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Lillian
06-23-2010, 09:06 PM
Have you guys noticed De Aza coming on at Charlotte?

He has a lot of tools, and could ultimately replace Pierre in LF and leadoff.

doublem23
06-23-2010, 09:13 PM
The Marlins are notorious for being excellent in scouting and player development. If a guy can't stick with them while cheap, it's probably because he sucks.

Lillian
06-23-2010, 09:19 PM
The Marlins are notorious for being excellent in scouting and player development. If a guy can't stick with them while cheap, it's probably because he sucks.

Perhaps you're right about the Marlins, although "notorious" is the wrong word. "Famous" would be more appropriate.
Nevertheless, I don't believe that anything De Aza has done in his career suggests that "he sucks".

tm1119
06-23-2010, 09:55 PM
Ehh hes nothing more than a career UTL player. Think Willie Harris without the ability to play the infield. Could be a useful bench player though.

TheVulture
06-24-2010, 03:33 AM
The Marlins are notorious for being excellent in scouting and player development. If a guy can't stick with them while cheap, it's probably because he sucks.

He won the starting CF job with the Marlins out of spring training in both 2007 and 2008 but lost out on injuries and missed the bulk of those seasons. If the Marlins are excellent in scouting how did he win the job twice at the age of 22 and 23 if he sucks? They couldn't send him to the minors as he had already been outrighted. They either had to DFA him or he would have become a free agent, so they actually did the only thing they could have done to keep him other than keep him on the ML roster. Just because he still needed to be in the minors at 24 after basically missing two full season doesn't mean he sucks.

Supposedly, his defense and baserunning are outstanding. I don't know if he's good enough to be considered for the ML team at any point, but I don't think it's right to dismiss him just because the Marlins DFA'd him.

Lillian
06-24-2010, 08:22 AM
Ehh hes nothing more than a career UTL player. Think Willie Harris without the ability to play the infield. Could be a useful bench player though.

I wouldn't be quite so hasty as to label a 26 year old, who missed all of 2008 because of injuries, "nothing more than a "utility player".
The comparison to Willie Harris is very debatable. De Aza has better defensive skills, and some pop, in addition to being a pretty good offensive player.
Have you actually looked at his Minor League stats?
I thought that he looked very impressive, when I saw him in Spring Training this year.

doublem23
06-24-2010, 12:47 PM
He won the starting CF job with the Marlins out of spring training in both 2007 and 2008 but lost out on injuries and missed the bulk of those seasons. If the Marlins are excellent in scouting how did he win the job twice at the age of 22 and 23 if he sucks? They couldn't send him to the minors as he had already been outrighted. They either had to DFA him or he would have become a free agent, so they actually did the only thing they could have done to keep him other than keep him on the ML roster. Just because he still needed to be in the minors at 24 after basically missing two full season doesn't mean he sucks.

Supposedly, his defense and baserunning are outstanding. I don't know if he's good enough to be considered for the ML team at any point, but I don't think it's right to dismiss him just because the Marlins DFA'd him.

Meh, I will defer to the Marlins scouting department, who are excellent in this matter. If De Aza was worth keeping around, they would have found a way. The last time people got all excited about a "toolsy" Marlins castoff was Julio Ramirez, and I think we remember how that disaster turned out.

DirtySox
06-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Meh, I will defer to the Marlins scouting department, who are excellent in this matter. If De Aza was worth keeping around, they would have found a way. The last time people got all excited about a "toolsy" Marlins castoff was Julio Ramirez, and I think we remember how that disaster turned out.

Indeed. De Aza isn't anything spectacular. He isn't supplanting anyone at this point. I would agree that 4th outfielder is his ceiling.

Lillian
06-29-2010, 07:27 AM
For all the naysayers in this thread: Please check out De Aza's stats at Charlotte.

Last night he went 5 for 6 with a couple of doubles.
He's hitting .476 with a .532 OBP, over his last 10 games.
On the season he's now hitting .320 with a .403 OBP.
He's 9 for 9 in stolen bases, and already has 3 more extra base hits than Pierre, in just 122 at bats, which is less than half as many at bats as our pathetic current lead off hitter.
De Aza has also driven in 3 more runs than Pierre, and has his slugging % up to .431.

I don't think that his recent play is a total fluke. Just look at his stats from last year at AAA. I say he can't be worse than Pierre.
Bring him up, and make Pierre a pinch runner.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 08:48 AM
For all the naysayers in this thread: Please check out De Aza's stats at Charlotte.

