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soltrain21
06-25-2010, 05:35 PM
This isn't a hate thread - so let's keep out the "They deserve it yadda yadda yadda."

How in the hell do you fix The Cubs? Terrible contracts, awful team, your "ace" wanted to kill your best position player (after a few years ago going toe to toe with his catcher) and your manager doesn't give a crap at all.

What the heck do they do?

Boondock Saint
06-25-2010, 05:41 PM
This isn't a hate thread - so let's keep out the "They deserve it yadda yadda yadda."

How in the hell do you fix The Cubs? Terrible contracts, awful team, your "ace" wanted to kill your best position player (after a few years ago going toe to toe with his catcher) and your manager doesn't give a crap at all.

What the heck do they do?

Gotta blow it up and start over. Lee is gone after this season, and he isn't valuable as far as trades go. Ramirez is awful, and nobody wants him. Trading Zambrano would be selling low in the worst way. They might just have to suck for a couple years.

white sox bill
06-25-2010, 05:47 PM
Yes they must rebuild.....JR are you listening? Perfect chance to win another WS and capture some more fan base

Madscout
06-25-2010, 05:56 PM
The thing that gets me, is that they just look for these big guys. That Soriano contract is just moronic. Hendry has to learn that you just can't give guys years like that. You can give them cash, but not years.

If it is me, I look to move anybody of value that has a larger contract, start drafting starting pitching every year, look for a new pitching coach to see if I can get someone who can handle the staff better than Rothschild. I move Zambrano, even if I have to pay for him, and give every kid that shows anything of value a chance. This year, the bullpen has been the problem. Marmol has been good, when they can get to him and when he gets it over the plate. He has to close, or be moved. All said, their starting 5 aren't that bad, but you just can't have what happened today happen...EVER.

The biggest thing that the cubs have going for them is that division. St. Louis is never a world beater, but the rest of the division is not sitting on their hands, especially Pittsburgh and Cincy.

konerko 14
06-25-2010, 05:56 PM
rebuild, try to go young. They have Colvin and Castro as a start.

october23sp
06-25-2010, 06:10 PM
Cut Zambrano, trade Lee this year for some talent, try to get whatever you can for Ramirez.

g0g0
06-25-2010, 06:12 PM
rebuild, try to go young. They have Colvin and Castro as a start.

That about sums it up. When I go to the cubs forum it's always "How do we get rid of these guys??" Ramirez, Soriano and Z are our biggest flops with the biggest amount of dollars invested. I would love to see the younglings play like Castro and Colvin. I can swallow not winning a lot easier then. I've been pretty happy with the other pitchers - Marmol has been lights out. Oh and get rid of dumb and dumber (Theriot and Fontenot)!

Red Barchetta
06-25-2010, 06:16 PM
This is a team of "veterans" all looking like they wish they were playing somewhere else, including their manager. I'm sure there would be takers for Lee, Zambrano and Soriano when the time comes.

At first I thought the Zambrano meltdown in the 1st inning was hilarious. Now, I think it's just sad. What a sorry excuse of a team.

Although I feel bad for my friends who are real Cub fans and not just the "fan" who shows up to drink beer and hit the neighborhood bars afterwards, they really, really need to stop showing up and supporting this circus! That's the only way the new owners will realize they can't keep putting this crap out on the field and still draw 3 million people each year. OK, Wrigley is cute and located in a trendy neighborhood, we get it. However now that Chicago has another taste of a World Championship, I don't understand how people can continue to watch the trainwreck on the north side.

To answer the OP question, they need to unload, trade, move as many of these players as possible, go young, promote Trammel to manager until their golden boy Sandberg is ready to manage at the major league level and try re-booting this franchise.

daveeym
06-25-2010, 06:17 PM
You suspend zambrano indefinitely. Oh wait the cubs just did that.

JB98
06-25-2010, 06:18 PM
They need to fire Hendry, for starters.

soxfanreggie
06-25-2010, 06:24 PM
Cut Zambrano, trade Lee this year for some talent, try to get whatever you can for Ramirez.

It really depends on how much the Ricketts family is willing to pay out of pocket to get rid of some of these guys now.

