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Lillian
06-25-2010, 08:05 AM
It may be time to think of replacing Pierre as the lead off hitter.
Although he's hit better of late, his On Base Percentage is completely unacceptable for a lead off hitter. It seems pretty unrealistic to expect him to produce any better than he has over his last 5 seasons in the National League, during which time his OBP was only around .330.

He doesn't have the ability to drive the ball in the gaps for extra base hits, especially with the small alleys in the Cell. He does see a pretty high number of pitches per plate appearance, and hits a lot of foul balls, which is a positive attribute for the lead off hitter, but he simply does not represent the best "table setting" option for the Sox. While providing a stolen base threat is a valuable attribute, it is not as important as getting on base, which is the number one priority of a lead off hitter.

Another point to consider is that the lead off hitter gets more total plate appearances than anyone in the lineup. Can you really afford to give the most at bats to a guy with a way below league average OBP?

Fortunately, the Sox don't have to look to acquire a lead off hitter, as the team already has a much better option. Rios processes all of the desirable attributes of a lead off hitter. He has the ability to steal a base, in fact he's close to Pierre's League leading production in that department.
He's always been a doubles machine, and is currently leading the Sox in that department, with 17.
I will concede that historically, he hasn't been a very high OBP guy, but this year he seems to have improved that part of his game, and is currently second only to Konerko, with a .372 OBP. In fact, he's closer to Konerko than to the third ranking OBP on the Sox.
Perhaps he's taking more pitches, and maybe that has in part been responsible for his overall offensive improvement this season.

Just ask yourself, would you rather give the highest number of at bats in the season to Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios.

Of course, the biggest argument against Rios leading off is that it takes him out of the middle of the order. However, I'm assuming that K.W. will find that missing LH power bat to sandwich in between Konerko and Quentin. If the Sox can add that missing piece, then you have the luxury of batting Rios first, and move Pierre to 9th. If that left handed acquisition is an outfielder, then you could bench Pierre.
I personally would still rather have Jones in the line up than Pierre, but that's because I'd prefer to have the run production, than another stolen base threat. I understand that his average has come way down, but that hasn't been helped by his infrequent playing time. Power hitters need consistent at bats. Remember, this is the time year when balls begin to fly out of The Cell, and Jones is a guy who can hit homers in bunches.

Here is a suggested lineup with Rios at leadoff, and Carlos Delgado as my pick for a LH power bat. I also left Vizquel at third, even after Teahen comes off the DL. I really like Omar in the "2 hole", and love his stabilizing effect on the left side of the infield, although of course he can't play every day:

CF Rios
3B Vizquel
LF Quentin
DH Delgado
1B Konerko
C A.J.
RF Jones
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez

Pierre can pinch run for Konerko and Delgado.
Kotsay becomes the LH hitter off the bench, although I don't really know for whom he would pinch hit.
I haven't considered what to do with Teahen. If he could start hitting, maybe they could platoon him with Jones, and give Mark some playing time in the outfield, where he wouldn't be such a defensive liability.

TomBradley72
06-25-2010, 08:11 AM
It may be time to think of replacing Pierre as the lead off hitter.
Although he's hit better of late, his On Base Percentage is completely unacceptable for a lead off hitter. It seems pretty unrealistic to expect him to produce any better than he has over his last 5 seasons in the National League, during which time his OBP was only around .330.

He doesn't have the ability to drive the ball in the gaps for extra base hits, especially with the small alleys in the Cell. He does see a pretty high number of pitches per plate appearance, and hits a lot of foul balls, which is a positive attribute for the lead off hitter, but he simply does not represent the best "table setting" option for the Sox. While providing a stolen base threat is a valuable attribute, it is not as important as getting on base, which is the number one priority of a lead off hitter.

Another point to consider is that the lead off hitter gets more total plate appearances than anyone in the lineup. Can you really afford to give the most at bats to a guy with a way below league average OBP?

Fortunately, the Sox don't have to look to acquire a lead off hitter, as the team already has a much better option. Rios processes all of the desirable attributes of a lead off hitter. He has the ability to steal a base, in fact he's close to Pierre's League leading production in that department.
He's always been a doubles machine, and is currently leading the Sox in that department, with 17.
I will concede that historically, he hasn't been a very high OBP guy, but this year he seems to have improved that part of his game, and is currently second only to Konerko, with a .372 OBP. In fact, he's closer to Konerko than to the third ranking OBP on the Sox.
Perhaps he's taking more pitches, and maybe that has in part been responsible for his overall offensive improvement this season.

Just ask yourself, would you rather give the highest number of at bats in the season to Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios.

Of course, the biggest argument against Rios leading off is that it takes him out of the middle of the order. However, I'm assuming that K.W. will find that missing LH power bat to sandwich in between Konerko and Quentin. If the Sox can add that missing piece, then you have the luxury of batting Rios first, and move Pierre to 9th. If that left handed acquisition is an outfielder, then you could bench Pierre.
I personally would still rather have Jones in the line up than Pierre, but that's because I'd prefer to have the run production, than another stolen base threat. I understand that his average has come way down, but that hasn't been helped by his infrequent playing time. Power hitters need consistent at bats.

Here is a suggested lineup with Rios at leadoff, and Carlos Delgado as my pick for a LH power bat. I also left Vizquel at third, even after Teahen comes off the DL. I really like Omar in the "2 hole", and love his stabilizing effect on the left side of the infield, although of course he can't play every day:

CF Rios
3B Vizquel
LF Quentin
DH Delgado
1B Konerko
C A.J.
RF Jones
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez

Pierre can pinch run for Konerko and Delgado.
Kotsay becomes the LH hitter off the bench, although I don't really know for whom he would pinch hit.
I haven't considered what to do with Teahen. If he could start hitting, maybe they could platoon him with Jones, and give Mark some playing time in the outfield, where he wouldn't be such a defensive liability.

No thank you.

Andruw Jones? He's hitting ~.200 (.097 in June). Washed up.

TCQ is improving in RF and his bat is coming around (.257 in June), I wouldn't mess with him either.

Pierre's not perfect...but he's doing an adequate job in LF, getting his stolen bases playing a better LF than anyone expected.

soxnut1018
06-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Can we save any drastic lineup changes until after our current hot streak ends?

soltrain21
06-25-2010, 08:16 AM
Moving Rios to lead off is about the worst idea in the world.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 08:18 AM
Can we save any drastic lineup changes until after our current hot streak ends?

The Sox would do well to be preparing for when it does end. After all, they can't play the Cubs, Pirates, and Nats the rest of the way.

balke
06-25-2010, 08:32 AM
The Sox would do well to be preparing for when it does end. After all, they can't play the Cubs, Pirates, and Nats the rest of the way.

Pierre is the best leadoff hitter on the team. He can score from 1B. His poor April messed up his stats - in May and June he's been on Base .340 and with his speed that's good enough. Leave him there and expect more to come. I think he can still get his avg. up to the high .280's.

Moses_Scurry
06-25-2010, 08:35 AM
"You don't **** with a streak"

balke
06-25-2010, 08:40 AM
Moving Rios to lead off is about the worst idea in the world.

Unless Pujols Longoria and Fielder are hitting in the #3 and #4 and # 5 spots and Pedroia is in the 2-hole. I wouldn't mind moving Longoria up to #3 and pushing Rios down to #4 though if the Sox wanna try leading off with Pujols since his OBP is so high.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 08:51 AM
For those of you who seem content to just keep this team the way it is, based upon some missplaced confidence over their recent success against a bunch of weak National League teams, you might want to look at the remaining schedule.

hi im skot
06-25-2010, 08:54 AM
Yes, it's time to shake-up a team that's won 12 of its last 13.

http://www.seelau.org/uploaded_images/wayne_campbell-719332.jpg

"Exsqueeze me? Baking powder?"

voodoochile
06-25-2010, 08:54 AM
Moving Rios to lead off is about the worst idea in the world.

Well that's the biggest exaggeration in the history of the world, but it's as far as I looked in this revised lineup before moving on.

Pierre is in a slump at the moment, but He'll be fine. Leave well enough alone. The team is NOT broken at the moment...

soltrain21
06-25-2010, 08:56 AM
For those of you who seem content to just keep this team the way it is, based upon some missplaced confidence over their recent success against a bunch of weak National League teams, you might want to look at the remaining schedule.

I think you could tell from most of my posts that I'm not "content" with the lineup that goes out there everyday - but moving Pierre, taking Rios out of position he is flourishing in and signing a guy that we aren't even sure can play to be one of your middle of the orders guy isn't exactly a great idea. Add in the fact that you want Andruw Jones to play everyday.

Juan has been solid minus the first month of the season. We need to either trade for a 2b or a middle of the order guy (or both), but Juan isn't going anywhere.

pythons007
06-25-2010, 09:07 AM
This might be viable arguement when we were in April. They are currently on a 9 game winning streak and have won 13 of their last 14 games. I don't care who they played, winning is winning and you don't start screwing with a winning formula.

They might be on Pirates, Cubs, Nationals or whatnot but they are still manjor league teams. The Sox are producing runs and pitching, why would you suggest a major change in the middle of that?

doublem23
06-25-2010, 09:09 AM
For those of you who seem content to just keep this team the way it is, based upon some missplaced confidence over their recent success against a bunch of weak National League teams, you might want to look at the remaining schedule.

You're also offering terrible alteernatives, like batting Rios lead-off.

balke
06-25-2010, 09:11 AM
For those of you who seem content to just keep this team the way it is, based upon some missplaced confidence over their recent success against a bunch of weak National League teams, you might want to look at the remaining schedule.


Atlanta is far from weak.

october23sp
06-25-2010, 09:16 AM
I like Pierre leading off, because when he gets on, he's on the move. Look at the Nationals game with Strasburg, we don't win that game without Pierre's speed at leadoff, I don't even think we would have a hit until the 7th without Pierre's speed.

Tragg
06-25-2010, 09:29 AM
Not much choice other than Pierre.
With Walker and Guillen running the show, this will be a free swining team....and thus low obp. Just the way it is.

pmck003
06-25-2010, 09:30 AM
CF Rios
3B Vizquel
LF Quentin
DH Delgado
1B Konerko
C A.J.
RF Jones
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez


Think about it again: Carlos Delgado, Omar Vizquel and Andruw Jones.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 09:35 AM
To argue that you don't make any changes because they're winning is not very convincing. Pierre is not the reason that they're winning.
The main reason that the Sox have suddenly turned it around is because the pitching is finally living up to its expectations.

Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

I guarantee you that K.W. isn't thinking he doesn't need to tinker with this team just because it finally put together a decent run.

Coops4Aces
06-25-2010, 09:41 AM
There are so many pic options to go with right now, but I think this one sums them all up:

:threadsucks

What a horrible idea. Delgado? And Jones over Pierre? Come on.

asindc
06-25-2010, 09:42 AM
To argue that you don't make any changes because they're winning is not very convincing. Pierre is not the reason that they're winning.
The main reason that the Sox have suddenly turned it around is because the pitching is finally living up to its expectations.

Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

I guarantee you that K.W. isn't thinking he doesn't need to tinker with this team just because it finally put together a decent run.

First of all, Pierre's OBP since the beginning of May is much better than .315. Secondly, no one is suggesting no tinkering is needed. I don't think one Sox fan will tell you that we don't need a LH power bat. Your idea ignores the fact that Pierre is not the biggest problem with this team right now. In order, I think the Sox should correct these problems:

1) LH power bat;
2) 3rd base;
3) Beckham (whether send him down or find another way to get him on track); and
4) LOOGY (Williams needs to go).

Boondock Saint
06-25-2010, 09:44 AM
You don't tear apart the middle of the order to "fix" the lead-off spot. Your lead off man is only guaranteed to lead off an inning once a game. Your 3-4-5 guys are guaranteed to have at least two of them bat back-to-back every time they come up.

Craig Grebeck
06-25-2010, 09:46 AM
You don't tear apart the middle of the order to "fix" the lead-off spot. Your lead off man is only guaranteed to lead off an inning once a game. Your 3-4-5 guys are guaranteed to have at least two of them bat back-to-back every time they come up.
But they do get the most PAs. Giving the most PAs to Pierre is unacceptable.

kittle42
06-25-2010, 09:46 AM
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

No, they don't.

Tragg
06-25-2010, 09:52 AM
Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
I agree with you. He's not a particularly good hitter and he's utterly replaceable. I remain appalled that we actually traded a ML starting pitcher (plus) for this guy.

Except that we don't have anyone who can replace him.

voodoochile
06-25-2010, 09:54 AM
To argue that you don't make any changes because they're winning is not very convincing. Pierre is not the reason that they're winning.
The main reason that the Sox have suddenly turned it around is because the pitching is finally living up to its expectations.

Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

I guarantee you that K.W. isn't thinking he doesn't need to tinker with this team just because it finally put together a decent run.

He's also 3rd on the team in terms of runs scored behind Rios and PK.

Rios: 47 runs, 13 HR net runs not due to his own hits, 34

PK 41 HR, 18 HR, Net runs not due to his own hits, 23

Pierre, 37 runs, 0 HR Net runs not due to his own hits, 37

That's worth something.

Boondock Saint
06-25-2010, 09:56 AM
But they do get the most PAs. Giving the most PAs to Pierre is unacceptable.

Separating the most successful/cohesive part of your lineup is less acceptable. Both Rios and Konerko, and the entire lineup as a result, become less dangerous when separated.

balke
06-25-2010, 09:56 AM
To argue that you don't make any changes because they're winning is not very convincing. Pierre is not the reason that they're winning.
The main reason that the Sox have suddenly turned it around is because the pitching is finally living up to its expectations.

Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

I guarantee you that K.W. isn't thinking he doesn't need to tinker with this team just because it finally put together a decent run.

Every hit by Pierre is an extra base hit. He's swiped 27 bags and has flat out won some games by scoring the run the Sox need in games. He also eats a lot of pitches and isn't anywhere near the top of the list of things going wrong for the Sox.

If the pitching holds up - Pierre is the exact type of player this team needs at leadoff. Someone with speed who can bunt on against a tough pitcher. in 2005 Pods wasn't the best player on the planet - but with the pitching he was huge in helping the Sox score runs in close games.

voodoochile
06-25-2010, 09:57 AM
But they do get the most PAs. Giving the most PAs to Pierre is unacceptable.

How many actual extra PA's will Pierre get over Rios beween now and the end of the season? 15? 10?

Who that the Sox currently have would you like to see actually leading off?

hawkjt
06-25-2010, 10:13 AM
Thank you,no.
Juan is our best lead-off hitter candidate,period.
As has been said, his numbers had picked up until the last week or so,and leading the mlb in stolen bases is very helpful.
He has distracted pitchers a lot of late,which helps Omar,Alex and PK.
In case you did not notice, he scored the winning run yesterday and got it started with a base hit leading off the 8th.

I am going to yield to the professionals,Kenny,Rick Hahn,and Ozzie on making out the lineup...but debate is fine.

harwar
06-25-2010, 10:14 AM
if Quentin's resurgence is for real then having Rios,Konerko,& Quentin 3,4,& 5 looks good to me .. i just don't think that there are any viable options for lead-off other than Pierre .. anyway,we definitely need a DH but Carlos Delgado hasn't played in over a year, after his 2nd hip surgery, so i wouldn't touch him this year .. i suppose Adrian Gonzalez is out of the question now since the padres just keep winning .. Reinsdorf has said that there is money available, but san diego would want bodies not money, and what do we have other than Hudson maybe, that's not up with the big team .. right now though, like the man said .."never **** with a winning streak" ..

