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View Full Version : I'll say this much for Hal Vickery..


Tragg
06-20-2002, 06:40 PM
he's relentless!

Do you post on the board, hal?

Daver
06-20-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
he's relentless!

Do you post on the board, hal?

Hal would be the poster known as Torn labrum.

Bucktown
06-20-2002, 10:58 PM
He should go by the name "Belly Acher."

DVG
06-21-2002, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
He should go by the name "Belly Acher."


YEEEEOUCH!!! But ya know what, Hal has absolutely nothing on
Dan Helpingstine. Every time I read his stuff, I want to crack out
a straight-edge razor and end it all. I think he graduated from
the Tennessee Williams school of writing.

TornLabrum
06-21-2002, 08:19 AM
He should go by the name "Belly Acher."

I'm sorry. Have I been misreading the standings? Are we actually 15 games above .500 with a 10 game lead on the Twins? Have we won 10 or 15 pennants in the 47 years that I've been a fan? Do we have one one the top payrolls in baseball?

Did Lenny's trades all suddenly turn out to be fantastic? Is Royce Clayton hitting at least .220? Does Todd Ritchie have a winning record? Is Frank Thomas hitting .300? Is Carlos Lee hitting .275? Do we have a catcher who can throw out a baserunner? Do we have a second baseman who can go to his right? Is Joe Crede our third baseman yet? Is David Wells mowing down the American League in a Sox uniform?

Buck, I don't know if you can imagine this, but try. I've been a fan since 1955. I was five years old then. I'm 52 now. That's 47 years. In that time we've won one pennant. I was in fourth grade then! Let me put it another way. My dad was born in October of 1919, just after the Black Sox Series. He's been dead for 7 years and saw one pennant in his life, and most of that was spent with an 8-team league and no playoff system. One pennant in 83 years. Think about that. If you're as lucky as we are, you may also see one pennant in your lifetime.

You may call it bellyaching. I call it being fed up with a history of mediocrity.

:angry:

mrwag
06-21-2002, 09:44 AM
Sounds like it's time to get a new favorite team to follow.

LongDistanceFan
06-21-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I'm sorry. Have I been misreading the standings? Are we actually 15 games above .500 with a 10 game lead on the Twins? Have we won 10 or 15 pennants in the 47 years that I've been a fan? Do we have one one the top payrolls in baseball?

Did Lenny's trades all suddenly turn out to be fantastic? Is Royce Clayton hitting at least .220? Does Todd Ritchie have a winning record? Is Frank Thomas hitting .300? Is Carlos Lee hitting .275? Do we have a catcher who can throw out a baserunner? Do we have a second baseman who can go to his right? Is Joe Crede our third baseman yet? Is David Wells mowing down the American League in a Sox uniform?

Buck, I don't know if you can imagine this, but try. I've been a fan since 1955. I was five years old then. I'm 52 now. That's 47 years. In that time we've won one pennant. I was in fourth grade then! Let me put it another way. My dad was born in October of 1919, just after the Black Sox Series. He's been dead for 7 years and saw one pennant in his life, and most of that was spent with an 8-team league and no playoff system. One pennant in 83 years. Think about that. If you're as lucky as we are, you may also see one pennant in your lifetime.

You may call it bellyaching. I call it being fed up with a history of mediocrity.

:angry: here here.......... i am for you. :gulp:

Procol Harum
06-21-2002, 10:08 AM
My boy Hal be telling it like it am!! As another long-time Sox guy (cognizant of the Sox since about '60--so I managed to miss our ONE #$^%^%#@ trip to the World Series in the last 83 years!!!)I know he speaketh whereof he knoweth.
Some of you whipper-snappers need to wake up and smell the cappuccino--we've seen futility so we recognize it when we see it. This baseball team is currently in a lot of trouble. While things may improve in the short term--the Sox may be able to get their act together enough to sneak past the Twinks and win the division--there ain't no championships looming in the forseeable future. And with JR and Lenny calling the shots, there's not much room for sunshiney, Cub fan-like optimism.

LuvChiSox
06-21-2002, 10:24 AM
Amen, Procol!

Cheryl
06-21-2002, 10:51 AM
What Procol said.

voodoochile
06-21-2002, 10:58 AM
You know, I understand the griping about Sox history, but I must admit to being confused about why people think the next couple of years look bleak. The team has solid prospects at most of the positions coming up for FA. There are 3 developing young starters who look like they will be solid in the years to come, if not later this season. There is still a solid base of talent currently on the team and the bullpen is deep and experienced.

