91
06-27-2010, 01:27 PM
It is important to consider what type of production at the MLB level you are giving up to acquire a player. Given how Thornton has produced at the MLB level over an extended period of time I think that very easily is one of the most lopsided trades in White Sox history.

asindc
06-27-2010, 01:33 PM
If not for the WS season, I'm not sure it even was in our favor. Think value...of course Konerko is a better hitter, but 1B are statistically much better hitters than CF. Konerko has been middle of the pack offensively as far as 1B go for his career. I'd venture that offensively Cameron is a little better than middle of the pack in regards to CF (and probably top three defensively over his career).

When the trade was made, it made sense for both sides and was a pretty much even trade. As their respective careers have progressed, it has become more and more lopsided in the Sox's favor, even before 2005. As early as 2004, no GM in his right mind would take Cameron over Pauly. Whether or not it is a top 5 trade in Sox history is open for debate, but there is no debate that the Sox have clearly gotten the better of the trade.

voodoochile
06-27-2010, 01:41 PM
Aaron Rowand isn't on Mike Cameron's level.


Isn't Cameron also one of the few players to receive a 50 game suspension for PED's?

Keep defending him. He's a known cheat.

TDog
06-27-2010, 01:42 PM
I wouldn't say the Dodgers or Reds gave up on him. He was simply the high prized prospect that every team wanted in a trade. After all, he was the BA minor league player of the year in 1997. ...

The Dodgers gave up on Konerko. The Reds thought they could turn him over for something better.

TDog
06-27-2010, 01:45 PM
Isn't Cameron also one of the few players to receive a 50 game suspension for PED's?

Keep defending him. He's a known cheat.

It was a 25-game suspension (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3088062).

munchman33
06-27-2010, 01:48 PM
When the trade was made, it made sense for both sides and was a pretty much even trade. As their respective careers have progressed, it has become more and more lopsided in the Sox's favor, even before 2005. As early as 2004, no GM in his right mind would take Cameron over Pauly. Whether or not it is a top 5 trade in Sox history is open for debate, but there is not debate that the Sox have clearly gotten the better of the trade.


It's only "lopsided" in the old view that slugging one dimensional offensive players are golden. I wouldn't say Paulie has been better than Cameron in his career, and I love Paulie. He's only been a better hitter. Cameron was a gold glove defender at a key defensive position. He has half a dozen 20-20 seasons. In his prime, he flirted with 30-30 seasons. People put way too much emphasis on the fact that Konerko hits homers. He's a first basemen, they all do that. Not all CF do the things that Mike Cameron did over his career. He was a hell of a player. I'm not saying I would undo the trade...I wouldn't, Paulie's my favorite player. But the trade was even then, and it's probably a wash now that it's all said and done.

pudge
06-27-2010, 01:50 PM
If not for the WS season, I'm not sure it even was in our favor. Think value...of course Konerko is a better hitter, but 1B are statistically much better hitters than CF. Konerko has been middle of the pack offensively as far as 1B go for his career. I'd venture that offensively Cameron is a little better than middle of the pack in regards to CF (and probably top three defensively over his career).

Munch, you're just way way off on this one. Konerko has turned into possibly one of the greatest Sox of All-Time. He was such a highly touted hitter, I actually remember exactly where I was when I first heard about that trade, and I remember thinking, "this could be huge". I LOVED that trade the minute it went down. Yes Cameron was a nice athlete, but he was a strikeout machine, was never going to be a .300 caliber-hitter, was never going to hit 40 bombs. Reds fans will argue it eventually landed them Griffey, but I think that just makes it even more of a steal.

Not to mention, the Sox were high on a certain prospect from Atlanta named Aaron Rowand. I don't recall if he came after that trade, but no doubt he was on their radar.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 01:52 PM
Isn't Cameron also one of the few players to receive a 50 game suspension for PED's?

Keep defending him. He's a known cheat.

Voodoo as far as I'm concerned everyone in baseball probably was doing something, and people are probably right now doing things none of us know about that the media will scream bloody murder about ten years from now. Players in all generations have done things to gain an edge, and they will until we don't play sports anymore. I'm not going to alter my view of the numbers because I don't have all the information.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 01:54 PM
Munch, you're just way way off on this one. Konerko has turned into possibly one of the greatest Sox of All-Time. He was such a highly touted hitter, I actually remember exactly where I was when I first heard about that trade, and I remember thinking, "this could be huge". I LOVED that trade the minute it went down. Yes Cameron was a nice athlete, but he was a strikeout machine, was never going to be a .300 caliber-hitter, was never going to hit 40 bombs. Reds fans will argue it eventually landed them Griffey, but I think that just makes it even more of a steal.

Not to mention, the Sox were high on a certain prospect from Atlanta named Aaron Rowand. I don't recall if he came after that trade, but no doubt he was on their radar.

Where do you suppose Konerko's production ranks amongst first basemen most seasons? I think you'd be surprised to see how few seasons he's even among the top 10 first basemen in baseball.

There were seasons Cameron was in the argument for best CF in baseball.

voodoochile
06-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Voodoo as far as I'm concerned everyone in baseball probably was doing something, and people are probably right now doing things none of us know about that the media will scream bloody murder about ten years from now. Players in all generations have done things to gain an edge, and they will until we don't play sports anymore. I'm not going to alter my view of the numbers because I don't have all the information.


Okay, so since almost everyone is suspect we can't even condemn the people who actually got busted?