Last night he went 5 for 6 with a couple of doubles.
He's hitting .476 with a .532 OBP, over his last 10 games.
On the season he's now hitting .320 with a .403 OBP.
He's 9 for 9 in stolen bases, and already has 3 more extra base hits than Pierre, in just 122 at bats, which is less than half as many at bats as our pathetic current lead off hitter.
De Aza has also driven in 3 more runs than Pierre, and has his slugging % up to .431.

I don't think that his recent play is a total fluke. Just look at his stats from last year at AAA. I say he can't be worse than Pierre.
Bring him up, and make Pierre a pinch runner.
You put far too much weight in stats from the International League.

GAsoxfan
06-29-2010, 08:59 AM
I think De Aza should be the leading candidate to replace Jones as the 4th OF next year, but I wouldn't bring him up in July to start in LF and bat leadoff.

Lillian
06-29-2010, 09:04 AM
You put far too much weight in stats from the International League.

Ozzie loves De Aza's play, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets a call up soon. I didn't mention that he's been even better vs. rhp.
That would help fill the void of left handed hitting on this squad.

You would do well to take a second look at this guy. He's more highly regarded than you may think. He has never really had a chance to prove himself at the Big League level.
He's still very young, and he did miss all of 2008.
I can't believe that he could be much worse than Pierre, with more upside.

doublem23
06-29-2010, 09:07 AM
That would help fill the void of left handed hitting on this squad.


No it wouldn't, it would just be one more below-average bat in the lineup.

De Aza is apparently Spanish for Dewayne Wise.

Domeshot17
06-29-2010, 09:52 AM
I would take him over Mark Kotsay

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2010, 01:25 PM
I too would take De Aza over Mark Kotsay, assuming that Mark Kotsay is the 4th OF. Unfortunately, he's more than that on this ballclub.

Lillian
06-29-2010, 07:32 PM
Did you notice De Aza's line vs. RHP this year in AAA?

97 AB .330 Avg .425 OBP .485 SLG
7 doubles 1 triple 2 HR's 11 RBI 14 BB 14 SO 8 SB 0 CS

Last year at AAA in half of a season, vs. right and left handed pitching:

267 AB .300 Avg .370 OBP .506 SLG
21 doubles 5 triples 8 HR 34 RBI

Add his good defense, and you get a pretty compelling player to consider to take Pierre's place.
If he can perform anywhere near that level, you can then try to move Pierre in the off season, and get some salary relief to be applied toward other needs.

What's wrong with giving him a chance to show what he can do?

delben91
06-29-2010, 08:48 PM
Have you guys noticed De Aza coming on at Charlotte?

He has a lot of tools, and could ultimately replace Pierre in LF and leadoff.

He's no Brad Eldred.

rdivaldi
06-29-2010, 10:36 PM
he's no brad eldred.

+1

Lillian
06-30-2010, 06:54 AM
He's no Brad Eldred.

So you guys remember.:wink:

I admit, I thought Eldred might have helped, at some point.

However, De Aza is a completely different kind of player. Eldred was a big slugger, who struck out a lot. This guy is a "toolsy" player who can do a lot of things well.

Do you actually like Pierre's game?
I really don't like his style of offense. He's nothing more than a base runner, and he doesn't get on enough to exercise those skills.

I'd like to have someone who can at least hit a sacrifice fly with a runner on third, and less than two out. All he seems capable of hitting is a "seeing eye" single, or a Texas Leaguer.

Remember, he's only guaranteed to bat lead off once per game. After that, he's pretty useless. It's fine in the N.L., where the lead off guy usually comes to bat with no one on base, after the weak #8 hitter and the pitcher. In the A.L., the lead off hitter can expect to have a lot more chances to move runners up, or drive them in, and he just doesn't seem very capable of that, unless he sacrifice bunts.

He sure wasn't worth the money he got in that big contract, and I doubt he'll be worth what he's costing the Sox, even after what the Dodgers are kicking in.

KMcMahon817
06-30-2010, 01:42 PM
So you guys remember.:wink:

I admit, I thought Eldred might have helped, at some point.

However, De Aza is a completely different kind of player. Eldred was a big slugger, who struck out a lot. This guy is a "toolsy" player who can do a lot of things well.

Do you actually like Pierre's game?
I really don't like his style of offense. He's nothing more than a base runner, and he doesn't get on enough to exercise those skills.

I'd like to have someone who can at least hit a sacrifice fly with a runner on third, and less than two out. All he seems capable of hitting is a "seeing eye" single, or a Texas Leaguer.