How can people look at a core of talent that includes:

Maggs
Konerko
Frank
Borchard
Crede
Lee

Buehrle
Garland
Wright
Wunsch
Marte
Osuna
Glover
Foulke

and be down on the future prospects of the club. They could use a veteran catcher next year and need to figure out who their leadoff hitter is (provided they don't resign Lofton), but there are many reasons to feel good about the future and only a few to feel bad. I agree that KW hasn't shown amazing ability as a GM, but he has tried to improve the team and in some cases has succeeded (Marte, Lofton, Osuna). If Ritchie can find any of the form he was showing early in the year, there are plenty of reasons to think the Sox will make a strong second half showing and will turn some heads in the next 3 years (provided we can resign the players we have AND provided there actually IS baseball next year and in the years beyond that).

Gripe all you want about the history of the Sox, but to me, there is more to be happy about now and in the near future than at any time I can remember as a Sox fan save maybe 1983 and 1994 and this team can certainly give those two teams a run for the money in the next few years if they just keep it together...

TornLabrum
06-21-2002, 11:04 AM
Sounds like it's time to get a new favorite team to follow.

It's too late for that. I'm too old and set in my ways. If you look at the bio. below my columns, you'll note that for about 40 years I had a secondary rooting interest in the Cubs. I dropped that when I came to the realization that as long as the Tribune Co. owned that team and had it as a cash cow, they'd never win anything.

I really do believe Jerry Reinsdorf wants to win a World Series. I believe it to this very day. I just think he needs to re-evaluate who he puts in charge (the lowest possible salary) and replace them with people who actually know something about running a ballclub. We've seeen Hawk Harrelson, Ron, Schueler, and Kenny Williams go through on-the-job training as GMs. We've seen Jeff Torborg, Gene Lamont, Terry <choke> Bevington, and now Jerry Manuel go through OJT as managers.

A good business man would know that something isn't working right when all you have to show for 21 years of ownership is three appearances in the postseason and a grand total of three games won in those appearances. That's three wins in thirteen games. I calculate that out to be a winning percentage in the post season of .231.

But Reinsdorf stubbornly clings to the same losing ways he's used for 21 years. And the fans suffer for it.

At least I'm going to get away from this for the next three days. I'll be in Elkhart, IN listening to music. That right now is far more entertaining than watching the Sox go through the motions yet another year.

TornLabrum
06-21-2002, 11:27 AM
You know, I understand the griping about Sox history, but I must admit to being confused about why people think the next couple of years look bleak. The team has solid prospects at most of the positions coming up for FA. There are 3 developing young starters who look like they will be solid in the years to come, if not later this season. There is still a solid base of talent currently on the team and the bullpen is deep and experienced.

To begin with, there is the threat of a strike that will make all of the others look like child's play. It could come in August again, just like it did in '94. After the strike, if it lasts more than a year, there is the question of what happens regarding playing time and free-agency. Remember how we lost Alex Fernandez after the last strike because he got credit for service during the strike?

How can people look at a core of talent that includes:

Okay, let's look at them...

>Maggs

A star.

>Konerko

A star.

>Frank

A star who is fading fast.

>Borchard

Has not made the 40-man roster yet and will be in inexperienced rookie next year (if there is a next year) when he comes up.

>Crede

Will we ever see Crede? He thinks he's going to be traded.

>Lee

Now you're kidding, right?

>Buehrle

Best lefty I've seen up here for years.

>Garland

I like what I'm seeing. I've been in the forefront of those who have said that he was way too young to give up on.

>Wright

Flashes of brilliance. Imagine what these guys could have done with Fogg as another starter.

>Wunsch

Okay, now you're pushing it. The guy is good for facing one or two lefthanded hitters, and he still managed to need arm surgery in that limited capacity.

>Marte

Inconsistent at times but overall a very serviceable reliever.

>Osuna

Spent the first year of his 2-year contract on the DL.

>Glover

Very inconsistent.

>Foulke

Demoted for blowing too many games in the ninth inning. Where's Howry in all of this?

and be down on the future prospects of the club. They could use a veteran catcher next year and need to figure out who their leadoff hitter is (provided they don't resign Lofton), but there are many reasons to feel good about the future and only a few to feel bad. I agree that KW hasn't shown amazing ability as a GM, but he has tried to improve the team and in some cases has succeeded (Marte, Lofton, Osuna). If Ritchie can find any of the form he was showing early in the year, there are plenty of reasons to think the Sox will make a strong second half showing and will turn some heads in the next 3 years (provided we can resign the players we have AND provided there actually IS baseball next year and in the years beyond that).