I'm not letting anyone who has proven to be a cheater off the hook. In fact, since we're playing idle speculation games, I'll offer up the possibility that one reason Cameron was traded so often is people knew he was using and figured he was only good because of that fact and thus was a less desirable commodity than people with less suspicion surrounding them.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Isn't Cameron also one of the few players to receive a 50 game suspension for PED's?

Keep defending him. He's a known cheat.
Oh, give me a ****ing break. He's been the top defensive center-fielder in the game for well over a decade.

For a board that hems and haws about how SABR folks undervalue defense, some of you guys sure don't mind acting hypocritical when it comes to evaluating Konerko and Cameron.

pudge
06-27-2010, 01:58 PM
Where do you suppose Konerko's production ranks amongst first basemen most seasons? I think you'd be surprised to see how few seasons he's even among the top 10 first basemen in baseball.

There were seasons Cameron was in the argument for best CF in baseball.

Who gives a flip? The best hitters tend to be at 1B, so all the more impressive he's had a good enough career to stack up with them, not to mention he doesn't get a lot of pub for being a pretty darn good defensive first baseman. He's also clutch. And he's probably one of the few who hasn't juiced early in this decade.

I live in Seattle so I have watched Cameron plenty, and in his prime. He played great CF. He still struck out way too much. I watched Cameron on the 116-win Mariner team and not once did I regret the Konerko trade. Konerko is a classic hitter you don't get your hands on very often. And again, it all depends on what you have in your organization. I still wish we did not have to trade Rowand to get Thome, but the belief was we had Anderson.

voodoochile
06-27-2010, 01:58 PM
Oh, give me a ****ing break. He's been the top defensive center-fielder in the game for well over a decade.

For a board that hems and haws about how SABR folks undervalue defense, some of you guys sure don't mind acting hypocritical when it comes to evaluating Konerko and Cameron.


:hawk
"Your WHAT hurts?"

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 01:59 PM
:hawk
"Your WHAT hurts?"
Care to argue against it?

voodoochile
06-27-2010, 02:00 PM
Care to argue against it?

TorIIII Hunter...

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 02:01 PM
Also, this is no argument against Paulie. He's been great for us. The trade couldn't have worked out any better.

It just wasn't all that lopsided in terms of talent vs. talent. A solid to good center-fielder is worth more than a good to very good first baseman. This is baseball 101.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 02:02 PM
TorIIII Hunter...
Ah, highlight-reel-Hunter. He's a good center fielder, there might be an argument, but he fell off hard at the middle part* of the decade.

Edit*

Daver
06-27-2010, 02:03 PM
TorIIII Hunter...

At the time of the trade there was a guy named Griffey playing that was the standard everyone else was measured against, and Mike Cameron is not really close to that standard.

voodoochile
06-27-2010, 02:04 PM
At the time of the trade there was a guy named Griffey playing that was the standard everyone else was measured against, and Mike Cameron is not really close to that standard.

I was gonna mention him too.

goon
06-27-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't know how many times Konerko has picked a ball out of the dirt to save an out for this team? Seriously, after watching him for several years, he's a very good 1b. He may not be the most spry, but he has excellent hands and usually seems to make smart plays on the field.

Hitting wise, obviously, no comparison. Konerko is on another level, by A LOT. Less K's, gets on base at a better clip, smarter hitter, more power, just completely lopsided.

Cameron was always an above average CF and could hit for power and in his prime could steal a lot of bases. It wasn't a bad trade for the Reds, but we unquestionably got the MUCH better end of it.

Also, you have to wonder about Cameron bouncing around a lot later in his career. There might be something outside of clubhouses that fans don't know about. Obviously, the PED thing, but maybe something else. There's a lot that stats don't tell you.

Edit: You can also put in the fact that Cameron has never had to lead a team. Konerko has, hands down, been the guys players on the roster look to for leadership. Without him, do the Sox win the World Series in 2005? Probably not.

pudge
06-27-2010, 02:07 PM
It just wasn't all that lopsided in terms of talent vs. talent. A solid to good center-fielder is worth more than a good to very good first baseman. This is baseball 101.

Then what do you think of Rowand for Thome? If you have a chance to get a special hitter, and you think you have the CF hole backed up in your organization, then it becomes a pretty brilliant trade. It took a while for it to really play out.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 02:07 PM
At the time of the trade there was a guy named Griffey playing that was the standard everyone else was measured against, and Mike Cameron is not really close to that standard.
And almost immediately after the trade Griffey fell off a cliff.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 02:08 PM
Then what do you think of Rowand for Thome? If you have a chance to get a special hitter, and you think you have the CF hole backed up in your organization, then it becomes a pretty brilliant trade. It took a while for it to really play out.
Aaron Rowand was not a solid to good center fielder.

goon
06-27-2010, 02:12 PM
Aaron Rowand was not a solid to good center fielder.

In his prime, Aaron Rowand was a solid defender. 2004-2005, especially. Maybe not the most talented, but a good head on his shoulders, never got caught sleeping either.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 03:00 PM
I don't know how many times Konerko has picked a ball out of the dirt to save an out for this team? Seriously, after watching him for several years, he's a very good 1b. He may not be the most spry, but he has excellent hands and usually seems to make smart plays on the field.

Hitting wise, obviously, no comparison. Konerko is on another level, by A LOT. Less K's, gets on base at a better clip, smarter hitter, more power, just completely lopsided.

