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View Full Version : White flag finally goes up on the South Side.


Danielgosox38
06-10-2010, 12:59 AM
Changes are coming folks, as we figured they were....


http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/06/white_flag_finally_goes_up_on.html

Sockinchisox
06-10-2010, 01:45 AM
Sounds like he still wants to try to "rebuild on the fly" rather than blow it up.

thomas35forever
06-10-2010, 01:59 AM
Most of us waved the white flag awhile ago.

guillensdisciple
06-10-2010, 04:15 AM
Not yet, not yet.

Just hold out a little bit- finish June and start trading. It's still early, and many of us have given up but damn me for trying. I am giving it one last push.

TDog
06-10-2010, 05:45 AM
People continue to get excited as if the White Sox making trades will lead to a bright new future.

When Kenny Williams says "it's economics," it sounds to me like he is talking about trading Alex Rios and his huge contract. Jake Peavy may be a tougher sell because he hasn't pitched well this season. If Peavy goes, it will probably be in a contract dump similar to what was necessary to rid the team of the Nick Swisher burden. Neither deal would make Sox fans happy.

It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

Frontman
06-10-2010, 07:51 AM
Exactly Tdog. Times after the previous White Flag trades were bleak on the Southside.

Players are going to be moved; no question there. I just hope we have something to build around when the smoke clears.

doublem23
06-10-2010, 07:58 AM
Exactly Tdog. Times after the previous White Flag trades were bleak on the Southside.

Players are going to be moved; no question there. I just hope we have something to build around when the smoke clears.

That 2 year wait to get back to the postseason?

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2010, 09:43 AM
People continue to get excited as if the White Sox making trades will lead to a bright new future.

When Kenny Williams says "it's economics," it sounds to me like he is talking about trading Alex Rios and his huge contract. Jake Peavy may be a tougher sell because he hasn't pitched well this season. If Peavy goes, it will probably be in a contract dump similar to what was necessary to rid the team of the Nick Swisher burden. Neither deal would make Sox fans happy.

It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

I don't think Rios is going anywhere.

Tragg
06-10-2010, 09:57 AM
That 2 year wait to get back to the postseason?

Well, if you see Ordonez, Lee, Buehrle and Durham in this organization ready to blossom, let us know.

Williams needs to be atop his game.

Moses_Scurry
06-10-2010, 09:57 AM
People continue to get excited as if the White Sox making trades will lead to a bright new future.

When Kenny Williams says "it's economics," it sounds to me like he is talking about trading Alex Rios and his huge contract. Jake Peavy may be a tougher sell because he hasn't pitched well this season. If Peavy goes, it will probably be in a contract dump similar to what was necessary to rid the team of the Nick Swisher burden. Neither deal would make Sox fans happy.

It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

I don't necessarily think people are excited. It's just that for 2010, there really isn't all that much else to talk about or look forward to. I'll be mildly interested in seeing how our lone all-star representative performs. Other than that and the firesale, there's not much left to be interested in (positively or negatively) for this season as far as the Sox are concerned. I'm more interested in following Strasburg than anything else!

harwar
06-10-2010, 10:00 AM
Not yet, not yet.

Just hold out a little bit- finish June and start trading. It's still early, and many of us have given up but damn me for trying. I am giving it one last push.

I feel the same way .. i just can't seem to totally give up .. unlike some on here, i'm in no rush to dismantle this team .. i mean,what's the big hurry for that anyway .. i'm sure not looking forward to the next few years if that happens .. i sat through many bad teams and bad season's in my time .. anyway, i just hope and pray that when that does happen that Ken Williams knows how to fix this thing ..

NLaloosh
06-10-2010, 10:03 AM
Yeah, sounds like a few deals will be made so that maybe the team can finish with 80 wins. Woo hoo!

There will be no rebuilding. Next year more of the same mediocrity.

soltrain21
06-10-2010, 10:16 AM
This rebuilding on the fly or "reloading" on the fly just doesn't work. Give this team an identity, then try to build around that identity. And actually stick with it. Don't try to change what you are every year.

doublem23
06-10-2010, 10:17 AM
Well, if you see Ordonez, Lee, Buehrle and Durham in this organization ready to blossom, let us know.

Williams needs to be atop his game.

That's not the point, half the folks around here are bemoaning blowing this expensive, crappy team up because "it will be a painful 3-5 years for the Sox" nonsense.

All we know right now is the Sox, as assembled, suck. Start ripping them apart and see what happens.

FWIW, when the Sox imploded their team in 1997, Durham was the only proven commodity you mentioned, who had been in the Majors since 1995 and was establishing himself as a very solid young infielder. Maggs was not a highly touted prospect until he blossomed into an excellent hitter at Nashville in 1997. El Caballo was in A-ball. Mark Buehrle, for ****'s sake, didn't even get Drafted until the 38th Round in 1998.

I can't guarantee the Sox will make a quick turnaround. But I know if they sit on their hands, it'll just be more of the same.

asindc
06-10-2010, 10:29 AM
That's not the point, half the folks around here are bemoaning blowing this expensive, crappy team up because "it will be a painful 3-5 years for the Sox" nonsense.

All we know right now is the Sox, as assembled, suck. Start ripping them apart and see what happens.

FWIW, when the Sox imploded their team in 1997, Durham was the only proven commodity you mentioned, who had been in the Majors since 1995 and was establishing himself as a very solid young infielder. Maggs was not a highly touted prospect until he blossomed into an excellent hitter at Nashville in 1997. El Caballo was in A-ball. Mark Buehrle, for ****'s sake, didn't even get Drafted until the 38th Round in 1998.

I can't guarantee the Sox will make a quick turnaround. But I know if they sit on their hands, it'll just be more of the same.

The "see what happens" part is what management, especially ownership, is concerned with. They are concerned that "what happens" is that many Sox fans, including current season ticket holders and some who are now clamoring for the team to be broken up, will stop attending games, not buying merchandise, and stop watching or listening to games on TV and radio. In short, they are concerned that Sox fans will not support a rebuilding process that might take at least three years and could take more than that.

This is not to say that I disagree that a rebuilding process should begin now, but if the question is why it hasn't it begun yet, that would most likely be the primary reason why.

Huisj
06-10-2010, 10:36 AM
People continue to get excited as if the White Sox making trades will lead to a bright new future.

When Kenny Williams says "it's economics," it sounds to me like he is talking about trading Alex Rios and his huge contract. Jake Peavy may be a tougher sell because he hasn't pitched well this season. If Peavy goes, it will probably be in a contract dump similar to what was necessary to rid the team of the Nick Swisher burden. Neither deal would make Sox fans happy.

It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

He says getting rid of free-agents-to-be and other inflated contracts. I guess that could be interpreted as Rios or Peavy, but honestly, I don't think those are the guys that are going to be traded. Those are guys that will be kept as centerpieces to "retool" around, whatever that involves.

Hitmen77
06-10-2010, 10:40 AM
That's not the point, half the folks around here are bemoaning blowing this expensive, crappy team up because "it will be a painful 3-5 years for the Sox" nonsense.

All we know right now is the Sox, as assembled, suck. Start ripping them apart and see what happens.

FWIW, when the Sox imploded their team in 1997, Durham was the only proven commodity you mentioned, who had been in the Majors since 1995 and was establishing himself as a very solid young infielder. Maggs was not a highly touted prospect until he blossomed into an excellent hitter at Nashville in 1997. El Caballo was in A-ball. Mark Buehrle, for ****'s sake, didn't even get Drafted until the 38th Round in 1998.

I can't guarantee the Sox will make a quick turnaround. But I know if they sit on their hands, it'll just be more of the same.

That would never happen today. Now we just give those late draft picks to Ozzie's and Kenny's relatives....and have Ozzie consider that a slap in the face on top of it.

Until this team starts developing some real talent from our minor league system, blowing up this team or not isn't going to make us a contender.

If the Sox start trading away this team, don't expect real talent like we see Minnesota, Detroit, and Cleveland often acquire. Be expected to say hello to the next Jon Adkins, Michael Dubee, and Jeff "next Jon Garland" Marquez if we trade away our starters.

Dibbs
06-10-2010, 10:56 AM
I think we were killed before having a chance to wave a white flag. It's pretty sad to say, but I wouldn't be upset to see anyone go outside of Danks and Beckham.

Tragg
06-10-2010, 11:56 AM
I can't guarantee the Sox will make a quick turnaround. But I know if they sit on their hands, it'll just be more of the same.
That's fine.
But pick a method and stick with it.

Don't trade young pitchers for Peavy on the DL, and then change tactics for "economics" a year later.....don't send a rookie of the year candidate for Juan Pierre. Don't waste scarce resources on Kotsay.

I didn't think the white flag trade turned out too well but it wasn't that poorly conceived ...but at least we got 7 young players for those veterans, 2 or 3 of whom were legitimate prospects and one top prospect.
I'm all for unassembling this team, but don't start giving away players for organizational minor leaguers and grade C prospects like he's done in the past.
After all, KW, YOU traded a good prospect for a middle reliever more than once; YOU traded 4 pitchers for an older veteran. YOU traded 3 top prospects for a good, not great, Swisher. See if someone will return the favor.

Because Williams is so public with his desire to trade salary, my guess is that it will be another edition of giveaway city: Buy high, sell low is no way to build.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 12:23 PM
People continue to get excited as if the White Sox making trades will lead to a bright new future.

When Kenny Williams says "it's economics," it sounds to me like he is talking about trading Alex Rios and his huge contract. Jake Peavy may be a tougher sell because he hasn't pitched well this season. If Peavy goes, it will probably be in a contract dump similar to what was necessary to rid the team of the Nick Swisher burden. Neither deal would make Sox fans happy.

It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

No it would be Buehrle and AJ before Rios.

