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thomas35forever
06-05-2010, 09:47 PM
So says Ozzie.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5253379

Hitmen77
06-05-2010, 11:08 PM
Whatever. This is the guy who said we didn't need a full time DH.

DirtySox
06-05-2010, 11:10 PM
Good. Trade Ozzie too.

Noneck
06-05-2010, 11:23 PM
I am somewhat amused by Ozwaldo saying that trades may be made, in a threatening manner.

I would think that a player would love to be traded with the way this club is going and also the future of this club.

WhiteSoxOnly
06-05-2010, 11:30 PM
They can't happen fast enough.On with it already.

VMSNS
06-05-2010, 11:53 PM
Good. Trade Ozzie too.

This.

theamb
06-05-2010, 11:54 PM
Whatever. This is the guy who said we didn't need a full time DH.

You don't need a full-time DH when the roster is already compromised of 1/3 DH's.

That's the bigger problem

LoveYourSuit
06-06-2010, 12:39 AM
I put everyone on the block, EVERYONE!

Gavin
06-06-2010, 01:05 AM
I put everyone on the block, EVERYONE!

I think the problem is that the White Sox brass has put together a team of players that other MLB teams have zero interest in. Genuine disinterest... your 2010 Chicago White Sox.

LoveYourSuit
06-06-2010, 01:09 AM
I think the problem is that the White Sox brass has put together a team of players that other MLB teams have zero interest in. Genuine disinterest... your 2010 Chicago White Sox.


Yeah, I agree.

This is why you will more than likely have to unload some of your better players to get anything in value in return. One guy that comes to mind is Matt Thornton. I think you can get very good value for him right now. IT would suck, but that's hte truth. Another guy is Alex Rios.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 04:37 AM
With Pierzynski's 10-and-5 rights just over a week away, I think he'll be in the first wave.

I think they have to get younger and cheaper with these kind of results, but the real problem is the coaching staff. If we dump players and retain Ozzie and his coaches we'll just get worse.

WSox597
06-06-2010, 07:21 AM
Ozzie and KW need to both go, before they do something stupid like trade starting pitching for another team's Joe Borchard.

Ozzie has this man-crush on Kotsay, so he won't even be dangled as trade bait. He's the 2010 version of Rob Mackowiak, he gets trotted out there way too much.

Of course, Kotsay has zero trade value anyway, unless there is a Kenny Williams clone out there.

Remove both of these guys this weekend, THEN make some moves. They've done enough damage.

Extending Teahen should have been an instant firing for KW. The guy wasn't even a starter on KC anymore.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 08:00 AM
My top ten player additions by subtraction:

A.J., P.K., TCM, Teahen, Vizquel, Kotsay, Pierre, Jenks, Pena, Williams.

There are another five I wouldn't mind being dealt, either.

But the entire coaching staff needs to go, except possibly Coop. And every day this doesn't happen makes me want KW to go too.

GAsoxfan
06-06-2010, 08:27 AM
You don't need a full-time DH when the roster is already compromised of 1/3 DH's.

That's the bigger problem

This team does not have a decent DH. Designated hitters actually need to hit. 1/3 of this team isn't hitting well enough to be a DH.

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 08:36 AM
I say you open up shop for everybody, but I'm guessing TCQ, Beckham Santos and Rios are off limits.

I'd love to see the majority moved, though.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 09:52 AM
You don't need a full-time DH when the roster is already compromised of 1/3 DH's.

That's the bigger problem
I don't know what this means.

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 09:58 AM
You don't need a full-time DH when the roster is already compromised of 1/3 DH's.

That's the bigger problem

This team doesn't have a DH.

cards press box
06-06-2010, 09:58 AM
Good. Trade Ozzie too.

Neither Ozzie nor KW are going anywhere. But if the Sox do blow this team up, I suspect that these moves are made:

1. AJ to Texas, maybe for a catcher but more likely for pitching prospects;

2. PK to the Angels (maybe for Hank Conger or Mike Trout), with a good chance that PK becomes a free agent with Kendry Morales' return and re-signs with the Sox in 2011;

3. Jenks and/or Putz to Philadelphia. Other than Domonic Brown, I don't know who else the Sox might want out of the Philly system. Brown is quite a prospect and could be the Sox rightfielder for years if they could get him. In a historic sense, this could be the Johnny Callison deal in the reverse, with the young promising right fielder coming to the White Sox from the Phillies;

4. Andruw Jones, Mark Teahan, Mark Kotsay, Freddie Garcia could get dealt to contenders looking to fill a hole or bolster their bench. Juan Pierre could be on this list, too.

5. I'm sure the Sox don't want to trade Mark Buerhle but I imagine that they'll listen to offers, particularly from an NL contender looking for a pitcher for a playoff run and willing to deal young, a MLB-ready player or players.

6. I don't think the Sox consider dealing Gavin Floyd or Carlos Quentin because their stock is too low right now.

The off-limits players on the MLB roster would be Danks, Peavy, Santos, Thornton, A. Ramirez, Beckham and Rios.