Cameron was always an above average CF and could hit for power and in his prime could steal a lot of bases. It wasn't a bad trade for the Reds, but we unquestionably got the MUCH better end of it.

Also, you have to wonder about Cameron bouncing around a lot later in his career. There might be something outside of clubhouses that fans don't know about. Obviously, the PED thing, but maybe something else. There's a lot that stats don't tell you.

Edit: You can also put in the fact that Cameron has never had to lead a team. Konerko has, hands down, been the guys players on the roster look to for leadership. Without him, do the Sox win the World Series in 2005? Probably not.

Konerko is NOT a good defensive player. Calling him such is either uninformed or pure homerism. Being good at picking balls in the dirt from throws is a great treat, and Konerko does do that better than a lot of first basemen. But he also had bottom five range at first base for most of his career. Calling him middle of the pack defensively is probably being nice about it.

Anyone think Cameron's still on PED's? Even at his old age he's fairly productive (and still a good defender).

munchman33
06-27-2010, 03:00 PM
Okay, so since almost everyone is suspect we can't even condemn the people who actually got busted?

I'm not letting anyone who has proven to be a cheater off the hook. In fact, since we're playing idle speculation games, I'll offer up the possibility that one reason Cameron was traded so often is people knew he was using and figured he was only good because of that fact and thus was a less desirable commodity than people with less suspicion surrounding them.

My gut tells me I'm an idiot to think any particular player didn't do it. Even Konerko. I just can't rule it out. I can hold it against Cameron, sure, but not in the context of other players.

balke
06-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Aaron Rowand was not a solid to good center fielder.

His UZR is also better than Cameron's at CF over the course of their careers. I never understand why people want to pretend Rowand was a bad CFer.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 03:26 PM
His UZR is also better than Cameron's at CF over the course of their careers. I never understand why people want to pretend Rowand was a bad CFer.
Yeah that always confuses me too. Both the eye test, and the defensive stats show that he was a good defender.


And Mike Cameron was never the player that Paul Konerko is. There's a reason the guy has been on, like, 50 teams.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 03:27 PM
My gut tells me I'm an idiot to think any particular player didn't do it. Even Konerko. I just can't rule it out. I can hold it against Cameron, sure, but not in the context of other players.
Frank Thomas never took steroids. I'd bet my left nut on it.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 03:34 PM
Frank Thomas never took steroids. I'd bet my left nut on it.

Considering the stance he took on pushing testing, I would agree with you. But he's probably the only person that's minimized doubts to me. And I still can't be 100%.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 03:41 PM
Yeah that always confuses me too. Both the eye test, and the defensive stats show that he was a good defender.


And Mike Cameron was never the player that Paul Konerko is. There's a reason the guy has been on, like, 50 teams.

Oh dear lord. Being on a lot of teams is not a sign of being a bad player. You realize Mike Cameron has been an All-Star, has won multiple Gold Gloves, and for two years in his career even received MVP votes at the end of the season? Do you realize Cameron's been a 20-20 man five times, barely missing it 4 other times, flirted with 30-30 a couple of years (and 20-40 a few times)? Do you realize how little production comes out of centerfield? For Cameron to have those kinds of numbers, AND be one of the best defensive players in the game....Konerko aiding us in a World Series is the ONLY thing keeping the debate open. 30 homers a year from a one dimensional slugging average defending first basemen is not some special thing. If we didn't have Konerko, we'd have been able to replace him fairly easily.

TheVulture
06-27-2010, 03:53 PM
Being good at picking balls in the dirt from throws is a great treat, and Konerko does do that better than a lot of first basemen. But he also had bottom five range at first base for most of his career. Calling him middle of the pack defensively is probably being nice about it.



It's more than a treat, it's the most important aspect of the job. Konerko is about as a good as it gets as a receiver at first base.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 04:03 PM
Oh dear lord. Being on a lot of teams is not a sign of being a bad player. You realize Mike Cameron has been an All-Star, has won multiple Gold Gloves, and for two years in his career even received MVP votes at the end of the season? Do you realize Cameron's been a 20-20 man five times, barely missing it 4 other times, flirted with 30-30 a couple of years (and 20-40 a few times)? Do you realize how little production comes out of centerfield? For Cameron to have those kinds of numbers, AND be one of the best defensive players in the game....Konerko aiding us in a World Series is the ONLY thing keeping the debate open. 30 homers a year from a one dimensional slugging average defending first basemen is not some special thing. If we didn't have Konerko, we'd have been able to replace him fairly easily.
Second all time on every slugging Sox list is better than being a pretty good defender and ****ty hitter with OK steal numbers. Oh dear lord, yourself.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 04:23 PM
Second all time on every slugging Sox list is better than being a pretty good defender and ****ty hitter with OK steal numbers. Oh dear lord, yourself.
Calling Mike Cameron a ****ty hitter is stupid.

asindc
06-27-2010, 04:28 PM
Calling Mike Cameron a ****ty hitter is stupid.

Calling him a comparable player to Konerko is not smart, either.

SOXSINCE'70
06-27-2010, 04:34 PM
Freddie for Floyd is looking alright too.

It's looking better and better every day. :D:

Just an FYI: My dad lives an hour away from Citizen's Bank Park.When I go to see him each summer, we go to a few Phillies games.
Hint: do not mention the names Freddy Garcia and Gavin Floyd in Philly.The fans still want Ed Wade's head for making
this trade (and Wade's no longer the G.M.).:D:

munchman33
06-27-2010, 04:43 PM
Calling him a comparable player to Konerko is not smart, either.