Remember, he's only guaranteed to bat lead off once per game. After that, he's pretty useless. It's fine in the N.L., where the lead off guy usually comes to bat with no one on base, after the weak #8 hitter and the pitcher. In the A.L., the lead off hitter can expect to have a lot more chances to move runners up, or drive them in, and he just doesn't seem very capable of that, unless he sacrifice bunts.

He sure wasn't worth the money he got in that big contract, and I doubt he'll be worth what he's costing the Sox, even after what the Dodgers are kicking in.

You may not like Pierre, but he is definitely worth 4 million a year. Minus the first three weeks of the season, he has been a solid lead off man for the Sox. Grebeck, I dont want to hear it.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 02:05 PM
You may not like Pierre, but he is definitely worth 4 million a year. Minus the first three weeks of the season, he has been a solid lead off man for the Sox. Grebeck, I dont want to hear it.

Juan Pierre can still suck (and he does) but that doesn't mean De Aza is a better idea.

Lillian
06-30-2010, 02:57 PM
Juan Pierre can still suck (and he does) but that doesn't mean De Aza is a better idea.

Of course, there is no guarantee that he would be any better.
However, I've seen enough of Pierre, and don't think there is any upside there. He is what he is, and has always been.
I'd rather hope that someone else could do better, and give him a chance.
Any other candidates whom you'd care to suggest?

Randar68
06-30-2010, 03:37 PM
Of course, there is no guarantee that he would be any better.
However, I've seen enough of Pierre, and don't think there is any upside there. He is what he is, and has always been.
I'd rather hope that someone else could do better, and give him a chance.
Any other candidates whom you'd care to suggest?

Sacrificing the known for the completely unknown... BRILLIANT!


That's how you become the Pirates in one easy step, my man.

doublem23
06-30-2010, 03:39 PM
Sacrificing the known for the completely unknown... BRILLIANT!


That's how you become the Pirates in one easy step, my man.

Pretty much. It wouldn't be a big deal if De Aza was a well regarded prospect and the Sox were totally dead in the water, but that's not the case. I still wouldn't mind De Aza making an appearance because, as it's constructed, the Sox have almost no speed on the bench, and will have absolutely none once Teahen replaces Lillibridge, but playing everyday? No thank you.

Randar68
06-30-2010, 03:48 PM
Maybe he's a late bloomer, but at 26 years old, it's not like they should be in a hurry to replace Pierre for him. He's not a Viciedo or Beckham by any means.

russ99
06-30-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm hopeful that Mitchell comes back from his injury with the same abilities and can move through the system quickly next spring.

He's really the only guy in the system who can replace Pierre next year (and thereafter) unless we go outside the organization, and for leadoff guys, that's very expensive, unless we go with the likes of Crisp and Tavares, both of which were released this year.

DirtySox
06-30-2010, 05:57 PM
He's really the only guy in the system who can replace Pierre next year (and thereafter) unless we go outside the organization, and for leadoff guys, that's very expensive, unless we go with the likes of Crisp and Tavares, both of which were released this year.

Willy Taveras will be lucky if he's on even a minor league roster next year.

Lillian
07-27-2010, 11:54 AM
Take a look at De Aza's current split stats at Charlotte. He continues to hit, after a brief stint on the D.L.
Think about the feasibility of bringing him up to at least face right handers.
If some team needs a lead off man, couldn't the Sox deal Pierre, and replace him with De Aza, or even a platoon of De Aza and Lillibridge?
I know Juan had a good night last night, but really he's still not very good.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=457477

kobo
07-27-2010, 01:26 PM
Take a look at De Aza's current split stats at Charlotte. He continues to hit, after a brief stint on the D.L.
Think about the feasibility of bringing him up to at least face right handers.
If some team needs a lead off man, couldn't the Sox deal Pierre, and replace him with De Aza, or even a platoon of De Aza and Lillibridge?
I know Juan had a good night last night, but really he's still not very good.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=457477
You are making a big assumption that De Aza could come here and replicate his production at AAA. What if he comes up and sucks? Then what do you do? Also, as to the feasibility of him facing right handers, look no further than Viciedo. If Viciedo can't get AB's what makes you think De Aza will?

kittle42
07-27-2010, 01:27 PM
Take a look at De Aza's current split stats at Charlotte. He continues to hit, after a brief stint on the D.L.
Think about the feasibility of bringing him up to at least face right handers.
If some team needs a lead off man, couldn't the Sox deal Pierre, and replace him with De Aza, or even a platoon of De Aza and Lillibridge?
I know Juan had a good night last night, but really he's still not very good.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=457477

You want to bring up a guy who is basically a career minor leaguer to replace a guy who may not be good, but is at least a solid MLB veteran who hasn't been that bad at all in the middle of a pennant race?

