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thomas35forever
06-05-2010, 09:52 PM
Personally, I don't believe in blowing up a whole team at once, especially a team with talent that just isn't showing up for some reason. I see long-term repercussions for this team if it gets blown up. I don't want to endure 2-3 additional seasons of losing teams. I'll always be a Sox fan, but I'll have a hard time getting excited for games if I know the team is going to be bad heading into a season.

I'm not saying don't make any changes. There are a few players on this team I wouldn't be totally sad to see go. I just think blowing it up completely would push us into a deeper hole than we already are. Can anyone convince me otherwise?

theamb
06-05-2010, 09:54 PM
What would blowing up this team do?

Perhaps bring in some guys that will actually try?

thomas35forever
06-05-2010, 09:55 PM
Perhaps bring in some guys that will actually try?
Perhaps. Can someone give me a better answer than that?

GoGoCrede
06-05-2010, 09:58 PM
Make attendance suffer a bit, since we'd be getting rid of fan favorites? :shrug:

Jpgr91
06-05-2010, 09:59 PM
Personally, I don't believe in blowing up a whole team at once, especially a team with talent that just isn't showing up for some reason. I see long-term repercussions for this team if it gets blown up. I don't want to endure 2-3 additional seasons of losing teams. I'll always be a Sox fan, but I'll have a hard time getting excited for games if I know the team is going to be bad heading into a season.

I'm not saying don't make any changes. There are a few players on this team I wouldn't be totally sad to see go. I just think blowing it up completely would push us into a deeper hole than we already are. Can anyone convince me otherwise?

Depends what you mean by blowing it up. Would there really be any harm in getting rid of AJ, PK, Jones, Kotsay, Garcia, and Putz? Would any of these players help the team in 2011?

thomas35forever
06-05-2010, 10:00 PM
Depends what you mean by blowing it up. Would there really be any harm in getting rid of AJ, PK, Jones, Kotsay, Garcia, and Putz? Would any of these players help the team in 2011?
Everybody on this board seems to have their own definitions of it. I'd prefer if they use that.

Jpgr91
06-05-2010, 10:00 PM
Make attendance suffer a bit, since we'd be getting rid of fan favorites? :shrug:

I am sure that any salary saving would be greater than the lost revenue from decreased attendance.

CLR01
06-05-2010, 10:02 PM
I'm not saying don't make any changes. There are a few players on this team I wouldn't be totally sad to see go. I just think blowing it up completely would push us into a deeper hole than we already are. Can anyone convince me otherwise?


The problem is the ones people are willing to let go wouldn't bring back players who would improve the team. At some point people will need to realize the "core of the team" is declining in talent and shuffling the deck chairs just won't cut it anymore. Sticking with them too long could put youin the exact same place as blowing the tem up it just may delay it a bit.

Red Barchetta
06-05-2010, 10:13 PM
Something is definitely broken on this team. I remember earlier this season after Beuhrle was knocked around pretty hard and they took him out of the game. The next inning, the camera caught him in the dugout laughing and joking around with the other players.

I'm not saying this is Beurhle's fault and that he needs to pull a Zambrano on a defensless Gatorade cooler, however to me, that moment characterized this team.

Perhaps Ozzie is too much a player's manager. Perhaps he talks so much that the players have just tuned him out. Something needs to change, not sure what.

doublem23
06-05-2010, 10:17 PM
I really, really just want someone to get fired. Is that too much to ask for?

Noneck
06-05-2010, 10:24 PM
Very difficult to blow up a team with a very weak minor league system and with the trade worth of current players being very low.

sox1970
06-05-2010, 10:26 PM
I really, really just want someone to get fired. Is that too much to ask for?

No, it's not too much to ask for. 2005 is now dragging this organization down by blind loyalty. I hope Kenny quits, and Hahn fires the whole coaching staff and starts over. Obviously, there will be a lot of new players next year, but that's every year. Four of the 2005 crew will be gone then too-AJ, PK, Freddy, and Jenks. Thanks for the memories, but it's time to build a new team that can win sometime in the next few years.

Maybe the Braves will ask Ozzie to come down there. Or the Marlins may want to talk to Ozzie once Han-Ram makes Fredi Gonzalez go away.

Brian26
06-05-2010, 10:35 PM
Thanks for the memories, but it's time to build a new team that can win sometime in the next few years.

You think we're only three years away?

:rolling:

sox1970
06-05-2010, 10:45 PM
You think we're only three years away?


That's left to be seen. 2004 didn't end with anyone thinking they were one year away. They lost 90 in 2007, and won the division the next year. Anything can happen if you spend your money the right way. The Sox payroll level is high enough to compete. They need to find a new mix of players and coaches. And with Kenny, after he took on Rios and Peavy last year, to not have a winning team around those salaries, is the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. He's out of passes.

Parrothead
06-05-2010, 10:48 PM
Save money.

Noneck
06-05-2010, 10:48 PM
You think we're only three years away?

:rolling:

Maybe he meant dog years.

Tragg
06-05-2010, 10:49 PM
I just think blowing it up completely would push us into a deeper hole than we already are. Can anyone convince me otherwise?

Konerko, AJ, Putz, Freddie and Jenks we're going to lose anyway, so we should get some players for them. Also, if you like them, we have a better chance of bringing them back if we trade them, than if we don't.

Thornton could really bring some quality back....so he's worth a look. In the end, he's reliever and you can find relievers.

If anyone wants Kotsay, TEahan or Linebrink, do a dance and let them go.

It's obvious this team needs fresh blood.

Otherwise, I agree with your point. If we start trading, say, starting pitching, we could be put into a hole.

TheVulture
06-05-2010, 10:50 PM
Depends what you mean by blowing it up. Would there really be any harm in getting rid of AJ, PK, Jones, Kotsay, Garcia, and Putz? Would any of these players help the team in 2011?

Well PK is still our best hitter, when you've got a lineup where 6 or 7 out of nine are apparently useless at the plate, I'd say that could do a lot of harm for 2011.

edit: Oops, forgot PK's a pending free agent. Still, though.

voodoochile
06-05-2010, 10:52 PM
Depends what you mean by blowing it up. Would there really be any harm in getting rid of AJ, PK, Jones, Kotsay, Garcia, and Putz? Would any of these players help the team in 2011?

Kind of depends on what you get in return and who replaces the lost innings.

Garcia = Hudson - okay, but would Hudson be served better by finishing the year in AAA and getting a September call up?

PK = Viciedo - don't know if he's ready for the bigs after 2 months in AAA. Would probably be rushing him, might have lead to bad results for next year if he gets frustrated.

AJ - if you bring up Flowers now, it's a horrible idea, IMO. Castro doesn't even want to be a starter as I understand it.

Kotsay and Jones - you're not going to get anything for them. I guess they could be the DH and 1B the rest of the year so you don't have to call up Viciedo

Putz - I don't think you'll get much for him either at this point in time.

Again, if you are going to get something big back then you consider it. If not, you offer arb and let them walk if someone signs them, IMO.

russ99
06-05-2010, 10:58 PM
Konerko, AJ, Putz, Freddie and Jenks we're going to lose anyway, so we should get some players for them. Also, if you like them, we have a better chance of bringing them back if we trade them, than if we don't.

Thornton could really bring some quality back....so he's worth a look. In the end, he's reliever and you can find relievers.

If anyone wants Kotsay, TEahan or Linebrink, do a dance and let them go.

It's obvious this team needs fresh blood.

Otherwise, I agree with your point. If we start trading, say, starting pitching, we could be put into a hole.

My thoughts exactly. We want to change up the culture in the clubhouse and bring in younger players. We don't want an Oakland-like situation where we throw everyone away and rebuild for 4-5 years, since that's how long it would take to rebuild the farm system.

Somewhere in the middle would be good. Ditch the overpayed guys who are declining and don't want to be here and keep enough guys where you could catch lightning in a bottle and contend in one of the next 2 years.

Oh, and please send Carlos Quentin to AAA. He needs a shock to snap out of whatever self-inflicted funk he's in. Maybe riding the buses for a while will make him realize the massive opportunity he's wasting.

DirtySox
06-05-2010, 11:03 PM
Again, if you are going to get something big back then you consider it. If not, you offer arb and let them walk if someone signs them, IMO.

They absolutely would not be offering arbitration to PK, and it's very unlikely they would to AJ either.

DirtySox
06-05-2010, 11:09 PM
It will be very interesting to see who the Sox draft on Monday and Tuesday, and the subsequent spending.

Has the organization recognized the woeful state of the farm and its direct effect upon the horrendous major league club, thereby leading to an increase in spending? Or will the lackluster performance of this year's Sox team and its effect upon attendance/revenue cause them to skimp even more?

I would guess the latter.

thomas35forever
06-05-2010, 11:12 PM
Konerko, AJ, Putz, Freddie and Jenks we're going to lose anyway, so we should get some players for them. Also, if you like them, we have a better chance of bringing them back if we trade them, than if we don't.

Thornton could really bring some quality back....so he's worth a look. In the end, he's reliever and you can find relievers.

If anyone wants Kotsay, TEahan or Linebrink, do a dance and let them go.

It's obvious this team needs fresh blood.

Otherwise, I agree with your point. If we start trading, say, starting pitching, we could be put into a hole.
I'd hold onto Thornton. He and Santos are the best relievers we have right now. As much as I'd like a shakeup of the roster, you should at least hold onto someone you can trust. I know we're not on pace to lose 100 games at the moment, but if you trade Thornton, you increase your chances of losing that many games.

hi im skot
06-05-2010, 11:21 PM
Save money.

So would switching car insurance.

DirtySox
06-05-2010, 11:22 PM
I'd hold onto Thornton. He and Santos are the best relievers we have right now. As much as I'd like a shakeup of the roster, you should at least hold onto someone you can trust. I know we're not on pace to lose 100 games at the moment, but if you trade Thornton, you increase your chances of losing that many games.

Who cares if they lose 100? Losing 90 versus 100 means jack **** except draft position. Either way, this team isn't making the playoffs. Thornton is the only piece that would bring back a sizable return and at the same time he makes perfect sense to move. It's about time Kenny sells high on something. Lord knows he's mastered the art of selling low.

voodoochile
06-05-2010, 11:24 PM
That's the thing, would it actually save money or would it end up hurting ticket sales both this year and during the off season. Yeah, it probably won't be a banner year anyway, but admitting it by blowing up the team now won't help...

Noneck
06-05-2010, 11:30 PM
That's the thing, would it actually save money or would it end up hurting ticket sales both this year and during the off season. Yeah, it probably won't be a banner year anyway, but admitting it by blowing up the team now won't help...

Sox fans aren't stupid. They cant dress up a plate of chuck roast anymore and tell you its Kobe beef.

Tragg
06-05-2010, 11:45 PM
That's the thing, would it actually save money or would it end up hurting ticket sales both this year and during the off season. Yeah, it probably won't be a banner year anyway, but admitting it by blowing up the team now won't help...
Konerko, Putz, AJ and Jenks aren't coming back, whether or not we trade them.

It's a different era, but the trades of Floyd Bannister and Harold Baines in the late 1980s were major assists in the long run through the 1990s.

doublem23
06-06-2010, 12:08 AM
It's a different era, but the trades of Floyd Bannister and Harold Baines in the late 1980s were major assists in the long run through the 1990s.

Yeah, that whole 1 post-season appearance that decade. What a model to try and recreate.

Tragg
06-06-2010, 12:23 AM
Yeah, that whole 1 post-season appearance that decade. What a model to try and recreate.

????? Those were awesome trades for any era
And you do realize that the number of playoff teams has doubled since then?
Under today's rules, we'd have made the playoffs 4 times in the early 1990s (counting the 1994 team, barred by strike), the specific period those trades helped.

Nelfox02
06-06-2010, 12:35 AM
I would love to sit down with Kenny, heck, even have the chairman there, along with the sox top minor league/player development people and have then honestly answer this question----"what is the plan?"

I think we all understand that this is business, all businesses have a plan of some sort. I have to think the Sox do, but for the last few years I really cant figure it out. They want to maximize revenue, and they realize to do that they have to field a consistent winner----but are they a team that mixes young talent they develop with the occasional solid FA signing to fill in a hole, or get them over the top? not really are they a team that relies solely on home grown players to fill out the roster? no.... are they a team that goes out and uses the FA market to get the best players availale to put a winner on the field? certainly not

so what are they? what is the 5 year plan at least? From all I see it appears all they do is half ass approach after half ass approach each off season and "hope" for the best very few businesses ever succeed with a stategy like that

I think that 2005 has one lingering, and very damaging affect----that year the half assed approach worked perfectly......nearly everything went their way that team was not built in the off season to contend for a world series, I would argue that team most likely was not even built to contend for the division do they honestly think they can keep trying that approach and have consistent success? they cant possibly be that stupid....can they?

ChiSox81
06-06-2010, 12:42 AM
Well there is a problem with blowing the whole thing up. The pitching doesn't need to be blown up it is fine. Sure guys like Floyd and Peavy have struggled but they will be fine long term. We just need to upgrade the offense and defense and the near future can be saved. If at the trade deadline we could trade something like Santos and PK to the Angels and get some top notch prospects along with buying a contract of a team that is selling like we did last year with Rios, next year could shape up to be something special.

LoveYourSuit
06-06-2010, 12:47 AM
Any cost saving deal you take, no matter what's in return.

I hope the Twins can just take off with this thing so that the front office has no hesitation. Fals hope gets you into a big mess like it did last seson late in the year.

Almost 10 games out, this should be enough for KW to pull trigger and not look back.


Anyone worried that a fire sale will hurt attendance, the damage has been done. The Sox will not draw files this year. Time to move on.

Crede24Thome25
06-06-2010, 03:16 AM
I really, really just want someone to get fired. Is that too much to ask for?
I second this. Bring on spring training 2011, this season is a lost cause. Hopefully the youngsters can do us some good next year.

Carneyman14
06-06-2010, 03:29 AM
Let's sign Lebron James. I hear he's a free agent...

october23sp
06-06-2010, 03:41 AM
Blowing up this team would get the youngsters ready for a run in a couple years, what we have now are a lot of old farts who will not make another run in their careers.

samurai_sox
06-06-2010, 04:09 AM
Something is definitely broken on this team. I remember earlier this season after Beuhrle was knocked around pretty hard and they took him out of the game. The next inning, the camera caught him in the dugout laughing and joking around with the other players.

I'm not saying this is Beurhle's fault and that he needs to pull a Zambrano on a defensless Gatorade cooler, however to me, that moment characterized this team.

Perhaps Ozzie is too much a player's manager. Perhaps he talks so much that the players have just tuned him out. Something needs to change, not sure what.

Yeah no kidding, two years ago Buehrle beat the hell out of a space heater in the dugout after the Twins chased him out of a game. I guess he just doesn't care this year.

doublem23
06-06-2010, 05:20 AM
Blowing up this team would get the youngsters ready for a run in a couple years, what we have now are a lot of old farts who will not make another run in their careers.

Uh, what youngsters?

wassagstdu
06-06-2010, 07:15 AM
Something is definitely broken on this team. I remember earlier this season after Beuhrle was knocked around pretty hard and they took him out of the game. The next inning, the camera caught him in the dugout laughing and joking around with the other players.
Do you think you see that attitude from Beckham, from Quentin, from Pierre, from Teahen, from AJ, from any of the other underperforming pitchers? I don't. They all look like they are obsessing about their failure to me. Maybe Buehrle is trying to help them relax a bit.

Viva Medias B's
06-06-2010, 07:38 AM
What would happen in the event of this team being blown up depends upon how it is handled. If done right, the potential is another World Series championship. If not, we don't get anywhere.

dickallen15
06-06-2010, 08:30 AM
What would happen in the event of this team being blown up depends upon how it is handled. If done right, the potential is another World Series championship. If not, we don't get anywhere.

Due to economics, there are only a couple of White Sox veterans that would bring back decent prospects. Until the organization shows it actually can develop players, I think starting over could set the franchise back 10 years. The division isn't very strong. If they were in the East, they would have to pull the plug, but Peavy isn't going anywhere. I don't know of any team that would want to pay Buehrle $15 million a year. Danks and Floyd are sticking around. Thornton is solid. Quentin, Beckham and Rios are all talented. You still have a semblence of a decent core. Adding the correct parts could make this team a perrenial contender. They just haven't done that. When Mark Kotsay is batting 5th, you know something is awry.