Domeshot17
06-25-2010, 10:19 AM
I think it is pointless now to replace Pierre. The biggest hole in our lineup is shown by the fact we still have Kotsay hitting 3-5 EVERY GAME in the AL. We are currently winning inspite of him, which is fine, but Konerko is going to hit a slump sometime this season, it happens to everyone, same for Rios. Quentin may stay hot, but we need another guy capable of driving in runs. Our offense has been too hot and cold.

It was said well, We aren't as bad as we started the season, and we aren't as good as we are playing now, but to sustain winning, we need another reliable bat. 2b you can live with Teahen moving there, he isn't as bad defensively at second as he is at third and his bat is better than Gordon's right now. If you can get a guy like Adam Laroche, a consistent 2nd half hitter who can give you 260-270 with power from the left side and an 830 ops, he would fit in really well. We just can't expect, for an entire season, to keep winning scoring less than 3 runs every other day.

hi im skot
06-25-2010, 10:20 AM
I don't even like Pierre and I still think it's a horrible idea to start tinkering.

However, I can think of someone who probably doesn't think it's an awful idea:

http://www.nysun.com/pics/4889.jpg

Domeshot17
06-25-2010, 10:23 AM
With the way we can pitch in the rotation and the pen, tell me you wouldn't feel good about:

Pierre LF
Omar 3b
Rios CF
Konerko 1b
Laroche DH
Quentin RF
AJ C
Alexei SS
Teahen 2b

You have Vicideo taking time at the corners and DH spot, Kotsay now doing what he should be doing as the utility OF, lillibridge is fine for an IF backup and can also play CF IIRC, and you drop Andruw Jones. If Gordon hits well in AAA, you can give him another shot in August, anything from him turning it around is simply a bonus.

hawkjt
06-25-2010, 10:25 AM
I think it is pointless now to replace Pierre. The biggest hole in our lineup is shown by the fact we still have Kotsay hitting 3-5 EVERY GAME in the AL. We are currently winning inspite of him, which is fine, but Konerko is going to hit a slump sometime this season, it happens to everyone, same for Rios. Quentin may stay hot, but we need another guy capable of driving in runs. Our offense has been too hot and cold.

It was said well, We aren't as bad as we started the season, and we aren't as good as we are playing now, but to sustain winning, we need another reliable bat. 2b you can live with Teahen moving there, he isn't as bad defensively at second as he is at third and his bat is better than Gordon's right now. If you can get a guy like Adam Laroche, a consistent 2nd half hitter who can give you 260-270 with power from the left side and an 830 ops, he would fit in really well. We just can't expect, for an entire season, to keep winning scoring less than 3 runs every other day.

Kotsay is 10 for his last 32 abs, hitting .313 in his last 9 games,with an on-base near .390 and 3 doubles and a homer over that period. He has struggled for most of the season but lately he has looked hitterish.

Domeshot17
06-25-2010, 10:29 AM
Kotsay is 10 for his last 32 abs, hitting .313 in his last 9 games,with an on-base near .390 and 3 doubles and a homer over that period. He has struggled for most of the season but lately he has looked hitterish.

I guess my point was, no one can expect him to keep it up. He has no history of it, and he is supremely more valuable to us in a backup role. He has hit respectable in May and June, but he isn't driving in many runs, which is slightly comical because he hits 3-6. To give you an idea, if you projected his hotter months of June and July, he would give you, maybe, 70 RBIs over a full season. That doesn't cut it 3-6 on a team without a dominant offense.

hawkjt
06-25-2010, 10:37 AM
I agree that Kotsay is better used sparingly...but at this point, on this roster,which lacks for lefty hitters,he is helping out. Against a tough righty sinkerballer like Lowe yesterday, you need a lefty who can give you some good swings like kotsay did yesterday. Thankfully,Lowe finally left and Saito was there to greet Paulie:D:

TomBradley72
06-25-2010, 10:38 AM
To argue that you don't make any changes because they're winning is not very convincing. Pierre is not the reason that they're winning.
The main reason that the Sox have suddenly turned it around is because the pitching is finally living up to its expectations.

Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

I guarantee you that K.W. isn't thinking he doesn't need to tinker with this team just because it finally put together a decent run.

You're proposing Andruw Jones as an everyday player....that's just not a credible proposal.

russ99
06-25-2010, 10:42 AM
I guess my point was, no one can expect him to keep it up. He has no history of it, and he is supremely more valuable to us in a backup role. He has hit respectable in May and June, but he isn't driving in many runs, which is slightly comical because he hits 3-6. To give you an idea, if you projected his hotter months of June and July, he would give you, maybe, 70 RBIs over a full season. That doesn't cut it 3-6 on a team without a dominant offense.

Mark Kotsay - 2004:

.314/.370/.459 with 37 doubles, 15 homers and 64RBIs.

He has a history of it, just not a recent history. If you want recent history, Kotsay hit .292, .349, .434 for us only last year, which isn't awful.
Agreed, he's best suited for the bench, but he's not as bad as everyone thinks, either.

Back to the topic at hand, Pierre's OK at leadoff, but certainly not putting up the numbers expected.
But we have no other option on the big league club or the system right now, except maybe DeAza. Maybe Mitchell can push him next year.

FielderJones
06-25-2010, 10:44 AM
Mark Kotsay - 2004:

.314/.370/.459 with 37 doubles, 15 homers and 64RBIs.

He has a history of it, just not a recent history. If you want recent history, Kotsay hit .292, .349, .434 for us only last year, which isn't awful.
Agreed, he's best suited for the bench, but he's not as bad as everyone thinks, either.

You're bringing facts into a discussion, which goes against the WSI narrative that Kotsay sucks, Ozzie sucks, Kenny sucks, and Reinsdorf is cheap.

Domeshot17
06-25-2010, 10:45 AM
Mark Kotsay - 2004:

.314/.370/.459 with 37 doubles, 15 homers and 64RBIs.

He has a history of it, just not a recent history. If you want recent history, Kotsay hit .292, .349, .434 for us only last year, which isn't awful.
Agreed, he's best suited for the bench, but he's not as bad as everyone thinks, either.

You are seriously going to use stats from 6 years ago for Mark Kotsay in defense, or his extremely limited window last year? Ok, then I would argue Andruw Jones is the best player to DH full time because in 2005 he hit 51 homers and 128 RBI. Hell in 2006 he hit 41 homers and well over 100 RBI.

Let's get real, please. That also the last year Kotsays full year OPS, not one team split, was over .750. Kotsay is not close to good enough to be a full time player. His value is to be able to put up a 750 ops off the bench, which most can't. He is an alright guy in the clubhouse.

And for Fielder Jones comment, I guess I don't understand how a cherry picked stat from when Kotsay was 6 years younger is using solid stats to back an argument. I am simply saying the Sox are one hitter, one slightly above average DH in Laroche, away from being able to contend all year.

And yes, as Russ has said 1093049402020 times, Ozzie isn't at fault because Kotsay is his best option. So getting a better option would not force Ozzie to play the guy with the 3rd lowest average on the team everyday.

hi im skot
06-25-2010, 10:52 AM
You are seriously going to use stats from 6 years ago for Mark Kotsay in defense, or his extremely limited window last year? Ok, then I would argue Andruw Jones is the best player to DH full time because in 2005 he hit 51 homers and 128 RBI. Hell in 2006 he hit 41 homers and well over 100 RBI.

You said Kotsay had no history. russ showed you that he does.

Advantage, russ99.

Domeshot17
06-25-2010, 10:57 AM
You said Kotsay had no history. russ showed you that he does.

Advantage, russ99.

Okay, from now on I will be very clear on my statement:

Mark Kotsay has no recent history that he can be an abover average offensive player over an entire season. I guess I should have known around here anything is fair game :rolleyes:.

The awesome news is Omar Vizquel is exactly what we need in the leadoff hole because in 1999 he hit .333 with 42 stolen bases. (For the Record, I like Omar in the 2 hole because he is solid at his job, kind of Iguchi like in 2005).

SI1020
06-25-2010, 10:57 AM
For those of you who seem content to just keep this team the way it is, based upon some missplaced confidence over their recent success against a bunch of weak National League teams, you might want to look at the remaining schedule. Actually I think you make a good point about Pierre. His OBP is lousy. He is making up for it somewhat by playing solid defense and stealing bases at a better rate than his predecessor. Moving Rios after he put aside last year and salvaged himself would be a bad idea. The truth is that with all his flaws Pierre is the best alternative at the moment.

TDog
06-25-2010, 11:11 AM
There is a school of thought holding that the most successful batting order has the hitters 1 through 9 hitting in descending order of their on-base percentage. A variation of this theory put Nick Swisher in the White Sox leadoff spot at the beginning of the 2009 season.

Treating on-base percentage in such a way, however, ignores the influence your batting order has on on-base percentage. Also, an on-base percentage for the season doesn't guarantee performance for a single game. For example, Thursday, Mark Kotsay had an on-base percentage of .750, but he walked when Lowe pitched around him with first base open to get to Konerko. In the eighth, the Braves bullpen attacked Kotsay with first base open, getting him out before Konerko got the two-out hit with a runner at second, driving himself in in the process.

Jim Thome over his career has been a great on-base percentage hitter, but he has been more likely to walk with first base open than leading off an inning. Regardless, Thome leading off doesn't help your team as much as if he hits with men on base, unless you're removing him for a pinch runner. This season, the best on-base percentage hitter on the White Sox is Paul Konerko at .397. His OBP is .403 leading off innings, but no one would suggest batting Konerko leadoff.

Kotsay actually might have been a good leadoff hitter against Lowe, but Kotsay getting on base didn't have the same effect that Juan Pierre getting on base would have. When Pierre gets on base, he not only forces the pitcher to pitch out of the stretch, but he causes a distraction that some hitters are better able of take advantage of. If Pierre is on first or even if he is on second with less than two out, Ramirez is a good hitter to be hitting behind him because the pitcher is unlikely to attack Ramirez with breaking balls and off-speed pitches. The averages don't exist in isolation.

I have no problem with Pierre leading off because I believe he improves the hitters behind him when he does get on base. I also don't believe his current averages reflect what he will do for the remainder of the season.

hi im skot
06-25-2010, 11:20 AM
The awesome news is Omar Vizquel is exactly what we need in the leadoff hole because in 1999 he hit .333 with 42 stolen bases. (For the Record, I like Omar in the 2 hole because he is solid at his job, kind of Iguchi like in 2005).

See, this joke would have been funny if you hadn't gone back to (sort of) explain it. Even Michael Scott knows that this kind of kills the joke.

Also, for the record, I think we should go back to russ' post about Kotsay.

Mark Kotsay - 2004:

.314/.370/.459 with 37 doubles, 15 homers and 64RBIs.

He has a history of it, just not a recent history. If you want recent history, Kotsay hit .292, .349, .434 for us only last year, which isn't awful.
Agreed, he's best suited for the bench, but he's not as bad as everyone thinks, either.

Emphasis mine.

I think we all agree that Kotsay probably isn't our best everyday option. But he has shown in the past that he can be, at the very least, a decent baseball player. Hopefully the Sox can add a left-handed power bat and really make things interesting.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 11:26 AM
Several of you have echoed my one reservation about moving Rios to lead off. Of course, as I stated, you would like to have his production in the heart of the order. However, to reiterate, such a move is predicated on the acquisition of a potent LH bat. Since no one seems to think that Delgado will be a viable possibility, just plug in your own choice for the LH bat, and then consider that you would still have an effective middle of the order with Quentin, the new LH bat, and Konerko.

The acquisition of a LH power hitter, with a good OBP, is the most important issue, and the key to my whole suggestion. That then affords the luxury of moving Rios to lead off.

doublem23
06-25-2010, 11:27 AM
You're bringing facts into a discussion, which goes against the WSI narrative that Kotsay sucks, Ozzie sucks, Kenny sucks, and Reinsdorf is cheap.

Yeah, 6 year old stats are definitely relevant to this discussion. :rolleyes:

Mark Mulder started the 2004 All-Star Game for the AL, LET'S GET HIM OVER HERE.

hi im skot
06-25-2010, 11:29 AM
The acquisition of a LH power hitter, with a good OBP, is the most important issue, and the key to my whole suggestion. That then affords the luxury of moving Rios to lead off.

Making that move doesn't mean batting Rios lead-off makes any more sense.

russ99
06-25-2010, 11:43 AM
You are seriously going to use stats from 6 years ago for Mark Kotsay in defense, or his extremely limited window last year? Ok, then I would argue Andruw Jones is the best player to DH full time because in 2005 he hit 51 homers and 128 RBI. Hell in 2006 he hit 41 homers and well over 100 RBI.

Let's get real, please. That also the last year Kotsays full year OPS, not one team split, was over .750. Kotsay is not close to good enough to be a full time player. His value is to be able to put up a 750 ops off the bench, which most can't. He is an alright guy in the clubhouse.

And for Fielder Jones comment, I guess I don't understand how a cherry picked stat from when Kotsay was 6 years younger is using solid stats to back an argument. I am simply saying the Sox are one hitter, one slightly above average DH in Laroche, away from being able to contend all year.

And yes, as Russ has said 1093049402020 times, Ozzie isn't at fault because Kotsay is his best option. So getting a better option would not force Ozzie to play the guy with the 3rd lowest average on the team everyday.
Well, those aren't my thoughts exactly...

I'd think that any other player hitting 3-6 in the AL would be a better option to play full-time that Kotsay.

Kotsay's not garbage, but a good bench player. However, the purpose of a bench player isn't to ride the pine the whole season, but play to keep other guys fresh (especially Paul in this case) and play when the matchups are in his favor. The idea that 9 guys play all 162 games is idiotic.

I've said in many posts that I think it's a bad idea for Kotsay hitting in the middle of the order. But A.J. and Beckham's slump and Ramirez' free swinging make 6th the best spot for him at this point. If those players improve, the DH would hit 8th or 9th.

I'd certainly welcome a better player to add to the run-producers in the lineup, LaRoche would be a decent option, but I'd hope Kenny would aim a bit higher, especially if we have to give up good prospects.

kobo
06-25-2010, 11:57 AM
Several of you have echoed my one reservation about moving Rios to lead off. Of course, as I stated, you would like to have his production in the heart of the order. However, to reiterate, such a move is predicated on the acquisition of a potent LH bat. Just plug in your on choice for the LH bat, and then consider that you would still have an effective middle of the order with Quentin, the new LH bat, and Konerko.

The acquisition of a LH power hitter, with a good OBP, is the most important issue, and the key to my whole suggestion. That then affords the luxury of moving Rios to lead off.
You still negate his power and run production by doing so. Just because he has a high OBP now and is a "doubles machine" does not mean that will translate if he's moved to lead off. I don't care what LH bat they bring in, Rios should stay in the 3 hole. He's thriving there this season, and after last season for him to rebound to have the type of season he's having now, I just don't think you mess with him.

Domeshot17
06-25-2010, 12:08 PM
Well, those aren't my thoughts exactly...

I'd think that any other player hitting 3-6 in the AL would be a better option to play full-time that Kotsay.

Kotsay's not garbage, but a good bench player. However, the purpose of a bench player isn't to ride the pine the whole season, but play to keep other guys fresh (especially Paul in this case) and play when the matchups are in his favor. The idea that 9 guys play all 162 games is idiotic.

I've said in many posts that I think it's a bad idea for Kotsay hitting in the middle of the order. But A.J. and Beckham's slump and Ramirez' free swinging make 6th the best spot for him at this point. If those players improve, the DH would hit 8th or 9th.

I'd certainly welcome a better player to add to the run-producers in the lineup, LaRoche would be a decent option, but I'd hope Kenny would aim a bit higher, especially if we have to give up good prospects.