Iwritecode
06-10-2010, 12:26 PM
It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

Besides the anomaly 8 miles north, is there really a fanbase that does?

NLaloosh
06-10-2010, 12:27 PM
The "see what happens" part is what management, especially ownership, is concerned with. They are concerned that "what happens" is that many Sox fans, including current season ticket holders and some who are now clamoring for the team to be broken up, will stop attending games, not buying merchandise, and stop watching or listening to games on TV and radio. In short, they are concerned that Sox fans will not support a rebuilding process that might take at least three years and could take more than that.

This is not to say that I disagree that a rebuilding process should begin now, but if the question is why it hasn't it begun yet, that would most likely be the primary reason why.

Personally, I'd rather watch a team full of high school kids lose 130 games for a couple of years if it meant that we would have a professional organization from top to bottom at some point.

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2010, 12:36 PM
Blowing up the team would not be as dire as some of you think. In this age of free agency and with some smart trades a team can go from last place to contenders in one year. Guys that I would really like to see go are Alexei, TCQ, Jenks, AJ and Buerhle. I want Paulie to finish his career on the southside as the DH. I don't know what to think of Beckham, he has been a major disapointment. Peavy will come around as will Floyd. Danks and Rios are keepers.

Hitmen77
06-10-2010, 12:56 PM
That's fine.
But pick a method and stick with it.

Don't trade young pitchers for Peavy on the DL, and then change tactics for "economics" a year later.....don't send a rookie of the year candidate for Juan Pierre. Don't waste scarce resources on Kotsay.
I didn't think the white flag trade turned out too well but it wasn't that poorly conceived ...but at least we got 7 young players for those veterans, 2 or 3 of whom were legitimate prospects and one top prospect.
I'm all for unassembling this team, but don't start giving away players for organizational minor leaguers and grade C prospects like he's done in the past.
After all, KW, YOU traded a good prospect for a middle reliever more than once; YOU traded 4 pitchers for an older veteran. YOU traded 3 top prospects for a good, not great, Swisher. See if someone will return the favor.

Because Williams is so public with his desire to trade salary, my guess is that it will be another edition of giveaway city: Buy high, sell low is no way to build.

Well said. That's the problem with the way the team is run. Buy high when acquiring Swisher, sell low when trading away Swisher. We have enough money to acquire Peavy for 2010, but we don't have enough money for a passable offense. We're sending a top prospect for Juan Pierre, but then don't have enough money to even fill out a 9-hitter lineup.....then when the gamble on this season flops, sell low again.

No it would be Buehrle and AJ before Rios.

Given how much Buehrle will be owed to any team acquiring him ($15 million/yr through 2012) and how much his performance has dropped, any trade of him would be a salary dump....and I don't know if he's all that tradeable even if a team just gives us garbage in return. Perhaps, as others have said, an NL team will think he'll rebound pitching in their inferior league.

Personally, I'd rather watch a team full of high school kids lose 130 games for a couple of years if it meant that we would have a professional organization from top to bottom at some point.

The problem is, I don't have much confidence at all that gutting this team and going the 100 loss route in the short term would give us a pennant contender in the end. This organization doesn't seem to be able to develop talent.

asindc
06-10-2010, 01:04 PM
Personally, I'd rather watch a team full of high school kids lose 130 games for a couple of years if it meant that we would have a professional organization from top to bottom at some point.

The question is would you financially support such a team while they were rebuilding? It is something every sports franchise has to think about.

mantis1212
06-10-2010, 01:34 PM
This rebuilding on the fly or "reloading" on the fly just doesn't work. Give this team an identity, then try to build around that identity. And actually stick with it. Don't try to change what you are every year.

2005 was rebuilding on the fly. Dye, Podednik, Iguchi, AJ, El Duque all were acquired in the previous offseason. That's 4 of the 8 regular position players replaced in one offseason- plus a starter and the bullpen (althought bullpens turn over every year pretty much).

Of the big for starters, two were acquired halfway through the 2004 season.

soltrain21
06-10-2010, 01:37 PM
2005 was rebuilding on the fly. Dye, Podednik, Iguchi, AJ, El Duque all were acquired in the previous offseason. That's 4 of the 8 regular position players replaced in one offseason- plus a starter and the bullpen (althought bullpens turn over every year pretty much).

Of the big for starters, two were acquired halfway through the 2004 season.

But that changed the direction of the franchise and they acquired good players.

NLaloosh
06-10-2010, 01:40 PM
The question is would you financially support such a team while they were rebuilding? It is something every sports franchise has to think about.

That's a good question. Honestly, I would completely support a true commitment to rebuilding.

If the Sox traded everyone this year that makes over $ 3 mil a year for nothing but prospects and truly re-invested that money into scouting, coaching and player development I would be thrilled.

I would love to be one of those teams that has several exciting young players coming through each year. That's fun! That's worth coming to the ballpark for - not to see Mark Kotsays and other past-their-prime free agents.

mantis1212
06-10-2010, 01:41 PM
But that changed the direction of the franchise and they acquired good players.

Well, yeah, I don't think they are planning on retooling on the fly with bad players. All I'm saying is it can be done with the right moves.

asindc
06-10-2010, 01:44 PM
That's a good question. Honestly, I would completely support a true commitment to rebuilding.

If the Sox traded everyone this year that makes over $ 3 mil a year for nothing but prospects and truly re-invested that money into scouting, coaching and player development I would be thrilled.

I would love to be one of those teams that has several exciting young players coming through each year. That's fun! That's worth coming to the ballpark for - not to see Mark Kotsays and other past-their-prime free agents.

Glad to read that. I'm a big believer in putting your money where your mouth is. I wish all fans were as big-picture oriented as you seem to be, but alas...

mantis1212
06-10-2010, 01:56 PM
That's a good question. Honestly, I would completely support a true commitment to rebuilding.

If the Sox traded everyone this year that makes over $ 3 mil a year for nothing but prospects and truly re-invested that money into scouting, coaching and player development I would be thrilled.

I would love to be one of those teams that has several exciting young players coming through each year. That's fun! That's worth coming to the ballpark for - not to see Mark Kotsays and other past-their-prime free agents.

This is a Tampa Bay Ray approach. How long did it take them to do that? Over 10 years.

If you asked people about Dye, El Duque, and AJ in 2004 many would say they were past their prime.

pudge
06-10-2010, 02:01 PM
Until this team starts developing some real talent from our minor league system, blowing up this team or not isn't going to make us a contender.

If the Sox start trading away this team, don't expect real talent like we see Minnesota, Detroit, and Cleveland often acquire. Be expected to say hello to the next Jon Adkins, Michael Dubee, and Jeff "next Jon Garland" Marquez if we trade away our starters.

This is it right here - you have to mix some homegrown talent with some timely FA acquisitions. And you have to have some pitching depth, so when a guy like Floyd decides he's going to crap his pants, you have someone else to plug in. Easier said than done, I realize...

NLaloosh
06-10-2010, 02:09 PM
This is a Tampa Bay Ray approach. How long did it take them to do that? Over 10 years.

If you asked people about Dye, El Duque, and AJ in 2004 many would say they were past their prime.

It wouldn't take 10 years to start adding good young talent to Beckham, Danks, Rios, Ramirez, Quentin, Hudson, Viciedo, Flowers, Morel, Santos, Pena etc.

The team could still be interesting and exciting to watch within 2-3 years.

Look at what the Washington Nationals have done in the last 3 years.

How long did ii take the Florida Marlins to win the World Series?

TDog
06-10-2010, 02:15 PM
No it would be Buehrle and AJ before Rios.

I honestly don't believe Buehrle's contract would make it possible to trade him. He wanted a no-trade clause, and the financial terms, coupled with his disappointing performance, would make Peavy easier to trade. Pending free agents may go, but they are likely to bring little in return. The trade with the Giants in 1997 brought surprisingly little in return, considering the White Sox gave up two starters and their closer. Barcelo was supposed to be the future star in that deal.

I think people will be upset that players are traded for so little in return, especially considering who will take their place. Tyler Flowers is no Buster Posey, at the plate or behind it.

I went to see the White Sox play in Anaheim two days after trade with the Giants, the night after Scott Eyre made his major league debut, losing 9-1. I got to see Chris Clemons give up five in the second en route to losing in his major league debut. It is true that the White Sox had a slightly better record before the deal than after the deal, that Reinsdorf was most likely right that the team wasn't going to catch the Indians, but the rest of 1997 was painful. And 1998 and 1999 were painful seasons. The players that contributed to the success in 2000 were players the White Sox could have picked up from the Giants for a whole lot less, considering that Foulke and Howry were considered trade fodder. That trade didn't portend a bright future.

The best trading chip the White Sox now have, the one likely to bring back the best talent in return is Rios. They claimed him off waivers when his value was at its lowest. The White Sox effusively took him off the scrap heap and polished him up. He would be the anti-Swisher for the White Sox, someone who would bring back considerably more than the Sox gave up to acquire.

pythons007
06-10-2010, 02:37 PM
People continue to get excited as if the White Sox making trades will lead to a bright new future.

When Kenny Williams says "it's economics," it sounds to me like he is talking about trading Alex Rios and his huge contract. Jake Peavy may be a tougher sell because he hasn't pitched well this season. If Peavy goes, it will probably be in a contract dump similar to what was necessary to rid the team of the Nick Swisher burden. Neither deal would make Sox fans happy.

It isn't like White Sox fans financially support their team in down times.

This is interesting. If Rios plays like he is capable of playing and currently on a 30/30 pace and plays great defense, his contract is a steal. To have still more years under contract and you might have a very good trade chip that you didn't give up anything to obtain.