The biggest disaster waiting to happen is Konerko leaving if the Sox don't get someone adequate defensively at 1B. If they keep the left side of the infield and Viciedo plays 1B, both Teahen and Ramirez will be among the league leaders in errors. The pitching staff will be more taxed. The fatal flaw with building a team around pitching is making defense an afterthought. KW did just that.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 08:40 AM
I would love to sit down with Kenny, heck, even have the chairman there, along with the sox top minor league/player development people and have then honestly answer this question----"what is the plan?"


It appears to me that the plan was to have the best rotation in baseball (or one of them), a good pen, and that this offense would be good enough if the pitching was there. That makes sense to me...I would like to see more offense than even the organization planned for - but if Peavey/MB/Gavin all delivered to plan, things wouldn't be as bad as they are now.

Do you not see that plan? Do you not see that as a viable plan? Now the results haven't been there - but that's different than not having a plan.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 08:40 AM
Perhaps bring in some guys that will actually try?

Want more grit and guts too?

You don't really think players don't "try", do you?

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 08:44 AM
It appears to me that the plan was to have the best rotation in baseball (or one of them), a good pen, and that this offense would be good enough if the pitching was there. That makes sense to me...I would like to see more offense than even the organization planned for - but if Peavey/MB/Gavin all delivered to plan, things wouldn't be as bad as they are now.

Do you not see that plan? Do you not see that as a viable plan? Now the results haven't been there - but that's different than not having a plan.

Okay - that's for this year. What about after that? This organization doesn't really have a philosophy - and because of that they have no back up plans. What is this team's identity? Look how different it is from year to year.

I think he means "bigger picture." What do our minor league systems do? Nothing. Why don't we ever have ANY young players ready to come up and be able to contribute. Why do we keep signing guys on the cheap and hoping they catch "lightening in a bottle."

tsoxman
06-06-2010, 09:01 AM
????? Those were awesome trades for any era
And you do realize that the number of playoff teams has doubled since then?
Under today's rules, we'd have made the playoffs 4 times in the early 1990s (counting the 1994 team, barred by strike), the specific period those trades helped.

I agree. That was an absurdly stupid comment. The team in the 90's was the most talented core that I have ever witnessed as a 40+ year Sox fan. That they did not have more appearance in the playoff was a reflection on the strike year of 1994 and managment's inpeptitude of signing quality free agents to enhance the team, at a time when they had the money to do so. Ironically, this period represented Reinsdorf's darkest years as an owner of this franchise.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 09:21 AM
It appears to me that the plan was to have the best rotation in baseball (or one of them), a good pen, and that this offense would be good enough if the pitching was there. That makes sense to me...I would like to see more offense than even the organization planned for - but if Peavey/MB/Gavin all delivered to plan, things wouldn't be as bad as they are now.

Do you not see that plan? Do you not see that as a viable plan? Now the results haven't been there - but that's different than not having a plan.
Hoping for good pitching with an atrocious defense behind your starting staff will not end well. We're seeing it right now.

This offense sucked on April 1, and it sucks on June 6. Big surprise.

Dan H
06-06-2010, 09:21 AM
I'm with Nelfox02. I want to know what the plan is. First of all, I hate the phrase "Blow up the team." Blowing up something sounds like someone responding in anger and frustration. And although anger and frustration may lead to decisive action, forethought and strategic thinking have to follow. Fixing the team will be a multi-step process. The first step is admitting there is a problem. Potential solutions may follow.

Tragg
06-06-2010, 09:51 AM
It appears to me that the plan was to have the best rotation in baseball (or one of them), a good pen, and that this offense would be good enough if the pitching was there. That makes sense to me...I would like to see more offense than even the organization planned for - but if Peavey/MB/Gavin all delivered to plan, things wouldn't be as bad as they are now.

Do you not see that plan? Do you not see that as a viable plan? Now the results haven't been there - but that's different than not having a plan.
They made some mistakes in execution. They backed the pitching with poor defense and they seriously misspent their resources available for offense/positional help, and deciding that they could cover DH with utility-level talent.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 09:53 AM
If you don't blow the team up -- that is, the core offensive players -- what do you do? This team is stuck with Peavy, which is a travesty. Buehrle may still be moved, so the rotation can be made over.

WhiteSox1989
06-06-2010, 10:15 AM
If you don't blow the team up -- that is, the core offensive players -- what do you do? This team is stuck with Peavy, which is a travesty. Buehrle may still be moved, so the rotation can be made over.
Having Peavy on the Sox is not a travesty.

NLaloosh
06-06-2010, 10:23 AM
I don't want to endure 2-3 additional seasons of losing teams.

Then, I'm guessing you think the Sox will take the payroll up to $ 150 mil. per year.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 10:40 AM
The biggest disaster waiting to happen is Konerko leaving if the Sox don't get someone adequate defensively at 1B. If they keep the left side of the infield and Viciedo plays 1B, both Teahen and Ramirez will be among the league leaders in errors. The pitching staff will be more taxed. The fatal flaw with building a team around pitching is making defense an afterthought. KW did just that.

I'd rather have a first baseman who's an above-average hitter for the position -- which Konerko definitely is not -- than a first baseman who's an above-average fielder for the position -- which some people claim he is (though I don't see it).

Teahen and Ramirez need to go, too.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 10:51 AM
I'd rather have a first baseman who's an above-average hitter for the position -- which Konerko definitely is not -- than a first baseman who's an above-average fielder for the position -- which some people claim he is (though I don't see it).

Are you saying you don't think PK is a league average hitter at 1B?

His OPS is 6th behind Morneu, Cabrerra, Pujols, Youk and Votto. His OBP is 13th. His avg is 18th. He's 2nd in HRs and 7th in RBI.

I can't see how you'd argue that he isn't somewhere in the top 15 offensively... Am I misunderstanding you?.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 10:52 AM
Having Peavy on the Sox is not a travesty.

No kidding.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 10:55 AM
I'm with Nelfox02. I want to know what the plan is.

You don't see evidence of a plan?

This rotation should have been much better. If it was, we wouldn't see all the pissing and moaning since we'd be right in the thick of things.

cards press box
06-06-2010, 10:57 AM
You don't see evidence of a plan?

This rotation should have been much better. If it was, we wouldn't see all the pissing and moaning since we'd be right in the thick of things.

Absolutely right.

Britt Burns
06-06-2010, 12:08 PM
What would it do? Hold some people to the accountibility they deserve. This is an organization that started declining in mid-2006 (and yes, that includes the 2008 team that just barely made the playoffs and then rolled over and died), with none of the key decision makers being punished or reprimanded. It always, always gets passed off to the players, and that just isn't fair. KW, Oz, Walker, even Coop and Cora...we haven't won despite amble financial resources, and it is time to find a new group that will find a way to win.

Crede24Thome25
06-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Uh, what youngsters?
Hudson, Danks, Mitchell, Flowers, Morel, Torres.

SI1020
06-06-2010, 12:34 PM
Hudson, Danks, Mitchell, Flowers, Morel, Torres. Not a very impressive list. Morel seems to have potential and Mitchell too, although it remains to be seen how he recovers from his injury. The rest of them?

DirtySox
06-06-2010, 12:37 PM
Hudson, Danks, Mitchell, Flowers, Morel, Torres.

Torres and Hudson are the only two players on that list who should/could be called up thus far.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 12:38 PM
(and yes, that includes the 2008 team that just barely made the playoffs and then rolled over and died),

Despite the anger, this is not accurate. The team didn't "roll over". That implies they quit and allowed themselves to get beat. They didn't. That was a good team that beat us in 2008.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 12:50 PM
What would it do? Hold some people to the accountibility they deserve. This is an organization that started declining in mid-2006 (and yes, that includes the 2008 team that just barely made the playoffs and then rolled over and died), with none of the key decision makers being punished or reprimanded. It always, always gets passed off to the players, and that just isn't fair. KW, Oz, Walker, even Coop and Cora...we haven't won despite amble financial resources, and it is time to find a new group that will find a way to win.

There is no surety of anything. The next regime may not be as good as this one.

LoveYourSuit
06-06-2010, 12:51 PM
It appears to me that the plan was to have the best rotation in baseball (or one of them), a good pen, and that this offense would be good enough if the pitching was there. That makes sense to me...I would like to see more offense than even the organization planned for - but if Peavey/MB/Gavin all delivered to plan, things wouldn't be as bad as they are now.

Do you not see that plan? Do you not see that as a viable plan? Now the results haven't been there - but that's different than not having a plan.


It's a plan set up for failure. You leave no margin for error when you there is gaping hole which is the offense.


They preach "balance" and there ZERO balance here.

dickallen15
06-06-2010, 01:00 PM
It's a plan set up for failure. You leave no margin for error when you there is gaping hole which is the offense.


They preach "balance" and there ZERO balance here.

There also was a gaping hole with the defense. Average pitching becomes good pitching with great defense. Great pitching becomes average pitching with poor defense.

Brian26
06-06-2010, 01:11 PM
This is an organization that started declining in mid-2006 (and yes, that includes the 2008 team that just barely made the playoffs and then rolled over and died), with none of the key decision makers being punished or reprimanded.

On the flip side, if Crede, Contreras and Quentin don't go down with season-ending injuries in 2008, this team could have and should have beaten Tampa Bay and may have given the Red Sox a run in the ALCS.

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 01:15 PM
On the flip side, if Crede, Contreras and Quentin don't go down with season-ending injuries in 2008, this team could have and should have beaten Tampa Bay and may have given the Red Sox a run in the ALCS.

You think so? I thought the Rays were pretty superior, but I guess we'll never know.

GoGoCrede
06-06-2010, 01:16 PM
On the flip side, if Crede, Contreras and Quentin don't go down with season-ending injuries in 2008, this team could have and should have beaten Tampa Bay and may have given the Red Sox a run in the ALCS.

We had a losing record against Tampa that year, didn't we? It seemed like they pretty much owned us, especially in St. Pete.

palehozenychicty
06-06-2010, 01:18 PM
On the flip side, if Crede, Contreras and Quentin don't go down with season-ending injuries in 2008, this team could have and should have beaten Tampa Bay and may have given the Red Sox a run in the ALCS.

I don't think so. They were a better team than us, even with those guys, whose contributions are always inconsistent at best.

Brian26
06-06-2010, 01:19 PM
We had a losing record against Tampa that year, didn't we? It seemed like they pretty much owned us, especially in St. Pete.

The Sox were 4-6 against the Rays.

1-2 at home, 3-4 in TB. It was the year of the AJ runner's interference call too.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 01:29 PM
I don't think so. They were a better team than us, even with those guys, whose contributions are always inconsistent at best.

There was not much inconsistent about TCQ in 2008.

Brian26
06-06-2010, 01:30 PM
I don't think so. They were a better team than us, even with those guys, whose contributions are always inconsistent at best.

We're talking about the 2008 version of Quentin here. He was far from inconsistent. He was on pace to win the MVP or come in 2nd place before the silly wrist injury. He was our best offensive threat. It would be the same as taking Longoria or Pena out of the Rays lineup that season. Although Wise hit a fluke homer in his place, having TCQ in the playoff lineup over Wise or Swisher would have changed the entire complexion of the team.

Having Crede in the lineup over Uribe or Ramirez at that point would have been nice, as would having Contreras available to start instead of Vazquez.

Don't discount how good that Sox team was based on what's going on now. They won one game against Tampa Bay and could have easily won the series without the injuries.

Frater Perdurabo
06-06-2010, 02:33 PM
This is how to win in 2011:

Trade Paulie, AJ, Jenks, Putz, Linebrink, Pierre, Kotsay, Jones and Teahen this season. Fire Ozzie, Cora and Walker. Kick KW upstairs. Make Hahn GM. Hire Jeff Torborg as manager, Carlton Fisk as bench coach and Von Joshua as hitting coach.

Sign Adam Everett (SS), Carl Crawford (LF) and Paul Konerko (1B) to improve the defense, and sign Jon Rauch and Matt Guerrier to bolster the bullpen (and weaken the Twins).

Move Beckham back to third, Alexei back to second and Quentin to DH. Promote Danks (RF) and Lucy (C).

I'm not saying this is a realistic plan. But it is what I would do.

sox1970
06-06-2010, 02:37 PM
This is how to win in 2011:

Trade Paulie, AJ, Jenks, Putz, Linebrink, Pierre, Kotsay, Jones and Teahen this season. Fire Ozzie, Cora and Walker. Kick KW upstairs. Make Hahn GM. Hire Jeff Torborg as manager, Carlton Fisk as bench coach and Von Joshua as hitting coach.

Sign Adam Everett (SS), Carl Crawford (LF) and Paul Konerko (1B) to improve the defense, and sign Jon Rauch and Matt Guerrier to bolster the bullpen (and weaken the Twins).

Move Beckham back to third, Alexei back to second and Quentin to DH. Promote Danks (RF) and Lucy (C).

I'm not saying this is a realistic plan. But it is what I would do.

Starting with "hire Jeff Torborg", your post just got worse and worse.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 02:37 PM
Are you saying you don't think PK is a league average hitter at 1B?

His OPS is 6th behind Morneu, Cabrerra, Pujols, Youk and Votto. His OBP is 13th. His avg is 18th. He's 2nd in HRs and 7th in RBI.

I can't see how you'd argue that he isn't somewhere in the top 15 offensively... Am I misunderstanding you?.

Don't just look at two months of a contract year.

I've pointed this out so many times I can't believe there's anyone on here who hasn't looked at the numbers.

Paul is at best an average hitter for a first baseman.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 02:48 PM
Don't just look at two months of a contract year.

I've pointed this out so many times I can't believe there's anyone on here who hasn't looked at the numbers.

Paul is at best an average hitter for a first baseman.

If you look over his career, I don't see how you can call him average. How many guys have come and gone since PK has been a .280/.360/.500 hitter with about 30 HRs. He's not great. But can you really list 20 1B who you'd rather have than Paul today? How about over 10 years - 2000 - 2010? (and it has to be guys who played that entire stint - at 1B...

You may be right....I may be crazy....but who are these better guys that make him not AVERAGE.

Frater Perdurabo
06-06-2010, 03:04 PM
If you look over his career, I don't see how you can call him average. How many guys have come and gone since PK has been a .280/.360/.500 hitter with about 30 HRs. He's not great. But can you really list 20 1B who you'd rather have than Paul today? How about over 10 years - 2000 - 2010? (and it has to be guys who played that entire stint - at 1B...

You may be right....I may be crazy....but who are these better guys that make him not AVERAGE.

Overall he's above average. But he's also inconsistent, prone to season-long slumps (2003, 2008). From 2004-2006, he played like a great player, and he's had other stretches of greatness in other seasons (like April 2010).

jabrch
06-06-2010, 03:12 PM
Overall he's above average. But he's also inconsistent, prone to season-long slumps (2003, 2008). From 2004-2006, he played like a great player, and he's had other stretches of greatness in other seasons (like April 2010).


Agreed...

The OP said he wasn't even average at the dish. I can't buy that. I'm not the president of the PK fan club - but I am not going to say he is not average with the stick.

MetroPD
06-06-2010, 05:19 PM
If he only stole more bases like he used to he would be awesome again. Come on Paulie, kick over the tires and light fires, use that speed!

Noneck
06-06-2010, 06:10 PM
At his current salary, PK is a below average player.

Daver
06-06-2010, 06:25 PM
At his current salary, PK is a below average player.

How do you correlate salary v performance?

Red Barchetta
06-06-2010, 06:26 PM
This is how to win in 2011:

Trade Paulie, AJ, Jenks, Putz, Linebrink, Pierre, Kotsay, Jones and Teahen this season. Fire Ozzie, Cora and Walker. Kick KW upstairs. Make Hahn GM. Hire Jeff Torborg as manager, Carlton Fisk as bench coach and Von Joshua as hitting coach.

Sign Adam Everett (SS), Carl Crawford (LF) and Paul Konerko (1B) to improve the defense, and sign Jon Rauch and Matt Guerrier to bolster the bullpen (and weaken the Twins).