Right now they have two catchers who can't throw runners out. Our veteran now is on the DL. If Jerry is in a cost cutting mood, we won't be seeing that. You also neglect to mention that we will (assuming Crede is actually brought up sometime before the turn of the century) rookies at second base (Hill), third base (Crede) and centerfield (Borchard), and Valentin's erratic glove at shortstop. And you also neglect to mention that Reinsdorf apparently will cut salary even more if the fans don't come out to see this year's abomination. BTW, you're talking three years down the line when 2001 was the original target date. Where does that fit into your reasoning?

Gripe all you want about the history of the Sox, but to me, there is more to be happy about now and in the near future than at any time I can remember as a Sox fan save maybe 1983 and 1994 and this team can certainly give those two teams a run for the money in the next few years if they just keep it together...

Tell me: what happened in 1984 and 1995? You say you're more optimistic about the future than at any time in the years previous to those. What actually happened is what you should be looking at. The ownership and philosophy are the same. Add 2000 to that list and tell me where you have any room for optimism?

raul12
06-21-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile

How can people look at a core of talent that includes....and be down on the future prospects of the club.

i want to believe....i really do. but in my 20+ years of following the sox--it's just hard. i don't even know what it's like to see the sox win a playoff series, let alone the big kahuna. I'm not sure if i would just stare at the tv in total disbelief or run around the block naked in pure ecstasy. it's such a foreign experience that i don't know what would happen.

i know one thing for sure....if the sox ever win a WS, the city would go nuts....and if the sox could do anything to sustain it, it would become a white sox town. as hard as it is to believe--that used to be the case.

Paulwny
06-21-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile

How can people look at a core of talent that includes:

Maggs
Konerko
Frank
Borchard
Crede
Lee

Buehrle
Garland
Wright
Wunsch
Marte
Osuna
Glover
Foulke



Frank
Robin
Fisk
Raines
Lance Johnson
Ozzie

McDowell
Thigpen
Fernandez
Bere
Alvarez
They also were going to take us to the promised land.

raul12
06-21-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


They also were going to take us to the promised land.

we will always be left wondering....what would have happened in 1994 had the strike not happened? ugh.

Paulwny
06-21-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by raul12


we will always be left wondering....what would have happened in 1994 had the strike not happened? ugh.

Somehow, someway the sky will fall on sox fans.

hold2dibber
06-21-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny



Frank
Robin
Fisk
Raines
Lance Johnson
Ozzie

McDowell
Thigpen
Fernandez
Bere
Alvarez
They also were going to take us to the promised land.

And I for one believe that they would have done so (or come really, really close) had it not been for the strike in '94. That team was poised, diligent and determined. Solid all the way across the board. I don't think we're too far away from getting back to that level. It is within grasp -- but it is hard to be optimistic that KW will be able to pull the right strings to make it reality (see attempted trade of Garland and Singleton for Erstad). The team needs some fine tuning and a couple of pieces, but they're close.

hold2dibber
06-21-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by mrwag
Sounds like it's time to get a new favorite team to follow.

What? Just because someone is pessimistic about the team's chances, they should go find another team? I've been a Sox fan for all of my 34 years and if there is one thing I have come to learn, it is that my allegiance to the Pale Hose will bring me more misery and suffering than joy. That's not to say I don't hold out some hope of hitting pay dirt some year. But I'm not optimistic. Mr. Hickery's critisicms are certainly valid, although I agree he is a "glass half empty" kind of guy -- but who can blame him, after the team's performance for the last century? That doesn't make him less of a fan, or mean that he should change allegiances. Under your thinking, at the beginning of each season, everyone should identify the team they thought had the best chance to win it all that year, and become a fan of that team!

Paulwny
06-21-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

Under your thinking, at the beginning of each season, everyone should identify the team they thought had the best chance to win it all that year, and become a fan of that team!