Think of it this way, Loiaza circa 03-04. We signed him as a string trainee invitee and we ended up getting a CY Young year, then a trade chip that helped us win a World Series.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for Rios to stay, but he could potentially alone net us something to put our minor league system back on the map.

russ99
06-10-2010, 02:40 PM
That's not the point, half the folks around here are bemoaning blowing this expensive, crappy team up because "it will be a painful 3-5 years for the Sox" nonsense.

All we know right now is the Sox, as assembled, suck. Start ripping them apart and see what happens.

FWIW, when the Sox imploded their team in 1997, Durham was the only proven commodity you mentioned, who had been in the Majors since 1995 and was establishing himself as a very solid young infielder. Maggs was not a highly touted prospect until he blossomed into an excellent hitter at Nashville in 1997. El Caballo was in A-ball. Mark Buehrle, for ****'s sake, didn't even get Drafted until the 38th Round in 1998.

I can't guarantee the Sox will make a quick turnaround. But I know if they sit on their hands, it'll just be more of the same.

That's the thing. Completely blowing up is an awful idea. Keeping the team the same is worse.

I'm for a middle solution. Move some pieces and bring in talent, call up the kids and let's see what we get. Then this offseason Sox brass can figure out if we should spend up to contention or cut payroll and do more of a rebuild.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 02:45 PM
I honestly don't believe Buehrle's contract would make it possible to trade him. He wanted a no-trade clause, and the financial terms, coupled with his disappointing performance, would make Peavy easier to trade. Pending free agents may go, but they are likely to bring little in return. The trade with the Giants in 1997 brought surprisingly little in return, considering the White Sox gave up two starters and their closer. Barcelo was supposed to be the future star in that deal.

I think people will be upset that players are traded for so little in return, especially considering who will take their place. Tyler Flowers is no Buster Posey, at the plate or behind it.

I went to see the White Sox play in Anaheim two days after trade with the Giants, the night after Scott Eyre made his major league debut, losing 9-1. I got to see Chris Clemons give up five in the second en route to losing in his major league debut. It is true that the White Sox had a slightly better record before the deal than after the deal, that Reinsdorf was most likely right that the team wasn't going to catch the Indians, but the rest of 1997 was painful. And 1998 and 1999 were painful seasons. The players that contributed to the success in 2000 were players the White Sox could have picked up from the Giants for a whole lot less, considering that Foulke and Howry were considered trade fodder. That trade didn't portend a bright future.

The best trading chip the White Sox now have, the one likely to bring back the best talent in return is Rios. They claimed him off waivers when his value was at its lowest. The White Sox effusively took him off the scrap heap and polished him up. He would be the anti-Swisher for the White Sox, someone who would bring back considerably more than the Sox gave up to acquire.

Well I guess it comes down to how far Kenny thinks he needs to go in terms of dismantling the team.

For me keeping the big 4 starters, Rios, Ramirez, Beckham and Quentin at least gives them something to build around. I also think Pierre is worth his contract from the production he's giving (especially with his better than expected defense in LF).

PK probably isn't going anywhere because of his NT rights, but maybe he agrees to go to the Angels. I expect he'll be the last person traded - much closer to the trade deadline if he goes anywhere at all because there's no pressure to trade him before an arbitrary deadline (like with Buehrle and AJ).

However, if KW is looking to tear it all the way down (which I don't expect) then you might as well put everything on the block because by the time the Sox get competitive again, the long term contracts will be over or close to it and the Arb eligible players will be hitting UFA and able to go wherever they want which means there's no point in keeping anyone as a few big name stars won't matter with the direction the team will be headed.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-10-2010, 03:09 PM
It wouldn't take 10 years to start adding good young talent to Beckham, Danks, Rios, Ramirez, Quentin, Hudson, Viciedo, Flowers, Morel, Santos, Pena etc.

The team could still be interesting and exciting to watch within 2-3 years.

Look at what the Washington Nationals have done in the last 3 years.

How long did ii take the Florida Marlins to win the World Series?

Well I guess it comes down to how far Kenny thinks he needs to go in terms of dismantling the team.

For me keeping the big 4 starters, Rios, Ramirez, Beckham and Quentin at least gives them something to build around. I also think Pierre is worth his contract from the production he's giving (especially with his better than expected defense in LF).

I don't understand the attitude that Alexei Ramirez and Carlos Quentin should be penciled in as starters for years to come. I, for one, would like the Sox to look for an upgrade at shortshop. If the White Sox find another use for him, fine...but I would like to see a SS that can field the position AND hit all year long. This "slow start" BS from Alexei is ridiculous. How long to we have to wait for this guy to start swinging the bat...June 1? By that time we could be out of it....oh wait, we already are this year.

And, I am not convinced that 2008 wasn't just a fluke year for Quentin. He hasn't done much to prove otherwise. And, I know I am not the only one that thinks that about TCQ. Look for an upgrade in RF. His defense isn't good, either.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 03:25 PM
I don't understand the attitude that Alexei Ramirez and Carlos Quentin should be penciled in as starters for years to come. I, for one, would like the Sox to look for an upgrade at shortshop. If the White Sox find another use for him, fine...but I would like to see a SS that can field the position AND hit all year long. This "slow start" BS from Alexei is ridiculous. How long to we have to wait for this guy to start swinging the bat...June 1? By that time we could be out of it....oh wait, we already are this year.

And, I am not convinced that 2008 wasn't just a fluke year for Quentin. He hasn't done much to prove otherwise. And, I know I am not the only one that thinks that about TCQ. Look for an upgrade in RF. His defense isn't good, either.

I completely disagree on Ramirez. We see different things, so discussing it might not lead to much meeting of the minds, but by both visual evidence and the best defensive stats available, Ramirez is a good defensive SS though still learning some of the nuances of the position. He also posted a .779 OPS in May and after a bit of a slow start to June is coming on again the last week, but is obviously still digging himself out of the .543 OPS he posted in April.

I just think it's too soon to give up on Quentin and selling now would be selling low, very low.

No, neither of these guys should be penciled in indefinitely at their position, but of the players available to be dumped, they are low cost high ceiling players who at least don't require the Sox to replace all 8 position starters or do you really feel that's for the best?

TDog
06-10-2010, 03:37 PM
Well I guess it comes down to how far Kenny thinks he needs to go in terms of dismantling the team.

For me keeping the big 4 starters, Rios, Ramirez, Beckham and Quentin at least gives them something to build around. I also think Pierre is worth his contract from the production he's giving (especially with his better than expected defense in LF).

PK probably isn't going anywhere because of his NT rights, but maybe he agrees to go to the Angels. I expect he'll be the last person traded - much closer to the trade deadline if he goes anywhere at all because there's no pressure to trade him before an arbitrary deadline (like with Buehrle and AJ).

However, if KW is looking to tear it all the way down (which I don't expect) then you might as well put everything on the block because by the time the Sox get competitive again, the long term contracts will be over or close to it and the Arb eligible players will be hitting UFA and able to go wherever they want which means there's no point in keeping anyone as a few big name stars won't matter with the direction the team will be headed.

It's all speculation, of course. I don't know if Rios is projected as being a core of the team. I would like him to be. Centerfield had been a mess for some time. As a hole it led to the Swisher mess. But the dust seems to have cleared there with Rios emerging as an apparent foundation of the offense while providing great defense.

But realistically I don't see Pierzynski bringing back much in return,. I don't see Konerko bringing back much in return, considering the limitations of where he could go. There isn't likely to be a bidding war for Konerko, who certainly would reject a deal to the Giants, where some writers want to send him.

I would be happy with trading Peavy to the Giants for Nate Shierholtz. And it would make some sense. The Giants have a serious fifth starter problem with Todd Wellemeyer, who complicated things by being injured today while running out a doubleplay grounder. Shierholtz looks like a good young hitter and an excellent rightfielder with a canon for an arm. I would love to have Shierholtz playing right for the Sox with Quentin DHing. Peavy for Jonathan Sanchez would be better still. Sanchez has so much potential. But he has more value than Madison Bumgarner, and Shierholtz/Bumgarner isn't going to happen. Suggesting this is a deal that the White Sox and Giants might be a pipe dream, but expecting it or being upset when it doesn't happen would be silly.

I dread the trades that seem inevitable because I know the White Sox won't get back what I want them to get back. I can remember people getting excited when the Sox got Claudell Washington for an underperforming Bobby Bonds.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-10-2010, 03:40 PM
I completely disagree on Ramirez. We see different things, so discussing it might not lead to much meeting of the minds, but by both visual evidence and the best defensive stats available, Ramirez is a good defensive SS though still learning some of the nuances of the position. He also posted a .779 OPS in May and after a bit of a slow start to June is coming on again the last week, but is obviously still digging himself out of the .543 OPS he posted in April.

I just think it's too soon to give up on Quentin and selling now would be selling low, very low.

No, neither of these guys should be penciled in indefinitely at their position, but of the players available to be dumped, they are low cost high ceiling players who at least don't require the Sox to replace all 8 position starters or do you really feel that's for the best?

I will concede some of his defensive stats to you, but hasn't he played baseball way too long to be learning some of the nuances of the position? My point about his offense was, we can't afford to have ****ty April and halfs of May from him. He is a starting SS. We need him to perform just as badly early in the year as we do late in the year. This year, with everyone slumping in April, we needed him to perform better early on.

I am not saying we should "sell" Quentin low...I just hope the White Sox don't have him penciled in at RF for the next 2-3 years. That would be a mistake. We have to be thinking upgrade, upgrade, upgrade at that position in every aspect of the game.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-10-2010, 03:44 PM
There isn't likely to be a bidding war for Konerko, who certainly would reject a deal to the Giants, where some writers want to send him.

Why are we so sure that Konerko would veto any deal not to the Angels? In an interview with Cowley last year, he said he would like to finish his career in Chicago, but would be okay with any trade that helped the White Sox. Unless, his comment only pertained to "help the White Sox get to the PLAYOFFS", then I would think his comments still stand.