Move Beckham back to third, Alexei back to second and Quentin to DH. Promote Danks (RF) and Lucy (C).

I'm not saying this is a realistic plan. But it is what I would do.

..so part of your plan is to trade Paulie and then re-sign him as free agent?

As to the next hitting coach...I think we should try Frank Thomas. I never understood the value of hiring hitting coaches that at least didn't hit .280 over their career.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 06:38 PM
Agreed...

The OP said he wasn't even average at the dish. I can't buy that. I'm not the president of the PK fan club - but I am not going to say he is not average with the stick.

The Search function is your friend.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2479831&postcount=33

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2409347&postcount=47

SI1020
06-06-2010, 06:45 PM
..so part of your plan is to trade Paulie and then re-sign him as free agent?

As to the next hitting coach...I think we should try Frank Thomas. I never understood the value of hiring hitting coaches that at least didn't hit .280 over their career. Charlie Lau and Walt Hriniak? Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you'll be good at teaching it.

Noneck
06-06-2010, 06:48 PM
How do you correlate salary v performance?

If money was not an issue in the maintaining and building a club it wouldnt matter. But since it does matter, money spent should have value. The money spent on Paul doesn't have the same value as his contribution to the club at his position. Maybe that doesn't answer your question but is what I meant in my response.

Brian26
06-06-2010, 06:49 PM
As to the next hitting coach...I think we should try Frank Thomas. I never understood the value of hiring hitting coaches that at least didn't hit .280 over their career.

Those who can't, teach.

The best teachers aren't always good players. The best players aren't always good teachers.

Walt Hriniak (.253), Von Joshua (.273) and Charlie Lau (.255) are excellent examples.

GlassSox
06-06-2010, 06:55 PM
Save money.

Except for the fines from the EPA for air pollution

Daver
06-06-2010, 06:57 PM
The money spent on Paul doesn't have the same value as his contribution to the club at his position.


And this is based on what parameter?

Noneck
06-06-2010, 07:02 PM
And this is based on what parameter?
Based on this contribution to make the Sox a contending team.

Frater Perdurabo
06-06-2010, 07:13 PM
..so part of your plan is to trade Paulie and then re-sign him as free agent?

As to the next hitting coach...I think we should try Frank Thomas. I never understood the value of hiring hitting coaches that at least didn't hit .280 over their career.

Yes, because we'd get something back and be able to sign him at a lower salary on the open market than we would if we had to offer him arbitration.

Daver
06-06-2010, 07:14 PM
Based on this contribution to make the Sox a contending team.


So he is held accountable for the teams performance?

Noneck
06-06-2010, 07:17 PM
So he is held accountable for the teams performance?

Players, coaches and ownership should be held accountable for the teams success and failure.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 07:48 PM
Having Peavy on the Sox is not a travesty.

No kidding.
At his current contract, it absolutely is.

Dan H
06-06-2010, 07:55 PM
You don't see evidence of a plan?

This rotation should have been much better. If it was, we wouldn't see all the pissing and moaning since we'd be right in the thick of things.

You are right. The rotation should have been better and I saw the intent of building the team around pitching first. But the rotation hasn't performed, and the team needs to do something now that it hasn't. Secondly, I was more referring to the concept of just blowing things up. I don't like that term. Finally, the team isn't in the thick of anything, and it isn't surprising fans are pissed when the Sox have spent the first third of the season under .500. So you're right. If the White Sox start winning, everybody will stop moaning. So a message to the White Sox - start winning.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 09:25 PM
You are right. The rotation should have been better and I saw the intent of building the team around pitching first. But the rotation hasn't performed, and the team needs to do something now that it hasn't. Secondly, I was more referring to the concept of just blowing things up. I don't like that term. Finally, the team isn't in the thick of anything, and it isn't surprising fans are pissed when the Sox have spent the first third of the season under .500. So you're right. If the White Sox start winning, everybody will stop moaning. So a message to the White Sox - start winning.


There isn't much that can be done now - short of overreacting. I don't see how KW could do anything now that would make things measurably better in 2010. Do you?

And sending a message to the Sox to start winning - obviously I wish it worked that way. Management needs to put together a plan that is solid - I believe they did. And then the players need to execute. That, unfortunately, hasn't happened. I'm all for passing blame - to me it needs to go to the players.

gosox41
06-06-2010, 09:34 PM
Personally, I don't believe in blowing up a whole team at once, especially a team with talent that just isn't showing up for some reason. I see long-term repercussions for this team if it gets blown up. I don't want to endure 2-3 additional seasons of losing teams. I'll always be a Sox fan, but I'll have a hard time getting excited for games if I know the team is going to be bad heading into a season.

I'm not saying don't make any changes. There are a few players on this team I wouldn't be totally sad to see go. I just think blowing it up completely would push us into a deeper hole than we already are. Can anyone convince me otherwise?


I'm on the fence. Part of me is so frustrated and sick and tired of being bad for the last year and a half that I want to completely rebuild. And part of me thinks this team is a lot better then it has played this year.

The advantage of blowing it up is to free payroll for next year, get young talent for a crappy farm system and not having to bring back the same core to go through this again. At some point I (and other Sox fans) need to take off the rose colored glasses and realize that all the big names KW brings in don't mean a think when they underperform.

The advantage to keeping what is there is if you believe that Buehrle, Peave, Floyd, Beckham and TCQ can play like they have shown in the past. That's 20% of our roster and 60% of our starting pitching. In the duh statement of the day, if these guys revert back to their averages, this will be a much better team. Now why they are so bad right now is another question.

I will say that you'd think KW would do something to shake things up around there. Fire a coach, demote a struggling player, make a trade. I appreciate his patience for the team but maybe a fire does need to be lit.

Bob

gosox41
06-06-2010, 09:38 PM
Players, coaches and ownership should be held accountable for the teams success and failure.

They're all responsible, but when it comes down to it, it's the players who need to execute most. If players get offended when they hear the standard Krause "Players don't win championships, organizations do" then these guys should be downright embarassed and ashamed.

Not sure what JR, Ozzie, Coop, or KW can do to correct Buehrle (for example). Ultimately he needs to make his pitches. The only person that can help Buehrle of the bunch listed above is Coop. Is there something obivous that Coop is missing with Mark as well as Jake and Gavin? Or is it these guys not getting it done?

Bob

Frater Perdurabo
06-06-2010, 09:51 PM
Not sure what JR, Ozzie, Coop, or KW can do to correct Buehrle (for example). Ultimately he needs to make his pitches. The only person that can help Buehrle of the bunch listed above is Coop. Is there something obivous that Coop is missing with Mark as well as Jake and Gavin? Or is it these guys not getting it done?

Better defense would help the pitchers, especially those who pitch to contact and rely on their defense to make plays.

KW is the one who built a roster with too many poor fielders, and Ozzie is the one who plays too many poor fielders.

This is what could be done, with the current roster:

1. Teahen should not be put back on the field when he returns from his injury;

2. Quentin should DH;

3. Jones should play RF;

4. Vizquel/Nix play 3B;

5. Ozzie and Cora should run fielding drills to practice all aspects of fielding (throwing to the right base, turning double plays, run downs, hitting the cutoff man, proper techniques, etc.).

Regarding #5, some say it's not the job of an MLB manager/coaching staff to teach fundamentals. I say the most important part of the job is to prepare your players to succeed. If that means teaching and practicing fielding fundamentals, so be it.

gosox41
06-06-2010, 10:01 PM
Better defense would help the pitchers, especially those who pitch to contact and rely on their defense to make plays.

KW is the one who built a roster with too many poor fielders, and Ozzie is the one who plays too many poor fielders.

This is what could be done, with the current roster:

1. Teahen should not be put back on the field when he returns from his injury;

2. Quentin should DH;

3. Jones should play RF;

4. Vizquel/Nix play 3B;

5. Ozzie and Cora should run fielding drills to practice all aspects of fielding (throwing to the right base, turning double plays, run downs, hitting the cutoff man, proper techniques, etc.).

Regarding #5, some say it's not the job of an MLB manager/coaching staff to teach fundamentals. I say the most important part of the job is to prepare your players to succeed. If that means teaching and practicing fielding fundamentals, so be it.


I'm good with all 4 of your points. For number 5, I have heard stories of how Ramirez and Beckham have been coming in early to work with Cora. Not sure if anyone knows if any other players are putting in extra work. I would like to think that these guys have the motivation to take responsibility for their bad play but you never know.

Also, making the changes above make the Sox better, but I don't think the 3 SP's would be that much improved. And the improved defense wouldn't have make Beckham or TCQ hit better.


Bob

PhillipsBubba
06-06-2010, 10:02 PM
It would make the team better...how much worse can they be?

Red Barchetta
06-06-2010, 10:20 PM
Those who can't, teach.

The best teachers aren't always good players. The best players aren't always good teachers.

Walt Hriniak (.253), Von Joshua (.273) and Charlie Lau (.255) are excellent examples.

...and Greg Walker (.260) isn't an excellent example!

That's why I said "try". Anything is better than what we have now and I would love the see arguably the best hitter in White Sox history have a chance to teach his skills if he desires to coach. What's the worst thing that can happen; the SOX would be 9 games under .500 vs. 8 games? I'm glad you brought up Charlie Lau (.255) and Walt Hriniak (.253). The SOX did very well utilizing Lau's theory of hitting in the late 80s and early 90s that Hriniak later continued. Walker played during that era so he either can't teach or has abandoned everything he learned.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 10:21 PM
4. Vizquel/Nix play 3B;

5. Ozzie and Cora should run fielding drills to practice all aspects of fielding (throwing to the right base, turning double plays, run downs, hitting the cutoff man, proper techniques, etc.).


4. Vizquel should be flat out released and Nix is not a third baseman. They might as well bring up Morel; he's going to hit as well as either of the other two options.

5. Ozzie has no interest in teaching fundamentals, only talking about them. But Ozzie needs to be fired, right away, and Cora with him. That will go a long way toward making the team better the very next day.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 11:08 PM
4. Vizquel should be flat out released and Nix is not a third baseman. They might as well bring up Morel; he's going to hit as well as either of the other two options.

5. Ozzie has no interest in teaching fundamentals, only talking about them. But Ozzie needs to be fired, right away, and Cora with him. That will go a long way toward making the team better the very next day.
That's a lame excuse for ruining a prospect.

Crede24Thome25
06-06-2010, 11:25 PM
Torres and Hudson are the only two players on that list who should/could be called up thus far.
I'm not saying we call them up now, I'm referring to next year.

palehozenychicty
06-07-2010, 12:45 AM
We're talking about the 2008 version of Quentin here. He was far from inconsistent. He was on pace to win the MVP or come in 2nd place before the silly wrist injury. He was our best offensive threat. It would be the same as taking Longoria or Pena out of the Rays lineup that season. Although Wise hit a fluke homer in his place, having TCQ in the playoff lineup over Wise or Swisher would have changed the entire complexion of the team.

Having Crede in the lineup over Uribe or Ramirez at that point would have been nice, as would having Contreras available to start instead of Vazquez.

Don't discount how good that Sox team was based on what's going on now. They won one game against Tampa Bay and could have easily won the series without the injuries.

Not at all. They could've won, but Tampa was equally strong as well. If the Sox were at full strength, it's a coin flip at best. I still feel that Tampa was a better team overall, even with their bullpen shortcomings. They just had that magic.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 09:49 AM
Hudson, Danks, Mitchell, Flowers, Morel, Torres.

Hudson - Middle-to-lower half of the rotation pitcher

Danks - Good glove, cannot hit

Mitchell - Out for this year (obviously), probably shouldn't sniff the Majors until 2012 at earliest now.

Flowers - Bombing in AAA right now. 63 K in 186 PA. That's comically bad. You couldn't do that if you were trying to strike out every time you stepped to the plate.

Morel - Probably getting rushed.

Torres - Are you kidding me?

soltrain21
06-07-2010, 09:54 AM
Hudson - Middle-to-lower half of the rotation pitcher

Danks - Good glove, cannot hit

Mitchell - Out for this year (obviously), probably shouldn't sniff the Majors until 2012 at earliest now.

Flowers - Bombing in AAA right now. 63 K in 186 PA. That's comically bad. You couldn't do that if you were trying to strike out every time you stepped to the plate.

Morel - Probably getting rushed.

Torres - Are you kidding me?

it's really in an awful state.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 09:54 AM
You think so? I thought the Rays were pretty superior, but I guess we'll never know.

A healthy Quentin dramatically, dramatically changed the makeup of the offense in 2008. I think the Sox lost over a RPG pre-injury to post-injury, so I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that Sox team could have beaten Tampa. Honestly, I still think if Vazquez didn't have his typical Vazquez big-game ****fest in Game 1, we could have won the series without TCQ.

I think a lot of people undersell how good that team was because of how miserably bad the Sox have been since. But when they had all their cylinders clicking, they really were one of the better teams in the AL.

asindc
06-07-2010, 10:01 AM
What would it do? Hold some people to the accountibility they deserve. This is an organization that started declining in mid-2006 (and yes, that includes the 2008 team that just barely made the playoffs and then rolled over and died), with none of the key decision makers being punished or reprimanded. It always, always gets passed off to the players, and that just isn't fair. KW, Oz, Walker, even Coop and Cora...we haven't won despite amble financial resources, and it is time to find a new group that will find a way to win.

I say with due respect that it is bull**** that the players should not bear the responsibility for their poor play. There are several players on this team that are simply not playing anywhere near expectations, pitchers and hitters alike. It sucks that guaranteed contracts prevents the club from firing some of them, or at least reducing their salaries, but it is what it is. Firing someone for the poor performance of others is customary in sports, but more often than not it does not lead to better performance from those performing poorly to begin with. IF firing people other than the players would lead to more winning, then I'm all for it. I'd like to know who is available as replacements for the fired officials that would transform this bunch of underachievers into a team that plays as well as it is capable of.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-07-2010, 10:05 AM
Hudson - Middle-to-lower half of the rotation pitcher

Danks - Good glove, cannot hit

Mitchell - Out for this year (obviously), probably shouldn't sniff the Majors until 2012 at earliest now.

Flowers - Bombing in AAA right now. 63 K in 186 PA. That's comically bad. You couldn't do that if you were trying to strike out every time you stepped to the plate.

Morel - Probably getting rushed.

Torres - Are you kidding me?

Flowers came out and said that KW wanted him to try hitting "their way" and he was doing that, but he said it didn't work for him. He had to go back to hitting his way. That might explain a lot of the strikeouts.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100531&content_id=10653000&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

doublem23
06-07-2010, 10:11 AM
I say with due respect that it is bull**** that the players should not bear the responsibility for their poor play. There are several players on this team that are simply not playing anywhere near expectations, pitchers and hitters alike. It sucks that guaranteed contracts prevents the club from firing some of them, or at least reducing their salaries, but it is what it is. Firing someone for the poor performance of others is customary in sports, but more often than not it does not lead to better performance from those performing poorly to begin with. IF firing people other than the players would lead to more winning, then I'm all for it. I'd like to know who is available as replacements for the fired officials that would transform this bunch of underachievers into a team that plays as well as it is capable of.

That would certainly hold a lot more water if there weren't plenty of people who weren't wild about the makeup of this team going into the season. You're acting like it was common knowledge that the Sox were the runaway favorites in the Central division and just about everyone had them for a lock to win 90 games.

Obviously, the pitching staff has been a big letdown, I don't think anyone, even in their most cynical, wildest dreams could have envisioned a scenario in which the Sox starter ERA would be the worst in the American League. But this offense is performing about as well as a lot of people expected. There were plenty of question marks, and few of them have panned out. A winning philosophy isn't assembling a bunch of big risk guys and then throwing your arms up in the air saying, "well we tried," when they inevitably don't pan out.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Flowers came out and said that KW wanted him to try hitting "their way" and he was doing that, but he said it didn't work for him. He had to go back to hitting his way. That might explain a lot of the strikeouts.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100531&content_id=10653000&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Sounds like White Sox Player Development at its finest!