Damn, the USA full of yankmeee fans. I'd rather be in hell,or Cleveland.

idseer
06-21-2002, 12:38 PM
i'd like to simply add my support to vickery's writings. if it's a crime to print things the way they really are instead of thru rose-colored glasses ... i too am guilty. i don't enjoy being pessimistic all the time, but i make no apologies criticizing the sox in a year where everything is in their favor (healthy, lousy division) and yet still they still can't play over .500 ball.
i'd more seriously question those who feel everything will be just great starting tomorrow!
voodoo, i know you're an eternal optimist about these guys ... but i also remember you making this same claim 2 years ago and that this ('02) was our year. i've been readjusting my sights for over 40 years myself. it gets very tiring!

y'all know who's fault this all is don't you?

little louie!!!!!

Iwritecode
06-21-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Damn, the USA full of yankmeee fans. I'd rather be in hell,or Cleveland.

What's the difference?

Besides that one is filled with horrors beyond belief and you are tortoured for eternity by evil trolls and the other is run by Satan?

Iwritecode
06-21-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Somehow, someway the sky will fall on sox fans.

:thankgod

Paulwny
06-21-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by idseer


y'all know who's fault this all is don't you?

little louie!!!!!

OK, I'll bite, why little louie?

voodoochile
06-21-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i'd like to simply add my support to vickery's writings. if it's a crime to print things the way they really are instead of thru rose-colored glasses ... i too am guilty. i don't enjoy being pessimistic all the time, but i make no apologies criticizing the sox in a year where everything is in their favor (healthy, lousy division) and yet still they still can't play over .500 ball.
i'd more seriously question those who feel everything will be just great starting tomorrow!
voodoo, i know you're an eternal optimist about these guys ... but i also remember you making this same claim 2 years ago and that this ('02) was our year. i've been readjusting my sights for over 40 years myself. it gets very tiring!

y'all know who's fault this all is don't you?

little louie!!!!!

Can we at least wait until August to call THIS year a wash? I mean come on. The Sox haven't been playing great this last month (duh!), but they have been showing signs of life recently. Is this a pennant year? Probably not, but it could still easily be a playoff year. Minnesota isn't exactly setting the world on fire and the Sox are playing below their talent level at present. The division is still there for the taking. Am I nuts? Maybe, but 4 games out on the first official day of summer does not mean the season is over...

Sheesh, probably better if they never won the division in 2000, if all it does is make people have crazy expectations (me too, btw). Still, the team continues to grow and gain experience and nothing will be decided until the Sox and Twins start playing. Get a win or two in Atlanta and go into Minnesota fired up and looking for blood. The one thing this team has done these last few years is get up for big divisional games (okay not last year, but in fairness, we were pretty banged up). Minnesota is the new rivalry with the way they kicked the Sox around last year. Hopefully this will be exactly the tonic the Sox need to get this season back on track...

idseer
06-21-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


OK, I'll bite, why little louie?

i guess i should have colored that part.

you know the sox went 40 years between pennents from '19 t0 '59. a lot was made of it at the time.
well, when louie was traded after the '62 season he was pretty angry and put the curse on the team saying it would be over 40 years before their NEXT pennent too.

Paulwny
06-21-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by idseer


i guess i should have colored that part.

you know the sox went 40 years between pennents from '19 t0 '59. a lot was made of it at the time.
well, when louie was traded after the '62 season he was pretty angry and put the curse on the team saying it would be over 40 years before their NEXT pennent too.

Ah, I never knew that. I was pretty pissed myself when he and Fox were traded.

Iwritecode
06-21-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by idseer


i guess i should have colored that part.

you know the sox went 40 years between pennents from '19 t0 '59. a lot was made of it at the time.
well, when louie was traded after the '62 season he was pretty angry and put the curse on the team saying it would be over 40 years before their NEXT pennent too.

1962 + 40 = 2002

Are you sure he said over 40 or did he just say another 40?

idseer
06-21-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Can we at least wait until August to call THIS year a wash? I mean come on. The Sox haven't been playing great this last month (duh!), but they have been showing signs of life recently. Is this a pennant year? Probably not, but it could still easily be a playoff year.

i haven't lost hope ....... but i have lost faith.

idseer
06-21-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


1962 + 40 = 2002

Are you sure he said over 40 or did he just say another 40?


i'm not sure at all. maybe 'at least 40'. if you really want to analyize it .... 1959 + 40 = 1999!!!!

anyway i was just looking for someone to blame!
:D:

TornLabrum
06-21-2002, 01:19 PM
Sheesh, probably better if they never won the division in 2000, if all it does is make people have crazy expectations (me too, btw). Still, the team continues to grow and gain experience and nothing will be decided until the Sox and Twins start playing. Get a win or two in Atlanta and go into Minnesota fired up and looking for blood. The one thing this team has done these last few years is get up for big divisional games (okay not last year, but in fairness, we were pretty banged up). Minnesota is the new rivalry with the way they kicked the Sox around last year. Hopefully this will be exactly the tonic the Sox need to get this season back on track...