I mostly agree with this, Let Kotsay play 1b once a week, give Quentin a spell vs tough righties etc.

I like Laroche because he is realistic and won't cost us Danks-Hudson-Flowers. 2 of those 3 should be on the team next year (Hudson and Flowers) and you don't trade Jordan Danks before you lock John up long term. You can probably pull Laroche for a few lesser specs.

DirtySox
06-25-2010, 12:54 PM
I like Laroche because he is realistic and won't cost us Danks-Hudson-Flowers. 2 of those 3 should be on the team next year (Hudson and Flowers) and you don't trade Jordan Danks before you lock John up long term. You can probably pull Laroche for a few lesser specs.

I'm in favor of going after LaRoche. He won't destroy the farm system and would be an above average bat for a lineup that desperately needs one. He also tends to be a great 2nd half player.

KMcMahon817
06-25-2010, 01:03 PM
It may be time to think of replacing Pierre as the lead off hitter.
Although he's hit better of late, his On Base Percentage is completely unacceptable for a lead off hitter. It seems pretty unrealistic to expect him to produce any better than he has over his last 5 seasons in the National League, during which time his OBP was only around .330.

He doesn't have the ability to drive the ball in the gaps for extra base hits, especially with the small alleys in the Cell. He does see a pretty high number of pitches per plate appearance, and hits a lot of foul balls, which is a positive attribute for the lead off hitter, but he simply does not represent the best "table setting" option for the Sox. While providing a stolen base threat is a valuable attribute, it is not as important as getting on base, which is the number one priority of a lead off hitter.

Another point to consider is that the lead off hitter gets more total plate appearances than anyone in the lineup. Can you really afford to give the most at bats to a guy with a way below league average OBP?

Fortunately, the Sox don't have to look to acquire a lead off hitter, as the team already has a much better option. Rios processes all of the desirable attributes of a lead off hitter. He has the ability to steal a base, in fact he's close to Pierre's League leading production in that department.
He's always been a doubles machine, and is currently leading the Sox in that department, with 17.
I will concede that historically, he hasn't been a very high OBP guy, but this year he seems to have improved that part of his game, and is currently second only to Konerko, with a .372 OBP. In fact, he's closer to Konerko than to the third ranking OBP on the Sox.
Perhaps he's taking more pitches, and maybe that has in part been responsible for his overall offensive improvement this season.

Just ask yourself, would you rather give the highest number of at bats in the season to Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios.

Of course, the biggest argument against Rios leading off is that it takes him out of the middle of the order. However, I'm assuming that K.W. will find that missing LH power bat to sandwich in between Konerko and Quentin. If the Sox can add that missing piece, then you have the luxury of batting Rios first, and move Pierre to 9th. If that left handed acquisition is an outfielder, then you could bench Pierre.
I personally would still rather have Jones in the line up than Pierre, but that's because I'd prefer to have the run production, than another stolen base threat. I understand that his average has come way down, but that hasn't been helped by his infrequent playing time. Power hitters need consistent at bats. Remember, this is the time year when balls begin to fly out of The Cell, and Jones is a guy who can hit homers in bunches.

Here is a suggested lineup with Rios at leadoff, and Carlos Delgado as my pick for a LH power bat. I also left Vizquel at third, even after Teahen comes off the DL. I really like Omar in the "2 hole", and love his stabilizing effect on the left side of the infield, although of course he can't play every day:

CF Rios
3B Vizquel
LF Quentin
DH Delgado
1B Konerko
C A.J.
RF Jones
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez

Pierre can pinch run for Konerko and Delgado.
Kotsay becomes the LH hitter off the bench, although I don't really know for whom he would pinch hit.
I haven't considered what to do with Teahen. If he could start hitting, maybe they could platoon him with Jones, and give Mark some playing time in the outfield, where he wouldn't be such a defensive liability.

Some people are never satisfied. Pierre is easily the best option leading off with the roster assembled the way it currently is. But Rios? Good Lord. Your most productive hitter SHOULD NOT lead off!! That takes away valuable RBI opportunities. After you suggested that, I stopped reading.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 02:05 PM
Some interesting stats regarding Pierre's season:

Over 16 games from May 2nd to May 20th, he raised his average 77 points, from .187 to .264.
During that span he hit .368 with 10 multi hit games, while walking only twice, and collecting just 3 extra base hits.

It is striking that even when he was on a hot streak, he wasn't getting extra base hits, or drawing walks. I would conclude from those stats that he was agressively swinging at pitches and had a pretty good success rate on his batted balls in play percentages (BABIP).
That is kind of his game though, isn't it? He gets a lot of "duck snorts" and infield hits. If he gets lucky, he can pick up some hits, but he doesn't drive the ball, and he doesn't draw walks.

I never watched him play much, when he was in the NL, but he just doesn't impress me as a very good lead off hitter. I'd prefer to see him bat 9th, if he has to play.

My choice of Rios as his replacement was made more out of desparation to find a better alternative to Pierre, without having to make a trade.

Oh well, I guess if Pierre can hit as well as he has the last two months, and keep stealing bases, he'll due. As many of us have said; "Too bad Pods didn't accept Kenny's offer.

soltrain21
06-25-2010, 02:09 PM
Some interesting stats regarding Pierre's season:

Over 16 games from May 2nd to May 20th, he raised his average 77 points, from .187 to .264.
During that span he hit .368 with 10 multi hit games, while walking only twice, and collecting just 3 extra base hits.

It is striking that even when he was on a hot streak, he wasn't getting extra base hits, or drawing walks. I would conclude from those stats that he was agressively swinging at pitches and had a pretty good success rate on his batted balls in play percentages (BABIP).
That is kind of his game though, isn't it? He gets a lot of "duck snorts" and infield hits. If he gets lucky, he can pick up some hits, but he doesn't drive the ball, and he doesn't draw walks.

I never watched him play much, when he was in the NL, but he just doesn't impress me as a very good lead off hitter. I'd prefer to see him bat 9th, if he has to play.

My choice of Rios as his replacement was made more out of desparation to find a better alternative to Pierre, without having to make a trade.

Oh well, I guess if Pierre can hit as well as he has the last two months, and keep stealing bases, he'll due. As many of us have said; "Too bad Pods didn't accept Kenny's offer.

Because a team that is 2 and a half games out of first place and on a crazy hot streak should be labeled as "desperate." We need another bat to drive in runs - not take one away by putting him in the lead off spot.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 03:01 PM
Because a team that is 2 and a half games out of first place and on a crazy hot streak should be labeled as "desperate." We need another bat to drive in runs - not take one away by putting him in the lead off spot.

I share your concern about needing another big bat, specifically a LH bat, and I agree that it's a risk to tinker with Rios' place in the order.
However, think of it this way; If you had that big left handed hitter, and Quentin and Konerko were hitting well, where exactly would Rios bat?
He is not really a prototypical middle of the order hitter, because he doesn't hit a lot of homers. He has only hit 20 homers once in his career.

Quentin is better suited for that role.
If Carlos bats third, your left handed slugger bats cleanup, and Paulie bats fifth, then Rios would be moved to 6th.
I'd rather see him bat lead off than 6th.

Again, I emphasize that the key here is to find a potent LH bat to bat clean up, and break up all of the right handed hitters. That affords the luxury of letting Rios lead off, instead of needing him to be in the heart of the order.

soltrain21
06-25-2010, 03:32 PM
I share your concern about needing another big bat, specifically a LH bat, and I agree that it's a risk to tinker with Rios' place in the order.
However, think of it this way; If you had that big left handed hitter, and Quentin and Konerko were hitting well, where exactly would Rios bat?
He is not really a prototypical middle of the order hitter, because he doesn't hit a lot of homers. He has only hit 20 homers once in his career.

Quentin is better suited for that role.
If Carlos bats third, your left handed slugger bats cleanup, and Paulie bats fifth, then Rios would be moved to 6th.
I'd rather see him bat lead off than 6th.

Again, I emphasize that the key here is to find a potent LH bat to bat clean up, and break up all of the right handed hitters. That affords the luxury of letting Rios lead off, instead of needing him to be in the heart of the order.

He is flourishing in the three spot, there is no reason to move him. And what makes you think TCQ is better suited for that role? He has had a good week. Rios has had a good year.

hi im skot
06-25-2010, 03:36 PM
Honest question - has Rios ever batted lead-off in his big league career?

WizardsofOzzie
06-25-2010, 03:51 PM
Honest question - has Rios ever batted lead-off in his big league career?
Quick glance at baseballreference.com shows he batted leadoff in 11 games in 2004. Didn't check any other years. Regardless, I think it's a bad idea

soltrain21
06-25-2010, 04:15 PM
To argue that you don't make any changes because they're winning is not very convincing. Pierre is not the reason that they're winning.
The main reason that the Sox have suddenly turned it around is because the pitching is finally living up to its expectations.

Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month. He doesn't get on base nearly enough for a lead off hitter. You do all realize that his OBP is .315!!!
They aren't winning because of him, they're winning in spite of him.
The Sox have to get better at lead off if they're going to keep winning.

I guarantee you that K.W. isn't thinking he doesn't need to tinker with this team just because it finally put together a decent run.

Boom. Roasted.

soxinem1
06-25-2010, 04:29 PM
"You don't **** with a streak"

+1!!!

I don't care if Konerko was the lead-off man, you never mess with what is working.

balke
06-25-2010, 04:44 PM
It is striking that even when he was on a hot streak, he wasn't getting extra base hits, or drawing walks.

Oh well, I guess if Pierre can hit as well as he has the last two months, and keep stealing bases, he'll due. As many of us have said; "Too bad Pods didn't accept Kenny's offer.

Ah yes... the Great Podsednik. His OBP. is .300 in June and was .303 in May. All he had was a hot April. He has 6 Extra base hits in 2 months... and 7 fewer SB.

Pierre has scored more runs (And just got on base with a double and scored a run in this game now).

spawn
06-25-2010, 04:53 PM
Pierre hasn't had an extra base hit in a month.


:hawk
You can cancel the postgame show.

esbrechtel
06-25-2010, 05:26 PM
Boom. Roasted.

:lol:

TheVulture
06-25-2010, 06:10 PM
Pierre's OBP has been above .340 since the beginning of May. Who cares if he can't drive the ball? That's what his speed and the rest of the lineup are for.

DonnieDarko
06-25-2010, 06:46 PM
TC, you should be ashamed at making this topic.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 07:00 PM
Boom. Roasted.

Actually, I misspoke. He had a triple against the Pirates, so today's double was his second extra base hit in the last month.
Wow, I'm impressed.
I guess that just completely invalidates my point, huh?

Boondock Saint
06-25-2010, 07:06 PM
Actually, I misspoke. He had a triple against the Pirates, so today's double was his second extra base hit in the last month.
Wow, I'm impressed.
I guess that just completely invalidates my point, huh?

:tealpolice:

Coops4Aces
06-25-2010, 07:09 PM
I'm starting to believe more and more the saying that some people argue just for the sake of arguing.

TheVulture
06-25-2010, 07:11 PM
Actually, I misspoke. He had a triple against the Pirates, so today's double was his second extra base hit in the last month.
Wow, I'm impressed.
I guess that just completely invalidates my point, huh?

Why does he need to hit extra base hits? If he can take extra bases via the steal, what's the big difference?

Don't get me wrong, if you can acquire the 1990 model of Rickey Henderson, I'm all for it. I'll take Ichiro and move Quentin over to left, too. I just don't see the big problem with Pierre, though.

Lillian
06-25-2010, 07:16 PM
Why does he need to hit extra base hits? If he can take extra bases via the steal, what's the big difference?

Don't get me wrong, if you can acquire the 1990 model of Rickey Henderson, I'm all for it. I'll take Ichiro and move Quentin over to left, too. I just don't see the big problem with Pierre, though.

The big problem with him is his .314 OBP. Getting on base is the number one task of the lead off hitter, right?
I was responding to the guys who seemed to think that his double today "roasted" my comment about him not having had an extra base hit in so long.

TheVulture
06-25-2010, 07:20 PM
The big problem with him is his .314 OBP. Getting on base is the number one task of the lead off hitter, right?

Yes but his OBP since May 1 is .340.

soxfanreggie
06-25-2010, 07:49 PM
The big problem with him is his .314 OBP. Getting on base is the number one task of the lead off hitter, right?
I was responding to the guys who seemed to think that his double today "roasted" my comment about him not having had an extra base hit in so long.

I thought the number one task of the leadoff hitter was to show up at the ballpark - or else we can't start the game. Get down to "expectations", then you're expecting him to get on base and then score. It doesn't help us if he has a .500 OBP if he's not crossing the plate.

Right now, I don't care if we're trotting a chicken, a pig, and a buffalo out there if we're putting up wins like we are now.

TomBradley72
06-25-2010, 08:36 PM
The big problem with him is his .314 OBP. Getting on base is the number one task of the lead off hitter, right?
I was responding to the guys who seemed to think that his double today "roasted" my comment about him not having had an extra base hit in so long.

The big problem with your proposed line up is replacing Pierre with Jones in the outfield...where the hell does that come from? Jones is hitting .200, <.100 for June and <.200 over the past 3 seasons/600+ AB's.

PhillipsBubba
06-25-2010, 08:43 PM
Can we save any drastic lineup changes until after our current hot streak ends?

I agree...if it ain't broke....

JP has never been a high OBP guy so let's just keep hands-off until something bad develops.

Ranger
06-25-2010, 09:32 PM
Not much choice other than Pierre.
With Walker and Guillen running the show, this will be a free swining team....and thus low obp. Just the way it is.

Exactly how do Walker and Guillen make this a "free-swinging" team?

Separating the most successful/cohesive part of your lineup is less acceptable. Both Rios and Konerko, and the entire lineup as a result, become less dangerous when separated.

Correct. And so is this:

There is a school of thought holding that the most successful batting order has the hitters 1 through 9 hitting in descending order of their on-base percentage. A variation of this theory put Nick Swisher in the White Sox leadoff spot at the beginning of the 2009 season.

Treating on-base percentage in such a way, however, ignores the influence your batting order has on on-base percentage. Also, an on-base percentage for the season doesn't guarantee performance for a single game. For example, Thursday, Mark Kotsay had an on-base percentage of .750, but he walked when Lowe pitched around him with first base open to get to Konerko. In the eighth, the Braves bullpen attacked Kotsay with first base open, getting him out before Konerko got the two-out hit with a runner at second, driving himself in in the process.

Jim Thome over his career has been a great on-base percentage hitter, but he has been more likely to walk with first base open than leading off an inning. Regardless, Thome leading off doesn't help your team as much as if he hits with men on base, unless you're removing him for a pinch runner. This season, the best on-base percentage hitter on the White Sox is Paul Konerko at .397. His OBP is .403 leading off innings, but no one would suggest batting Konerko leadoff.

Kotsay actually might have been a good leadoff hitter against Lowe, but Kotsay getting on base didn't have the same effect that Juan Pierre getting on base would have. When Pierre gets on base, he not only forces the pitcher to pitch out of the stretch, but he causes a distraction that some hitters are better able of take advantage of. If Pierre is on first or even if he is on second with less than two out, Ramirez is a good hitter to be hitting behind him because the pitcher is unlikely to attack Ramirez with breaking balls and off-speed pitches. The averages don't exist in isolation.

I have no problem with Pierre leading off because I believe he improves the hitters behind him when he does get on base. I also don't believe his current averages reflect what he will do for the remainder of the season.

Excellent post.

Yeah, 6 year old stats are definitely relevant to this discussion. :rolleyes:

Mark Mulder started the 2004 All-Star Game for the AL, LET'S GET HIM OVER HERE.