DirtySox
06-07-2010, 10:19 AM
Flowers came out and said that KW wanted him to try hitting "their way" and he was doing that, but he said it didn't work for him. He had to go back to hitting his way. That might explain a lot of the strikeouts.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100531&content_id=10653000&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Extremely small sample size, and no idea if he has gone back to his old more successful way of hitting, but he homered twice in the last 2 games and didn't K in either as well.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-07-2010, 10:25 AM
A healthy Quentin dramatically, dramatically changed the makeup of the offense in 2008. I think the Sox lost over a RPG pre-injury to post-injury, so I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that Sox team could have beaten Tampa. Honestly, I still think if Vazquez didn't have his typical Vazquez big-game ****fest in Game 1, we could have won the series without TCQ.

I think a lot of people undersell how good that team was because of how miserably bad the Sox have been since. But when they had all their cylinders clicking, they really were one of the better teams in the AL.

I truly don't ever think we will see that player again. I hope I am wrong, though.

DirtySox
06-07-2010, 10:26 AM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
Heard this from multiple executives: The White Sox have made it clear they are open for business, and ready to trade off parts (more) 3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/15636304014) via web

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
from what has been a very disappointing team. The perception of other teams is that Paul Konerko is available right now, and (more) 3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/15636363230) via web

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
as we know, Chicago GM Ken Williams is a deal-maker,someone who will move quickly -- as he did with the Contreras and Thome deals last fall. 2 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/15636418073) via web


__________________

Sell sell sell!

doublem23
06-07-2010, 10:32 AM
I truly don't ever think we will see that player again. I hope I am wrong, though.

Baseball is frustrating, that's for sure.

dwalteroo
06-07-2010, 10:39 AM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
Heard this from multiple executives: The White Sox have made it clear they are open for business, and ready to trade off parts (more) 3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/15636304014) via web

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
from what has been a very disappointing team. The perception of other teams is that Paul Konerko is available right now, and (more) 3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/15636363230) via web

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN)
as we know, Chicago GM Ken Williams is a deal-maker,someone who will move quickly -- as he did with the Contreras and Thome deals last fall. 2 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/15636418073) via web


At this point, I think the only guy of those mentioned as trade candidates I'd hate to see go is Paully, but that for sentimental reasons.

It's time to clean house.

russ99
06-07-2010, 10:55 AM
A winning philosophy isn't assembling a bunch of big risk guys and then throwing your arms up in the air saying, "well we tried," when they inevitably don't pan out.

That's what Kenny has done every year he's been here, and it's likely not by choice, either. The one time that actually worked, we won the title.

And don't say we have ample resources either. We have ample resources for a big-market .500 club - and the players have fallen short of that level anyway. We don't have a budget for a World Series contender.

Jerry should not get a free pass on the last offseason. You can't go out and get two big pieces to the puzzle in Rios and Peavy to open a window of contention and then close the cash register when we have glaring holes.

Does any of us really think Kenny would have acquired Jones, Kotsay, Teahen and Vizquel to hold down two positions if he were given free rein this offseason?

doublem23
06-07-2010, 11:01 AM
That's what Kenny has done every year he's been here, and it's likely not by choice, either. The one time that actually worked, we won the title.

And don't say we have ample resources either. We have ample resources for a big-market .500 club - and the players have fallen short of that level anyway. We don't have a budget for a World Series contender.

Jerry should not get a free pass on the last offseason. You can't go out and get two big pieces to the puzzle in Rios and Peavy to open a window of contention and then close the cash register when we have glaring holes.

Does any of us really think Kenny would have acquired Jones, Kotsay, Teahen and Vizquel to hold down two positions if he were given free rein this offseason?

What a crock of ****, Opening Day payroll was $103 M, higher than such teams like the Cardinals, Twins, Dodgers, Blue Jays, Braves, and Rays. The difference between them and us is a little bit of luck and a lot of competent on and off the field management.

I think you're little story about Jones/Kotsay, etc. loses a lot of credibility, too, when Jim Thome basically begged the Sox to sign him for next to nothing and they still preferred to start the season with their awesome DH platoon. You can blame JR for tightening the purse strings, true, but KW also has to know what kind of resources he has available to him. The Sox have had a payroll over $110 M once in their 110-year existence, so you really can't say Williams should have been stunned to find he would have to assemble a team on around $100 M for 2010. Anyone who has been paying attention to the Sox for more than a year or so could have seen that coming.

soltrain21
06-07-2010, 11:05 AM
That's what Kenny has done every year he's been here, and it's likely not by choice, either. The one time that actually worked, we won the title.

And don't say we have ample resources either. We have ample resources for a big-market .500 club - and the players have fallen short of that level anyway. We don't have a budget for a World Series contender.

Jerry should not get a free pass on the last offseason. You can't go out and get two big pieces to the puzzle in Rios and Peavy to open a window of contention and then close the cash register when we have glaring holes.

Does any of us really think Kenny would have acquired Jones, Kotsay, Teahen and Vizquel to hold down two positions if he were given free rein this offseason?


What in the **** are you talking about?

asindc
06-07-2010, 11:06 AM
That would certainly hold a lot more water if there weren't plenty of people who weren't wild about the makeup of this team going into the season. You're acting like it was common knowledge that the Sox were the runaway favorites in the Central division and just about everyone had them for a lock to win 90 games.

Obviously, the pitching staff has been a big letdown, I don't think anyone, even in their most cynical, wildest dreams could have envisioned a scenario in which the Sox starter ERA would be the worst in the American League. But this offense is performing about as well as a lot of people expected. There were plenty of question marks, and few of them have panned out. A winning philosophy isn't assembling a bunch of big risk guys and then throwing your arms up in the air saying, "well we tried," when they inevitably don't pan out.

No, my statement implies that the Sox would be competitive if most of the players were playing near there career norms, with one or two players playing above that and one of two players playing below that. That is what is reasonable to expect. It is not reasonable to have expected that TCQ, AJ, Alexei, Pierre, Teahen, and Beckham all hit below .220 for the first six weeks of the season at the same time. Heck, if they all had hit between .250 and .260 for the first six weeks of the season (still an unreasonably low expectation, but much closer to what they are all very capable of), this team would have more wins. I haven't even mentioned yet the three starters who have posted an ERA above 5 so far this year.

I said this several times during the offseason: If TCQ, AJ, Rios, and Pierre all play as horribly as a few have predicted, then no one that was available on the FA market would have made a difference. Rios, Pierre, Beckham, Jones, Kotsay, Teahen, Vizquel, Nix, and Castro are the offense/defense acquisitions that KW have made since the beginning of last season, at a time when the Sox was coming off of a division championship. Peavy, Garcia, Pena, Putz, and Williams are the pitching acquisitions. Some expressed disapproval of these moves when they were made. That is more than fair, of course. I look at it this way:

Rios replaced Swisher.
Pierre replaced Wise.
Beckham replaced Cabrera.
Jones replaced Thome.
Kotsay replaced Anderson.
Teahen replaced Crede.
Vizquel replaced Uribe.
Castro replaced Hall.
Nix replaced Ozuna.


Peavy replaced Vazquez.
Garcia replaced Contreras.
Pena replaced Carrasco.
Putz replaced Dotel.
Williams replaced Logan.

I didn't list all the players from the 2008 team that have been replaced, but I think my point is clear from the players named. Do I wish some of the moves had not been made? Yes. Am I glad that some were made? Absolutely. Do I think the majority of players replaced have been by someone better? Yes. That is why I point directly to the players' performance so far this year. With the exception of Beckham (2nd year player who was rushed, IMO, to the majors), nothing in the underperforming players' track record suggested that they would play this badly.

Every team has to account for one or two players playing below expectations. However, no team can expect to win more than they lose if six of its regulars play well below expectations for more than a month, while three of its five starters pitch well below expectations at the same time. Not one team in the majors will win with that happening.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-07-2010, 11:12 AM
That's what Kenny has done every year he's been here, and it's likely not by choice, either. The one time that actually worked, we won the title.

And don't say we have ample resources either. We have ample resources for a big-market .500 club - and the players have fallen short of that level anyway. We don't have a budget for a World Series contender.

Jerry should not get a free pass on the last offseason. You can't go out and get two big pieces to the puzzle in Rios and Peavy to open a window of contention and then close the cash register when we have glaring holes.

Does any of us really think Kenny would have acquired Jones, Kotsay, Teahen and Vizquel to hold down two positions if he were given free rein this offseason?

We don't? :scratch:

Well, Jones was a steal. That was an easy move. We got our money's worth already. The other one's I have no idea.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 11:20 AM
No, my statement implies that the Sox would be competitive if most of the players were playing near there career norms, with one or two players playing above that and one of two players playing below that. That is what is reasonable to expect. It is not reasonable to have expected that TCQ, AJ, Pierre, Teahen, and Beckham all hit below .220 for the first six weeks of the season at the same time. Heck, if they all had hit between .250 and .260 for the first six weeks of the season (still an unreasonably low expectation, but much closer to what they are all very capable of), this team would have more wins. I haven't even mentioned yet the three starters who have posted an ERA above 5 so far this year.

I said this several times during the offseason: If TCQ, AJ, Rios, and Pierre all play has horribly as a few have predicted, then no one that was available on the FA market would have made a difference. Rios, Pierre, Beckham, Jones, Kotsay, Teahen, Vizquel, Nix, and Castro are the offense/defense acquisitions that KW have made since the beginning of last season, at a time when the Sox was coming off of a division championship. Peavy, Garcia, Pena, Putz, and Williams are the pitching acquisitions. Some expressed disapproval of these moves when they were made. That is more than fair, of course. I look at it this way:

Rios replaced Swisher.
Pierre replaced Wise.
Beckham replaced Cabrera.
Jones replaced Thome.
Kotsay replaced Anderson.
Teahen replaced Crede.
Vizquel replaced Uribe.
Castro replaced Hall.
Nix replaced Ozuna.


Peavy replaced Vazquez.
Garcia replaced Contreras.
Pena replaced Carrasco.
Putz replaced Dotel.
Williams replaced Logan.

I didn't list all the players from the 2008 team that have been replaced, but I think my point is clear from the players named. Do I wish some of the moves had not been made? Yes. Am I glad that some were made? Absolutely. Do I think the majority of players replaced have been by someone better? Yes. That is why I point directly to the players' performance so far this year. With the exception of Beckham (2nd year player who was rushed, IMO, to the majors), nothing in the underperforming players' track record suggested that they would play this badly.

Every team has to account for one or two players playing below expectations. However, no team can expect to win more than they lose if six of its regulars play well below expectations for more than a month, while three of its five starters pitch well below expectations at the same time. Not one team in the majors will win with that happening.

And I still think your assessment of the Sox entering this year was a bit too lofty. I mean, what guys on the offense are really performing so horribly that it would have been impossible to predict? Quentin? People talk about him sometimes like his 2008 season was the standard over his career, not a complete aberration. The only thing surprising about his season so far is he hasn't gotten hurt yet. Beckham? 103 G under his belt entering this year, no surprise to see him struggle, especially with our worthless coaching staff. Pierzynski? Solid, consistent track record but it's not exactly Earth shattering for a mid-30s catcher to have the wheels fall off. Pierre? Plenty of reason to think he'd struggle, seeing as he hasn't been a good player for half a decade. Teahen, Jones, Kotsay? Garbage, garbage, and misused garbage.

I get that KW put all his chips in with the pitching staff and that has performed terribly, but any talk that the Sox were offensively well rounded is seriously flawed, IMHO. This was a team put together with the expressed understanding it would probably be mediocre, even if everything worked out perfectly. Add that we have a complete clown for a hitting coach who probably couldn't squeeze juice out of an orange, and, you know, it's not really a surprise to see them struggle this badly.

asindc
06-07-2010, 12:09 PM
And I still think your assessment of the Sox entering this year was a bit too lofty. I mean, what guys on the offense are really performing so horribly that it would have been impossible to predict? Quentin? People talk about him sometimes like his 2008 season was the standard over his career, not a complete aberration. The only thing surprising about his season so far is he hasn't gotten hurt yet. Beckham? 103 G under his belt entering this year, no surprise to see him struggle, especially with our worthless coaching staff. Pierzynski? Solid, consistent track record but it's not exactly Earth shattering for a mid-30s catcher to have the wheels fall off. Pierre? Plenty of reason to think he'd struggle, seeing as he hasn't been a good player for half a decade. Teahen, Jones, Kotsay? Garbage, garbage, and misused garbage.

I get that KW put all his chips in with the pitching staff and that has performed terribly, but any talk that the Sox were offensively well rounded is seriously flawed, IMHO. This was a team put together with the expressed understanding it would probably be mediocre, even if everything worked out perfectly. Add that we have a complete clown for a hitting coach who probably couldn't squeeze juice out of an orange, and, you know, it's not really a surprise to see them struggle this badly.

If you thought Quentin would OPS .712 this year (never performed this badly in any previous year), Pierre would OBP .318 this year (never performed this badly in any previous year), Teahen would OPS .727 (never performed this badly in any previous year, with the exception of 2008), AJ would OPS .584 (never performed this badly in any previous year), and Kotsay would OPS .644 (never performed this badly in any previous year, with the exception of his rookie year and the injured-filled 2007), then nothing KW could have done this offseason would have helped. If you replace---

Jones with Thome
Kotsay with Dye (or Swisher)
Teahen with Getz
Pierre with Damon

Then you still have---

Beckham
Quentin
Getz
Alexei
... with no Rios.

I'll leave it to you to speculate on how many more wins the Sox would have, leaving the current pitching numbers in place. Of course, it is difficult to determine how having these players in place would have impacted the rest of the lineup, since it is not as simple as taking out one player's numbers and plugging in another player's numbers. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume we can do that.

Working out perfectly so far would have had these players produce these numbers so far:

Quentin: .965 OPS (repeat of his best season)
Pierre: .347 OBP (career avg., since it is not reasonable to expect anything more at this stage of his career)
Teahen: .874 (repeat of his best season)
AJ: .747 (career avg., since it is not reasonable to expect anything more at this stage of his career)
Kotsay: .748 OPS (career avg., since it is not reasonable to expect anything more at this stage of his career)

... and two players you did not mention in your post:

Alexei: .792 OPS (repeat of his best season)
Beckham: .808 OPS (instead of the .526 he is posting so far this year)

This is what working out perfectly would look like. Actually, perfection would have Quentin, Teahen, and Alexei surpassing their career bests so far, given that they are all in their primes. All I expected were numbers within about 95% of their career norms, with a couple of players above that and a couple of players below that. I did not expect "perfection" across the board. Perfection is not what was needed for the Sox to be competitive. Just having most of our players playing as well as they are capable, just as Minny's and Detroit's rosters are doing, would be enough.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 12:31 PM
If you thought Quentin would OPS .712 this year (never performed this badly in any previous year), Pierre would OBP .318 this year (never performed this badly in any previous year), Teahen would OPS .727 (never performed this badly in any previous year, with the exception of 2008), AJ would OPS .584 (never performed this badly in any previous year), and Kotsay would OPS .644 (never performed this badly in any previous year, with the exception of his rookie year and the injured-filled 2007), then nothing KW could have done this offseason would have helped.

Quentin's OPS was .647 in about 1/2-season's worth in 2007 so it's not unprecedented for him to struggle. Again, I want him to succeed as badly as anyone else around here, but we need to stop talking about him like he's a proven commodity that routinely has MVP-type seasons. He wouldn't be the first player in history to have one fluke great year in an otherwise mediocre career.

I don't see why Teahen sucking is a shock, ooh his OPS has never been .727, but that's a whole 6 points under where he was last year. He's been on a consistent, downward trend since breaking out in 2006, so no, this isn't really that shocking. Plus, I know a lot of people thought the move to the Cell from Kauffman would aid him, but for the umpteenth million time, U.S. Cellular Field is not a hitter-friendly park, it is a HR-friendly park. Guys who can hit the longball play better here, guys with just gap power play worse. Short alleys, a small OF, and clean angles at the walls do not make this place a great place to play for guys who can't put the ball in the seats.

Pierre is just ****ing ****ty, so no, this doesn't really shock me either. OK, his OBP is .318 and that is generally lower than his career average, but really for the last 5 or so years, he's basically floated in the upper .320 range, anyway, so it's not like his production has fallen off a cliff.