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 10:00 AM
There is no way the White Sox are getting either of those prospects from the Angels for Konerko.

Edit - And why have Alexei off limits? I'd trade him at the drop of a hat.

DirtySox
06-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Dom Brown and Mike Trout are absolutely not being acquired by the White Sox. Trout has exploded onto the scene, and I would put both in top 30 prospects in baseball. Philly and LA would hangup the phone laughing.

Conger is less of a stretch, but I'd be shocked if the Angels were willing to part with him. The Sox would have to kick in salary on Konerko for it to even be considered. Even then, chances are remote.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 10:09 AM
Neither Ozzie nor KW are going anywhere. But if the Sox do blow this team up, I suspect that these moves are made:

1. AJ to Texas, maybe for a catcher but more likely for pitching prospects;

2. PK to the Angels (maybe for Hank Conger or Mike Trout), with a good chance that PK becomes a free agent with Kendry Morales' return and re-signs with the Sox in 2011;

3. Jenks and/or Putz to Philadelphia. Other than Domonic Brown, I don't know who else the Sox might want out of the Philly system. Brown is quite a prospect and could be the Sox rightfielder for years if they could get him. In a historic sense, this could be the Johnny Callison deal in the reverse, with the young promising right fielder coming to the White Sox from the Phillies;

4. Andruw Jones, Mark Teahan, Mark Kotsay, Freddie Garcia could get dealt to contenders looking to fill a hole or bolster their bench. Juan Pierre could be on this list, too.

5. I'm sure the Sox don't want to trade Mark Buerhle but I imagine that they'll listen to offers, particularly from an NL contender looking for a pitcher for a playoff run and willing to deal young, a MLB-ready player or players.

6. I don't think the Sox consider dealing Gavin Floyd or Carlos Quentin because their stock is too low right now.

The off-limits players on the MLB roster would be Danks, Peavy, Santos, Thornton, A. Ramirez, Beckham and Rios.
You need to re-evaluate the value of pretty much every player on this team. Dom Brown isn't coming here for anything.

cards press box
06-06-2010, 10:11 AM
There is no way the White Sox are getting either of those prospects from the Angels for Konerko.

Edit - And why have Alexei off limits? I'd trade him at the drop of a hat.

You might have a point about Trout but it depends upon how much the Angels want PK for this year. In any event, the Angels have a lot of catching (Mike Napoli, Jeff Mathis, Bobby Wilson, Ryan Budde, Hank Conger). Why wouldn't they deal Conger to fill their needs on the MLB roster to make a realistic run at the playoffs in the weak 2010 AL West?

The Sox don't have any middle infield depth in their system right now. I don't see how it helps to trade Alexei (who is essentially a high upside prospect at SS) for a different prospect. But if the right deal came along, I suppose the Sox would have to listen.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 10:11 AM
You might have a point about Trout but it depends upon how much the Angels want PK for this year. In any event, the Angels have a lot of catching (Mike Napoli, Jeff Mathis, Bobby Wilson, Ryan Budde, Hank Conger). Why wouldn't they deal Conger to fill their needs on the MLB roster to make a realistic run at the playoffs in the weak 2010 AL West?

The Sox don't have any middle infield depth in their system right now. I don't see how it helps to trade Alexei (who is essentially a high upside prospect at SS) for a different prospect. But if the right deal came along, I suppose the Sox would have to listen.
Because Paul Konerko isn't worth that.

cards press box
06-06-2010, 10:35 AM
Because Paul Konerko isn't worth that.

That is your view but it may not be the Angels' view. PK could be the difference between the Angels making the playoffs or not making the playoffs this year. What is that worth in terms of economics or the Angels' continuing fight with the Dodgers for the L.A. market? I don't know the answer to that question but that is the judgment that the Angels have to make: is the short term value of PK filling their hole at 1st base and its attendant value with regard to finances and market share worth dealing the long term value of one of their catching prospects?

In 1987, the Tigers acquired Doyle Alexander from the Braves. Alexander went 9-0 with a 1.54 ERA for Detroit and they won the AL East. The cost? Prospect John Smoltz who won a few games for the Braves in the next two decades. Teams often deal prospects to win now. Getting PK would be a big acquisition for the Angels and the Sox might be sitting in a better position than you think to get a good return for him.

Tragg
06-06-2010, 10:41 AM
That is your view but it may not be the Angels' view. PK could be the difference between the Angels making the playoffs or not making the playoffs this year. What is that worth in terms of economics or the Angels' continuing fight with the Dodgers for the L.A. market? I don't know the answer to that question but that is the judgment that the Angels have to make: is the short term value of PK filling their hole at 1st base and its attendant value with regard to finances and market share worth dealing the long term value of one of their catching prospects?