Let me ask you this? Who fostered those crazy expectations? The Sox were supposed to be contenders, according to Schueler's original time table in 2001. We got there early. Fine. We had a dropoff last year. Okay. However, we're still languishing around .500 in a weak division when this, according to the club's timetable was supposed to be the year we take our shot at the World Series.

I think what it points out is this. The timetable keeps getting telescoped. Now fans are telling us that they're hopeful about what will happen in yet another 2-3 years, forgetting the original timetable.

Well, I'm getting two old to buy into that. It's been 43 years since I've seen the Sox in a World Series, and I'm afraid that it'll be the only one I'll ever see.

So I really don't care how we do against the Twins in the next couple of weeks. I'm tired of pie in the sky somewhere down the line. This team isn't going to win now, and unless the way it is run changes fundamentally, it's not going to any time in the near future.

Paulwny
06-21-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

Well, I'm getting two old to buy into that. It's been 43 years since I've seen the Sox in a World Series, and I'm afraid that it'll be the only one I'll ever see.


You're not alone in this feeling, not only go to the ws but to actually win it.
Man, I'm getting depressed over all this.

Cheryl
06-21-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Can we at least wait until August to call THIS year a wash?

The strike is going to wipe this season out in August.

Procol Harum
06-21-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I'm getting two old to buy into that. It's been 43 years since I've seen the Sox in a World Series, and I'm afraid that it'll be the only one I'll ever see.


It does add another annoyingly depressing element to the pains and disappointments of growing old. My new eyeglasses would be a lot easier to accept if with their aid I could more plainly see a World Series contending Sox team on the tube.

:)

WinningUgly!
06-21-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny



Frank
Robin
Fisk
Raines
Lance Johnson
Ozzie

McDowell
Thigpen
Fernandez
Bere
Alvarez
They also were going to take us to the promised land.

I wouldn't consider this group of players a core, not during the same period of time anyway. By 1993, Fisk & Thiggy were both part timers at best just waiting to be released. Raines, Johnson & Ozzie were all heading into their last few years with the Sox as well.

hold2dibber
06-21-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You know, I understand the griping about Sox history, but I must admit to being confused about why people think the next couple of years look bleak. The team has solid prospects at most of the positions coming up for FA. There are 3 developing young starters who look like they will be solid in the years to come, if not later this season. There is still a solid base of talent currently on the team and the bullpen is deep and experienced.

How can people look at a core of talent that includes:

Maggs
Konerko
Frank
Borchard
Crede
Lee

Buehrle
Garland
Wright
Wunsch
Marte
Osuna
Glover
Foulke

and be down on the future prospects of the club.


I would add Biddle and Ginter to that list -- both have given indication this year that they are/will shortly be effective major league pitchers.

Kilroy
06-21-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

So I really don't care how we do against the Twins in the next couple of weeks. I'm tired of pie in the sky somewhere down the line. This team isn't going to win now, and unless the way it is run changes fundamentally, it's not going to any time in the near future.

Isn't that kinda silly? You gotta crawl before you can walk. We gotta beat the Twins and get them behind us before we can entertain thoughts of playoff success.

Sounds to me like what you want is a Sox team that will come out and dominate from wire to wire like the 96/97 Bulls did. We ain't got that. But that doesn't mean that this Sox team can't be the last team standing THIS year.

Are they playing like crap? Yes indeed. Can they play better than they have? Yes again. Yet as bad as they have been, they are still close to first place. They have to get in the playoffs and put the best baseball they can on display then.

I wonder, if you were a Diamondback fan last year, if, at the beginning of the World Series, you would have been resigned to the fact that the Yankees were going to win. I'd say so given the attitude you have about the Sox on June 21!

Is it better to have no hope/faith and be right or to continue to have hope/faith and be wrong?

TornLabrum
06-21-2002, 02:48 PM
Isn't that kinda silly? You gotta crawl before you can walk. We gotta beat the Twins and get them behind us before we can entertain thoughts of playoff success.

And what makes you think we can have any kind of success against the Twins. As Rooney noted the other day, "The Sox think they can beat the Twins this year. The Twins know they can beat the White Sox." After all, they've done it the past two years. To put it another way, you have to have arms and legs before you can crawl.