AJ, I will give you, is the one guy who has really bottomed out this year, but again, he's a 33-year-old catcher. It's not exactly shocking.

I know a lot of guys are playing under what should be expected of them, but you're making it sound like they've all fallen off a cliff and in reality, that's just not the case. Yeah, they're struggling, but aside from AJ, it's nothing that remarkable. Guys Quentin and Beckham have definitely been disappointing, otherwise, Pierre, Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay, Teahen... These are just bad baseball players. That's just all there is to it.

You can draw up any number of scenarios in which the Sox might have performed better, but the bottom line is our roster is chock full of crap. That's why we're bad.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-07-2010, 12:38 PM
If you thought Quentin would OPS .712 this year (never performed this badly in any previous year), Pierre would OBP .318 this year (never performed this badly in any previous year), Teahen would OPS .727 (never performed this badly in any previous year, with the exception of 2008), AJ would OPS .584 (never performed this badly in any previous year), and Kotsay would OPS .644 (never performed this badly in any previous year, with the exception of his rookie year and the injured-filled 2007), then nothing KW could have done this offseason would have helped. If you replace---

It is NOT unreasonable to have expected Juan Pierre, a slappy, speedy guy that is known for running out infield hits to keep up his average, to suffer SOME decrease in speed and, therefore performance, at the age of 32. In fact, I would got so far as to say that the White Sox SHOULD HAVE expected some sort of drop-off.

Did he drop-off further than anyone could have expected? Maybe. But, if KW expected him to play EXACTLY to his career numbers, then he is a worse judge of talent that I thought. I would think KW expected a little drop-off. I think the bigger question is that if he expected a drop-off, is the money paid worth it?

khan
06-07-2010, 12:40 PM
No, my statement implies that the Sox would be competitive if most of the players were playing near there career norms, with one or two players playing above that and one of two players playing below that. That is what is reasonable to expect. It is not reasonable to have expected that TCQ, AJ, Alexei, Pierre, Teahen, and Beckham all hit below .220 for the first six weeks of the season at the same time.
I disagree. There are/were plausible reasons for each of these players having their early struggles:

TCQ: He's a career .250 hitter and a china doll. 2008 is an extreme anomaly, whether we like it or not. It is entirely possible that he just may not be that good.

AJ: He's a 33 year old catcher with more than 1200 games caught. The history of MLB is littered with 33 year old catchers that are/were finitu.

Ramirez: He's ALWAYS a slow starter. We should count on it, actually.

Pierre: He's 32, is switching to a more difficult league, and oh, BTW, hasn't been a STARTER, yet alone good at baseball, in years.

Teahen: He's a career backup. He's Mark DeRosa. He's adjusting to a new team and a new role. He has little-to-no monetary incentive to perform better, since KW stupidly gave him his obese contract.

Beckham: He had little-to-no track record on which some here based their irrationally-exuberant expectations on him. He could be in a sophomore slump. He could have been rushed. He could simply be a fraud. We don't know, because he HAS NO TRACK RECORD.

This team was put together with a lot of iffy propositions, backups-masquerading-as-starters, and youngsters with little track records. There was little-to-no margin for error. When I stated this during the offseason, the pollyannas bitched high and low that I was being overly negative. Unfortunately, I was right, and it gives me NO pleasure to state it as such.


To the OP's question:

Blowing up the team would allow KW to correct many of these [and other] mistakes. It could give the team a BETTER chance to compete in 2011 and beyond. It is the only logical course of action, IMO. This roster, and this ORGANIZATION, as currently comprised, is poorly-positioned to compete in 2010, 2011, or anytime soon, whether we like it or not.

asindc
06-07-2010, 12:52 PM
I did not ask it as a question in my previous post, so I will ask it here. If you replace---

Jones with Thome
Kotsay with Dye (or Swisher)
Teahen with Getz
Pierre with Damon

---how many more wins do you think the Sox would have with the everyone else on the current roster performing as well as they have so far? I'll even allow for idea that somehow KW could have acquired Rios if Swisher was still here.

asindc
06-07-2010, 12:55 PM
I disagree. There are/were plausible reasons for each of these players having their early struggles:

TCQ: He's a career .250 hitter and a china doll. 2008 is an extreme anomaly, whether we like it or not. It is entirely possible that he just may not be that good.

AJ: He's a 33 year old catcher with more than 1200 games caught. The history of MLB is littered with 33 year old catchers that are/were finitu.

Ramirez: He's ALWAYS a slow starter. We should count on it, actually.

Pierre: He's 32, is switching to a more difficult league, and oh, BTW, hasn't been a STARTER, yet alone good at baseball, in years.

Teahen: He's a career backup. He's Mark DeRosa. He's adjusting to a new team and a new role. He has little-to-no monetary incentive to perform better, since KW stupidly gave him his obese contract.

Beckham: He had little-to-no track record on which some here based their irrationally-exuberant expectations on him. He could be in a sophomore slump. He could have been rushed. He could simply be a fraud. We don't know, because he HAS NO TRACK RECORD.

This team was put together with a lot of iffy propositions, backups-masquerading-as-starters, and youngsters with little track records. There was little-to-no margin for error. When I stated this during the offseason, the pollyannas bitched high and low that I was being overly negative. Unfortunately, I was right, and it gives me NO pleasure to state it as such.


To the OP's question:

Blowing up the team would allow KW to correct many of these [and other] mistakes. It could give the team a BETTER chance to compete in 2011 and beyond. It is the only logical course of action, IMO. This roster, and this ORGANIZATION, as currently comprised, is poorly-positioned to compete in 2010, 2011, or anytime soon, whether we like it or not.

My point is not that it was unreasonable to expect some players to have a drop off, it is that it was unreasonable to expect so many players to have a dramatic drop off at the same time. As I noted in previous posts, I did not expect 100% from every player, but I also did not expect so many to play so poorly all at once. And judging from the pre-season predictions contest, almost no one on this board expected this as well.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 01:07 PM
I did not ask it as a question in my previous post, so I will ask it here. If you replace---

Jones with Thome
Kotsay with Dye (or Swisher)
Teahen with Getz
Pierre with Damon

---how many more wins do you think the Sox would have with the everyone else on the current roster performing as well as they have so far? I'll even allow for idea that somehow KW could have acquired Rios if Swisher was still here.

I can't tell you exactly how many wins those guys are worth, but that team would probably be a lot more fun to watch.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 01:08 PM
My point is not that it was unreasonable to expect some players to have a drop off, it is that it was unreasonable to expect so many players to have a dramatic drop off at the same time. As I noted in previous posts, I did not expect 100% from every player, but I also did not expect so many to play so poorly all at once. And judging from the pre-season predictions contest, almost no one on this board expected this as well.

Well yeah, but we're not paid baseball executives. No one is asking to fire the fans.

Paulwny
06-07-2010, 01:11 PM
My point is not that it was unreasonable to expect some players to have a drop off, it is that it was unreasonable to expect so many players to have a dramatic drop off at the same time. As I noted in previous posts, I did not expect 100% from every player, but I also did not expect so many to play so poorly all at once. And judging from the pre-season predictions contest, almost no one on this board expected this as well.


I think quite a few people expected a bad offensive team . Many of them may not have engaged very often in these discussions, fearing they'd be labeled as "dark clouds".
I'll agree that the vast majority never expected a melt down by the starting pitchers.

khan
06-07-2010, 01:19 PM
My point is not that it was unreasonable to expect some players to have a drop off, it is that it was unreasonable to expect so many players to have a dramatic drop off at the same time. As I noted in previous posts, I did not expect 100% from every player, but I also did not expect so many to play so poorly all at once.
To the point of the SPECIFIC players you cited, there are/were reasonable downside risks to each and every one of them. Do you disagree?

It is also "unreasonable" to term the early performances as "dramatic drop offs" in every case:

Again, Beckham may or may not be a fraud. We don't know for sure. Quentin is a career .250 hitter. His current level of production may actually reflect who he IS, not the miracle of 2008.

It is/was reasonable to EXPECT "dramatic drop offs" in players at some point in their careers:

AJ is an old man [in baseball terms]. His "dramatic drop off" is/was going to come at SOME point, as it does for EVERY player. [See: Dye, J. in the 2nd half of 2009 as an example.]

Pierre hasn't been a starter since EARLY in 2008. He is ALSO on the wrong side of 30, and switching for the first time in his career to the AL.

And judging from the pre-season predictions contest, almost no one on this board expected this as well.
I usually don't participate in these overestimating contests. After a few posts, most are about who can best inflate their expectations of the roster.

Foulke You
06-07-2010, 01:26 PM
I think quite a few people expected a bad offensive team . Many of them may not have engaged very often in these discussions, fearing they'd be labeled as "dark clouds".
I'll agree that the vast majority never expected a melt down by the starting pitchers.
They may have predicted a struggling offense but I don't think even the darkest of clouds could have predicted just how horrendous this offense would be this year. At one point in May we had five guys in the starting lineup hitting under .200. This is beyond even regular cynical Sox fans worst nightmare.

You are right about the starting pitching blind siding just about everyone though. Who could have predicted Buehrle and Peavy going into the tank? Floyd forgetting how to throw his curve ball? Danks struggling to escape the 5th inning of games? Freddy being our ace? I would have never believed it. Baseball is a tough game to figure out sometimes.

russ99
06-07-2010, 02:20 PM
What a crock of ****, Opening Day payroll was $103 M, higher than such teams like the Cardinals, Twins, Dodgers, Blue Jays, Braves, and Rays. The difference between them and us is a little bit of luck and a lot of competent on and off the field management.

I think you're little story about Jones/Kotsay, etc. loses a lot of credibility, too, when Jim Thome basically begged the Sox to sign him for next to nothing and they still preferred to start the season with their awesome DH platoon. You can blame JR for tightening the purse strings, true, but KW also has to know what kind of resources he has available to him. The Sox have had a payroll over $110 M once in their 110-year existence, so you really can't say Williams should have been stunned to find he would have to assemble a team on around $100 M for 2010. Anyone who has been paying attention to the Sox for more than a year or so could have seen that coming.

Look at Thome's numbers - he's not a cure-all in this situation. Fact is he's a 39 year old part-time player. Had he been brought back here, everyone would be all over Kenny for bringing him back.

Kenny himself said he had little to spend at the winter meetings and bought from the "used goods aisle" this offseason.

So while some of you love to play the blame game and need Kenny to take out your rage out on, there's really not much he could have done to get us a more competitive team this year. He took a gamble due to limited resources and lost.

soltrain21
06-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Look at Thome's numbers - he's not a cure-all in this situation. Fact is he's a 39 year old part-time player. Had he been brought back here, everyone would be all over Kenny for bringing him back.

Kenny himself said he had little to spend at the winter meetings and bought from the "used goods aisle" this offseason.

So while some of you love to play the blame game and need Kenny to take out your rage out on, there's really not much he could have done to get us a more competitive team this year. He took a gamble due to limited resources and lost.

That's because he went and got Jake Peavy and Alex Rios on huge contracts. The equivalent of signing two big free agents.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 02:26 PM
Look at Thome's numbers - he's not a cure-all in this situation. Fact is he's a 39 year old part-time player. Had he been brought back here, everyone would be all over Kenny for bringing him back.

Kenny himself said he had little to spend at the winter meetings and bought from the "used goods aisle" this offseason.

So while some of you love to play the blame game and need Kenny to take out your rage out on, there's really not much he could have done to get us a more competitive team this year. He took a gamble due to limited resources and lost.

Thome's not a cure-all, of course, but he was a pretty clear upgrade over what we had. Again, Kenny had little to spend this off-season because he handcuffed himself with the Peavy & Rios acquisitions. They're both fine players, but again, it's not like JR pulled the bag over Kenny's head and had him cut payroll by $20 M, in fact, payroll is up in 2010 and in the $100 M range that Williams should have expected. The fact that he had to fill his roster with spare parts is an indictment on the way he budgeted his payroll.

Spare me this pity party for KW. He's still got a Top 10 payroll (or really, really close) and he's assembled a team that can't beat the Cleveland ****ing Indians. I don't expect the Sox to be a dominant juggernaut a la the Yankees of the 1950s, but I do expect them to be moderately competitive, especially in their division, since they routinely spend the most money on payroll and easily have the most expensive tickets among us, the Tigers, Twins, Tribe, and Royals. No, he doesn't have an unlimited budget like a Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein, but he's still got resources available to him that 2/3 of the league would be envious of.

Red Barchetta
06-07-2010, 04:18 PM
Thome's not a cure-all, of course, but he was a pretty clear upgrade over what we had. Again, Kenny had little to spend this off-season because he handcuffed himself with the Peavy & Rios acquisitions. They're both fine players, but again, it's not like JR pulled the bag over Kenny's head and had him cut payroll by $20 M, in fact, payroll is up in 2010 and in the $100 M range that Williams should have expected. The fact that he had to fill his roster with spare parts is an indictment on the way he budgeted his payroll.

Spare me this pity party for KW. He's still got a Top 10 payroll (or really, really close) and he's assembled a team that can't beat the Cleveland ****ing Indians. I don't expect the Sox to be a dominant juggernaut a la the Yankees of the 1950s, but I do expect them to be moderately competitive, especially in their division, since they routinely spend the most money on payroll and easily have the most expensive tickets among us, the Tigers, Twins, Tribe, and Royals. No, he doesn't have an unlimited budget like a Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein, but he's still got resources available to him that 2/3 of the league would be envious of.

Well said. The SOX play in the only tier-1 city in their division. They could own this town if they would just figure out to consistently win their division or make it to the post season. When MLB switched from two divisions in each league to three divisions and wild card, JR was skipping in the streets. There is no way Chicago can't compete with Cleveland, Minneapolis, Detroit and Kansas City in terms of payroll.

...and the sharing the city with the Cubs excuse can't be played either. Look at the attendance in 2005/2006.

MisterB
06-07-2010, 05:55 PM
They could own this town if they would just figure out to consistently win their division or make it to the post season.

I remember when it was once said that if the Sox just won the World Series before the Cubs, that they'd own Chicago.

Ah, to be young and naive again...

Crestani
06-07-2010, 06:36 PM
All this talk about players, what is expected etc. and how they are producing, and I have to say that last year I said I hope TCQ doesn't become another Cory Snyder, (with a much weaker arm for those of you that remember)!

It just may be that is who he really is.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-08-2010, 09:14 AM
All this talk about players, what is expected etc. and how they are producing, and I have to say that last year I said I hope TCQ doesn't become another Cory Snyder, (with a much weaker arm for those of you that remember)!

It just may be that is who he really is.

I've been thinking that for several weeks now. 2008 may have just been an anomaly. Hell, he may have been on PEDs. We don't know. If you turn part of those home runs into deep fly ball outs, you have a little different looking season on your hand.

Slappy
06-09-2010, 03:08 PM
I don't disagree with blowing this team up, so to speak.

However, a nice start would be running the team/organization with some semblance of sanity and competence. I look at other teams and when their players are struggling, they act a lot more quickly and efficiently about it. ie, sending players to triple-A and so on. Alex Gordon, Max Scherzer are just two that come to mind, although there's many other examples.

It seems like Ozzie picks the worst times to use our backups (when we really really really need a win and/or something resembling a streak, or when just 'to get everyone some playing time') and then proceeds to not use them when rookie/unproven players are struggling mightily (Beckham and Quentin).

On top of that, I'm so sick of seeing Ozzie publicly complain about a family member getting snubbed by the organization, whether it be real or imagined. And I'm sick of this team, period. :whiner:

TomBradley72
06-09-2010, 04:52 PM
I remember when it was once said that if the Sox just won the World Series before the Cubs, that they'd own Chicago.

Ah, to be young and naive again...

Probably an asterisk to the "won Chicago" statement:

* Unless they are below .500 for 3 of 4 seasons.

The 2007-2010 White Sox ranking (9th) of total wins vs. the other AL teams looks alot like the Veeck era 1977-1980 (10th), or the Larry Himes era (10th), 1987-1990.

Take away all of our lingering memories and good will from 2005...and Guillen and KW would probably be gone by now....definitely after this season unless there's a dramatic turnaround.

mcsoxfan
06-09-2010, 11:18 PM
Something is definitely broken on this team. I remember earlier this season after Beuhrle was knocked around pretty hard and they took him out of the game. The next inning, the camera caught him in the dugout laughing and joking around with the other players.