False. In fact, I'd lean towards saying Cameron had a better overall career if not for Paulie's ring.

Second all time on every slugging Sox list is better than being a pretty good defender and ****ty hitter with OK steal numbers. Oh dear lord, yourself.

When I call someone a one-dimensional slugger, using his slugging to make a point is kind of moot, don't you think? :?:

Your idea of his defense is your own. It does not match up with what baseball people say. Cameron was an elite defender.

edit: I think what you're really getting at is Konerko's ability to hit home runs trumps Cameron. Well, if you think the extra ten homers a year is worth GG defense in center and 20-30 steals, that's your prerogative. But you're still wrong.

It's more than a treat, it's the most important aspect of the job. Konerko is about as a good as it gets as a receiver at first base.

You say that like 90% of the first basemen in the league have an adventure trying to catch a baseball when someone throws it at them.

It's not unimportant. But it's not most important either. He's better than most at it, but not A LOT better than most. On the other side - he's damn near the bottom when it comes to other aspects of being a first basemen.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 04:46 PM
Calling him a comparable player to Konerko is not smart, either.
Is there no adjustment made for evaluating an up-the-middle player and a first baseman?

munchman33
06-27-2010, 04:49 PM
Is there no adjustment made for evaluating an up-the-middle player and a first baseman?

Not when that player is on the Sox, no.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 04:54 PM
Not when that player is on the Sox, no.
Ah, sound logic.

While we're at it, let's think of first basemen better than our own up-the-middle defensive whiz, Omar Vizquel. I'll start: Ryan Garko and Doug Mientkiewicz.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 05:34 PM
Calling Mike Cameron a ****ty hitter is stupid.

OK, meh to average hitter. Strikeout MACHINE, and (I guess) ok OPS.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 05:37 PM
Ah, sound logic.

While we're at it, let's think of first basemen better than our own up-the-middle defensive whiz, Omar Vizquel. I'll start: Ryan Garko and Doug Mientkiewicz.

Omar Vizquel: Hall of Fame, in the conversation for best ever-type defensive player.

Mike Cameron: Pretty good defensive player.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 05:43 PM
Omar Vizquel: Hall of Fame, in the conversation for best ever-type defensive player.

Mike Cameron: Pretty good defensive player.
Fair enough.

Franklin Gutierrez vs. Wes Helms.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 05:44 PM
OK, meh to average hitter. Strikeout MACHINE, and (I guess) ok OPS.
A .787 career OPS for a center-fielder is quite good. Especially one with his glove.

You are swinging and missing.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 05:46 PM
Omar Vizquel: Hall of Fame, in the conversation for best ever-type defensive player.

Mike Cameron: Pretty good defensive player.

Over the course of Cameron's career, there are two or three people you can argue were better defensively than him over long stretches (Griffey, Andruw Jones, and Tori Hunter). At times, Cameron was the best. I'd hardly say he was simply "pretty good." Scouting reports classify him as an elite defender.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 05:48 PM
A .787 career OPS for a center-fielder is quite good. Especially one with his glove.

You are swinging and missing.

.787 OPS in center? He sucks, I can name a dozen first basemen sure to post a better number.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 05:50 PM
A .787 career OPS for a center-fielder is quite good. Especially one with his glove.

You are swinging and missing.

Not nearly as frequently as Mike Cameron does.

asindc
06-27-2010, 05:52 PM
Is there no adjustment made for evaluating an up-the-middle player and a first baseman?

Not when that player is on the Sox, no.

Ah, sound logic.

While we're at it, let's think of first basemen better than our own up-the-middle defensive whiz, Omar Vizquel. I'll start: Ryan Garko and Doug Mientkiewicz.

CG,

Since you have already responded to munchman's answer to your question directed to me, allow me to respond to your question. In my remarks, I have already accounted for the differences in position when evaluating each player's career. While there is no doubt the Cameron is a better defensive player straight-up compared to Konerko, even before accounting for the difference in defensive value between CF and 1B, his offensive production has not been enough to offset Konerko clear superiority in that respect. The ultimate question to ask is, statistics aside, which player is more likely to help you win.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 05:52 PM
Not nearly as frequently as Mike Cameron does.

I don't understand how you can fault a productive hitter and an elite defender for having one deficiency in his game, but laud another who's a completely one dimensional player at a position where his production is barely above average.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 05:54 PM
CG,

Since you have already responded to munchman's answer to your question directed to me, allow me to respond to your question. In my remarks, I have already accounted for the differences in position when evaluating each player's career. While there is no doubt the Cameron is a better defensive player straight-up compared to Konerko, even before accounting for the difference in defensive value between CF and 1B, his offensive production has not been enough to offset Konerko clear superiority in that respect. The ultimate question to ask is, statistics aside, which player is more likely to help you win.

You're actually not doing that at all. Forget defense. Compare Paulie's career OPS to the average OPS of a first basemen. Do the same with Cameron and center fielders.

After you realize you were already wrong, then take into account the importance of defense in center and just how ridiculously good a defender there Cameron was.

asindc
06-27-2010, 06:00 PM
You're actually not doing that at all. Forget defense. Compare Paulie's career OPS to the average OPS of a first basemen. Do the same with Cameron and center fielders.