Slappy
06-10-2010, 03:44 PM
Keep Rios, Danks, Santos and maybe Beckham. Everyone else is expendable/caca.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 03:46 PM
Keep Rios, Danks, Santos and maybe Beckham. Everyone else is expendable/caca.

Why Beckham? I mean just curious...

Slappy
06-10-2010, 03:51 PM
I like his hair, it's cute.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 03:54 PM
I will concede some of his defensive stats to you, but hasn't he played baseball way too long to be learning some of the nuances of the position? My point about his offense was, we can't afford to have ****ty April and halfs of May from him. He is a starting SS. We need him to perform just as badly early in the year as we do late in the year. This year, with everyone slumping in April, we needed him to perform better early on.

Well maybe he figures it out as he gets used to playing in the northern climate or maybe not and the Sox have to suffer with a guy who struggles in April but then hits .820 OPS from Mid May on (guessing here, haven't checked his splits).

Nuance of MLB level SS is a LOT different than nuance in Cuba. I have no idea how much work was put on his footwork and other nuances of playing SS when he played in Cuba. By all accounts he bounced around from position to position and even played a fair amount of CF. I see him improving in his second year as a major league SS. Also, what he lacks in footwork and knowledge, he makes up for with his range and his arm is unjustly maligned, IMO. Thus, I prefer he be left alone to grow. He's 28 so he's just entering his prime years as a player.

khan
06-10-2010, 03:56 PM
I completely disagree on Ramirez. We see different things, so discussing it might not lead to much meeting of the minds, but by both visual evidence and the best defensive stats available, Ramirez is a good defensive SS though still learning some of the nuances of the position. He also posted a .779 OPS in May and after a bit of a slow start to June is coming on again the last week, but is obviously still digging himself out of the .543 OPS he posted in April.

I just think it's too soon to give up on Quentin and selling now would be selling low, very low.

At the price, Ramirez represents good-to-great value. The SOX need more relatively cheap, relatively young players, and fewer of the ancient and/or ****ty veterans that Ozzie craves.

I don't know what the SOX could or should do with Quentin. He looks like a fraud, unfortunately. What's worse is that he's due for an automatic raise via arbitration. He's @ $3.2M this year, so what would he be at next year? $5M? He simply sucks @ $3.2M, and would be an abomination for anything more than that.

I also think it's clear that he isn't much more than a DH. Honestly, is his defense THAT much better than Dye's?

I don't think so. Neither one have more range than the interior of a phone booth. And they're both injury-prone. The only difference is that Dye has a track record of more than one good season.


I REALLY, REALLY hope that Quentin goes on a tear, simply to justify his continued existence on the SOX roster at his current or probable price for 2011.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-10-2010, 03:57 PM
He's 28 so he's just entering his prime years as a player.

Well, he says he is 28. That is always a risk when you get a player from Cuba or the DR.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 04:01 PM
Well, he says he is 28. That is always a risk when you get a player from Cuba or the DR.

Well that's just speculation and should not be factored into the decision, IMO.

guillensdisciple
06-10-2010, 04:02 PM
Could the call for the White flag be the teams attempt to spark some life into this club?

If it is, it has worked in the previous two days.

soxinem1
06-10-2010, 04:08 PM
Most of us waved the white flag awhile ago.

We could tell early on that this team was just not gelling.

At the same time, this has to be one of the earliest White Flags in team history, and definitely early for a $100+ million payroll team.

Frontman
06-10-2010, 04:10 PM
That 2 year wait to get back to the postseason?

Yeah, which could put the Sox out of playoff contention until 2012 or 2013. Four years of non-competitive baseball just to blow out salary isn't an appealing thought.

soltrain21
06-10-2010, 04:14 PM
Yeah, which could put the Sox out of playoff contention until 2012 or 2013. Four years of non-competitive baseball just to blow out salary isn't an appealing thought.

Four years of non competitive baseball with huge contracts isn't very appealing either.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-10-2010, 04:33 PM
Why are we so sure that Konerko would veto any deal not to the Angels? In an interview with Cowley last year, he said he would like to finish his career in Chicago, but would be okay with any trade that helped the White Sox. Unless, his comment only pertained to "help the White Sox get to the PLAYOFFS", then I would think his comments still stand.

Does anybody have any comments on this? I was hoping for some sort of discussion because I didn't think it was such a foregone conclusion that PK will veto any trade.

Slappy
06-10-2010, 04:45 PM
Konerko doesn't strike me as a selfish guy, and definitely not the type to veto a trade if it if it would help him and/or the team. Who knows what will happen, though? It all depends on how well the Sox are doing, how much money he's worth, etc. No trade is ever out of the question.

TDog
06-10-2010, 05:05 PM
Does anybody have any comments on this? I was hoping for some sort of discussion because I didn't think it was such a foregone conclusion that PK will veto any trade.

I think people are being overly optimistic in hoping Konerko will accept a trade. Konerko isn't going to go to a place where he doesn't feel comfortable. He is in a better position in signing next year if he stays with the Sox and puts up great offensive numbers than if he goes to a contender and has difficulty adjusting as Rios did with the Sox last year. Konerko has seen Dye go from being a World Series MVP to a player no one wants for the money and role Dye believes he deserves.

That means that Konerko is probably going to turn down deals that would send him to the National League here he is unfamiliar with the pitchers. That isn't being selfish.

The bigger point is that Konerko two or three months would not bring back in trade what many people posting here expect that he would bring back in trade.

But, as I posted earlier, it is all speculation.

kaufsox
06-10-2010, 05:31 PM
Besides the anomaly 8 miles north, is there really a fanbase that does?

more to the point, the financial well-being of the club has a lot more to do with television, advertising than strict attendance. While the revenue sharing within baseball isn't nearly as large nor equitable as other leagues, money is still coming in even when attendance is down.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 05:36 PM
Peavy for Schierholtz. Awesome.

It might be one of the worst contracts in baseball, but you want to trade him for a fourth outfielder? Jesus ****.

TDog
06-10-2010, 05:59 PM
Peavy for Schierholtz. Awesome.

It might be one of the worst contracts in baseball, but you want to trade him for a fourth outfielder? Jesus ****.

If you've seen Shierholtz play, you would know he's better than a fourth outfielder. He would improve the White Sox both offensively and defensively. And I wouldn't expect the White Sox could get that much for Peavy if they dumped his contract. Before last season he was one of the hotest prosects in the Giants system, hitting way over .300 with power in two seasons at Fresno, not to mention speed, great defense and an accurate cannon for an arm. You would have been drooling over him.

But as I wrote, I wasn't proposing the deal. In fact, if the White Sox trade Peavy, I don't think they'll get that much.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-10-2010, 06:02 PM
I think people are being overly optimistic in hoping Konerko will accept a trade. Konerko isn't going to go to a place where he doesn't feel comfortable. He is in a better position in signing next year if he stays with the Sox and puts up great offensive numbers than if he goes to a contender and has difficulty adjusting as Rios did with the Sox last year. Konerko has seen Dye go from being a World Series MVP to a player no one wants for the money and role Dye believes he deserves.

That means that Konerko is probably going to turn down deals that would send him to the National League here he is unfamiliar with the pitchers. That isn't being selfish.

The bigger point is that Konerko two or three months would not bring back in trade what many people posting here expect that he would bring back in trade.

But, as I posted earlier, it is all speculation.

I've never contended that he would bring anything back. I was just curious why he would veto a trade now, when he said in the past he wouldn't. Your comments about Dye and possibly PK slumping for a new team are good ones. It makes sense that if he can keep his numbers up with the Sox, it would be beneficial for him to stay.

Frontman
06-10-2010, 06:03 PM
Four years of non competitive baseball with huge contracts isn't very appealing either.

My point is not to trade just to dump salary. Trade to make your team better and more competitive. Just to "rebuild" the farm system isn't going to make the team better nor will it make the team money.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 06:08 PM
If you've seen Shierholtz play, you would know he's better than a fourth outfielder. He would improve the White Sox both offensively and defensively. And I wouldn't expect the White Sox could get that much for Peavy if they dumped his contract. Before last season he was one of the hotest prosects in the Giants system, hitting way over .300 with power in two seasons at Fresno, not to mention speed, great defense and an accurate cannon for an arm. You would have been drooling over him.

But as I wrote, I wasn't proposing the deal. In fact, if the White Sox trade Peavy, I don't think they'll get that much.
Generally speaking, numerous guys can put up numbers like that in the PCL. He's got an awful BB/K ratio, and always has. He's cut his K rate, but he's still a fourth outfielder on a good team.

Would I have been drooling? No, certainly not.

And yes, I've seen the guy play. He's a guy. Nothing wrong with being a bench player in major league baseball.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 06:08 PM
My point is not to trade just to dump salary. Trade to make your team better and more competitive. Just to "rebuild" the farm system isn't going to make the team better nor will it make the team money.
Not an easy thing to do when you've got nothing of value to trade.

KMcMahon817
06-10-2010, 06:42 PM
I honestly don't believe Buehrle's contract would make it possible to trade him. He wanted a no-trade clause, and the financial terms, coupled with his disappointing performance, would make Peavy easier to trade. Pending free agents may go, but they are likely to bring little in return. The trade with the Giants in 1997 brought surprisingly little in return, considering the White Sox gave up two starters and their closer. Barcelo was supposed to be the future star in that deal.

I think people will be upset that players are traded for so little in return, especially considering who will take their place. Tyler Flowers is no Buster Posey, at the plate or behind it.