In 1987, the Tigers acquired Doyle Alexander from the Braves. Alexander went 9-0 with a 1.54 ERA for Detroit and they won the AL East. The cost? Prospect John Smoltz who won a few games for the Braves in the next two decades. Teams often deal prospects to win now. Getting PK would be a big acquisition for the Angels and the Sox might be sitting in a better position than you think to get a good return for him.
TEams just don't make that sort of trade anymore. Jeff Bagwell, Jason Varitek...same thing.
There will be several "Konerkos" on the market.
Thornton's our shot for a real prospect.

cards press box
06-06-2010, 10:45 AM
You need to re-evaluate the value of pretty much every player on this team. Dom Brown isn't coming here for anything.

I am quite familiar with Brown (have him stashed on my NL only fantasy team) and I expect that you are right -- most likely scenario is that he starts in RF or LF for the Phillies next year and Jayson Werth signs elsewhere as a free agent. But the Phils have been scouting Jenks and Putz. Other than Brown, I can't imagine who the Sox would want out of their farm system.

I also have to concede that the Angels wouldn't want to trade Trout who has played quite well this year and might be their best prospect.

Having said that, I don't know why I need to re-evaluate anything else. Texas has been scouting AJ. I don't know who the Sox would get for him. I only ventured to guess that it would be a catcher or pitching prospects. As for PK, I do think that the Sox will deal him to the Angels. I discussed this at length in another post but I think the Sox might be in the "catbird's seat" with the Angels regarding a PK deal.

As for Andruw Jones, Mark Teahan, Mark Kotsay, Freddie Garcia and Juan Pierre, I understand that they have limitations as ballplayers wouldn't bring top prospects back. Nonetheless, the Sox might be able to deal Jones and Kotsay in small deals to bolster some team's bench. I suppose that Vizquel falls into that category, too. The return on those guys wouldn't be great but it would be something. And Garcia has pitched o.k., certainly well enough for a contending team looking to upgrade their fifth starter.

Teahan's contract might make him hard to trade but $10 million over two years is not excessive in the current MLB market. You know how he could be dealt? Let's say that the Sox and Rockies are discussing a deal involving Mark Buerhle and the Sox want a couple of young players, including Rockie third baseman Ian Stewart. Teahan could go to Colorado in such a deal where he could platoon with Melvin Mora at 3B and the Rockies get that veteran starter they need to make a push at the playoffs.

People can discount the possibility of trading Juan Pierre but consider this: the Sox owe him $6 million over 2 years. That is cheap by today's standards and that makes him a trading chip for any contender who needs some speed and possibly a leadoff man.

DickAllen72
06-06-2010, 11:22 AM
Good. Trade Ozzie too.
Trade Ozzie first.

Brian26
06-06-2010, 11:22 AM
The off-limits players on the MLB roster would be Danks, Peavy, Santos, Thornton, A. Ramirez, Beckham and Rios.

This may not be a popular opinion, but if the Sox are serious about rebuilding, they should consider trading Rios and Peavy. There's no point in having these guys around for the next three years if they aren't going to compete for a title. This clears a large chunk of committed salary, and these two guys probably bring back your best bounty.

DickAllen72
06-06-2010, 11:30 AM
The off-limits players on the MLB roster would be Danks, Peavy, Santos, Thornton, A. Ramirez, Beckham and Rios.
Too bad they didn't trade Beckham this offseason when his value was probably sky high. I never saw him as the potential superstar others did. I always saw him as a guy who would become a nice little player. Anyway, I wouldn't trade him for low value but there's no way I would clasify him as "untouchable". He may be one of their better trading chips if some team still thinks of him the way the Sox thought of him a few short months ago.

I would have no problem trading Alexei either.

Out of the guys who are most mentioned as likely to be traded, I'd miss AJ the most. I think he's underappreciated for playing a difficult position day in day out year after year. I'd rather they con some team into trading for Flowers before everyone else realizes he's another bust.

But before they start trading away talent, give another manager a shot. It's time for Ozzie to go and take his non-hitting DH with him.

fox23
06-06-2010, 01:36 PM
This may not be a popular opinion, but if the Sox are serious about rebuilding, they should consider trading Rios and Peavy. There's no point in having these guys around for the next three years if they aren't going to compete for a title. This clears a large chunk of committed salary, and these two guys probably bring back your best bounty.

I don't think anyone in the league would take either of those guys with their current salaries.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 01:37 PM
Ozzie and KW need to both go, before they do something stupid like trade starting pitching for another team's Joe Borchard.

Ozzie has this man-crush on Kotsay, so he won't even be dangled as trade bait. He's the 2010 version of Rob Mackowiak, he gets trotted out there way too much.

Of course, Kotsay has zero trade value anyway, unless there is a Kenny Williams clone out there.

Remove both of these guys this weekend, THEN make some moves. They've done enough damage.

Extending Teahen should have been an instant firing for KW. The guy wasn't even a starter on KC anymore.



Awesome post from beginning to end...Brilliant!