After you realize you were already wrong, then take into account the importance of defense in center and just how ridiculously good a defender there Cameron was.

If defense is forgotten, then it becomes even more lopsided, and when I say I made the adjustment already, I mean overall play for a CF vs. a 1B. You obviously rate Cameron's defense and offense-for-position more highly than I (and many others posting in this thread) do. We simply disagree at this point. As I said before, it is a worthy debate whether or not this was one of the best trades in Sox history, but as far as I'm concerned, Konerko has clearly been the better player, so much so I fail to see why the question would generate any debate.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:06 PM
If defense is forgotten, then it becomes even more lopsided, and when I say I made the adjustment already, I mean overall play for a CF vs. a 1B. You obviously rate Cameron's defense and offense-for-position more highly than I (and many others posting in this thread) do. We simply disagree at this point. As I said before, it is a worthy debate whether or not this was one of the best trades in Sox history, but as far as I'm concerned, Konerko has clearly been the better player, so much so I fail to see why the question would generate any debate.

I'm saying look at the numbers. CF don't hit like 1B.

If the sox had never made the trade, how easy would it have been to acquire a 1B to hit 25-35 homers a year in that stretch? Pretty easy.

How easy would it have been to get a 20-20 guy in center?

Konerko is a better hitter than Cameron. Konerko is pretty average when it comes to offense at 1B. Cameron has been above average when it comes to center fielders.

Now, you need a bat like Konerko's in the lineup. But it's not like there aren't 15-20 other guys that are locks to give that kind of production as a first basemen, and 15-20 more with the potential to do so any given year. How many 20-20, possible 30-30 threats are there in baseball? How many of them play centerfield. How many of those were also elite defenders? Heck, forget during Cameron's tenure. What about baseball history?

asindc
06-27-2010, 06:13 PM
I'm saying look at the numbers. CF don't hit like 1B.

If the sox had never made the trade, how easy would it have been to acquire a 1B to hit 25-35 homers a year in that stretch? Pretty easy.

How easy would it have been to get a 20-20 guy in center?

Konerko is a better hitter than Cameron. Konerko is pretty average when it comes to offense at 1B. Cameron has been above average when it comes to center fielders.

Now, you need a bat like Konerko's in the lineup. But it's not like there aren't 15-20 other guys that are locks to give that kind of production as a first basemen, and 15-20 more with the potential to do so any given year. How many 20-20, possible 30-30 threats are there in baseball? How many of them play centerfield. How many of those were also elite defenders? Heck, forget during Cameron's tenure. What about baseball history?

I know what you are saying, I'm just saying that Konerko's overall impact as a player has been clearly better than Cameron's. Cameron has been good, even very good at times. Konerko has been better.

balke
06-27-2010, 06:13 PM
Oh, give me a ****ing break. He's been the top defensive center-fielder in the game for well over a decade.

Hunter, Granderson, Beltran, Chris Young, Andruw Jones.

Cameron had patches of injuries and hasn't always been as good defensively as he was with the Sox/Reds/Mariners. I would say his last debateable season where he could be considered the best defensively was 2003.

goon
06-27-2010, 06:15 PM
Konerko is NOT a good defensive player. Calling him such is either uninformed or pure homerism. Being good at picking balls in the dirt from throws is a great treat, and Konerko does do that better than a lot of first basemen. But he also had bottom five range at first base for most of his career. Calling him middle of the pack defensively is probably being nice about it.

Anyone think Cameron's still on PED's? Even at his old age he's fairly productive (and still a good defender).

Range at 1b? Really, that's what you're concerning yourself with? He's not a good defensive 1b because he doesn't great range... that is idiotic. You really think that's the pecking order when it comes to defense at first?

How many groundouts really go to a 1b every game? Seriously, this is just trolling nonsense. You're reaching so bad.

What next, evaluating catchers by how great their range is? *****. Besides catching, I can't think of one more position where range is least important... footwork and great hands make a solid 1B, any scout will tell you.

Konerko is a smart defender, I watch nearly every game and he rarely makes a bad throw or foolish decision. I can't count how many times he has saved our infielders asses scooping balls out of the dirt, which I think is hugely important... more so than range.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:24 PM
Range at 1b? Really, that's what you're concerning yourself with? He's not a good defensive 1b because he doesn't great range... that is idiotic. You really think that's the pecking order when it comes to defense at first?

How many groundouts really go to a 1b every game? Seriously, this is just trolling nonsense. You're reaching so bad.

What next, evaluating catchers by how great their range is? *****. Besides catching, I can't think of one more position where range is least important... footwork and great hands make a solid 1B, any scout will tell you.

Konerko is a smart defender, I watch nearly every game and he rarely makes a bad throw or foolish decision. I can't count how many times he has saved our infielders asses scooping balls out of the dirt, which I think is hugely important... more so than range.

I'm going to ignore the attack and just comment on the point.

I think you are vastly overrating picking ability. When someone makes a bad throw, and the ball is "saved" by a good pick, it's not with the assumption that the average first basemen doesn't make that play. Even bad first basemen save throws that are off, it's part of the position. If that wasn't the case, either 1.) We'd be living in the age of the defensive 1B or 2.) Over the last twelve years, the White Sox have had the worst defensive infield in the history of baseball. Take your pick.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 06:24 PM
Range at 1b? Really, that's what you're concerning yourself with? He's not a good defensive 1b because he doesn't great range... that is idiotic. You really think that's the pecking order when it comes to defense at first?