I'm not saying this is Beurhle's fault and that he needs to pull a Zambrano on a defensless Gatorade cooler, however to me, that moment characterized this team.

Perhaps Ozzie is too much a player's manager. Perhaps he talks so much that the players have just tuned him out. Something needs to change, not sure what.

I do - OWNERSHIP

The Reinsdorf model produced a one-hit wonder in 2005. That's it, that's all. This team needs to undergo a philosophical change from their major to their minor leagues; The team needs to be managed by experienced championship builders - not by neophytes who hire other neophytes (see also, your Chicago Bulls and their latest hire - Reinsdorf can't help himself). Ownership has to be committed to explore every avenue to bring in talented players. That means paying for good scouts who are commissioned to search the global to find talent. It also means that you don't exclude yourself of a player's services because of his agent. A major market team like the Sox should always be mentioned as "in the running" for the top free agents. I don't think we would find ourselves moaning and groaning every year because of the product on the field. There are a lot of Sox fans especially on this site who adore Reinsdorf. Frankly, I loathe him. He threatened to move a charter member of the American League out of state, displayed colossal lack of vision in the construction of a stadium that was obsolete on delivery, actually helped turned the Cubs franchise around by firing the iconic Harry Caray and was the principal ringmaster of the 1994 disruption in play during a year where the Sox could have made some serious noise.

There never should have been a Kenny or a Ozzie because there never should have been a Reinsdorf. I would have taken my chances with the DeBartolo family. Didn't do to badly with the 49'ners. Veeck had no use for Reinsdorf, either. It practically killed Bill to hand over the keys to Reinsdorf. But Steinbrenner was afraid of the competition so he worked the backroom to get Reinsdorf and Einhorn in. Then a few years later referred to them as the Abbott and Costello of baseball. What a joke.

doublem23
06-09-2010, 11:24 PM
I do - OWNERSHIP

The Reinsdorf model produced a one-hit wonder in 2005. That's it, that's all. This team needs to undergo a philosophical change from their major to their minor leagues; The team needs to be managed by experienced championship builders - not by neophytes who hire other neophytes (see also, your Chicago Bulls and their latest hire - Reinsdorf can't help himself). Ownership has to be committed to explore every avenue to bring in talented players. That means paying for good scouts who are commissioned to search the global to find talent. It also means that you don't exclude yourself of a player's services because of his agent. A major market team like the Sox should always be mentioned as "in the running" for the top free agents. I don't think we would find ourselves moaning and groaning every year because of the product on the field. There are a lot of Sox fans especially on this site who adore Reinsdorf. Frankly, I loathe him. He threatened to move a charter member of the American League of out of state, displayed colossal lack of vision in the construction of a stadium that was obsolete on delivery, actually helped turned the Cubs franchise around by firing the iconic Harry Caray and was the principal ringmaster of the 1994 disruption in play during a year where the Sox could have made some serious noise.

There never should have been a Kenny or a Ozzie because there never should have been a Reinsdorf. I would have taken my chances with the DeBartolo family. Didn't do to badly with the 49'ners.

Will you shut up with this already. I asked before, but (SHOCKINGLY) got no answer.

The Sox have the #7 payroll in the MLB. They have the #2 payroll in the division. He's the only member of this organization pulling his weight.

Go back to screaming at the monsters in your head, though. It's still 1997 in there, I guess.

mcsoxfan
06-09-2010, 11:49 PM
Will you shut up with this already. I asked before, but (SHOCKINGLY) got no answer.

The Sox have the #7 payroll in the MLB. They have the #2 payroll in the division. He's the only member of this organization pulling his weight.

Go back to screaming at the monsters in your head, though. It's still 1997 in there, I guess.

Condensending and clever at the same time, be still my beating heart.
And their record at this moment is what, Jerry Jr??
It is YOU my friend who is delusional.
And you are by the way under no obligation to read or respond to my posts.
Everyone basically says the same thing on this site night after night, loss after loss - the Sox - they ain't so good.
And when I'm so compelled, I will continue to scream it from the rooftops that Reinsdorf's ownership has turned the Sox into a laughing stock.
But, perhaps you enjoy it. I don't.
And if I don't catch you by the end of the year - here's to a happy 1998!
This is a child's game - not life and death you silly goose.
Turn the Sox off and get a life.

doublem23
06-10-2010, 12:04 AM
And their record at this moment is what, Jerry Jr??
And how many times over .500 have they finished since 2005?
It is YOU my friend who is delusional.
And you are by the way under no obligation to read or respond to my posts.
And when I'm so compelled, I will continue to scream it from the rooftops that Reinsdorf-ownership has turned them into a running joke.
But, perhaps you enjoy it. I don't.

This might come as a shock to you, but the owner doesn't generally stick his nose in personnel decisions. Reinsdorf's got one job for this team, give KW the resources he needs to win and since 2005 he has MORE than fulfilled obligations. Since the World Series, the Sox are generally in the Top 10 of MLB payrolls and right around tops in the division.

If you want to rag on JR for being a cheapskate in the 90s or early 00s, fine. If you want to rag on because you think he's a little too loyal to some of the guys he employs, fine. But if you're laying the blame on him for the disappointing seasons we had in 2007, 2009, and now in 2010, I will ****ing call your dumbass bull**** out every single time. We're not losing because there's no money. We're losing because our front office is making ****ty moves, our coaches are idiots, and our players aren't performing on the field.

There's only one guy in this organization currently doing his job, and that's Jerry Reinsdorf.

Rdy2PlayBall
06-10-2010, 12:12 AM
We have the pieces to be a good team... but we can't rely on Quentin, PK, Jones, and Kotsay to make us any better for the next few years. I think we are going to have to find a replacement for PK, even if we keep him... and a backup plan for Quentin. We have to go into next season KNOWING what certain players will do. We need consistency.

I still can't believe how bad this team is doing... but I don't think an end of the year (too late) turn-around is out of the question. The pitching has to turn around... or we just have one big bust of a pitching staff, which I won't accept. They have to turn it around eventually.

Maybe next year this same exact team could do better, but I think the team needs a few KEY player changes... just to spark everyone. I don't know, this is just my opinion on the team this season. It's depressing, I don't even think the negative posters expected something this bad from this team. Though I am on the fire Ozzie bandwagon, his crap with his kid was the final straw with me. Nothing about him makes me want him to stay anymore. The Hawks are over, and I don't want the rest of my summer to be boring. :(

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2010, 12:18 AM
We have all the pieces to be a good team... (


I stopped reading right there :rolleyes:

doublem23
06-10-2010, 12:24 AM
Condensending and clever at the same time, be still my beating heart.
And their record at this moment is what, Jerry Jr??
It is YOU my friend who is delusional.
And you are by the way under no obligation to read or respond to my posts.
Everyone basically says the same thing on this site night after night, loss after loss - the Sox - they ain't so good.
And when I'm so compelled, I will continue to scream it from the rooftops that Reinsdorf's ownership has turned the Sox into a laughing stock.
But, perhaps you enjoy it. I don't.
And if I don't catch you by the end of the year - here's to a happy 1998!
This is a child's game - not life and death you silly goose.
Turn the Sox off and get a life.

This might come as a shock to you, but the owner doesn't generally stick his nose in personnel decisions. Reinsdorf's got one job for this team, give KW the resources he needs to win and since 2005 he has MORE than fulfilled obligations. Since the World Series, the Sox are generally in the Top 10 of MLB payrolls and right around tops in the division.

If you want to rag on JR for being a cheapskate in the 90s or early 00s, fine. If you want to rag on because you think he's a little too loyal to some of the guys he employs, fine. But if you're laying the blame on him for the disappointing seasons we had in 2007, 2009, and now in 2010, I will ****ing call your dumbass bull**** out every single time. We're not losing because there's no money. We're losing because our front office is making ****ty moves, our coaches are idiots, and our players aren't performing on the field.

There's only one guy in this organization currently doing his job, and that's Jerry Reinsdorf.

Nothing again?

PAINT ME SHOCKED.

Rdy2PlayBall
06-10-2010, 12:26 AM
I stopped reading right there :rolleyes:Well, if Beckham, Quentin, Peavy, Floyd, Buehrle, AJ, Bobby, and Teahen were all playing like they should/could be... we do. I never said we were good... but we definetly have a team that should be at or over .500 right now.

Did you think we would be 9 1/2 back in June?

October26
06-10-2010, 07:11 AM
Did you think we would be 9 1/2 back in June?

Absolutely not and very disappointed in the way that our White Sox have played so far this year.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 08:19 AM
Well, if Beckham, Quentin, Peavy, Floyd, Buehrle, AJ, Bobby, and Teahen were all playing like they should/could be... we do. I never said we were good... but we definetly have a team that should be at or over .500 right now.

Did you think we would be 9 1/2 back in June?
In other words: if everything goes right.

SI1020
06-10-2010, 08:41 AM
This might come as a shock to you, but the owner doesn't generally stick his nose in personnel decisions. Reinsdorf's got one job for this team, give KW the resources he needs to win and since 2005 he has MORE than fulfilled obligations. Since the World Series, the Sox are generally in the Top 10 of MLB payrolls and right around tops in the division.

If you want to rag on JR for being a cheapskate in the 90s or early 00s, fine. If you want to rag on because you think he's a little too loyal to some of the guys he employs, fine. But if you're laying the blame on him for the disappointing seasons we had in 2007, 2009, and now in 2010, I will ****ing call your dumbass bull**** out every single time. We're not losing because there's no money. We're losing because our front office is making ****ty moves, our coaches are idiots, and our players aren't performing on the field.

There's only one guy in this organization currently doing his job, and that's Jerry Reinsdorf. It's his management team isn't it?

asindc
06-10-2010, 09:40 AM
In other words: if everything goes right.

I noticed in his post that he did not mentioned Jones, Pierre, Linebrink, Alexei, or Kotsay, so I don't think he meant if everything went right.

Smokey Burg
06-10-2010, 10:09 AM
I'm not in favor of completely blowing this team up. On paper, the Sox should be competitive. Theoretically, the starting rotation should be as good as any in baseball. Obviously, the boys haven't performed as they should/could. One extremely obvious deficiency is the primary dh. As of this morning Kotsay had a .206 BA, 16 RBI, and 6 HR. For a dh, this is pathetic, might as well let the pitchers try and hit. The season is about a third over and we have a dh who is on course to put in 50 RBI!!! Unforgiveable! If Kenny can only get a couple packages of hot dogs and buns in trade for this guy, I'd consider that an effective trade. If the Sox do anything over the next couple weeks, I hope they start with allowing Kotsay to find his purpose in life.

doublem23
06-10-2010, 10:11 AM
It's his management team isn't it?

And coming into this season, they had a pretty good track record. In the past 5 years entering this year they've produced a World Series Title, 2 division championships, and 2 90-win seasons. Forget the Sox, that's a great 5-year-run for any team sans the Yankees and maybe the Red Sox.

A lot of the moves they've made over the past 12 months or so have backfired, but it's not because they were really hamstrung by the budget. Reinsdorf's opened his wallet and allowed KW and his staff to spend, spend, spend. They're just not doing a terribly good job of it.

khan
06-10-2010, 10:27 AM
Well, if Beckham, Quentin, Peavy, Floyd, Buehrle, AJ, Bobby, and Teahen were all playing like they should/could be... we do. I never said we were good... but we definetly have a team that should be at or over .500 right now.

Did you think we would be 9 1/2 back in June?
So you're holding onto this fantasy that IF:

1. The youngster with ONLY 100 MLB games [and less than 1 year in professional baseball of ANY kind] performed up to some imaginary standard, and IF

2. The career .250 hitter who ALWAYS gets hurt repeated the anomaly that was 2008, and IF

3. The recently-injured pitcher who did better in the massive park in the little-boy NL magically overcame his obstacles in a small park in the BIG BOY AL, and IF

4. The young pitcher who's inconsistent, and has little motivation to perform, due to his contract and a lack of competition in the pitching staff performed up to some artificial standard, and IF

5. The now-TEN YEAR veteran with a ****-ton of innings on his arm and who finished off 2009 performing poorly somehow got the magic back, and IF

6. The 33 year old catcher with more than 1200 games caught somehow reported to camp as the 28 year old he was in 2005, and IF

7. The closer who had been on a downward spiral since 2008 magically reversed this trend, and IF

8. The ****ty backup from the ****tiest team in the ****tiest division in the AL magically became a solid 3rd baseman,

THEN the SOX should have been competitive?


That's a lot of "IFs." "IF" is not a plan. "IF" is a hope.

Honestly, I don't see a lot of underperformers in the roster. I see a lot of "IFs."

asindc
06-10-2010, 10:35 AM
So you're holding onto this fantasy that IF:

1. The youngster with ONLY 100 MLB games [and less than 1 year in professional baseball of ANY kind] performed up to some imaginary standard, and IF

2. The career .250 hitter who ALWAYS gets hurt repeated the anomaly that was 2008, and IF

3. The recently-injured pitcher who did better in the massive park in the little-boy NL magically overcame his obstacles in a small park in the BIG BOY AL, and IF

4. The young pitcher who's inconsistent, and has little motivation to perform, due to his contract and a lack of competition in the pitching staff performed up to some artificial standard, and IF

5. The now-TEN YEAR veteran with a ****-ton of innings on his arm and who finished off 2009 performing poorly somehow got the magic back, and IF

6. The 33 year old catcher with more than 1200 games caught somehow reported to camp as the 28 year old he was in 2005, and IF

7. The closer who had been on a downward spiral since 2008 magically reversed this trend, and IF

8. The ****ty backup from the ****tiest team in the ****tiest division in the AL magically became a solid 3rd baseman,

THEN the SOX should have been competitive?


That's a lot of "IFs." "IF" is not a plan. "IF" is a hope.

Honestly, I don't see a lot of underperformers in the roster. I see a lot of "IFs."

Since you think there were a lot of IFs on this roster at the beginning of this season, were you advocating for KW and/or Ozzie to be fired, or at least have this team blown up then?

khan
06-10-2010, 10:41 AM
Since you think there were a lot of IFs on this roster at the beginning of this season, were you advocating for KW and/or Ozzie to be fired, or at least have this team blown up then?

I was advocating for the team to have a larger margin for error. Because there are/were REAL downside risks in this roster. There are/were REAL downside risks in not having anything in the minor league system.

I was against wasting 2 MLB-quality pitchers, AND some $8M on a backup OF from the National League.

For that matter, I was against using backups to play starters' roles, such as Teahen @ 3rd Base and Pierre as a starting LF.

I was against NOT having a 3rd LH reliever, either in Chicago, or ready-to-go in Charlotte. This, as a hedge against ineffectiveness/injury by either of Williams or Thornton, AND as a degree of competition as well.

I was against NOT having a long reliever, as a hedge against ineffectiveness/injury by any of the SPs, and as a degree of competition for the 5 SPs.

I was against letting Ozzie have too much influence in the composition of this team, since he sucks at judging talent.


So yeah, during the offseason, when the pollyannas were bitching high and low about the supposed "negativity" of those that saw risks in the roster, I was against much of what the team put together.

Dibbs
06-10-2010, 10:48 AM
Since you think there were a lot of IFs on this roster at the beginning of this season, were you advocating for KW and/or Ozzie to be fired, or at least have this team blown up then?

I know I was. I predicted this team at 79-81 wins tops, only because I thought the staff would be pretty good. I am now guessing 69-71 wins. I thought it was delusional with all of the 87-89 win predictions that were out there. Where is that prediction thread hiding again?

SI1020
06-10-2010, 10:58 AM
I went for 85 and felt a little foolish in doing so. In my heart of hearts this did not look anything like a playoff contending team to me.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2010, 11:01 AM
Did you think we would be 9 1/2 back in June?

No I did not. But I did not have too much confidence they would contend from day 1.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 11:20 AM
In other words: if everything goes right.

How about if everything goes normal?

And again, if one or even two of those guys were in a funk that would be on thing but this whole team has melted down.

I asked this question of doub a week ago or so and got no answer, so I'll try asking you.