Woofer
06-06-2010, 02:28 PM
The problem I have with any possible trades is that I've lost faith in managements ability to get any sort of talent back for our players.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 03:01 PM
The problem I have with any possible trades is that I've lost faith in managements ability to get any sort of talent back for our players.

With very good reason. They have proven their inability to do this consistently over time. You are spot on.

kittle42
06-06-2010, 03:12 PM
With very good reason. They have proven their inability to do this consistently over time. You are spot on.

Their track record of late has not been the greatest.

But don't let that get in the way of the management defense crusade.

TheOldRoman
06-06-2010, 03:19 PM
Ozzie and KW need to both go, before they do something stupid like trade starting pitching for another team's Joe Borchard.

Ozzie has this man-crush on Kotsay, so he won't even be dangled as trade bait. He's the 2010 version of Rob Mackowiak, he gets trotted out there way too much.

Of course, Kotsay has zero trade value anyway, unless there is a Kenny Williams clone out there.

Remove both of these guys this weekend, THEN make some moves. They've done enough damage.

Extending Teahen should have been an instant firing for KW. The guy wasn't even a starter on KC anymore.I know, right?! Hopefully there is someone as dumb as KW, that way we might be able to pry away a Brian Anderson type prospect. Get them to overpay just like Kenny did!

JohnTucker0814
06-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Their track record of late has not been the greatest.

But don't let that get in the way of the management defense crusade.

Example of a trade when we got hosed??? Maybe we haven't gotten a Jason Heyward back in a deal, but it's because we weren't sending a Mark Teixeira the other way.

You can only get something of value if you're selling something of value. Are you talking about Getz & Fields for Teahen? Marquez & Betemit for Swisher? Flowers & Lillibridge for Vazquez?

Yes, I'd have liked to get more in all of those trades, but if they had the opportunity to get more, they probably would have. Swisher and Vazquez had to go, because our fan base didn't like either player and either player didn't like being here. That makes their trade value even lower!

Quit acting like the management has been making terrible decisions. It's unfortunate that ALL of their decisions aren't perfect, but that's what you get!

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 03:44 PM
Example of a trade when we got hosed??? Maybe we haven't gotten a Jason Heyward back in a deal, but it's because we weren't sending a Mark Teixeira the other way.

You can only get something of value if you're selling something of value. Are you talking about Getz & Fields for Teahen? Marquez & Betemit for Swisher? Flowers & Lillibridge for Vazquez?

Yes, I'd have liked to get more in all of those trades, but if they had the opportunity to get more, they probably would have. Swisher and Vazquez had to go, because our fan base didn't like either player and either player didn't like being here. That makes their trade value even lower!

Quit acting like the management has been making terrible decisions. It's unfortunate that ALL of their decisions aren't perfect, but that's what you get!

We should have had a bigger return on Swisher based on what we gave up for him, yes.

JohnTucker0814
06-06-2010, 03:52 PM
We should have had a bigger return on Swisher based on what we gave up for him, yes.

But it doesn't matter what we gave up for him, it was a year later and he wanted out of here and we wanted him out of there. We couldn't tell the other clubs, if you don't give me this player, we just won't trade him. Oakland was in a position that they needed to be conviced to get rid of Swisher, we had to convince NYY to take Swisher... TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS!

soltrain21
06-06-2010, 03:56 PM
But it doesn't matter what we gave up for him, it was a year later and he wanted out of here and we wanted him out of there. We couldn't tell the other clubs, if you don't give me this player, we just won't trade him. Oakland was in a position that they needed to be conviced to get rid of Swisher, we had to convince NYY to take Swisher... TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS!

We bought super high and sold super low. You don't think that is a failure?

jabrch
06-06-2010, 04:09 PM
But it doesn't matter what we gave up for him, it was a year later and he wanted out of here and we wanted him out of there. We couldn't tell the other clubs, if you don't give me this player, we just won't trade him. Oakland was in a position that they needed to be conviced to get rid of Swisher, we had to convince NYY to take Swisher... TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS!

The OP said he lacks faith in the ability of management to get value for our players - let's keep it in context. It's a ridiculous argument even if someone can find ONE example where we haven't. That doesn't mean they CAN'T. The fact is, KW and team have done a nice job trading players and not getting burned on them. He makes more moves than most GMs and regrets fewer. Is he perfect? Of course not...but to argue that he can't get value is just silly. If that's making excuses for management, then so be it. I'll take KW making trades. He wins more than he loses and his losses are small relative to his wins.

Tragg
06-06-2010, 04:09 PM
Example of a trade when we got hosed??? Maybe we haven't gotten a Jason Heyward back in a deal, but it's because we weren't sending a Mark Teixeira the other way.

You can only get something of value if you're selling something of value. Are you talking about Getz & Fields for Teahen? Marquez & Betemit for Swisher? Flowers & Lillibridge for Vazquez?