That's not what he said. What he said was that there is, indeed, a history of Kotsay producing. Contrary to the assertion that he does not.

mzh
06-25-2010, 09:43 PM
That's not what he said. What he said was that there is, indeed, a history of Kotsay producing. Contrary to the assertion that he does not.
Regardless, the correct point to be made is that Kotsay has not consistently produced while playing everyday recently enough for it to matter.

EDIT: I'm not hating on Kotsay, I just think that he would look so much better if we would get some better options and move him to the role he should be in.

whitesox4eva
06-25-2010, 09:52 PM
can we save any drastic lineup changes until after our current hot streak ends?

+1

TheVulture
06-25-2010, 09:56 PM
EDIT: I'm not hating on Kotsay, I just think that he would look so much better if we would get some better options and move him to the role he should be in.

We already have better options. The first one is the ninth spot in the batting order.

DonnieDarko
06-26-2010, 02:46 AM
If Pierre is on first or even if he is on second with less than two out, Ramirez is a good hitter to be hitting behind him because the pitcher is unlikely to attack Ramirez with breaking balls and off-speed pitches. The averages don't exist in isolation.

Whoever said this, thank you for voicing my thoughts that I've had for so long. Ramirez, while he cannot bunt to save his life, is probably the best #2 hitter we have if only because of the fact that he's best when pitched fastballs...and with Pierre on 1st or 2nd with 0-1 outs, Ramirez is going to see more fastballs. Put him in a situation where he's more likely to succeed and all that.

I think that after this streak ends, Ozzie should seriously consider doing that on a more more full-time basis, if only to see if he would flourish there again.

hawkjt
06-26-2010, 09:07 AM
Whoever said this, thank you for voicing my thoughts that I've had for so long. Ramirez, while he cannot bunt to save his life, is probably the best #2 hitter we have if only because of the fact that he's best when pitched fastballs...and with Pierre on 1st or 2nd with 0-1 outs, Ramirez is going to see more fastballs. Put him in a situation where he's more likely to succeed and all that.

I think that after this streak ends, Ozzie should seriously consider doing that on a more more full-time basis, if only to see if he would flourish there again.


This does make some sense for the reasons you cite.
Plus, Alexei is over his hump months of April and May and generally hits decent the rest of the way.
Maybe, if force fed the basics of the responsibilities of hitting second,Alexei would get a bit better at it.
He sees a steady diet of breaking balls off the outside corner..so if they continue that,maybe he learns to go with the pitch to the right side,and that moves Juan over.

DonnieDarko
06-26-2010, 10:14 AM
He's been getting better at laying off that breaking ball on the outside corner, too. Hell, he's on pace for his best year of Walks yet...

Nellie_Fox
06-27-2010, 01:35 AM
Alexi is over his hump months of April and May and generally hits decent the rest of the way.
Maybe, if force fed the basics of the responsibilities of hitting second,Alexi would get a bit better at it.Who?

Lillian
06-29-2010, 07:17 AM
There is one other reason that Juan Pierre is not good enough to bat lead off for this team.
In the A. L. the lead off hitter often comes to bat with men on base. Without the automatic outs at the bottom of the order, there are too many RBI opportunities to exploit to settle for a guy who isn't a good clutch hitter.
Pierre doesn't get on base enough, rarely gets an extra base hit, and can't drive in a run. All he can do is steal a base.
He would be fine as a pinch runner, but he is not a good lead off hitter.

The Sox should bring up De Aza and let him lead off and play left field. He's not only a decent hitter with a little pop, but he can also steal a base. His defense is good enough to play CF, and in left he would be way above league average.
He went 5 for 6 with 2 doubles, last night at Charlotte.
That gives him a .476 avg. and .532 OBP over his last 10 games, and brings his season average up to .320 with a .403 OBP.
He's also 9 for 9 in stolen bases.
And the bonus here is that De Aza has been even better vs. RHP, which could help fill the void of left handed hitting on this squad.

You might find this link interesting:

http://soxbronzetitan.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/fangraphs-on-sox-of-alejandro-de-aza/

russ99
06-29-2010, 09:18 AM
Pierre doesn't get on base enough, rarely gets an extra base hit, and can't drive in a run. All he can do is steal a base.
He would be fine as a pinch runner, but he is not a good lead off hitter.

The Sox should bring up De Aza and let him lead off and play left field. He's not only a decent hitter with a little pop, but he can also steal a base. His defense is good enough to play CF, and in left he would be way above league average.
He went 5 for 6 with 2 doubles, last night at Charlotte.
That gives him a .476 avg. and .532 OBP over his last 10 games, and brings his season average up to .320 with a .403 OBP.
He's also 9 for 9 in sb
I'm a huge fan of DeAza bit what a guy does in AAA has little bearing on if he can hit big league pitching. DeAza should be a bench OF if we didn't have Jones/Kotsay on the bench.

What you're expecting Pierre to do is something a handful of leadoff hitters can do.

What he does do is not strike out and put the ball in play. He's also leading the league in SB. I'd bet if he can get his average up to .280-.295 people wouldn't want to replace him.

Lillian
06-29-2010, 10:14 AM
I'm a huge fan of DeAza bit what a guy does in AAA has little bearing on if he can hit big league pitching. DeAza should be a bench OF if we didn't have Jones/Kotsay on the bench.

What you're expecting Pierre to do is something a handful of leadoff hitters can do.

What he does do is not strike out and put the ball in play. He's also leading the league in SB. I'd bet if he can get his average up to .280-.295 people wouldn't want to replace him.


You're right, if he can get his average up to .280 -.295, I wouldn't be as eager to replace him, and most of the other Sox fans wouldn't either.
However, that's a big "if". More important than the average, is his OBP.
If that gets up to .340 or better, I'll stop advocating a change.

Either way, if De Aza keeps hitting, I'd like to see him get a shot at some playing time on this team, and Pierre is the obvious guy to replace. They're both lead off hitters.

Domeshot17
06-29-2010, 10:19 AM
Kotsay has to be replaced first, Trade for a lefty bat, bring up DeAza to be the 4th OF, waive good bye to unrproductive tandem of Kotsay and Jones and then worry about Pierre.

pythons007
06-29-2010, 10:21 AM
You're right, if he can get his average up to .280 -.295, I wouldn't be as eager to replace him, and most of the other Sox fans wouldn't either.
However, that's a big "if". More important than the average, is his OBP.
If that gets up to .340 or better, I'll stop advocating a change.

Either way, if De Aza keeps hitting, I'd like to see him get a shot at some playing time on this team, and Pierre is the obvious guy to replace. They're both lead off hitters.

The chances of him getting it that high are very slim, but you need to adjust your time frame. Taking the whole year for all Sox players at this point is stupid. The whole team was basically tanking minus Danks, Konerko and Rios.

See how he has been playing for the past month and a half. That should show you what he's been doing lately.

russ99
06-29-2010, 12:19 PM
The thing with Pierre is that he doesn't walk very much, so his OBP is going to be more tied to his batting average.

So expecting a typical leadoff hitter's OBP from him is probably not going to happen.

I've been happy with his play so far, just wish he'd get a hit or two a night to kick that average up more.

SCCWS
06-29-2010, 12:46 PM
You're right, if he can get his average up to .280 -.295, I wouldn't be as eager to replace him, and most of the other Sox fans wouldn't either.
However, that's a big "if". More important than the average, is his OBP.
If that gets up to .340 or better, I'll stop advocating a change.

.

In 10 years, Pierre has always hit in the 290 range. So we need to leave him alone and he will be there by season end.

Tragg
06-29-2010, 12:50 PM
Exactly how do Walker and Guillen make this a "free-swinging" team?



From their coaching, their talent evaluation, their love of swing-at-everything players who can't hit a lick (Wise, ERstad, Kotsay), running off the one high-OBP player that Williams brought on the team (Swisher), from picking Owens over Sweeney (another nice piece of talent evaluation) to Ozzie's comments that mock obp, to the under-appreciation of Thome and Frank Thomas. As players Guillen and Walkers were free swingers. And most importantly- the Sox have been a free swinging team since the moment Guillen came on board.
That's my evidence. So let me ask this...what evidence is there that they value plate discipline?

Lillian
06-29-2010, 01:22 PM
In 10 years, Pierre has always hit in the 290 range. So we need to leave him alone and he will be there by season end.

I'm sorry, but I remain skeptical. He has never played in the A.L.
And remember, even though he has always hit around .290, he has rarely had a high OBP.

The other thing that no one seems to talk about is that, after the first lead off at bat, the rest of the game may find him coming up with guys on base. In the American League, following behind capable hitters in the lower third of the order, you should be able to drive in a run. He is just such a slap hitter, that I can't get excited about him.

russ99
06-29-2010, 01:27 PM
From their coaching, their talent evaluation, their love of swing-at-everything players who can't hit a lick (Wise, ERstad, Kotsay), running off the one high-OBP player that Williams brought on the team (Swisher), from picking Owens over Sweeney (another nice piece of talent evaluation) to Ozzie's comments that mock obp, to the under-appreciation of Thome and Frank Thomas. As players Guillen and Walkers were free swingers. And most importantly- the Sox have been a free swinging team since the moment Guillen came on board.
That's my evidence. So let me ask this...what evidence is there that they value plate discipline?

This the way I look at it: The Sox have always valued scouts over numbers. They were one of the last teams to get a stats guy in house.

They don't subscribe to any "Moneyball" theories, which is fine, since "Moneyball" only gave teams an advantage for a year or two. Besides, the Sox won a title their way, and the "Moneyball" teams (A's, Jays, Dodgers) haven't. The only team close is the Red Sox, and any team could win with their major league, drafting and development budgets.

I see it as an overall organizational philosophy in place long before Kenny and Ozzie were here and will be in place long after they're gone unless the Reinsdorf family sells the team.

But hey, it's easier to just blame Ozzie and Kenny for perceived slights against certain players.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-29-2010, 01:28 PM
There is one other reason that Juan Pierre is not good enough to bat lead off for this team.
In the A. L. the lead off hitter often comes to bat with men on base. Without the automatic outs at the bottom of the order, there are too many RBI opportunities to exploit to settle for a guy who isn't a good clutch hitter.
Pierre doesn't get on base enough, rarely gets an extra base hit, and can't drive in a run. All he can do is steal a base.
He would be fine as a pinch runner, but he is not a good lead off hitter.
/ (http://soxbronzetitan.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/fangraphs-on-sox-of-alejandro-de-aza/)

BINGO!

A cursory look at other AL leadoff speed merchant types reveals the Pierre is far and away the worst at driving in runners:

Pods- 31 RBI
Rajai Davis -21 RBI
Span - 29 RBI
Pierre - 11 RBI

To find someone similarly inept, you have to go the NL and find Nyjer Morgan with 11 RBI hitting behind the bottom of the Nationals.

While it's not his "job" to drive in runs, that doesn't make those missed opportunities any less valuable. Additionally, while he may lead the world in stolen bases, he's only tied for 40th in runs scored (!) with only 38.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 01:38 PM
This the way I look at it: The Sox have always valued scouts over numbers. They were one of the last teams to get a stats guy in house.

They don't subscribe to any "Moneyball" theories, which is fine, since "Moneyball" only gave teams an advantage for a year or two. Besides, the Sox won a title their way, and the "Moneyball" teams (A's, Jays, Dodgers) haven't. The only team close is the Red Sox, and any team could win with their major league, drafting and development budgets.

I see it as an overall organizational philosophy in place long before Kenny and Ozzie were here and will be in place long after they're gone unless the Reinsdorf family sells the team.

But hey, it's easier to just blame Ozzie and Kenny for perceived slights against certain players.
Link?

Boondock Saint
06-29-2010, 01:43 PM
BINGO!

A cursory look at other AL leadoff speed merchant types reveals the Pierre is far and away the worst at driving in runners:

Pods- 31 RBI
Rajai Davis -21 RBI
Span - 29 RBI
Pierre - 11 RBI

To find someone similarly inept, you have to go the NL and find Nyjer Morgan with 11 RBI hitting behind the bottom of the Nationals.

While it's not his "job" to drive in runs, that doesn't make those missed opportunities any less valuable. Additionally, while he may lead the world in stolen bases, he's only tied for 40th in runs scored (!) with only 38.

Juan Pierre has had a grand total of 52 at bats with RISP, good enough for 84th in the AL, and a tie for 167th in MLB. Pods, Span, and Davis have all had more AB with RISP. He isn't hitting well in those situations, but let's not act like there's been an excess of guys getting on for him.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 01:45 PM
Juan Pierre has had a grand total of 52 at bats with RISP, good enough for 84th in the AL, and a tie for 167th in MLB. He isn't hitting well in those situations, but let's not act like there's been an excess of guys getting on for him.
Exactly. There are many other ways to show how terrible Pierre's been at the plate this season.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-29-2010, 02:00 PM
Juan Pierre has had a grand total of 52 at bats with RISP, good enough for 84th in the AL, and a tie for 167th in MLB. Pods, Span, and Davis have all had more AB with RISP. He isn't hitting well in those situations, but let's not act like there's been an excess of guys getting on for him.

Pods 72 AB with RISP - 30 RBI
Span 61 AB - 26 RBI
Davis 59 AB - 19 RBI

Pierre 52 AB with RISP - 11 RBI

Still horrible.

Boondock Saint
06-29-2010, 02:22 PM
Pods 72 AB with RISP - 30 RBI
Span 61 AB - 26 RBI
Davis 59 AB - 19 RBI

Pierre 52 AB with RISP - 11 RBI

Still horrible.

I'm not even going to regard Davis in this conversation, because he's hitting a whopping .254 with RISP, which is far from impressive. With that said, you've managed to bring up two lead off men with similar skill sets to Pierre that are hitting considerably better than him with RISP. That's not a large number. Also, Pierre has 7 more steals than Pods, while having been caught two less times. And he's stolen twelve more bases than Span, while having been caught stealing eight less times.

Lillian
06-29-2010, 02:28 PM
I'm not even going to regard Davis in this conversation, because he's hitting a whopping .254 with RISP, which is far from impressive. With that said, you've managed to bring up two lead off men with similar skill sets to Pierre that are hitting considerably better than him with RISP. That's not a large number. Also, Pierre has 7 more steals than Pods, while having been caught two less times. And he's stolen twelve more bases than Span, while having been caught stealing eight less times.

Yes, but isn't the primary responsibility of the lead off hitter to get on base? The stolen bases are great, but they're not paramount.

Boondock Saint
06-29-2010, 02:31 PM
Yes, but isn't the primary responsibility of the lead off hitter to get on base? The stolen bases are great, but they're not paramount.

You're making a big deal about one guaranteed at bat a game.

khan
06-29-2010, 02:52 PM
They don't subscribe to any "Moneyball" theories, which is fine, since "Moneyball" only gave teams an advantage for a year or two. Besides, the Sox won a title their way, and the "Moneyball" teams (A's, Jays, Dodgers) haven't. The only team close is the Red Sox, and any team could win with their major league, drafting and development budgets.
I'm curious:

Did you actually read the book, or are you [one of the MANY] who are merely echoing the stupidity that comes out of the dumbasses on ESPN?

In other words, do you actually have any idea as to what "Moneyball" was all about?

pczarapa
06-29-2010, 02:56 PM
exactly. There are many other ways to show how terrible pierre's been at the plate this season.


:d:

russ99
06-29-2010, 03:01 PM
I'm curious:

Did you actually read the book, or are you [one of the MANY] who are merely echoing the stupidity that comes out of the dumbasses on ESPN?

In other words, do you actually have any idea as to what "Moneyball" was all about?