How many groundouts really go to a 1b every game? Seriously, this is just trolling nonsense. You're reaching so bad.

What next, evaluating catchers by how great their range is? *****. Besides catching, I can't think of one more position where range is least important... footwork and great hands make a solid 1B, any scout will tell you.

Konerko is a smart defender, I watch nearly every game and he rarely makes a bad throw or foolish decision. I can't count how many times he has saved our infielders asses scooping balls out of the dirt, which I think is hugely important... more so than range.

This is all true

sullythered
06-27-2010, 06:30 PM
I'm going to ignore the attack and just comment on the point.

I think you are vastly overrating picking ability. When someone makes a bad throw, and the ball is "saved" by a good pick, it's not with the assumption that the average first basemen doesn't make that play. Even bad first basemen save throws that are off, it's part of the position. If that wasn't the case, either 1.) We'd be living in the age of the defensive 1B or 2.) Over the last twelve years, the White Sox have had the worst defensive infield in the history of baseball. Take your pick.

Boy, you just love using the phrase "vastly overrating" to try and devalue others opinions. Fact is, the most important defensive thing that a first baseman does is pick the ball. Pauly is good at that.

Paul Konerko, also, is not "one dimensional." He hits for average and power and defends his position well.

Only a guy like modern day Soriano is one dimensional, so please stop saying Pauly is.

I have seen Mike Cameron strike out BADLY in too many big situations. That counts for something, too. I really think the guy is one of the most overrated players in the damn league.

And to say he has been the best at his position for 10 years is just wrong.

Daver
06-27-2010, 06:34 PM
I'm going to ignore the attack and just comment on the point.

I think you are vastly overrating picking ability.

There was no attack.

This coming from the king of over rating anything that supports his debate and trivilizing any point that doesn't.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:40 PM
Boy, you just love using the phrase "vastly overrating" to try and devalue others opinions. Fact is, the most important defensive thing that a first baseman does is pick the ball. Pauly is good at that.

Paul Konerko, also, is not "one dimensional." He hits for average and power and defends his position well.

Only a guy like modern day Soriano is one dimensional, so please stop saying Pauly is.

I have seen Mike Cameron strike out BADLY in too many big situations. That counts for something, too. I really think the guy is one of the most overrated players in the damn league.

And to say he has been the best at his position for 10 years is just wrong.

Infields don't have 200 errors a season. Paulie might save 100 bad throws, but most first basemen are going to save 90 of those. You are VASTLY overstating.

And range does matter. A good ranged first basemen will save 10-12 hits in a year over an average one. Paulie's range is poor, meaning he allows more hits than the average first basemen. It more than makes up for the picks he gets over the average guy.

Paulie doesn't hit for average. Are you trying to be funny? There are guys with lifetime .320 batting averages at his position. Paulie's had more seasons that he hit under .260 than he has seasons he hit over .300.

Am I suppose to change my opinion on Cameron because you saw him in key situations strike out? How ridiculous does that point sound. Bring some evidence. Give me his numbers in late and key situations...something, anything!

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:41 PM
There was no attack.

This coming from the king of over rating anything that supports his debate and trivilizing any point that doesn't.

Yes, very fine Daver. I'll be sure to call people trolls and idiotic for disagreeing with me because you said it was alright.

goon
06-27-2010, 06:41 PM
I'm going to ignore the attack and just comment on the point.

I think you are vastly overrating picking ability. When someone makes a bad throw, and the ball is "saved" by a good pick, it's not with the assumption that the average first basemen doesn't make that play. Even bad first basemen save throws that are off, it's part of the position. If that wasn't the case, either 1.) We'd be living in the age of the defensive 1B or 2.) Over the last twelve years, the White Sox have had the worst defensive infield in the history of baseball. Take your pick.

I'm going to ignore the fact that you went right around everything I said... seriously range at 1B? Idiotic. Konerko is a smart defender, he fields the ball well, he has excellent hands, saying he's **** because of bad range, clearly you don't know the position.

1B gets less groundballs than any other position than catcher, look something up before you write this drivel. It's embarrassing.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 06:45 PM
Infields don't have 200 errors a season. Paulie might save 100 bad throws, but most first basemen are going to save 90 of those. You are VASTLY overstating.

And range does matter. A good ranged first basemen will save 10-12 hits in a year over an average one. Paulie's range is poor, meaning he allows more hits than the average first basemen. It more than makes up for the picks he gets over the average guy.

Paulie doesn't hit for average. Are you trying to be funny? There are guys with lifetime .320 batting averages at his position. Paulie's had more seasons that he hit under .260 than he has seasons he hit over .300.

Am I suppose to change my opinion on Cameron because you saw him in key situations strike out? How ridiculous does that point sound. Bring some evidence. Give me his numbers in late and key situations...something, anything!

I often wonder if you act like this big a smarmy dick in real life, or if it's just an internet persona.

Hitting .278 over a long career is hitting for average. Hitting .320 is hitting for hall of fame average.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:45 PM
I'm going to ignore the fact that you went right around everything I said... seriously range at 1B? Idiotic. Konerko is a smart defender, he fields the ball well, he has excellent hands, saying he's **** because of bad range, clearly you don't know the position.

1B gets less groundballs than any other position than catcher, look something up before you write this drivel. It's embarrassing.