You were one of the biggest critics this offseason. Did you think this team would be this bad this fast? Note I asked would not could.

Were your expectations for all these players to produce well below career norms and for the team to be this far back and this far under by now or have they underperformed even your meager expectations?

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 11:22 AM
I know I was. I predicted this team at 79-81 wins tops, only because I thought the staff would be pretty good. I am now guessing 69-71 wins. I thought it was delusional with all of the 87-89 win predictions that were out there. Where is that prediction thread hiding again?

It's stuck in the PTC forum.

Thanks for admitting the team is playing worse than even you expected. I doubt there were many people who expected everything that has gone wrong so far.

asindc
06-10-2010, 11:56 AM
I was advocating for the team to have a larger margin for error. Because there are/were REAL downside risks in this roster. There are/were REAL downside risks in not having anything in the minor league system.

Agreed.

I was against wasting 2 MLB-quality pitchers, AND some $8M on a backup OF from the National League.

I find it interesting that you think Peavy coming over from the "little boy NL," as you put it, to the "big boy AL" was a risky move, but have no problem stating that John Ely and Jon Link are "MLB-quality pitchers" by virtue of them having pitched 51 innings and 4.1 innings respectively in a "massive park" in that same "little boy NL," as opposed to the 20 innings that Peavy pitched in the "big boy AL" last year.

For that matter, I was against using backups to play starters' roles, such as Teahen @ 3rd Base and Pierre as a starting LF.

Comments like this lead me to believe that some Sox fans would prefer to have Brandon Inge, Brendon Harris, or Nick Punto playing 3rd for the Sox.

I was against NOT having a 3rd LH reliever, either in Chicago, or ready-to-go in Charlotte. This, as a hedge against ineffectiveness/injury by either of Williams or Thornton, AND as a degree of competition as well.

I agree with you there, especially about the "ready-to-go in Charlotte" part, but I'm guessing Ron Mahay was not available.

I was against NOT having a long reliever, as a hedge against ineffectiveness/injury by any of the SPs, and as a degree of competition for the 5 SPs.

Agreed. I wanted them to keep Carrasco.

So yeah, during the offseason, when the pollyannas were bitching high and low about the supposed "negativity" of those that saw risks in the roster, I was against much of what the team put together.

If the Pierre trade is not made, the Peavy trade is not made, Damon is signed and playing LF, Thome is signed and playing DH, Teahen is not traded for and Beckham is playing 3rd with Getz playing 2nd, Carrasco is kept, an available LH reliever is signed instead of Williams, and maybe Jenks is traded after the 2008 season and Thornton is made the closer, the roster would look something like this:

C: AJ (The "33 year old catcher with more than 1200 games caught")
1B: Pauly
2B: Getz
3B: Beckham (The "youngster with ONLY 100 MLB games [and less than 1 year in professional baseball of ANY kind]")
SS: Alexei
LF: Damon
CF: Rios
RF: Quentin (The "career .250 hitter who ALWAYS gets hurt")
DH: Thome

Bench: Kotsay, Nix, Castro.

SP: Buehrle (The "now-TEN YEAR veteran with a ****-ton of innings on his arm and who finished off 2009 performing poorly")
SP: Danks
SP: Floyd (The "young pitcher who's inconsistent, and has little motivation to perform, due to his contract and a lack of competition in the pitching staff")
SP: Richard
SP: Hudson (or maybe Pavano... who knows)

RP: Linebrink
RP: Pena
RP: available LH (Ron Mahay? Randy Choate? Boone Logan?)
RP: Carrasco
RP: Santos
RP: Putz
RP: Thornton

Still in farm system: Ely, Link, Fields, Dexter Carter, and Aaron Poreda.


If everyone on this roster was performing at their current levels, how much better would the Sox record be if the roster looked like this? How much would the payroll be?

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 12:15 PM
How about if everything goes normal?

And again, if one or even two of those guys were in a funk that would be on thing but this whole team has melted down.

I asked this question of doub a week ago or so and got no answer, so I'll try asking you.

You were one of the biggest critics this offseason. Did you think this team would be this bad this fast? Note I asked would not could.

Were your expectations for all these players to produce well below career norms and for the team to be this far back and this far under by now or have they underperformed even your meager expectations?
I did not believe this team would compete in April, May, June, July, August or September. I am not surprised they are this bad -- I expected better, but not much.

The pitching staff was never a sure thing -- only with a better defense and a better ace than Peavy (or at least a better ballpark for Jake).

What you deem "normal," I call dreamland. There was no margin for error. This team had to be 2005 on steroids to compete in an okay division.

Did you really expect Jonesay to be better? Jenks to be better? Pierre to be better? Ramirez to be better? Teahen to be better?

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 12:43 PM
I did not believe this team would compete in April, May, June, July, August or September. I am not surprised they are this bad -- I expected better, but not much.

The pitching staff was never a sure thing -- only with a better defense and a better ace than Peavy (or at least a better ballpark for Jake).

What you deem "normal," I call dreamland. There was no margin for error. This team had to be 2005 on steroids to compete in an okay division.

Did you really expect Jonesay to be better? Jenks to be better? Pierre to be better? Ramirez to be better? Teahen to be better?

Jenks and Jones I was taking a wait and see approach with. I thought the reports that Jenks stopped drinking and had lost weight made it likely he'd have a rebound season.

Yes, I thought Pierre would hit better in April. He has lived up to my expectations since then though. Ramirez is a notoriously slow starter, so what's going on with him isn't shocking. He's been coming on since the weather warmed up and should finish the season in line with what I thought he'd bring offensively and defensively. I thought there was a chance that Teahen would.

What about Buehrle and Floyd? Did you expect them to struggle as much as they have? Those two guys are as big a part of the craptastic start as any offensive player, Heck, Peavy too. When any team's 1,2,4 pitchers are a combined 9-17 with a 5.82 ERA the lack of offensive production or the fact the closer has struggled seem kind of secondary.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Jenks and Jones I was taking a wait and see approach with. I thought the reports that Jenks stopped drinking and had lost weight made it likely he'd have a rebound season.

Yes, I thought Pierre would hit better in April. He has lived up to my expectations since then though. Ramirez is a notoriously slow starter, so what's going on with him isn't shocking. He's been coming on since the weather warmed up and should finish the season in line with what I thought he'd bring offensively and defensively. I thought there was a chance that Teahen would.

What about Buehrle and Floyd? Did you expect them to struggle as much as they have? Those two guys are as big a part of the craptastic start as any offensive player, Heck, Peavy too. When any team's 1,2,4 pitchers are a combined 9-17 with a 5.82 ERA the lack of offensive production or the fact the closer has struggled seem kind of secondary.
Peavy: bad, not this bad.
Buehrle: expected more.
Floyd: same as Burls.

Let me put it this way: a better offense might help neutralize those 3.

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 01:31 PM
Peavy: bad, not this bad.
Buehrle: expected more.
Floyd: same as Burls.

Let me put it this way: a better offense might help neutralize those 3.

Would have helped a bit, but put it this way, if the entire team had their ERA, the Sox would be on a pace to yield ~1000 runs this year. As it is they are on pace to yield ~800. Now we can complain about the offense all we want, but I find it hard to believe that anyone thought the pitching (especially the starters) would be this bad for this long.

khan
06-10-2010, 01:34 PM
I find it interesting that you think Peavy coming over from the "little boy NL," as you put it, to the "big boy AL" was a risky move, but have no problem stating that John Ely and Jon Link are "MLB-quality pitchers"
See, they'd either be in the minors for the SOX, thus remaining an asset to use later, or they'd be in the SOX pitching staff. In either case, Ely & Link were a GROSS overpayment for Pierre. Were there other suitors for Pierre or Pods?

I don't remember, but then, I rather doubt it.

Comments like this lead me to believe that some Sox fans would prefer to have Brandon Inge, Brendon Harris, or Nick Punto playing 3rd for the Sox.
Actually, I'd rather that they took the money wasted on Pierre & Teahen and actually sought a real 3rd baseman.

I agree with you there, especially about the "ready-to-go in Charlotte" part, but I'm guessing Ron Mahay was not available.
Odd, Ron Mahay signed a minor league deal....


[SNIP!]
2B: Getz
DH: Thome
These two combined make less than Teahen. IF USED PROPERLY, [this means V. RHP ONLY], Thome remains a great asset, particularly at the price.

Meanwhile, Getz could remain as a hedge vs. Beckham or Ramirez struggling or getting injured, AT A MUCH-LOWER PRICE than Abuelo Omar.


Still in farm system: Ely, Link
See, these two pieces would have served as a hedge against underperformance, OR as assets to move for other pieces. They may not have made the SOX big league club.

But I can tell you this: The pollyannas were running their pie holes about "adding a piece at the deadline," but without tradable pieces, it was never going to happen. Whether Ely/Link are AL-quality or not is debatable. But clearly, they are [at a minimum] MLB-quality.

As an aside, an easy way to tell if a trade was equitable is to reverse it: Would I take 2 MLB-quality pitchers, AND cash for Pierre? HELL yeah I would. In a freakin' heartbeat. [But it won't happen anytime soon.]

Would I take back Poreda, et. al for Peavy? I'm not too sure, YET.


If everyone on this roster was performing at their current levels, how much better would the Sox record be if the roster looked like this?
They may or may not have been better. They might have been able to sign better FAs in this past offseason. But then, KW would have a few more pieces to trade the team into contention.

KW would also have much more financial flexibility to do some things to keep the team relevant for 2010, IMO.

How much would the payroll be?
Lower than it is now, that's for sure.

RCWHITESOX
06-10-2010, 01:57 PM
Jenks and Jones I was taking a wait and see approach with. I thought the reports that Jenks stopped drinking and had lost weight made it likely he'd have a rebound season.

Yes, I thought Pierre would hit better in April. He has lived up to my expectations since then though. Ramirez is a notoriously slow starter, so what's going on with him isn't shocking. He's been coming on since the weather warmed up and should finish the season in line with what I thought he'd bring offensively and defensively. I thought there was a chance that Teahen would.

What about Buehrle and Floyd? Did you expect them to struggle as much as they have? Those two guys are as big a part of the craptastic start as any offensive player, Heck, Peavy too. When any team's 1,2,4 pitchers are a combined 9-17 with a 5.82 ERA the lack of offensive production or the fact the closer has struggled seem kind of secondary.

Your right on target. Who would have ever expected to See Buehrle, Floyd, and Peavy pitch so poorly. Even though Danks has for the most part pitched effectively he still has been a 5 or 6 inning guy. Heck Garcia has been by far the most reliable starter. Put that together with a below average defense and poor offensive production; with the exception of Konerko, Rios, and Pierre and this is what you get 25 wins and 33 losses.
I say if they can't resign Danks trade him. Look for help at 3B and DH. Move Buehrle, AJ, and Konerko if they can bring needed talent. I would not blow up this team; but moving Jones, Kotsay, Teahan, Nix and etc. won't get you much. I'd also look into moving Jenks Or Thornton and move Putz to the closers role.

asindc
06-10-2010, 02:58 PM
See, they'd either be in the minors for the SOX, thus remaining an asset to use later, or they'd be in the SOX pitching staff. In either case, Ely & Link were a GROSS overpayment for Pierre. Were there other suitors for Pierre or Pods?

I don't remember, but then, I rather doubt it.


Actually, I'd rather that they took the money wasted on Pierre & Teahen and actually sought a real 3rd baseman.


Odd, Ron Mahay signed a minor league deal....



These two combined make less than Teahen. IF USED PROPERLY, [this means V. RHP ONLY], Thome remains a great asset, particularly at the price.

Meanwhile, Getz could remain as a hedge vs. Beckham or Ramirez struggling or getting injured, AT A MUCH-LOWER PRICE than Abuelo Omar.



See, these two pieces would have served as a hedge against underperformance, OR as assets to move for other pieces. They may not have made the SOX big league club.

But I can tell you this: The pollyannas were running their pie holes about "adding a piece at the deadline," but without tradable pieces, it was never going to happen. Whether Ely/Link are AL-quality or not is debatable. But clearly, they are [at a minimum] MLB-quality.

As an aside, an easy way to tell if a trade was equitable is to reverse it: Would I take 2 MLB-quality pitchers, AND cash for Pierre? HELL yeah I would. In a freakin' heartbeat. [But it won't happen anytime soon.]

Would I take back Poreda, et. al for Peavy? I'm not too sure, YET.



They may or may not have been better. They might have been able to sign better FAs in this past offseason. But then, KW would have a few more pieces to trade the team into contention.

KW would also have much more financial flexibility to do some things to keep the team relevant for 2010, IMO.


Lower than it is now, that's for sure.

Salaries for players you mentioned, plus Johnny Damon and Adrian Beltre, who was the only "real" 3rd baseman on the market this year:


Beltre (31 yrs. old): 1 yr., $10 million, with 2nd yr. player option for $5 million or take $1 million on buyout. (Guess which option he'll take?)

Damon (36): 1 yr., $8 million, with no-trade clause.

Podsednik (34): 1 yr., $1.75 million, with club option for 2nd yr. that Pods can buyout for $100,000.

Pierre (32): 2 yrs., $3 mil. 1st yr., $5 mil. 2nd yr. John Ely and Jon Link traded (keep in mind that the Sox got cash along with the deal, not the other way around).

Teahen (28): 3 yrs., $3.75 million, $4.75 mil., and $5.5 mil. Chris Getz and Josh Fields traded.


If Beltre and Damon are acquired instead of Teahen and Pierre this year would look like this:

$18 million for Beltre/Damon, instead of $6.75 million for Teahen/Pierre. (The alternative is Beltre/Pods for $11.75 mil. if you think KW could have acquired Pods for the same price as KC did. If he could have, then I'm just as critical as you might be for the Pods/Pierre scenario from this offseason, believe me.)

I don't know if KW was authorized to take the payroll an extra $11.25 mil. or $5 mil. higher, but if he was and just decided not to do so, then I would call for his firing as well. I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis.

At any rate, based on looking at adding Beltre/Damon or Beltre/Pods, instead of Teahen/Pierre, the payroll would be signficantly higher than it is now, but on the other hand we would still have Josh Fields, Chris Getz, John Ely, and Jon Link in the organization. That's not including the $1.5 mil. Thome got instead of the $500K Jones got. By the way, you said this about the team's finances back in January:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2409500&postcount=11

voodoochile
06-10-2010, 03:06 PM
Speaking of Pods, anyone notice he's fallen off the map since his redhot start? Where are all the people bitching about letting him walk now?

khan
06-10-2010, 03:21 PM
Beltre (31 yrs. old): 1 yr., $10 million, with 2nd yr. player option for $5 million or take $1 million on buyout. (Guess which option he'll take?)

Damon (36): 1 yr., $8 million, with no-trade clause.
Why do you assume that it would be these two players? Why not Glaus @ $1.75M? Why not Chad Tracy @ MLB min? Why not Vlad?

It isn't "JUST" the fact that Teahen isn't very good at baseball. It's the fact that Teahen isn't very good at baseball, AND is very expensive as well.

Podsednik (34): 1 yr., $1.75 million, with club option for 2nd yr. that Pods can buyout for $100,000.

Pierre (32): 2 yrs., $3 mil. 1st yr., $5 mil. 2nd yr. John Ely and Jon Link traded.

1. Cots has Pierre @ $10M for 2010 and $8.5M for 2011. LAD did send some money, but they didn't send $7M for 2010 and $3.5M for 2011.

2. Pods @ $1.75M, PLUS Link/Ely sound pretty good right about now.

Teahen (28): 3 yrs., $3.75 million, $4.75 mil., and $5.5 mil. Chris Getz and Josh Fields traded.
Getz @ MLB min sounds a hell of a lot better than Teahen at his obese contract. Troy Glaus @ $1.75M over one year sounds better than Teahen at his obese contract. Hell, Melvin ****ing Mora @ $1.25M for 1 year sounds better than Teahen at his obese contract.

If Beltre and Damon are acquired instead of Teahen and Pierre this year would look like this:

$18 million for Beltre/Damon, instead of $6.75 million for Teahen/Pierre. (The alternative is Beltre/Pods for $11.75 mil. if you think KW could have acquired Pods for the same price as KC did. If that is true, then I'm just as critical as you might be for the Pods/Pierre scenario from this offseason, believe me.)
1. I believe your numbers are incorrect with respect to Pierre.