I went to see the White Sox play in Anaheim two days after trade with the Giants, the night after Scott Eyre made his major league debut, losing 9-1. I got to see Chris Clemons give up five in the second en route to losing in his major league debut. It is true that the White Sox had a slightly better record before the deal than after the deal, that Reinsdorf was most likely right that the team wasn't going to catch the Indians, but the rest of 1997 was painful. And 1998 and 1999 were painful seasons. The players that contributed to the success in 2000 were players the White Sox could have picked up from the Giants for a whole lot less, considering that Foulke and Howry were considered trade fodder. That trade didn't portend a bright future.

The best trading chip the White Sox now have, the one likely to bring back the best talent in return is Rios. They claimed him off waivers when his value was at its lowest. The White Sox effusively took him off the scrap heap and polished him up. He would be the anti-Swisher for the White Sox, someone who would bring back considerably more than the Sox gave up to acquire.

Say what you want, believe what you want. Rios isn't going anywhere. Sorry.

KMcMahon817
06-10-2010, 06:46 PM
I don't understand the attitude that Alexei Ramirez and Carlos Quentin should be penciled in as starters for years to come. I, for one, would like the Sox to look for an upgrade at shortshop. If the White Sox find another use for him, fine...but I would like to see a SS that can field the position AND hit all year long. This "slow start" BS from Alexei is ridiculous. How long to we have to wait for this guy to start swinging the bat...June 1? By that time we could be out of it....oh wait, we already are this year.

And, I am not convinced that 2008 wasn't just a fluke year for Quentin. He hasn't done much to prove otherwise. And, I know I am not the only one that thinks that about TCQ. Look for an upgrade in RF. His defense isn't good, either.

Please name to me 10 better SS in the league. You can't, because there are not 10 better. Alexei is a better than average SS that will be here for awhile still.

TDog
06-10-2010, 07:50 PM
Say what you want, believe what you want. Rios isn't going anywhere. Sorry.

I hope you're right. But if you're looking for the White Sox to cut salary and get quality young players and prospects to become a contender after the expiration of Rios' current contract, I don't see how you can be so confident the White Sox won't trade Rios.

Noneck
06-10-2010, 08:00 PM
I hope you're right. But if you're looking for the White Sox to cut salary and get quality young players and prospects to become a contender after the expiration of Rios' current contract, I don't see how you can be so confident the White Sox won't trade Rios.

2010 - 9.7m, 2011 - 12m, 2012 - 12m, 2013-12.5m, 2014 - 12.5m.

Do you think Rios is actually trade -able? Do you think he is dump-able?

I am not sure on either considering he was obtained because he wasn't trade- able only dump- able. That is a lot of money over many years.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 08:15 PM
2010 - 9.7m, 2011 - 12m, 2012 - 12m, 2013-12.5m, 2014 - 12.5m.

Do you think Rios is actually trade -able? Do you think he is dump-able?

I am not sure on either considering he was obtained because he wasn't trade- able only dump- able. That is a lot of money over many years.
And he's been one of the top 5 position players in baseball this season. If Rios is on the market, my guess is the White Sox can attain a haul.

Do I want to trade him? No, I'd keep him, even if the Sox are going full-rebuild. He's a superstar.

Noneck
06-10-2010, 08:22 PM
And he's been one of the top 5 position players in baseball this season. If Rios is on the market, my guess is the White Sox can attain a haul.

Do I want to trade him? No, I'd keep him, even if the Sox are going full-rebuild. He's a superstar.

I am not disputing you but it hasnt even been a half a season yet and last year around this time he was a salary dump.

I really have no idea, that is why I threw it out there.

Irishsox1
06-10-2010, 08:49 PM
I don't think they should give up just yet. The Sox are 26-33, the 2003 Marlins were 26-32. Too early to give up just yet.

tsoxman
06-10-2010, 08:52 PM
That 2 year wait to get back to the postseason?
Exactly. Most hear did not suffer through really awful times like between 1968-1970 or between 1986-1989.

Frontman
06-10-2010, 09:09 PM
Not an easy thing to do when you've got nothing of value to trade.

So the point of going white flag is what then? Just to dump money.

The one's screaming for Kenny to back the truck up are doing so thinking the team will get better. No; it won't. It means what little talent we got will be gone; and it means 2-5 years of pretty bad baseball unless they get lucky in some of their signings.

gosox41
06-10-2010, 09:32 PM
So the point of going white flag is what then? Just to dump money.

The one's screaming for Kenny to back the truck up are doing so thinking the team will get better. No; it won't. It means what little talent we got will be gone; and it means 2-5 years of pretty bad baseball unless they get lucky in some of their signings.


I don't know if they'll get better in the short run, but in the long run the will. We are currentl a bad veteran team now. Why not dump veterans and salary and try to get something in retun. We're a $100 million joke and the blame falls on these veterans for sucking

But trading some salary now, maybe getting a couple of possible top 10 picks (assuming Bell and Laumann could draft and develp talent) will give way to a brighter future.

Again, this is not the position I want to be in. But the players on this team have sucked. While others want to blame KW and Ozzie for being 7 games below .500, they should only get a small protion of the blame. You know who gets most of it? The players. It's not KW or Ozzie's fault that Buehrle, Floyd, and Peavy have all been beyond brutal this year. Maybe if they pitched better this team would have 4-5 more wins and only be 4 games out of first and we'd be talking about adding on.

So, I have no problem trading away most of htis garbage to get the rebuilding process going and overwith. KW has shown that he is unable to rebuild on the fly. What pieces are the Sox going to add with revenues going down due to this team being so lousy.


Bob

A. Cavatica
06-10-2010, 09:35 PM
I can't believe the interest in dumping players when THE FIRST THING THAT MUST BE DONE IS FIRING OZZIE AND WALKER.

If we don't do that, it doesn't matter who we trade or what we get in return.

Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2010, 09:47 PM
Kenny's MO is "rebuilding on the fly" or "reloading" and it's futile to expect anything different.

KW "rebuilt on the fly" or "reloaded" in 2004-2005, resulting in a World Series victory.

KW "rebuilt on the fly" or "reloaded" before the 2008 season, resulting in a division championship.

KW "rebuilt on the fly" in 2009-2010, and that largely has failed so far.

Two out of three is still pretty good. KW is not going to blow it all up, but he will make a few deals for mid-level prospects and use payroll savings to reload the roster, and hope for likely rebounds by currently underperforming players, especially Buehrle, Peavy and Floyd.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Kenny's MO is "rebuilding on the fly" or "reloading" and it's futile to expect anything different.

KW "rebuilt on the fly" or "reloaded" in 2004-2005, resulting in a World Series victory.

KW "rebuilt on the fly" or "reloaded" before the 2008 season, resulting in a division championship.

KW "rebuilt on the fly" in 2009-2010, and that largely has failed so far.

Two out of three is still pretty good. KW is not going to blow it all up, but he will make a few deals for mid-level prospects and use payroll savings to reload the roster, and hope for likely rebounds by currently underperforming players, especially Buehrle, Peavy and Floyd.
We were younger in 2008. That's a huge difference.

Brian26
06-10-2010, 10:16 PM
I don't think they should give up just yet. The Sox are 26-33, the 2003 Marlins were 26-32. Too early to give up just yet.

The problem is that we won't have Frisco and the Flubs to steamroll in the playoffs like Florida did. We might actually have to play an American League team with guts and some talent.

Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2010, 10:20 PM
We were younger in 2008. That's a huge difference.

Trading veterans like Paulie and AJ would make the Sox younger again.

But I'm not sure age has much to do with the Sox failures this year.

It's obvious the 2009-2010 "rebuild on the fly" project has failed, but its been in large measure due to a complete epic fail by so many players who otherwise have had excellent careers, but most specifically and acutely Buehrle and Peavy. It is ahistorical to predict those two would remain this bad in 2011, because neither of them is old and neither of them has been this bad (other than Buehrle's second half of 2006).

rainbow6
06-10-2010, 10:20 PM
Wouldn't a win tomorrow in Wrigley - with Peavey on the mound against a struggling Randy Wells - make it four out of five?

Can't win sixteen out twenty without winning the first four out of five.

Well, you could, but you get my point.

Just sayin'.

mantis1212
06-10-2010, 10:24 PM
Wouldn't a win tomorrow in Wrigley - with Peavey on the mound against a struggling Randy Wells - make it four out of five?

Can't win sixteen out twenty without winning the first four out of five.

Well, you could, but you get my point.

Just sayin'.

I like it.

I don't think they should give up just yet. The Sox are 26-33, the 2003 Marlins were 26-32. Too early to give up just yet.

I like it too.

Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2010, 10:38 PM
Here are some mileposts to consider.

If they fail at any of these mileposts, then it's time to blow it up. But succeeding at one should give them the right to strive toward the next one.

Win two of three at the Urinal.

Go 12-6 for the rest of June.

Get to .500 by the All Star Break.

Have a winning record on the road trip to MIN, SEA and OAK.

Win at least 3/5 at home against SEA and OAK from July 26-30.

If they reach all these mileposts while standing pat, KW needs to be a buyer on Saturday, July 31.

Failure at any milepost should trigger a sell-off.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 11:43 PM
We were younger in 2008. That's a huge difference.

The only significant piece expected back next year where age will play a difference in a negative sense is Buehrle.

Age should help Ramirez, Beckham, Quentin, Danks and Floyd provided they actually can be consistent producers on this level.. Pierre is no older than Pods was. Rios is in his prime, so it shouldn't hurt him.

AJ and PK are expected to be gone.

Thornton might be an issue, but Santos will be fine, Jenks should have several years left in the tank provided he hasn't lost it. Pena is in his prime (I think, didn't check).

If they can locate a 3B then Teahen can go back to being an everyman utility guy and LH bat off the bench.

Teams not as old as you make it out to be, the core of players you hope will produce are all in their prime for the most part or entering it soon...

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 11:46 PM
The only significant piece expected back next year where age will play a difference in a negative sense is Buehrle.