Just a horrible idea.

If Pierre was hitting .200, we could talk. Bringing up De Aza would still not be the answer though. Christ.

Lillian
07-27-2010, 01:50 PM
I knew that my post would get this kind of response, as it did when I first brought it up.

We'll see.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 01:53 PM
I knew that my post would get this kind of response, as it did when I first brought it up.

We'll see.

It's because it's a bad idea. And we really won't see anything - De Aza will probably get a September callup to serve as a 5th OF; maybe not.

If the Sox had any desire to upgrade from Pierre, and I do not believe they do at all, it won't be with someone in AAA.

Lillian
07-27-2010, 02:02 PM
It's because it's a bad idea. And we really won't see anything - De Aza will probably get a September callup to serve as a 5th OF; maybe not.

If the Sox had any desire to upgrade from Pierre, and I do not believe they do at all, it won't be with someone in AAA.

I'm curious, how much have you seen De Aza play?
I was very impressed when I saw him play almost every Spring Training game. I understand that it's only Spring Training, and that his last couple of years of very good production were at AAA. However, he can do a lot of things, and has always been regarded very highly as a potentially good prototypical lead off hitter.

Yes, I would be happy if the Sox could move Pierre, and give De Aza a shot. Pierre's production in almost 400 at bats in the A.L. this season has been very "under whelming". I can't imagine De Aza would do any worse.
Dumping Pierre's salary, and getting back something useful would be just fine with me.

But, I can see that you guys think Pierre is the answer. O.K.

doublem23
07-27-2010, 02:07 PM
I knew that my post would get this kind of response, as it did when I first brought it up.

We'll see.

Will you stop feeling so bad for yourself? If anybody had suggested we replace Pierre with De Aza, it'd get that kind of reaction.

De Aza is a career minor leaguer for a reason.

Since May, Juan's OBP is over .340. OK, he doesn't do a lot of things well, but he's been able to get on base fairly often and he is more the prototypical lead-off hitter that Ozzie loves. Maybe De Aza would put up nicer numbers, but I don't know if he's a better fit for this team.

I wouldn't mind him coming up and replacing Andruw Jones. Would be nice to have a backup OF that could play all 3 positions well.

soltrain21
07-27-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm curious, how much have you seen De Aza play?
I was very impressed when I saw him play almost every Spring Training game. I understand that it's only Spring Training, and that his last couple of years of very good production were at AAA. However, he can do a lot of things, and has always been regarded very highly as a potentially good prototypical lead off hitter.

Yes, I would be happy if the Sox could move Pierre, and give De Aza a shot. Pierre's production in almost 400 at bats in the A.L. this season has been very "under whelming". I can't imagine De Aza would do any worse.
Dumping Pierre's salary, and getting back something useful would be just fine with me.

But, I can see that you guys think Pierre is the answer. O.K.

At his absolute BEST with EVERYTHING going right De Aza would be Juan Pierre. But what would happen when (not if, but when) he fails miserably do we do? And what are you expecting to get out of Juan Pierre in a trade?

It's a terrible idea all around.

kittle42
07-27-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm curious, how much have you seen De Aza play?
I was very impressed when I saw him play almost every Spring Training game. I understand that it's only Spring Training, and that his last couple of years of very good production were at AAA. However, he can do a lot of things, and has always been regarded very highly as a potentially good prototypical lead off hitter.

Come on, Lillian. Step back for a second and you *have* to realize how ridiculous your position is here. You post here a good deal and obviously have a good knowledge of baseball.

voodoochile
07-27-2010, 02:30 PM
Come on, Lillian. Step back for a second and you *have* to realize how ridiculous your position is here. You post here a good deal and obviously have a good knowledge of baseball.

It constantly amazes me when people throw out a troll, knowing they are throwing out a troll, get the response to said troll they are expecting and then get defensive about it.

It's kind of unusual for someone to admit they were throwing out a troll though, so that's kind of new...:?:

Lillian
07-27-2010, 02:34 PM
Come on, Lillian. Step back for a second and you *have* to realize how ridiculous your position is here. You post here a good deal and obviously have a good knowledge of baseball.

OK, ok. So it's a bad idea.
I just don't like Pierre's game, and I really do like De Aza.
It is worth noting that Ozzie loves De Aza's game, as well. So I'm not completely "out to lunch" here.
Honestly, you can't really tell me that you like Pierre's first 400 at bats in the A.L., can you?