Sounds to me like what you want is a Sox team that will come out and dominate from wire to wire like the 96/97 Bulls did. We ain't got that. But that doesn't mean that this Sox team can't be the last team standing THIS year.

What we have this year is a team that 72 games into the season is 36-36. That's .500, and .500 clubs don't make it to the playoffs.

Are they playing like crap? Yes indeed. Can they play better than they have? Yes again. Yet as bad as they have been, they are still close to first place. They have to get in the playoffs and put the best baseball they can on display then.

I remember being 3.5 games out on July 30 and having two starters and a closer traded away. Were we close? You bet. Could we have played better? You bet. Did Reinsdorf give them a chance? No way. What makes you think this year will be any different than '97? This team has the worst defense in the league and leads the league in unearned runs. This is only a playoff team if the Twins completely collapse.

I wonder, if you were a Diamondback fan last year, if, at the beginning of the World Series, you would have been resigned to the fact that the Yankees were going to win. I'd say so given the attitude you have about the Sox on June 21!

The Diamondbacks could at least throw Schilling and Johnson at the Yankees, and they have a good defensive ballclub. The 2002 Sox have no one of that caliber to throw at anybody. Buehrle is good, but not that good yet. I won't even talk about Ritchie, lifetime .500 pitcher who cost us 3 arms. Garland and Wison are coming along nicely. We have no consistent fifth starter. We may not need one in the post-season, but we need one now.

Is it better to have no hope/faith and be right or to continue to have hope/faith and be wrong?

Faith in Reinsdorf and Williams and Manuel is misplaced faith. These guys have a track record of screwing up.

BigKlu59
06-21-2002, 03:07 PM
I have to side with labrum on this one.I dont post much and spew unless I see the need to throw a couple of coppers in the hat. This is a biased board with alot of intelligent banter and I see no reason for punches being pulled when it comes to a critique of of beloved Pale Hose.I've been accused of a sky is falling mentality in the past,but have yet to be proven wrong by this team and its mgt. moves.
What burns me up as with Hal as we've seen some teams with more heart and less talent do the the impossible while the talented core of the organization today cant seem to (or want to) develope a killer mentality. Thats what wins championships, not going 162-0 and sweeping thru the play offs."Cajones of Steel".I think you've mistaken our objectivity as a death knell.Its not.
Baseball is a tough game to play.I wouldnt be yapping here if didnt know what having a 90+MPH heater feels like wizzing by my pie hole.
I guess I'm also jaded to the fact I was one of the lucky few here on the board to experience the Nuts and Guts Sox of the 60's.Call it playing out of fear of losing your job or a purists lament,but those teams with less talent busted their asses twice as hard. and came a hell of alot closer to the promised land than JR's plug and play 80's-90's version of a mercury thermometer.Hal and I are tired of being sold the same rotten toothed nag and we see the Emperor in the buff........or then again maybe its just BOWMS;)
(Bitter Old White Mans Syndrome)
Big Klu 59

:bigklu

LuvChiSox
06-21-2002, 03:35 PM
Unfortunately, I too am riding in TL's (Hal's) boat.

I think the Sox have a formidable offense (when they're not all slumping at the same time!), but not enough pitching to keep them in contention.

So another season drags on, and again, and as usual, our only solace is watching the scrubbies slowly sink into the abyss of the NL once again.

Procol Harum
06-21-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by BigKlu59
[B
I guess I'm also jaded to the fact I was one of the lucky few here on the board to experience the Nuts and Guts Sox of the 60's.Call it playing out of fear of losing your job or a purists lament,but those teams with less talent busted their asses twice as hard. and came a hell of alot closer to the promised land than JR's plug and play 80's-90's version of a mercury thermometer.[/B]

Well said, BOWM BK59. Those teams were my "Boys of Summer" and established a template in my mind as to the sort of effort I, as a White Sox fan, expect to see from my ballclub--gritty, fundamentally sound, heads in the game. If those teams from '63 thru '67 would have had half the physical talent of some of the Sox teams of the last 10 years they would have established a dynasty we'd still be talking about in PaleHoseLand. All the more reasons why the current crew--which showed some promising signs of the same sort of toughness in 2000--so exasperating.

voodoochile
06-21-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


And what makes you think we can have any kind of success against the Twins. As Rooney noted the other day, "The Sox think they can beat the Twins this year. The Twins know they can beat the White Sox." After all, they've done it the past two years. To put it another way, you have to have arms and legs before you can crawl. What we have this year is a team that 72 games into the season is 36-36. That's .500, and .500 clubs don't make it to the playoffs... This team has the worst defense in the league and leads the league in unearned runs. This is only a playoff team if the Twins completely collapse.