Rather than cut Zambrano, see if you can find someone willing to take him while paying most of his contract. He's due almost $36 million over the next two seasons, but you might find someone willing to pay $1-2 million a year of his contract or give a mediocre prospect if you pay all of the contract. If not, then I could see DFAing him. He just can't stay on the roster anymore, but if you're the Cubs GM, you do anything to get "something" for him. Maybe the Royals would pay $1 million a year for him. I wonder if "suspending" him means he doesn't get paid. If that's the case, they should suspend him all season.

Ramirez will certainly invoke his player option for 2011 at $14.6 million, so the Cubs would probably be funding a big part of that and the $2 million buyout in 2012, as I don't see his 2012 club option being picked up at $16 million.

Lee's $13 million comes off the books after this year, so that's something positive they'll have going for themselves. Once Ramirez and Fukudome are off the books after the 2011 season, that will give the Cubs a chance to negotiate a couple good FA contracts. I think most on this site correctly guessed how bad the Ramirez, Zambrano, and Fukudome contracts would end up.

At $18 million per, the Cubs shouldn't even think right now about trying to get rid of Soriano. It's either pay him off the whole $72 million to play/sit or pay a large share of the $72 million to go somewhere else.

DumpJerry
06-25-2010, 06:27 PM
They have some real good young guys in Castro, Colvin, Soto and I hear some of their younger pitchers are doing pretty good.

They need to start building around this core and by 2035, they have a shot at the postseason.

g0g0
06-25-2010, 07:39 PM
At $18 million per, the Cubs shouldn't even think right now about trying to get rid of Soriano. It's either pay him off the whole $72 million to play/sit or pay a large share of the $72 million to go somewhere else.

His contract makes me think how much they should be based on performance. Give the guy some metrics to adhere to and if he falls below them (it doesn't have to be record year stuff just the average of his play before) then he doesn't get nearly as much money. I know the player's union would have a hissy fit but doesn't that make more sense? He's killing this team money-wise and it hurts both his and the Cubs' chances of doing well.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-25-2010, 07:47 PM
First things first:

If the Cubs do eat a lot of his contract in a trade, they might get a decent/good prospect for him. If not, then they'll get someone who will likely never make it above A-ball.

Keep Colvin, Castro, Byrd, Soto. Do your best to get rid of most of everyone else, and try to get as much as you can for them. Lee could fetch a good prospect from a team like the Angels, who desperately need a stand-in 1B until next year.

If they want to really blow it up, they might have to trade someone like Dempster, who can probably fetch a good and a decent prospect for a pitching-starved team in contention (Twins?)

Basically, no matter what, this team is going to suck, so you might as well implode it and get as many decent to good prospects as you can, then plug them in and let them go through the growing pains.

soxfanreggie
06-25-2010, 08:10 PM
If they want to really blow it up, they might have to trade someone like Dempster, who can probably fetch a good and a decent prospect for a pitching-starved team in contention (Twins?)

Basically, no matter what, this team is going to suck, so you might as well implode it and get as many decent to good prospects as you can, then plug them in and let them go through the growing pains.

I'd trade Lilly to a contender for a prospect in a heartbeat. Dempster will be around for two more years. With enough of the Cubs payroll freeing up this year and next, they can look to get a couple good FAs signed (with $$$ from Lee, Ramirez, Lilly, Fukudome, etc.). It might be worthwhile to keep to go along with those FAs. They'll have over $25 million to spend this offseason alone, assuming they have the same payroll.

kaufsox
06-25-2010, 08:43 PM
I really think the Rickett's missed an opportunity when they bought the team. They should have got rid of Hendry and Pinella when they took over and bring in a new regime. Getting rid of those two would have given a new boss an opportunity in the Spring to move the pieces. I think a lot of GM's (KW included sometimes) become too enamored with their creation and/or hope that what they've put together will work. The Cubs are in a real pickle and if we can see it, so do all of the other teams. My guess is the Cubs are going to have to make some unsavory deals, eat a lot of bad money and this is going to be a burden for them for the foreseeable future. Also, as far as the fans I hate to say the Rickett's are an unknown. They think things are going to be better, but for all they know they might be tighter fisted than the Wrigley's and bad baseball businessmen. Sorry, but success outside of sports doesn't always translate to success within sports.