Yup, I read it cover to cover.

IMO: OBP is a tool, not the be all and end all of player evaluation.

The reason the A's were successful at their approach is because nobody else had access to that information, a statistical "bubble", so to speak.

khan
06-29-2010, 03:07 PM
Yup, I read it cover to cover.

IMO: OBP is a tool, not the be all and end all of player evaluation.

The reason the A's were successful at their approach is because nobody else had access to that information, a statistical "bubble", so to speak.

Actually, Moneyball is all about finding undervaluation in the game, and exploiting it. It really isn't about OBP.

OBP simply happened to be what was then-undervalued. Finding what is undervalued in the game continues to go on in MLB, as well as in pretty much every professional league on the planet. The A's merely used a different tool, that being statistical analysis, to accomplish this end.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-29-2010, 03:08 PM
I'm not even going to regard Davis in this conversation, because he's hitting a whopping .254 with RISP, which is far from impressive. With that said, you've managed to bring up two lead off men with similar skill sets to Pierre that are hitting considerably better than him with RISP. That's not a large number. Also, Pierre has 7 more steals than Pods, while having been caught two less times. And he's stolen twelve more bases than Span, while having been caught stealing eight less times.

I pointed out that even by the low standards set by speedy leadoff men, Pierre is horrible at driving in runs. I also pointed out that despite all his steals, he hasn't scored all that many runs(he's tied with Juan Rivera in runs scored). YOU tried to point out that he hasn't had that many men on base and I demonstrated that even taking that into account, he is worse than his peers at driving in runs. Now you are just flailing around.

Boondock Saint
06-29-2010, 03:10 PM
I pointed out that even by the low standards set by speedy leadoff men, Pierre is horrible at driving in runs. I also pointed out that despite all his steals, he hasn't scored all that many runs(he's tied with Juan Rivera in runs scored). YOU tried to point out that he hasn't had that many men on base and I demonstrated that even taking that into account, he is worse than his peers at driving in runs. Now you are just flailing around.

And even by the low standards set by power hitting first basemen, Paul Konerko sucks at stealing bases. Good thing that isn't what he's paid to do, right?

And the reason he's so low in runs scored is because the entire team took April off.

Tragg
06-30-2010, 02:24 AM
But hey, it's easier to just blame Ozzie and Kenny for perceived slights against certain players.
OBP is a basic statistic and while is the basis for some sabremetric analysis, is very basic. The most consistent obp team year after year? The yankees, hardly a bastion of sabremetrics.
So talk of moneyball and shapiro and daniels et al is really irrelevant. (Boston, winners of 2 recent WS, is an adherent, FWIW).
The WS was won with pitching and defense; it was one despite the swing-at-everything offensive approach.
I ask again. What evidence is there that Guillen values plate discipline?

WhiteSox5187
06-30-2010, 02:37 AM
Yup, I read it cover to cover.

IMO: OBP is a tool, not the be all and end all of player evaluation.

The reason the A's were successful at their approach is because nobody else had access to that information, a statistical "bubble", so to speak.

Teams have been talking about OBP for a long time, it just wasn't always referred to as OBP. For years it was just referred to as how often a guy walks, but as early as the late 1970s it was being talked about, especially for top of the order guys. Here's an article where Bill Veeck talks about what Harry Chappas could bring to the table, including "a high on base percentage at the top of the order." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094724/index.htm Something that surprisingly, Chappas possessed in the minors at the time.

Lillian
07-12-2010, 08:53 AM
Could we please revive this thread?
I'm so tired of watching Pierre.
He did start to look a little better for a while there, but he's just such a "Punch and Judy" slap hitter, that it seems like he's incapable of anything beyond a "seeing eye" ground ball single, a bunt, or a Texas leaguer.

Not that he has been all that much better vs RHP, but these are his up to date stats vs. LH pitching:
In 83 AB he has hit just 1 double.
He has 10 Runs Scored, and 3 RBI's.

You can't steal enough bases to make up for that kind of lack of production. In fact he has just 5 stolen bases vs LHP.
Considering that his OBP is actually a little higher vs. LHP, that's not very impressive either. Of course, it's generally harder to steal off of southpaws.

I'd prefer to see someone else hit lead off, with an emphasis on OBP and run production, rather than on stolen bases.
This team has the chance to be very dangerous the rest of the summer.
If Beckham gets back on track, and Ramirez continues to heat up with the weather, as he seems to do every year, this team could be dangerous from top to bottom of the order. The stolen base is much less important at the Cell in the summer, when balls are flying out of the yard.

I'd rather see an outfield of Quentin, Rios and Jones.
Let Teahen and Viciedo platoon at DH
Keep Omar at 3rd with as much playing time as he can handle, and leave him in the #2 hole. He can execute the hit and run, which is a better option for this team than the stolen base.

We discussed other options at lead off. If the guy can get on, and at least distract the pitcher, he doesn't need to steal a ton of bases. Beckham or Rios are both potentially good candidates for that spot.
They both hit lots of doubles. Wouldn't you love to see Omar sacrificing them to third base, after a lead off double, or executing a hit and run following a lead off single?

I know, you guys think it's crazy to take the RBI opportunities away from Rios by having bat leadoff, but remember, he would get more at bats, and he could have lots of chances to drive in Beckham and Ramirez.
And of course, Rios can steal a base.

We have other middle of the order hitters now with TCQ back on track.
I also continue to believe that Jones will produce if he is left in the lineup to keep his timing sharp. He cannot play two or three times a week, and be effective with that long swing of his.

I wouldn't mind giving Lillibridge a chance to leadoff. He seems to have changed his approach, and we've all been wowed by the results. At least can drive a ball.
Then there is my guy, De Aza at AAA. Please, anyone else! We have to be able to do better than Pierre.
As I pointed out before, the Sox have good enough hitters at the bottom of the order, that it would be much better to have the lead off guy be able to drive them in. Pierre just doesn't seem to be able to do that.
I'd love to see him included in a trade for another bottom of the rotation starter. Is there any team out there desperate for a lead off hitter?

I know it's not fair to criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but don't you wish we had Ely and the $5 million back, instead of Pierre.

NoNeckEra
07-12-2010, 09:11 AM
I'm so tired of watching Pierre..........

........I know it's not fair to criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but don't you wish we had Ely and the $5 million back, instead of Pierre.
Yes, we're all a little tired.
But as the expression goes, he is the least of our worries, at this point.
Could he possibly get any worse? His career #s say he will improve, and he's exactly the kind of veteran you'll need in the playoffs, and the kind of guy that could upgrade his game when the team really needs it(as opposed to regular season).

I wouldn't mind seeing a shake up occasionally against lefties, but not platoon.

As for Ely, yes, hindsight is 20-20, but how many here whined about the deal when it was made?

GAsoxfan
07-12-2010, 09:18 AM
I know it's not fair to criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but don't you wish we had Ely and the $5 million back, instead of Pierre.

No. Pierre's OBP has improved every month (April - .260/May - .339/June - .342/July (obviously incomplete) - .395). Plus, Ely's ERA is up to 4.63. I don't think fourteen starts gives us "hindsight" yet.

Lillian
07-12-2010, 09:31 AM
No. Pierre's OBP has improved every month (April - .260/May - .339/June - .342/July (obviously incomplete) - .395). Plus, Ely's ERA is up to 4.63. I don't think fourteen starts gives us "hindsight" yet.

I didn't notice that Ely had come back down to earth.
Nevertheless, I'd even just rather the Sox had the $5 million.
Pierre just isn't my kind of player. He's much better suited for the N.L.

doublem23
07-12-2010, 09:31 AM
I know it's not fair to criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but don't you wish we had Ely and the $5 million back, instead of Pierre.

Ely has been awful since June, in his last 7 starts, he's allowed 45 hits, 30 runs, 28 ER, walked 17, and struck out 22 in 33.2 innings. That's an ERA of 7.49 and an oppoent's slash line of .333/.406/.563. I honestly fail to see what, if any help, Ely could have given the White Sox if he were still in the organization.

I'm not in love with Pierre, but the Sox are firing on all cylinders right now, and even though Juan hits for absolutely 0 power, he's been finding his way on base lately. Why mess with a team that's won 25 of it's last 30? Sometimes the sum of a baseball team is better than its individual parts.

Zisk77
07-12-2010, 09:47 AM
Yup, I read it cover to cover.

IMO: OBP is a tool, not the be all and end all of player evaluation.

The reason the A's were successful at their approach is because nobody else had access to that information, a statistical "bubble", so to speak.

Actually the 3 biggest reasons the A's were succesful was Hudson, Mulder, and Zito in their unhittable prime.

Moses_Scurry
07-12-2010, 09:56 AM
Actually the 3 biggest reasons the A's were succesful was Hudson, Mulder, and Zito in their unhittable prime.

Bingo. You can add Harden and Haren as well. Here's a question about the A's I have. Speed and defense is now the undervalued commodity as OBP was before, so the A's have a bunch of speedy guys now. However, if I recall correctly from reading the book, Billy Beane HATED his guys stealing bases, even if they were able to do it successfully. Why would he want them doing it now just because it is the undervalued skill? If guys could do it before, why did he dislike it so much? Does he like it now, or does he still hate it, but wants the guys to do it because he knows that is what they do? Hopefully my question makes sense.

pythons007
07-12-2010, 10:06 AM
Lillian you keep ripping Pierre and quoting stats that he has. Why not compare what he's doing to the likes of his own kind? Compare him to other leadoff hitters in the league. You stated that he has 3 RBI, thats something he's not going to do, he's not a run producer. He's not a gap hitter either. If he gets doubles its because he beat the corner infielders down the line.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/364231-the-best-mlb-leadoff-hitters-of-2010#page/9

They list Pierre as an honorable mention after listing 9 leadoff hitters, one of which is no longer a leadoff hitter Figgins.

Gripe all you want, but Pierre is in the top half if not better for lead off hitters.

If you subtract out April Pierre has a .279 average and a .330 OBP 38 Runs 23 stolen bases. I understand that I'm taking out a month of stats but since April this is what you're getting. He is a career .298 hitter so expect that to go up.

You were also saying take him out against lefties. He's a career .301 hitter with a .352 OBP against them compared to a .297 with a .344 OBP against righties.

Also, his numbers for doubles show that he's on pace for his low to mid 20 in that category as well.

Pierre is something we should not be worried about. I'm not sure if you're bitching strictly out of hatred for him or what.

Standing Ovation
07-12-2010, 10:17 AM
He gets to almost every ball in the outfield. I seriously doubt that any of our pitchers want Pierre sitting on the bench.

Lillian
07-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Listen guys, I don't dislike Pierre as a person. He seems like a real team player, and a very hard worker.

I just don't like his style of baseball. To me, he should be a pinch runner.

Look, if he could hit like his career stats from the N.L., I'd be just thrilled.
It just doesn't seem like he will do that. If he ends up with an OBP 10 points or more below his most recent 3 year stint with the Dodgers, he's going to end up with a .329 OBP. To me that is just not good enough for a one dimensional lead off hitter on an A.L. team, with post season aspirations.

I'll root for him, and hope that he can make me a believer, but I'm not holding my breath.

Standing Ovation
07-12-2010, 10:31 AM
If you're into the Sabermetics thing, he's saved us 12 runs (over average replacement player) so far YTD. As long as he's in LF and not CF, he's valuable.

On the flip side, Quentin is -14 runs for us in RF.

There's got to be balance/ a trade off somewhere.

pythons007
07-12-2010, 10:46 AM
If you're into the Sabermetics thing, he's saved us 12 runs (over average replacement player) so far YTD. As long as he's in LF and not CF, he's valuable.

On the flip side, Quentin is -14 runs for us in RF.

There's got to be balance/ a trade off somewhere.

Trade off would have Quentin at DH and Jones in RF. I still don't know why this isn't the defense outfield. Sure I know Andruw hasn't been hitting very well, but he could easily save us some plays defensively. He's hit some very big homeruns, and he can swipe a bag here and there.

Shoeless_Jim
07-12-2010, 11:05 AM
Unless Pujols Longoria and Fielder are hitting in the #3 and #4 and # 5 spots and Pedroia is in the 2-hole. I wouldn't mind moving Longoria up to #3 and pushing Rios down to #4 though if the Sox wanna try leading off with Pujols since his OBP is so high.

:rolling:

Lillian
07-12-2010, 11:29 AM
Some of these arguments are simply not convincing.
Look, the object of the offensive game is to score runs. You can contribute to that end by either getting on base, or driving in runs.
This guy does neither.

You want to compare him to the other lead off hitters? Fine, compare him to the guys filling that role for other teams in contention in the A.L.

Guys like Span, Gardner, Jackson, Andrus, Aybar, Zobrist and Ellsbury all not only have higher OBP's, but they also have a few extra base hits.

Those of you who argue that he will eventually end up with his career numbers have more faith than I do. I hope that you are all right.

Moses_Scurry
07-12-2010, 11:31 AM
I am firmly in the camp of CQ needing to be the DH for the rest of the year. Every time a ball is hit to him, I cringe that he will be done for the season. Kenny should be focusing on a big bat that also plays adequate outfield.

21stcenturySox
07-12-2010, 11:42 AM
Some of these arguments are simply not convincing.
Look, the object of the offensive game is to score runs. You can contribute to that end by either getting on base, or driving in runs.
This guy does neither. . .


He also leads the league in stolen bases. His presence on the basepaths arguably is the main driver behind all of the fastballs Paulie and Rios have been driving over the walls and into the gaps. In addition he fouls off a lot of pitches as Hawk repeatedly points out calling him "Mr. Souvenir." His ability to distract the pitcher can't be documented with any stats.


Guys like Span, Gardner, Jackson, Andrus, Aybar, Zobrist and Ellsbury all not only have higher OBP's, but they also have a few extra base hits.We don't have any of these players. Nor is it likely we'll land any of them soon.

Your argument that the Sox should bench the premier base stealer in the majors reminds of the argument somewhere that Konerko was not a great first baseman due to his "lack of range."

pythons007
07-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Some of these arguments are simply not convincing.
Look, the object of the offensive game is to score runs. You can contribute to that end by either getting on base, or driving in runs.
This guy does neither.

You want to compare him to the other lead off hitters? Fine, compare him to the guys filling that role for other teams in contention in the A.L.

Guys like Span, Gardner, Jackson, Andrus, Aybar, Zobrist and Ellsbury all not only have higher OBP's, but they also have a few extra base hits.

Those of you who argue that he will eventually end up with his career numbers have more faith than I do. I hope that you are all right.

Typcially, leadoff hitter are not going to be driving in runs. Its just not the nature of the position. Garnder I don't think has been leading off very much, and the Yankee lineup is stacked so his numbers will definately be inflated.

This is starting to sound a lot like Billy Beane and his awesome OBP arguement. In any case Pierre single is almost the same result in a 2B. 32 times he singled and turned it into a double. So really what is the difference? He gets himself into scoring position with his legs instead of his bat. I also like to see him score from 1st on a double.

I mean if you're whole arguement is for a high OBP guy leading off, then you're essentially stating Rios ank Konerko are prime candidates for leadoff. I know this isn't what youre saying, but OBP is quite often overrated.

Typically, what I look for in a leadoff hitter is somenoe who can score 90-100 Runs hit near .300 and steal bases. That is what I look for in a leadoff hitter everything else is bonus.

PennStater98r
07-12-2010, 12:17 PM
It may be time to think of replacing Pierre as the lead off hitter.
Although he's hit better of late, his On Base Percentage is completely unacceptable for a lead off hitter. It seems pretty unrealistic to expect him to produce any better than he has over his last 5 seasons in the National League, during which time his OBP was only around .330.