Yep, the team is 36-36 with their AS second baseman, All-World DH, "best-in-the-league-these-last-two-years" closer and #2 pitcher all performing well below their career averages, a bullpen that is just now finding it's stride after the team was forced to rip it apart to find their 5th starter in early May and two (essentially) rookies starting and still finding consistency. If the problems start to turn around and the young starters continue to improve then the team should do much better in the second half and will bode well for next year when all of those players will be back except for the 2B (probably).

As to the Twins, I guess we will have to wait and see. All of us including you and Rooney will find out starting Monday. If you guys are right, then there won't be any playoffs on the SS this year. However, if the team plays up to its capabilities against the Twins, they should walk away with the division.

I remember being 3.5 games out on July 30 and having two starters and a closer traded away. Were we close? You bet. Could we have played better? You bet. Did Reinsdorf give them a chance? No way. What makes you think this year will be any different than '97?... Faith in Reinsdorf and Williams and Manuel is misplaced faith. These guys have a track record of screwing up.

Oh get over it until it happens again...


The Diamondbacks could at least throw Schilling and Johnson at the Yankees, and they have a good defensive ballclub. The 2002 Sox have no one of that caliber to throw at anybody. Buehrle is good, but not that good yet. I won't even talk about Ritchie, lifetime .500 pitcher who cost us 3 arms. Garland and Wison are coming along nicely. We have no consistent fifth starter. We may not need one in the post-season, but we need one now.

A 5th starter would be nice, but Glover hasn't been that bad and like Wright and Garland has shown signs of coming around. Face the facts, the Sox are going to go with young pitchers who develop. They can't afford to spend money with the big boys. Man do I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't. Perhaps you would rather have a team on the verge of bankruptcy like the D-Backs - I do agree, I wish we had a team like the Yankees... Still, as you point out, the Sox won't need a 5th starter in the playoffs. If Wright and Garland continue to develop, the Sox will have 3 solid live arms to throw at teams come playoff time. If Ritchie finds his early season form, the team will have 4. But, I don't expect this to be our year. I admit to being less optimistic than I was early in the year, but also admit that I was probably blinded a bit by optimism back then after the signing of Lofton and the acquisition of Ritchie. Heck, Ritchie might be one of the bodies traded should the Sox fall far enough out that they decide to go that route - someone will take him based on past year performances, but we would not get fair value for him...

Whether you chose to believe in the team or not, won't matter to the Sox and their success or lack thereof at all. However, it is the first day of summer and baseball is the only game in town. I prefer to ponder the possibilities rather than wonder and worry about the past history and potential pitfalls (whew... too many P's :D: ). If ragging on the team is what makes anyone happy, than heck, knock youselves out. I for one won't go along for the ride and should the Sox fall out of contention, I won't slit my wrists, I'll hope that baseball finds a way to solve it's labor problems and that there is baseball next year so the team can come back strong with more experience for another year to try again...

pudge
06-21-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by DVG



YEEEEOUCH!!! But ya know what, Hal has absolutely nothing on
Dan Helpingstine. Every time I read his stuff, I want to crack out
a straight-edge razor and end it all. I think he graduated from
the Tennessee Williams school of writing.

If he's the guy who wrote that book and was trying to sell it, I have to sadly agree. That's some of the worst writing I've ever seen. Sorry.

Bucktown
06-21-2002, 11:35 PM
Am I missing something here? Didn't the Sox have the best record in the league year before last? Didn't the Sox have one of the best records in the 90s?

This club hasn't finished last since the 80's. They have 3 division titles in the last ten years. Only Cleveland has won more. The people in Milwaukee, Minnesota, Detroit and KC are the big losers.

I for one am not afraid of the Twins. Hell, they just got shut-out by the Phillies. If you haven't noticed they have been very mediocre lately. They have had our number the last two years, but those things run in cycles and now it is time for the pendulum to swing.

I grant you the right to complain about the past, even though we disagree with how bad it really has been. But to complain about the future because you are certain it will be bad makes no sense at all. Where I am from we call that "belly aching."

-Will

Paulwny
06-22-2002, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!

Raines, Johnson & Ozzie were all heading into their last few years with the Sox as well.