Red Barchetta
06-25-2010, 10:12 PM
If the Cubs can move Milton Bradley, they can move Zambrano. Regardless of what happened today, he is durable and can eat innings for some contender who needs another arm.

He'll apologize blaming it on his competitive desire to win, blah, blah, blah and then get a fresh start somewhere else.

Personally, I still think he wants to pitch for the SOX and that's why he gets so hyped up when he plays us.

I love Ozzie's soundbyte after the game mentioning he was planning to attend a charity dinner with Z and now "he has a lot of time to make the reservation". :D:

doublem23
06-25-2010, 11:28 PM
I said they should have blown up this team this past offseason when guys like Ramirez, Lee, and Zambrano still had some trade value. What are you going to get for any of them now?

They went for it in 2008, they had a great team and that was their window. Now, they're basically a clinic on what a lot of bad contracts can do to a team.

They're not going to be seriously competitive again for at least 3-5 years.

Viva Medias B's
06-26-2010, 07:17 AM
First and foremost, get rid of Jim Hendry.

WSox597
06-26-2010, 08:13 AM
First and foremost, get rid of Jim Hendry.

Agreed, this has to be the worst GM in sports. Giving some of those players those huge contracts should get him fired.

Soriano is still owed something like $70 million. Unreal. Good luck moving him.

The new owners have an opportunity to start fresh after this year by ridding themselves of Hendry and some of those contracts if possible.

I like Piniella, except for his most recent choice of uniforms, but it looks like he's had it too. He probably misses the broadcast booth right about now.

TommyJohn
06-26-2010, 09:25 AM
This isn't a hate thread - so let's keep out the "They deserve it yadda yadda yadda."

How in the hell do you fix The Cubs? Terrible contracts, awful team, your "ace" wanted to kill your best position player (after a few years ago going toe to toe with his catcher) and your manager doesn't give a crap at all.

What the heck do they do?


They deserve it!! Ha!! Ha!! There I said it. Sue me.

Madscout
06-26-2010, 09:30 AM
They deserve it!! Ha!! Ha!! There I said it. Sue me.

Word. There is no other fan base or organization that feels as entitled as they do before they have won ANYTHING.

Johnny Mostil
06-26-2010, 12:25 PM
They deserve it!! Ha!! Ha!! There I said it. Sue me.

Well, on that note, let me add I wouldn't change a thing. Except maybe bring back Milton Bradley.

Seriously, I don't follow the Cubs well enough to know, but I do know these things can change in a hurry. Anybody else remember this (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0520-rogers-white-sox-chicago-20100519,0,5726551.column) gem from Phil Rogers?

Rockabilly
06-26-2010, 12:54 PM
If I was the owner of the Cubs. I would clean house from the top to the bottom.

I would make Maddux the Gen Mgr and Ryno the Mgr.

kittle42
06-26-2010, 12:59 PM
If I was the owner of the Cubs. I would clean house from the top to the bottom.

I would make Maddux the Gen Mgr and Ryno the Mgr.

Yes. Maddux's vast GM experience would vault them to the top.

Rockabilly
06-26-2010, 01:07 PM
Maddux is a very smart baseball guy. He couldn't do any worse than Hendry has.

What Maddux and Sandberg would bring to the Cubs is get their fan base excited about their franchise again.

Kenny Williams didn't have that much experience when he took over the Sox.

Zisk77
06-26-2010, 01:19 PM
Build around Wells, kashner, marmol, colvin, and castro try to trade anybody else for prospects and salary relief. Maybe someone will actuall take Silva for the stretch run and he returns to junk.

But you have to do more than that...you have to change the whole culture of making excuses for losing and selfish behavior.

Hitmen77
06-26-2010, 05:04 PM
They deserve it!! Ha!! Ha!! There I said it. Sue me.

Word. There is no other fan base or organization that feels as entitled as they do before they have won ANYTHING.

:nod:

What? The Cubs threw a **** load of money at Zambrano and Soriano and it's not working out for them? Well boo-hoo! I feel sorry for a fan base that still wants to pretend the Sox don't matter in Chicago.

How to fix them? Maybe they should find more players like Soriano to sign to 7 year contracts. That and they can hope that the Pirates are ready to hand over more all-star talent to them for practically nothing. Finally, I would trade Zambrano to Seattle for Milton Bradley.