:dtroll:

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:46 PM
I often wonder if you act like this big a smarmy dick in real life, or if it's just an internet persona.

Hitting .278 over a long career is hitting for average. Hitting .320 is hitting for hall of fame average.

Hitting .278 is not hitting for average. ESPECIALLY at an offensive position. There's a difference between hitting for average and just being average.

Edit: And Sully I apologize if I'm coming off snarky, but people, instead of bringing facts or points, simply call me/my ideas trollish and idiotic and evidently that's alright so I don't know what else to do. But you didn't deserve that so I'm sorry.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 06:59 PM
I know what you are saying, I'm just saying that Konerko's overall impact as a player has been clearly better than Cameron's. Cameron has been good, even very good at times. Konerko has been better.

As an offensive middle of the order player, yes. I'm just saying there's SO many more of those at 1B. There's very few offensive CF, and extremely few that also defend well.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-27-2010, 07:00 PM
This reads like an argument between Rob Neyer and Mike North.

munchman33
06-27-2010, 07:01 PM
This reads like an argument between Rob Neyer and Mike North.

:rolling:

goon
06-27-2010, 07:05 PM
:dtroll:

Troll, troll, troll.
Spin, spin, spin.

Seriously, range at 1b? That's ****ing awesome.

Craig Grebeck
06-27-2010, 07:13 PM
I'm going to step out of this argument and say once again, I agree that the Sox "won" the Konerko for Cameron swap. My main point is it wasn't that lopsided.

Cameron was a damn good player for years. Konerko's been better, but one must account for the difference between 1B and CF. The difference between a .787 OPS and an .848 OPS is not that large when considering a CF and a 1B, respectively.

soxfanreggie
06-27-2010, 07:18 PM
I place a high value on the leadership that someone like PK brings to the table. Something like that, I believe, is critical to winning a championship, and I don't believe we win it all in 2005 without PK.

Cameron is a known cheater, but to what extent it helped him achieve his statistics won't be known. To dismiss that fact, as Munch seems to do by saying everyone could be a cheater, is an argument I disagree with. In the US, you are presumed to be innocent unless proven guilty. Cameron has been proven guilty and his reputation suffers because of that.

When you look at player vs player results, Thornton and Borchard might be higher in my book. However, I put a lot of value in Matt when it comes to production. Others may not hold the same belief. When it comes to cornerstone players for the Sox, PK has a high value. If the Sox are going to make a deep run this year (and I believe we can), PK's leadership is going to be very valuable.

In another thread, I want to discuss a few "You're the GM" scenarios, and one of them will be a contract for PK for the future (if yes, then how much). I think it would be interesting to see the responses of everyone in this thread.

pudge
06-27-2010, 07:27 PM
I'm going to step out of this argument and say once again, I agree that the Sox "won" the Konerko for Cameron swap. My main point is it wasn't that lopsided.



I think that is the best point of it all. It was a shrewd, brilliant move that paid off in spades, and I'd make the deal a hundred times over. I don't know what more I could say other than having literally watched Mike Cameron in his prime years in Seattle almost every day, and still would not retract that trade in a million years. At some point, you can take the "up the middle defense" argument too far.

goon
06-27-2010, 07:29 PM
Infields don't have 200 errors a season. Paulie might save 100 bad throws, but most first basemen are going to save 90 of those. You are VASTLY overstating.

Saving 100 bad throws a season? I watch about 2-3 MLB games a day and I would say on average, there is at LEAST 1 bad throw a game, usually 2, specifically short throws into first base. As a 1B you get WAY more than 100 balls thrown in the dirt, probably closer to 150.

Arbitrary numbers are fun though... Seriously though, what makes Konerko a bad defender? He fields the ball well, makes smart decisions and solid throws, you are saying he's **** because he has limited range? That's petty.

Bobby Thigpen
06-27-2010, 07:55 PM
How easy would it have been to get a 20-20 guy in center?
Apparently decently easy.

The Sox were 3 SBs from having one in 2004.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-27-2010, 08:57 PM
Similar batters per bref: (most similar first)

Konerko: Kent Hrbeck, Joe Adcock, Mo Vaughn, Karros, Kluzewski, Derrek Lee, Jermaine Dye, Greg Luzinski, David Justice, Roy Seivers

Cameron: Brunansky, Lankford, Jim Wynn, Gant, Reggie Sanders, Brady Anderson, Larry Parrish, Kirk Gibson, Rick Monday, Bobby Murcer


Do you want an above average power hitter at first or an above average power/speed combo outfielder? I don't know that one list is so obviously better than the other. I'll take Konerko over Cameron 10 times out of 10 but it could depend on needs.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2010, 09:26 PM
I'm going to step out of this argument and say once again, I agree that the Sox "won" the Konerko for Cameron swap. My main point is it wasn't that lopsided.

Cameron was a damn good player for years. Konerko's been better, but one must account for the difference between 1B and CF. The difference between a .787 OPS and an .848 OPS is not that large when considering a CF and a 1B, respectively.

I pretty much agree with everything you write here, Grebeck.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2010, 09:32 PM
Do you want an above average power hitter at first or an above average power/speed combo outfielder? I don't know that one list is so obviously better than the other. I'll take Konerko over Cameron 10 times out of 10 but it could depend on needs.

I like the Rios / Paulie combination!

Now, if we could just add Robin Ventura in his prime to play the hot corner, and Frank Thomas in his prime to DH, we'd be a lock to win 120 games.