Age should help Ramirez, Beckham, Quentin, Danks and Floyd provided they actually can be consistent producers on this level.. Pierre is no older than Pods was. Rios is in his prime, so it shouldn't hurt him.

AJ and PK are expected to be gone.

Thornton might be an issue, but Santos will be fine, Jenks should have several years left in the tank provided he hasn't lost it. Pena is in his prime (I think, didn't check).

If they can locate a 3B then Teahen can go back to being an everyman utility guy and LH bat off the bench.

Teams not as old as you make it out to be, the core of players you hope will produce are all in their prime for the most part or entering it soon...
1. That is one hell of a mediocre core.
2. It's amazing people are willing to pay Teahen to be a utilityman but the meme around here was that "only organizations like the Yankees can afford to pay Swisher for his production."

Domeshot17
06-10-2010, 11:49 PM
I will still say the same thing I said in January, the root of the problem is relying on unreliable guys to carry the offense. We hinged our ENTIRE SEASON on Quentin (who has had an injury filled, mediocre career with 1 great stretch in it) and Beckham (who hadn't played a full season and has seemingly cracked under the pressure we put him under). If we would have just tried to acquire some real offensive talent to spread the load, things would look a lot better.

I would welcome Quentin and Beckham back next year, but you need ATLEAST 2 hitters better than both of them to really compete, and that is on top of Rios, not counting him.

Noneck
06-10-2010, 11:53 PM
1. That is one hell of a mediocre core.
2. It's amazing people are willing to pay Teahen to be a utilityman but the meme around here was that "only organizations like the Yankees can afford to pay Swisher for his production."

The Teahen situation is not by choice now but by necessity. Just like paying Linebrink to be a premier setup guy and use him in mop up.

voodoochile
06-11-2010, 12:05 AM
1. That is one hell of a mediocre core.
2. It's amazing people are willing to pay Teahen to be a utilityman but the meme around here was that "only organizations like the Yankees can afford to pay Swisher for his production."

I was suggesting Teahen as a utility guy because I know you hate him at 3B. It was a give to you.

Well that's a different issue. You talked about age. I mentioned that the guys they were expected to build around weren't actually that old. Add Peavy and Rios to that mix too and Santos and Jenks.

Now the question of IF they should be building around that group is different from the question is that group too old to add to on the fly.

If the answer is that group isn't good enough to build around then they truly should tear this team down to the nubs and offer it all up for prospects or better players because if that group of players isn't worth building around, the team won't be competitive for 5 years, IMO and there's no point in keeping anyone if that's the case.

voodoochile
06-11-2010, 12:08 AM
CG, I can't recall having seen you answer this question and I've looked around a bit.

Who of the present players would you keep to build around?

soxinem1
06-11-2010, 12:14 AM
It would seem that AJ, Jenks, Thornton, Putz, Pierre, Jones, Quentin, and Pena are all ripe for the picking, but Garcia might be the one who gets the most in return.

Freddy makes the least amount of $$$$ and would easilly be a smart pickup by any contender, all of which need starting pitching. And getting Linebrink tossed in the deal is an addition by subtraction, even if $$$$ has to be thrown in any deal involving him.

I could see Konerko staying all year, and if so it would be safe to say they offer him arbitration for 2011. The draft pick alone might make it worth the risk. LAD, for example, would easilly offer PK guaranteed years that he would not get here.

I don't see how most, if not virtually all of these players wear White Sox uniforms in 2011 anyway, so they might as well get dumped now.

Daver
06-11-2010, 12:24 AM
If the answer is that group isn't good enough to build around then they truly should tear this team down to the nubs and offer it all up for prospects or better players because if that group of players isn't worth building around, the team won't be competitive for 5 years, IMO and there's no point in keeping anyone if that's the case.

The White Sox should not be trading for prospects unless they are MLB ready prospects, something that isn't likely with the players they are going to be looking to deal.

Craig Grebeck
06-11-2010, 12:26 AM
CG, I can't recall having seen you answer this question and I've looked around a bit.

Who of the present players would you keep to build around?
Beckham and Rios, and perhaps Ramirez. Quentin has to be non-tendered if he shows no signs of life -- sure, he's got ability that could justify his being around, but so do lots of guys in MLB.

I keep Ramirez because his contract is not prohibitive and he has the ability to play solid defense up the middle and could have inflated value on the trade market if he puts up a consistent campaign. He's older, though, and that's why I've got some trepidation.

Rios: I just like the guy, and can see him developing into a franchise player. This first half of the season seems much closer to his true ability than the three years preceding. He looks graceful in CF, and his swing is near perfect.

Beckham needs work, but he too can be a franchise guy. He plays okay defense at a premium position, and has the skillset to lead this organization back to prominence.

Why rebuild? Well, I just don't see much in this first group of free agents, and there's not enough depth in the organization to pull off a trade or even justify one. What I could see is a move resembling the Garza for Young (I know there were other parts, but that was the meat) deal that went down a few years ago, except involving Danks or Floyd. I'd rather it involve the former, given his contract status.

I'm not sure who they'd target, maybe someone like Ian Stewart or even Russell Martin, though I think the latter could be had for less.

Could this team compete next season? Yes, with an improved defense and offense. I'm just not sure the organization's capable. What if Konerko and A.J. walk, Crawford is signed, and Martin is acquired? Maybe. I'm not optimistic.

cws05champ
06-11-2010, 12:49 AM
Beckham and Rios, and perhaps Ramirez. Quentin has to be non-tendered if he shows no signs of life -- sure, he's got ability that could justify his being around, but so do lots of guys in MLB.



What? He is still under arbitration control and under his current rate would not get a huge bump in salary. You just don't give away a guy with his talent. If you say trade him, that's one thing. But to just non-tender...crazy.

Tragg
06-11-2010, 01:22 AM
Beckham and Rios, and perhaps Ramirez. Quentin has to be non-tendered if he shows no signs of life -- sure, he's got ability that could justify his being around, but so do lots of guys in MLB.

That doesn't make any sense...Quentin is still cheap.

The team needs an athletic RF (as many of us begged for in the offseason) and a 3B....or maybe a 2b if you move Beckham back, or maybe a SS, if you move both Beckham and Ramirez.
Getting two really good players at those 2 positions would help this team a lot. As I've said a million times, I'd trade our bullpen to try ot attain it.

The Sox should be bossing this division like the Angels boss the West.

voodoochile
06-11-2010, 02:13 AM
Beckham and Rios, and perhaps Ramirez. Quentin has to be non-tendered if he shows no signs of life -- sure, he's got ability that could justify his being around, but so do lots of guys in MLB.

I keep Ramirez because his contract is not prohibitive and he has the ability to play solid defense up the middle and could have inflated value on the trade market if he puts up a consistent campaign. He's older, though, and that's why I've got some trepidation.

Rios: I just like the guy, and can see him developing into a franchise player. This first half of the season seems much closer to his true ability than the three years preceding. He looks graceful in CF, and his swing is near perfect.

Beckham needs work, but he too can be a franchise guy. He plays okay defense at a premium position, and has the skillset to lead this organization back to prominence.

Why rebuild? Well, I just don't see much in this first group of free agents, and there's not enough depth in the organization to pull off a trade or even justify one. What I could see is a move resembling the Garza for Young (I know there were other parts, but that was the meat) deal that went down a few years ago, except involving Danks or Floyd. I'd rather it involve the former, given his contract status.

I'm not sure who they'd target, maybe someone like Ian Stewart or even Russell Martin, though I think the latter could be had for less.

Could this team compete next season? Yes, with an improved defense and offense. I'm just not sure the organization's capable. What if Konerko and A.J. walk, Crawford is signed, and Martin is acquired? Maybe. I'm not optimistic.

You didn't mention pitching. Are there any pitchers you keep?

Again, if it it's this big of a rebuilding project, they should trade the guys you want to keep too, because it'll be 4 years before this team sniffs the playoffs again, IMO.

palehozenychicty
06-11-2010, 04:43 AM
That's not the point, half the folks around here are bemoaning blowing this expensive, crappy team up because "it will be a painful 3-5 years for the Sox" nonsense.

All we know right now is the Sox, as assembled, suck. Start ripping them apart and see what happens.

FWIW, when the Sox imploded their team in 1997, Durham was the only proven commodity you mentioned, who had been in the Majors since 1995 and was establishing himself as a very solid young infielder. Maggs was not a highly touted prospect until he blossomed into an excellent hitter at Nashville in 1997. El Caballo was in A-ball. Mark Buehrle, for ****'s sake, didn't even get Drafted until the 38th Round in 1998.

I can't guarantee the Sox will make a quick turnaround. But I know if they sit on their hands, it'll just be more of the same.

Thank you. I think a lot of people are mostly satisfied if the team is competitive and sneaks a division title win. I'm tired of that mentality. They can do better than that.

This team isn't good enough right now to do anything. They have a lot of players, especially position ones, who are inconsistent and fragile. Let's be real here.

Craig Grebeck
06-11-2010, 09:32 AM
That doesn't make any sense...Quentin is still cheap.

The team needs an athletic RF (as many of us begged for in the offseason) and a 3B....or maybe a 2b if you move Beckham back, or maybe a SS, if you move both Beckham and Ramirez.
Getting two really good players at those 2 positions would help this team a lot. As I've said a million times, I'd trade our bullpen to try ot attain it.

The Sox should be bossing this division like the Angels boss the West.
Carlos Quentin has been arguably the worst position player in the AL this season.

Mark Teahen just might qualify as an athletic RF. He plays okay defense there, and moving him to RF and acquiring a solid 3B would do wonders.

Hitmen77
06-11-2010, 11:25 AM
Carlos Quentin has been arguably the worst position player in the AL this season.

Mark Teahen just might qualify as an athletic RF. He plays okay defense there, and moving him to RF and acquiring a solid 3B would do wonders.

Yes, this season, but are you saying that you've given up on his ability as a MLB player and we should just cut him loose? IIRC you were one of the biggest supporters of his talent when we acquired him. He's not going to make that much $$ through arbitration next year, but yet you want to give up on him already?

Is that what the White Sox should be doing? Cutting talented players loose when they're still relatively cheap and when they still have a chance to regain some of their value (either to the team or as trade value)?

Am I confident that Carlos will return to MVP-level form again? Not really, but I hope the Sox don't just non-tender him this year.

voodoochile
06-11-2010, 01:15 PM
Yes, this season, but are you saying that you've given up on his ability as a MLB player and we should just cut him loose? IIRC you were one of the biggest supporters of his talent when we acquired him. He's not going to make that much $$ through arbitration next year, but yet you want to give up on him already?

Is that what the White Sox should be doing? Cutting talented players loose when they're still relatively cheap and when they still have a chance to regain some of their value (either to the team or as trade value)?

Am I confident that Carlos will return to MVP-level form again? Not really, but I hope the Sox don't just non-tender him this year.

His BABIP this year is .207. Last year it was .221. I don't know how to fix that problem. I think his pitch recognition needs a lot of work. Though he still, has a solid OBP based on his batting average. He does seem to hit a fair amount of baseballs well that end up in gloves. I can think of two cases just in the last two days.

Maybe tell him to stop working with the machine so much and have him face more live pitching in practice even if it means hiring someone just to throw to him until he figures out which pitches he should be swinging at. The guy can spend time throwing to Beckham too.

Craig Grebeck
06-11-2010, 01:15 PM
Yes, this season, but are you saying that you've given up on his ability as a MLB player and we should just cut him loose? IIRC you were one of the biggest supporters of his talent when we acquired him. He's not going to make that much $$ through arbitration next year, but yet you want to give up on him already?

Is that what the White Sox should be doing? Cutting talented players loose when they're still relatively cheap and when they still have a chance to regain some of their value (either to the team or as trade value)?

Am I confident that Carlos will return to MVP-level form again? Not really, but I hope the Sox don't just non-tender him this year.
If he shows nothing, I would cut him loose. He's a negative defensively and struggling offensively. It's a tough decision, but I would do it.

Do I see the other side? Certainly. I can see an argument both ways.

khan
06-11-2010, 02:51 PM
If he shows nothing, I would cut him loose. He's a negative defensively and struggling offensively. It's a tough decision, but I would do it.

Do I see the other side? Certainly. I can see an argument both ways.
+1

I could give a rip about his defense, because it is CLEAR that he is nothing more than a DH-only type. I mean, for ****'s sake, he moves as poorly at 27 years old as JD did at 35. [I recognize that this is a bad metric for defense, BUT] According to wikipedia, he had the worst fielding% among all MLB LFs in 2008, which is a bad thing.

He's GOT TO hit if he wants to stay, IMO. Get the ****ing OPS above .850. His $3.2M isn't a lot of money, but for the ****ty defense and [at times] nonexistent offense, it IS a lot of money. Moreover, since he'll get the [virtually] automatic raise in arbitration, he might be above $5M more for 2011.

Thus, Quentin needs to get his head and his ass wired together, and start hitting the snot out of the ball, and with regularity.

Tragg
06-11-2010, 08:55 PM
+1


Thus, Quentin needs to get his head and his ass wired together, and start hitting the snot out of the ball, and with regularity.
I wish he would too. But on a team starved for hitters, it's ridiculous to dump him.
He carried this team on his back in 08....he had an injury year in 09....and it's been slow this year. But at his salary and his ability, no way do you non-tender him.
He's worth the risk...he has upside.
Defensively, RF is bad, but we've had worse in LF...in fact, he's probably the best LF we've had this decade until this year.

TomBradley72
06-13-2010, 01:03 PM
That doesn't make any sense...Quentin is still cheap.

The team needs an athletic RF (as many of us begged for in the offseason) and a 3B....or maybe a 2b if you move Beckham back, or maybe a SS, if you move both Beckham and Ramirez.
Getting two really good players at those 2 positions would help this team a lot. As I've said a million times, I'd trade our bullpen to try ot attain it.

The Sox should be bossing this division like the Angels boss the West.

I really agree with your assessment....I could see the logic of Teahen for 1 season when you gave up nothing for him...I don't understand the logic of Carlos "Bump Bailey" Quentin in RF...he's adequate for a LF...but not a RF.

The major sign of a "white flag" mentality is the lack of effort to find a true 3rd baseman while we've watched Teahen be a complete butcher at 3rd and now 6 weeks of Vizquel/Nix, and nothing in farm system other than Morel who's overmatched right now at AAA.

Unfortunate...everyone thinks the Twins are a lock....but they've been a .500 team over the last month...alot can happen over 3.5+ months...if we get to .500 within the next few weeks, I think we have a chance...but not with the 3rd base situation we've had since Crede left. I'd like to see a "Herbert Perry" type pick up to plug the hole at 3rd.

DickAllen72
06-13-2010, 01:27 PM
I think we have a chance...but not with the 3rd base situation we've had since Crede left. I'd like to see a "Herbert Perry" type pick up to plug the hole at 3rd.
I'd love to see Juan Uribe back at 3B for the Sox. I doubt the Giants would give him up though.

PhillipsBubba
06-13-2010, 01:37 PM
I'd love to see Juan Uribe back at 3B for the Sox. I doubt the Giants would give him up though.

Hell, let's bring back Bubba Phillips!

Oops...he gone:(:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/bubba_phillips_autograph.jpg

TomBradley72
06-13-2010, 01:38 PM
I'd love to see Juan Uribe back at 3B for the Sox. I doubt the Giants would give him up though.

I'd even take Wes Helms or someone like that if we didn't have to give up much...give me a solid defensive 3rd baseman who can hit .260 and pick up some RBI's here and there and I'd be happy. There has to be a non-contender who has a 3rd baseman who can help us.

voodoochile
06-13-2010, 02:12 PM
I'd even take Wes Helms or someone like that if we didn't have to give up much...give me a solid defensive 3rd baseman who can hit .260 and pick up some RBI's here and there and I'd be happy. There has to be a non-contender who has a 3rd baseman who can help us.

Well he's down to .256 but...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=2149

Domeshot17
06-13-2010, 02:58 PM
I am sorry but if we are seriously considering filling holes to try and make a run, it can't be a "herbert perry type" or a "260 hitter who can pick up some RBIs". The Sox need to pick up a middle of the order bat. They needed it in December and they still need it in June. Konero and Rios are fine, but you need another. Quentin has proven he can't be counted on, Beckham is not going to be Evan Longoria good, its time we face reality and fix the problem. We can either Pick up a solid 3b, move Teahen to RF and DH Quentin, or pick up an OF leave Mark at 3rd and Quentin to DH. You also have to seriously consider trying and picking up a middle IF and moving Gordon back to AAA.

Getting rid of the home run was a terrible concept from day 1. We are 6th in homers and 21st in RBI. We need to pick up 2 hitters, one guy who can hit .300 an bat 2nd, and another who can hit in the 3-5 group and drive in runs.

Lillian
06-13-2010, 03:28 PM
I hate to sound like a "broken record", but all we really need is one potent, middle of the order, left handed bat. With that one addition, and everyone else playing like they could reasonably be expected to play, this team would be pretty good.

It might be too late to recover for this year, but I just don't think that there are that many holes to fill, if everyone would simply play like they've proven they can.

october23sp
06-13-2010, 03:36 PM
I hate to sound like a "broken record", but all we really need is one potent, middle of the order, left handed bat. With that one addition, and everyone else playing like they could reasonably be expected to play, this team would be pretty good.

It might be too late to recover for this year, but I just don't think that there are that many holes to fill, if everyone would simply play like they've proven they can.

I have to agree there, especially if Beckham would step it up a little, a bat in the middle of the lineup would make us pretty good, Kotsay is not the answer, but I'm sure those words have been stated over a thousand times on WSI and Ozzie is the only person who disagrees.

Like I said in the post game, this last run has given me hope, if we sweep the Cubs and go down 3 games we'll be in good shape. But they might just break my heart anyways.

konerko 14
06-13-2010, 03:38 PM
The Sox should offer the Indians Carlos Quentin, Scott Linebrink and maybe a prospect for Shin Soo Choo, a good left handed bat that can drive in runs.

TomBradley72
06-13-2010, 03:40 PM
I am sorry but if we are seriously considering filling holes to try and make a run, it can't be a "herbert perry type" or a "260 hitter who can pick up some RBIs". The Sox need to pick up a middle of the order bat. They needed it in December and they still need it in June. Konero and Rios are fine, but you need another. Quentin has proven he can't be counted on, Beckham is not going to be Evan Longoria good, its time we face reality and fix the problem. We can either Pick up a solid 3b, move Teahen to RF and DH Quentin, or pick up an OF leave Mark at 3rd and Quentin to DH. You also have to seriously consider trying and picking up a middle IF and moving Gordon back to AAA.

Getting rid of the home run was a terrible concept from day 1. We are 6th in homers and 21st in RBI. We need to pick up 2 hitters, one guy who can hit .300 an bat 2nd, and another who can hit in the 3-5 group and drive in runs.

I can't disagree with your assessment...but based on what we have to offer as trade bait (which is pretty minimal)...I think the reality is that IF KW decides to add vs. subtract...the best we can do is what I proposed.

I don't see your proposal (adding a real run producer and a #2 who can hit .300) as remotely realistic based on what we have to offer.

I'd settle for a defensive upgrade at 3rd...Teahen's defense alone has cost us 3-4 games...we win those games and we're a .500 team today, virtually tied for 2nd place.

TomBradley72
06-13-2010, 03:44 PM
The Sox should offer the Indians Carlos Quentin, Scott Linebrink and maybe a prospect for Shin Soo Choo, a good left handed bat that can drive in runs.