He doesn't have the ability to drive the ball in the gaps for extra base hits, especially with the small alleys in the Cell. He does see a pretty high number of pitches per plate appearance, and hits a lot of foul balls, which is a positive attribute for the lead off hitter, but he simply does not represent the best "table setting" option for the Sox. While providing a stolen base threat is a valuable attribute, it is not as important as getting on base, which is the number one priority of a lead off hitter.

Another point to consider is that the lead off hitter gets more total plate appearances than anyone in the lineup. Can you really afford to give the most at bats to a guy with a way below league average OBP?

Fortunately, the Sox don't have to look to acquire a lead off hitter, as the team already has a much better option. Rios processes all of the desirable attributes of a lead off hitter. He has the ability to steal a base, in fact he's close to Pierre's League leading production in that department.
He's always been a doubles machine, and is currently leading the Sox in that department, with 17.
I will concede that historically, he hasn't been a very high OBP guy, but this year he seems to have improved that part of his game, and is currently second only to Konerko, with a .372 OBP. In fact, he's closer to Konerko than to the third ranking OBP on the Sox.
Perhaps he's taking more pitches, and maybe that has in part been responsible for his overall offensive improvement this season.

Just ask yourself, would you rather give the highest number of at bats in the season to Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios.

Of course, the biggest argument against Rios leading off is that it takes him out of the middle of the order. However, I'm assuming that K.W. will find that missing LH power bat to sandwich in between Konerko and Quentin. If the Sox can add that missing piece, then you have the luxury of batting Rios first, and move Pierre to 9th. If that left handed acquisition is an outfielder, then you could bench Pierre.
I personally would still rather have Jones in the line up than Pierre, but that's because I'd prefer to have the run production, than another stolen base threat. I understand that his average has come way down, but that hasn't been helped by his infrequent playing time. Power hitters need consistent at bats. Remember, this is the time year when balls begin to fly out of The Cell, and Jones is a guy who can hit homers in bunches.

Here is a suggested lineup with Rios at leadoff, and Carlos Delgado as my pick for a LH power bat. I also left Vizquel at third, even after Teahen comes off the DL. I really like Omar in the "2 hole", and love his stabilizing effect on the left side of the infield, although of course he can't play every day:

CF Rios
3B Vizquel
LF Quentin
DH Delgado
1B Konerko
C A.J.
RF Jones
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez

Pierre can pinch run for Konerko and Delgado.
Kotsay becomes the LH hitter off the bench, although I don't really know for whom he would pinch hit.
I haven't considered what to do with Teahen. If he could start hitting, maybe they could platoon him with Jones, and give Mark some playing time in the outfield, where he wouldn't be such a defensive liability.

This would be where I make farty noises with my thumbs down.

russ99
07-12-2010, 12:29 PM
I find it hilarious that people complain about Pierre's OBP.

They guy just plain doesn't walk, he puts the ball in play, for good or bad.

But, yeah let's throw away the major league SB leader who's hit .316 this month because he doesn't walk.

Besides, Rios at lead-off would be complete waste of his abilities.

Dick Allen
07-12-2010, 12:38 PM
JP is still hitting almost 50 points below his career average. Logic would dictate that he's going to hit better than he has, which I think has already started.

DonnieDarko
07-12-2010, 12:42 PM
Once again, the topic creator should be ashamed.

This topic sucks. Where's that .jpg?

Lillian
07-12-2010, 01:06 PM
Alright, I give up. You guys are all very pleased and happy with Juan Pierre, and apparently no one seems to care much about his flaws as a lead off hitter.

I understand that he fouls off pitches, and steal bases. That's all just fine. I just don't get excited about a guy who doesn't get on base much, nor drives in anyone else who does. For me, it's got to be one or the other. As they say, "you can't steal first base".

However, since this was my "stupid" thread, I'll stop beating this "dead horse".
Thanks for all of your participation in this discussion.

Go Sox, and go Juan. I'm rootin' for ya!

Coops4Aces
07-12-2010, 01:08 PM
Alright, I give up. You guys are all very pleased and happy with Juan Pierre, and apparently no one seems to care much about his flaws as a lead off hitter.

I understand that he fouls off pitches, and steal bases. That's all just fine. I just don't get excited about a guy who doesn't get on base much, nor drives in anyone else who does. For me, it's got to be one or the other. As they say, "you can't steal first base".

However, since this was my "stupid" thread, I'll stop beating this "dead horse".
Thanks for all of your participation in this discussion.

Go Sox, and go Juan. I'm rootin' for ya!

Not everyone is an all-star, that's all there is to it

Moses_Scurry
07-12-2010, 02:34 PM
Alright, I give up. You guys are all very pleased and happy with Juan Pierre, and apparently no one seems to care much about his flaws as a lead off hitter.

I understand that he fouls off pitches, and steal bases. That's all just fine. I just don't get excited about a guy who doesn't get on base much, nor drives in anyone else who does. For me, it's got to be one or the other. As they say, "you can't steal first base".

However, since this was my "stupid" thread, I'll stop beating this "dead horse".
Thanks for all of your participation in this discussion.

Go Sox, and go Juan. I'm rootin' for ya!

I'd welcome a new leadoff hitter that is an upgrade. I just don't like any of the in-house options, and I don't know who is even available to acquire that would fit.

LITTLE NELL
07-12-2010, 03:45 PM
I expected around .300 from Pierre and he is going to have to have a great second half to get there.
Am I happy with him right now? No, but there is no one that I can see taking his place.
Another note, the leadoff hitter for the 59 Sox was Luis Aparicio, he hit .257 that year with 56 stolen bases. Pierre right now is at .257 and on a pace for 60 stolen bases. Aparicio scored 98 runs in 59, Pierre is on pace for 86.

TheVulture
07-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Pierre has reached base 97 times in his last 63 games for a .349 OBP.

mjmcend
07-12-2010, 04:17 PM
Alright, I give up. You guys are all very pleased and happy with Juan Pierre, and apparently no one seems to care much about his flaws as a lead off hitter.

I understand that he fouls off pitches, and steal bases. That's all just fine. I just don't get excited about a guy who doesn't get on base much, nor drives in anyone else who does. For me, it's got to be one or the other. As they say, "you can't steal first base".

However, since this was my "stupid" thread, I'll stop beating this "dead horse".
Thanks for all of your participation in this discussion.

Go Sox, and go Juan. I'm rootin' for ya!

I, for one, am not really happy with Juan Pierre. I would have preferred to have not acquired him in the first place. However, as it sits now, I do not see a better option that would strengthen the overall team. I agree that Rios would be an upgrade at the leadoff spot because, quite simply, he is a better hitter than Juan. However, whoever we put at #3 would be a major downgrade. If Juan is to play everyday, then obviously his skill set translates best to the leadoff spot. And if we bench him than Kotsay and Jones will play everyday. And to me, Pierre in the leadoff spot is better than running both of those guys out there every day in run producing positions.

Also, if we are to make an acquisition, I would prefer it be a middle-of-the-order type to push both Kotsay and Jones to the bench full time. I doubt we are in the position to make two major acquistions this season, so I would focus the resources on that lefty power hitter. So, in summation, I think Juan Pierre is a problem on this team, but not nearly the biggest problem so all there is to do is hope his BA and OBP keeps trending up.

kobo
07-12-2010, 04:41 PM
That's all just fine. I just don't get excited about a guy who doesn't get on base much, nor drives in anyone else who does.
Lead off hitters are not expected to drive in runs, they are expected to get on base and create runs. I'll agree with you that his OBP is low and should be better, but aside from that, I think Pierre does a great job in the 1 hole.

Lillian
07-13-2010, 08:42 AM
In reading some of the posts, it looks like a few of you misunderstood my suggestion. I never suggested acquiring another lead off hitter. I agree that this team has other priorities, which are greater than upgrading the lead off hitter. A power left handed bat, and another starter, as insurance against an injury, are much more important.
I’m suggesting that if the Sox could acquire a potent LH bat, they might have in house options to upgrade the lead off spot.
Just plug in the name of your realistic acquisition of some LH hitter with a respectable OBP, who could provide that left handed presence in the middle of the order, probably as a DH. Now construct your line up, leaving the lead off hitter blank:
_________
Vizquel or Beckham if he's back on track
Quentin
Konerko
LH Acquisition to likely DH
Jones
A. J.
Ramirez
Beckham

Now you plug Rios in at the top of the order, and he bats behind Ramirez and Beckham. That should give him at least as many RBI opportunities as he is now getting, batting behind Pierre and Vizquel. That is the key point. Many of you have argued that it's foolish to "waste" Rios' RBI potential leading off. Think about it. The low OBP of Pierre and Vizquel is not going to provide that many RBI chances for Rios. He would likely have more opportunities to drive in runs following Ramirez and Beckham, provide they start hitting up to their potential. I agree that so far their stats don't validate it, but I guess I just have more faith in their prospects than I do in Pierre and Vizquel.
Rios can steal enough bases to distract the pitcher, and his propensity to hit doubles provides an opportunity for Vizquel to bunt him to third with no out. And of course, he gets a few more at bats than he would get, hitting further down in the line up.

We don't need Rios in the middle of the lineup, which already has an abundance of better power hitters. If you add another power hitter in that LH bat, then the lineup becomes even more potent. Isn't Quentin, Konerko, the new LH power hitter, Jones, and maybe Viciedo enough power? Even Ramirez and Beckham provide additional power at the bottom of the order.

If Pierre is still on the roster, he becomes a pinch runner for Paulie, any time Konerko gets on late in the game.

If Beckham returns to form, you could bat him second, and Viciedo could play 3B, with Omar as a late inning defensive replacement. Viciedo would bat 7th behind A.J., Alexei moving down to 9th.

I didn't discuss Teahen's role, and I'd like to see him included with Pierre and a prospect in a trade to acquire that missing LH bat, or another starter. Morel looks like he might be coming faster than originally thought, and Viciedo appears to be ready to play third now. He has the hands and the arm, and maybe Vizquel can help him with his footwork.

I understand that trading Teahen and Pierre might be difficult, given their contracts, but there are ways to overcome that hurdle.

All of those possibilities are more appealing to me than Pierre, and none of them necessitate trading for a lead off hitter.

Coops4Aces
07-13-2010, 09:47 AM
Can't let this go huh? You don't take Rios out of the 3 spot :kukoo:

doublem23
07-13-2010, 10:13 AM
Can't let this go huh? You don't take Rios out of the 3 spot :kukoo:

I definitely want an RBI guy hitting behind out 2B who is batting .215.

pythons007
07-13-2010, 10:17 AM
In reading some of the posts, it looks like a few of you misunderstood my suggestion. I never suggested acquiring another lead off hitter. I agree that this team has other priorities, which are greater than upgrading the lead off hitter. A power left handed bat, and another starter, as insurance against an injury, are much more important.
I’m suggesting that if the Sox could acquire a potent LH bat, they might have in house options to upgrade the lead off spot.
Just plug in the name of your realistic acquisition of some LH hitter with a respectable OBP, who could provide that left handed presence in the middle of the order, probably as a DH. Now construct your line up, leaving the lead off hitter blank:
_________
Vizquel or Beckham if he's back on track
Quentin
Konerko
LH Acquisition to likely DH
Jones
A. J.
Ramirez
Beckham

Now you plug Rios in at the top of the order, and he bats behind Ramirez and Beckham. That should give him at least as many RBI opportunities as he is now getting, batting behind Pierre and Vizquel. That is the key point. Many of you have argued that it's foolish to "waste" Rios' RBI potential leading off. Think about it. The low OBP of Pierre and Vizquel is not going to provide that many RBI chances for Rios. He would likely have more opportunities to drive in runs following Ramirez and Beckham, provide they start hitting up to their potential. I agree that so far their stats don't validate it, but I guess I just have more faith in their prospects than I do in Pierre and Vizquel.
Rios can steal enough bases to distract the pitcher, and his propensity to hit doubles provides an opportunity for Vizquel to bunt him to third with no out. And of course, he gets a few more at bats than he would get, hitting further down in the line up.

We don't need Rios in the middle of the lineup, which already has an abundance of better power hitters. If you add another power hitter in that LH bat, then the lineup becomes even more potent. Isn't Quentin, Konerko, the new LH power hitter, Jones, and maybe Viciedo enough power? Even Ramirez and Beckham provide additional power at the bottom of the order.

If Pierre is still on the roster, he becomes a pinch runner for Paulie, any time Konerko gets on late in the game.

If Beckham returns to form, you could bat him second, and Viciedo could play 3B, with Omar as a late inning defensive replacement. Viciedo would bat 7th behind A.J., Alexei moving down to 9th.

I didn't discuss Teahen's role, and I'd like to see him included with Pierre and a prospect in a trade to acquire that missing LH bat, or another starter. Morel looks like he might be coming faster than originally thought, and Viciedo appears to be ready to play third now. He has the hands and the arm, and maybe Vizquel can help him with his footwork.

I understand that trading Teahen and Pierre might be difficult, given their contracts, but there are ways to overcome that hurdle.

All of those possibilities are more appealing to me than Pierre, and none of them necessitate trading for a lead off hitter.

That's crazy. So would you bat Pujols leadoff for the Cards? You don't move Rios out of the 3 hole unless your lineup resembles the Yankees. You only move him up in the order if you have the likes of Pujols, Howard, Braun as your 3-5 guys.

In your scenerio, instead of batting him 3rd your suggestion would be to move Beckham and Ramirez up in the lineup and move Pierre down. That would make more sense.

Just because a hitter is a good OBP guy DOES NOT make them a good leadoff hitter. Juan does the untangables. For instance he doesn't swing at the first pitch, he fouls off enough pitches for others to see what the pitcher is throwing, when he does get on he's a menace on the basebaths distracting the pitcher.

You seem to want to have the lineup that resembles the Yankees really bad, for a leadoff hitter to drive in runs.

We all know the object of the game is to score runs, but not every single hitter in your line up is a run producer. You need to face the facts. Ever since we got rid of Ray Durham, we have had a hole in the leadoff spot. The Sox have tried multiple types of players there and it hasn't worked out very well until we acquired Podsednik.

If you ask around fan bases and experts, I'd be willing to bet the definition of a prototypical leadoff hitter would be as I've stated mutliple times on this thread.

hawkjt
07-13-2010, 10:32 AM
I look for Juan to have a big last 75 games. Historically,he has played better in the second half,and has never had a year as bad as he is having.
Last year his on base was over .360,so it is not like he has been in decline. He will be seeing pitchers a second and third time around the second half.
I look for him to hit around .330 the second half,putting his final average around .290 with an on base of at least .340. Another 100 hits,giving him about 185-190 hits for the year, with around 50 walks in over 700 plate appearances...and over 50 stolen bases. His rbis are not in his control unless guys on the bottom start getting on base at a higher clip. But Gordo is looking downright hitterish lately,so he might end up hitting second if his confidence comes all the way back. But,again, as Hawk and Stoney has pointed out, numbers belie the value of Omar hitting second,because he knows exactly what to do,which is half the battle at the second spot.

WizardsofOzzie
07-13-2010, 10:48 AM
Just because a hitter is a good OBP guy DOES NOT make them a good leadoff hitter.
See: Swisher, Nick

UofCSoxFan
07-13-2010, 11:25 AM
See: Swisher, Nick

Hell, Jim Thome always had a good OBP.