:bandance:

TDog
06-27-2010, 09:40 PM
Similar batters per bref: (most similar first)

Konerko: Kent Hrbeck, Joe Adcock, Mo Vaughn, Karros, Kluzewski, Derrek Lee, Jermaine Dye, Greg Luzinski, David Justice, Roy Seivers

Cameron: Brunansky, Lankford, Jim Wynn, Gant, Reggie Sanders, Brady Anderson, Larry Parrish, Kirk Gibson, Rick Monday, Bobby Murcer


Do you want an above average power hitter at first or an above average power/speed combo outfielder? I don't know that one list is so obviously better than the other. I'll take Konerko over Cameron 10 times out of 10 but it could depend on needs.

Brady Anderson. That should send up some flags.

There was that one year for no apparent reason that Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs. In his 15-year career, he only hit 20 home runs one other time. Aside from his 50-home run season, he only had more than 50 RBIs in six other seasons.

Mike Cameron has a steroids suspension on his resume. It isn't apparent when he started using performance-enhancing drugs, but if you look at his doubles and home runs, his power numbers went up in Seattle.

If you want to compare Cameron to Konerko statistically, oddly enough, Cameron has always struck out a lot more than Konerko. Cameron has about 200 more career plate appearances but about 800 more strikeouts. Konerko has had four seasons in which he had between 100 and 110 strikeouts. Cameron has 12 seasons with more than 100 strikeouts, three with more than 150, once leading the AL with 176. Cameron has never had a season where he played in more than 100 games and hit at least .270. But like Aaron Rowand, Cameron has won one Golden Glove Award. I'm really not sure Cameron would have stayed with the Sox, even if he had enjoyed the power improvement he displayed in Seattle.

If you're looking at the Reds and White Sox, the Konerko-Cameron trade was quite lopsided. The White Sox got a team leader who has been a cornerstone in the lineup. The Reds traded Cameron with others to Seattle for Griffey who ended up playing in less than half of the games the Reds played during his years with his hometown team. Maybe the White Sox needed a centerfielder more than a first baseman, considering Frank Thomas was still part of the team, but for the longterm, they needed the career Konerko brought to the White Sox more than the career one can presume Cameron would have brought to the White Sox.

A. Cavatica
06-27-2010, 10:18 PM
i pretty much agree with everything you write here, grebeck.

+1

Lip Man 1
06-27-2010, 10:36 PM
There have been a lot of great deals in Sox history even before Frank Lane stole guys like Carrasquel, Fox, Pierce, Rivera etc. The Dick Allen deal "saved" the franchise according to both Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner. Kenny Williams has made some terrific trades many of them smaller ones that paid big dividends but to me this was the best deal ever because it completely changed the fortunes of the club in the early 1960's.

The result was a club that averaged 92 wins a year between 1963 and 1967 was involved in four pennant races and barely missed winning two of them.

This was the All-Time best Sox deal:

January 14, 1963 - It was the move that re-energized the franchise and led directly to back to back to back 90 or more win seasons in 1963, 1964 and 1965. Sox G. M. Ed Short traded shortstop Luis Aparicio and outfielder Al Smith to the Orioles for 3rd baseman Pete Ward, outfielder Dave Nicholson, shortstop Ron Hansen and relief pitcher Hoyt Wilhelm. Ward would be named Co-Rookie of the Year (with teammate Gary Peters) and would supply power for the next few seasons. Nicholson, who struck out far too much, still had 22 home runs and 70 RBIís in 1963. Hansen would be one of the best defensive shortstops in the league, finish 4th all time in fielding percentage for Sox shortstops and hit as many as twenty home runs in a season, at a time when shortstops simply didnít do that. (That Sox home run shortstop record stood for over 30 seasons) Wilhelm became the top relief pitcher in the 1960's. In his six years with the Sox heíd win 41 games and save 98 while producing some astonishingly low ERAís considering he threw the knuckleball.

Lip

Warriorjan
06-27-2010, 10:47 PM
I was just sorry that we had to trade Tommy John for Dick Allen. Tommy is my all-time favorite Sox player.
I do think of the Karchner for Garland trade as well when I think of trades that worked out in our favor.
And how about the trade of Lamarr Hoyt for Ozzie Guillen? Lamarr had the great year for us in 1983, but was out of baseball by 1986.

russ99
06-27-2010, 10:51 PM
I was very upset when we traded Cameron, almost as upset as when we traded Durham and my all time "peeved at Jerry moment" when we dealt McDowell.

But there's no way this is even close. Different styles and numbers aside, Paul has been the face of the White Sox for years.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-27-2010, 11:05 PM
I'm shocked there hasn't been any love for the Ozzie Guillen for LaMarr Hoyt trade.

JB98
06-27-2010, 11:24 PM
Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Mike Morse for Freddy Garcia.

KW ripped the Mariners off big time.

sullythered
06-27-2010, 11:44 PM
Edit: And Sully I apologize if I'm coming off snarky, but people, instead of bringing facts or points, simply call me/my ideas trollish and idiotic and evidently that's alright so I don't know what else to do. But you didn't deserve that so I'm sorry.

Apology accepted.

But Derrick Rose is still awesome, and you can be a hardcore gamer and only play console games...:D:

munchman33
06-28-2010, 01:58 AM
Apology accepted.

But Derrick Rose is still awesome, and you can be a hardcore gamer and only play console games...:D:

LIES!!!!:tongue: