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Brian26
06-08-2010, 10:20 PM
Tigers 7
Sox 2

soltrain21
06-08-2010, 10:22 PM
Well, at least our manager is pissed at our GM for not picking his son high enough.

White Sox, White Sox. GO GO White Sox!

SoxSpeed22
06-08-2010, 10:22 PM
Congrats Hawk. Too bad the 7th inning had to happen. Floyd looked his best so far this season. His curveball finally decided to curve.

WhiteSox1989
06-08-2010, 10:23 PM
Floyd pitched well from the couple innings I watched.

PhillipsBubba
06-08-2010, 10:23 PM
Let the trades commence!

sox1970
06-08-2010, 10:24 PM
4-20 following a win.

A. Cavatica
06-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Matt Thornton doing his best to remain a White Sox tonight...

sox1970
06-08-2010, 10:28 PM
Matt Thornton doing his best to remain a White Sox tonight...

I'd send down Williams, and call up Threets. And then shut down Matt until Saturday.

Nelfox02
06-08-2010, 10:31 PM
what a mess

my embargo of white sox baseball which began after the crapfest on saturday night spared me from having to see this----but all of the sudden I saw the score read 7-2 on the crawl during he celtics/lakers game.....dont even want to know what happened does it even matter?

I just want to know what the plan is, what is this organization going to do to ge back to respectability

are we going to have to sit through 2, 3 more seasons of losing baseball?!? shudder

Woofer
06-08-2010, 10:31 PM
Fire or trade somebody. Or do both. It can't be much worse.

sox1970
06-08-2010, 10:34 PM
what a mess

my embargo of white sox baseball which began after the crapfest on saturday night spared me from having to see this----but all of the sudden I saw the score read 7-2 on the crawl during he celtics/lakers game.....dont even want to know what happened does it even matter?

I just want to know what the plan is, what is this organization going to do to ge back to respectability

are we going to have to sit through 2, 3 more seasons of losing baseball?!? shudder

I can live with that if I know they're heading in the right direction. Watching a team of mismatched veterans is absolutely brutal to watch. Nothing worse in baseball.

mcsoxfan
06-08-2010, 10:36 PM
Fire or trade somebody. Or do both. It can't be much worse.

We need new ownership. This is as good as it's gets with Reinsdorf.
He better have something up his sleeve to sign James and Bosh or there will be a revolt at UC, too.

It's not even summer yet and baseball season is over.

GoGoCrede
06-08-2010, 10:36 PM
Left in the 7th.

I have seen quite enough. Been in denial for a long time now, but it's time to make big changes. My fork is firmly stuck in.

The one time Gavin actually doesn't suck, he's let down. Too bad, he was battling out there. Matt had a bad night.

My friend who always goes to games with me has an attendance record of 1-8. Bummer.

Baron
06-08-2010, 10:39 PM
Left in the 7th.

I have seen quite enough. Been in denial for a long time now, but it's time to make big changes. My fork is firmly stuck in.

The one time Gavin actually doesn't suck, he's let down. Too bad, he was battling out there. Matt had a bad night.

My friend who always goes to games with me has an attendance record of 1-8. Bummer.

Matt needs some rest...the guys arm is going to fall off

JB98
06-08-2010, 10:41 PM
I can live with that if I know they're heading in the right direction. Watching a team of mismatched veterans is absolutely brutal to watch. Nothing worse in baseball.

Agreed. It's never realistic for fans to demand championships every year. Just not feasible. But one thing fans should demand every year is a reason for hope, whether that's hope for the present or hope for the future.

Right now, this organization is providing no hope whatsoever to its fan base. Sox fans will respond by presenting this regime with a sea of empty green seats.

GoGoCrede
06-08-2010, 10:41 PM
Matt needs some rest...the guys arm is going to fall off

Yep. Same goes for Pena. I wouldn't be surprised if their arms fall off by the end of this month.

Nelfox02
06-08-2010, 10:43 PM
I can live with that if I know they're heading in the right direction. Watching a team of mismatched veterans is absolutely brutal to watch. Nothing worse in baseball.


I have lost faith in this organizations ability to "move in the right direction" Other than the off season we had in 2005 post WS Win, I have not understood what this organization is trying to accomplish with how they allocate thier money, make trades, etc

I posted about this in the "blow it up thread" what is our identity? who are the Sox? what is the plan? and I am not just talking about the 2010 season, but what is our plan for how we intend to field quality baseball product for the next 3-5 years? someone pointed out that the "plan" for 2010 was to invest in pitching and hope that the "offense would be just good enough" to support it.......fine I wont fault KW or JR for the pitching, NO ONE saw our starting staff being this awful....but how can you build your team around pitching, and yet surround it with such terrible defense? Want to make a great pitching staff mortal in a hurry? play consistent bad D behind them

We are by far and away the sorriest major franchise in this town now that Hawks have righted their ship in a big way. It is not even a close race at the back end, the sox are firmly the most pathetic organization in this town.......it crushes me to say it, but we are

Baron
06-08-2010, 10:43 PM
Yep. Same goes for Pena. I wouldn't be surprised if their arms fall off by the end of this month.

Is there really anyone decent besides Hudson that we could call up?

ilsox7
06-08-2010, 10:44 PM
Just got back from the game.

This team is a ****ing disaster.

sox1970
06-08-2010, 10:45 PM
Is there really anyone decent besides Hudson that we could call up?

Carlos Torres. He's having a nice season again.

Hegewisch
06-08-2010, 10:45 PM
Playing the Tigers I sort of figured it would turn out this way.:(:
However, I had hope when the Sox led 2-0.:scratch:

Nelfox02
06-08-2010, 10:47 PM
Sox fans will respond by presenting this regime with a sea of empty green seats.



I fear that they will respond to us by acquiring zero good talent from the FA market along with continued lack of commitment to the farm.....

Huisj
06-08-2010, 10:48 PM
I still can't understand how so many players on this team are this bad. How is Pierre so bad? How is Quentin so bad? How is Pierzynski so bad? How is Jones so bad after a hot start? How is Beckham so bad? How is Ramirez so bad? How is Buerhrle so bad? How is Floyd so bad? (ok, he was fine tonight but has been terrible). How is Peavy so bad? How is Jenks so bad? How is Linebrink so bad?

I get why guys like Kotsay and Vizquel are bad. They are old and shouldn't be expected to be decent. I get why guys like Nix and Williams and Teahen aren't good...because they just aren't that good.

But why is half this team playing so unbelievable below what seemed like their normal ability levels prior to this year? It ridiculous. This team has exactly TWO people with batting averages over .260! Half of their 10 most played hitters are hitting below .220! Their top four starters are a combined 13-21 with a 5.35 ERA!

The performance of this team is so perplexing. How do that many guys play that bad? Coaching? Mindset? Stupidity? Clubhouse problems? Were they all playing over their heads for the years leading up to this? Is this payback from the baseball gods for the magic of 2005? Did some of these guys suddenly get old and washed up prematurely? Are they hurt? What the heck is wrong with this stinking team?

GoGoCrede
06-08-2010, 10:49 PM
Agreed. It's never realistic for fans to demand championships every year. Just not feasible. But one thing fans should demand every year is a reason for hope, whether that's hope for the present or hope for the future.

Right now, this organization is providing no hope whatsoever to its fan base. Sox fans will respond by presenting this regime with a sea of empty green seats.

You're on the mark. I'm an optimist almost to a fault when it comes to this team. I still had hope last September that we'd make a run for the division. Now? Ugh. I'll still watch, of course, but aside from a few series here and there, not too much to look forward to. Maybe September call-ups will be interesting.

Baron
06-08-2010, 10:52 PM
Carlos Torres. He's having a nice season again.

I just cant stand watching Linestink and Williams blow it every game

VMSNS
06-08-2010, 10:55 PM
Oh, for the love of all things that are holy...

Blow. It. Up. Now.

I can't take this **** anymore.

Tragg
06-08-2010, 10:55 PM
Another stellar night for Ozzie's dream team.

The worst thing is that the value of our top trading chit, Thornton, fell tonight. Priority number 1 must be maximizing/protecting the value of these stiffs.

GoGoCrede
06-08-2010, 10:56 PM
Another stellar night for Ozzie's dream team.

The worst thing is that the value of our top trading chit, Thornton, fell tonight. Priority number 1 must be maximizing/protecting the value of these stiffs.

Eh, I'm not worried about him. He's been good for us this year, just had a bad night (although if the issue is that he's been overworked, not just having an off night, then I agree he should be rested).

Tragg
06-08-2010, 11:05 PM
Eh, I'm not worried about him. He's been good for us this year, just had a bad night (although if the issue is that he's been overworked, not just having an off night, then I agree he should be rested).
I care about one thing: his trade value...,....need to keep those statistics nice and clean. WHIPs below 1 are saleable.

Boondock Saint
06-08-2010, 11:08 PM
We need new ownership. This is as good as it's gets with Reinsdorf.
He better have something up his sleeve to sign James and Bosh or there will be a revolt at UC, too.

It's not even summer yet and baseball season is over.

It's nice to see you haven't stopped beating that drum. It's almost the only thing you ever say.

soltrain21
06-08-2010, 11:09 PM
Oh, for the love of all things that are holy...

Blow. It. Up. Now.

I can't take this **** anymore.

That's how I feel. I don't even want to see these ****ing clowns anymore.

LoveYourSuit
06-08-2010, 11:15 PM
Thornton is hurt. His WHIP since that saturday outing in KC where he closed the game has not been good. I believe the next day fluids were drained from his elbow, or something like that.


That's a scarry thing.

Shut the guy down, unless you plan to trade him.


This is the most dead weight I have seen in a Sox team in a long long time. I think because of payroll, it makes things even worse compared to the late 80s.

slavko
06-08-2010, 11:15 PM
Matt needs some rest...the guys arm is going to fall off

Keep riding your best horse as long as you're in it.

Agreed. It's never realistic for fans to demand championships every year. Just not feasible. But one thing fans should demand every year is a reason for hope, whether that's hope for the present or hope for the future.

Right now, this organization is providing no hope whatsoever to its fan base. Sox fans will respond by presenting this regime with a sea of empty green seats.

Makes me long for the old days with a sea of empty blue seats.

You're on the mark. I'm an optimist almost to a fault when it comes to this team. I still had hope last September that we'd make a run for the division. Now? Ugh. I'll still watch, of course, but aside from a few series here and there, not too much to look forward to. Maybe September call-ups will be interesting.

Let's see what the kids look like when they're called up. What? You say there are no kids?

Huisj
06-08-2010, 11:17 PM
Thornton is hurt. His WHIP since that saturday outing in KC where he closed the game has not been good. I believe the next day fluids were drained from his elbow, or something like that.


That's a scarry thing.

Shut the guy down, unless you plan to trade him.


This is the most dead weight I have seen in a Sox team in a long long time. I think because of payroll, it makes things even worse compared to the late 80s.

If he is, it must be something that is causing location issues, because his velocity is fine. Maybe a feel thing where the arm itself is actually ok, but he just can't get the feel for hitting spots because it feels different after the draining? I dunno, just trying to be optimistic...it's not easy with this team.

GoGoCrede
06-08-2010, 11:20 PM
I still can't understand how so many players on this team are this bad. How is Pierre so bad? How is Quentin so bad? How is Pierzynski so bad? How is Jones so bad after a hot start? How is Beckham so bad? How is Ramirez so bad? How is Buerhrle so bad? How is Floyd so bad? (ok, he was fine tonight but has been terrible). How is Peavy so bad? How is Jenks so bad? How is Linebrink so bad?

I get why guys like Kotsay and Vizquel are bad. They are old and shouldn't be expected to be decent. I get why guys like Nix and Williams and Teahen aren't good...because they just aren't that good.

But why is half this team playing so unbelievable below what seemed like their normal ability levels prior to this year? It ridiculous. This team has exactly TWO people with batting averages over .260! Half of their 10 most played hitters are hitting below .220! Their top four starters are a combined 13-21 with a 5.35 ERA!

The performance of this team is so perplexing. How do that many guys play that bad? Coaching? Mindset? Stupidity? Clubhouse problems? Were they all playing over their heads for the years leading up to this? Is this payback from the baseball gods for the magic of 2005? Did some of these guys suddenly get old and washed up prematurely? Are they hurt? What the heck is wrong with this stinking team?

The million dollar question. I guess suckiness is contagious, that's all I can think of.

This team is more baffling than 2009's team, who won series against the Yankees and Red Sox, but could barely beat the Royals. At least that team went on more than a two-game winning streak. :smile:

LoveYourSuit
06-08-2010, 11:21 PM
If he is, it must be something that is causing location issues, because his velocity is fine. Maybe a feel thing where the arm itself is actually ok, but he just can't get the feel for hitting spots because it feels different after the draining? I dunno, just trying to be optimistic...it's not easy with this team.
.

Velocity still looks good but location has been way off.

He's got to have some sort of a hitch or something that is causing this. He has been pretty wild. Realize that wild for him is missing the location called by the catcher, not walks.

TDog
06-08-2010, 11:22 PM
This is a game the White Sox should have won. They got to the seventh with a lead and handed it over to Thornton. I wasn't surprised that Thornton couldn't hold the lead. Thornton has been shakier than Jenks lately, although no one has seemed to notice. Jenks has been unscored upon in eight of his last nine games. Tonight was the third straight game that Thorton has been scored upon. I know it was fashionable to advocate that Thornton should be the go-to closer on this team, but isn't a pitcher that can get a lot of work and stay effective.

This year, Thornton has pitched six times the day after making an appearance. In five of those outings he has been scored upon. I was hoping he would be more effective with the Sox having Monday off.

For the first six innings, the Sox did a good job attacking a hot pitcher, making him work. It would have helped if Floyd could have gone more than six, but I don't think he would have been effective another time through the Tigers order. If Thornton had only given up two, it wouldn't have taken the Sox offense out of the game.

The five runs given up by Thornton today ties him for the lead in runs scored against a Sox reliever in an outing this year. Tony Reyes gave up five runs in a game earlier this year, but he pitched 1.2 inning. Tonight Thornton only got one hitter out.

tstrike2000
06-08-2010, 11:23 PM
24-33, 9.5 games back on June 8th. The hits just keep on comin' or lack thereof.

dwalteroo
06-08-2010, 11:23 PM
These Kids Can Play 2.0 is in order.

LoveYourSuit
06-08-2010, 11:24 PM
This is a game the White Sox should have won. They got to the seventh with a lead and handed it over to Thornton. I wasn't surprised that Thornton couldn't hold the lead. Thornton has been shakier than Jenks lately, although no one has seemed to notice. Jenks has been unscored upon in eight of his last nine games. Tonight was the third straight game that Thorton has been scored upon. I know it was fashionable to advocate that Thornton should be the go-to closer on this team, but isn't a pitcher that can get a lot of work and stay effective.

This year, Thornton has pitched six times the day after making an appearance. In five of those outings he has been scored upon. I was hoping he would be more effective with the Sox having Monday off.

For the first six innings, the Sox did a good job attacking a hot pitcher, making him work. It would have helped if Floyd could have gone more than six, but I don't think he would have been effective another time through the Tigers order. If Thornton had only given up two, it wouldn't have taken the Sox offense out of the game.

The five runs given up by Thornton today ties him for the lead in runs scored against a Sox reliever in an outing this year. Tony Reyes gave up five runs in a game earlier this year, but he pitched 1.2 inning. Tonight Thornton only got one hitter out.


:scratch:

Although that name has a good ring to it, who the hell is he?

LoveYourSuit
06-08-2010, 11:26 PM
These Kids Can Play 2.0 is in order.


Sadly I think we are in for a rude awakening, this farm doesn't have too many kids that can play.

I see farm full of 4A ball players.


Beckham has been a complete train wreck, and he is suppose the be the #1 guy for the future.

russ99
06-08-2010, 11:28 PM
Do something. We can't keep going on like this...

It's sad. I watched the Nationals game tonight, and they were more entertaining than watching the Sox continue to go through the motions.

DirtySox
06-08-2010, 11:30 PM
Do something. We can't keep going on like this...

Firing Ozzie would be a fantastic start.

jabrch
06-08-2010, 11:31 PM
It's a different guy every night...this team is baffling to me.

palehozenychicty
06-08-2010, 11:32 PM
Sadly I think we are in for a rude awakening, this farm doesn't have too many kids that can play.

I see farm full of 4A ball players.


Beckham has been a complete train wreck, and he is suppose the be the #1 guy for the future.


It's not his fault. They brought him up way too fast. Hitters need at minimum 18 months of farm seasoning to be declared ready. I still think he can be a good player. They just need to send him down for a little while to regain his confidence.

russ99
06-08-2010, 11:32 PM
Firing Ozzie would be a fantastic start.

Dumping Walker, trading A.J and Paul and waiving Linebrink and Williams would be a fantastic start.

This is like 2007, we have a crappy team. Ozzie took us to the playoffs a year later in 2008, so there's no reason he can't do that again given actual talent that has any interest in competing.

soltrain21
06-08-2010, 11:33 PM
It's not his fault. They brought him up way too fast. Hitters need at minimum 18 months of farm seasoning to be declared ready. I still think he can be a good player. They just need to send him down for a little while to regain his confidence.

Where did you pull that whimsical number from?

BadBobbyJenks
06-08-2010, 11:35 PM
Oh look a pitcher who has been struggling puts together a good outing and the offense/bullpen don't show up. This is what bad teams do, continue to find ways to lose.

LoveYourSuit
06-08-2010, 11:37 PM
It's not his fault. They brought him up way too fast. Hitters need at minimum 18 months of farm seasoning to be declared ready. I still think he can be a good player. They just need to send him down for a little while to regain his confidence.


10 X False.


You cannot tell me a guy was not ready for the show when he was knocking on the door for ROY.

I am tired of hearing this. I am tired of management getting blamed for this.


He was ready, what more did he have to do the last year as proof of that?

The possiblilty that he might have a 2 cent head and can't break out of this thing on his own, that's another story.

dwalteroo
06-08-2010, 11:40 PM
Sadly I think we are in for a rude awakening, this farm doesn't have too many kids that can play.

I see farm full of 4A ball players.



Oh right...that.

I guess I'd rather have prospects at this point - that's probably my main point. This just isn't working (as we all seem to agree).

BadBobbyJenks
06-08-2010, 11:42 PM
I didn't watch the game, how in the hell did Thornton get to stay out there for 3 hits and two walks in 1/3 of an inning?

TDog
06-08-2010, 11:45 PM
:scratch:

Although that name has a good ring to it, who the hell is he?

Former mayor of San Luis, Arizona, and a Yuma County Supervisor. I meant Tony Pena. I type fast, and typos take the form of incorrect words more often than incorrect letters. I should have read over my post before filing it.

palehozenychicty
06-08-2010, 11:55 PM
10 X False.


You cannot tell me a guy was not ready for the show when he was knocking on the door for ROY.

I am tired of hearing this. I am tired of management getting blamed for this.


He was ready, what more did he have to do the last year as proof of that?

The possiblilty that he might have a 2 cent head and can't break out of this thing on his own, that's another story.


It's possible that he can't play, but I think as one of their highest picks in years, they could have taken a little more time with him. That's what I think and I stand by it. He did hit well in the minors, but it wasn't even a full season of work. Young players are the biggest commodity in the game right now, and the Sox may have wasted a cornerstone for nothing. You think this team, if they eke out the division, was going to beat any of the contenders out east or in Anaheim last year? Please.

The odds of this team winning the division were not the greatest anyway, even if the starting pitching was as good as advertised. You're telling me that adding Andruw Jones, Mark Teahen and Juan Pierre to this team were going to improve this ****ty offense from the past four-five years? They were counting on a lot of unknowns in the field, and it came up snake eyes. Now they must make a serious commitment to free agency or the farm. You can't build a consistent pennant contender without choosing one option first. Let's see what happens. It's a big transitional period for this franchise right now. Five years after a world series win, they've regressed very fast.

LoveYourSuit
06-09-2010, 12:45 AM
It's possible that he can't play, but I think as one of their highest picks in years, they could have taken a little more time with him. That's what I think and I stand by it. He did hit well in the minors, but it wasn't even a full season of work. Young players are the biggest commodity in the game right now, and the Sox may have wasted a cornerstone for nothing. You think this team, if they eke out the division, was going to beat any of the contenders out east or in Anaheim last year? Please.

The odds of this team winning the division were not the greatest anyway, even if the starting pitching was as good as advertised. You're telling me that adding Andruw Jones, Mark Teahen and Juan Pierre to this team were going to improve this ****ty offense from the past four-five years? They were counting on a lot of unknowns in the field, and it came up snake eyes. Now they must make a serious commitment to free agency or the farm. You can't build a consistent pennant contender without choosing one option first. Let's see what happens. It's a big transitional period for this franchise right now. Five years after a world series win, they've regressed very fast.


No disagreement here.

The franchise is in complete train wreck mode right now from top to bottom. There is not good youth dowin the farm and right now the payroll is full of fat. And the fans are not going to be showing up soon either.


I hate to say it, we are closer to Baltimore Orioles territory right now than we are Angels or Red Sox (where it looked we were heading to in 2006).


But I don't blame the franchise one bit about Beckham. Other than moving him out of position, the guy was suppose to be the finished product when it comes to offense. He's just not doing it right now.

guillensdisciple
06-09-2010, 03:11 AM
I really want to explode on this team, but I have done it so many times this season that I have been drained.

Just pull the plug please, spare me.

palehozenychicty
06-09-2010, 04:47 AM
No disagreement here.

The franchise is in complete train wreck mode right now from top to bottom. There is not good youth dowin the farm and right now the payroll is full of fat. And the fans are not going to be showing up soon either.


I hate to say it, we are closer to Baltimore Orioles territory right now than we are Angels or Red Sox (where it looked we were heading to in 2006).


But I don't blame the franchise one bit about Beckham. Other than moving him out of position, the guy was suppose to be the finished product when it comes to offense. He's just not doing it right now.

He's not, and it happens. It's up to everyone on the team to help him be successful. He has the ability, and last year proved that. If he needs to be sent down and work on mechanics, so be it. I don't know what they are waiting on, honestly.

doublem23
06-09-2010, 05:40 AM
10 X False.


You cannot tell me a guy was not ready for the show when he was knocking on the door for ROY.

I am tired of hearing this. I am tired of management getting blamed for this.


He was ready, what more did he have to do the last year as proof of that?

The possiblilty that he might have a 2 cent head and can't break out of this thing on his own, that's another story.

Mike Caruso had a great rookie year, too, but his career busted, and it's widely recognized that the Sox rushing him to the Majors was a big reason why. There's a reason why guys have to put their time in the minor leagues, there's lessons you learn down there that are much more difficult to learn in the Majors.

Maybe Beckham this is just a bad year for him. Maybe he was destined to fail as a Major League player, but certainly bringing him up with less than 1 year under his belt in the minors is not helping him.

doublem23
06-09-2010, 06:01 AM
We need new ownership. This is as good as it's gets with Reinsdorf.
He better have something up his sleeve to sign James and Bosh or there will be a revolt at UC, too.

It's not even summer yet and baseball season is over.

How is Reinsdorf the villian here? He's spending money, the Sox have the 7th highest payroll in the Majors (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries/teams), 2nd in the division only behind Detroit.

Reinsdorf is one of the few guys in this organization currently pulling his weight.

bunty_doghunter
06-09-2010, 06:59 AM
10 X False.
You cannot tell me a guy was not ready for the show when he was knocking on the door for ROY.

I am tired of hearing this. I am tired of management getting blamed for this.

He was ready, what more did he have to do the last year as proof of that?

The possiblilty that he might have a 2 cent head and can't break out of this thing on his own, that's another story.
This!

October26
06-09-2010, 07:43 AM
Left in the 7th.

I have seen quite enough. Been in denial for a long time now, but it's time to make big changes. My fork is firmly stuck in.

The one time Gavin actually doesn't suck, he's let down. Too bad, he was battling out there. Matt had a bad night.

My friend who always goes to games with me has an attendance record of 1-8. Bummer.


I feel the same way. It is tough to be a White Sox fan right now, that is for sure. :(:

Railsplitter
06-09-2010, 09:20 AM
Honor The Hawk by playing like turkeys. :(:

LoveYourSuit
06-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Mike Caruso had a great rookie year, too, but his career busted, and it's widely recognized that the Sox rushing him to the Majors was a big reason why. There's a reason why guys have to put their time in the minor leagues, there's lessons you learn down there that are much more difficult to learn in the Majors.

Maybe Beckham this is just a bad year for him. Maybe he was destined to fail as a Major League player, but certainly bringing him up with less than 1 year under his belt in the minors is not helping him.


I think we can both agree that Beckham was a much highly rated prospect over Caruso, by a ton.

I honestly don't feel Beckham was rushed based on the what scouts said of him coming out of college, very close to ML ready.

asindc
06-09-2010, 10:10 AM
I still can't understand how so many players on this team are this bad. How is Pierre so bad? How is Quentin so bad? How is Pierzynski so bad? How is Jones so bad after a hot start? How is Beckham so bad? How is Ramirez so bad? How is Buerhrle so bad? How is Floyd so bad? (ok, he was fine tonight but has been terrible). How is Peavy so bad? How is Jenks so bad? How is Linebrink so bad?

I get why guys like Kotsay and Vizquel are bad. They are old and shouldn't be expected to be decent. I get why guys like Nix and Williams and Teahen aren't good...because they just aren't that good.

But why is half this team playing so unbelievable below what seemed like their normal ability levels prior to this year? It ridiculous. This team has exactly TWO people with batting averages over .260! Half of their 10 most played hitters are hitting below .220! Their top four starters are a combined 13-21 with a 5.35 ERA!

The performance of this team is so perplexing. How do that many guys play that bad? Coaching? Mindset? Stupidity? Clubhouse problems? Were they all playing over their heads for the years leading up to this? Is this payback from the baseball gods for the magic of 2005? Did some of these guys suddenly get old and washed up prematurely? Are they hurt? What the heck is wrong with this stinking team?

These are also my sentiments. Regardless of how well (or badly) any Sox fan thought this team would collectively play, or how well (or badly) any of us thought individuals players would play, I can't imagine anyone thought this train wreck would occur. This is worse than 2007 and 2009, IMO. AJ, Quentin, Alexei, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Jenks each needs to do look at himself in the mirror and ask if he recognizes himself. I surely don't recognize them as players anymore.

Tragg
06-09-2010, 10:15 AM
It's a different guy every night...this team is baffling to me.
Nothing baffling.
It's a real bad team.
Bad teams look good a couple of times a week and still win a lot of games.

Tragg
06-09-2010, 10:17 AM
I didn't watch the game, how in the hell did Thornton get to stay out there for 3 hits and two walks in 1/3 of an inning?

That's the way Guillen's managed all year...wait until a pitcher pitches us out of the game before removing him.
It's not easy to handle a staff with so many bad pitchers.

doublem23
06-09-2010, 10:18 AM
I think we can both agree that Beckham was a much highly rated prospect over Caruso, by a ton.

I honestly don't feel Beckham was rushed based on the what scouts said of him coming out of college, very close to ML ready.

You're underselling Caruso, who was the 42nd overall pick in the 1996 Draft and, prior to the 1998 season, the #34 prospect in baseball according to B-A. Beckham, FWIW, was the #20 prospect in baseball the year before his debut according to BA.

tstrike2000
06-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Yeah, the mishmosh of veterans and younger talent haven't collectively played well, but we're only a few games away from being in last place. This is ridiculous for a team that's got some good talent over teams like the Royals and Cleveland, whom are both garbage.

soxrme
06-09-2010, 11:12 AM
That's the way Guillen's managed all year...wait until a pitcher pitches us out of the game before removing him.
It's not easy to handle a staff with so many bad pitchers.

He was throwing all high pitches and should have been taken out:angry:

salty99
06-09-2010, 11:22 AM
:fireozzie

khan
06-09-2010, 12:57 PM
Here, I'll try to help answer your queries, as you have many of them.

I still can't understand how so many players on this team are this bad.
How is Pierre so bad?
He's 32, is playing in the Big Boy AL for the first time, and he wasn't even a starter in 2009 or 2008 in the little boy NL. KW overpaid for him, and Ozzie's relationship with him from FLA [coupled with OG's utter inability to judge talent] caused them to overpay for a guy who just isn't that good. In short, KW gave away 2 MLB-level pitchers for a BACKUP OF FROM THE ****ING NATIONAL LEAGUE. [Think about that for a minute.]

How is Quentin so bad?
He's a career .250 hitter and a China Doll. It is becoming more and more apparent that 2008 was an extreme anomaly. The SOX have to plan their future WITHOUT counting on much from Quentin.

How is Pierzynski so bad?
He's 33 years old, and has caught more than 1200 games in his career. He wouldn't be the FIRST 33 year old catcher to be done. Unfortunately, age has caught up to AJ.

How is Jones so bad after a hot start?
He just isn't that good any more. Perhaps he was a PED cheat back when he was good at baseball. But Jones simply isn't good anymore, for whatever reason.

How is Beckham so bad?
He could be having his Sophomore Slump. He could be a fraud, we just don't know. It was foolhardy to count on Beckham for so much, despite his utter lack of a track record. Send him down to Charlotte, REGARDLESS of what is brought back up.

How is Ramirez so bad?
He's done what he always does in April/May; June is somewhat below his history, but not extremely so. At the price point, Ramirez is a good value for the position. The SOX need MORE players of his value, not more obesely-paid craptacular veterans to become successful.

How is Buerhrle so bad?
He could just be done. He's pitched a lot of innings in his career.

How is Floyd so bad? (ok, he was fine tonight but has been terrible).
The SOX gave him his money, and built the pitching staff WITHOUT a true long reliever/6th starter-capable-pitcher. It's only a theory, but Floyd has caught incumbent's disease, since he KNOWS he can't be replaced. The SOX stupidly built this part of the team without a margin for error. For Floyd, he has both financial security AND job security. In other words, he has LITTLE of the motivating factors that drive many professional athletes.

How is Peavy so bad?
He's coming off an injury, and now pitching in the Big Boy AL.

How is Jenks so bad? How is Linebrink so bad?
Relievers are notoriously inconsistent. Jenks should have been sold high after 2008 or in 2009, NOT kept around for the inevitable decline.

Linebrink represents the failure of the minor league system and everyone involved in coaching/scouting. The SOX should be able to produce a 7th inning guy every half-decade or so, but they haven't. Thus, the SOX had to overpay for crap.

I get why guys like Kotsay and Vizquel are bad. They are old and shouldn't be expected to be decent. I get why guys like Nix and Williams and Teahen aren't good...because they just aren't that good.
Actually, there are more guys in this roster that just aren't that good. That is, if you take a step back and appreciate the rosters' true level of ability.

But why is half this team playing so unbelievable below what seemed like their normal ability levels prior to this year? It ridiculous.
Exactly who is below "expectations?"

Pierre: I expected some drop off, given his age, his recent history, and him being in a new league/team. If you look at him through the prism of his "career averages," you'd be disappointed. But if you recall that he's older now, has been a BACKUP for a few years, and is playing in the Big Boy league, you should be able to adjust your expectations of him downward. I know I did.

Ramirez: He's always a slow starter.

Rios: He's ABOVE his normal output.

Konerko: He's ALSO above his normal output, given that this is a contract year.

Teahen: He's right where I thought he'd be.

Quentin: He's a career .250 hitter. He's RIGHT AT his career averages.

Beckham: There IS NO HISTORY on him. Therefore, he can't be counted on being "below expectations."

AJ: At 33 years old, I expected him to take a dip in production.

So again: WHO is below expectations?

The performance of this team is so perplexing. How do that many guys play that bad? Coaching? Mindset? Stupidity? Clubhouse problems? Were they all playing over their heads for the years leading up to this? Is this payback from the baseball gods for the magic of 2005? Did some of these guys suddenly get old and washed up prematurely? Are they hurt? What the heck is wrong with this stinking team?
They're just not that good. Whether you like it or not, this is the sad truth.

pudge
06-09-2010, 01:40 PM
This is a game the White Sox should have won.

Seriously? Seriously??? What was the score, 2-1? Why is that a game they "should" win? So they made a pitcher work, and still only managed to score two runs (on a home run no less).

Does a team really "deserve" to win when they only score two runs? Maybe if there were two outs in the 9th and they were up 2-0, okay.

Some people are just never going to fail to slay me... 1983, it's right around corner... 1983!!

TDog
06-09-2010, 05:35 PM
Seriously? Seriously??? What was the score, 2-1? Why is that a game they "should" win? So they made a pitcher work, and still only managed to score two runs (on a home run no less).

Does a team really "deserve" to win when they only score two runs? Maybe if there were two outs in the 9th and they were up 2-0, okay.

Some people are just never going to fail to slay me... 1983, it's right around corner... 1983!!

If the White Sox take a lead into the seventh they should win. It doesn't matter if the score is 2-1, 1-0 or 10-9. Seriously.

The White Sox didn't lose last night because they are a bad team or have bad hitters. They lost because last night, Matt Thornton was a bad pitcher.

Obviously, the White Sox didn't deserve to win. Thornton for his appearance, posted an ERA of 135.00. Thornton's job was to pitch one scoreless inning, and some people around here believe he must be injured if he doesn't. Santos should have pitched one scoreless inning and Jenks should have pitched a scoreless inning, as he has in eight of his last nine outings.

The White Sox only scored once in the most recent World Series game they won. And they deserved to win. Before 2005, the White Sox scored only once in the most recent World Series game they won, and they deserved to win that one.

The 1930 Philadelphia Phillies scored 1,199 runs and as a team hit .315, but only won 52 of 154 games, finishing seven games worse than the next worse team in the National League. It isn't about how many runs you score.

When you build your team around pitching and the pitching doesn't show up, you don't deserve to win, and I never said the White Sox "deserved to win last night." But the White Sox clearly should have won last night.

GoGoCrede
06-09-2010, 05:38 PM
Hey, at least we got free shirts for our trouble.

Johnny Mostil
06-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Here, I'll try to help answer your queries, as you have many of them.


I thought Hulsj posed some interesting questions. My thanks for posting some good answers.:tiphat:

A. Cavatica
06-09-2010, 06:04 PM
Firing Ozzie would be a fantastic start.

Firing Ozzie and most of his coaching staff might be just what the doctor ordered. I sure wish they'd try it before giving away Thornton for a prospect.

WhiteSox5187
06-09-2010, 06:09 PM
Firing Ozzie and most of his coaching staff might be just what the doctor ordered. I sure wish they'd try it before giving away Thornton for a prospect.

No manager is going to make this team win. They are what they are and that is simply a bad baseball team.

doublem23
06-09-2010, 07:21 PM
The 1930 Philadelphia Phillies scored 1,199 runs and as a team hit .315, but only won 52 of 154 games, finishing seven games worse than the next worse team in the National League. It isn't about how many runs you score.

A) WOW, you found one obscure historical anecdote that backs up your point over the course of 150+ years of organized baseball. OBVIOUSLY, you then have a completely irrefutable argument. :rolleyes:

B) The 1930 Phillies didn't even score 1,000 runs. Seriously dude, it takes MAYBE 10 seconds to look **** like that up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl/player_search.cgi?search=1930+Phillies

It's 2010. This is the American League. When you score 2 runs, you never deserve to win. You can fall backwards into a win if you have insane pitching, but putting up a pair on the scoreboard is not a recipe for sustained success.

voodoochile
06-09-2010, 07:37 PM
A) WOW, you found one obscure historical anecdote that backs up your point over the course of 150+ years of organized baseball. OBVIOUSLY, you then have a completely irrefutable argument. :rolleyes:

B) The 1930 Phillies didn't even score 1,000 runs. Seriously dude, it takes MAYBE 10 seconds to look **** like that up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl/player_search.cgi?search=1930+Phillies

It's 2010. This is the American League. When you score 2 runs, you never deserve to win. You can fall backwards into a win if you have insane pitching, but putting up a pair on the scoreboard is not a recipe for sustained success.

Actually, they gave up 1199 runs from the looks of things...

TDog
06-09-2010, 08:15 PM
A) WOW, you found one obscure historical anecdote that backs up your point over the course of 150+ years of organized baseball. OBVIOUSLY, you then have a completely irrefutable argument. :rolleyes:

B) The 1930 Phillies didn't even score 1,000 runs. Seriously dude, it takes MAYBE 10 seconds to look **** like that up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl/player_search.cgi?search=1930+Phillies

It's 2010. This is the American League. When you score 2 runs, you never deserve to win. You can fall backwards into a win if you have insane pitching, but putting up a pair on the scoreboard is not a recipe for sustained success.


I was going from memory of a conversation I had with a former major leaguer who was alive at the time. You're right. I should have looked it up. I should probably look up the batting average and the team record to see if I screwed that up, or check to see if they scored more runs in 154 games than any number of teams did in 162 games in the American League last year. I apologize for being lazy.

That doesn't change my point that if you have the lead in the seventh inning, you should win the game. It doesn't matter how many runs you score. You already have the lead. It doesn't matter if you lead 9-8 or 2-1. You are into the point of the game where you are using your shutdown relievers who are supposed to thrive on coming into games to preserve slim leads.

If two runs has you the lead in the seventh, you should expect to be able to win with two runs.

If the White Sox were losing with the best-performing pitching staff in the league, you would have an argument. But the White Sox staff, which was expected to be among the best, isn't even in the top half in the American League.