Teal?

Why the hell would the Indians even consider that trade? No one (especially a non contender) will even want Linebrink at the major league minimum, much less the contract KW offered him.

As far a prospects go, after Dan Hudson, we have almost nothing to offer (Flowers and Danks are hitting in the .220's at AAA, Morel < .100 at AAA, Viciedo is hitting OK, but can't draw walks or play the field (3 errors in 1 game this week) at the AAA level, and absolutely nothing to offer at AA.

Jpgr91
06-13-2010, 03:47 PM
Carlos Quentin has been arguably the worst position player in the AL this season.

Mark Teahen just might qualify as an athletic RF. He plays okay defense there, and moving him to RF and acquiring a solid 3B would do wonders.

Quentin is not even the worst position player on this team, let alone in the AL.

His BABIP this year is .207. Last year it was .221. I don't know how to fix that problem. I think his pitch recognition needs a lot of work. Though he still, has a solid OBP based on his batting average. He does seem to hit a fair amount of baseballs well that end up in gloves. I can think of two cases just in the last two days.

Maybe tell him to stop working with the machine so much and have him face more live pitching in practice even if it means hiring someone just to throw to him until he figures out which pitches he should be swinging at. The guy can spend time throwing to Beckham too.

It could very well be pitch recognition, but it could also be the mechanics in his swing. The numbers indicate not only is he not making a lot of contact, but when he does make contact he is not able to put much behind his swings. This year is LD% is 14.2% and his FB% is 50%. By comparison, in 2008 his LD% was 15.2% and his FB% was 43.2%. His 2008 BABIP was .278. Either way, he is not trending very well over the last 500+ PA's.

Hitmen77
06-13-2010, 04:28 PM
I hate to sound like a "broken record", but all we really need is one potent, middle of the order, left handed bat. With that one addition, and everyone else playing like they could reasonably be expected to play, this team would be pretty good.

It might be too late to recover for this year, but I just don't think that there are that many holes to fill, if everyone would simply play like they've proven they can.

The problem is that Ozzie said we didn't need another bat. Kotsay and Jones were good enough for DH.

It's one thing for the pitchers to underperform, at least they have the talent to rebound. The problem is that, when our pitching struggled, Kenny and Ozzie saw to it that our offense wasn't good enough even on paper to keep us afloat.

If Peavy and Buehrle can indeed turn things around (and not just against NL teams), we're still left with a huge hole in the middle of our lineup. Quentin and Beckham were big risks for underperforming this year (Beckham really cooled off once MLB pitchers figured him out, Quentin was hitting poorly even after he returned from his injuries), but the Sox decided to put the burden on them when they left the DH position to non-starters.

Ozzie's rotating DH idea was so ridiculous that Ozzie apologists aren't fooling anyone by defending him anymore. Of course, Ozzie has more important things to worry about than his sadly mistaken idea - like how high the Sox should have drafted his son.

I know it's exciting when the team that doesn't need a DH goes into NL parks and shows everyone that it can win without a DH. Too bad that ride against weaker competition only lasts for a couple of weeks in June.

Tragg
06-13-2010, 05:22 PM
I would still trade any piece of our bullpen if a team offers more than its worth. We can bring up any of several AAA pitchers, like Hudson, who should be able to handle the job.

Craig Grebeck
06-14-2010, 12:42 AM
Quentin is not even the worst position player on this team, let alone in the AL.

This season, offensively and defensively, he has been the worst on the team.

kaufsox
06-14-2010, 03:38 PM
The Sox should offer the Indians Carlos Quentin, Scott Linebrink and maybe a prospect for Shin Soo Choo, a good left handed bat that can drive in runs.

And the Indians GM should be fired if he accepted that deal

MetroPD
06-14-2010, 06:43 PM
This season, offensively and defensively, he has been the worst on the team.
I have to agree, the guy has been absolutely atrocious. There are some national pitchers who can hit better than him. We need to shop him immediately.

russ99
06-14-2010, 06:53 PM
The problem is that Ozzie said we didn't need another bat. Kotsay and Jones were good enough for DH.

It's one thing for the pitchers to underperform, at least they have the talent to rebound. The problem is that, when our pitching struggled, Kenny and Ozzie saw to it that our offense wasn't good enough even on paper to keep us afloat.

If Peavy and Buehrle can indeed turn things around (and not just against NL teams), we're still left with a huge hole in the middle of our lineup. Quentin and Beckham were big risks for underperforming this year (Beckham really cooled off once MLB pitchers figured him out, Quentin was hitting poorly even after he returned from his injuries), but the Sox decided to put the burden on them when they left the DH position to non-starters.

Ozzie's rotating DH idea was so ridiculous that Ozzie apologists aren't fooling anyone by defending him anymore. Of course, Ozzie has more important things to worry about than his sadly mistaken idea - like how high the Sox should have drafted his son.

I know it's exciting when the team that doesn't need a DH goes into NL parks and shows everyone that it can win without a DH. Too bad that ride against weaker competition only lasts for a couple of weeks in June.

We're 6th in the AL in homers, and have the #3 home run hitter in the league.

Had Quentin, Jones, Kotsay, Pierzynski, Beckham, Ramirez etc. hit even at an average level, the reality is that Ozzie wouldn't have been too far off the mark. Absolutely, we could have used another hitter, but Kenny's hands were tied on Matsui and Damon. Would guys like Thome, Cust and Blalock really made a difference? Because those are the guys we could afford.

You should realize that his "sadly mistaken idea" has a pre-requisite that players actually hit the ball.

So, please, enough of this garbage. The entire team hasn't played to its potential, it's not some harebrained scheme by Ozzie that has doomed this team.

We obviously need to dump and reload around Rios, the one player who's not only lived up to but exceeded expectations.

Craig Grebeck
06-14-2010, 06:58 PM
We're 6th in the AL in homers, and have the #3 home run hitter in the league.

Had Quentin, Jones, Kotsay, Pierzynski, Beckham, Ramirez etc. hit even at an average level, the reality is that Ozzie wouldn't have been too far off the mark. Absolutely, we could have used another hitter, but Kenny's hands were tied on Matsui and Damon. Would guys like Thome, Cust and Blalock really made a difference? Because those are the guys we could afford.

You should realize that his "sadly mistaken idea" has a pre-requisite that players actually hit the ball.

So, please, enough of this garbage. The entire team hasn't played to its potential, it's not some harebrained scheme by Ozzie that has doomed this team.

We obviously need to dump and reload around Rios, the one player who's not only lived up to but exceeded expectations.
I'd say Ozzie's hare-brained "DH? **** that!" scheme has hurt this team.

mcsoxfan
06-14-2010, 11:35 PM
He says getting rid of free-agents-to-be and other inflated contracts. I guess that could be interpreted as Rios or Peavy, but honestly, I don't think those are the guys that are going to be traded. Those are guys that will be kept as centerpieces to "retool" around, whatever that involves.

I say keep Rios and Peavy and get rid of Williams and Guillen. It's hard to imagine the fans on this site really believe the same people responsible for this mess can now be trusted to rebuild it. And if by some miracle they got it right next time, it begs the question what flawed thinking was in effect when they thought this slop could really compete in the first place. Either way, not good.

Brian26
06-14-2010, 11:39 PM
The Sox should offer the Indians Carlos Quentin, Scott Linebrink and maybe a prospect for Shin Soo Choo, a good left handed bat that can drive in runs.

An inter-division trade that benefits us approximately 100% and gets rid of dead-weight salary? Sounds fair.

Hitmen77
06-15-2010, 02:33 PM
We're 6th in the AL in homers, and have the #3 home run hitter in the league.

Had Quentin, Jones, Kotsay, Pierzynski, Beckham, Ramirez etc. hit even at an average level, the reality is that Ozzie wouldn't have been too far off the mark. Absolutely, we could have used another hitter, but Kenny's hands were tied on Matsui and Damon. Would guys like Thome, Cust and Blalock really made a difference? Because those are the guys we could afford.

You should realize that his "sadly mistaken idea" has a pre-requisite that players actually hit the ball.

So, please, enough of this garbage. The entire team hasn't played to its potential, it's not some harebrained scheme by Ozzie that has doomed this team.

We obviously need to dump and reload around Rios, the one player who's not only lived up to but exceeded expectations.

Okay, if you say so. :lol: I think you're doing a great job of convincing yourself that Ozzie's "no DH" idea wasn't a terrible one.

FielderJones
06-15-2010, 02:39 PM
Okay, if you say so. :lol: I think you're doing a great job of convincing yourself that Ozzie's "no DH" idea wasn't a terrible one.

It wasn't. Unfortunately, a bunch of players had a "hit below .200" idea for the first two and a half months of the season. And a bunch of pitchers had a "ERA above 5.00" idea for the first two and a half months of the season.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2010, 04:36 PM
It wasn't. Unfortunately, a bunch of players had a "hit below .200" idea for the first two and a half months of the season. And a bunch of pitchers had a "ERA above 5.00" idea for the first two and a half months of the season.
Because a lot of them aren't good hitters and the pitchers had a bad defense behind them. This isn't hard.

KMcMahon817
06-15-2010, 05:20 PM
Because a lot of them aren't good hitters and the pitchers had a bad defense behind them. This isn't hard.


So Peavy, Floyd, and Mark's struggles are all due to the defense? :rolling:

TheOldRoman
06-15-2010, 05:23 PM
So Peavy, Floyd, and Mark's struggles are all due to the defense? :rolling:Yes, and Quentin's 2008 and Beckham's rookie year are both flukes. The Sox should have expected them to hit their weights when putting this team together.

quadcitiesfan
06-16-2010, 06:25 PM
Can Quentin go down to try and find his stroke, or is he out of minor league options?