I'll admidt I haven't read this whole thread so I apologize if I'm repeating what some have said, but to me Juan Pierre as of late is giving us exactly what I thought he would...He's a slap hitter that won't walk but when he does get singles they often turn into "doubles" with his ability to steal. Even when he doesn't steal, his presence on first base results in Alex Rios and Paulie getting a ton of more fastballs to hit, since if Pierre takes off on an off-speed pitch he's almost guaranteed to grab the bag.

Accordingly, I think Pierre's low OBP and low slugging percentage understate his value. He gets on base less than some but with his speed is more likely to score while on base. He doesn't hit for power, but can turn a bunt hit into 2 or three bases pretty easily.

Pierre is the best option on this team to leadoff and it really isn't close. There are definitely better options out there around baseball, but for what we would have to give up to upgrade (assuming any upgrades are even available) I think we go with what we got.

I wasn't a huge fan of Pierre signing at the time (although he's a better player than Pods) but I also won't say I'm disappointed with what he's been giving the Sox, especially the last month or so.

soxinem1
07-13-2010, 11:31 AM
Lead off hitters are not expected to drive in runs, they are expected to get on base and create runs. I'll agree with you that his OBP is low and should be better, but aside from that, I think Pierre does a great job in the 1 hole.

Yes and no.

Sure, they are not relied upon, but Pierre is WAY below the MLB average. And for all the SB's his run total is quite low, even during the recent offensive surge of the team. Michael Bourn on HOU is a part of one of the worst lineups in MLB and he still has more runs than Pierre.

For example:

Denard Span has 37 RBI
Scott Podsednik has 35 RBI

And they are not event elite lead-off men.

My issue with Pierre is that while he rarely K's, he rarely walks and has no other offensive talents than his speed and spraying the ball. His bunting has been very poor this year so far, and hopefully he can pick it up a bit as the season goes on.

Pierre limped into the ASB and other than distracting a few pitchers when he has reached base, he has not been much of a factor.

However, he has now had a pass through almost every team in the AL so maybe he will be better in the second half.

I also believe that replacing him now will be silly, as they are winning with minimal contributions from him. Its not like there is a viable replacement, or a need to fix what is not broken.

Lillian
07-13-2010, 04:31 PM
To play "devil's advocate" for a moment; Perhaps the strongest argument against Rios as a lead off hitter is that he might not see as many fast balls as he would batting in front of Quentin, Konerko, and the rest of the heart of the order.

In response to those who think that Ramirez and Beckham represent even worse OBP hitters than Pierre, as I stated, I'd expect both of them to be much better as the season progresses. Alexei has always struggled in the cold Spring weather, and Beckham has been in an awful funk, but he has the talent to be an offensive force. Pierre is what he is, and is not going to get any better. If we're lucky, he'll end up with his career OBP, but in our League, that might be wishful thinking. In any case, he just doesn't walk, nor drive the ball.

Thanks again for all of the good spirited debate.

TheVulture
07-13-2010, 05:43 PM
Not only is Pierre the best current choice for lead-off, if you did replace him at that spot Pierre would become the best option on the team for the number two spot. I don't see how you can call for Pierre being removed from the lead off spot when we're getting poorer production from the number two spot. I'd actually agree as a hitter Pierre would probably be better suited for the second spot than lead-off, if that's the argument. But I don't see a better option for lead off.

Hmm...

Rios
Pierre
Konerko
Quentin
Viciedo
Pierzynski
Ramirez
Beckham
Vizquel

Maybe on 2nd thought, I would consider it. You'd have to consider the chance of throwing Rios off his game moving him to the lead off spot and Viciedo would have to continue to hit like he has thus far on an every day basis for it to work. I don't think it would be worth the gamble considering the reduction in run producing scenerios for arguably your best hitter(I still am leaning towards Konerko for that title.)

TomBradley72
07-13-2010, 05:47 PM
In reading some of the posts, it looks like a few of you misunderstood my suggestion. I never suggested acquiring another lead off hitter. I agree that this team has other priorities, which are greater than upgrading the lead off hitter. A power left handed bat, and another starter, as insurance against an injury, are much more important.
Iím suggesting that if the Sox could acquire a potent LH bat, they might have in house options to upgrade the lead off spot.
Just plug in the name of your realistic acquisition of some LH hitter with a respectable OBP, who could provide that left handed presence in the middle of the order, probably as a DH. Now construct your line up, leaving the lead off hitter blank:
_________
Vizquel or Beckham if he's back on track
Quentin
Konerko
LH Acquisition to likely DH
Jones
A. J.
Ramirez
Beckham

Now you plug Rios in at the top of the order, and he bats behind Ramirez and Beckham. That should give him at least as many RBI opportunities as he is now getting, batting behind Pierre and Vizquel. That is the key point. Many of you have argued that it's foolish to "waste" Rios' RBI potential leading off. Think about it. The low OBP of Pierre and Vizquel is not going to provide that many RBI chances for Rios. He would likely have more opportunities to drive in runs following Ramirez and Beckham, provide they start hitting up to their potential. I agree that so far their stats don't validate it, but I guess I just have more faith in their prospects than I do in Pierre and Vizquel.
Rios can steal enough bases to distract the pitcher, and his propensity to hit doubles provides an opportunity for Vizquel to bunt him to third with no out. And of course, he gets a few more at bats than he would get, hitting further down in the line up.

We don't need Rios in the middle of the lineup, which already has an abundance of better power hitters. If you add another power hitter in that LH bat, then the lineup becomes even more potent. Isn't Quentin, Konerko, the new LH power hitter, Jones, and maybe Viciedo enough power? Even Ramirez and Beckham provide additional power at the bottom of the order.

If Pierre is still on the roster, he becomes a pinch runner for Paulie, any time Konerko gets on late in the game.

If Beckham returns to form, you could bat him second, and Viciedo could play 3B, with Omar as a late inning defensive replacement. Viciedo would bat 7th behind A.J., Alexei moving down to 9th.

I didn't discuss Teahen's role, and I'd like to see him included with Pierre and a prospect in a trade to acquire that missing LH bat, or another starter. Morel looks like he might be coming faster than originally thought, and Viciedo appears to be ready to play third now. He has the hands and the arm, and maybe Vizquel can help him with his footwork.

I understand that trading Teahen and Pierre might be difficult, given their contracts, but there are ways to overcome that hurdle.

All of those possibilities are more appealing to me than Pierre, and none of them necessitate trading for a lead off hitter.

Answer is still: No.

Rios as a lead off hitter is not a good idea.

TheVulture
07-13-2010, 05:48 PM
It's interesting that Pierre doesn't walk enough, but he's reached based 7 times more via BB and HBP than the guy who's suggested to replace him.

Craig Grebeck
07-13-2010, 05:56 PM
It's interesting that Pierre doesn't walk enough, but he's reached based 7 times more via BB and HBP than the guy who's suggested to replace him.
I'm guessing the main problem with Pierre is that he doesn't do anything enough.

He steals bases, yes, I'm aware.

kufram
07-13-2010, 06:05 PM
Ummm.. having had one of the great runs in living memory interupted only by the all-star break and against the backdrop of know-it-alls that wanted to bust it up in May... yeah, what a great idea.... let's really mess with this teams chemistry

oeo
07-13-2010, 06:09 PM
Pierre has reached base 97 times in his last 63 games for a .349 OBP.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of Pierre, but since the beginning of May he has a .349 OBP. IMO, that's acceptable for a leadoff hitter, and around what we got from Pods in his best years. Sure, the way he does it isn't pretty, but I couldn't care less how he's getting on base as long as he is.

Lillian
07-13-2010, 06:43 PM
That's crazy. So would you bat Pujols leadoff for the Cards? You don't move Rios out of the 3 hole unless your lineup resembles the Yankees. You only move him up in the order if you have the likes of Pujols, Howard, Braun as your 3-5 guys.

In your scenerio, instead of batting him 3rd your suggestion would be to move Beckham and Ramirez up in the lineup and move Pierre down. That would make more sense.

Just because a hitter is a good OBP guy DOES NOT make them a good leadoff hitter. Juan does the untangables. For instance he doesn't swing at the first pitch, he fouls off enough pitches for others to see what the pitcher is throwing, when he does get on he's a menace on the basebaths distracting the pitcher.

You seem to want to have the lineup that resembles the Yankees really bad, for a leadoff hitter to drive in runs.

We all know the object of the game is to score runs, but not every single hitter in your line up is a run producer. You need to face the facts. Ever since we got rid of Ray Durham, we have had a hole in the leadoff spot. The Sox have tried multiple types of players there and it hasn't worked out very well until we acquired Podsednik.

If you ask around fan bases and experts, I'd be willing to bet the definition of a prototypical leadoff hitter would be as I've stated mutliple times on this thread.

So you are comparing Alex Rios to Albert Pujols. Yes I agree, it would be crazy to bat Pujols lead off on any team. However, Rios is not Pujols.
I understand that he is on a pace to hit 30 homers, but that has not been his history.

Boondock Saint
07-13-2010, 06:48 PM
So you are comparing Alex Rios to Albert Pujols. Yes I agree, it would be crazy to bat Pujols lead off on any team. However, Rios is not Pujols.
I understand that he is on a pace to hit 30 homers, but that has not been his history.

It hasn't been his history, but it's always been his potential.

Lillian
07-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Let me tell you from where this idea of using Rios at lead off came.
I was thinking about acquiring that big LH bat, and then when it came to constructing a lineup, I couldn't figure out how to get everyone in the line up. I was thinking Dunn at the time, so I figured that the middle of the order would be Quentin, Konerko, Dunn, and Jones. You probably know by now that I've been rooting for Jones to get more playing time since Spring Training. I know he isn't hitting for average, but as I've been asserting, it's hard for a slugger like Jones to keep his timing when playing so sporadically. Even then, he's on pace to hit 40 homers if you project his numbers over a full season.

The point is that I just preferred to see Jones play instead of Pierre, if for no other reason than his defense. That led to thoughts of finding someone else in the every day line up who could hit lead off. Rios seemed like the best choice. The more I thought about it, the more appealing it was to me.

Many of you made some very good points, and they are well taken. I just have a different idea, especially playing in the Cell during the summer months, when the ball is flying out of the park.

Then when Viciedo surfaced as another possibility, it seemed even less necessary to use Rios in the #3 spot.

In any case, I never contemplated using Rios as a lead off hitter unless the Sox first acquired that big LH bat for the middle of the order.

pythons007
07-13-2010, 08:31 PM
So you are comparing Alex Rios to Albert Pujols. Yes I agree, it would be crazy to bat Pujols lead off on any team. However, Rios is not Pujols.
I understand that he is on a pace to hit 30 homers, but that has not been his history.

There should be no reason you should have a guy that is a run producer hitting in the leadoff spot!!! Absolutely NO REASON!

I used the Pujols example because they are both vaguely similar. Both can hit for power and average. It has always been Rios ceiling to hit for average and for a good amount of power, plus steal bases.

Let me tell you from where this idea of using Rios at lead off came.
I was thinking about acquiring that big LH bat, and then when it came to constructing a lineup, I couldn't figure out how to get everyone in the line up. I was thinking Dunn at the time, so I figured that the middle of the order would be Quentin, Konerko, Dunn, and Jones. You probably know by now that I've been rooting for Jones to get more playing time since Spring Training. I know he isn't hitting for average, but as I've been asserting, it's hard for a slugger like Jones to keep his timing when playing so sporadically. Even then, he's on pace to hit 40 homers if you project his numbers over a full season.

The point is that I just preferred to see Jones play instead of Pierre, if for no other reason than his defense. That led to thoughts of finding someone else in the every day line up who could hit lead off. Rios seemed like the best choice. The more I thought about it, the more appealing it was to me.

Many of you made some very good points, and they are well taken. I just have a different idea, especially playing in the Cell during the summer months, when the ball is flying out of the park.

Then when Viciedo surfaced as another possibility, it seemed even less necessary to use Rios in the #3 spot.

In any case, I never contemplated using Rios as a lead off hitter unless the Sox first acquired that big LH bat for the middle of the order.


If the Sox did acquire Dunn, you move players around and you fit him into the lineup.

So you think Viciedo is just going to continue his play? I'm not so sure on that and I wouldn't be willing to bank on it as they try for a push for the playoffs.

Lillian
07-13-2010, 08:40 PM
There should be no reason you should have a guy that is a run producer hitting in the leadoff spot!!! Absolutely NO REASON!

I used the Pujols example because they are both vaguely similar. Both can hit for power and average. It has always been Rios ceiling to hit for average and for a good amount of power, plus steal bases.




If the Sox did acquire Dunn, you move players around and you fit him into the lineup.

So you think Viciedo is just going to continue his play? I'm not so sure on that and I wouldn't be willing to bank on it as they try for a push for the playoffs.

No, I don't necessarily think that Viciedo will continue to hit well enough to play his way into the starting line up.

So, if the Sox did acquire a really good left handed bat, what would your line up look like

pythons007
07-13-2010, 09:44 PM
No, I don't necessarily think that Viciedo will continue to hit well enough to play his way into the starting line up.

So, if the Sox did acquire a really good left handed bat, what would your line up look like

It would still consist of Pierre in the leadoff spot and Rios in the middle of it. That's for damn sure!

Lillian
07-14-2010, 12:19 AM
It would still consist of Pierre in the leadoff spot and Rios in the middle of it. That's for damn sure!

Then should we assume that you would prefer to play Pierre instead of Jones, even though there is the option to replace Pierre at lead off with another one of the regular starters?

If that assumption is correct, that is a view point with which I disagree . For me, with the addition of a big LH bat, if the team could find an adequate substitute for Pierre at lead off, from it's current Roster, I would much rather see Jones play than Pierre.

The guy is a future Hall of Famer. He's not that old. He's in the best shape that he's been in years, and he has proven that he can still play.
He's arguably the best defensive outfielder on this team, and he has already demonstrated that he can still hit. He's never had an especially difficult time hitting RH pitching, therefore I never saw the need to platoon him with Kotsay. I think that regular playing time would only improve his performance.

At any rate, this is probably all academic, as it doesn't appear likely that K.W. will be able to acquire that big LH bat. Nevertheless, it's an interesting discussion.

Thanks

Nellie_Fox
07-14-2010, 12:59 AM
Putting Rios at leadoff GUARANTEES that at least a fifth of his at-bats will come with nobody on. I don't want to see that.

Lillian
07-14-2010, 07:44 AM
Putting Rios at leadoff GUARANTEES that at least a fifth of his at-bats will come with nobody on. I don't want to see that.

Good point. Yes, there is at least one at bat per game in which the lead off hitter has no possibility to bat with someone on base.
A few of those at bats are made up by the extra at bats that the lead off guy gets over a full season. Although, the difference in the number of at bats between the lead off and #3 hitter is very small.

However, if the Sox had a big LH bat, Quentin should bat 3rd, followed by Konerko and the new LH hitter. That then places Rios at #6, where the difference in plate appearances becomes a little more significant.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken.
Thanks "Nellie". God, I loved him. Best number two hitter in a Sox uniform, whom I can remember.

SCCWS
07-14-2010, 08:50 AM
Lillian: My problem w your arguement is that you refer to historical data to say Rios won't hit 30 Hr's. But you neglect that historically, Pierre is a better hitter than he has shown. You also are convinced Beckham will have a better 2nd half. Historically Beckham has now had more bad months in the majors than good ones. He has only had 2 good months out of 7.

pythons007
07-14-2010, 09:02 AM
Good point. Yes, there is at least one at bat per game in which the lead off hitter has no possibility to bat with someone on base.
A few of those at bats are made up by the extra at bats that the lead off guy gets over a full season. Although, the difference in the number of at bats between the lead off and #3 hitter is very small.