RadioheadRocks
06-26-2010, 05:15 PM
Word. There is no other fan base or organization that feels as entitled as they do before they have won ANYTHING.


I am THANKING you!!!

Nellie_Fox
06-27-2010, 01:12 AM
Why do we want to fix the Cubs? I find their ineptitude amusing.

doublem23
06-27-2010, 01:20 AM
Kenny Williams didn't have that much experience when he took over the Sox.

He had 8 years experience in various positions with the Sox front office before he was promoted to GM in 2000. And if you don't remember, his first few years on the job were AW-ful. Todd Ritchie? Jon Adkins? Those were some bad moves.

People don't get "excited" about front office moves. They get excited about good baseball. Maybe there'd be a little buzz but once everyone realized it's the same ****bag players, it'd be a replay of this year.

I know Hendry gets some flack around here, and for good reason, but he built a team to win 2 years ago. They were very good in 2008 and just didn't close the deal. Not to dissimilar to what happened with the Sox in 2007 and 2009, bad years largely the result of moves KW made to make and keep the Sox competitive in 2005 and 2006. The only difference is the Sox won while their window was open. Yeah, the Cubs suck now and they're feeling the weight of those aging, expensive players, but you can't tell me that over the course of the whole season in 2008 they weren't one of the best teams in the NL and maybe all of baseball. They just didn't win it all. Sometimes **** happens in baseball.

StillMissOzzie
06-27-2010, 02:10 AM
Moron + Deep Pockets = Jim Hendry

A big part of the Cub problem is that Hendry gave several of these guys no-trade clauses, including D Lee, Zambrano, Ramirez, & Fukudome (whom I thank fairly often for declining a reported larger offer from KW to play RF for the Cubs instead).
These NTCs can be worked around, but that often involves contract extensions, which are already exhorbitant. The solution for that is for the Cubs to eat a lot of that bad contract money to get rid of them. D Lee is the only one of these four who's deal ends this year.
You might also recall that the new sheriff in town went to the arbitration mat with Theriot over a measly $400K or so, where the old regime would have just split the difference over a gap 5 - 10 times this one. Eating $50M-$60M or more is not something the Ricketts will enjoy.

And then there's Soriano....

But Nellie's right, I like watching Cub fans squirm as they ponder their miserable future. The 3 year window of contention could easily turn into a longer period of teardown, rebuild, and youth movement.

SMO
:gulp:

soxinem1
06-27-2010, 10:54 AM
This is a team of "veterans" all looking like they wish they were playing somewhere else, including their manager. I'm sure there would be takers for Lee, Zambrano and Soriano when the time comes.

At first I thought the Zambrano meltdown in the 1st inning was hilarious. Now, I think it's just sad. What a sorry excuse of a team.

I think your first point rings the loudest, although the White Sox had the same look until about three weeks ago.

Winning can be contageous. Fisk and Paciorek couldn't stand LaRussa before and after 1983 when the team stunk, but they sure had no problems with him when they started to win.

In this case they have too many players obviously past their primes not only with huge contracts left, but all of them are in the driver's seat with either no trade clauses or a large player option like Aramis Ramirez.

I'd blow it up from top to bottom and play hardball. Like KW did with Cabrera when he offered him arbitration but stated he'd be riding the pine if he accepted.

Fukudome, Lilly, Zambozo, Soriano, and Silva would be the ones I would look to move. There are teams looking for offense and eventually they would waive the NTC if they had a chance to be on a winner.

I'd keep DLee for the duration of 2010 unless he waived his NTC and Dumpster regardless.

I have all the respect in the world for Lou, but he should have know the history of this franchise before he took the job and once the 2008 team folded the tents like wimps in the NLDS. He should step down at year end.

I think Buck Showalter or Jeff Torborg would be the perfect guy to lead them through a blow up rebuild.

soltrain21
06-27-2010, 10:57 AM
Why do we want to fix the Cubs? I find their ineptitude amusing.

It's interesting conversation and, believe it or not, some people here can talk about the Cubs like a normal baseball team.