Yes, I'd have liked to get more in all of those trades, but if they had the opportunity to get more, they probably would have. Swisher and Vazquez had to go, because our fan base didn't like either player and either player didn't like being here. That makes their trade value even lower!
!
They weren't traded because of the fan base. They were traded because Ozzie Guillen wanted them out of his pristine, happy clubhouse. If that lowers the value, then that's our own fronnt office lowering the value. A "little more" for Swisher? We got pure junk for him. Did you see what we gave for him? 3 top prospects.

What about Peavy right off the disabled list and his 6.00 ERA and massive salary.

What about a rookie of the year candidate for Juan Pierre. That's particulalry galling considering Swisher #2.
What about a 3 year extension for Teahan at $5 mill a year for a below average hitter and a horrible defender?
What about signing Kotsay and Teahan, but no money for a DH. "Can't get at bats" for Jim Thome.

Williams' moves have been generally awful for the last 2 years. Let's hope he starts making better ones.

DirtySox
06-06-2010, 06:07 PM
Trades Seem Inevitable (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicagowhite-sox/post/_/id/650/trades-seem-inevitable-for-white-sox)

Brian26
06-06-2010, 06:53 PM
Trades Seem Inevitable (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicagowhite-sox/post/_/id/650/trades-seem-inevitable-for-white-sox)

I enjoyed listening to Hawk and Stoney try to talk up Jenks' value in the 9th. I suppose you never know who is watching.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 07:47 PM
That is your view but it may not be the Angels' view. PK could be the difference between the Angels making the playoffs or not making the playoffs this year. What is that worth in terms of economics or the Angels' continuing fight with the Dodgers for the L.A. market? I don't know the answer to that question but that is the judgment that the Angels have to make: is the short term value of PK filling their hole at 1st base and its attendant value with regard to finances and market share worth dealing the long term value of one of their catching prospects?

In 1987, the Tigers acquired Doyle Alexander from the Braves. Alexander went 9-0 with a 1.54 ERA for Detroit and they won the AL East. The cost? Prospect John Smoltz who won a few games for the Braves in the next two decades. Teams often deal prospects to win now. Getting PK would be a big acquisition for the Angels and the Sox might be sitting in a better position than you think to get a good return for him.
A good return for Paul Konerko would be a mid-level prospect. That's not much at all -- but it's a good return for a pretty good first basemen in his walk year.

JohnTucker0814
06-06-2010, 08:38 PM
They weren't traded because of the fan base. They were traded because Ozzie Guillen wanted them out of his pristine, happy clubhouse. If that lowers the value, then that's our own fronnt office lowering the value. A "little more" for Swisher? We got pure junk for him. Did you see what we gave for him? 3 top prospects.

What about Peavy right off the disabled list and his 6.00 ERA and massive salary.

What about a rookie of the year candidate for Juan Pierre. That's particulalry galling considering Swisher #2.
What about a 3 year extension for Teahan at $5 mill a year for a below average hitter and a horrible defender?
What about signing Kotsay and Teahan, but no money for a DH. "Can't get at bats" for Jim Thome.

Williams' moves have been generally awful for the last 2 years. Let's hope he starts making better ones.

Was there anyone on this board that thought we were sending a potential ROY candidate to LA in Jon Ely? NO

I believe the Teahen extension just took him through his arbitration years, so it eliminated the need to deal with arbitration.

Everyone thought signing Kotsay was great. He's perfect for the role that he should be playing. Our management wanted to go with a rotating DH this year. Andruw Jones started out great and if TCQ wasn't so ****ty this year, our rotating DH would have been awesome. They took a risk, and to this point it's failed. But we needed to get more athletic and Jim Thome isn't in his prime anymore. It takes 3 hits to score him from 1B... Haven't we had enough of that?

This team has failed, the plan wasn't really that bad, the problem is the players aren't performing! It has NOTHING to do with pre-season moves. If TCQ was hitting, we could live with Jones/Kotsay DH. If our pitchers didn't have the worst ERA in the AL, we'd be okay. And dont' tell me that the problem is management because they picked the wrong players. Did you predict Beckham and TCQ to be horrible the first 2 months? Did you predict our pitching staff would be the worst in the AL?

LITTLE NELL
06-06-2010, 09:05 PM
Was there anyone on this board that thought we were sending a potential ROY candidate to LA in Jon Ely? NO

I believe the Teahen extension just took him through his arbitration years, so it eliminated the need to deal with arbitration.

Everyone thought signing Kotsay was great. He's perfect for the role that he should be playing. Our management wanted to go with a rotating DH this year. Andruw Jones started out great and if TCQ wasn't so ****ty this year, our rotating DH would have been awesome. They took a risk, and to this point it's failed. But we needed to get more athletic and Jim Thome isn't in his prime anymore. It takes 3 hits to score him from 1B... Haven't we had enough of that?