However, if the Sox had a big LH bat, Quentin should bat 3rd, followed by Konerko and the new LH hitter. That then places Rios at #6, where the difference in plate appearances becomes a little more significant.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken.
Thanks "Nellie". God, I loved him. Best number two hitter in a Sox uniform, whom I can remember.

So now you have Rios hitting 6th? Quentin in front of him? Sure Quentin has been hot, but Rios has been mashing the ball all year long!!!

Lillian
07-14-2010, 10:11 AM
So now you have Rios hitting 6th? Quentin in front of him? Sure Quentin has been hot, but Rios has been mashing the ball all year long!!!

Who do you think is more of a prototypical #3 hitter on a team with several power hitters, Rios or Quentin?
Historically, Rios has always been more of an average and doubles hitter.
Quentin is a true slugger, and needs to bat 3rd. Konerko should be at clean up and a LH power hitter with a good OBP should bat behind Konerko, in order to break the string of RH hitters.

So yes, on this team, with a solid LH bat added, you could consider batting Rios 6th. I've suggested in other threads that I always liked the idea of a #6 hitter being a guy who can both drive in runs and steal bases. In that spot, he can be a run producer, but if he comes up with no one on, he can serve as a kind of second lead off hitter, for the bottom of the order. That doesn't work in the N.L., but with the DH and a strong bottom of the order, it seems valid to me.

I can understand and appreciate a different opinion, but this is a reasonable suggestion, and hardly calls for a reaction of incredulity.

Lillian
07-14-2010, 10:29 AM
Lillian: My problem w your arguement is that you refer to historical data to say Rios won't hit 30 Hr's. But you neglect that historically, Pierre is a better hitter than he has shown. You also are convinced Beckham will have a better 2nd half. Historically Beckham has now had more bad months in the majors than good ones. He has only had 2 good months out of 7.

The historical data on Rios carries more weight because he has played his entire career in the A.L. Pierre has never played in this League, and therefore his performance is a little less predictable.

Statistics only tell part of the story. My eyes tell me that Pierre can't drive a baseball. He can't seem to hit the ball into the gap, or stroke a solid line drive. He can't drive a guy home from third with a sacrifice fly.
Moreover, he doesn't walk much, and surprisingly, he doesn't appear to be that good of a bunter.

I'm sorry, the guy doesn't impress me, and it won't surprise me if he ends up hitting about 10 points below his OBP over the last 3 years, which would not be enough to make him a good lead off man. He seems best suited to pinch run. What do your eyes tell you?

I'd even rather try Lillibridge, or De Aza. I understand that the Sox have to play Pierre, but there is always a chance that they could trade him.
Is there any team out there that is desperate for a lead off hitter?

kobo
07-14-2010, 12:04 PM
My eyes tell me Juan Pierre is doing a satisfactory job leading off for this team. My eyes tell me Jones will never return to form and while he may have potential to knock the ball out of the park he isn't consistent enough to be in the lineup every day just for the chance that he may hit a homerun. My eyes also tell me that Rios is thriving in the 3 hole and is currently having one of his best seasons from an offensive standpoint.

Juan Pierre isn't the greatest leadoff hitter but he's also not the worst and in my opinion is not hurting the team. I don't think the team is relying on him to drive in runs; there are plenty of other guys in the lineup to fill that role. Pierre's contribution comes from taking pitches, getting on base, and being a threat on the basepaths. Yes, his OBP is low this year, however I don't think it's so low to warrant a change.

Nellie_Fox
07-15-2010, 01:01 AM
Who do you think is more of a prototypical #3 hitter on a team with several power hitters, Rios or Quentin? I've always seen the #3 as the best overall, pure hitter, with the best power hitter being #4. Ergo, I see Rios as more of a prototypical #3. Rios is more likely to hit for average while putting up respectable power numbers.

Just my opinion.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2010, 02:11 AM
Although the Sox shouldn't tinker while the team is red hot, and there is nobody on the roster who deserves to be the leadoff hitter, Pierre has been pretty bad this year.

His OPS of .615 ranks 80th among qualified AL starters.

"But a leadoff hitter's job isn't to drive in runs, so his woeful .289 slugging percentage doesn't matter. He makes up for with his mediocre .326 on-base percentage."

Please.

At least we ought to be able to find a player on the scrap heap who's a major upgrade. Even Jeremy Reed has a career .667 OPS, and Reed is a better outfielder.

Nellie_Fox
07-15-2010, 02:43 AM
I'm not a stat head, but OPS just can't be a good metric to judge a leadoff hitter by. Let's hear from some of the "propeller heads."

MisterB
07-15-2010, 03:26 AM
I'm not a stat head, but OPS just can't be a good metric to judge a leadoff hitter by. Let's hear from some of the "propeller heads."

Actually a lot of "propellerheads" reject the whole concept of a leadoff man as anything other than just the first guy to bat in an inning.

The argument is that: 1) the leadoff man is only guaranteed to leadoff the first inning, so it doesn't make a difference as the game goes on; and 2) the difference in production between a classically constructed lineup and just picking names out of a hat is statistically negligible. Therefore all hitters should be judged by the same criteria (namely whatever all-encompassing-stat-du-jour you prefer.)

I don't particularly agree, but that's the general sabermetrical take on it.

Lillian
07-15-2010, 07:52 AM
Actually a lot of "propellerheads" reject the whole concept of a leadoff man as anything other than just the first guy to bat in an inning.

The argument is that: 1) the leadoff man is only guaranteed to leadoff the first inning, so it doesn't make a difference as the game goes on; and 2) the difference in production between a classically constructed lineup and just picking names out of a hat is statistically negligible. Therefore all hitters should be judged by the same criteria (namely whatever all-encompassing-stat-du-jour you prefer.)

I don't particularly agree, but that's the general sabermetrical take on it.

Exactly, and this is even more applicable in the A.L. When the lead off hitter doesn't follow the pitcher, but rather capable hitters at the bottom of the line up, he should be able to hit better than Pierre.

If you look at runs scored plus RBI's, you can see how bad he has been.
Pierre has scored 46 runs and driven in 14 for a total of 60, in 339 at bats.
That projects to a combined 114 runs scored, and driven in, over a complete 162 game season. That shouldn't be considered acceptable by anyone, using any criteria.
I understand that the lead off hitter's responsibility is not to drive in runs. However, when given the opportunity, he should be able to occasionally do so, especially if he's not very good at getting on base.
He can't be bad at both.

Pierre does one thing very well. He runs, and can steal bases.
We have the slowest runner in the Major Leagues, who also possesses the team's best OBP.
Why not pinch run Pierre for Konerko every time he gets on in his fourth or fifth at bat in the game? Kotsay then goes in to play 1B, and Paulie gets a little rest to protect his health.

It works well in several respects;
1) Replaces the slowest guy in the League with a premier base runner.
2) Gives Kotsay just the amount of playing time to maximize his abilities. He is a lifetime .323 pinch hitter.
3) Although Kotsay can't hit like Paulie, he would at least add a little better LH/RH balance to the line up, at the end of the game, when the opposing manager starts matching up his bullpen with the hitters.
4) Gives Paulie a little rest in order to keep him fresh down the stretch.
5) And best of all, you keep Pierre out of the starting lineup.

SCCWS
07-15-2010, 09:03 AM
Lillian: You seem obsessed w Pierre. I have a solution for you. As many posters have stated, there is not a better option on this roster offensively and defensively. Pierre is hitting .257 and historically he should get into the .280 range by season end. He has been solid in left field especially by moving TCQ to right where he is less exposed.
The biggest "hole" on this roster right now is 2nd base. You keep referring to OBP. Have you checked Beckham's numbers? He may be the worst everyday player in the AL right now. Defensively he leads the AL in errors at his position. If we could get a legit 2nd baseman( hopefully Liilibridge), that person can lead off, Pierre can move to 9th and we would solve one major offensive problem while improving the defense. I am just not convinced Lilli is a defensive upgrade based on his numbers in Charlotte but time will tell.

Lillian
07-15-2010, 09:19 AM
Lillian: You seem obsessed w Pierre. I have a solution for you. As many posters have stated, there is not a better option on this roster offensively and defensively. Pierre is hitting .257 and historically he should get into the .280 range by season end. He has been solid in left field especially by moving TCQ to right where he is less exposed.
The biggest "hole" on this roster right now is 2nd base. You keep referring to OBP. Have you checked Beckham's numbers? He may be the worst everyday player in the AL right now. Defensively he leads the AL in errors at his position. If we could get a legit 2nd baseman( hopefully Liilibridge), that person can lead off, Pierre can move to 9th and we would solve one major offensive problem while improving the defense. I am just not convinced Lilli is a defensive upgrade based on his numbers in Charlotte but time will tell.

It's not an obsession, just something to think about and discuss during the dead time, over the ALL Star break.
In the final analysis, it really all depends upon whether Pierre can hit as well in the American League as he did in the National League.
He wasn't great, but he was adequate, in the N.L.
In answer to that question, the only indication we have is from Inter-League play, and the first half of this season. His numbers over his last few years in the N.L. vs. the A.L., in Inter-League play are not encouraging:

AVG OBP SLG
.260 .329 .325 2007
.222 .246 .222 2008
.276 .306 .322 2009

Regarding Beckham; Of course, I know that he has been just awful. However, one can justifiably hold out a lot of hope for him to get much, much better. He's young, and talented, and has proven that he can hit at the Big League level. A sofomore slump is different than the issues regarding Pierre.

pythons007
07-15-2010, 09:56 AM
He wasn't great, but he was adequate, in the N.L.

He has a career .300 average in the NL how is that adequate!?!?!?

Interleague play is a poor sample size to base anything on. He changed leagues so there are some adjustments to make against some pitchers he's not familar.

Let's see how his second half goes and then you can start bashing him, give him some time to make adjustments. Just before the break he was hitting the ball just fine.

If your arguement is about his OBP being low, well fine. He's never been an OBP guy.

But suggesting Rios goes to the leadoff spot is ludicrious. If he was in the All-Star game fine, but not for the White Sox lineup.

Lillian
07-15-2010, 10:10 AM
He has a career .300 average in the NL how is that adequate!?!?!?

Interleague play is a poor sample size to base anything on. He changed leagues so there are some adjustments to make against some pitchers he's not familar.

Let's see how his second half goes and then you can start bashing him, give him some time to make adjustments. Just before the break he was hitting the ball just fine.

If your arguement is about his OBP being low, well fine. He's never been an OBP guy.

But suggesting Rios goes to the leadoff spot is ludicrious. If he was in the All-Star game fine, but not for the White Sox lineup.

It's just adequate because he doesn't draw walks. Yes, my argument is about his low OBP, which is the most important stat for a lead off hitter.
Do you remember Tony Phillips? Perennially, he would have an OBP about 120 points higher than his average. He didn't steal bases, but he was always on base.

SCCWS
07-15-2010, 10:43 AM
Regarding Beckham; Of course, I know that he has been just awful. However, one can justifiably hold out a lot of hope for him to get much, much better. He's young, and talented, and has proven that he can hit at the Big League level. A sofomore slump is different than the issues regarding Pierre.

As WS fans we all hope so. But the reality is he had a great June/July ( mostly interleague play as you would say) last season his first two months in the majors. Since then he is hitting below.230 . That is not a sophmore slump. It probably means ML pitchers have found a flaw which he has not been able to offset. We all hope starting today he is last July's Beckham and not the player we have seen since last August.

pythons007
07-15-2010, 10:56 AM
It's just adequate because he doesn't draw walks. Yes, my argument is about his low OBP, which is the most important stat for a lead off hitter.
Do you remember Tony Phillips? Perennially, he would have an OBP about 120 points higher than his average. He didn't steal bases, but he was always on base.

So you'd be fine with anyon with a high OBP as a leadoff hitter? That's basically what you're saying then. You don't care anything besides a guy that can get on base.

Do you remember Nick Swisher?

PhillipsBubba
07-15-2010, 11:09 AM
It may be time to think of replacing Pierre as the lead off hitter.....

Thought about it....forgot about it:cool:

Lillian
07-15-2010, 11:19 AM
So you'd be fine with anyon with a high OBP as a leadoff hitter? That's basically what you're saying then. You don't care anything besides a guy that can get on base.

Do you remember Nick Swisher?

No, that is not what I'm saying. Here is what I said; "my argument is about his low OBP, which is the most important stat for a lead off hitter".
Yes, OBP is the most important stat, but not the only one.

My reference to Tony Phillips was intended to illustrate my point. He was a decent base runner, but not a big stolen base threat. Nevertheless, he was a premier lead off hitter. His ability to get on base at a .400 plus clip made him a very effective lead off hitter.

pythons007
07-15-2010, 11:03 PM
3-4 2 runs an RBI in the first game after the all-star game. Just saying...

Lillian
07-16-2010, 12:07 AM
3-4 2 runs an RBI in the first game after the all-star game. Just saying...

Yes, and a beautiful sacrifice bunt, as well. And how about the two hit and run plays with him getting to third? Great game for him.I'm rootin' for him. Let's hope he proves me wrong.

soltrain21
07-16-2010, 08:36 AM
Yes, and a beautiful sacrifice bunt, as well. And how about the two hit and run plays with him getting to third? Great game for him.I'm rootin' for him. Let's hope he proves me wrong.

He has been for a good two months.

Lillian
07-16-2010, 09:22 AM
He has been for a good two months.

Yes, you're absolutely right. He has been much better since his awful April. He had one especially good run from May 2nd to the 20th, when he hit .338, and raised his average from .202 to .264.

Most players have their hot and cold streaks. I just thought that it was fair to look at his complete body of work at the All Star break, and it wasn't very impressive. He had played every day, and had accumulated 339 at bats. That was a reasonably large sample size upon which to evaluate him, and I think that you would have to agree that his performance was pretty disappointing.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that he has been "good for two months". He hit .257 with 2 extra base hits, the entire month of June.

That said, last night was a great start to the second half, and coupled with his improving play of late, it's encouraging.
I want him to do well, and I'm rooting for him, as I said.

GAsoxfan
07-16-2010, 10:01 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to say that he has been "good for two months". He hit .257 with 2 extra base hits, the entire month of June.


But he did have a .342 OBP in June.

Pierre has holes in his game, and he's definitely not an All-Star, but he's a starter-level player. You're in trouble if he's one of your best players, but you can win with him in the starting lineup.

mzh
07-16-2010, 11:04 AM
With Pierre, you don't necessarily need him to get extra base hits too much. If he gets on with a walk or a single, there's a good chance he'll turn that into a double by stealing second.

mjmcend
07-16-2010, 11:51 AM
With Pierre, you don't necessarily need him to get extra base hits too much. If he gets on with a walk or a single, there's a good chance he'll turn that into a double by stealing second.

And historically and this year, he has a 25% chance of turning that walk or a single into an out by getting caught stealing.

Boondock Saint
07-16-2010, 12:39 PM
And historically and this year, he has a 25% chance of turning that walk or a single into an out by getting caught stealing.

You say that like it's a terrible percentage.

edit: Also, your statement would only be true if he tried to steal every single time he got on base.

mjmcend
07-16-2010, 05:15 PM
You say that like it's a terrible percentage.

edit: Also, your statement would only be true if he tried to steal every single time he got on base.

Not at all, but I certainly could have been more clear. If you are going to assume that Pierre's steals count as doubles (and I agree) then to be consistant you should remove his CS from his OBP.

Lillian
07-31-2010, 12:10 PM
I thought maybe some of you might find this discussion interesting.
B & B were talking about Pierre, and the role of lead off hitters in general.

http://wscr.cbslocal.com/2010/07/30/boers-and-bernstein-full-show-730/#more-26885

It's in the third clip, starting at about 6:00