Don't worry, I don't take it personally. It's just a difference of opinion, and I guess no one agrees with me.

Go Sox

Lillian
07-27-2010, 02:35 PM
It constantly amazes me when people throw out a troll, knowing they are throwing out a troll, get the response to said troll they are expecting and then get defensive about it.

It's kind of unusual for someone to admit they were throwing out a troll though, so that's kind of new...:?:

Guilty, as charged.

A. Cavatica
07-27-2010, 11:38 PM
OK, ok. So it's a bad idea.
I just don't like Pierre's game, and I really do like De Aza.
It is worth noting that Ozzie loves De Aza's game, as well. So I'm not completely "out to lunch" here.
Honestly, you can't really tell me that you like Pierre's first 400 at bats in the A.L., can you?

Don't worry, I don't take it personally. It's just a difference of opinion, and I guess no one agrees with me.

Go Sox

Ozzie also loves Pierre's game. And Wise's game. And Erstad's game. And Ozuna's game. And Timo's game.

Ozuna is the only one of those players who was worth what they paid him, IMO.

Ozzie is a horrible judge of talent.

rdivaldi
07-28-2010, 12:29 AM
And Wise's game. And Erstad's game. And Ozuna's game. And Timo's game.

I don't think I've ever heard Ozzie say that about any of those players.

Pierre is notoriously better in the second half of the season than the first, this thread was silly from the get go.

Tragg
07-28-2010, 12:33 AM
I don't think I've ever heard Ozzie say that about any of those players.

Pierre is notoriously better in the second half of the season than the first, this thread was silly from the get go.

Erstad his .400 hitter; or Wise's tremendous spring (.301 obp)?

russ99
07-28-2010, 09:48 AM
Were any of those players brought in to start like Pierre was, or had the track record at leadoff of Pierre?

No. Juan is a completely different case. The rest of your supposed bad players "who Ozzie liked" were forced into a larger role because Anderson couldn't cut it.

You can wail about this until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that Wise, Erstad, Mackowiak, Owens, etc. all were backups and bench players and since the club foolishly put their trust in the development of Brian Anderson, they had to take a bigger role when it turned out he couldn't hit big league pitching.

Tragg
07-28-2010, 10:07 AM
You can wail about this until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that Wise, Erstad, Mackowiak, Owens, etc. all were backups and bench players and since the club foolishly put their trust in the development of Brian Anderson, they had to take a bigger role when it turned out he couldn't hit big league pitching.
Complete and utter spin.
They were backups that awed Guillen with their talent, so he elevated them and refused to take them out of the lineup.
And what's the Kotsay excuse? There's no Anderson.
There was no Anderson for Owens in, Quentin in AAA.
And there was no Anderson at LEADOFF to uplift Wise there (nothing excuses Wise).

Taliesinrk
07-28-2010, 01:23 PM
Complete and utter spin.
They were backups that awed Guillen with their talent, so he elevated them and refused to take them out of the lineup.
And what's the Kotsay excuse? There's no Anderson.
There was no Anderson for Owens in, Quentin in AAA.
And there was no Anderson at LEADOFF to uplift Wise there (nothing excuses Wise).

:thumbsup: - (I still like Ozzie though).

Sam Spade
07-28-2010, 07:37 PM
I don't think I've ever heard Ozzie say that about any of those players.

Pierre is notoriously better in the second half of the season than the first, this thread was silly from the get go.

No offense but this reminds me of the legendary ostrich with its head in the sand here.

He has said many positive things, many times, whether you read them or not. No one is going to go digging up articles, but I would think anyone who has paid close attention to the sox would remember. Did you take a few years off from the board or something?

WhiteSox5187
07-28-2010, 08:52 PM
Ozzie also loves Pierre's game. And Wise's game. And Erstad's game. And Ozuna's game. And Timo's game.

Ozuna is the only one of those players who was worth what they paid him, IMO.

Ozzie is a horrible judge of talent.

Ah yes because Ozzie signed Erstad, and Ozuna (who was a bench player and a very productive bench player, but don't let that get in the way of your argument), and Timo.

rdivaldi
07-28-2010, 09:47 PM
No offense but this reminds me of the legendary ostrich with its head in the sand here.

He has said many positive things, many times, whether you read them or not. No one is going to go digging up articles, but I would think anyone who has paid close attention to the sox would remember. Did you take a few years off from the board or something?

Well of course he said "positive" things about those guys. My challenge is not that Ozzie may have at one time or another said a nice thing about Dwayne Wise. However, I will dispute the argument that Ozzie "loved" these players and demanded that they be on the White Sox. There's a big difference.