Red Barchetta
06-27-2010, 10:59 AM
I think your first point rings the loudest, although the White Sox had the same look until about three weeks ago.

Winning can be contageous. Fisk and Paciorek couldn't stand LaRussa before and after 1983 when the team stunk, but they sure had no problems with him when they started to win.

In this case they have too many players obviously past their primes not only with huge contracts left, but all of them are in the driver's seat with either no trade clauses or a large player option like Aramis Ramirez.

I'd blow it up from top to bottom and play hardball. Like KW did with Cabrera when he offered him arbitration but stated he'd be riding the pine if he accepted.

Fukudome, Lilly, Zambozo, Soriano, and Silva would be the ones I would look to move. There are teams looking for offense and eventually they would waive the NTC if they had a chance to be on a winner.

I'd keep DLee for the duration of 2010 unless he waived his NTC and Dumpster regardless.

I have all the respect in the world for Lou, but he should have know the history of this franchise before he took the job and once the 2008 team folded the tents like wimps in the NLDS. He should step down at year end.

I think Buck Showalter or Jeff Torborg would be the perfect guy to lead them through a blow up rebuild.

Part of me would hate to see Jeff Torborg take over because he was one of my favorite SOX managers. I think the no trade clause in these contracts are over-stated. Meaning, if any of these guys would have a chance to jump the Cubs Titanic for a team making a run for the playoffs, why not go and approve the trade? Especially if you only have 1 year left on your contract? I could understand not approving a trade for a bunch of prospects from a team in a similar no-win situation, however if the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Twins, Rangers, etc. come calling....

soxinem1
06-27-2010, 11:46 AM
It's interesting conversation and, believe it or not, some people here can talk about the Cubs like a normal baseball team.

I hear you, as I have no concern or care how CHC does as a team, since they are a rival, but as a baseball fan it is sometimes natural to look at a struggling franchise and see what other might think they need to right the ship.

I remember when teams like KC, PIT, MON, and BAL were annual contenders and baseball, while it will always have doormat teams, seeing so many of them have no hope coming out of ST has ruined the competitive balance of the sport.

Every year I think of ways and things these and other franchises can do to become competitive and eventually contenders, and hope, again, as a baseball fan, that fans of those teams can field a winner eventually.

SOXSINCE'70
06-27-2010, 12:41 PM
They might just have to suck for a couple years.

They've sucked for more than 102 years.What's another 102 years?:D:

PatK
06-28-2010, 12:29 PM
They think things are going to be better, but for all they know they might be tighter fisted than the Wrigley's and bad baseball businessmen. Sorry, but success outside of sports doesn't always translate to success within sports.

I think the fact that the only time you hear from the Ricketts is when they are opening some new revenue stream (Toyota sign, Macaroni statue, getting more $$ off of rooftop owners, etc), is very telling.

They didn't get rich by being idiots. People are still coming to the park and revenue streams are coming in. As long as those things keep happening, I think all of their talk about making them a great team is ear candy to keep luring the sheeple attending games.

kaufsox
06-28-2010, 02:34 PM
I think the fact that the only time you hear from the Ricketts is when they are opening some new revenue stream (Toyota sign, Macaroni statue, getting more $$ off of rooftop owners, etc), is very telling.

They didn't get rich by being idiots. People are still coming to the park and revenue streams are coming in. As long as those things keep happening, I think all of their talk about making them a great team is ear candy to keep luring the sheeple attending games.

That reminds me of a quip a friend of mine used to say when I worked in a country club, "the rich folks here didn't get rich spending all of their money." I think what is also telling is the public face the Ricketts seem to be showing. I'm a bigger fan of owners who are more in the background. Whenever the new owner of a team takes over I'm always a little weary of the "I've been a fan for a long time," line

rwcescato
06-28-2010, 02:46 PM
First and foremost the gm and manager gotta go. Then you have to get rid of the overpaid contracts but nobody else will want them unless your seattle i guess.Then you can rebuild. If they have any brains maybe they offer stone a gm job. He would be good for them. Thank god we got kw.

rwcescato
06-28-2010, 02:49 PM
Part of me would hate to see Jeff Torborg take over because he was one of my favorite SOX managers. I think the no trade clause in these contracts are over-stated. Meaning, if any of these guys would have a chance to jump the Cubs Titanic for a team making a run for the playoffs, why not go and approve the trade? Especially if you only have 1 year left on your contract? I could understand not approving a trade for a bunch of prospects from a team in a similar no-win situation, however if the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Twins, Rangers, etc. come calling....


All these players are liars. Everytime another new cub player signs its always" I always wanted to be a cub. Its my lifelong dream" If I was a player that is the last place I would want to be. LOL

downstairs
06-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I don't know, they're a .440 team coming off 3 winning seasons in a weak division (sans Cardinals).

I say they'll give it another shot next year with most of the same players.

Yeah, Zambrano has to go for PR reasons alone.

Red Barchetta
06-28-2010, 03:21 PM
I think the fact that the only time you hear from the Ricketts is when they are opening some new revenue stream (Toyota sign, Macaroni statue, getting more $$ off of rooftop owners, etc), is very telling.

They didn't get rich by being idiots. People are still coming to the park and revenue streams are coming in. As long as those things keep happening, I think all of their talk about making them a great team is ear candy to keep luring the sheeple attending games.

What other business can you buy where your product is basically the worst in the industry, yet consumers buy it because their perceive it to be better than the competition because it's wrapped in a nice package?!

southside rocks
06-28-2010, 05:59 PM
What other business can you buy where your product is basically the worst in the industry, yet consumers buy it because their perceive it to be better than the competition because it's wrapped in a nice package?!

Well, since you asked -- dog food. Science Diet foods have some of the worst ingredients, including preservatives that have been deemed carcinogenic (BHA and BHT, neither of which is permitted in the human food chain); but the company is owned by Colgate-Palmolive, and the marketing campaign has convinced pet owners that the food is superior to many other foods that actually have better ingredient lists.

And I'm sure there are other instances in which marketing has trumped actual performance. I'm just saying.

Red Barchetta
06-28-2010, 06:06 PM
I like your Cubs is similar to Dog Food analogy! :cool:

TomBradley72
06-28-2010, 06:40 PM
They need to have the guts to truly "rebuild" for 2-3 year period...the fans will still show up, they'll still make money...but it will give them a chance to stabilize as a franchise....watching them for 40 years...they have NEVER done this. Not once.

rdwj
06-28-2010, 07:28 PM
They need to have the guts to truly "rebuild" for 2-3 year period...the fans will still show up, they'll still make money...but it will give them a chance to stabilize as a franchise....watching them for 40 years...they have NEVER done this. Not once.

It's funny because the REAL Cub fans I know would welcome this and the sheep wouldn't care. Why on earth wouldn't they do it?

asindc
06-28-2010, 09:51 PM
What other business can you buy where your product is basically the worst in the industry, yet consumers buy it because their perceive it to be better than the competition because it's wrapped in a nice package?!

Computers.

g0g0
06-29-2010, 08:01 AM
What other business can you buy where your product is basically the worst in the industry, yet consumers buy it because their perceive it to be better than the competition because it's wrapped in a nice package?!

I wouldn't say it's the worst, but it definitely hasn't been great. Padres and Royals come to mind when I think about bad teams. Hell, even the Phillies took almost 100 years to win their first WS. They are having success now but it's all been just lately.

I would welcome a rebuilding period. Give them 3-4 years to get things cleaned out and some young talent in there. If the only thing that matters to the party Cubs fans is the atmosphere then they should still attend and spend money. Then maybe I can look forward to some post season runs. I'd be happy just being in the mix at the end of the year lol.

doublem23
06-29-2010, 08:03 AM
What other business can you buy where your product is basically the worst in the industry, yet consumers buy it because their perceive it to be better than the competition because it's wrapped in a nice package?!

Dude, did you see Transformers 2?

Iwritecode
06-29-2010, 09:29 AM
What other business can you buy where your product is basically the worst in the industry, yet consumers buy it because their perceive it to be better than the competition because it's wrapped in a nice package?!

Anything with a cartoon character on it. (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WellnessNews/kids-food-tastes-cartoon-decorated-packages-study-finds/story?id=10957148&cid=yahoo_pitchlist)

gogosox675
07-05-2010, 11:41 PM
The Cubs should confront their attendance woes and relocate to Montreal.