This team has failed, the plan wasn't really that bad, the problem is the players aren't performing! It has NOTHING to do with pre-season moves. If TCQ was hitting, we could live with Jones/Kotsay DH. If our pitchers didn't have the worst ERA in the AL, we'd be okay. And dont' tell me that the problem is management because they picked the wrong players. Did you predict Beckham and TCQ to be horrible the first 2 months? Did you predict our pitching staff would be the worst in the AL?

Good take on the situation, bottom line the hitters aren't hitting and the pitchers aren't pitching. We all thought that our starting 5 was as good as any in MLB and we would have enough hitting to make the playoffs.
I'm still against us trading Getz, we gave up on him way too soon and may have messed with Beckhams head playing his 3rd position in less than a years time.

gosox41
06-06-2010, 09:51 PM
This team has failed, the plan wasn't really that bad, the problem is the players aren't performing! It has NOTHING to do with pre-season moves. If TCQ was hitting, we could live with Jones/Kotsay DH. If our pitchers didn't have the worst ERA in the AL, we'd be okay. And dont' tell me that the problem is management because they picked the wrong players. Did you predict Beckham and TCQ to be horrible the first 2 months? Did you predict our pitching staff would be the worst in the AL?


Thank good ness someone gets it. As I said in an earlier post in another thread, if Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd, TCQ and Beckham play like they have in the past, this team would be a lot better.

As bad as Kotsay has been, he's not the biggest reason the team is awful. Let's start the blame with the veterans who have stuck it up the mose. See above. Beckham, while considered a veteran, has a limited sample size to be judged, but what's the excuse for the other guys.

And it's one thing for guys to be struggling below their career norms, but these 5 guys have been flat out awful. So we can talk about Andrew Jones this and Kotsay that, but you nailed it on the head above. All 5 guys above are part of the core of this team and they have all been terrible. 20% of the roster. Approximately $32 million in payroll.

And I won't even get into the guys who have been scuffling but not aren't nearly as bad as the 5 listed above (ie AJ).

And to take it one step further with your point, maybe if these guys were performing, we'd see a lot less of Kotsay, Vizquel and etc. But when everyone is playing at the same level--dog doo, that forces Ozzie to through a lot of dog doo against the wall to see what sticks. If so many key guys weren't terrible then we wouldn't be in this position.

Bob

russ99
06-06-2010, 10:11 PM
Ozzie and KW need to both go, before they do something stupid like trade starting pitching for another team's Joe Borchard.

Ozzie has this man-crush on Kotsay, so he won't even be dangled as trade bait. He's the 2010 version of Rob Mackowiak, he gets trotted out there way too much.

Of course, Kotsay has zero trade value anyway, unless there is a Kenny Williams clone out there.

Remove both of these guys this weekend, THEN make some moves. They've done enough damage.

Extending Teahen should have been an instant firing for KW. The guy wasn't even a starter on KC anymore.

Please explain why Kotsay is 10th in at-bats on the team if Ozzie has such a man-crush on him. Truth is if Jones wasn't hitting .216, and Quentin wasn't hitting .209 (way up from yesterday) than Kotsay wouldn't get nearly as many at-bats as he has now.

Which of Vizquel, Nix, Castro and Lillibridge should get more at-bats over Kotsay? Those are the players behind him in total at-bats.

I'd be all for some re-shuffling of the coaching staff, and certainly some deals to get younger and more talented, but Ozzie's not going anywhere.

A. Cavatica
06-06-2010, 10:25 PM
Ozzie's not going anywhere.

And that's problem #1.

Tragg
06-06-2010, 10:27 PM
Was there anyone on this board that thought we were sending a potential ROY candidate to LA in Jon Ely? NO

I believe the Teahen extension just took him through his arbitration years, so it eliminated the need to deal with arbitration.

That's what GMs are paid to do...scout players. There's no way he should have given any player that had a real chance to be a legit starter in return for Juan Pierre. (the other one isn't bad either) He accepted pure utility level talent and fifth starter ceiling for Swisher...why in the world doesn't he apply the same to Pierre? It's ridiculous how he consistently gives more than he gets.

$5 million for Teahan is severely overpaying him through his arbitration years.


Kotsay is a utility player. He's fine for a fourth outfielder. No one except ozzie and Oney guillen were excited about him at DH.

jabrch
06-06-2010, 10:31 PM
I enjoyed listening to Hawk and Stoney try to talk up Jenks' value in the 9th. I suppose you never know who is watching.

8 of his last 9 outings have been 1 IP with 0 runs scored. I think his value is greater than some here think.

Craig Grebeck
06-06-2010, 11:07 PM
8 of his last 9 outings have been 1 IP with 0 runs scored. I think his value is greater than some here think.
Sadly, general managers don't just look at IP and runs scored in isolation. They look at, you know, other stuff.

munchman33
06-06-2010, 11:44 PM
Sadly, general managers don't just look at IP and runs scored in isolation. They look at, you know, other stuff.

What he said.

Tragg
06-07-2010, 12:18 AM
Sadly, general managers don't just look at IP and runs scored in isolation. They look at, you know, other stuff.