Ozzie, 4 more years with the sox
Johnson, 2 more years, left because JR wouldn't pay the fa money
othewise he'd have played another 4-5 yrs.

FanOf14
06-22-2002, 10:51 AM
TornLabrum wasn't belly-aching as some have put it, he stated facts. When talking about the future of this organization, he stated things that probably will happen unless JR wakes up and gets it in gear...which after doing the same things for 21 years, probably won't happen. If actions truely speak louder than words, it looks to me that he is more concerned about lining his pockets than bring a world series to Chicago.

My mom was alive for the '59 series and just listening to her talk about it makes me hungry for more baseball. I wish the players on this team would have more heart and play like there is no tomorrow, because if Bud and Don have their way, there may not be for baseball.

BTW - Just because we had the best record in the AL in 2000 didn't mean jack because it took us to a 3 and out playoff series. Look at what the 2001 Mariners did - 116 regular season wins just to look like a joke in the post season - they barely got past the Indians to be offed by NY.

alohafri
06-22-2002, 11:41 AM
I have to back Hal on this as well. This team is not going anywhere. We have the potential for being a dynamic hitting team, but everyone seems to slump at the same time. Frank either needs to get his head together or he still hasn't fully recovered from his injury. Maggs is either hurt or isn't hustling for some reason. Ray is comitting errors at a pace to commit nearly 30. Royce Clayton is hitting worse than Mark Belanger. The only consistent pitcher we have is Mark Buehrle, although John Garland is showing flashes of what the predictions for him were. Disco Danny Wright has shown some improvement. But Todd Ritchie is the worst. He is Jamie Navarro reborn. Not to mention that we don't even have 5th starter.

Our manager and "pitching coach" are married to the pitch count. If a guy is pitching well, it becomes "oops, he has 100 pitches, bring him out." I'm not that confident in our bullpen. If a guy is getting knocked around, it becomes, "he hasn't even thrown 70 pitches, leave him in." Why was Todd Ritchie left in so long last Sunday when the Cubs were using him for batting practice?

It isn't a matter the glass being half full or half empty. The truth of the matter is that this is not a good ball club. If we win this division, it will be because of the Twins losing their number one and number two starters for most of the season.

As for our minor league system, it is not as good as it once was. For whatever reason, the Sox have no interest in bringing Joe Crede up, and for this reason alone, Lenny Williams should be fired.

Kilroy
06-22-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And what makes you think we can have any kind of success against the Twins. As Rooney noted the other day, "The Sox think they can beat the Twins this year. The Twins know they can beat the White Sox." After all, they've done it the past two years. To put it another way, you have to have arms and legs before you can crawl.

Just like the Yankees and Indians knew they could beat the Sox in 2k, right? The Twins know ****. Last year means nothing. If it did, they should just not bother playing the games and just say the the Twins will win 14 of 19 again. By the same token, if you're so sure the Sox will lose, you shouldn't bother to watch.


What we have this year is a team that 72 games into the season is 36-36. That's .500, and .500 clubs don't make it to the playoffs.

Teams that have only played 72 games don't make it to the playoffs either.


I remember being 3.5 games out on July 30 and having two starters and a closer traded away. Were we close? You bet. Could we have played better? You bet. Did Reinsdorf give them a chance? No way. What makes you think this year will be any different than '97? This team has the worst defense in the league and leads the league in unearned runs. This is only a playoff team if the Twins completely collapse.

If you remember all that, you should be able to remember that there was no plan to re-sign any of those players, and you should also remember how that move put quite a bit of wealth into the Sox system. It was the right move then, even without looking at what Alvarez, Hernandez, and Darwin or the players that we got have done since. But looking at that makes it a slam dunk.



The Diamondbacks could at least throw Schilling and Johnson at the Yankees, and they have a good defensive ballclub. The 2002 Sox have no one of that caliber to throw at anybody.

That wasn't the point. The point was that the type of fan you seem to be, you would have packed it in facing the Yankees. Even with Schilling and Johnson, no one thought they'd beat the Yankees, even tho damn near everyone who wasn't a New Yawwker want them to get beat. Paulwny included of course.

Paulwny
06-22-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy

Even with Schilling and Johnson, no one thought they'd beat the Yankees, even tho damn near everyone who wasn't a New Yawwker want them to get beat. Paulwny included of course. [/B]

You're right. How many here believe that the bosox with Pedro and Lowe can win the east? Yet, they might.
How many don't believe that even if the bosox win the east the yankmees will still win the WS as a wild card team?