2. Why do you assume that it would only be Beltre instead of other players?

3. Why do you assume that it would be Damon?

4. Most importantly, what is your point? That you're trying to set up a silly argument with what I believe to be incorrect information to support KW?

Regardless of HOW you spin it, KW stupidly wasted salary and player resources putting together an old, expensive, and ****ty team, with few options in the minors, little financial flexibility, and little-to-no vision for the future.


I don't know if KW was authorized to take the payroll an extra $11.25 mil. or $ 5 mil. higher, but if he was and just decided not to do so, then I would call for his firing as well. I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis.
Yes, with a more open mind, KW could have signed better players for less money than he did. Instead, this team really sucks at baseball.


[EDIT] You also referenced a post that I wrote AFTER KW stupidly squandered 2 MLB-quality pitchers, and [by your count] $8M on a backup OF in Juan Pierre. KW just "couldn't wait," could he? He bailed out a stupid front office that wasted money on Andruw Jones and released him with some $18M still on his contract for 2009.

Who knows? Had KW waited, maybe LAD would have released Pierre, too...

In any case, your research of my post DID reveal one that was written a month AFTER KW stupidly wasted resources on Pierre.

khan
06-10-2010, 03:24 PM
Speaking of Pods, anyone notice he's fallen off the map since his redhot start? Where are all the people bitching about letting him walk now?

I'd still take Pods @ $1.75M, PLUS Link, PLUS Ely, PLUS the $8M or so spent on Pierre, or whatever that money could have bought in free agency over Pierre.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 04:06 PM
Speaking of Pods, anyone notice he's fallen off the map since his redhot start? Where are all the people bitching about letting him walk now?
I'll answer your other question later, as I want to give it some more thought and attention than I can now. But, goddamn you are right about Pods. What a misguided crusade that was.

asindc
06-10-2010, 04:20 PM
Why do you assume that it would be these two players? Why not Glaus @ $1.75M? Why not Chad Tracy @ MLB min? Why not Vlad?

I didn't assume. I said this in the very same post: "I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis."

It isn't "JUST" the fact that Teahen isn't very good at baseball. It's the fact that Teahen isn't very good at baseball, AND is very expensive as well.

Just earlier this week in another thread I agreed with you about Teahen's contract, but I guess you missed that.

1. Cots has Pierre @ $10M for 2010 and $8.5M for 2011. LAD did send some money, but they didn't send $7M for 2010 and $3.5M for 2011.

Actually, they did: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091215&content_id=7811916&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb No wonder you think KW got hosed on the deal (I'm not crazy about it, either, but since 51 IP or 4.1 IP does not convince me that Ely and Link are MLB quality, I'm not as upset about it as you are.

2. Pods @ $1.75M, PLUS Link/Ely sound pretty good right about now.

Since you accuse me of assuming some things, I'd like to hear how you know Pods was available to the Sox for that same price.

Getz @ MLB min sounds a hell of a lot better than Teahen at his obese contract. Troy Glaus @ $1.75M over one year sounds better than Teahen at his obese contract. Hell, Melvin ****ing Mora @ $1.25M for 1 year sounds better than Teahen at his obese contract.

As noted above: I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis.


1. I believe your numbers are incorrect with respect to Pierre.

See above: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091215&content_id=7811916&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

2. Why do you assume that it would only be Beltre instead of other players?

See above: I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis.

3. Why do you assume that it would be Damon?
I chose Damon because he generated the most discussion of all the FAs not signed by the Sox this past offseason. As you have noted, I also chose Pods as an alternative.

4. Most importantly, what is your point? That you're trying to set up a silly argument with incorrect information to support KW?

Regardless of HOW you spin it, KW stupidly wasted salary and player resources putting together an old, expensive, and ****ty team, with few options in the minors, little financial flexibility, and little-to-no vision for the future.?

Yes, with a more open mind, KW could have signed better players for less money than he did. Instead, this team really sucks at baseball.

What in my post is incorrect?

You call two pitchers "MLB quality" who have pitched 51 and 4.1 innings in a "massive park" in the "little boy NL," as you put it, assume that KW did not pursue Glaus, assume that he did not pursue Tracy (he of the steadily-declining .OPS, which was .695 last year and is .652 so far this year), assume that he did pursue Vlad for $5.5 mil.+performances options and mutual $1 mil. option for next season, and call my post a "silly argument?":rolleyes: Well, manners aside, let's look at your proposed roster:

C: AJ (The "33 year old catcher with more than 1200 games caught")
1B: Pauly
2B: Beckham (The "youngster with ONLY 100 MLB games [and less than 1 year in professional baseball of ANY kind]")
3B: Glaus or Tracy (assuming that either chose to sign with the Sox)
SS: Alexei
LF: Pods (assuming that he would have signed the same contract with the Sox)
CF: Rios
RF: Quentin (The "career .250 hitter who ALWAYS gets hurt")
DH: Vlad

Bench: Kotsay, Getz, Castro.

SP: Buehrle (The "now-TEN YEAR veteran with a ****-ton of innings on his arm and who finished off 2009 performing poorly")
SP: Danks
SP: Floyd (The "young pitcher who's inconsistent, and has little motivation to perform, due to his contract and a lack of competition in the pitching staff")
SP: Richard
SP: Hudson (or maybe Pavano... who knows)

RP: Linebrink
RP: Pena
RP: available LH (Ron Mahay? Randy Choate? Boone Logan?)
RP: Carrasco
RP: Santos
RP: Putz
RP: Thornton

Still in farm system: Ely, Link, Fields, Nix, Dexter Carter, and Aaron Poreda.


The point is that the team would not be any less expensive, any less old, or any less "****ty," as you put it, than is what is currently constructed, if KW had made any of the moves you have proposed so far. By the way, I am trying to discuss Sox baseball, not argue about it.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 04:28 PM
I want to say, straight away, that this organization is broken, and that is not a direct result of the failings in the interim between October 2009 and April 2010. It cuts far deeper; someone must be held responsible.

asindc
06-10-2010, 04:43 PM
I want to say, straight away, that this organization is broken, and that is not a direct result of the failings in the interim between October 2009 and April 2010. It cuts far deeper; someone must be held responsible.

I can respect this viewpoint. I also believe there are some fundamental problems with this organization that signing X FA instead Y FA would not have solved this season, on or off the field. I'm all for changes in management at any level, but not for change's sake and only for the right reasons. I would also like to identify whether these problems are indicative of the current management or of ownership's approach. If it is the latter (not saying it is one way or the other), then a change in management will have minimal effect, IMO.

Craig Grebeck
06-10-2010, 04:48 PM
I can respect this viewpoint. I also believe there are some fundamental problems with this organization that signing X FA instead Y FA would not have solved this season, on or off the field. I'm all for changes in management at any level, but not for change's sake and only for the right reasons. I would also like to identify whether these problems are indicative of the current management or of ownership's approach. If it is the latter (not saying it is one way or the other), then a change in management will have minimal effect, IMO.
I think that it's a combination of both. Going over-slot for the sake of going over-slot won't make this organization better; this, of course, is one thing that can be blamed on JR: the reluctance to go over-slot. They have to identify when to spend, how to spend, and who to spend on -- right now, they're failing at all three.

khan
06-10-2010, 05:31 PM
I didn't assume. I said this in the very same post: "I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis."
Yet, you chose the most expensive 3rd baseman [at the exclusion of other options] in your "analysis," seemingly in an effort to defend KW.

This is why I asked you, "Why not Tracy @ league min?"

It only takes a second to search for a FA list on the internet, and find either the major FAs [like Beltre], or the value signings [like Tracy]. After all, you DID take the time to research my posts, and found one I wrote ONE MONTH after KW had already wasted money on Teahen and Pierre.


Actually, they did: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091215&content_id=7811916&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091215&content_id=7811916&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) No wonder you think KW got hosed on the deal
He was a backup OF. He's 32. His previous organization stupidly gave Andruw Jones $36M, and then cut him, so as to eat $18M. Therefore, there is at least the history of the Dodgers behaving stupidly with respect to cutting expensive players.

All of this, BEFORE you consider that KW gave away 2 MLB-quality players. No matter HOW you spin it, KW DID get hosed. Juan Pierre is NOT worth whatever the SOX are paying him, PLUS the two pitchers.


(I'm not crazy about it, either, but since 51 IP or 4.1 IP does not convince me that Ely and Link are MLB quality, I'm not as upset about it as you are.
Silly question for you:

Would you accept 2 prospects that had shown signs of being able to perform @ the MLB level, AND $8M for Juan Pierre right now?
[subquestion] Do you think that there is another GM stupid enough to make this offer to KW right now?


I chose Damon because he generated the most discussion of all the FAs not signed by the Sox this past offseason.
Actually, I believe Damon was the one signed latest, so we tend to remember more recent events. In any case, WITHOUT the money wasted on Pierre and Teahen, Damon, or Vlad were real possibilites.

You call two pitchers "MLB quality" who have pitched 51 and 4.1 innings
Don't like the "MLB quality" phrase? Fine. Try "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level" instead.

I apologize that my attempt to shorten the phrase, "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level" into "MLB-quality" has caused you consternation.


For a third time, I'll ask you [politely, BTW]:

Would you trade 2 "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level," PLUS $8M for Juan Pierre right now?


assume that KW did not pursue Glaus,
Actually, I didn't assume that, YOU made the assumption that it was "only" Beltran as a FA option @ 3rd. You excluded Glaus in determining that there was no other way that KW could have made this team better or cheaper.

assume that he did not pursue Tracy (he of the steadily-declining .OPS, which was .695 last year and is .652 so far this year),
And again, YOU made the assumption in your "analysis" to make it look as though KW made the most fiscally-responsible signings. BTW, @ league min, Tracy would allow for the SOX to fix other issues.


assume that he did pursue Vlad for $5.5 mil.+performances options and mutual $1 mil. option for next season, and call my post a "silly argument?"

Yes, without including Vlad @ $5.5M, or at a minimum, MORE of the FA and/or trade options in your "analysis"/attempt to absolve KW for his incompetence, it does look a bit silly. IMO, your conclusion that the team would be more expensive, without considering more than one option per position is [no offense, but] silly.


The point is that the team would not be any less expensive,
Actually, there are/were cheaper options that you conveniently chose not to include in your defense of KW.

any less old,
Perhaps. But on the other hand, they could have more youngsters in AAA had KW been more patient, IMO.

or any less "****ty," as you put it, than is what is currently constructed,
Perhaps. We will never know.

if KW had made any of the moves you have proposed so far.
Actually, YOU proposed these moves, not me.

By the way, I am trying to discuss Sox baseball, not argue about it.
As am I. I opine that KW ****ed up royally, and made this team older, crappier, and more expensive. Do you disagree? If so, why?

asindc
06-10-2010, 06:58 PM
Yet, you chose the most expensive 3rd baseman [at the exclusion of other options] in your "analysis," seemingly in an effort to defend KW.

This is why I asked you, "Why not Tracy @ league min?"

It only takes a second to search for a FA list on the internet, and find either the major FAs [like Beltre], or the value signings [like Tracy]. After all, you DID take the time to research my posts, and found one I wrote ONE MONTH after KW had already wasted money on Teahen and Pierre.



He was a backup OF. He's 32. His previous organization stupidly gave Andruw Jones $36M, and then cut him, so as to eat $18M. Therefore, there is at least the history of the Dodgers behaving stupidly with respect to cutting expensive players.

All of this, BEFORE you consider that KW gave away 2 MLB-quality players. No matter HOW you spin it, KW DID get hosed. Juan Pierre is NOT worth whatever the SOX are paying him, PLUS the two pitchers.



Silly question for you:

Would you accept 2 prospects that had shown signs of being able to perform @ the MLB level, AND $8M for Juan Pierre right now?
[subquestion] Do you think that there is another GM stupid enough to make this offer to KW right now?



Actually, I believe Damon was the one signed latest, so we tend to remember more recent events. In any case, WITHOUT the money wasted on Pierre and Teahen, Damon, or Vlad were real possibilites.


Don't like the "MLB quality" phrase? Fine. Try "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level" instead.

I apologize that my attempt to shorten the phrase, "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level" into "MLB-quality" has caused you consternation.


For a third time, I'll ask you [politely, BTW]:

Would you trade 2 "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level," PLUS $8M for Juan Pierre right now?



Actually, I didn't assume that, YOU made the assumption that it was "only" Beltran as a FA option @ 3rd. You excluded Glaus in determining that there was no other way that KW could have made this team better or cheaper.


And again, YOU made the assumption in your "analysis" to make it look as though KW made the most fiscally-responsible signings. BTW, @ league min, Tracy would allow for the SOX to fix other issues.




Yes, without including Vlad @ $5.5M, or at a minimum, MORE of the FA and/or trade options in your "analysis"/attempt to absolve KW for his incompetence, it does look a bit silly. IMO, your conclusion that the team would be more expensive, without considering more than one option per position is [no offense, but] silly.



Actually, there are/were cheaper options that you conveniently chose not to include in your defense of KW.


Perhaps. But on the other hand, they could have more youngsters in AAA had KW been more patient, IMO.


Perhaps. We will never know.


Actually, YOU proposed these moves, not me.


As am I. I opine that KW ****ed up royally, and made this team older, crappier, and more expensive. Do you disagree? If so, why?

I did not exclude any other 3rd baseman from my initial posts, or assumed that Beltre was the only 3rd baseman available that might fit your criteria of a real 3rd baseman (by the way, I'm surprised that you would cite Tracy as such, given his performance of the past three seasons). I'll repeat what I said, for a fourth time: "I admit that I'm not aware of any other 3rd baseman out there that would have been worth signing besides Beltre, so if there was, that would obviously have to be included in the analysis." I chose Beltre because he was the most "real" 3rd baseman on the market, not as to exclude other possibilities. If you had cited the criterion of value in your post that I initially responded to, then Beltre would not have been the first 3rd baseman to come to mind for me.

Now that I have repeated myself once again regarding the 3rd baseman possibilities, I will also add that you mentioned Glaus, Tracy, Vlad, and/or Pods as possible alternatives to Teahen and Pierre, which is why I listed a 2nd roster with those names. Had you not mentioned them, I would not have done so. I mentioned Damon because of the at least five different threads generated on the possibility of him signing with the Sox. I don't believe any other FA, besides Thome perhaps, generated that kind of interest this past offseason.

To answer your question about Pierre, yes I would accept $8 million dollars and two "prospects that have already shown signs of being able to perform at the MLB level" for him, just as I would for Pods or Damon if either was on this team right now. Trades don't typically work that way, however. No team is going to assume any 32, 34, or 36-year-old speed player's contract (whether it has a fraction of $1.75 mil. left or a fraction of $8 mil. left on it) and send $8 million with two prospects to obtain that player. I suppose KW could have waited to see if LAD would just simply cut Pierre and eat his entire contract, but that does not seem like a concrete plan.

If I accused you of assuming that KW had not pursued either Glaus, Tracy, or Vlad, it is because I inferred from this quote--
Why do you assume that it would be these two players? Why not Glaus @ $1.75M? Why not Chad Tracy @ MLB min? Why not Vlad?
--that you taken it as a given that KW did not pursue any of those players.

As for other FA possibilities, since your stated criteria are for better performing, younger, and/or less expensive players, and I haven't posted a proposed lineup that you think meets these criteria, would you like to make an attempt? After all, my two attempts so far have left you with the impression that it is either "seemingly in an effort to defend KW," or an attempt to "spin it," or an "attempt to absolve KW for his incompetence..." I refer to to post #179 in this thread (just the 3rd post above this one) as an indication of my views of management.

To answer your last question, if KW had acquired any combination of the players you have mentioned, then I don't think your goal of a younger roster with payroll flexibility would have been realized. I do think the farm system would be in better shape with Ely and Link, and I do think we have gotten better performances out of LF and DH to this point (not sure about going forward, and I don't know about 3B since that would depend on whether you chose Glaus or Tracy), but I don't think this team would be in any better shape record-wise. And I definitely don't think the organization's fundamental problems would be any closer to being solved.