Okay- what's his other stuff doing? Sounds like it's pretty good.
His problem was his breaking ball.

Craig Grebeck
06-07-2010, 12:23 AM
Okay- what's his other stuff doing? Sounds like it's pretty good.
His problem was his breaking ball.
Well, at the third-grade, back-of-baseball-card level: BB, H, etc. Scouts will monitor other things as well, things that have far more bearing -- scouty things, those don't need explaining.

Simply saying he has a higher value because his last X of Y outings resulted in Z is stupid.

palehozenychicty
06-07-2010, 01:00 AM
Thank good ness someone gets it. As I said in an earlier post in another thread, if Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd, TCQ and Beckham play like they have in the past, this team would be a lot better.

As bad as Kotsay has been, he's not the biggest reason the team is awful. Let's start the blame with the veterans who have stuck it up the mose. See above. Beckham, while considered a veteran, has a limited sample size to be judged, but what's the excuse for the other guys.

And it's one thing for guys to be struggling below their career norms, but these 5 guys have been flat out awful. So we can talk about Andrew Jones this and Kotsay that, but you nailed it on the head above. All 5 guys above are part of the core of this team and they have all been terrible. 20% of the roster. Approximately $32 million in payroll.

And I won't even get into the guys who have been scuffling but not aren't nearly as bad as the 5 listed above (ie AJ).

And to take it one step further with your point, maybe if these guys were performing, we'd see a lot less of Kotsay, Vizquel and etc. But when everyone is playing at the same level--dog doo, that forces Ozzie to through a lot of dog doo against the wall to see what sticks. If so many key guys weren't terrible then we wouldn't be in this position.

Bob

Beckham has barely played one year of professional baseball. It was unrealistic for the team to depend on him to contribute league leading numbers this year. TCQ has only been productive for one year of his baseball career. Both the offense and defense have been terrible, but their margin of error was small at the start.

WhiteSox5187
06-07-2010, 01:16 AM
Well, at the third-grade, back-of-baseball-card level: BB, H, etc. Scouts will monitor other things as well, things that have far more bearing -- scouty things, those don't need explaining.

Simply saying he has a higher value because his last X of Y outings resulted in Z is stupid.

Yea you know, scouts probably look at a hell of a lot more than what you think they look at too and I doubt they just go to baseball-reference to see if a guy is any good. I know there was at least one scout who works in the NL who thought the Sox were getting hosed in trading Ely away for Pierre, but I'm sure you have the sabrmetrics to prove that scout is wrong.

NLaloosh
06-07-2010, 04:02 AM
I believe that Jenks still has significant value as a closer now to teams that need one. I think his salary is more of a hindrance to teams than his stuff.

He still has it. He's not the most consistent closer right now but he's still fairly good.

NLaloosh
06-07-2010, 04:24 AM
Thank good ness someone gets it. As I said in an earlier post in another thread, if Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd, TCQ and Beckham play like they have in the past, this team would be a lot better.

As bad as Kotsay has been, he's not the biggest reason the team is awful. Let's start the blame with the veterans who have stuck it up the mose. See above. Beckham, while considered a veteran, has a limited sample size to be judged, but what's the excuse for the other guys.

And it's one thing for guys to be struggling below their career norms, but these 5 guys have been flat out awful. So we can talk about Andrew Jones this and Kotsay that, but you nailed it on the head above. All 5 guys above are part of the core of this team and they have all been terrible. 20% of the roster. Approximately $32 million in payroll.

And I won't even get into the guys who have been scuffling but not aren't nearly as bad as the 5 listed above (ie AJ).

And to take it one step further with your point, maybe if these guys were performing, we'd see a lot less of Kotsay, Vizquel and etc. But when everyone is playing at the same level--dog doo, that forces Ozzie to through a lot of dog doo against the wall to see what sticks. If so many key guys weren't terrible then we wouldn't be in this position.

Bob


NO, YOU, don't get it.

All anyone has to do is look around baseball and see about 15 players that the White Sox have gotten rid of in the last couple of years that are EXCELLING with other teams!

And, coincidentally, a bunch of "talented" players on the White Sox are suddenly all playing badly at the same time!

What does that tell you? Why do the same players play well for other organizations yet they come here and play like turds ?

Why do the Sox have one star talent right now to show for their last 10 drafts and he's been next to worthless in his second year ?

Is their anyone that believes that Gordon Beckham would have a disastrous second season in the big leagues if he had been drafted by the Minnesota Twins ?

This is why this organization is going nowhere until it is turned completely upside down from top to bottom!

Craig Grebeck
06-07-2010, 06:35 AM
Yea you know, scouts probably look at a hell of a lot more than what you think they look at too and I doubt they just go to baseball-reference to see if a guy is any good. I know there was at least one scout who works in the NL who thought the Sox were getting hosed in trading Ely away for Pierre, but I'm sure you have the sabrmetrics to prove that scout is wrong.
Haha. Read my post again. I'm saying that scouts monitor mechanics, pitch speed, pitch quality, etc. Those things matter more in a prospective acquisition than what jabrch is getting at, obviously.

Christ. Read the ****ing post next time.

Edit: also, what would make you think that there would be sabermetrics in Juan Pierre's favor? He's got a sub-.600 OPS, he's been horrendous with the bat. He's been great defensively, though.

jabrch
06-07-2010, 07:00 AM
NO, YOU, don't get it.

All anyone has to do is look around baseball and see about 15 players that the White Sox have gotten rid of in the last couple of years that are EXCELLING with other teams!

And, coincidentally, a bunch of "talented" players on the White Sox are suddenly all playing badly at the same time!

What does that tell you? Why do the same players play well for other organizations yet they come here and play like turds ?

Why do the Sox have one star talent right now to show for their last 10 drafts and he's been next to worthless in his second year ?

Is their anyone that believes that Gordon Beckham would have a disastrous second season in the big leagues if he had been drafted by the Minnesota Twins ?

This is why this organization is going nowhere until it is turned completely upside down from top to bottom!

That's an opinion. There is evidence that it is a wrong opinion.

Hitmen77
06-07-2010, 07:59 AM
Was there anyone on this board that thought we were sending a potential ROY candidate to LA in Jon Ely? NO

Wow, you really think that the bar for what Kenny Williams and his scouts know about our prospects should be equal to what posters on WSI know. :o:

Just because no one on WSI thought Ely was going to be a ROY candidate in LA takes Sox management off the hook for trading him? Wow.

I believe the Teahen extension just took him through his arbitration years, so it eliminated the need to deal with arbitration.So? Just because someone is arbitration eligible doesn't mean a team needs to lock him up for 3 yrs/$14 million.

dwalteroo
06-10-2010, 09:30 AM
Supposedly the Cards are looking for pitching. Maybe Mark's dream will come true:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/cardinals-looking-for-starting-pitching.html

I have no idea who they have to trade, but Buehrle would be pretty great in the NL.

cws05champ
06-10-2010, 09:55 AM
Supposedly the Cards are looking for pitching. Maybe Mark's dream will come true:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/cardinals-looking-for-starting-pitching.html

I have no idea who they have to trade, but Buehrle would be pretty great in the NL.

They would not be able to take on Buehrle's salary. Freddy Garcia seems like more of fit there. He has been great outside of two starts, and seems like a typical Cardinals pick up of a crafty veteran for the back end of the rotation.

Huisj
06-10-2010, 12:44 PM
Peavy now says he'd rather be traded than go through a rebuilding process? Hey, Jake, did you realize you're a big part of the reason this team is where it's at? If you were 8-3 with a 3.00 ERA and the team around you sucked, that would be one thing, but with your 6.00 ERA and $45 million contract or whatever, I don't think you look all that appealing to anyone, and it doesn't exactly put you in a spot where you can start mouthing off about wanting a trade.

asindc
06-10-2010, 12:46 PM
Peavy now says he'd rather be traded than go through a rebuilding process? Hey, Jake, did you realize you're a big part of the reason this team is where it's at? If you were 8-3 with a 3.00 ERA and the team around you sucked, that would be one thing, but with your 6.00 ERA and $45 million contract or whatever, I don't think you look all that appealing to anyone, and it doesn't exactly put you in a spot where you can start mouthing off about wanting a trade.

I haven't been among those who have ragged on Peavy up to this point, but if that is what he said then he should shut the **** up and start pitching as well as he said he would when he signed his contract.

Huisj
06-10-2010, 12:52 PM
I haven't been among those who have ragged on Peavy up to this point, but if that is what he said then he should shut the **** up and start pitching as well as he said he would when he signed his contract.

It's in a new post just put up on Cowley's blog on the Sun Times' website.

In Peavy's defense, his words and the headline aren't terribly consistent. He talks about thinking they can win with the Sox and wanting to win here and understanding the whole situation as far as everyone underachieving and him having a hard contract to move at this point.

Woofer
06-11-2010, 10:22 PM
Here is one of the things that drives me crazy. The Chicago media cannot wait to go negative on the White Sox. This town has sports writers who are either very busy kissing the Cubs butts, or trying to grind some ax against the Sox. You hear all this crap about White Flag trade part 5, or so and so is going to be traded because he is a free agent. How about the fighting between Williams and Guillen? Can you tell me that everything is perfect right now with management on the North Side? The Cubs get no negative press. The Cubs are in exactly the same boat as the Sox right now. Has any one of us here heard a peep about a Cubs White Flag trade being made? Derrick Lee is a free agent next year, are the Cubs going to give him away? Doubtful. Are they going to gut their team? No. Any moves that they make will be lauded as moves that make their team better. Any moves the Sox make will be called rebuilding or White Flag. This happens every time the Sox fall out of contention, and we should keep an eye on this bias.